Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

40d Talk:Exploit

2010-02-09T14:19:31Z

EvilTwin: /* Deadly bridges */

== Deadly bridges ==

As far as I recall megabeasts can't be killed with bridge, and they destroy it when it tries to smash them. Article does state that bridge can destroy everything. --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 00:24, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

:Also I often hear that demons are not affected by the bridge and that it is destroyed if it lowers on top of them. We need some verification on this.--[[User:Richards|Richards]] 00:57, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

::I ''think'' I accidentally atomsmashed an [[Elf]] who was standing in one of the squares the bridge ''occupies'' when it's "up". Can anyone else verify? I'll test it again with a few useless dwarves later. --[[User:Arcalane|Arcalane]] 10:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

:::That's right, a bridge can smash things that way, too... Forgetting this fact caused me to kill a peasant in my current fort. --[[User:EvilTwin|EvilTwin]] 14:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

== Quantum stockpiles ==
[[User:GreyMario|GreyMario]] wrote an exploit about Siege engines that doesn't makes much sense. We need someone to expand it.--[[User:Richards|Richards]] 01:09, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

You fire the stone into the wall, which then falls into the trench. As the trench is limited in space, stones start piling up. (Apparently, catapults are no good at doing what they were historically used for - destroying walls... And they fire in flat trajectories - i would have honestly expected stones to travel up z-levels - but having tested catapults with roofs over them, they work, which i find silly but what the heck...). Note that this is only a quantum stockpile for stone, as opposed to dump, which is much more versatile, but there's also no need to reclaim. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 02:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

:Thanks. I'll add that in.--[[User:Richards|Richards]] 02:37, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

::Well I guess eventually there will be a limit of how many items can be on a specific square... but for the moment there can be an infinite number of items no any square. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

: Another quantum stockpile can be achieved through dwarves shifting stones off of where you build a workshop, onto one tile. I've had piles of several hundred raw rocks siting on one square thanks to some nice tricks.

I'm trying to use the Quantum Stockpile technique to toss everything from my wagon to a single tile, but the Dwarves won't haul anything I've marked for dumping! I've made sure that nothing is forbidden, and the Dwarves all haul Refuse/Stone/Wood etc... but they won't move. --[[User:Anfini|Anfini]] 00:55, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:Ha! Nevermind, fixed it myself. I didn't realize DF toggled "Dwarves ignore Refuse from outside" by default. --[[User:Anfini|Anfini]] 00:58, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Ideological point of views ==

Given the endless discussions on the net on what is considered or not cheating (as opposed to modding, or fair use of game mechanics, etc.), I suggest being extra careful of not asserting what is or what is not [[cheating]].

Exploits are distinct from cheating because ...

Some would say

Exploits are a distinct form of cheating because ...

Plus, the justification
Whether a player chooses to make use of an exploit or not depends on their personal taste;
given that Dwarf Fortress is a single-player game, no one is actually harmed when you use an exploit.

equally applies to all forms of cheating (or non-cheating).

I would also stress that DF is currently more of a sandbox than a game with difficult goals, and that players boast more about their devious schemes and grand projects than about ''winning''.

--[[User:Aykavil|Aykavil]] 05:20, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

:Don't forget, many cheaters 'cheat' because they want to find out how particular functions work or to 'test out theories'. Then of course there's the people who cheat to simply save time. These are different from the people who would cheat just for 'kicks'. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 05:31, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
:I would say that it's indeed true that exploits are distinct from cheating. Cheating in a game involves breaking the rules; in a computer game, the program itself is "the rules" that one plays by. In fact, in some cases the "exploits" are unavoidable (such as children being legendary in six or more skills before they reach adulthood).

:It's like in gridiron football, if the ball carrier goes out of bounds the clock stops. This can be considered an exploitation of the rules to keep time from running out in the half, but it certainly isn't cheating.--[[User:Gandalf the Dwarf (No, really! Look it up!)|Gandalf the Dwarf (No, really! Look it up!)]] 14:01, 13 November 2008 (EST)

::My attitude toward such things generally revolves around what I imagine the creators of the game intended. In Stronghold 2, for example. I am certain that the creators did not intend players to create gigantic stacks of siege engines coexisting ipon a single point, but last I saw it was the 'best' strategy. That upset me. But it doesn't upset me when someone exploits DF or 'mangles' it with modding. There is very little a player can do to subvert Toady's intent with this game, even with modding, because it's more than just a fuedal economy/fortress defense simulation. I'm all for rules and restrictions in bloodline games, though--cheating and exploitation can be fun, but they almost always ruin stories and make the game less challenging. --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 15:36, 13 November 2008 (EST)

== Legendary Wrestler (Adventure) ==

I found a bug in Adventure mode that could be quite readily exploited. I wasn't sure if I just plonked it on the page, or chucked it here, so I'm just putting it here for now.

When strangling anything, you get 10xp for every 'choke'. If you hold down the directional button towards the creature, it will still get choked, but time will no pass, and the creature will never die. By placing something heavy(ish) on your keyboard, you can pretty much leave your adventurer to strangle for about 10 minutes, while you go get a drink. You come back, press Z to check your status, and, whadya know, you are now a Legendary Wrestler.

For reference, I use Windows XP. Don't know if that helps at all.

Thanks, Doom.

==Infinite Power Not An Exploit==
No really. I know it makes no physical sense, but as there is little good way to create power generation on most maps otherwise, and power can be used for all sorts of fun projects, the possibility of creating a battery anywhere you need it makes all sorts of fun things possible. I also doubt implementing a realistic physics model of energy is at all possible, much less sensical in a game which allows productive underground farming - which is honestly a far more serious violation of conservation of energy than waterwheel batteries. Doesn't work like reality does not imply it isn't intended or its exploitive of the system. The fact that the easy availability of power leads to more fun projects strongly argues it is a feature, not an exploit. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 17:29, 12 December 2008 (EST)

The line between Exploit and Feature is entirely subjective. The fact that a significant player population considers something an exploit makes it so, I would think. It's not like "exploit" in this sense is a pejorative term. --[[User:Erom|Erom]] 14:58, 17 December 2008 (EST)

:Seeing as it violates fairly basic laws of physics (unlike underground farming, what with fungi not requiring sunlight), I'd say that the infinite power thing is as much of an exploit as any other mechanism that generates an arbitrary amount of an otherwise-limited resource. You are, after all, exploiting the gaps in the game's physics engine. This isn't explicitly a bad thing, though; this game would be far less [[fun]] if it didn't have any hilarious bugs. Since there's no real goal of the game except to do something interesting or amusing before everything dies when your magma-pumping system suffers a mechanical failure and spews lava into the sleeping quarters, I don't really see any particular grounds to not take advantage of these holes in reality. As long as you don't go "hey, look, I built an entire fortress out of adamantine" without telling people that you turned your smelters into molecular forges that produce thousands of wafers from, say, sand, it's fine. Some people want to challenge themselves and do it the "right" way, others want to challenge themselves and do it the "weird" way, and both are equally valid approaches. After all, there are plenty of people who make "anti-walkthroughs" for games which involve bending the game in question into strange ten-dimensional shapes whilst still getting to the end, and that's just as fun as doing it properly. Maybe it'll get fixed, but in the meantime feel free to dig out the bottom of the mountain and hold up a million tonnes of rock with a single glass pillar, or channel your magma with wooden walls. The exploits mentioned in these paragraphs may or may not have been performed by the author. No responsibility is accepted for attempting to perform said exploits. [[Catsplosion#Thermonuclear_catsplosion|Do not attempt to modify cats to produce temperatures exceeding 16939.81667 degrees Kelvin.]]--[[User:Quil|Quil]] 15:37, 17 December 2008 (EST)
::Productive underground farming is a violation of the laws of physics. Specifically conservation of energy. Farming generally works because plants turn sunlight into energy. You're right, fungi don't do this. However, fungi turn dead stuff into energy - a rather inefficient process. Growing fungi in solid rock, no matter how wet, shouldn't do anything, and fungal farms should require massive amounts of fertilizer. (Its not like people don't farm mushrooms today). I also don't think Quarry Bush, Sweet Pods, or Cave Wheat are fungi at all, and the only one I know that is would be Plump Helmet.
::Regardless, underground farming in the game produces energy from nothing. I consider this a more severe physics violation than perpetual motion machines, made more egregious because it doesn't actually lead to fun like Rube Goldberg devices.
::Finally, exploit technically means its not intended to occur. Violating the laws of physics does not imply game exploit if those violations are intended. Obviously underground farming is intended, so despite being a severe violation of conservation of energy its not actually an exploit. Similarly, arbitrary power seems perfectly intended by the way power works in the game. Exploits are not determined by vote, they are determined by the designer's intention - so the only vote that counts here would by ToadyOne's.
::--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 16:02, 17 December 2008 (EST)
:::''should require massive amounts of fertilizer''
:::Where do you think your dwarves do their business? --[[User:Juckto|juckto]] 16:06, 17 December 2008 (EST)

::::This should have diminishing returns. Eat food, body removes energy, expel remaining mass which contains some amount of energy to be used. If you feed your dwarves with nothing but farming (perfectly possible in game) you should be faced with diminishing yields as consumption pulls energy out of the system which then gets used for activities (so no, disposing of the dead as fertilizer does not solve the problem). Ie, a sealed fortress with no access to the surface should be faced with an ever-decreasing energy budget, and thus ever-decreasing food production. Instead, in-game you have exponentially increasing potential food production, which is crazy since there is no outside energy input. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 16:44, 17 December 2008 (EST)

:::::On the other hand, DF is semi-mythical, and the concept of dwarves maintaining underground farms that work as well for them as above-ground farms work for humans is a great game element, even if it does not match what exists in our world.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 17:21, 17 December 2008 (EST)

::::::Why do the same arguments not also support arbitrary physical power if arbitrary energy is allowed otherwise? Its the same thing - both violate conservation of energy. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 17:26, 17 December 2008 (EST)

::::::If things didn't grow in dark, seemingly nutrientless places, preparing petri dishes would be far, far easier. As it is, since things become "muddy" when irrigated, presumably a suitable layer of fertile silt is being deposited on the surface of the rock to grow mythical subterranean plants that thrive well enough to be a suitable crop. There is, however, a subtle difference between magical crops and magical water, in that one is a somewhat hand-waved but ultimately convenient mechanism for growing crops, along the same lines as the massive time acceleration and strange Dwarven sleeping habits, while the other is a device that has no actual, functioning, real-world equivalent and is instead a quirk of the simulation, similar to, say, the deadly !![[fire imp]] fat!! that is produced by strange object property inheritance. It's essentially the same thing as opening up the reaction_standard.txt file and removing the requirement for fuel and adamantine threads from the adamantine production reaction, which happens to give you as much adamantine as you like straight from your smelter. The developer left the raws in simple text format, so he must have intended for people to do that, surely?
::::::Really, though, I don't see the need to argue about this. It's not like the Exploit Police are going to come and arrest people for building perpetual motion machines, nor are they going to arrest me for making a species that can rip people to pieces with their bare hands and wield +adamantine rocket launcher+s in both hands.--[[User:Quil|Quil]] 17:51, 17 December 2008 (EST)

:If we can agree that Toady did not intend for perpetual motion machines to be possible, then we can safely classify this as an exploit. If we can't, I'm sure there is a thread with comments from him on the issue around the forums somewhere. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:17, 17 December 2008 (EST)

::''Why'' does any of this matter? Perpetual motion can be done, we document it. Make use of it if you like, don't if you don't.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 23:47, 17 December 2008 (EST)

:::Agreed with [[User:Maximus|Maximus]], we're arguing over a classification that simply isn't included in the scope of the wiki. Whether it's classified as an exploit or not, the ability to create power via perpetual motion exists and has been documented; therefor, it deserves a place in the wiki. Let's just leave it where it is and agree that if someone doesn't personally think it's an exploit, then it's not an exploit for them. --[[User:LucienSadi|LucienSadi]] 05:28, 18 December 2008 (EST)
::::Not included in the scope of the wiki?? Guilty conscience much? Rest at ease, the exploit page isn't finger-wagging as much an instruction manual XD Of course it's relevant, there's things even Toady considers an exploit(and plans to remove). As for mushrooms, that's obviously as Toady intended it, not an unintended side-effect of something else gone wrong. That is what makes things an exploit or not, a game with dwarves and dragons is fairly fantastic in the first place. Sheesh. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 09:57, 18 December 2008 (EST)
:::Of course it's included in the scope of the wiki. Look at the title of the talk page. Talk:Exploit. If it's an exploit, we include it on the exploit page. If it's not, we include it somewhere else. In any case, it shows up somewhere. Don't get so excited over little things :) [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 06:27, 18 December 2008 (EST)

== Intricate artifacts ==

You seem to be certain that this exploit doesn't work, but I can't imagine that you've actually tried it correctly, since I have an example that confirms it: {{spoil small|[[image:Soundedmurders.png]]}}.
[[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 17:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

: Indeed i tried to confirm it with my 2 last artifacts (today) and it didn't work. At what precise moment did you unforbid the items? Did they all show up as tasked with 't'? Have you yourself reproduced it? What version do you use? I know there ''is'' a bug that produces such artifacts but that one can't be reliably reproduced AFAIK. --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 17:57, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
::Ah - I think i see how it would work - assuming he wants 3 stones, 1 is tasked. Now I unforbid 5 other present stones at once and they will all be tasked? If it should work like that, i probably haven't tried that. --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 18:03, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
:The retasking is done only when the moody dwarf picks up or delivers new materials. In your example the first three stones that he picked up would be retasked, but the fourth and fifth would not because he already has three stones that were before them. So he would use a total of 4 stones. If you wanted him to use all of them you need to unforbid the latest three, wait for them to get tasked, then unforbid the first two.
The example is one I generated in {{version|0.28.181.40d}}. It shouldn't be any different in d# versions, though, since there aren't any logic updates. Mayday, on the other hand; I have no clue how far his changes have reached. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 18:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
:::So does this only work if the dwarf requires more than one item of a type? --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 12:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
::::You can pull it off if they only want one, but it will be a lot more work on your part. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I think this is more complicated than Donut realizes, or else he just hasn't explained it thoroughly. I finally got this method to work, with a caveat. Here's how I did it: First, my dwarf collected the item I wanted extras of last (I was hoping to make a bone hammer, and he only got one bone, and I wanted more bone) so I forbade one of the 3 cave lobster shells he'd collected. I alternated forbidding the goblin bones (no other kind for a war hammer!) and the lobster shells until I had 4 stacks of goblin bones. Then, I forbade a second lobster shell, so he could collect one and return it to the shop without starting work. But I found I had to actually let him pick up the last shell (the last item to be picked up before construction would start) before it would re-task the unforbidden goblin bones, then I had to forbid the latest tasked lobster shell before he returned with the un-tasked one (to keep him from beginning construction). Then I had to wait until he picked up the next shell, etc. Note for clarity's sake that I had to unforbid only one stack of bone at a time, starting from the bottom (most recently collected) stack up to the oldest/top stack. Presumable, according to what Donut says, you can unforbid as many at a time as are queued for inclusion originally - I could only do one at a time because he originally only wanted one.
In this particular case, he ended up using the lobster shell for the base of the construction, which was NOT what I wanted, so I'll have to figure something else out... But I thought I'd post this just because I had such trouble getting it to work. From my other experience I believe that the last item to be forbidden/unforbidden tends to end up being the 'base' material, so I actually don't think you can use this method (the way I did it) for the material you want to be the base for the item; however, in this particular case I've found that cave lobster shell was the original base item (which disappoints me greatly) so I can't say this for sure.

==Sweet pods, winter, and underground==

What exactly are the exploits involving those items? I couldn't find any information on how you can exploit the process of turning sweet pods into dwarven syrup instead of sugar, exploit what I'm assuming is referring to the thought to be bug where a farm plot does not check if a plant can be grown next season if it is late winter (not tested for current version), or how you can trick a subterranean farm plot into growing above ground plants.

I'm not saying there aren't exploits involving those, just curious as to ''what'' the exploits are. --[[User:Elvang|Elvang]] 04:34, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

:Err, well, no; intentionally producing only syrup as such is an exploit since it gives 5 times the amount and thus value compared to sugar - and that can't be what Toady intends, right? right? Also it is obviously an oversight on Toady's part that you can grow any surface plants all year, especially in winter. So you shouldn't do it just because you can. And for underground, well seriously, we all know that anything except mushrooms needs sunlight so if you plant smth else than plumps you are, again, exploiting, cos obviously Toady is going to change that soon..as you may have figured, ''I'' don't consider any of those exploits, but people have argued for it. --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 15:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
::I gotta disagree with the underground plants thing - for all we know dwarves just have a lot more names for "mushroom" than we do, like eskimos with snow (although that might be an urban legend?).[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]][[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 14:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

::FWIW, I was arguing something else listed on this page *wasn't* an exploit because non-fungus grow underground, not that growing things like Cave Wheat was an exploit because they should require sunlight. Ie, blatant physics violations =/=> not behaving as intended. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 08:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

:::Isn't this a ''fantasy'' game? [[User:Wagawaga|wagawaga]] 17:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

::::Now, now, let's not bring facts into this argument. [[User:Nymersic|Nymersic]] 20:42, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

==Using ore in a mason/craft shop==
Is it an exploit that building metal furniture takes 3 ore but building the same furniture from the ore takes only 1? Not so much where the ore is lesser value than the metal (eg, "iron") but say with "gold" and other metals where the ore is a "nugget".[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]][[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 14:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
:The game is an alpha - in some places it's quirky as hell, especially in some of the math/values, but where the "quirks" stop and the "bugs" start is unclear. Is it an exploit to make a statue from gold ore rather than gold metal - the value is the same, so why process it? Meh. In the end, it's up to each player to determine, for themselves, their own challenges - if the game starts to get too easy, then self-handicap. "Which ones?" is up to you. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 20:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
::Actually, what he was describing wouldn't be the same value. The gold statue at a mason's shop using gold nuggets would require one nugget, but at a smith's you would have to smelt 3 nuggets into 3 bars and use those bars to make 1 statue. You get a third the value out of doing it the proper way (not to mention about six times the work). It sounds like this would be a pretty large exploit with any of the "Native" materials. But... does it still work that way? That's the question. [[User:Nymersic|Nymersic]] 20:48, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

== Bookkeeper exploit ==
I've found that people still work just as furiously when updating stockpile records while set to the highest precision after they've achieved highest precision already. I've used this to train new bookkeeper's just as fast, you just have to make sure the stock changes often enough. Can anyone confirm that they do still work faster when set to highest precision even after highest precision has been obtained, as opposed to being set to low precision at the time? [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 09:34, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== Cooking Alcohol ==
Why does this have a link to Req129 and a quote of it? Also, shouldn't the link to Req129 be posted after the quote, if left there? Just want to see which way seems to make more sense first. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 09:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
:If you read carefully you will notice that req129 will result in boozecooking not being profitable any more.
::I know what it will do, but I mean, shouldn't the link to Req129 either be listed after the quote, or not listed at all if the quote is there? Or maybe the quote should be removed?
Also, separate question, does alcohol that's cooked still provide the same effects as uncooked alcohol? [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 11:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
:If you are asking if it still counts as booze/drink: no. Cooking all alcohol will result in a bad surprise. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 12:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
::Good, now I know that I've been right in refusing to let my cooks cook alcohol on my fortresses. I always tend to have too much food and not enough alcohol. However, it is fun to read descriptions of alcohol food and notice that dwarves have discovered a means by which to mince alcohol in its drink form! [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 19:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I think you still should be able to "cook" alcohol, but not by it's self. When I think of a lavish meal, I see an appetizer a main course and a drink.[[User:Derekiv|Derekiv]]10:10, 27 November 2009

40d Talk:Exploit

2010-02-09T14:17:16Z

EvilTwin: /* Deadly bridges */

== Deadly bridges ==

As far as I recall megabeasts can't be killed with bridge, and they destroy it when it tries to smash them. Article does state that bridge can destroy everything. --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 00:24, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

:Also I often hear that demons are not affected by the bridge and that it is destroyed if it lowers on top of them. We need some verification on this.--[[User:Richards|Richards]] 00:57, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

::I ''think'' I accidentally atomsmashed an [[Elf]] who was standing in one of the squares the bridge ''occupies'' when it's "up". Can anyone else verify? I'll test it again with a few useless dwarves later. --[[User:Arcalane|Arcalane]] 10:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

:::That's right, a bridge can smash things that way, too... Forgetting this fact caused me to kill a peasant in my current fort.

== Quantum stockpiles ==
[[User:GreyMario|GreyMario]] wrote an exploit about Siege engines that doesn't makes much sense. We need someone to expand it.--[[User:Richards|Richards]] 01:09, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

You fire the stone into the wall, which then falls into the trench. As the trench is limited in space, stones start piling up. (Apparently, catapults are no good at doing what they were historically used for - destroying walls... And they fire in flat trajectories - i would have honestly expected stones to travel up z-levels - but having tested catapults with roofs over them, they work, which i find silly but what the heck...). Note that this is only a quantum stockpile for stone, as opposed to dump, which is much more versatile, but there's also no need to reclaim. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 02:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

:Thanks. I'll add that in.--[[User:Richards|Richards]] 02:37, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

::Well I guess eventually there will be a limit of how many items can be on a specific square... but for the moment there can be an infinite number of items no any square. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

: Another quantum stockpile can be achieved through dwarves shifting stones off of where you build a workshop, onto one tile. I've had piles of several hundred raw rocks siting on one square thanks to some nice tricks.

I'm trying to use the Quantum Stockpile technique to toss everything from my wagon to a single tile, but the Dwarves won't haul anything I've marked for dumping! I've made sure that nothing is forbidden, and the Dwarves all haul Refuse/Stone/Wood etc... but they won't move. --[[User:Anfini|Anfini]] 00:55, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:Ha! Nevermind, fixed it myself. I didn't realize DF toggled "Dwarves ignore Refuse from outside" by default. --[[User:Anfini|Anfini]] 00:58, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Ideological point of views ==

Given the endless discussions on the net on what is considered or not cheating (as opposed to modding, or fair use of game mechanics, etc.), I suggest being extra careful of not asserting what is or what is not [[cheating]].

Exploits are distinct from cheating because ...

Some would say

Exploits are a distinct form of cheating because ...

Plus, the justification
Whether a player chooses to make use of an exploit or not depends on their personal taste;
given that Dwarf Fortress is a single-player game, no one is actually harmed when you use an exploit.

equally applies to all forms of cheating (or non-cheating).

I would also stress that DF is currently more of a sandbox than a game with difficult goals, and that players boast more about their devious schemes and grand projects than about ''winning''.

--[[User:Aykavil|Aykavil]] 05:20, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

:Don't forget, many cheaters 'cheat' because they want to find out how particular functions work or to 'test out theories'. Then of course there's the people who cheat to simply save time. These are different from the people who would cheat just for 'kicks'. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 05:31, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
:I would say that it's indeed true that exploits are distinct from cheating. Cheating in a game involves breaking the rules; in a computer game, the program itself is "the rules" that one plays by. In fact, in some cases the "exploits" are unavoidable (such as children being legendary in six or more skills before they reach adulthood).

:It's like in gridiron football, if the ball carrier goes out of bounds the clock stops. This can be considered an exploitation of the rules to keep time from running out in the half, but it certainly isn't cheating.--[[User:Gandalf the Dwarf (No, really! Look it up!)|Gandalf the Dwarf (No, really! Look it up!)]] 14:01, 13 November 2008 (EST)

::My attitude toward such things generally revolves around what I imagine the creators of the game intended. In Stronghold 2, for example. I am certain that the creators did not intend players to create gigantic stacks of siege engines coexisting ipon a single point, but last I saw it was the 'best' strategy. That upset me. But it doesn't upset me when someone exploits DF or 'mangles' it with modding. There is very little a player can do to subvert Toady's intent with this game, even with modding, because it's more than just a fuedal economy/fortress defense simulation. I'm all for rules and restrictions in bloodline games, though--cheating and exploitation can be fun, but they almost always ruin stories and make the game less challenging. --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 15:36, 13 November 2008 (EST)

== Legendary Wrestler (Adventure) ==

I found a bug in Adventure mode that could be quite readily exploited. I wasn't sure if I just plonked it on the page, or chucked it here, so I'm just putting it here for now.

When strangling anything, you get 10xp for every 'choke'. If you hold down the directional button towards the creature, it will still get choked, but time will no pass, and the creature will never die. By placing something heavy(ish) on your keyboard, you can pretty much leave your adventurer to strangle for about 10 minutes, while you go get a drink. You come back, press Z to check your status, and, whadya know, you are now a Legendary Wrestler.

For reference, I use Windows XP. Don't know if that helps at all.

Thanks, Doom.

==Infinite Power Not An Exploit==
No really. I know it makes no physical sense, but as there is little good way to create power generation on most maps otherwise, and power can be used for all sorts of fun projects, the possibility of creating a battery anywhere you need it makes all sorts of fun things possible. I also doubt implementing a realistic physics model of energy is at all possible, much less sensical in a game which allows productive underground farming - which is honestly a far more serious violation of conservation of energy than waterwheel batteries. Doesn't work like reality does not imply it isn't intended or its exploitive of the system. The fact that the easy availability of power leads to more fun projects strongly argues it is a feature, not an exploit. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 17:29, 12 December 2008 (EST)

The line between Exploit and Feature is entirely subjective. The fact that a significant player population considers something an exploit makes it so, I would think. It's not like "exploit" in this sense is a pejorative term. --[[User:Erom|Erom]] 14:58, 17 December 2008 (EST)

:Seeing as it violates fairly basic laws of physics (unlike underground farming, what with fungi not requiring sunlight), I'd say that the infinite power thing is as much of an exploit as any other mechanism that generates an arbitrary amount of an otherwise-limited resource. You are, after all, exploiting the gaps in the game's physics engine. This isn't explicitly a bad thing, though; this game would be far less [[fun]] if it didn't have any hilarious bugs. Since there's no real goal of the game except to do something interesting or amusing before everything dies when your magma-pumping system suffers a mechanical failure and spews lava into the sleeping quarters, I don't really see any particular grounds to not take advantage of these holes in reality. As long as you don't go "hey, look, I built an entire fortress out of adamantine" without telling people that you turned your smelters into molecular forges that produce thousands of wafers from, say, sand, it's fine. Some people want to challenge themselves and do it the "right" way, others want to challenge themselves and do it the "weird" way, and both are equally valid approaches. After all, there are plenty of people who make "anti-walkthroughs" for games which involve bending the game in question into strange ten-dimensional shapes whilst still getting to the end, and that's just as fun as doing it properly. Maybe it'll get fixed, but in the meantime feel free to dig out the bottom of the mountain and hold up a million tonnes of rock with a single glass pillar, or channel your magma with wooden walls. The exploits mentioned in these paragraphs may or may not have been performed by the author. No responsibility is accepted for attempting to perform said exploits. [[Catsplosion#Thermonuclear_catsplosion|Do not attempt to modify cats to produce temperatures exceeding 16939.81667 degrees Kelvin.]]--[[User:Quil|Quil]] 15:37, 17 December 2008 (EST)
::Productive underground farming is a violation of the laws of physics. Specifically conservation of energy. Farming generally works because plants turn sunlight into energy. You're right, fungi don't do this. However, fungi turn dead stuff into energy - a rather inefficient process. Growing fungi in solid rock, no matter how wet, shouldn't do anything, and fungal farms should require massive amounts of fertilizer. (Its not like people don't farm mushrooms today). I also don't think Quarry Bush, Sweet Pods, or Cave Wheat are fungi at all, and the only one I know that is would be Plump Helmet.
::Regardless, underground farming in the game produces energy from nothing. I consider this a more severe physics violation than perpetual motion machines, made more egregious because it doesn't actually lead to fun like Rube Goldberg devices.
::Finally, exploit technically means its not intended to occur. Violating the laws of physics does not imply game exploit if those violations are intended. Obviously underground farming is intended, so despite being a severe violation of conservation of energy its not actually an exploit. Similarly, arbitrary power seems perfectly intended by the way power works in the game. Exploits are not determined by vote, they are determined by the designer's intention - so the only vote that counts here would by ToadyOne's.
::--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 16:02, 17 December 2008 (EST)
:::''should require massive amounts of fertilizer''
:::Where do you think your dwarves do their business? --[[User:Juckto|juckto]] 16:06, 17 December 2008 (EST)

::::This should have diminishing returns. Eat food, body removes energy, expel remaining mass which contains some amount of energy to be used. If you feed your dwarves with nothing but farming (perfectly possible in game) you should be faced with diminishing yields as consumption pulls energy out of the system which then gets used for activities (so no, disposing of the dead as fertilizer does not solve the problem). Ie, a sealed fortress with no access to the surface should be faced with an ever-decreasing energy budget, and thus ever-decreasing food production. Instead, in-game you have exponentially increasing potential food production, which is crazy since there is no outside energy input. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 16:44, 17 December 2008 (EST)

:::::On the other hand, DF is semi-mythical, and the concept of dwarves maintaining underground farms that work as well for them as above-ground farms work for humans is a great game element, even if it does not match what exists in our world.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 17:21, 17 December 2008 (EST)

::::::Why do the same arguments not also support arbitrary physical power if arbitrary energy is allowed otherwise? Its the same thing - both violate conservation of energy. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 17:26, 17 December 2008 (EST)

::::::If things didn't grow in dark, seemingly nutrientless places, preparing petri dishes would be far, far easier. As it is, since things become "muddy" when irrigated, presumably a suitable layer of fertile silt is being deposited on the surface of the rock to grow mythical subterranean plants that thrive well enough to be a suitable crop. There is, however, a subtle difference between magical crops and magical water, in that one is a somewhat hand-waved but ultimately convenient mechanism for growing crops, along the same lines as the massive time acceleration and strange Dwarven sleeping habits, while the other is a device that has no actual, functioning, real-world equivalent and is instead a quirk of the simulation, similar to, say, the deadly !![[fire imp]] fat!! that is produced by strange object property inheritance. It's essentially the same thing as opening up the reaction_standard.txt file and removing the requirement for fuel and adamantine threads from the adamantine production reaction, which happens to give you as much adamantine as you like straight from your smelter. The developer left the raws in simple text format, so he must have intended for people to do that, surely?
::::::Really, though, I don't see the need to argue about this. It's not like the Exploit Police are going to come and arrest people for building perpetual motion machines, nor are they going to arrest me for making a species that can rip people to pieces with their bare hands and wield +adamantine rocket launcher+s in both hands.--[[User:Quil|Quil]] 17:51, 17 December 2008 (EST)

:If we can agree that Toady did not intend for perpetual motion machines to be possible, then we can safely classify this as an exploit. If we can't, I'm sure there is a thread with comments from him on the issue around the forums somewhere. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:17, 17 December 2008 (EST)

::''Why'' does any of this matter? Perpetual motion can be done, we document it. Make use of it if you like, don't if you don't.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 23:47, 17 December 2008 (EST)

:::Agreed with [[User:Maximus|Maximus]], we're arguing over a classification that simply isn't included in the scope of the wiki. Whether it's classified as an exploit or not, the ability to create power via perpetual motion exists and has been documented; therefor, it deserves a place in the wiki. Let's just leave it where it is and agree that if someone doesn't personally think it's an exploit, then it's not an exploit for them. --[[User:LucienSadi|LucienSadi]] 05:28, 18 December 2008 (EST)
::::Not included in the scope of the wiki?? Guilty conscience much? Rest at ease, the exploit page isn't finger-wagging as much an instruction manual XD Of course it's relevant, there's things even Toady considers an exploit(and plans to remove). As for mushrooms, that's obviously as Toady intended it, not an unintended side-effect of something else gone wrong. That is what makes things an exploit or not, a game with dwarves and dragons is fairly fantastic in the first place. Sheesh. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 09:57, 18 December 2008 (EST)
:::Of course it's included in the scope of the wiki. Look at the title of the talk page. Talk:Exploit. If it's an exploit, we include it on the exploit page. If it's not, we include it somewhere else. In any case, it shows up somewhere. Don't get so excited over little things :) [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 06:27, 18 December 2008 (EST)

== Intricate artifacts ==

You seem to be certain that this exploit doesn't work, but I can't imagine that you've actually tried it correctly, since I have an example that confirms it: {{spoil small|[[image:Soundedmurders.png]]}}.
[[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 17:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

: Indeed i tried to confirm it with my 2 last artifacts (today) and it didn't work. At what precise moment did you unforbid the items? Did they all show up as tasked with 't'? Have you yourself reproduced it? What version do you use? I know there ''is'' a bug that produces such artifacts but that one can't be reliably reproduced AFAIK. --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 17:57, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
::Ah - I think i see how it would work - assuming he wants 3 stones, 1 is tasked. Now I unforbid 5 other present stones at once and they will all be tasked? If it should work like that, i probably haven't tried that. --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 18:03, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
:The retasking is done only when the moody dwarf picks up or delivers new materials. In your example the first three stones that he picked up would be retasked, but the fourth and fifth would not because he already has three stones that were before them. So he would use a total of 4 stones. If you wanted him to use all of them you need to unforbid the latest three, wait for them to get tasked, then unforbid the first two.
The example is one I generated in {{version|0.28.181.40d}}. It shouldn't be any different in d# versions, though, since there aren't any logic updates. Mayday, on the other hand; I have no clue how far his changes have reached. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 18:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
:::So does this only work if the dwarf requires more than one item of a type? --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 12:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
::::You can pull it off if they only want one, but it will be a lot more work on your part. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I think this is more complicated than Donut realizes, or else he just hasn't explained it thoroughly. I finally got this method to work, with a caveat. Here's how I did it: First, my dwarf collected the item I wanted extras of last (I was hoping to make a bone hammer, and he only got one bone, and I wanted more bone) so I forbade one of the 3 cave lobster shells he'd collected. I alternated forbidding the goblin bones (no other kind for a war hammer!) and the lobster shells until I had 4 stacks of goblin bones. Then, I forbade a second lobster shell, so he could collect one and return it to the shop without starting work. But I found I had to actually let him pick up the last shell (the last item to be picked up before construction would start) before it would re-task the unforbidden goblin bones, then I had to forbid the latest tasked lobster shell before he returned with the un-tasked one (to keep him from beginning construction). Then I had to wait until he picked up the next shell, etc. Note for clarity's sake that I had to unforbid only one stack of bone at a time, starting from the bottom (most recently collected) stack up to the oldest/top stack. Presumable, according to what Donut says, you can unforbid as many at a time as are queued for inclusion originally - I could only do one at a time because he originally only wanted one.
In this particular case, he ended up using the lobster shell for the base of the construction, which was NOT what I wanted, so I'll have to figure something else out... But I thought I'd post this just because I had such trouble getting it to work. From my other experience I believe that the last item to be forbidden/unforbidden tends to end up being the 'base' material, so I actually don't think you can use this method (the way I did it) for the material you want to be the base for the item; however, in this particular case I've found that cave lobster shell was the original base item (which disappoints me greatly) so I can't say this for sure.

==Sweet pods, winter, and underground==

What exactly are the exploits involving those items? I couldn't find any information on how you can exploit the process of turning sweet pods into dwarven syrup instead of sugar, exploit what I'm assuming is referring to the thought to be bug where a farm plot does not check if a plant can be grown next season if it is late winter (not tested for current version), or how you can trick a subterranean farm plot into growing above ground plants.

I'm not saying there aren't exploits involving those, just curious as to ''what'' the exploits are. --[[User:Elvang|Elvang]] 04:34, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

:Err, well, no; intentionally producing only syrup as such is an exploit since it gives 5 times the amount and thus value compared to sugar - and that can't be what Toady intends, right? right? Also it is obviously an oversight on Toady's part that you can grow any surface plants all year, especially in winter. So you shouldn't do it just because you can. And for underground, well seriously, we all know that anything except mushrooms needs sunlight so if you plant smth else than plumps you are, again, exploiting, cos obviously Toady is going to change that soon..as you may have figured, ''I'' don't consider any of those exploits, but people have argued for it. --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 15:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
::I gotta disagree with the underground plants thing - for all we know dwarves just have a lot more names for "mushroom" than we do, like eskimos with snow (although that might be an urban legend?).[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]][[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 14:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

::FWIW, I was arguing something else listed on this page *wasn't* an exploit because non-fungus grow underground, not that growing things like Cave Wheat was an exploit because they should require sunlight. Ie, blatant physics violations =/=> not behaving as intended. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 08:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

:::Isn't this a ''fantasy'' game? [[User:Wagawaga|wagawaga]] 17:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

::::Now, now, let's not bring facts into this argument. [[User:Nymersic|Nymersic]] 20:42, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

==Using ore in a mason/craft shop==
Is it an exploit that building metal furniture takes 3 ore but building the same furniture from the ore takes only 1? Not so much where the ore is lesser value than the metal (eg, "iron") but say with "gold" and other metals where the ore is a "nugget".[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]][[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 14:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
:The game is an alpha - in some places it's quirky as hell, especially in some of the math/values, but where the "quirks" stop and the "bugs" start is unclear. Is it an exploit to make a statue from gold ore rather than gold metal - the value is the same, so why process it? Meh. In the end, it's up to each player to determine, for themselves, their own challenges - if the game starts to get too easy, then self-handicap. "Which ones?" is up to you. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 20:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
::Actually, what he was describing wouldn't be the same value. The gold statue at a mason's shop using gold nuggets would require one nugget, but at a smith's you would have to smelt 3 nuggets into 3 bars and use those bars to make 1 statue. You get a third the value out of doing it the proper way (not to mention about six times the work). It sounds like this would be a pretty large exploit with any of the "Native" materials. But... does it still work that way? That's the question. [[User:Nymersic|Nymersic]] 20:48, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

== Bookkeeper exploit ==
I've found that people still work just as furiously when updating stockpile records while set to the highest precision after they've achieved highest precision already. I've used this to train new bookkeeper's just as fast, you just have to make sure the stock changes often enough. Can anyone confirm that they do still work faster when set to highest precision even after highest precision has been obtained, as opposed to being set to low precision at the time? [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 09:34, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== Cooking Alcohol ==
Why does this have a link to Req129 and a quote of it? Also, shouldn't the link to Req129 be posted after the quote, if left there? Just want to see which way seems to make more sense first. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 09:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
:If you read carefully you will notice that req129 will result in boozecooking not being profitable any more.
::I know what it will do, but I mean, shouldn't the link to Req129 either be listed after the quote, or not listed at all if the quote is there? Or maybe the quote should be removed?
Also, separate question, does alcohol that's cooked still provide the same effects as uncooked alcohol? [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 11:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
:If you are asking if it still counts as booze/drink: no. Cooking all alcohol will result in a bad surprise. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 12:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
::Good, now I know that I've been right in refusing to let my cooks cook alcohol on my fortresses. I always tend to have too much food and not enough alcohol. However, it is fun to read descriptions of alcohol food and notice that dwarves have discovered a means by which to mince alcohol in its drink form! [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 19:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I think you still should be able to "cook" alcohol, but not by it's self. When I think of a lavish meal, I see an appetizer a main course and a drink.[[User:Derekiv|Derekiv]]10:10, 27 November 2009

40d:Material token

2010-02-09T07:34:11Z

EvilTwin: probable meaning of BLOOD_NONSPECIFIC added

:''You may be looking for [[Matgloss tokens]].''
These tokens are types of materials, used to specify for example what material an item is made of.

{| {{prettytable}}
|- bgcolor="#ddd"
! #
! Token
! Information
|-
| 1 || WOOD || Subtypes come from MATGLOSS_WOOD; or USE_RACEGLOSS within creature raws (e.g. ITEMCORPSE)
|-
| 2 || STONE || Subtypes come from MATGLOSS_STONE; or USE_LAVA_STONE (includes MATGLOSS_STONE_GEM.)
|-
| 3 || METAL || Subtypes come from MATGLOSS_METAL
|-
| 4 || BONE || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 5 || IVORY || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 6 || HORN || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 7 || AMBER || ???
|-
| 8 || CORAL || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 9 || PEARL || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 10 || SHELL || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 11 || LEATHER || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 12 || SILK || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 13 || PLANT_ALCOHOL || Subtypes come from MATGLOSS_PLANT
|-
| 14 || GLASS_GREEN || No subtypes use NONE or NO_MATGLOSS
|-
| 15 || GLASS_CLEAR || No subtypes use NONE or NO_MATGLOSS
|-
| 16 || GLASS_CRYSTAL || No subtypes use NONE or NO_MATGLOSS
|-
| 17 || SAND || No subtypes use NONE or NO_MATGLOSS
|-
| 18 || COAL || Subtype is either COKE or CHARCOAL
|-
| 19 || POTASH || No subtypes use NONE or NO_MATGLOSS
|-
| 20 || ASH || No subtypes use NONE or NO_MATGLOSS
|-
| 21 || PEARLASH || No subtypes use NONE or NO_MATGLOSS
|-
| 22 || LYE || No subtypes use NONE or NO_MATGLOSS
|-
| 23 || RENDERED_FAT || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 24 || SOAP_ANIMAL || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 25 || FAT || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 26 || MUD || ???
|-
| 27 || VOMIT || ???
|-
| 28 || BLOOD_NONSPECIFIC || Subtypes are probably the same as BLOODTYPE{{verify}}. Might also mark the blood as of no specific type, so ''blood spatter'' in contradictory to ''goblin blood spatter''.
|-
| 29 || BLOOD_SPECIFIC || Subtypes come from CREATURE
|-
| 30 || SLIME || ???
|-
| 31 || SALT || ???
|-
| 32 || FILTH_B || ???
|-
| 33 || FILTH_Y || ???
|-
| 34 || UNKNOWN_SUBSTANCE || ???
|-
| 35 || GRIME || ???
|}

CREATURE does not appear here in the exe, but has been observed with EXTRACT and CHEESE. PLANT does not appear here, but has been observed with POWDER_MISC and CLOTH. Subtypes come from the appropriate matgloss.

When making reactions that use the PLANT or SEEDS Item Tokens, use the name of the appropriate plant from matgloss_plant.txt as the Material Token, and NO_MATGLOSS for Matgloss Subtype.{{version|0.28.181.40d}}

When making reactions that use the REMAINS Item Token, use the name of the appropriate creature from creature_xxx.txt as the Material Token, and NO_MATGLOSS for Matgloss Subtype.

When making reactions that use the BONES Item Tokento create the bones of a specific creature, use the name of the appropriate creature as the Material Token and as the Matgloss Subtype.

[[Category:Modding]]
[[Category:Tokens]]

40d:Experience

2009-08-16T12:33:52Z

EvilTwin: /* Gaining experience */

'''Experience''' represents how much a certain [[dwarf]] (or other [[humanoid|intelligent creature]]) has learned about a certain subject, or on a whole. It affects proficiency in [[skills]] and a dwarf's [[attributes]]. Precise points in experience are never displayed directly, except in [[Adventure Mode]].

Every experience point earned is associated with a skill. Skill increases happen when a certain number of points in that skill is reached. Attribute increases happen when a certain total number of points is reached.

The [[announcement]] "''Dwarfname'' is more experienced" signifies an [[attribute]] increase. Skill increases are not announced unless the increase changes a dwarf's [[profession]], when the announcement will be to the effect of "''Dwarfname'' has become a ''new profession''".

== Gaining experience ==

Dwarves gain experience by performing tasks. Experience is gained when the task is ''completed''; if a task takes a long time and is frequently interrupted (by the dwarf going off to drink, for instance), the dwarf will gain the skill very slowly. Tasks without an associated skill (such as [[hauling]]) do not give any experience.

Constructing [[building]]s or [[construction]]s does not give experience unless the building requires [[architecture]] to build. Such buildings give 30 points of experience in [[building designer]] to the architect and 10 experience to whichever dwarf finishes the building once it is designed. The additional experience depends on what material is used to build the building: a building made of [[stone]], stone [[block]]s, or [[glass]] blocks gives [[masonry]] experience; a building made of [[log]]s or wood blocks gives [[carpentry]] experience; a building made of [[metal]] bars or blocks gives [[metalsmith]] experience; and [[soap]] bars appear to give no experience to any skill.

Destroying buildings and constructions of any type gives no experience.

{| style="margin: 0 auto"
|+ style="margin: 0 auto" |'''Known Experience Values'''
| style="vertical-align: top" |
{| style="border-left: 1px solid black; border-right: 1px solid black; border-spacing: 0 1px; background: black"
|- style="background: #fff"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | '''Skill''' || '''Task''' || '''XP'''
|- style="background: #bbb"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Miner]] || Dig || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 10
|- style="background: #bbb"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Miner]] || Remove ramp (natural) || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 10
|- style="background: #ff6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Bowyer]] || Make wooden [[crossbow]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #ff6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Carpenter]] || Construct [[bed]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #ff6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Wood Cutter]] || Fell [[tree]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #fff"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Engraver]] || [[Smooth]] or detail a [[floor]] or [[wall]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 10
|- style="background: #fff"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Mason]] || Construct rock object || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #6b6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Trapper]] || Construct [[animal trap]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #6b6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Trapper]] || Bait [[animal trap]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #888"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Armorsmith]] || Make [[armor]] (any type) || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #888"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Metalsmith]] || Make metal [[Block]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #88f"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Stonecrafter]] || Make stone [[crafts]], [[mug]]s, etc. || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #88f"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Weaver]] || Gather [[silk]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #88f"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Weaver]] || Weave any [[cloth]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #88f"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Wood crafter]] || Make wooden [[bolt]]s || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #88f"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Glassmaker]] || Construct [[block]]s,[[window]]s || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|}
| style="vertical-align: top" |
{| style="border-left: 1px solid black; border-right: 1px solid black; border-spacing: 0 1px; background: black"
|- style="background: #fff"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | '''Skill''' || '''Task''' || '''XP'''
|- style="background: #880"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Herbalist]] || Gather plants || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #d00"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Mechanic]] || Link a building to trigger || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #d00"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Siege engineer]] || Construct catapult/ballista parts || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #d00"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Siege engineer]] || Assemble ballista arrow || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #d00"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Siege operator]] || Load [[catapult]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #d00"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Siege operator]] || Fire [[catapult]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #bb6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Brewer]] || Brew [[alcohol|drink]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #bb6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Butcher]] || Slaughter [[animal]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #bb6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Cook]] || Cook easy/fine/lavish [[meal]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #bb6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Grower]] || Harvest [[plants]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #bb6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Grower]] || Plant [[seeds]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #bb6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Herbalist]] || Gather [[plants]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #a6a"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Building designer|Building designer]] || Construct [[building]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #a6a"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Organizer]] || Manage Work Order || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 10
|- style="background: #6bb"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Strand extractor]] || Extract [[adamantine]] || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | 30
|- style="background: #6b6"
| style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | [[Marksdwarf]] || Shoot at archery range || align="right" style="padding: 0.2em 0.4em" | ≈7.5
|}
|}

:* A dwarf taken by a [[strange mood]] will gain 20,000 experience in the affected skill.

== Increasing skills ==

If a dwarf has zero experience in a skill, they will have no skill listed (but can still use that skill at an untrained level if a [[labor]] associated with the skill is designated, and will gain experience from completing such tasks).

As soon as a dwarf gets even 1 point of experience in a skill from completing just one [[job]], they attain '''Dabbling''' rank in that skill. This can be important for [[strange mood]]s.

To reach '''Novice''' level in any skill requires 500 XP. Reaching each successive level requires 500 plus an additional 100 XP per additional rank, so to go from '''Novice''' to '''''(no label)''''' requires 600 XP; '''''(no label)''''' to '''Competent''' requires 700 XP, and so on. The following figures are the ''cumulative'' XP needed to go from unskilled to any given skill level.

As dwarfs gain more experience from completing jobs, they gain more experience in the skill related to those jobs:

{| style="margin: 0 auto; border: 1px solid black; border-spacing: 0"
|-
| width="25%" style="border-right: 1px solid black;" |
{| width="100%"
! Level !! XP
|-
| '''Novice''' || align="right" | 500
|-
| ''(no label)'' || align="right" | 1100
|-
| '''Competent''' || align="right" | 1800
|-
| '''Skilled''' || align="right" | 2600
|-
| '''Proficient'''* || align="right" | 3500
|}
| width="25%" style="border-right: 1px solid black;" |
{| width="100%"
! Level !! XP
|-
|
|-
| '''Talented''' || align="right" | 4500
|-
| '''Adept ''' || align="right" | 5600
|-
| '''Expert ''' || align="right" | 6800
|-
| '''Professional''' || align="right" | 8100
|-
| '''Accomplished''' || align="right" | 9500
|}
| width="25%" style="border-right: 1px solid black;" |
{| width="100%"
! Level !! XP
|-
|
|-
| '''Great ''' || align="right" | 11000
|-
| '''Master ''' || align="right" | 12600
|-
| '''High Master''' || align="right" | 14300
|-
| '''Grand Master''' || align="right" | 16100
|-
| '''Legendary ''' || align="right" | 18000
|}
| width="25%" style="border-right: 1px solid black;" |
{| width="100%"
! Level !! XP
|-
|
|-
| '''Legendary'''(+1) || align="right" | 20000
|-
| '''Legendary'''(+2) || align="right" | 22100
|-
| '''Legendary'''(+3) || align="right" | 24300
|-
| '''Legendary'''(+4) || align="right" | 26600
|-
| '''Legendary'''(+5) || align="right" | 29000
|}
|}

::::::''(* "Proficient" is the highest rank that one of your initial seven dwarves can start with. [[Migrant]]s will arrive with no skills, Novice, or (no label) levels.)''

Although '''[[Legendary]]''' is the highest skill level displayed, there are actually five skill levels above that. Any higher skill levels are known to have an effect on [[item quality]]; a Legendary dwarf will make [[masterpiece]] items 15% of the time, on average, whereas a Legendary+5 dwarf will make masterpieces 27% of the time (and exceptional items the other 73% of the time). Skill beyond Legendary+5 does not increase the probability of creating a masterpiece item.

You can't find out exactly when a dwarf gets to Legendary+5, but if they have no other skills it will happen 1000 XP before their eighth [[attribute]] -- so when they get eight attributes, they are past Legendary+5. Although skill is capped at Legendary+5, experience is not capped at any level; a dwarf can keep gaining [[attribute]]s by using a skill that has long since topped out.

== Increasing attributes ==

[[Attribute]] increases are based on total experience gained across all skills, and are not connected to the attainment of specific skill levels.

Dwarves with a single skill will get their first attribute between Competent and Skilled, their second when reaching Talented, a third between Expert and Professional, a fourth when reaching Great, and a fifth between High Master and Grand Master. Further increases can happen after Legendary.

[[Toady]] has stated that although there is no cap on attribute increases, after the fifth increase they are still displayed as 'Ultra-Mighty' 'Perfectly Agile' or 'Superdwarvenly Tough', so an attribute gain message without a change in displayed attributes is possible.

{| style="margin: 0 auto; border: 1px solid black; border-spacing: 0; text-align: right"
|-
| width="50%" style="border-right: 1px solid black" |
{| width="100%"
! Attributes !! style="padding-left: 35px;"| XP
|-
! 1
| 2000
|-
! 2
| 4500
|-
! 3
| 7500
|-
! 4
| 11000
|-
! 5
| 15000
|-
! 6
| 19500
|-
! 7
| 24500
|-
! 8
| 30000
|}
| width="50%" valign="top" |
{| width="100%"
! Attributes !! style="padding-left: 35px;"| XP
|-
! 9
| 36000
|-
! 10
| 42500
|-
! 11
| 49500
|-
! 12
| 57000
|-
! 13
| 65000
|-
! 14
| 73500
|-
! 15
| 82500
|-
! 16
| 92000
|}
|}

[[Category:Dwarves]]

40d Talk:Experience

2009-08-16T12:26:46Z

EvilTwin: added section for easier bundling of verifications

Until experience points have been re-verified, this page should be marked as having been copied from the old Wiki. I don't know how to do that and am too tired to research it right now.

I will add that I intend to re-verify experience fairly soon. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 02:52, 14 November 2007 (EST)
:Done [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 09:42, 14 November 2007 (EST)

:Since I had a pile of Adamantine around, I decided to do the Extraction experiment. It took a dwarf who had never extracted adamantine before 17 iterations to reach novice. That makes it more than 29 and at most 32 xp per action. I expect that it's a 30xp task, like so many others. [[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 05:07, 14 November 2007 (EST)

:I've now taken the dwarf to named level (Strand Extractor) with exactly 37 tasks, so it's 30xp. [[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 18:14, 14 November 2007 (EST)

:: Heh. On the Real Wiki, it's right about now that you'd be shot down for doing primary research! [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 14:17, 1 December 2007 (EST)

::: Then we're the exact opposite of them: primary research is 99% of what we post. (The rest being essentially divine scripture--verifiably from the creator of the subject of our wiki.) --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 12:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)

"...but 27% of the time when Legendary+5, based off of a random d20 roll."

27% on a d20? You mean like rolling a 5.4 and below? I'm curious how one can roll higher than a 5 and lower than a 6 on an integer-numbered die.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 17:41, 1 February 2008 (EST)

:Rather easy when you consider that more than one test should be done and 27% ends up being the average. Odds are that if the game actually uses a d20 roll, then the programmed average is 25% with 2% margin of error in the experiment, well within acceptable margin. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 18:20, 1 February 2008 (EST)

::It is not calculated from a d20 roll. It is calculated from rolls of a d5, d10, d15, d20, d25, and potentially a d3. And a quite complicated formula. At least it was back in the 2D version. Gory details in the [http://archive.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Item_Quality archive]. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 14:24, 3 February 2008 (EST)

== Mining and legendary +1,+2, ect. ==

Do miners get any bonus for reaching legendary +1-5? --[[User:Heliopios|Heliopios]] 14:55, 1 December 2007 (EST)
:a legendary+5 will be faster than a legendary, but I don't know if that is just because of the 5 stat bumps that all classes get for moving from legendary to legendary+5. I may look into it, but no promises. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 22:53, 3 December 2007 (EST)

whats the experience gain for a pump operator? this would be interesting to see. Also, how long does a single pump operation take?

==How many Exp other things give==

Easier bundling of information for verification of missing experience point gain numbers. got a glassmaker at "accomplished" skill-level, he wasnt even dabbling when starting to produce glass and is the only glassmaker in my fortress. i got 317 glass items in my fortress and havent sold a single. 9500/317=29.9... so that means 30 exp per made item. though he was only making windows, terrariums and blocks, so i dont know what about crafts and such smaller items, i'll add it to the table 
[[User:EvilTwin|EvilTwin]] 12:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

==Gathering Silk==

I'm pretty sure that a dwarf gains experience towards weaving by gathering silk only if the dwarf actually returns the thread to the loom. I'd like someone else to verify it before I make a note of it somewhere. [[User:Bouchart|Bouchart]] 09:50, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

==Crafting Skills==

Are we sure that crafting experience is awarded per item? Because sometimes you can get two or three items for one. [[Goblets]] always come in threes. Does this also apply to clothing and leatherwork? Because gloves and shoes always come in matched pairs. I'm hunting for ways to maximize experience gain. --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 02:25, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

:My best guess is per task, but I haven't actually tried to verify this.
:Maximizing xp gain seems to involve giving a dwarf something they can do relatively quickly (engrave, tunnel through soil, etc...) or without much oversight (siege operation on a catapult, operate pump - likely slower but doesn't bias their 'strange mood' stat useage) to get them some stat upgrades, and then stick them doing what you actually want them doing. Also, minimize hauling tasks, as that wastes dwarf time with no xp gain. Unfortunately, most industry skills produce something, and so some hauling is essential to minimalize their time by avoiding clutter. In other words, you can't simultaneously optimize every dwarf's xp gain at the same time, though you can maximize average xp gain over the whole fortress, but it likely involves not only cross-training but also efficient fortress design and finding a balance between clutter and wasted dwarf-time spent hauling. Not to mention careful micromanagement of who exactly is hauling what to where to avoid unnecessarily long walks. Ie, its complicated, and you'll probably spend hours setting up hauling tasks each fortress month. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 07:29, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

::My approach is to focus on leveling up some key dwarves, and let the peons do the hauling and cleaning. I have seen random dwarves haul finished goods out of an occupied workshop, letting the craftsdwarf continue working.
--[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 22:15, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

:::I have a new theory on optimizing xp gain for all dwarves simultaneously, based on what i've observed military dwarves doing - let them stand around idle and throw parties. They all gain social skills (and xp), there's no hauling involved, and thus no dwarf is wasting time doing non-xp earning activities. Of course, you also aren't producing anything... (It might make an interesting slow start for turbo cross-training later...). I suppose the optimal economy would be a food producing one because the hauling involved in harvesting plants gives xp, and while this introduces some hauling (from stills and kitchens) without xp gain, its pretty minimal and easy to come up with a reasonably optimal fortress design for a single industry fortress. And of course you'll need to produce beds and dining facilities for everyone, so a carpenter and mason are required, but we're mostly talking about a minimally hauling fortress that emphasizes social skill xp gain. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 08:37, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

::::Yes, social actions are indeed overpowered, causing the majority of children to reach legendary well before adulthood. Obviously, such a system completely destroys both the economy (everyone ends up acting like it's pre-econ, since everyone's legendary social) and the meaning of gaining legendary dwarves, as opposed to specific legendaries, which are the only thing that has meaning still. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 09:04, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

== Any way to turn off the announcements? ==

Every two seconds I'm getting "blablabla, blala is more experienced". Is there a way of turning those messages off? --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:24, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

:Nope. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 11:23, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

::Oh well, guess its another thing to add to "the list". --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:24, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

[[User:Ghoulsblade|Ghoulsblade]] 16:37, 28 February 2009 (EST) : making metal bars gives 30 exp each, i tried it : a dwarf with no skill reached novice blacksmith/metalsmith after making 17 metal blocks (x30=510 exp).
diff : http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php?title=Experience&diff=40788&oldid=36483
high skill is useful for making hiqh-quality anvils for selling.
It might even be possible to train this up at no cost, if the metal blocks are molten again using magma, but i still have to try that.

[[User:Ghoulsblade|Ghoulsblade]] 17:37, 28 February 2009 (EST) : hmm, didn't work as well as i hoped, at least bronze seems to be completely destroyed by by the magma after a while. but it might work with an iron bin. it's just rather tricky to get it where you want it

== Merging with [[skill]] ==

I suggest this be merged with [[skill]]. They cover the same topic. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 23:16, 28 March 2009 (UTC)