Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

40d Talk:Screw pump

2009-09-02T16:58:10Z

Keesto: /* /fail at pump stacking. */

{{archive|
#[[Talk:Screw pump|Current discussion]]
#[[Talk:Screw pump/archive1|Archive1]]
}}

== Archiving ==

See [[/archive1]] for discussions before July '08.
Most discussion was regarding page development which has been implemented. There are a few comments which might help people trying to work things out but most of it is in the article.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:56, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

==Two versions of the L-shaped tunnels design==
As I said when I removed it, there is no point having two. Do not add mine back in again. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 21:57, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

You'd also cut how to set up water wheels & connect them to the pump tower. I wasn't 100% certain how to diagram connecting the wheels to the smaller tower design so I thought it best to restore the whole section until someone added that into the L-shape design. [[User:Calenth|Calenth]]

== Pumping Magma? ==

Would this work if the pump was made of magma-safe materials? --[[User:Mizzy|Mizzy]] 21:10, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

:Please check a talk page's [[Talk:Screw_pump/archive1#Materials_for_magma_pumps|archives]] before asking a question. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 02:46, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:An edit to the [[Stupid dwarf trick]] page implied that only the blocks need be made of magma-safe materials. This needs to be studied further. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 17:28, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
::I have been building magma pumps out of wood (pipe/screw) and stone blocks for ages now; there are no detrimental effects. Since non-bauxite/non-raw adamantine stones are not magma safe, presumably a wooden block will work as well (a waste of logs if you have stone, though). It is only an issue if any part of the pump (namely, the walkable end) is going to be submerged in magma. You're probably working with a poor design if your pumps are submerged in what they're pumping, but whatever. In that case your best bet is to use green glass tubes/screws/blocks, if you have sand. Metal is a last resort. --[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 20:59, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
:::Wait - glass is magma-safe? what's its melting point? [[User:Random832|Random832]] 23:29, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Glass itself appears to be hardcoded and from what I can tell does not have a melting point. Pretty sure glass is magma safe. I have never had problems with it. It's a nice way to get infinite tubes and corkscrews. --[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 23:27, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Just tried to build a pump using a nickel block with a wooden screw and a wooden tube. All it created was a huge mess and a bit of smoke and fire. Luckily, the pump is separated enough from my fort that I can just let the magma cool before moving back in.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 00:57, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
:Did you make sure the magma coming out of the pump (on the same z-level of the pump) couldn't go back around and over the back of the pump? [[User:Random832|Random832]] 08:56, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::Hmm...actually, I had to cut a whole because the dwarf who constructed it had the bright idea to get himself stuck by standing on the walkable tile. I guess maybe I should put a door there to allow access while blocking the magma next time to make sure it work.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 12:59, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::Tested this again. There is no problem using a wooden Archimedes screw (giant wood screw+giant pipe) to pump magma as long as the block used is magma proof and magma does not leak around to the passable tile. The second that happens, though, the pump bursts into flame.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 02:29, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
:::Upon further testing, it seems that wooden magma pumps can work, but only for so long. As soon as the magma reaches a certain height, it burns up the wood and pushes the burn-proof block out of the way. I just lost about 10 worker dwarves in a accident trying to create an above ground lava cistern for my glass fortress, as soon as it reached an average level of about 5, the pump gave way. Between those deaths and the ones from the recent goblin ambush, I fear my fortress will devolve into madness and tantrums any day now. ADDENDUM: I would also like to add that the magma has just ''burned a hole through 2 z-levels of sand'' and is now flooding my workshops. It seems that the red liquid deserves a lot more respect and caution in the latest release. --[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]]

== Self powered pumps ==

So I'm just starting a new fortress, its got everything but an easy to make moat, but there is a river start to the east a little and two or three levels lower than my entrance. So, what I'm wondering is, is there some easy way to get a hydraulic powered pump going off of the power of the water being pumped (after the dwarves do the initial pumping). Also if anyone has diagrams or something of how to easily bring water up two or three levels (or possibly higher if theres some advantage to having water fall from a height). Sorry if this is kind of stupid or answered or anything, last time I played the game it had 1 level and I never got too much into mechanics farther than floodgates (lots of complicated and redundant floodgates as I recall) so I've never tried a pump or waterwheel. I'd rather not screw up this map (its just short of perfect, major magnemite deposits with limestone being the main component to the mountain overall, access to every civ, its Cold [I'm from Canada so I like the cold], has good hunting and a major river start). Thanks --[[User:Lowlandlord|Lowlandlord]] 15:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

:Place a waterwheel in the original river to supply power. You can raise water multiple levels by the methods described [[Screw_pump#Multiple_Levels|here]]. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 20:01, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
::Thanks --[[User:Lowlandlord|Lowlandlord]] 01:57, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Note that if you bring the water up higher than the moat, it '''will''' (not might. will.) overtop your moat. That's a good way to flood your fortress. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 16:07, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

An example of the [[Screw_pump#Multiple_Levels|multi-level pump]] including power source, gear assemblies and axles would pretty much make my entire month. Anyone up to the challenge? Pretty please? [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 22:09, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Wait, the stacked pumps transmit power upwards ''through themselves''? I didn't realise that - if it's true, then the whole L-shaped tunnels section is unrequired and should probably be removed. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 06:05, 6 November 2008 (EST)

: I've been playing around with this for the last week or so. I completely missed the bit where you need to have a channel underneath the front end of the pump in order for power to transmit (you put the channel under the front end so that the pump blocks the water). You can also draw water from a stairway or into a stairway. And since water pressure will push water up z-levels, you don't actually need to stack your pumps. In other words:

0-lvl all others levels
~www~ ..... www a waterwheel
..|.. ..... | pumps from
.#V#. .###. v the north
.#X#. .#X#. X into up/down stairway
.###. .###. # surrounded by walls
..... .....

That should work for a substantial height. Sadly, my current river is filled with carp, so I won't be able to find out for a while. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 08:49, 6 November 2008 (EST)

:Pumps only push fluids up to their height. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 21:47, 28 November 2008 (EST)

== Front vs rear ==

Do I understand correctly that the 'front' tile (i.e. blocks water flow) is the one where the water comes out of?

Sort of - it actually just 'spawns' water in the tile on the opposite side of that tile from the rear walkable tile, an amount equal to that which is removed a z-level down. --[[User:Sukasa|Sukasa]] 16:19, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

But either way, the output side blocks flow (so if in a narrow channel water cannot backflow through the pump if it is turned off), right? I need to know this for a design. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 16:31, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

: Yes, you are correct. I too was confused by the use of the word "front", as my perception is that the "front" of a pump would be where the water goes in, not out. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 04:14, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

== Alternate vs. other ==

Alternate generally means "in turn" or "in place of" -- not "as an alternative".[http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000296.htm][http://cjrarchives.org/tools/lc/alt.asp] But "alternative" can have its own problems,[http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/alternate.html] which is why I would recommend "other uses" here.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:05, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

:While I appreciate the need for clarity, I don't think either word particularly changes the scope, knowledge, breadth or content of the page. I suggest that both words work equally well. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 21:31, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

::May I ask for people's permission, then, to change it to 'other'? The function of the page may not be substantially affected by it, but I hate to be unable to correct what I understand to be an error. 'Course, if no one agrees, I'll let it drop.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 11:28, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

:::I support other! [[User:Milskidasith|Milskidasith]] 14:09, 11 November 2008 (EST)

== Pump + Stairs = Win? ==

Is there any reason why I can't use the stairs as the open space that I'm pumping water from?

Side View Top Views Key
###### ######
#v->__ #v->^# -> or <- : Direction of pump
#^<-v# ###### v : down stairs
#v->^# #^<-v# ^ : up stairs
#^<-v# ###### # : Wall
____^# _ : space

I came up with this right after exiting the game. I'll try it out soon. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 10:02, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

:No reason you couldn't, but it'd be rather silly as your dwarves can't walk through the pump. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 08:58, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

== /fail at pump stacking. ==

I'm trying to construct a pump stack as shown in figure 2, which says 'notice how the front of the pump doesn't need a floor'. If I have open space there, it says it's blocked, 'needs ground or near machine'. I can't build the bottom one to go up. So I tried the top down; same problem. To (badly) diagram it vertically; (_= floor, .= space, %=front of pump over space, @=pump on solid floor) 

.@@_ <- Pumps from left to right onto solid floor
_@%. <- right to left.
.%@_ <- left to right.
wmwm <-water

I can't build any of the pumps if either of their Xs are sitting over an open space. If I build a gear, it won't let me build on top of it. The diagram doesn't seem to show a need for gears, anyway, which is what I was trying to do. Just for laughs, I closed off one of the two holes on the bottom, built the pump and had someone pump it. It quickly (Almost immediately) filled the room with 1/7 water, so I got that right... how do I build the next level up so it connects to the one below, then the one on the surface that will begin the perpetual motion through the attached waterwheel? Trying to give the ungrateful little buggers a waterfall in the statue garden...--[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 01:41, 30 November 2008 (EST)
:Ok, I now got the whole stack built...for some reason, it wouldn't let me when I tried it previously, but now I have it going... but they don't seem to all operate when one is manually pumped to prime. --[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 02:12, 30 November 2008 (EST)
:Or when temporarily powered with a windmill. As soon as the gear and axle gets wet, it stops working. With three guys pumping, the waterfall runs for a little bit, half flooding the statue garden. :-p Why are they not connecting to power each other vertically?

You need to put the power-transfer hole under the output end of the pump. The impassable part will prevent backflow. Also, from your diagram it looks like the top pump isn't getting a power hole while the bottom onw is. Thta should be reversed. --[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 08:35, 30 November 2008 (EST)

:Aargh. I tore the whole thing down, built floors over everything, then very, very carefully figured out where I needed holes. I removed the floors so that the dark green Xs were over the open spaces above the light green Xs of the pump below, and still nothing. I gave up on the water wheel idea because I didn't have enough vertical space to channel beneath it, so I set up a windmill on a roof on top of built walls above the top pump, very carefully making sure to leave space above the dark green X on the pump... and STILL nothing. -- Hm. Just went to tear down the windmill and it says 'has 20 power, need 30'. (Spends two hours fiddling around adding walls in the wrong place, tearing them down, rebuilding them, convincing a bunch of doofuses to move the mechanism that is there to make a gear out of the way of the axle) Success! Finally got it... was a lack of power. One dwarf is capable of running one pump (until he nearly drowns himself. :p) but apparently they don't run each other in that configuration. That's what was foozling me. And yes, I screwed up on what I diagrammed above...which was part of the problem. The diagram was accurate to what I'd built...(Edited to add what I forgot: Thanks for the help, Bilkinson. :D) --[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 05:51, 1 December 2008 (EST)

== Structure around stacked pumps? ==

I also /fail at pump stacking. I keep getting "no access". Could someone please explain the structure needed around the pump so that another pump can be built on top of it? --[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 15:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

== Pump Rate ==

Does anyone have a good estimate of the pump rate? It doesn't have to be accurate 7ths of a tile per step, but maybe enough to say "if you're building a waterfall that is x tiles across, and the fall is fed from a reservoir of y tiles, you need z pumps operating to maintain constant water flow, and z pumps operating to keep the upper reservoir full" or something...
--[[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 00:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

== Water Purifying / Desalting ==
Can someone better explain how exactly one must dig/build a water purifier to turn salt water into drinkable water? My last 3 tries have failed miserably...[[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 03:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I just built an entire zone out of wood and stone, it stands free of all walls. I dug a chasm out for the entire thing, I even built the floor of the screw pump out of wood floor just to be safe. The moment I turned that pump on it was salt water (double ~) so I don't know how old this information is but unless I'm missing something you cannot de-salt water with a screw pump [[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 09:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I figured it out. I added a video to make sure there is no confusion on how to do this for newbies. [[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 00:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

== "Natural" walls and floors ==

''Salt water pumped through a pump will become drinkable if then kept separate from natural walls, natural floors, other salt water or an aquifer.''

I dug out a reservoir, pumped some water into it, and put a well on top of it. The dwarves drank from the well. I didn't build the reservoir's walls or floor. I just dug them out. I didn't even smooth them down. They are natural.

What is meant by "natural" walls and floors?[[User:LogicalDash|LogicalDash]] 02:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

:Afaik, exactly what you have described. Did you have any "salt" water anywhere? (You didn't mention it, so I have to ask.) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

== Water Containment ==

The uses of pumps to contain water pressure have been discussed extensively, but what about using pumps to transmit mechanical power into an area without allowing water to flow out at all?

Axles run into both sides of the pump. The impassible square of the pump prevents water flowing from the right (submerged) to the left (unsubmerged), while the pump transmits power from one axle to the other. I know this is a simple concept, but it took me a while to think of it - and when most of this system has to be submerged in pressurized water, it's rather nice to be able to block water entirely, and I think the concept merits a section on the page (whether it works or not, actually).

('#'=stone wall, '='=dry axle, '-'=submerged axle, '%%'=pump, pumping from the left to the right (so active, but accomplishing nothing because the left is entirely dry))

########
===%%---
########

I'm setting up for a test run; I'll report results shortly, I hope.
--[[User:Cowmage|Cowmage]] 17:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:This does work, even under significant pressure. I'll add it to the 'alternate uses' section. --[[User:Cowmage|Cowmage]] 22:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

==No Flow to Diagonals==

Due to space constrains, I tried pulling off this scenario:

.#### #%%=# #####

('#'=stone, '.'=level land, '='=floor bars over channel, '%'=pump from right to left)

The the pump would not output to the diagonal level land, so I had to modify my plans somewhat. Should this be noted somewhere? [[User:Jaaz|Jaaz]] 17:30, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
:Your diagram is unclear, but if that's a side view then it's known (and noted) that water does not flow diagonally up or down. If that's a top view, it's ''clearly'' stated that a pump requires 4 tiles in a row - not in a diagonal.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

40d Talk:Screw pump

2009-09-02T15:20:44Z

Keesto: /* /fail at pump stacking. */

{{archive|
#[[Talk:Screw pump|Current discussion]]
#[[Talk:Screw pump/archive1|Archive1]]
}}

== Archiving ==

See [[/archive1]] for discussions before July '08.
Most discussion was regarding page development which has been implemented. There are a few comments which might help people trying to work things out but most of it is in the article.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:56, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

==Two versions of the L-shaped tunnels design==
As I said when I removed it, there is no point having two. Do not add mine back in again. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 21:57, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

You'd also cut how to set up water wheels & connect them to the pump tower. I wasn't 100% certain how to diagram connecting the wheels to the smaller tower design so I thought it best to restore the whole section until someone added that into the L-shape design. [[User:Calenth|Calenth]]

== Pumping Magma? ==

Would this work if the pump was made of magma-safe materials? --[[User:Mizzy|Mizzy]] 21:10, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

:Please check a talk page's [[Talk:Screw_pump/archive1#Materials_for_magma_pumps|archives]] before asking a question. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 02:46, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:An edit to the [[Stupid dwarf trick]] page implied that only the blocks need be made of magma-safe materials. This needs to be studied further. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 17:28, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
::I have been building magma pumps out of wood (pipe/screw) and stone blocks for ages now; there are no detrimental effects. Since non-bauxite/non-raw adamantine stones are not magma safe, presumably a wooden block will work as well (a waste of logs if you have stone, though). It is only an issue if any part of the pump (namely, the walkable end) is going to be submerged in magma. You're probably working with a poor design if your pumps are submerged in what they're pumping, but whatever. In that case your best bet is to use green glass tubes/screws/blocks, if you have sand. Metal is a last resort. --[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 20:59, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
:::Wait - glass is magma-safe? what's its melting point? [[User:Random832|Random832]] 23:29, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Glass itself appears to be hardcoded and from what I can tell does not have a melting point. Pretty sure glass is magma safe. I have never had problems with it. It's a nice way to get infinite tubes and corkscrews. --[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 23:27, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Just tried to build a pump using a nickel block with a wooden screw and a wooden tube. All it created was a huge mess and a bit of smoke and fire. Luckily, the pump is separated enough from my fort that I can just let the magma cool before moving back in.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 00:57, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
:Did you make sure the magma coming out of the pump (on the same z-level of the pump) couldn't go back around and over the back of the pump? [[User:Random832|Random832]] 08:56, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::Hmm...actually, I had to cut a whole because the dwarf who constructed it had the bright idea to get himself stuck by standing on the walkable tile. I guess maybe I should put a door there to allow access while blocking the magma next time to make sure it work.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 12:59, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::Tested this again. There is no problem using a wooden Archimedes screw (giant wood screw+giant pipe) to pump magma as long as the block used is magma proof and magma does not leak around to the passable tile. The second that happens, though, the pump bursts into flame.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 02:29, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
:::Upon further testing, it seems that wooden magma pumps can work, but only for so long. As soon as the magma reaches a certain height, it burns up the wood and pushes the burn-proof block out of the way. I just lost about 10 worker dwarves in a accident trying to create an above ground lava cistern for my glass fortress, as soon as it reached an average level of about 5, the pump gave way. Between those deaths and the ones from the recent goblin ambush, I fear my fortress will devolve into madness and tantrums any day now. ADDENDUM: I would also like to add that the magma has just ''burned a hole through 2 z-levels of sand'' and is now flooding my workshops. It seems that the red liquid deserves a lot more respect and caution in the latest release. --[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]]

== Self powered pumps ==

So I'm just starting a new fortress, its got everything but an easy to make moat, but there is a river start to the east a little and two or three levels lower than my entrance. So, what I'm wondering is, is there some easy way to get a hydraulic powered pump going off of the power of the water being pumped (after the dwarves do the initial pumping). Also if anyone has diagrams or something of how to easily bring water up two or three levels (or possibly higher if theres some advantage to having water fall from a height). Sorry if this is kind of stupid or answered or anything, last time I played the game it had 1 level and I never got too much into mechanics farther than floodgates (lots of complicated and redundant floodgates as I recall) so I've never tried a pump or waterwheel. I'd rather not screw up this map (its just short of perfect, major magnemite deposits with limestone being the main component to the mountain overall, access to every civ, its Cold [I'm from Canada so I like the cold], has good hunting and a major river start). Thanks --[[User:Lowlandlord|Lowlandlord]] 15:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

:Place a waterwheel in the original river to supply power. You can raise water multiple levels by the methods described [[Screw_pump#Multiple_Levels|here]]. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 20:01, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
::Thanks --[[User:Lowlandlord|Lowlandlord]] 01:57, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Note that if you bring the water up higher than the moat, it '''will''' (not might. will.) overtop your moat. That's a good way to flood your fortress. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 16:07, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

An example of the [[Screw_pump#Multiple_Levels|multi-level pump]] including power source, gear assemblies and axles would pretty much make my entire month. Anyone up to the challenge? Pretty please? [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 22:09, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Wait, the stacked pumps transmit power upwards ''through themselves''? I didn't realise that - if it's true, then the whole L-shaped tunnels section is unrequired and should probably be removed. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 06:05, 6 November 2008 (EST)

: I've been playing around with this for the last week or so. I completely missed the bit where you need to have a channel underneath the front end of the pump in order for power to transmit (you put the channel under the front end so that the pump blocks the water). You can also draw water from a stairway or into a stairway. And since water pressure will push water up z-levels, you don't actually need to stack your pumps. In other words:

0-lvl all others levels
~www~ ..... www a waterwheel
..|.. ..... | pumps from
.#V#. .###. v the north
.#X#. .#X#. X into up/down stairway
.###. .###. # surrounded by walls
..... .....

That should work for a substantial height. Sadly, my current river is filled with carp, so I won't be able to find out for a while. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 08:49, 6 November 2008 (EST)

:Pumps only push fluids up to their height. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 21:47, 28 November 2008 (EST)

== Front vs rear ==

Do I understand correctly that the 'front' tile (i.e. blocks water flow) is the one where the water comes out of?

Sort of - it actually just 'spawns' water in the tile on the opposite side of that tile from the rear walkable tile, an amount equal to that which is removed a z-level down. --[[User:Sukasa|Sukasa]] 16:19, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

But either way, the output side blocks flow (so if in a narrow channel water cannot backflow through the pump if it is turned off), right? I need to know this for a design. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 16:31, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

: Yes, you are correct. I too was confused by the use of the word "front", as my perception is that the "front" of a pump would be where the water goes in, not out. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 04:14, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

== Alternate vs. other ==

Alternate generally means "in turn" or "in place of" -- not "as an alternative".[http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000296.htm][http://cjrarchives.org/tools/lc/alt.asp] But "alternative" can have its own problems,[http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/alternate.html] which is why I would recommend "other uses" here.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:05, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

:While I appreciate the need for clarity, I don't think either word particularly changes the scope, knowledge, breadth or content of the page. I suggest that both words work equally well. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 21:31, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

::May I ask for people's permission, then, to change it to 'other'? The function of the page may not be substantially affected by it, but I hate to be unable to correct what I understand to be an error. 'Course, if no one agrees, I'll let it drop.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 11:28, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

:::I support other! [[User:Milskidasith|Milskidasith]] 14:09, 11 November 2008 (EST)

== Pump + Stairs = Win? ==

Is there any reason why I can't use the stairs as the open space that I'm pumping water from?

Side View Top Views Key
###### ######
#v->__ #v->^# -> or <- : Direction of pump
#^<-v# ###### v : down stairs
#v->^# #^<-v# ^ : up stairs
#^<-v# ###### # : Wall
____^# _ : space

I came up with this right after exiting the game. I'll try it out soon. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 10:02, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

:No reason you couldn't, but it'd be rather silly as your dwarves can't walk through the pump. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 08:58, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

== /fail at pump stacking. ==

I'm trying to construct a pump stack as shown in figure 2, which says 'notice how the front of the pump doesn't need a floor'. If I have open space there, it says it's blocked, 'needs ground or near machine'. I can't build the bottom one to go up. So I tried the top down; same problem. To (badly) diagram it vertically; (_= floor, .= space, %=front of pump over space, @=pump on solid floor) 

.@@_ <- Pumps from left to right onto solid floor
_@%. <- right to left.
.%@_ <- left to right.
wmwm <-water

I can't build any of the pumps if either of their Xs are sitting over an open space. If I build a gear, it won't let me build on top of it. The diagram doesn't seem to show a need for gears, anyway, which is what I was trying to do. Just for laughs, I closed off one of the two holes on the bottom, built the pump and had someone pump it. It quickly (Almost immediately) filled the room with 1/7 water, so I got that right... how do I build the next level up so it connects to the one below, then the one on the surface that will begin the perpetual motion through the attached waterwheel? Trying to give the ungrateful little buggers a waterfall in the statue garden...--[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 01:41, 30 November 2008 (EST)
:Ok, I now got the whole stack built...for some reason, it wouldn't let me when I tried it previously, but now I have it going... but they don't seem to all operate when one is manually pumped to prime. --[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 02:12, 30 November 2008 (EST)
:Or when temporarily powered with a windmill. As soon as the gear and axle gets wet, it stops working. With three guys pumping, the waterfall runs for a little bit, half flooding the statue garden. :-p Why are they not connecting to power each other vertically?

You need to put the power-transfer hole under the output end of the pump. The impassable part will prevent backflow. Also, from your diagram it looks like the top pump isn't getting a power hole while the bottom onw is. Thta should be reversed. --[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 08:35, 30 November 2008 (EST)

:Aargh. I tore the whole thing down, built floors over everything, then very, very carefully figured out where I needed holes. I removed the floors so that the dark green Xs were over the open spaces above the light green Xs of the pump below, and still nothing. I gave up on the water wheel idea because I didn't have enough vertical space to channel beneath it, so I set up a windmill on a roof on top of built walls above the top pump, very carefully making sure to leave space above the dark green X on the pump... and STILL nothing. -- Hm. Just went to tear down the windmill and it says 'has 20 power, need 30'. (Spends two hours fiddling around adding walls in the wrong place, tearing them down, rebuilding them, convincing a bunch of doofuses to move the mechanism that is there to make a gear out of the way of the axle) Success! Finally got it... was a lack of power. One dwarf is capable of running one pump (until he nearly drowns himself. :p) but apparently they don't run each other in that configuration. That's what was foozling me. And yes, I screwed up on what I diagrammed above...which was part of the problem. The diagram was accurate to what I'd built...(Edited to add what I forgot: Thanks for the help, Bilkinson. :D) --[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 05:51, 1 December 2008 (EST)

I also /fail at pump stacking. I keep getting "no access". Could someone please explain the structure needed around the pump so that another pump can be built on top of it? --[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 15:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

== Pump Rate ==

Does anyone have a good estimate of the pump rate? It doesn't have to be accurate 7ths of a tile per step, but maybe enough to say "if you're building a waterfall that is x tiles across, and the fall is fed from a reservoir of y tiles, you need z pumps operating to maintain constant water flow, and z pumps operating to keep the upper reservoir full" or something...
--[[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 00:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

== Water Purifying / Desalting ==
Can someone better explain how exactly one must dig/build a water purifier to turn salt water into drinkable water? My last 3 tries have failed miserably...[[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 03:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I just built an entire zone out of wood and stone, it stands free of all walls. I dug a chasm out for the entire thing, I even built the floor of the screw pump out of wood floor just to be safe. The moment I turned that pump on it was salt water (double ~) so I don't know how old this information is but unless I'm missing something you cannot de-salt water with a screw pump [[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 09:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I figured it out. I added a video to make sure there is no confusion on how to do this for newbies. [[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 00:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

== "Natural" walls and floors ==

''Salt water pumped through a pump will become drinkable if then kept separate from natural walls, natural floors, other salt water or an aquifer.''

I dug out a reservoir, pumped some water into it, and put a well on top of it. The dwarves drank from the well. I didn't build the reservoir's walls or floor. I just dug them out. I didn't even smooth them down. They are natural.

What is meant by "natural" walls and floors?[[User:LogicalDash|LogicalDash]] 02:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

:Afaik, exactly what you have described. Did you have any "salt" water anywhere? (You didn't mention it, so I have to ask.) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

== Water Containment ==

The uses of pumps to contain water pressure have been discussed extensively, but what about using pumps to transmit mechanical power into an area without allowing water to flow out at all?

Axles run into both sides of the pump. The impassible square of the pump prevents water flowing from the right (submerged) to the left (unsubmerged), while the pump transmits power from one axle to the other. I know this is a simple concept, but it took me a while to think of it - and when most of this system has to be submerged in pressurized water, it's rather nice to be able to block water entirely, and I think the concept merits a section on the page (whether it works or not, actually).

('#'=stone wall, '='=dry axle, '-'=submerged axle, '%%'=pump, pumping from the left to the right (so active, but accomplishing nothing because the left is entirely dry))

########
===%%---
########

I'm setting up for a test run; I'll report results shortly, I hope.
--[[User:Cowmage|Cowmage]] 17:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:This does work, even under significant pressure. I'll add it to the 'alternate uses' section. --[[User:Cowmage|Cowmage]] 22:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

==No Flow to Diagonals==

Due to space constrains, I tried pulling off this scenario:

.#### #%%=# #####

('#'=stone, '.'=level land, '='=floor bars over channel, '%'=pump from right to left)

The the pump would not output to the diagonal level land, so I had to modify my plans somewhat. Should this be noted somewhere? [[User:Jaaz|Jaaz]] 17:30, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
:Your diagram is unclear, but if that's a side view then it's known (and noted) that water does not flow diagonally up or down. If that's a top view, it's ''clearly'' stated that a pump requires 4 tiles in a row - not in a diagonal.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

40d Talk:Thirst

2009-08-26T05:37:14Z

Keesto:

Wrote up as much information as I could think of on thirst. I'll try to see if wildlife drinks, if visiting creatures drink, and how long it takes a dwarf to die without water - maybe waiting until someone takes a drink, noting the date, then locking them in a room with food until they die. If someone beats me to it, please update the page accordingly - I'm not sure when I'll get around to running the experiments. --[[User:CrazyEyes|CrazyEyes]] 20:05, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Ran a test with the elven merchants, they lasted about a month before going berserk, then another five months without an apparent water source, so I think it's safe to say they don't drink.--[[User:CrazyEyes|CrazyEyes]] 23:18, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

To Editor:
:It is affected by the tileset.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 01:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I think only dwarves with yellow/red injuries drink nothing but water, minor wounds don't seem to be a problem. Not about to get a dwarf wounded to find out, though [[User:Greep|Greep]] 08:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I have set up several wells and have several stockpiles of drinks scattered around the fortress, yet all of my dwarfs still complain of thirst. Is there something more I can do? --[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 05:37, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-20T10:43:36Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

My last few goblin seiges, have been actual seiges, instead of running around into my traps. The first of 3 squads ran in, about half fell victim to my traps, then ran, then the other 2 squads have been just waiting outside my fort, for 3 months and counting. [[User:OmegaX]] 15-September-2008
:Just to check, you didn't do anything that would break their pathfinding like triggering cave-ins, locking doors, or raising bridges? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 14:41, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
They left after a season, but there were no pathfinding issues, the fort was open, just waiting for them. --[[User:OmegaX|OmegaX]] 21:10, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

: I agree. Traps are a great thing. I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game. Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.--[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 23:46, 5 September 2008 (EDT) Later...I have found that traps are the best/only defense. I have set up about 200 cage traps around the map, and also 20 stone fall traps around the entrances. Soldiers are only useful to me now when I release the goblins from their cages- in confined spaces -for a mass slaughter. Very satisfying.

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)
::My roommate had one in a group of ambushers. He was wearing a human leather earring, so that's lovely ;) --[[User:FloodSpectre|FloodSpectre]] 20:04, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-20T10:42:46Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

My last few goblin seiges, have been actual seiges, instead of running around into my traps. The first of 3 squads ran in, about half fell victim to my traps, then ran, then the other 2 squads have been just waiting outside my fort, for 3 months and counting. [[User:OmegaX]] 15-September-2008
:Just to check, you didn't do anything that would break their pathfinding like triggering cave-ins, locking doors, or raising bridges? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 14:41, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
They left after a season, but there were no pathfinding issues, the fort was open, just waiting for them. --[[User:OmegaX|OmegaX]] 21:10, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

: I agree. Traps are a great thing. I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game. Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.--[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 23:46, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
Later...I have found that traps are the best/only defense. I have set up about 200 cage traps around the map, and also 20 stone fall traps around the entrances. Soldiers are only useful to me now when I release the goblins from their cages- in confined spaces -for a mass slaughter. Very satisfying.

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)
::My roommate had one in a group of ambushers. He was wearing a human leather earring, so that's lovely ;) --[[User:FloodSpectre|FloodSpectre]] 20:04, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Dragon

2008-09-20T10:27:50Z

Keesto: /* Trapped! */

== Tameable? ==

Are Dragons tameable in this version? Supposedly they were in the previous version, but I am not sure. [[User:KiTA|KiTA]] 18:59, 24 November 2007 (EST)

If you see a Hyrda in a fortress, will a Dragon ever appear, or will you forever see Hyrdas going forward? [[User:KiTA|KiTA]] 18:59, 24 November 2007 (EST)

: Yes, they can be tamed once you get the [[dungeon master]], just like before. --[[User:JT|JT]] 18:43, 24 November 2007 (EST)
:: What about multiple types of megabeasts showing up? Or is it "once a hyrda, always a hydra?"
::: I had both a hydra and bronze colossus show up in the same fort [[User:Coelocanth|Coelocanth]]
::: I had a Dragon, and then 3 months later a hydra show up as well. PS: I edited your comment. --[[User:Gotthard|Gotthard]] 11:08, 10 December 2007 (EST)
::::So far I'm 15 years into my fortress and I've had 3 Bronze Collusi, 2 Hydras, 1 Titan and 1 Dragon. I've tossed them all into a pit which I drop sieging armies into for my amusment... [[User:XRsyst|XRsyst]] 22:55, May 15 2008 (PDT)

== Disappointment ==

I was pretty disappointed with my first Dragon. It came during a goblin siege, and proceeded to make a bee line for them. The first goblin bolt grounded it as unconscious, and the second killed it. Highly anticlimactic, it didn't even singe anything. Would be nice if they were somewhat threatening. --Gotthard 13:50, 3 December 2007 (EST)
:This is not a problem with dragons, it's a recuring problem from ranged weapons. Did you ever try to send champions against a horde of bowmen? They'd die just as easily as recruits... --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:30, 3 December 2007 (EST)
::I would say it is somewhat a problem with megabeasts in general, though. Someone actually mentioned this to me in another context the other day, but megabeasts really need to have some special mechanics for them if they're going to be very mega.--[[User:Qalnor|Qalnor]] 15:01, 3 December 2007 (EST)
::If I read the raws correctly, it just looks like his only attack is a bite (with a good damage of 1-6). Shouldn't he have a tail swipe, or a wing buffet to complement his fire breathing ability? Perhaps an increased resistance to ranged attacks, although armor doesn't seem to do much to piercing damage. Very irritating. --Gotthard 17:21, 3 December 2007 (EST)
:I just saw something similar -- my hunter was out hunting, and came upon a dragon that had just invaded. He seems to have dodged the fire the dragon breathed at him, then knocked it unconscious with a bolt to the heart. The hunter must have agreed that this was anticlimactic, as he then shrugged and went to kill a mountain goat. [[User:Dolohov|Dolohov]] 14:35, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
A dragon raided my village, burning everything above ground. The flames consumed everything. Including the dragon itself. --[[User:Sebbekai|Sebbekai]] 16:31, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
:err... it burned itself to death? Are you sure? Because if you look at the object data for dragons in this article, it has the [FIREIMMUNE_SUPER] tag... --[[User:BahamutZERO|BahamutZERO]] 22:17, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
::[FIREIMMUNE_SUPER] grants immunity to dragonbreath and the belief that the creature is immune to fire. It does not actually grant an immunity to fire. [FIREIMMUNE] does that. The dragon breathed, ignited grass, and burned upon the fire it started. Sometimes they purposefully hop into lava and become dragon fritters. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 23:43, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

== Tiny? ==

Dragons can enter dwarf homes? That's a bit odd. A five story tall dragon probably should be a bit taller then the four-or-so foot dwarves. I'd imagine elves have a hard enough time as is. [[User:Minalkra|Minalkra]] 01:20, 2 May 2008 (EDT)
:Uhh.. This is Dwarf Fortress not the North American Scale and Size Convention (NASSC) ...Duh [[User:Hoborobo|Hoborobo]] 14:03, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

== Burning items ... ==

IMO the easiest way of dealing with fire breath is: Options -> Only military allowed outside.

Setting this ON as soon as the dragon arrives will result in dwarves not doing much (or more precisely cancelling any task that paths them outside), but should also prevent dwarves from picking up burning items (providing you kill the dragon while it's still outside the fortress.)

== They're [FANCIFUL]...? ==

I just noticed the object data for dragons has the [FANCIFUL] tag. I had been led to believe by [[Fanciful|this article]] that this tag was for creatures that were just mythical and didn't actually spawn in the game. But dragons certainly do spawn in the game. Is that article wrong or what? --[[User:BahamutZERO|BahamutZERO]] 22:26, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

:I think this makes dragons not spawn normally. Instead, they spawn when it's time for a dragon attack. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 22:32, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

::Ah, I just looked at the other megabeasts, and they have the tag too, along with the demons. So that's probably why. The [FANCIFUL] article is still somewhat wrong or misleading though. --[[User:BahamutZERO|BahamutZERO]] 22:36, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

== After being tamed ==

Will the defend themselves if they get attacked? I would love burning the bloody goblins who go after my dwarf families. It seems they won't move much if you let them out of their cages. It would also be fun to have a match with 2 mega beasts against each other.--[[User:Seaneat|Seaneat]] 13:37, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

== Spawning Injured? ==

I was just assaulted by a Dragon. With no legs. (Well... it was missing 2 legs... completely cut off)

It constantly was unconscious (although it did wake up every 5 minutes or so and take a couple steps forward)
I haven't checked up on the legends for that dragon yet, but I can assume it lost those body parts in a battle sometime back. Very... intriguing. Should a note be made about mega-beasts spawning as such?

:This does sound rather interesting. When did Toady Introduce the fact that Megabeasts exist in the world and can be encountered on numerous occasions, given that you haven't killed them yet? And, Can you find mega-beasts in Adventure mode? [[User:Hoborobo|Hoborobo]] 08:17, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

:As I recall, Megabeasts have their own lives and histories, generated when the map is generated. There is a rotating quote on the front page from Toady about a Titan that had its leg gnawed off by a dwarf and then laid waste to the land for 1000 years or so. So, no, your Dragon didn't start injured. Someone else injured it for you. --[[User:Mirthmanor|Mirthmanor]] 17:09, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

== Dragon Footprints ==

From SomethingAwful forums thread #2917631<blockquote>

'''Krinkle posted:'''

holy poo poo! Just as I was getting ready to go home I get a message.

''Berayi Nelarthesa, Dragon, has arrived.''

I saved and took the save with me. Holy crap. I sounded the alarm that nobody but nobody was allowed outside and let loose and he leaves sand where he walks HE LEAVES SAND WHERE HE WALKS.
</blockquote>
Reposted for flavour by --[[User:Jellyfishgreen|Jellyfishgreen]] 07:02, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

:It seems to me that dwarves walking on a layer of sand covered by grass leave sand where they walk, too. This way the stange phenomenon posted above might be explained. --[[User:Doub|Doub]]
::Elves have grasstrample 0. Dwarves have default grasstrample. Giant desert scorpions have grasstrample 10. Alligators have grasstrample 20. Dragons have grasstrample 50. A mess of dwarves milling about your entrance will wear away all the grass eventually. A dragon does it with every step. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 23:43, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

== Trapped! ==

I have built a few hundred cage traps around my fortress. The second a Dragon appeared, I ordered (o) my dwarves to stay indoors and just waited. AWESOME! Caught him in a dumb cage trap. Shucks the kobalts don't get caught in them... (so I put a few stone traps around the exits/entrances).

40d Talk:Dragon

2008-09-20T10:27:22Z

Keesto: Trapped!

== Tameable? ==

Are Dragons tameable in this version? Supposedly they were in the previous version, but I am not sure. [[User:KiTA|KiTA]] 18:59, 24 November 2007 (EST)

If you see a Hyrda in a fortress, will a Dragon ever appear, or will you forever see Hyrdas going forward? [[User:KiTA|KiTA]] 18:59, 24 November 2007 (EST)

: Yes, they can be tamed once you get the [[dungeon master]], just like before. --[[User:JT|JT]] 18:43, 24 November 2007 (EST)
:: What about multiple types of megabeasts showing up? Or is it "once a hyrda, always a hydra?"
::: I had both a hydra and bronze colossus show up in the same fort [[User:Coelocanth|Coelocanth]]
::: I had a Dragon, and then 3 months later a hydra show up as well. PS: I edited your comment. --[[User:Gotthard|Gotthard]] 11:08, 10 December 2007 (EST)
::::So far I'm 15 years into my fortress and I've had 3 Bronze Collusi, 2 Hydras, 1 Titan and 1 Dragon. I've tossed them all into a pit which I drop sieging armies into for my amusment... [[User:XRsyst|XRsyst]] 22:55, May 15 2008 (PDT)

== Disappointment ==

I was pretty disappointed with my first Dragon. It came during a goblin siege, and proceeded to make a bee line for them. The first goblin bolt grounded it as unconscious, and the second killed it. Highly anticlimactic, it didn't even singe anything. Would be nice if they were somewhat threatening. --Gotthard 13:50, 3 December 2007 (EST)
:This is not a problem with dragons, it's a recuring problem from ranged weapons. Did you ever try to send champions against a horde of bowmen? They'd die just as easily as recruits... --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:30, 3 December 2007 (EST)
::I would say it is somewhat a problem with megabeasts in general, though. Someone actually mentioned this to me in another context the other day, but megabeasts really need to have some special mechanics for them if they're going to be very mega.--[[User:Qalnor|Qalnor]] 15:01, 3 December 2007 (EST)
::If I read the raws correctly, it just looks like his only attack is a bite (with a good damage of 1-6). Shouldn't he have a tail swipe, or a wing buffet to complement his fire breathing ability? Perhaps an increased resistance to ranged attacks, although armor doesn't seem to do much to piercing damage. Very irritating. --Gotthard 17:21, 3 December 2007 (EST)
:I just saw something similar -- my hunter was out hunting, and came upon a dragon that had just invaded. He seems to have dodged the fire the dragon breathed at him, then knocked it unconscious with a bolt to the heart. The hunter must have agreed that this was anticlimactic, as he then shrugged and went to kill a mountain goat. [[User:Dolohov|Dolohov]] 14:35, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
A dragon raided my village, burning everything above ground. The flames consumed everything. Including the dragon itself. --[[User:Sebbekai|Sebbekai]] 16:31, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
:err... it burned itself to death? Are you sure? Because if you look at the object data for dragons in this article, it has the [FIREIMMUNE_SUPER] tag... --[[User:BahamutZERO|BahamutZERO]] 22:17, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
::[FIREIMMUNE_SUPER] grants immunity to dragonbreath and the belief that the creature is immune to fire. It does not actually grant an immunity to fire. [FIREIMMUNE] does that. The dragon breathed, ignited grass, and burned upon the fire it started. Sometimes they purposefully hop into lava and become dragon fritters. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 23:43, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

== Tiny? ==

Dragons can enter dwarf homes? That's a bit odd. A five story tall dragon probably should be a bit taller then the four-or-so foot dwarves. I'd imagine elves have a hard enough time as is. [[User:Minalkra|Minalkra]] 01:20, 2 May 2008 (EDT)
:Uhh.. This is Dwarf Fortress not the North American Scale and Size Convention (NASSC) ...Duh [[User:Hoborobo|Hoborobo]] 14:03, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

== Burning items ... ==

IMO the easiest way of dealing with fire breath is: Options -> Only military allowed outside.

Setting this ON as soon as the dragon arrives will result in dwarves not doing much (or more precisely cancelling any task that paths them outside), but should also prevent dwarves from picking up burning items (providing you kill the dragon while it's still outside the fortress.)

== They're [FANCIFUL]...? ==

I just noticed the object data for dragons has the [FANCIFUL] tag. I had been led to believe by [[Fanciful|this article]] that this tag was for creatures that were just mythical and didn't actually spawn in the game. But dragons certainly do spawn in the game. Is that article wrong or what? --[[User:BahamutZERO|BahamutZERO]] 22:26, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

:I think this makes dragons not spawn normally. Instead, they spawn when it's time for a dragon attack. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 22:32, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

::Ah, I just looked at the other megabeasts, and they have the tag too, along with the demons. So that's probably why. The [FANCIFUL] article is still somewhat wrong or misleading though. --[[User:BahamutZERO|BahamutZERO]] 22:36, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

== After being tamed ==

Will the defend themselves if they get attacked? I would love burning the bloody goblins who go after my dwarf families. It seems they won't move much if you let them out of their cages. It would also be fun to have a match with 2 mega beasts against each other.--[[User:Seaneat|Seaneat]] 13:37, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

== Spawning Injured? ==

I was just assaulted by a Dragon. With no legs. (Well... it was missing 2 legs... completely cut off)

It constantly was unconscious (although it did wake up every 5 minutes or so and take a couple steps forward)
I haven't checked up on the legends for that dragon yet, but I can assume it lost those body parts in a battle sometime back. Very... intriguing. Should a note be made about mega-beasts spawning as such?

:This does sound rather interesting. When did Toady Introduce the fact that Megabeasts exist in the world and can be encountered on numerous occasions, given that you haven't killed them yet? And, Can you find mega-beasts in Adventure mode? [[User:Hoborobo|Hoborobo]] 08:17, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

:As I recall, Megabeasts have their own lives and histories, generated when the map is generated. There is a rotating quote on the front page from Toady about a Titan that had its leg gnawed off by a dwarf and then laid waste to the land for 1000 years or so. So, no, your Dragon didn't start injured. Someone else injured it for you. --[[User:Mirthmanor|Mirthmanor]] 17:09, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

== Dragon Footprints ==

From SomethingAwful forums thread #2917631<blockquote>

'''Krinkle posted:'''

holy poo poo! Just as I was getting ready to go home I get a message.

''Berayi Nelarthesa, Dragon, has arrived.''

I saved and took the save with me. Holy crap. I sounded the alarm that nobody but nobody was allowed outside and let loose and he leaves sand where he walks HE LEAVES SAND WHERE HE WALKS.
</blockquote>
Reposted for flavour by --[[User:Jellyfishgreen|Jellyfishgreen]] 07:02, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

:It seems to me that dwarves walking on a layer of sand covered by grass leave sand where they walk, too. This way the stange phenomenon posted above might be explained. --[[User:Doub|Doub]]
::Elves have grasstrample 0. Dwarves have default grasstrample. Giant desert scorpions have grasstrample 10. Alligators have grasstrample 20. Dragons have grasstrample 50. A mess of dwarves milling about your entrance will wear away all the grass eventually. A dragon does it with every step. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 23:43, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

== Trapped! ==

I have built a few hundred cage traps around my fortress. The second a Dragon appeared, I ordered (O) my dwarves to stay indoors and just waited. AWESOME! Caught him in a dumb cage trap. Shucks the kobalts don't get caught in them... (so I put a few stone traps around the exits/entrances).

40d Talk:Losing

2008-09-06T19:17:42Z

Keesto:

" if you dig a hole in a wall diagonally to a water source, water can come spurting out even without you receiving a warning about damp stone." Is this true anymore? The dev notes for today's version (November 1st) mentioned making squares touching water diagonally get the damp marker as well. --[[User:BahamutZERO|BahamutZERO]] 15:51, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

== 26 directions ==

26 directions? Really? I've been digging out tiles UNDER bodies of water trapped in rock, much less diagonal to them along the z-axis, and I haven't run into any flooding problems yet.--[[User:Xazak|Xazak]] 18:44, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

:If you dig a tunnel underneath a body of water, you retain the ceiling overhead. If you were to remove this ceiling (e.g. by digging a ramp or stairway upwards) then the water would certainly flow.

::It would, except digging a ramp doesn't remove the ceiling...in fact it's impossible to dig upwards into water. You can't designate anything on the water tile above, and nothing you do below removes the ceiling...I tried in vain, and was sorely dissapointed. 'Specially since Toady did it one of his movies. Let me know if you get it to work, though. --[[User:Turgid Bolk|Turgid Bolk]] 14:10, 6 November 2007 (EST)

:::You can currently ramp up into a water source and have it release the water down in version v0.27.169.33g. --[[User:Stravitch|Stravitch]] 16:39, 23 January 2008 (EST)

:::Build an upward (or an up/down) staircase on a level below and designate a downward staircase on the level above. Downward staircase is essentially a modification of the floor (ceiling) into a hole with stairs. Water doesn't flow in 16 up/down+horizontal directions (doesn't flow up+horizontal under pressure). Be warned that digging directly below a lake or a river is safe despite "dump stone" warning but digging into stone directly below an aquafier is NOT safe.--[[User:Another|Another]] 02:35, 4 December 2007 (EST)

:::Water flows in only 10 directions: the eight horizontal directions, straight up, and straight down. Someone should edit the article page.[[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 12:08, 23 January 2008 (EST)
::::Done, but don't hesitate to edit pages if you see something wrong :) people can always reedit them if they disagree ;) --[[User:Shades|Shades]] 16:13, 23 January 2008 (EST)

== Losing is fun ==
What would you say to moving the article to [[fun]] and making this one a redirect? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 18:29, 5 November 2007 (EST)

:That would be so funny! Don't know if it would gel with the rules, though. --[[User:Tarsier|Tarsier]] 19:53, 5 November 2007 (EST)

::Redirected fun to here. ;) --[[User:Turgid Bolk|Turgid Bolk]] 14:12, 6 November 2007 (EST)

== Starvation ==
According to the starvation section you can gather plants if you dont have soil to farm on, but as far as i know plants only grow above soil layers [[User:Thatguyyaknow|Thatguyyaknow]] 08:57, 19 January 2008 (EST)

:If you make rock muddy, you can grow on top of it. [[User:Calculus|Calculus]] 15:16, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

== Dehydration ==
What's that about "an indoor basin or water tower" ? How do you do that? --[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 15:17, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-06T03:46:22Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

: I agree. Traps are a great thing. I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game. Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.--[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 23:46, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-06T03:43:45Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-06T03:43:23Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

I agree. Traps are a great thing. I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game. Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-06T03:43:14Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-06T03:42:45Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

I agree. Traps are a great thing. I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game. Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-06T03:42:08Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

I agree. Traps are a great thing. I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game. Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.--[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 23:42, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-06T03:41:39Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

I agree. Traps are a great thing. I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game. Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.
--[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 23:41, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Siege

2008-09-06T03:40:32Z

Keesto: /* Best way to counter sieges? */

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I'd captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozain time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialised in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans. I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER] for barbarian raiding action. When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse. When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too. It was pretty bad ass. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

i just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
im wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the golin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works. Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade ==

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :)
Alternatively, setting up balistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

I agree. Traps are a great thing. I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game. Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
+@# g
+@# g
g +@# <- goblins on ground floor come this way
+@# g
+@# g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stonefall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly seperate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four seperate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush.
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article.
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Dungeon master

2008-08-28T18:13:33Z

Keesto: Dead Dungeon master

Anyone know what triggers the dungeon master now? I have absolutely NO coins whatsoever and he just showed up at the start of my 4th spring. [[User:Rpb|Rpb]] 11:54, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Is there a point to the image? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 01:38, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I think it's there to show what skills the Dungeon Master starts with. Putting the same in plain text would work better, methinks. --[[User:Zirik|Zirik]] 03:08, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::My oppinion also. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 00:45, 10 November 2007 (EST)

He showed up here in summer 1055 with the 'normal'/standard skill level in those four skills mentioned in the article (Animal Trainer, Animal Caretaker, Furnace Operator, Metal Crafter). I've got no coins either. Created wealth was around 70k, around 60-70 dwarves. Maybe it's the number of pets? I have 123.--[[User:SL|SL]] 00:43, 11 November 2007 (EST)

:Probably not. I got him in 1054 with no more than 25 animals, and had passed 70k wealth long ago so that wasn't it either. Number of dwarves? 1054 would have been the first year after I hit 50 dwarves, which might be the case with yours as well. [[User:Rpb|Rpb]] 01:36, 11 November 2007 (EST)

:When I got him, I had 57 dwarves. The requirement is probably 50 dwarves, we all have that number in common. --[[User:Valdemar|Valdemar]] 10:19, 11 November 2007 (EST)

:I dont think the requirement is 50 dwarves, i have the dungeon master arrive when i was nearing the 80 Mark, and had a wealth of around 200k. --[[User:Fedaykin|Fedaykin]] 20:48, 15 November 2007 (EST)
::Were you nearing the 80 mark BEFORE or AFTER the migration when he showed up? A requirement of 50 dwarves to trigger him would mean you would probably have 70+ dwarves by the time he actually arrives, since he generally shows up at the same time as 20 other immigrants.
:::It was before the migration ofcourse, ill try it again when i have time [[User:Fedaykin|Fedaykin]] 14:44, 17 November 2007 (EST)
:My numbers were 68 dwarves (I went from 36 to 60+ in the last wave), roughly 2.7M in wealth (and I'd been over 1M for years) in year 1056 with a moderate number of pets and no coins. I'd also dug to the deepest level the first year, in case folks were considering that as a criterion. I have fought numerous slugmen, goblins and kobolds, but nothing exotic (I had to reload after the dragon arrived and burned everything down). Bear in mind that if there's a pop requirement, then it's important how many you have before the DM arrives, but it's equally important how many you had before the ''previous'' wave. Those numbers form the bounds. So if you had 80 before the DM arrived, but 31 of them arrived or were born in that last wave, then this will have been the first time the caravan saw you with 50+ pop. [[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 01:56, 20 November 2007 (EST)

I think his arrival might be related to your stored animals. He seems to arrive for me whenever I get my first goblin in a cage trap. [[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 09:04, 21 December 2007 (EST)
:I just had this happen again. My pop. went from 57 to 80 or so and it was the first wave after I had captured a dragon and some goblins. [[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 09:22, 24 December 2007 (EST)

I can confirm that he does NOT arrive simply at 50 dwarves. Just got an immigration wave that raised my pop from 52 to 60, and no DM.
--[[User:Tyrving|Tyrving]] 02:56, 22 December 2007 (EST)

How about using skill names that are shown in the game? For example armor crafting -> Armorsmith , weapon smithing -> Weaponsmith and so on. Its a bit confusing now with blacksmithing and all.

Have you considered that the DM has /a percentage based chance of arriving once you fortress reaches the population of 50?/ --[[User:Hamenopi|Hamenopi]] 07:13, 17 January 2008 (EST)

I had about 53 dwarves then an immigration wave took me up to 62 but it wasnt until the next wave which gave me 81 that I got him also in requirements says you need to discover hidden site feature, but i havent discovered anything yet. Imported wealth is 128245 Exported is 682 Created wealth is 429483 and on the off chance his arrival is related to animal numbers i have 5 trained and 21 others [[User:Thatguyyaknow|Thatguyyaknow]] 07:26, 19 January 2008 (EST) - I hadnt caught anything in a trap but i had nicked a cougar from the elves. Also I'd smithed a massive amount of gold and copper as well as some silver reckon it might be related to that? [[User:Thatguyyaknow|Thatguyyaknow]] 07:49, 19 January 2008 (EST)

I snagged the DM right as my population hit 80. I have >700K wealth (got lucky with artifacts), and hardly any jobs (as Economy requires), so I would imagine it's either a population thing, or a mix of things including population.

Here's a bit of fun to smash pretty much all the speculation so far... I've had over or around 100 dwarves for the past year or two (at 142, now), I've captured goblins, I've captured and trained vermin, I've trained war dogs, I have no coins (though we seem to know that isn't a requirement), and I have
over a million in fortress wealth. Also, nearly half a million in imported wealth. I'm fairly certain none of the previously discussed conditions are the requirement. I'm wondering if it really is 'dungeon feature' related. The only thing I haven't had is greater beasts (unless a single Titan counts).—Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Rabek|Rabek]] ([[User talk:Rabek|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rabek|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}

:A titan certainly would count, but that's not the 'map feature' that's required. Do you have magma, chasm, cave water, pits and/or a cave? Those might be what's the trigger, if you don't have any of those, then perhaps one (or more than one) is the trigger? I've gotten a DM without any invasions or sieges and an equally impressive amount of wealth in and out (turned off invasions cause I was tired of getting attacked while I was moving from my initial dig-in to an ideal spot). Mine came before 50 (a kid being born took me to 51,) and he came with the last migration before the birth. My site has magma, a brook, and pits. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 23:42, 27 January 2008 (EST)

::I have none of those, that I've found, so it might be one of those. I'm wishing I'd known about how to identify magma on the embark screen prior to doing this, but that's neither here nor there. I wouldn't be surprised if it's pits or magma, or maybe just any feature that has monsters. [[User:Rabek|Rabek]] 05:43, 28 January 2008 (EST)

:::Don't feel too bad, as you could consider it cheating to know what you're going to get... Us 'cheaters' will quickly call it time-saving or whatnot instead ;) Check out Regional Prospector if you haven't, and don't mind crossing that grey line. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 12:43, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Hm, the DM just arrived after 68 Dwarves, 380k Wealth and no map feature whatsoever. [[User:Drahflow|Drahflow]] 17:40, 28 January 2008 (EST)
:So you're in an area that you've revealed, and has nothing previously mentioned? --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 07:19, 29 January 2008 (EST)

DM just arrived at 66 dwarfs, can't think of any map feature i have/discovered (no magma, chasm, cave, cave water, pit - however, i do have an ordinary river). I traded with the elves for a tiger, elk, camel and crocodile just before, but i already had other animals like leopard and saltwater crocodile. I have lots of animals (79), lots of war dogs (65). wealth 1818000. export 40700. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 15:20, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

hmm... my dungeon master is wearing a hood, cloak, mittens and nothing else xD [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 16:49, 18 May 2008 (EDT)

In my experience, DM arrives around the fifty to sixty dwarf mark, usually in the second year. I rarely have wealth over about 100k by this time. However, I generally have a lot of cages and traps about. Maybe that's what it is?--[[User:Dadamh|Dadamh]] 14:11, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

Mine arrived in mid spring of my third year when I had about 78 dwarves (that wave of immigration bumped it up to 95), I had a wealth over 920k, and I had a visible magma vent since I arrived. --[[User:Toloran|Toloran]] 19:12, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

== Cloak obsession ==

Should there be something about the DM's taste in clothes? --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 18:07, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

:My current DM is sporting no less then 8 cloaks in various states of disrepair. There might be something to this. Anyone else confirm? --[[User:Mikaka|Mikaka]] 04:12, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

:Correction: 10 cloaks, and on his way to get another. Also, disturbingly the only other clothes he has are mittens, shoes, and a hood. What the hell. --[[User:Mikaka|Mikaka]] 04:14, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

:My DM arrived with a cloak, a hood, and two mittens. He immediately stole a used sock from someone's cabinet. Pretty bold for someone that spends all their time smelting steel. Nope, check that, he has two cloaks, and still no real clothes. Are all DM's male? I can't think of a single DM in all my forts that was female. [[User:Mirthmanor|Mirthmanor]] 09:53, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
::My DM is female, has 2 cloaks, a hood, a pair of mittens, 3 socks, and one shoe. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 13:27, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
:::try making some underwear? perhaps he's trying to stay warm... in fashion.

== Dead Dungeon master ==

My Dungeon master showed up, wandered into a river, and drowned. Is there a chance another is coming?