User:Corona688

2015-04-24T16:27:44Z

Corona688:

User:Corona688

2015-04-24T16:01:29Z

Corona688: /* Hex Plates */

User:Corona688

2015-04-24T15:59:53Z

Corona688:

2010-04-27T14:01:42Z

Corona688: /* How about summary and individual pages? */

== From [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Centralized Discussion|DFW:Centralized Discussion]] ==
:Will any articles be pruned away or merged? In the jump from 40D to v31 a lot of articles that used to be served well by tables seem to have become their own articles, which really clutters the place up and scatters information all over unfindably. Stones, ores, and gems are the most obvious, they really only need three tables instead of hundreds of articles. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 19:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
::Gems are definitely going to have to be consolidated into their own article. Ores and other valuable stones have too much relevant information to stuff in a table, although the worthless stuff like microcline or slate should definitely be relegated to Table Land (presumably we'd have a Stones page, with extra pages for stuff like obsidian or hematite). I think following the example of articles from 40d is a good idea. -- 114.77.43.223
:::What is there to know about Hematite except what it makes and where it's found? What makes it so useful is the metal, which is better described in the Iron page. Seems perfect for a table to me, alongside the myriad other ores that get mined and smelted exactly the same way. Obsidian on the other hand has a fairly unique property that wouldn't be well-described in the valuable stones table alone. --[[Special:Contributions/71.17.242.69|71.17.242.69]] 06:28, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree that ores/stones/gems should be in combined articles. I think I could work on something like this today. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] ([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]]) 16:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
:Minerals having their own pages is fine with me. There's a bit of information that can be included on the odd page as well as values, pictures and a wikipedia link. Time is better spent elsewhere. One area that could use some looking into is which material is best for each weapon on the weapons article. It currently doesn't have any information on this at all. [[User:Richards|Richards]] 16:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
::What are minerals? *SCNR* --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 19:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
::The "best material" thing is likely to be in flux for some time until Toady gets the damage calculations and so on working. Eventually I'd expect to see something like this in the weapon articles though, naturally. [[User:Oddtwang of Dork|Oddtwang of Dork]] 12:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Generally I don't think "stubs" are a bad thing. Fish cleaner, fishery and fish cleaning may be put in one article+2 redirects, but there are other topics where there is not much to say, and that's just fine, too. With barely 1000 articles it is also rather silly to talk of clutter. How does Wikipedia manage then? Making ''additional'' guides and summarizations is of course useful (and linking to them).
::Stubs that stay stubs are a bad thing. They bury searches in useless results. Wikipedia does not have the problem of filling in hundreds of EMPTY articles following a premade structure that may no longer be relevant or even sensible. And if they're staying stubs, really, they don't deserve a page. --[[Special:Contributions/71.17.241.117|71.17.241.117]] 01:09, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Er, that was me. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 01:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure why microcline should have it's own article..actually, it should. What I - and a lot of players? - like to do is dig down, find a new stone, look it up. Not just if it's valuable, but also in what layers it appears and if its worth to dig through it into the base layer that may contain interesting or specific stuff. So even when i see that microcline really is everywhere i may decide to not dig on there when I'm looking for, say, platinum. In any case I didn't like the way the table for "generic" stone was organized in the 40d space. As for gems I think we should have both. An article for every gem so i can just check it's value when I find it (before I mine it) without needing the browser search function to find it in a pages-long table, but a table too so we have a central place where one can compare gems with each other. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 19:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
:A table would accomplish all that a lot better than an eternally empty stub or a fancy illustration of microcline would. Why couldn't it have a column for value? --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 01:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
::I'd also add that when you did a search for, say, Diamond, it would bring you to /whatever/page#Diamond but for some reason not forward you to Diamond in the page. That could probably be fixed, so the search would work for you too. --[[Special:Contributions/71.17.241.117|71.17.241.117]] 03:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
:::That'll be because there's no heading "Diamond" on the Gem page, so the #Diamond part of the URL is effectively discarded. It'd be great if it could jump you to the right part of the table (i.e. where you end up when you hit Ctrl-F and type it in again) but I suspect that's a non-trivial job. [[User:Oddtwang of Dork|Oddtwang of Dork]] 12:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
::Are we clear on the definition of the word 'stub' here? If all there is to say about, say, granite is captured by the table (it's a low-value layer stone, these are its melting & boiling points, whatever) then does the fact that there isn't much text to go with it actually matter? The pictures from Commons and real-world info are nice (and don't fit into a table, though links to WP do of course) but they don't add game value to the article.
::I think I just convinced myself I ike having both pages and tables. [[User:Oddtwang of Dork|Oddtwang of Dork]] 12:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

By all means, create your giant tables and combined articles. Nobody will be against more useful content. However, please don't destroy the already existing stone and gem pages. If you really want them gone, we can discuss it ''after'' you've made a suitable replacement. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 04:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
: Well of course we'd want to replace them with a more useful resource before we remove them, and I also see the potential value in having specific pages, and also table pages. So I might start working on that [[DF2010:Ore]] / [[DF2010:Gems]] / [[DF2010:Stone]] [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] ([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]]) 13:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Lumping everything into a table just means more work for a new player to find the information they are looking for. Sure, it seems obvious to anyone that's played for more than a day that microcline is pretty but worthless, but new players shouldn't be forced to scroll through potentially confusing tables to find what they want. But big tables DO have value players both new and old, so having BOTH mega-tables and individual pages is the best solution, in my opinion. The individual pages should however have very clear links to the main stone/gem/ore/etc. pages, plus any information that may be unique to that object. Don't make it hard on newcomers just to "tidy things up" or whatever. A wiki is about getting the relevant information to the user, and if the user wants to know about microcline, it should be as simple as typing it into the box. (on an unrelated note, I apparently don't understand talk pages? why isn't mine signed like everyone elses?)
:I don't see how having the individual pages forwarding to these, quiet small really, tables would make it harder to find information. If anything it would be easier to find similar types of that item or other things in the same layer. The signature is done if you type ~ ~ ~ ~ without the spaces and is generally prefixed with a -- like so --[[User:Shades|Shades]] 14:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
::You really think this [[40d:Stone]] is a good way of presenting information, especially to new players? Particularly if they just struck, um, orthoclase? Well obviously you do, and other editors too. Well, I don't. [[40d:The Non-Dwarf's Guide to Rock]] is better, but still far from clearly laid out, complete and easily digested. This is not the editors fault, it's just too much info for a table (so either info is missing or it's bloated). (I ''do'' think, though, that both articles are a valuable ''addition'' to the wiki) If I enter orthoclase, I want info on orthoclase. I don't want to read 4 pages and then find orthoclase on the 5th, if I'm patient and lucky, and ''then'' learn less than from an "empty" "stub" like [[40d:Kimberlite]]. Lets make this wiki usable for all players? --[[User:Old Ancient|Old Ancient]] 15:23, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
:::2 more things:

:::1) stubs: A WP stub is an article that does not contain ''enough'' info or might not even merit an article at all. This does not apply here. The possible lemmata are very limited and this will always be a really small wiki. A lemma is relevant if it is a game term. If there is not much to say about it, then the player has already gained enough from knowing ''that''. Short articles are '''good''' if they are complete.
:::2) "clutter": Only auditors[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditors_of_Reality] even perceive that. Not users. We have all the (name-)space in the world. I can imagine topics where info can be too fragmented if an overview article is missing, but have a look at how it's not trivial to even make clear what the [[40d:Restraint]] article is actually about; chains, ropes and restraints (AKA "Huh, why have i been redirected here??"). --[[User:Old Ancient|Old Ancient]] 15:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Right now, when the wiki's just an empty skeleton, users can perceive the clutter quite clearly. And the bigger the skeleton, the more work there is to do. Pages can always be split out later if need be, but consolidation needs to happen now if ever. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 06:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

== How about summary and individual pages? ==

So it seems like we have a lot of points about the value of individual pages, as well as the value of "combined" pages. How about then we take each article that would apply to: [[DF2010:Ore]] / [[DF2010:Gems]] / [[DF2010:Stone]] and put a single line at the top saying something to the effect of:
:''To view details on all <ore/gem/stones> see here''.
I think this gives value to users who want to look up a specific item, and also to users who want to see similar items. Thoughts? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] ([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]]) 16:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
:That seems to be the way many people, myself included, are leaning. --[[User:Oddtwang of Dork|Oddtwang of Dork]] 17:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
:Though should 'Gems' not be singular for consistency? --[[User:Oddtwang of Dork|Oddtwang of Dork]] 17:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
::I think this would be the way to go. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 20:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
::Details details ;). Yes, it should. Let's wait for some more comments on this. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] ([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]]) 01:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:I'm not sold on the value of individual pages. Particularly when most of them aren't and won't ever be filled with anything but raws info, except the ones people have helpfully added spiffy pictures to. Most of the arguments '''against''' tables here are arguments against ugly table arrangements, not tables in general. If we put them in a table -- a '''good table''' with relevant information as one mineral per row, properly fast-forwarded to by the search -- it will be every bit as relevant and informative as the individual article without the search spam. Having both essentially doubles the work and threatens to make the articles go out of sync with each other. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 06:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
::Hard to get them out of sync if the data's pulled from the raws, I'd say. As far as I can see from the stone lookup template the raws in question are being stored somewhere centrally anyhow, so they should always be equal. -- [[User:Oddtwang of Dork|Oddtwang of Dork]] 09:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::If the raws are being stored centrally, there's even less reason to have the separate pages -- they perform no function but repeating data stored elsewhere. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 14:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

: I think, having both (table AND individual pages) would be the best solution. Reasons are the same already listed above. New players type hematite in the search and want to find infos about hematite! Looking a gigantic table with tons of info is to much for a little starting dwarf. By the way i think that all infromation about the stones can't be listed in a single table --[[User:Used|Used]] 10:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

::Exactly. It isn't feasible to pack all of the information about every stone into one table. There isn't any danger of the pages being destroyed as long as nobody tries it while there's no good replacement for them. This is because you will never get to the point where even the creator of such a table thinks it's a good replacement. But please, carry on discussing what would be good or bad to do if you were ever handed one. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::It's completely viable to pack the vast majority of stones into a table. The only relevant info for the vast majority of stones is "grey, sedimentary, sheets, melts at 13000", why have pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of this? Only the vanishingly few with any characteristics whatsoever deserve their own pages. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 13:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Article Consolidation

2010-04-11T15:41:04Z

Corona688:

{{av}}
{{human}}
Sliver Barb is a plant that can be brewed into [[gutter cruor]], a low-value alcohol, or [[milled]] into black [[dye|sliver dye]], a high-value dye. It only grows in [[wet]] [[evil]] areas, like an evil [[marsh]]. Since worldgen dwarves never live in these areas, your dwarven [[civilization]] won't have seeds for it; to get this plant your dwarves will need to brave the [[Beak Dog|beak dogs]] and pull it from the earth yourself.