Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

40d Talk:Trading

2008-11-06T01:16:43Z

KValthaliondil: Barge

== Consolidation of Trading, Trade Depot, Caravans, and Wagon ==

This needs wikification with some amounts of rewriting. I will give it a go. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 06:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Yea thanks, this is my first try at a wiki-page. sorry if it was crappy... --[[User:CombatWombat|CombatWombat]] 06:42, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Nah, there's no such thing as a crappy wiki edit, when its got content in it. Just remember to be bold, otherwise there would be nothing here. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 07:29, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Well this thread's a little old, but I re-wrote and consolidated some more information on this page. There was also some discussion of this on [[Talk:Caravan#Merge_this_into_Trading]]. If you don't approve, please don't just revert it, I organized and cleaned up a lot of the scattered info, so at the very least it should be split from where it is now on the Trading page to where it should ultimately go. --[[User:Marble Dice|Marble Dice]] 02:48, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

This article needs to be seperated. We dont find crafting and the craftdwarf workshop in the same article and the same goes here too. Trading is how to trade and what it means in this game. Trade depot is a construct. An encyclopedia defines things and as such we should define them seperately. It all needs to be organized as well. The flow chart is undefined and in the wrong section, etc.
Ill move some stuff around and work to clean some up now but nothing to radical at the moment... what do you think?
[[User:Iluziat|Iluziat]] 07:03, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

== Extraction from different articles ==

All the information on trading seems quite scattered now (Trade depot, Caravan, Dwarf, Elf, Human etc), and as most stuff is well written I think we should merge the trade sections to this one page and leave behind only refecences. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 08:29, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:Looking good, is there a 'your first caravan'-type tutorial anywhere we could link to? Something with advice on the sort of goods to prepare and what to buy for the first winter, with new players in mind. I'll try and find one somewhere. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, linked to the trade section in the new player guide. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::Done++ Someone else finish merging the information from Caravans into the page. Make sure to get that awesome Elf trader image. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 12:10, 28 January 2008 (EST)

== Haulers? ==
In my experience the "bring item to depot" tasks were performed by any dwarf, even without any hauling labors enabled. Can also be my imagination. I cannot check it for now, so, anyone, please verify.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:That's correct, as many times my pure crafters will stop crafting to haul goods to the depot, despite having only one or two production labors enabled. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:41, 28 January 2008 (EST)
::Is this similar to plant gathering where even non-working nobles and children will do it, or is it limted to any regular dwarf regardless of labour? --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 19:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:::Yes, nobles and children will haul stuff to the depot. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== Moving goods on afterwards ==

To get things ''out'' of the depot.... do I have to order them removed while the caravan is still around?
I have starving dwarves... and food going rotten in the depot![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)
:AFAIK, no. in my experience, anything bought is treated as like it's just lying there, not being traded.
Well, yes and no. Once trading is finished dwarves will start bringing the bought goods in while the caravan still is there. But you cant 'order' them to per se ;) Your own stuff that wasnt sold however will remain in depot till the caravan leaves. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 18:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Unless you go back into the {{k|g}}oods menu at the Depot and unmark them for trading. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 04:25, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I've a question in the same vein: I just traded for a truckload of goods, but the traders didn't even leave them in the depot! They just carried my goods out with them. Were my dwarves supposed to carry all of the goods back earlier? --[[User:Gh3yz0r|Gh3yz0r]] 14:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)

==Duplicate Page?==
The page "Caravan" has very similar information, though this "trading" page seems more complete.[Samyotix]

== culling on mandates ==

what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)
:I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)

== "everything is ruined now" ==
I just accidentally tried to trade the elves a wooden bin full of stone goods. Now ALL my stone goods, including ones not actually in that bin, are unacceptable. I ended up just seizing the rope I needed, but I'd like to know if this is a glitch, or if I just made them too angry to trade. —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shadow archmagi|Shadow archmagi]] ([[User talk:Shadow archmagi|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Shadow archmagi|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}
:It's not a glitch. Elves refuse to trade at all after you give them even a single wood or animal product. After you do that the trade option is locked until they come back to trade next year. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:52, 27 February 2008 (EST)
:The wooden bin told the elves you hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate animals. Don't trade dead trees or dead animal parts to elves. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 13:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

==Depot Access==
Not a single square on my map is accessible by the caravan. What should i do? --[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

EDIT: My bad. It seems that it shows every square as inaccessible if the depot is not fully constructed--[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading Margins ==
In regards to this submission:
"If you have a somewhat experienced broker or you already raised the traiders mood to pleased or above you can usually trade with marginal profit for them and you can also safely ignore their counteroffers, offering the same trade a second time, successfully."

You do realize that when they make a counteroffer they automatically add those counteroffer goods to the pot, right? Just making sure. Are you saying you go back through and remove each item their counteroffer added to your side of the deal? Seems much simpler to just stick to the ~50% rule of thumb, especially at the beginning with low skills and again once you reach the point of having so many trade goods that you can easily buy everything you need from each caravan with plenty of goods left over. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 14:55, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
: Yes, exactly. Whenever i get a counteroffer I remove all items from the list they added until their profit is back to what i deem fit, sometimes leaving a low value item, say, 50☼, they chose, if I wanted to trade it anyway. Since this is not a beginners guide page, I think it's wrong to advise people to a 50% profit margin that is much higher than necessary. Once the traders are happy, they will even agree to trading an anvil for an anvil. I tested this extensively because usually i want them to leave early and thus try to make them angry. Almost impossible. We could however add smth about the (suspected) advantages of having high export totals like bigger caravans, more immigrants, arrival of king. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 06:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
::The 50% rule of thumb is a good starting point either way. "Advanced" page or not, before I posted that, there was no guidance on what profit margin the visiting traders would generally accept, so that people were left to find out the hard way.
::Going back through a long list of your trade goods to hunt down and remove the items which the visiting trader added to the offer seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, unless you just have very few trade goods or a really tight budget at your fortress.
::As for being able to get away with lower margins once the trader is happy, that is definitely useful knowledge and could be expanded upon. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 12:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

There is no way to refuse a counter-offer, is there? The only option is to hit {{k|Enter}}, and the "goods are added to the pot" as you say ... correct? --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 09:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

:Correct, however, you're free to simply remove the additionally requested items and re-offer. In the case of a new trader in his first few trade sessions, this will likely work, as he gained experience (probably a LOT) just by offering. Even if it doesn't, as long as you don't repeat it many times (4+ I'd say) then there's no real risk of driving them off. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:16, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

::I find it easiest to commence one dwarf with novice valuer that way you already know prices... within the first trading I can usually get some items at straight trade (0% profit) maybe it depends on civilisation demands.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:14, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:::If you want a trade to succeed just make sure the trader gets 100-1000* profit. Almost every trade I made with this method was accepted. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:09, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

== Goblins butchering my caravans. ==

Every time I trade with the caravans, a goblin ambush comes and the merchants are all killed. Ive taken new measures to prevent this, but will merchants come back to trade? and what effect does their death have? —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wafl|Wafl]] ([[User talk:Wafl|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Wafl|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}

My caravans get shot up by goblins all the time. Then you get to loot their stuff. The caravans always seem to come back next year. [[User:Ripheus|Ripheus]] 22:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading flowchart ==

Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)

Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right
{|cellpadding="2" border="1"
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2| Make or obtain goods to trade || Build Depot ({{K|b}} - {{K|D}})
|-
| Ensure Depot is accessible ({{K|D}})
Check green area reaches edge of map
|-
| colspan=3 | Wait until a caravan arrives on the map
"A--- caravan from --- has arrived."
|-
| Set goods to be traded ({{K|q}} - {{K|g}}) || Request a trader ({{K|q}} - {{K|r}}) || Wait for caravan to reach the depot
"Merchants have arrived and are unloading their goods"
|-
| Wait for goods to be hauled || Wait for the trader to finish their other tasks and go to the depot || Wait for the rest of the caravan to reach the depot and be unloaded
|-
| colspan=3 | Begin actual trading ({{K|q}} - {{K|t}})
|}

Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... [[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]]

:Ask and ye shall receive
{|cellspacing=0 align=center
|-
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Arrive at fortress location
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Create Goods
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Build Depot
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Check Depot is accessible
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Set goods to be traded
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan to arrive at depot and merchants to finish unloading
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for goods to be hauled
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Request the trader at the depot and turn off his other labours
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Trade
|}
You'll note I shifted the location of requesting trader --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
:The above was the first draft. You can access the current version at [[Trading/Flowchart]]. Anyway, what I wanted to say was '''Re: Adeptable's changes'''
:I don't think the third branch is neccesary. For one, it makes it seem too wide, and secondary it implies that turning off the trader's labours ''all the time'' means that trading will happen faster - almost as if it will make merchants arrive more often. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 23:36, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

== Offerings ==

Can anyone expound on the function of {{K|o}}ffering goods as gifts to traders? I tried giving the elves about 1000 worth of tchotchkes, and the next year they showed up with more goods than I've ever seen -- lots of caged animals, whereas I usually get very few, and so on. However, other times I gave them more and it seemed nothing changed. [[User:Anydwarf|Anydwarf]] 12:01, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Gifts to the traders (and large trading profits) should increase the number of traders / wagons you get the following year, so they'll bring more stuff to trade. AFAIK no-one knows about the numbers for sure though. [[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Add hint: "Buy everything ... in case you get a strange mood"? ==

Personally I've found it very useful to do this:

When traders arrive,
a) optionally check stocks.
b) Buy everything you can't make or harvest in your own fort.
c) In the diplomat meeting, order everything you can't make or harvest.

To be specific: Thread, Silk, cloth, metal bars (anything else?).

The reason:
a) Dwarves sometimes demand items out of some metal or alloy they like.
b) Dwarves who are possessed or get a strange mood will sometimes demand silk or cloth.

Players who proactively (harr!) seek to stock materials for possible moods will IMO have much less of a problem with dwarves going insane from moods. However I couldn't figure out where (or if) I should insert that, so I'll just add this idea (adding a hint: buy everything you don't have) to the discussion.

Also, as far as I know, possessed/moody dwarves in the current version (27.176.38c) do not demand specific items. Rather, they want a) any metal bar b) any metal ore c) Silk d) Cloth e) wood f) raw gem g) any stone ... that was it, right?. So probably such a hint could read something like:

"NOTE: If your fortress cannot harvest silk, it would be useful to order some from the caravans. If you do not have a cloth industry yet, maybe order some cloth as well. Having a small stock of materials which you are not actively using in your economy - e.g. GCS silk - will increase the likelihood of your fortress gaining an artifact from any mood or possession."
[[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Clear the perimeter? ==

Is clearing the entire perimeter of the map really necessary? While my depot has been accessible at all, the caravan has '''always''' appeared at a point with access to the depot. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
:What the article says is:
:#Caravans enter the map from a random direction which does not coincide with the relative direction of the originating civilization,
:#they may appear from different directions or z-levels each year
:#they cannot use stairs
:#they may leave without trading if it takes too long to reach the trade depot
:With the above points in mind:
:#In order to guarantee perfect, permanent wagon accessibility, a three tile path must be cleared around the entire perimeter of the map, with at least one joining path from the border to the trade depot. Any parts of this path system which have grass must be paved with floor tiles, bridges, or roads to prevent trees from growing. Ramps must be used to adjust z-level elevation.

I have certainly had a depot accessible to the southern border, then had the human merchants only turn up with mules because they were approaching from a different direction.

The recommendations are how to ensure the human wagons turn up every summer (it also helps to remember to have your drawbridge down as soon as summer commences!) If you are not so concerned about human merchants then ignore the advice. If you don't have enough dwarf-power then ignore the advice. Some of it only needs to be done once (ie: adjusting slopes), and some of it just gives you more territory to consider for defending from invaders (being open to merchants also opens you to invaders).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:33, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

==Seizing goods==
"It is worth noting that in the Mac port (untested for other ports), you can simply remove the depot that the merchants are camped out on to recieve all their goods."

I can confirm that this also works in the PC version.[[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 14:07, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
:I believe this has been confirmed to cause the same ill will as seizing the items FWIW. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 18:01, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

== Empty caravans ==

human, elf, and dwarf caravans bringing me nothing.
is it possible to have a depot too full? --[[User:Eerr|Eerr]] 07:30, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:In recent versions of the game I've noticed that traders, after their initial visit, will only bring what was mentioned in your previous trade agreement with them. In earlier versions they'd bring all sorts of tat along too. Did you perhaps not request any goods for import? I don't imagine this could affect the Elves as well though. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 08:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

::Prior to the latest group of releases, I'd been getting empty caravans for a LONG time, Elves and Humans alike, and occasionally even the Dwarves. Hasn't happened to me in the e release yet though (hadn't spent too much time on the other releases). --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:13, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

== starvation ==

it must be because they brought food to my starving settlement
(dwarves will run out and get food straight from the caravan)

== Added a small bit. ==

I quickly changed the section about the possible exploit of deleting a trade depot from Mac-only-bug to an across the board phenomenon.

== Caravan at Inaccessible Depot ==

I assume it is related to the 3 wide path only showing as 1 green square, but the caravan has stopped at a trade depot that is listed as inaccessible. Does this mean that some trade depots will show bad with SHIFT-D but are actually okay? --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 21:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

:The three-wide path showing only one green square is, to my knowledge, correct. That green is the center of the path, along which the center of the wagon must align with to fit within the three-wide path. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 23:14, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

::Thanks. It'd be nice then if the Shift-D showed that as a caravan accessible depot then. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 01:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Correction: It does, there was a boulder in the way that I did not see. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 22:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

== 50% profit rule ==

This really, REALLY needs to be made clearer in the game. There's nothing wrong with the trader telling us how much profit he'd expect from our goods! I've got tens of thousands worth of goods that I haven't sold for two years straight because the bloody traders wouldn't tell me how much they want, and I didn't find the 50% rule buried in this article until just now! --[[User:Theory|Theory]] 09:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:It's hardly 'buried' in the article, it's certainly not a rule, and it is made pretty clear in the game. I'm not just trying to be contrary; let me explain: A skilled broker can routinely trade with only a thirty or twenty percent profit, even down to ten percent if the merchant is in a good mood. If the merchant wants more profit, he will either put forth a counter-offer or say "With your trade goods such as they are, I can't possibly imagine you getting all of those items." This seems like a pretty clear indication that he wants a bigger margin. As to its place in the article: a full half of the section titled "Trading" details the fifty percent suggestion. If you think it deserves increased prominence, I encourage you to edit it yourself. Them's my six cents. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 17:16, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:: afaik, traders will accept ''any'' profit, as long as they're not annoyed and also as long as you're not trying to buy 'high-tech' items like steel anvils or bars, with 'low-tech' items such as poorly crafted pieces of stone, bone etc [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 17:58, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Elves and dead stuff==

it seems elves will make counter-offers for dead stuff, like totems, bone and shell crafts... needs to be fixed imo [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 18:00, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Adamantium in trade window==

I've just noticed that Adamantine strands appear in my trade window in purple text despite them not being present at the depot and marked for trade. I'm fairly sure that this is something to do with mandates from the nobles (my broker has forbade the export of adamantine) but I can't find any mention of this on the Wiki, any thoughts? [[User:Extar|Extar]] 21:55, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
I did a bit more testing and the purple text is clearly to do with export bans, I'll add it to the mandate page. [[User:Extar|Extar]] 22:02, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

==They are selling dead animals?!==

I don't know if this is because my fortress is in the freezing tundra, but all caravans offer me cages with dead, butcherable corpses inside. I don't complain about this: There's no additional charge for them, and so I get free meat, fat, skins and bones. Does this happen in other biomes, too? --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 09:43, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Carvan over ? ==
Can someone please help me, I need to know if caravans can travel over traps in the latest version, and also if the people will get caught in them and die, and could whoever tests this please do it with all types of traps, not just one. Thank you in advance. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 15:57, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
:They have no problems with stone traps, cage traps, or weapon traps in my experience. :) Until the King started requesting them before he'd show up, I didn't bother with roads. I just paved the way to the edge with traps. One catch is that creatures who fall unconscious (and maybe randomly some dogs) will get caught in the traps. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 19:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

== Inaccessible Depot ==
What happens if a caravan arrives and you have no accessible depot at all? Do they pass you by? Do they wait around offscreen to give you a chance to build or expose one? My depot is underground, accessible only by a drawbridged path. I'd prefer to keep the bridge up (which means ''no'' access, foot or wagon), until I need it, but I don't want to miss a caravan. 
Also, what happens if, after the traders enter the map, the depot they are heading to becomes inaccessible? I could put a sacrificial depot outside to draw them in, then seal it up after opening my secure depot.--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:43, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I don't have first-hand experience with this, but I would say the second option is your best bet.{{verify}} Plus, you could make the second depot bait for a monster trap somehow. Just be sure that the traders can't get to the bait-depot by the time they get near it, or they'll unload there, and you'll have to haul the additional distance. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 16:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I've had a few caravans show up before I get a Trade Depot going a few times, because I have a tendency to over-engineer and get sidetracked. The text claims they 'bypass your inaccessable site', but when in all the times I've done this, they hang around a while and if I quickly build a Trade Depot, they'll happily come over and trade with me as though nothing ever happened. 
::While I can't be certain if a caravan will behave the exact same way if the depot is inaccessible instead of nonexistent, I'd be willing to bet that's the case. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 16:53, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I seem to remember that it's only the wagons that bypass you; traders using mules or other animals will stick around for a while, giving you a chance to build a depot.

::As for a "sacrificial" depot, I suspect that'll give them pathing freakouts, and they won't switch course to the "real" depot once the fake one is disassembled. I had a depot with a very narrow and twisty path once (there just happened to be one from the edge of the map), but when a large caravan with lots of wagons showed up, two of them got stuck in a dead end or something and never made it to the depot. They only let you trade once everyone's arrived, so the entire caravan left without trading anything.

::One thing you could try is keeping locked doors behind your depot to keep dwarves from going through it. When the traders show up, unlock the doors so you can do business; when the siegers show up, raise the bridge.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 18:32, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::I already plan to keep it locked off from the fortress when not in use. The thing is, if anything goes wrong with my stockpiles, things end up being left in the depot between traders. If it's accessable at all times, I'm liable to see thieves raiding it.
:::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:29, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

::::Put a few wardogs on restraints in the access tunnel. Restraints don't block wagon access.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 18:36, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

== Locking them In ==
What happens if you trap traders in the depot area and they want to leave? Does it count as attaching them? If the goblins show up, I have to to seal the bridges, whether the traders are gone or not. 
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:23, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
:As long as the traders don't go insane from you delaying them, you're most likely fine. That said, it'd probably behoove you to let them out regardless of the danger. If they have guards, the guards will go to town on the goblins. If they don't, they get slaughtered and you can claim everything they were holding, guilt-free.
:--[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:39, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
::''Emotioal'' guilt or ''political'' guilt? Doesn't a vanished caravan damage political relations even if I didn't kill them?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:42, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
:::I was referring to political guilt. It's possible that it does, but I have never noticed an ill effect, even though I've had about a half-dozen caravans meet their untimely end going to or from my fortresses. So if it does, it's minor, and a lot less inflammatory than doing it yourself.
:::--[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:44, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Hmm... If you attack a caravan and slaughter them all, leaving none to report what happened, does that count as 'vanishing mysteriously'? After all, there's no-one to say you did it.
::::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:00, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
:::: What if just drowned them all? The fallout should be the same as if they get killed by goblins: you haven't actually "attacked" them, they get killed by the "environment". [[User:Mattkorz|Mattkorz]] 16:45, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
::::: But this work in two way : The mountainhomes / human capital will know that your fortress was the last one visited, and won't know that merchants has been killed by "goblins" or "the environnement".
:::::Also, I'm pretty sure that in current version {{version|0.28.181.40d}}, killed merchants DO damage political relations : My immigration (along with merchants visits) stop for one or two year after a dwarven caravan has been attacked, and human sieged me when their diplomat died in an ambush. [[User:Timst|Timst]] 05:50, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

== Barge ==

I have a pic of traders floating down a brook. The Z-level below shows the water at a solid 7 deep everywhere.
[[Image:Barge.png]]

There are plenty of paths to my depot (including a bridge across the brook). I was wondering if anybody has seen anything like this before.
--[[User:KValthaliondil|KValthaliondil]] 20:16, 5 November 2008 (EST)

File:Barge.png

2008-11-06T01:11:18Z

KValthaliondil:

40d Talk:Wound

2008-11-03T23:43:45Z

KValthaliondil: Down, but not Out

==.33c bug==
My miner had a broken arm and was "resting" even though all he did was move back and forth on the screen and submit to starvation and dehydration. I set a dwarf to Health Care only, had buckets to spare, and nothing was done to care for the dwarf. As far as I'm concerned, in v.33c. Check out the pic below and the [http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-184-restlesswoundedminer movie] I have.

[[Image:Injury.png | none | frame | 500px | Injured dwarf spam.]]
[[User:Schm0|Schm0]] 18:31, 24 November 2007 (EST)

Happened to me too, also v.33c [[User:Klada|Klada]] 23:49, 1 December 2007 (EST)

:This bug has been fixed --[[User:Karlito|Karlito]] 23:50, 1 December 2007 (EST)

same thing is happening to me so i dont think it has... [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 12:54, 7 December 2007 (EST)

:Actually it has, as of 33d. You may need to download a new version. [[User:Klada|Klada]] 13:17, 7 December 2007 (EST)

== Priority of [[health care]] task ==

I think the game is a bit broken in that I can have a dwarf set with [[health care]] (I know it's a redlink) as their only active task, and rather than bring food to a dwarf who seems to only be moderately injured, but is now about to die from starvation - even though there is a stockpile of prepared meals 6 tiles away, and the other dwarves are resting in the same barracks![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 04:56, 12 February 2008 (EST)

== Brown Wounds ==

my legendary miner will not heal his brown wounds he must have been resting for a year now. What should I do? --[[User:Hoborobo|Hoborobo]] 06:54, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

:Well, have you seen where his injury is? It could be a nervous injury, which never heals (see the wound article, its really sad).

== healing speed ==
it seems that in the newest version(.38c) wounds heal at incredible speed - I watched my woodcutter fight batmen and get lightly wounded, was relieved that it was nothing worse, but when I checked back on him he was uninjured. So when my miner took on a wolf I kept a very close eye on him, and indeed he suffered moderate wounds and got a "rest" job, but the wound healed to lightly wounded before he even got back into the fortress and was gone by the time he reached his bed.--[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 00:30, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
: chances are they have a (very) high toughness? - this will cause exactly what you describe. Send a peasant recruit into battle and you will see the difference ;) --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 07:20, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
::Given that they were miners and woodcutters, they would become tough before they become even [[proficient]] in their trade. As mentioned by Koltom and indeed in the article, toughness has a huge effect both on the impact of being wounded (ie tough dwarves carry on regardless) AND on the rate of healing (they get better before they make it to their bed to rest).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 07:24, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
: I only had this once when I started a fortress in a desert without any water resources. Maybe this is a hack to prevent dwarves from dying from thirst? [[User:Qwertyu|Qwertyu]] 05:20, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

I've noticed something similar to this in .40c as well. One of my miners in a new fortress, who was at best merely 'tough' sustained a red injury to his hip which had completely disappeared a few minutes later. The only unusual thing I did was draft all seven dwarves into the army first and then make them civilians after the skeletal goat was dead. I don't think the miner had even made his way to a bed to rest before this miraculous healing.[[User:Extar|Extar]] 16:06, 25 August 2008 (EDT)
: I believe every season there is a chance of a red wound healing. Perhaps he had extraordinarily high toughness and you got lucky? --[[User:Squeegy|Squeegy]] 19:53, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

== Nervous system damage ==

I have a guard with minor neck and brain injuries, so he won't spar any more. However, he is a Talented Hammerdwarf, Skilled Armor User, and Proficient Shield User (only Novice Wrestler), so I reallocated him to use a crossbow and he does infact shoot at the archery range. This could be a good way to improve troops and get Marksdwarves that might be vaguely effective in melee combat should it come to that. He's also already Mighty, Very Agile, and Tough.

I'm thinking of adding the following to the Healing section of this page, at the end of the paragraph starting with "Wounds to the nervous system...":

"A hammerdwarf with light injuries to the nervous system may no longer spar, but will train as a Marksdwarf if allocated to use a crossbow. This can be useful given that a Marksdwarf entering melee combat uses the hammerdwarf skill to bash enemies with their crossbow. They hopefully would have also trained as Wrestlers, Armor Users, and Shield Users which will help their survival rate."

Thoughts? --[[User:TimE|TimE]]

:Seems a bit too niche to be in the article as general advice. Perhaps a generality made from that idea would be appropriate however. something like "dwarves with nervous injuries too severe to be a melee fighter may still be valulable as a Marksdwarf." --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:59, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:: I think this applies to dwarves with ''any'' nervous injuries. I like the concise version though, I'll add that. --[[User:TimE|TimE]] 00:56, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

== Color of Wounds ==
I think that lightly wounded and lopped off are too close of a color. The lopped off color should be pink, a nice bright color with eye attracting color. This way I can tell whether or not to pay attention to that individual.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 19:44, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

:I agree with you on that, try making a topic in the forums about it. Toady might change it.--[[User:Richards|Richards]] 21:18, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

== Spleen, kidney etc. ==

What about spleen, liver, kidneys etc ? Do they belong to "guts" ? [[User:Timst|Timst]] 10:19, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== New version and light wounds ==

The new version and its possibility for messed up temps means that all organs can now be in all states of wounded-ness. That means you can get lightly wounded hearts and guts and lungs... etc.

Note that this is due to extreme frostbite, not heat.

[[User:Logical2u|Logical2u]] 23:36, 19 July 2008 (EDT)

== wounded but not resting ==

I have a dwarf who has a yellow head wound and a red upper leg wound. In the {{k|u}} screen he shows as '''No job''', on his wound status screek ({{k|v}}{{k|w}}) he is unconscious, hungry, dehydrated and drowsy.

If he is unconscious then he is not resting. I take it he is not going to trigger any health care jobs: so does this mean he is doomed?
[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 07:29, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
:He ended up dying. It seemed inevitable given that becoming unconscious seems to cancel resting.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 04:28, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
:I have a guard who's doing the same. Red lung wound and he's still trying to make his rounds as a guard. On the other hand, his toughness seems to be high enough that he's not dying from it... He rested when he was initially wounded (sparring) but got up because he was thirsty. He fell unconscious once in the process, but managed to slake his thirst. And then got up and grabbed his equipment. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 21:27, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
::FWIW, this guard lasted two more years limping along with a red lung until he finally died making a suicidal charge during a goblin siege. Îton Koganûker earned himself his own little decorated burial niche for his hardheaded service. Incidentally, I looked back at him and he actually had not toughness mods, so a regular dwarf survived three years with a red lung and might have survived longer if not for the charge. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 12:43, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== broken leg ==

can a dwarf with a broken leg still get around to work?
:Unfortunately, no. Anything worse then moderately wounded causes the dwarf to go sleep it off until its healed. However, ''eventually'' it will heal up and he can go back to work. --[[User:Toloran|Toloran]] 02:32, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

I have 3 dwarves who are very injured, and seem to be refusing to move, I deactivated their squad status, but none are unconcious, and none of the dwarves at ALL are helping them for some reason, they just keep walking over them, ignoring them.

== Broken brain? ==

I just got a kobold trapped in my hall of spiky death, and on its wound list was a yellow(broken) brain. I suppose that means it's going to die very soon, but it seems to be fine to me... --[[User:Cypress|Cypress]] 18:21, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

== Blind dwarf suffers nightmares of constant attack ==
I have a dwarf with a lopped off left eye and right eye (and throat? how's he still suffering??) that is convinced that he's still under attack.
He's litterally spamming with over 1000 messages that he's canceling rest: interrupted by goblin crossbowman. In the 200-300 message range it was amusing. At this point, I'm only hoping that he shuts up when another dwarf drags him off to a bed for some rest. [[User:AmisiBastet|AmisiBastet]] 14:29, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
:Put him out of his misery. In style. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 21:43, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
::How? The last of the goblin ambushes for that season shut him up for me. But I don't know how to kill off one of my own dwarves. Well... not intentionally anyway. Especially when he's so busy being unconsious that he's constantly interrupting his rest due to the memory of being shot at by a goblin. I think he got up to about 3000 messages. All his minor wounds healed up too. His head was still mangled (red) with his eyes & throat lopped off (grey). Well, until the goblin finished him off anyway. [[User:AmisiBastet|AmisiBastet]] 22:50, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
:::For future reference, you can kill one of your dwarves off by dropping a constructed floor on him. Thus, it makes some sense to make bedrooms with a way to drop floor tiles on the beds. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 23:32, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Two words: Lava. Failing that, I usually went with GreyMaria's method and just tunnel out over the head of the wounded dwarf, and built/demolished floors atop him until dead. Too bad you can't build on bridges...I'd have an infirmary kept niiice and warm by a lava pit. --[[User:Eddie|Eddie]] 00:47, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
:::::LOL I wish! Poor guy collapsed above ground, about 7 steps away from the entrance to the fortress. And as for dealing with any other dwarves... I've found the lava, but they're pretty stubborn about not wanting to dig anywhere near it anymore. These bunch also seem to be only seasonal-miners too. They practically refuse to dig durring the winter & are reluctant to dig in the fall. Which leaves me to spring & summer for any fortress improvements that don't involve construction or engraving. They like farming and they like engraving. Canceling those tasks doesn't even seem to encourage them to dig. They'd rather sit around with no job than go dig out rooms near the lava. Boy, ya loose 1 dwarf to a random fire-man and the dig designations never get worked on! [[User:AmisiBastet|AmisiBastet]] 00:46, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
: As fun as it is to off wounded dwarves [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=25815.0 this thread on the message board] alleges that destroying the bed may end the message spam. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 17:41, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
:: Thanks for the link. I'd post there but for some odd reason my browsers won't let me register on that forum. I keep getting redirected back to the index. I can't even read the help on registering because that also redirects me back to the index. Regardless, you are correct that in my case the dwarf had not reached a bed. I think in my case it was that the goblin crossbowman that had attacked that dwarf, had later fallen into a cage trap and hadn't been killed (or left the map) yet. I've a bit of a backlog on goblins waiting to use my drowning rooms.

==Animal Wounds==
How fast can animals (e.g. leopards) heal wounds? Because I have a leopard which has minor injuries on the brain, heart, lungs and guts, and I want to use it to guard my fort (i feel like im gonna be sieged soon).--[[User:Stinhad Limarezum|Stinhad Limarezum]] 08:34, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
:I'm fairly certain animals can only be healed via the animal caretaker labor. I had a cat with a mangled leg for 3 years before it stumbled into a weapon trap full of looted pikes. If the creature isn't assigned to anyone, the dwarf that trained the leopard can caretake it. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 08:44, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

:I've never studied the mechanics of animal caretaking, but I've gotten the impression that it's a "free" task -- any time your caretaker crosses paths with a wounded animal, the animal has a chance to get better. Try turning on caretaking on all your dwarves. The leopard might need to be uncaged in order for the caretaking to take place.

:But a guardian leopard alone is not going to be enough against a siege. For that, you want at least a dozen wardogs, or a set of traps at least six deep at all entrances (ten deep if they're "mere" stone traps), or some decent marksdwarves -- five or more is best, because at just the wrong moment, half of them will wander off to drink or sleep (or reload). A single champion with top-quality armor and weapon and very high shield user, armor user, and wrestling skills can potentially take out a whole squad by him or herself, but that takes about two or three years worth of sparring (with another champion) and you better hope they don't get spinal injuries or they'll stop training altogether.

:Barring that, use dogs if you got 'em, traps if you don't. And build traps anyway. You can secure a fortress in a couple of months using a couple of mechanics. And you won't get hit by an actual goblin siege until you have 80 dwarves, supposedly, though "ambushes" of about 8 goblins can come much sooner.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 19:29, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

:Well, I did get sieged, but my army decimated the ugly gobbos before they could even come close (theres a load of blood near the norhern edge now) so the leopard was of no use. Talking of ward dogs, being an idiot, I went and made most of my dogs available for pets before I realised that pets cant be trained. Luckily a pair of stray puppies grew up a day before the siege but the two war dogs which i trained were too slow and the battle was over before they reached. About the animal caretaker, I do have one but he isn't really doing anything about the leopard (and a fox which i also bought from the elves, also with same injuries) --[[User:Stinhad Limarezum|Stinhad Limarezum]] 23:51, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
::I'm fairly certain from my experiences that animal caretaking only applies to animals that 'belong' to the caretaker. The only dwarf with any skill in caretaking I've had has been my dungeon master because he has trained over a dozen wardogs that haven't been assigned elsewhere yet. Meanwhile my champions have wardogs and cats that have been mangled for years. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 08:48, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

:::I've seen animals on chains healed -- by whom, I don't know. It may just be that dwarves are more likely to heal their own pets since said pets are always in their vicinity.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 19:44, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Apparently any caged animal you buy has minor wounds on the brain, heart, lungs and guts. I bought a jaguar, another leopard and a rhesus from the elves and all have the same injuries.--[[User:Stinhad Limarezum|Stinhad Limarezum]] 21:39, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
:::::I bought a black bear cage and it didn't have any wounds, could it be that the elves are traveling through a hostile region to reach your fortress? [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 08:23, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

:::::Are you in a cold region? Maybe they got frostbitten on the trip to the depot.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 11:22, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

== Down, but not Out ==

Something I noticed earlier today: Late in my first winter, one of my dwarves was injured while sparring with swords. His leg was yellow, no blood anywhere to be seen, and he was literally right next to a bed. He would not accept any jobs, wouldn't climb into bed to rest, eat, drink water, and nobody else would help him. He lay on the floor for a few months until he got really dehydrated and fell unconscious. Finally somebody drug him to the bed and is now bringing him water. I also noticed that "He is socially crippled by thoughts that everybody is watching and judging him" in his profile. Too mistrusting of help until he is unable to say no (finally fell unconscious). I'm hoping for a full recovery now that he is accepting help. [[User:KValthaliondil|KValthaliondil]] 18:43, 3 November 2008 (EST)