Difference between revisions of "v0.34 Talk:Finished goods"

Latest revision as of 21:30, 3 March 2014

Mugs[edit]

Mugs are also heavier, so in my experience crafts are much more productive. How should this be reflected in the article? Dree12 02:11, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Cut Glass/Gems[edit]

in v0.31 there was a discussion about glass- and gem-crafts, the footnote to the table still "refers" to it but the link does not work. Should the discussion be moved over to the new namespace, or a small section be written in the article itself?

Crafts can be works of art?[edit]

What is "Some subtypes of crafts can be works of art (figurines, for example) on them when first built" supposed to mean?– unsigned comment by 71.190.3.225

Presumably it was intended to indicate that a figurine of your civilization's king is no more valuable than a figurine of some random goblin invader (or cheese). I replaced "works of art" with "references to historical figures" in an attempt to clarify the thought.--Loci (talk) 19:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

!!SCIENCE!! in multiples production[edit]

I've taken the time to perform some !!SCIENCE!! in regards to determining what crafts actually get the multiplication bonus.

I used DFHack 0.34.11 r3 and this script (to alter the skill level of a dwarf). My procedure was the following:

1. Created a new embark, with one of the dwarfs being a Proficient Bookkeeper (as to actually see the number of items, another being a Miner (as to have somewhere inside to work) and another a Proficient Stonecrafter.

2. Placed (using createitems) a table, a chair and a stone. The material used for all things was obsidian.

3. A Craftsdwarf's Workshop was constructed near the wagon using the stone and a small room was dug, where the bookkeeper's office would reside. After placement of the chair, the bookkeeper was assigned to it.

4. A stack of 100 stones was spawned at the center of the workshop (to minimize delays)(using create-items)

After step 4. the embark was saved. Henceforth, all trials could be made by giving a repeating order to the workshop and force-quitting DF after the trial was done. Two variables were tested, the number of different classes of stone items (Mug, Instrument, Crafts, Toys) produced by a Legendary +5 dwarf and whether the number of multiples was altered according to skill.

For the first test, the following trial results were obtained:

- Mugs: 300
- Instrument: 100
 - flutes   : 21
 - trumpets : 15
 - harps    : 21
 - drums    : 14
 - piccolos : 29
- Crafts     : 209
 - figurines : 23
 - amulets   : 34
 - scepters  : 29
 - crowns    : 24
 - rings     : 31
 - earrings  : 34
 - bracelets : 34
- Toys         : 100
 - puzzleboxes : 18
 - toy boats   : 20
 - toy hammers : 19
 - toy axes    : 22
 - mini-forges : 21

As seen, only Crafts and Mugs are produced in multiples.

I then repeated this trial, only for mugs, for decreasing levels of skill (Legendary, Accomplished, Proficient and Dabbling). Regardless of the increase in levels done by the production of the mugs, they were produced in every trial at a 3:1 ratio. The amount of experience got was also the same (12000xp), which totals 40xp per mug (or 120xp per resource). This slightly contradicts what's stated on the Experience page.

I also tested the case for Crafts and a Dabbling dwarf. The results follow:

- Crafts     : 194
 - figurines : 32
 - amulets   : 23
 - scepters  : 25
 - crowns    : 20
 - rings     : 35
 - earrings  : 25
 - bracelets : 34

Although there is some discrepancy, the results point that Crafts are produced in a 2:1 ratio. The experience given in this case was 8820xp, which does not fit the number of items produced. If going by resources, then producing 2 crafts (using 1 resource) gives around 90xp.

Also, the quality of the items produced was noted. If items are made in multiples, the quality is not. Each item gets it's own quality rating regardless of being produced in multiples, which explains the existence of 8 masterwork items out of 300.

These are my findings on the subject. I haven't tested gems or totems or any other material, but as this shows, the probability of multiples isn't increased by skill, as stated in the main page.

--Doktoro Reichard (talk) 11:30, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Nice work and a good find on skill-independence of number of crafts produced per job, but other than that, it didn't seem like you unearthed much new information here. The irregular numbers of crafts produced are very easy to explain - a job randomly generates one to three crafts per job. This would have been trivially easy to observe by ordering a few stone crafts and following the shop inventory closely (via 't'). The random one-to-three spread explains why the average is two and why it's not a clean ratio. I edited the crafts entry accordingly.

Nonetheless, a good idea to incorporate the findings into the page, which had been unclear on which items are produced in multiples and which only in singles (instruments, toys).

And i don't want to belittle your work - the research on gemcutting and cloth crafts were very thorough efforts in areas that have been largely neglected so far.

--Larix (talk) 20:53, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, think of it in this way: If I did unearth a lot of new information for something that exists for some time ago, then something would be amiss with everything. In other words, someone should have noticed something wrong. Gemcutting was actually explained in a paragraph at the Gems page, but I only remembered to check it after the testing. The main reason why I did all this was to investigate the possibility of multiples production (which is a real and useful property) that wasn't explained or exemplified at the time when I first researched this.

I'll probably complete the research anytime in the near future (for completeness) but my feeling is that there will not be that big differences between the remaining item classes.--Doktoro Reichard (talk) 00:57, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Glass and Gem Crafts[edit]

I've done some more research to a topic that puzzled me: glass and gem crafts. The page points to the v0.31.25 talk page, which itself I felt it didn't provide a good enough explanation. Using a setup similar to the above (with the addition I also used fastdwarf 2 1 to speed up the process). I've tested all varieties of glass, tested whether skill affects production and also tested gems (in this case, only Ruby and Prase were tested). 1000 items were used in each trial. The results are as follows:

      Item      | Gem | L.Gem |       Crafts       | Total
                |     |       |f |a |s |c |r |e |b |
----------------+-----+-------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+------
Green Glass     | 658 |  197  |26|23|24|10|24|21|17| 1000
Clear Glass     | 691 |  185  |15|18|23|20|14|17|17| 1000
Crystal Glass   | 690 |  178  |18|17|22|26|27|13|9 | 1000
----------------+-----+-------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+------
Gr. Glass (Dab.)| 651 |  212  |20|23|22|28|14|15|15| 1000
----------------+-----+-------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+------
Ruby            | 962 |  37   |0 |1 |0 |0 |0 |0 |0 | 1000
Prase           | 954 |  44   |0 |1 |1 |0 |0 |0 |0 | 1000

Observing the data retrieved from the trials, the following can be concluded:

1. Raw Glass has a 65-70% chance to be cut to a Gem, 20-15% to be cut into a Large Gem and a 10-15% to be cut into a Craft. 2. Experience has no effect on the distribution. 3. Raw Gems has a 95% chance to be cut to a Gem and a 5% chance to be cut into a Large Gem. The results given by the Crafts production are too residual to be considered (i.e. the probability of a craft appearing is less than 1%.--Doktoro Reichard (talk) 14:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

It seems Quietust has done some code spelunking and found the correct ratios, although my research is slightly off, which could be explained by the difference in versions. Awkwardly, it is written at the Gems page.--Doktoro Reichard (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I've done some more research and increased the sample size to 10000 items, the results follow:

      Item      | Gem | L.Gem |           Crafts          | Total
                |     |       | f | a | s | c | r | e | b |
----------------+-----+-------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+------
Green Glass     | 6608|  2027 |188|199|198|188|205|184|203| 10000
Morion          | 9489|  441  |  7| 10| 15| 12| 10|  4| 12| 10000

Treating the results we get roughly the same data that's stated at the Gems page. It strikes me as odd that this page didn't have any relationship whatsoever with the accurate information existing in the wiki... This being said, I'm updating the post with this information and also quoting it here:

Exactly 5% of all rough gems will be cut into a single craft or large gem (with 1 craft for every 8 large gems), and the same occurs with raw glass (but with different ratios - 33% of all jobs, producing 11 crafts for every 16 large gems).
—Quietust, Gems page

--Doktoro Reichard (talk) 21:55, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Nice work! Thanks for investing the time to clarify the creation of gem crafts.--Loci (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Cloth, Silk and Yarn Crafts[edit]

Done more research, yet again, this time on the cloth/silk/yarn crafts. The sample size was 1000. Here are the results.

Items                 |           Crafts          | Total
                      | f | a | s | c | r | e | b |
----------------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+------
SPIDER_CAVE:SILK      | 0 |661| 0 | 0 | 0 |700|657| 2018
GRASS_TAIL_PIG:THREAD | 0 |687| 0 | 0 | 0 |674|633| 1994
ALPACA:HAIR           |308|289|291|287|272|279|278| 2004
TROLL:HAIR            |294|290|322|280|283|275|301| 2045
FORGOTTEN_BEAST_1:SILK| 0 |665| 0 | 0 | 0 |663|619| 1947

It struck me as odd that only Yarn can be produced into the full range of craft products. Hence I devised 2 more tests. The TROLL:HAIR test was also done with the Clothier at 0 experience.

All things considered, here are the conclusions:

All cloth-based crafts are produced in a more-or-less 2:1 ratio with the resources provided.
Silk and Thread crafts can only be Amulets, Earrings and Bracelets. The percentage of any being crafted is 1/3.
All possible crafts can be made with Yarn. The percentage of any being crafted is 1/7.
Skill has no influence in the amount of multiples. Period. Craftsdwarves just gain experience too fast for any decrease in amount to be noticeable.

Without digging in the code I can't say for sure, but I would say that each individual item shares a similar mechanic to the Melting process (where item percentages are stored in the workshop). It would explain the discrepancies the crafs' production shows.--Doktoro Reichard (talk) 11:42, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Hair/wool yarn is the only material with the [ITEMS_HARD] tag. The others have [ITEMS_SOFT], which removes scepters, crowns, rings and figurines from the list of eligible crafts. A material without any valid tags like these defaults to producing large gems, of all things. --AVK (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Ceramic and Metal Crafts[edit]

Both Ceramic and Metal crafts have been found to follow on the rules previously determined by all other materials, so this is a follow-up. The results are as follows.

Ceramics[edit]

Items       |           Crafts          | Total
            | f | a | s | c | r | e | b |
------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+------
Earthenware |297|283|288|300|308|282|266| 2024
Stoneware   |287|262|287|277|272|305|309| 1999
Porcelain   |281|279|270|263|278|301|263| 1935

Metals[edit]

Items      |           Crafts          | Total
           | f | a | s | c | r | e | b |
-----------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+------
Gold       |318|285|297|259|285|295|277| 2016
Steel      |264|280|293|297|270|308|285| 1997
Adamantine |274|271|288|276|301|308|300| 2018

Items      |    Instruments    | Total
           | f | t | h | d | p |
-----------+---+---+---+---+---+------
Gold       |190|203|202|206|199| 1000
Steel      |219|183|185|199|214| 1000
Adamantine |170|181|212|201|236| 1000

Items      |        Toys       | Total
           | p | b | h | a | f |
-----------+---+---+---+---+---+------
Gold       |190|241|176|200|193| 1000
Steel      |197|192|185|215|211| 1000
Adamantine |197|219|199|172|213| 1000

3000 Goblets were produced per each type of metal.

--Doktoro Reichard (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2014 (UTC)