Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

v0.31 Talk:Magma-safe

2011-03-05T19:33:36Z

Icelizarrd: /* Ice Constructions */ new section

This article's contents are working under the assumption that the temperature of magma is still 12000 as it was in 40d - given that the [[magma man]]'s FIXED_TEMP is still 12000, this should be a reasonable assumption for now. Once Dtil is updated (or a similar utility is made available), this should be reasonably simple to verify. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 14:56, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I calculated Celsius temperatures from Urist based on two of the known points, and floored the result. (Rounding to the nearest might be more accurate, but it should be close enough for all practical purposes, and this required less examining of the decimals). Note that the Magnetite melting temperature is approximately the real magnetite melting temperature - so i imagine most of these are based on real melting temperatures, although i also checked some others (eg, Hematite) whose actual melt temperature is a range (which was consistent, but not useful for real independent verification).

Question: Why does the layout give preference to Farenheit anyway? If anything, Celsius should be preferred. (Actually, Kelvin should be preferred since its the metric unit).

--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 15:20, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:Fahrenheit is the main unit because in-game temperatures (degrees Urist) are equal to degrees Fahrenheit + 9968. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 15:51, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:: I'm assuming these numbers were pulled out of the raws somewhere? You need to verify your assumption about the actual temperature of magma. Someone is apparently reading this page and having problems. The highlights are that he's melting bauxite, obsidian, mica, and nickel doors and screaming at the bugtracker in anger. [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1579#bugnotes] Check the link for more details. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 17:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Given that things made of the same material sometimes melted and sometimes didn't (after being submerged for a season), it seems like something even stranger is going on. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 17:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::: Yea, well hard to say right now, his report is rather angry and ranty. I just figured I'd bring it to your attention and we'll figure out what's actually going on here. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 17:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
::::: I've just managed to hack dtil's memory.ini sufficiently to connect it to 0.31.03 and activate the Tile Viewer. Some things are a bit off (e.g. the cursor position is wrong), but it's reporting underground temperatures (open space or solid rock) as 10015, warm stone as 10100, and magma as 12000, ''all'' of which are 100% consistent with 0.28.181.40d. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 18:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Just had a thought - while magma is most definitely temperature 12000, fire snakes look to have a FIXED_TEMP of 14000, which is hot enough to melt just about anything (namely, everything but periclase, dolomite, raw adamantine, and fire imp/dragon materials). Perhaps fire snakes just became a whole lot more dangerous? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::I just want to point out that if the fire snakes are the cause of this, then that is really awesome. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::The original reporter just pointed out that the raws for OBSIDIAN contain '''two melting points''' - the first one is 13600, which is magma-safe, and the second one is 11818, which is '''not magma-safe''', and that removing the second one causes his obsidian mechanisms to stop melting. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 13:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

==Errors / Unknowns==
Celsius and Fahrenheit are reversed in the table header, and I don't see how to change that. --[[User:The Architect|The Architect]] 04:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
* Fixed it by editting the template, hopefully its only used in this article (I assume it is as its called MS template) --[[User:AKAfreaky|AKAfreaky]] 12:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Does the table reflect a research into all stone RAWs, verifying that these are the only magma-safe ones?
:It does. Unfortunately, it managed to originally miss obsidian having ''two'' melting points (one of which is not magma-safe and happens to be the one used in-game) and nickel silver's melting point having been reduced significantly. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:17, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

==Glass==
I've had magma pumps (stacked) with glass components break down every time. Seems to take slightly longer than wood but still rather fast.

--After reading this comment I went and performed extensive testing of glass and my results have shown that green glass is most definitely magma safe. I submerged a room full of various green glass objects in magma and had a set of green glass pumps circulating the magma via a 3 tall pump stack and even after a few years of continuous running nothing melted or de-constructed. --[[User:Gtmattz|Gtmattz]] 19:50, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

:I am experiencing magma pump deconstruction, but the culprit seems to be that ''the block in a magma pump now must be magma-safe''. {{Version|0.31.04}}  The corkscrew and pipe can still be glass. I am attempting to Verify but others should as well. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 00:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
::In an experiment, I was able to pump magma for a while using pumps made of both green glass and copper, the latter of which is most definitely '''not''' magma-safe. Exactly how long did the pump last before it broke down? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 01:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Between 15 and 30 seconds realtime. Pump was cobaltite block + green glass screw & pipe. The pump deconstructed, collapsing all pumps above it in the stack, so I do not know if other pumps were/would have been directly affected. My further experiments have NOT replicated the deconstruction (except for wooden blocks, as expected). I am wondering if that's because my tests were made with single pumps. I intend to build a bunch of pump stacks with magma-unsafe blocks tomorrow. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 08:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:::I am seeing repeatable deconstruction of pumps built with green glass screws and pipes, and non-magma-safe stone blocks, if they're in the middle of a pump stack. I have not yet experimented with putting the unsafe-material pumps at the top or bottom of the stack. I am not seeing problems with glass or metal blocks, even if the metal is not magma-safe. Savegames on request. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 21:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:::: I haven't had the patience to play long enough to fool with pumping magma in 0.31 much yet. With how much the magma-safe materials list has changed I sort of assume other things may have changed as well. I'm curious to see what magma will do to a constructed wooden wall for example. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 23:41, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

==Emphasis==
I'd like to make a suggestion to have the part with "wooden components will give you hell" in the pump section emphasized. I missed the fine print (to my own error, I'm not telling you this is your fault) and built a wooden pump stack of 120 pumps to bring magma from the sea to my z-6 work area. To my dismay, 18 months of carpentry, architecture and masonry blew a fuse in under 10 seconds. Fortunately I saved beforehand and forcequit afterwards, but perhaps a little more emphasis to that part of the page would be in order to prevent any other idiots from trying the same thing -[[User:Yeti Yeti|Yeti Yeti]] 06:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

==Not-Magma-Safe Rock Blocks Overheating==
I built a pump stack with iron corkscrews, glass tubes and a variety of not-magma-safe rock blocks. The pump stack worked for a while, but then the bottommost pump exploded. The rock block disappeared so I assume it's the part that got melted. Once I replaced it with an orthoclase block the pump worked fine... until the 8 above it exploded. So I think it takes a little while but the pumps do overheat.
:Your experience agrees with my own, mentioned above in the Glass section. I was waiting for confirmation, and will now update the article. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 01:03, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
:Actually I need to do more experimenting. Q: Can screws and pipes made of non-magma-safe metals be used? (Non-magma-safe metal blocks are OK, as are glass blocks.) Q: What, if anything, changes if magma gets on the passable tile of the pump? —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 01:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

==Obsidian Is Not Magma-Safe==

I just had an obsidian floor grate melt when magma was passing through it. 16:26, 29 July 2010 86.151.22.110
:What version of DF? One of the bugfixes for DF 0.31.06 was removal of a spurious 2nd melting point for obsidian. In unmodded DF 0.31.06 and up, obsidian should be magma-safe. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 00:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
:Also, what version of DF did you create the fort with? —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 00:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
:: I believe this has been patched out by now, but at one point obsidian had two different values listed as it's melting point. I think this was corrected in a patch, but if not you can find this in your raw files and make the fix yourself in the meantime. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 23:35, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

== Ice Constructions ==

Contrary to what it says under "constructions that resist magma", constructed ice floors actually ''do'' melt. However, constructed ice walls hold out just fine; I haven't tested the other constructions yet. [[User:Icelizarrd|Icelizarrd]] 19:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

40d Talk:Cave-in

2011-02-23T12:45:05Z

Icelizarrd: Ahem, didn't realize this was the 40d DF, not 2010. The fact that I was responding to someone from a year ago probably should have tipped me off.

==Connectedness==
Is this still valid? I recall that only truly disconnected areas cave in these days...

Yeah, this is what I've heard. I'm digging out a bunch of greater than 7x7 rooms now so we'll find out shortly.
--[[User:Karlito|Karlito]] 00:26, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

:I've dug out some big rooms (10x10 I think is the biggest so far) and not had a cave-in for a season or so. I'm thinking it only does it on disconnects. makes it ALOT easier to plan your fort out. --[[User:BurnedToast|BurnedToast]] 00:33, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

::No kidding. What are the chances of accidentally completely disconnecting an area? I think that Toady One is going to continue to tweak the cave-in circumstances, though, so some things that don't cave in now may in later versions. --[[User:Peristarkawan|Peristarkawan]] 12:56, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

::Sorry, but I don't understand what a disconnected area is. Could you try to explain? [[User:Sinoth|sinoth]] 12:50, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

:::A disconnected section doesn't connect to the rest of the map. As far as I know, that means it checks above, below, north, south, east, and west of a block of stone for connecting blocks, and continues checking through them to make sure the section isn't isolated. Toady mentioned something along the lines of it only checking for disconnects around the area you are mining. If the section is isolated, each block of the disconnected section will fall straight down. That's the general idea, I believe, and such disconnects are not easy to create. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 13:12, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

::::I can easily see how to create an isolated support, but how would you create an isolated room? The dwarves would have to get there somehow... Also, wouldn't an isolated room (with nothing on any side of it, including above) be less likely to collapse because there's nothing nearby to collapse into it? --[[User:Bobson|Bobson]] 13:49, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

:::::1. Build a box with constructed walls from the ground.
:::::2. Remove the construction connecting it to the ground.
:::::Also, an isolated room, would ''have'' to collapse, unless we've got anti-gravity-field-generators. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 14:59, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

:I've mined out several levels underground. Then I dug channels (carefully) around the edge of the top layer. Once the last channel section was finished... bam! Cave-in. Only, it didn't stop at the first level below. It kept going to the last level dug out, taking with it all the loose debris. If there are any BUILDINGS in the region that collapsed, they will break apart. --[[User:AzureLightning|AzureLightning]] 14:04, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
==Use hidden comments for "editors eyes only" info==
"Don't pay any attention to the information below this line! It is simply a placeholder!" - Why have it there if doesnt need to be? Take it away and re-add when something worthwhile is to be said. --[[User:Mizipzor|Mizipzor]] 17:51, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

==Large area collapses==
When building my underground farms with light access I had a lot of collapses but once the room was finished they ceased. There 8 by 8 and three floors down with open air access. I think a collapse happens if you have a room greater the 7x7 horizontally and more than 3 vertically. From what I've observed it seems like it only checks for a collapse every time a square is dug. --[[User:Lucid|Lucid]] 20:57, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

I dug an open pit in a sandy grassland region. The pit was 4x6 and one level below the surface. And yet, somehow I had a cave-in. It was minor, and only knocked my miner out for a few ticks, but I'm still trying to figure out why an open-air pit would register a cave-in. (In addition, nothing actually changed as far as the pit topography.) --[[User:RedKing|RedKing]] 01:58, 4 November 2007 (EDT)

:If you dig all the way around the edge then that causes a cave in, i.e if you make a C shape and then dig out the remaining wall the center will fall down. This will destroy any buildings underneath.[[User:Jikor|Jikor]]

== Avoiding ==

I removed the 7x7 info until someone can verify that it's relevant in the new version. I'd also be interested to know when rockslides or shearing happens. --[[User:Turgid Bolk|Turgid Bolk]] 16:44, 13 November 2007 (EST)

:I can confirm that the 7x7 thing ISN'T valid as of 39e. I've had a 10x20 room with two solid layers on top of it for years and it hasn't collapsed. Only three walls, too. --[[User:CrazyEyes|CrazyEyes]] 11:00, 06 August 2008 (PST)

On the safe collapse front, it might be worth noting that you can also take advantage of dust not passing diagonals to safely cause collapses without mechanics.--[[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]] 08:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

== Cave-Ins In and ice... ==

Cave ins aren't supposed to damage the floor below? Is this still valid? I found an occasion where they do.

As sometimes happens, one pond froze over on my map. I dug down under the ice, and removed the support from under an island in the centre of the pond. I also dug a room (crypt) under the pond.

When the ice melted come spring, the 'ground' on the surface of the pond lasted a few seconds before realising it should collapse, and when it DID collapse it punched a hole into the room BELOW the pond. I know the hole was punched there becase next winter the ice froze down to the room below ONLY in the tils right below where the cave in occured, the rest staying distinctly wet.

== Cave-ins and Ramps ==

I was under the impression that ramping the floor will dodge any cave in or isolation concerns that occur with channels, however, this is not the case, if a tile has water on it and is the last of adjacent tiles to be ramped there will be a cave-in. Is this due to water having weight and a feature or a bug?
--[[User:Stalinbulldog|Stalinbulldog]] 11:56, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
:Cave-ins also happen if you remove ramps from a tile where there is a tree on the "downward ramp". Problem is, the tree / other item isn't visible from the "upward ramp" (even though it is the "same thing").[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]][[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

== Confirmed ==

"Any item caught under falling natural terrain is encased in stone and must be dug out destroyed completely."
I saw this has a "Verify" next to it. I have a video that confirmed it(started a hermit challenge). Here is the link ->http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-1001#lastComment --[[User:0todd0|0todd0]] 01:04, 23 December 2008 (EST)

:I honestly don't see how this verifies the statement. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 00:31, 24 December 2008 (EST)

::I've verified that falling floor tiles will cause damage to whatever they hit but they don't destroy items. Falling walls will completely obliterate anything beneath them, with the exception of constructed walls which work like floor tiles. I've also noticed dust pushes items as well as units. Note that I'm using version 40d9. --[[User:Xonara|Xonara]] 00:54, 24 January 2009 (EST)

== Cave-in vs. objects ==

I'm pretty damn sure I've destroyed a unit of fire imp fat using a dropped (and constructed, no less) floor tile. 40d, too. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 19:21, 24 January 2009 (EST)
:IIRC the movie above shows some bituminous coal surviving some falling floor. I tested it with some kind of yellow stone and a mechanism and it didn't seem to destroy anything, just pushed the stuff around. Are you sure it didn't get pushed off a cliff or into some magma or something? I don't know :/ --[[User:Xonara|Xonara]] 04:32, 25 January 2009 (EST)
::It was nowhere near magma or cliff. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 12:37, 31 January 2009 (EST)
:::I've dropped cave-ins on buildings several times (trade depot occupied by elves loaded up with cloth, suicide booth lever linked to a support holding up the ceiling above it), and occasionally I lost an item or two. Constructed floors are definitely capable of destroying objects, just not consistently. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

== Cave-in vs. creatures ==

I have had many instances where my dwarf stands underneath a section of semi-support cave connected to the ceiling above him, and then survive mining out the supporting wall and have the ceiling fall on him. He was superdwarvenly tough, but this seems to contradict "Any creature caught under the falling material is crushed and killed." --[[User:FJH|FJH]] 13:24, 8 March 2009

Also, demons. At least SoF have [NOSTUN], so I'm curious if they will get stunned by cave-in-dust. Can someone test this? I don't have a demon chamber right now. [[User:MC Dirty|MC Dirty]] 08:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

"Death. Since a cave-in kills most creatures instantly, it can provide a convenient or amusing way to off a group of creatures." That appears later on in the article. It seems safe to just go with the cave-ins kill *most* creatures caught under them. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 00:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
:In a test embark on top of a Goblin tower, I orchestrated a cave-in directly above the (friendly) Demon who was the civilization's Ruler. He was killed instantly. In other tests, I've even squished HFS demons by collapsing the ceiling of their chamber on top of them. I'd say it's probably safe to assume that cave-ins are instantly lethal to all creatures. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

== Underground Forest ==
If you cause a cave in of a large tree populated area (7x10 in my case) the trees will remain intact once they drop a floor. I did not, however, play long enough to see if the trees regrow. [[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 13:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I caved in a very large area of 68x28 tiles. None of the trees survived the fall and no trees have regrown. The region did not have a high tree density but some should have survived. I also dropped another area (10x6) with the same results. Version 0.28.181.40d --[[Special:Contributions/71.145.167.39|71.145.167.39]] 04:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
:Did you drop soil ''walls'' or just floors? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 06:09, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

After some anecdotal testing on two different maps, I've come to this conclusion (v. 28 181 40d16):

Soil type, zone humidity (temperate, ect...) something has an effect on the regrowth of mined out areas without discovering an underground river.

Map #1- Temperate, heavily forested. Top soil was sand/loam/limestone. Had tower cap and plant regrowth in exposed, unflooded irrigation channels.
Map #2- Temperate, forested. Top soil is loam/rock salt. Zero regrowth in exposed, unflooded and flooded irrigation channels. Zero regrowth, or even survival of plant life beyond grass, when up to 6x6 areas of land were dropped 1 and 2 z-levels. No regrowth after flooding. No regrowth after covering areas with flooring tile.

'''Conclusion: '''If you want to test to see if you can grow an underground forest without an underground river, channel into the top soil and watch for regrowth. If you get none, dropping top soil down z-levels will not help.''''''

Other than the area covered by floor tile, I gave all these tests over 4 years to regrow. Interestingly, grass/dirt patterns do shift over time. But you won't get plant growth.

It could just be that native Tower Caps will regrow anywhere, while other wood types require an underground river period. --[[User:Nenjin|Nenjin]] 22:12, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

== Halting cave-ins ==
The article originally stated that only solid ground was sufficient to stop a cave-in from punching through the floor, suggesting that cave-ins would destroy constructed walls, though several tests indicate that constructed walls ARE sufficient to prevent a cave-in from punching through to a passage below (even if they were built over a channeled area with no floor), whether the cave-in consists of a constructed floors, constructed walls, or even natural stone, and they remain perfectly intact. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

== Vacuum? ==

I've been setting up an obsidian farm that involves (in my plan) many cave-ins to work. So I've been intentionally causing cave-ins, and they seem to create a vacuum that sucks the miner in. Let me try to diagram it for you:
Key:
. - floor
_ - channel/open space
X - miner

Upper Level:
. . . . X . . .
. _ _ _ . _ _ .
. _ . . . . _ .
. _ . . . . _ .
. _ . . . . _ .
. _ _ _ _ _ _ .

Lower Level:
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .

Lower level post-cave-in:
. . . . . . . .
. . . X . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .

Come to think of it, the diagram is kinda useless, but I enjoyed making it, so w/e. Any ideas on this oddity? Is this official? --[[User:Waladil|Waladil]] 15:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

40d Talk:Cave-in

2011-02-22T23:12:53Z

Icelizarrd: