Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

40d:Challenges

2008-12-17T19:56:06Z

Macdjord: Category goes at the end.

''Part of this article was originally taken from the DF forums thread [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=466.0 "Goal-Based Dwarf Fortress"].''

The general goal of [[Fortress Mode]] is to survive, acquire wealth, defend your wealth, and become the capital of your civilization. However, many players find that fighting off repeated [[siege|sieges]] and keeping their people alive just isn't enough anymore. They begin to experiment with different sets of objectives, themes, and restrictions in search of more [[fun]]. These are some goals to attempt or use as inspiration.

== ASPCA ==
* No [[animals]]

Don't bring any [[animals|pets]]. Furthermore, due to the possibility of animals being caught in them, don't build any [[traps]], either. If [[immigrants]] bring pets, get rid of the pets somehow. (If you're a particularly rabid ASPCA member, you could get rid of the pet-bearing immigrants, too, but that's probably excessive.)

== City-States ==
* No [[skill]]s
* 7 or multiple of 7 of everything you bring

At the start your dwarves split everything equally and move to 7 different locales that are not interconnected. They have to mine their own rooms, plant their own crops, use their own craft piles. This will probably require a bit of cross-fertilization until you get [[door]]s and can lock everyone in, but after that it is every dwarf for him/herself!

== Dieting Dwarves ==
'''Fishing village'''

Give your dwarves only the fishing skill and other fishing related skills (like bonecrafting.) Try to survive off a [[fish]] only diet. Flood the river and build houses above it so the dwarves can fish through their floors. There will be an extra challenge if the river freezes in the winter.

'''Carnivore'''

* No plants or seeds

Only eat strays, pets, and animals you trap and hunt. No farming or plant gathering. Keep all your pets in cages and care for them as little as possible. Eat your dwarves' pets first for an extra challenge. If this upsets your dwarves, ridicule or ignore them. (If you are particularly heartless, you could cage those dwarves as well because anyone that empathizes with animals doesn't deserve any rights either.)

'''Vegan'''

In essence, construct an [http://archive.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Main_Glade Elven Forest]: The [[Challenges#Hippy challenge|Hippy Challenge]].

'''IOGT/AA'''

* No alcohol

Quite possibly, this is the cruelest challenge that your dwarves can be given. Don't ever brew any alcohol. Build [[well]]s instead and watch your now teetotaller dwarves work slower and slower by the season.

== Hippy challenge ==

Peace, man. Don't harm any plants except those you plant yourself. Don't cut down any trees, and don't trade for logs with the filthy humans or dwarves who do. You can trade for plants with the elves, they understand your environmental code. Don't burn any coal, do you know what that does to the environment, man? Never cause any creature's death, so no military, and no lethal traps. You can use cage traps, and either tame the creatures you catch, or release them back into the wild, far from your fort.

For an extra challenge try this in an area with a goblin fort or cave.

== Diplomacy ==
* Six dwarves with only social [[skill]]s
* One skilled dwarf

Six courtiers of the king's court made some ill-advised remarks within earshot of the king, and as a result have been ordered to go found an outpost. They've hired you to make sure they survive. The six nobles only have social skills and refuse to do any work that is beneath them.

== Fort Geneva ==
* Build only nonlethal (cage) traps
* Sentient creatures ([[Goblins]], etc.) are to be considered prisoners of war and treated humanely
* Suggested provisions for prisoners: a bed, a personal cell, a commons area, aboveground exercise yard, and the clothes the creature was wearing when captured
* Inspiration: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions Geneva Conventions]

== Hermit ==
* No [[skill]]s
* One [[pick]] and no other supplies

A well known and popular challenge. Kill off the 6 starting dwarves and any [[immigrants]] as they arrive, and try to make a living for the last dwarf.

== Humanlike Fortress ==
Pretend you're a filthy above-ground dwelling humie.
* Build a town wall.
**Only hovels and farms outside the town walls.
*House your dwarves in small town homes
**5-10 dwarves per house (they had pretty big families back in the day)
**upstairs bedrooms, small dining room, maybe a single level basement.
*House your workshops according to profession, not conveinance.
*Build warehouses for stockpiles, and set guards outside them.
*Create a keep, with its own wall, barracks, treasury, etc.
*Create a market square.
*Create a main street from the town wall to the market square and/or keep. Well-paved blocks, statues and decorative shubbery are a must.
*No underground interconnections between different areas.
* BONUS: Make a fountain at least 3 Z squares high in the center of the keep, with a +statue+(or better) on top of it.
* BONUS: The fortress is built around a human town.
* BONUS: Town has an awesome inn operating in same building as the brewery. REGULAR parties there, or it isn't good enough!
* BONUS: All booze is kept within a town inn.
* BONUS: An above ground farm complete with crops and cows,mules,horses,etc.
* ÜBERBONUS : Make all of the fortress out of wood. And have a dragon attack it. Send us pictures!

== Hunting Party ==
* One marksman/ambusher
* Two camp servants (e.g. one cook/brewer/herbalist, one butcher/tanner/leatherworker/woodcutter)
* Four clients, all dabbling in marksman/ambusher but with primarily civilian skills.

No anvil, lots of hunting dogs ... and a haunted wood. (In a terrifying wood, you may find all the trees & plants are dead, severely reducing long-term prospects.)

== Immigration and customs enforcement ==
* One miner/mason/architect
* One woodcutter/carpenter/architect
* Five military dwarves

No anvil, lots of food, in a canyon - spend the first year building fortifications to interdict traffic. Immigrants can build a town around you, but your original dwarves remain dedicated to their mission.

== Nay, no ponderous stone doors or shining silver arcades, not while I live! ==

The new king has decided rocks and metals can no longer be used in construction. He'll be overthrown shortly, but in the meantime construct your fortress using only <material>.

Anything that can be made out of <material> will be made only from <material>. Doors, chairs, floodgates, bridges, stairs, workshops, towers, you name it.

'''Wooden'''

Make everything that you can out of wood. That means nothing underground, though you may excavate to make areas above-ground. Bonus points for bringing no wood at the start and/or going to a treeless area.

'''Glass'''

Construct an above-ground fortress made entirely out of glass. Bonus points for not using magma or using clear and crystal glass exclusively.

'''Soap'''

Cleanliness is next to godliness! Soap is in the form of bars, and so can be used as a building material just like any other type of bar. Show those elven traders just how much you despise their philosophies by building your trading outpost out of stuff derived from dead trees ''and'' dead animals. Too many cats? Build with cat tallow soap.

== Luddite ==
* No mechanics or [[mechanism]]s
* No [[machine]]s

[[Traps]] and moving [[bridge]]s are forbidden, water moved for [[farming]] must be accomplished by hand.

== Master Of One ==
* All starting dwarves can have one skill and one skill only
* No changes are allowed on any dwarf's labor screen
* All immigrants must stay with the profession(s) they arrive with
* All peasants must be activated into the military
Alternatively,
* All starting dwarves can have one skill and one skill only
* No changes are allowed on any dwarf's labor screen, except that hauling may be disabled. You may not enable hauling.
* All immigrants must stay with the profession(s) they arrive with, and only military that immigrates recruited may be military.

== Outcast ==
* No [[skill]]s
* One [[pick]] and no other supplies

Same as the hermit challenge, only with multiple hermits. Turn off immigrants or kill them. Turn away merchants. If they don't leave, kill them.

== The Mad Butcher ==
(this requires a tiny amount of editing to the raws) 
#Edit Dwarf Fortress\Raw\object\Creature_Domestic.txt. Remove the tag [BUTCHERABLE_NONSTANDARD] from cats and dogs. 
#Start with a normal build except:
#*One dwarf should be a dedicated butcher/leather worker
#*buy minimal food
#*bring as many puppies or kittens as possible
#Drop all your puppies or kittens into cages or into animal pits as soon as possible. 
#Dig a shaft 10 or more Z-levels deep, mark the top an animal pit. 
#At the bottom of the shaft set up a butcher shop, a tanner shop, a bedroom, and some food and leather stockpiles. 
#Set it all up so that the mad butcher cannot escape. 
#As you need food, begin selecting animals to be dropped into your deep pit, next to the butcher. 
#See how long a single butcher, butchering splattered kittens, can keep your fortress fed! Cooking and farming are cheating... raw meat for everyone! 

== This. Is. SPARTAAAA! ==

At least 50% of your dwarves should be military 100% of the time, and train in spears, shield use and [[wrestling]]. All other dwarves are "helots" and shouldn't be given any skills – they can be pressed into the military during times of war, but given no equipment or at most a bare minimum of inferior weapons. Do not use crossbows or traps. Kill maimed dwarves.

You should refuse trade with caravans, instead attacking them if possible. Whenever a messenger appears promptly enter aggressive negotiations and then throw them down the well screaming "THIS IS SPAARRTAAAAA..." at your monitor. You should forbid the use of gold and silver, etc., the making of crafts, and the smoothing of walls or any other task that makes your fortress "beautiful".

You shouldn't create chainmail or plate armour. You should only brew wine.

Note that the above suggestions are modelled on the popular movie [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_(film) 300], which was historically inaccurate. For a more "realistic dwarven Sparta", try reading the wiki article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#Society the real Sparta]

== Human "alliance" ==

Start a game centered on a human town. Build a wall around the town in stone, using a mine under the town. Do not take anything from the town, though the human guards will probably help with any sieges. For an extra challenge after finishing the wall, dig down to the [[aquifer]] and flood the town.

== Stealth ==

Create a hidden outpost close to a goblin lair. Impact the outside as minimally as possible - dig down right away, and deconstruct the wagon ASAP. No building outside or even going outside. Once your army is ready, launch a surprise attack.

== Temple ==

Designing a temple to Armok. Aesthetics count - the god will be very angry if there are no stained-glass windows and domed ceilings carved with frescoes. To gain more favor, make regular sacrifices and keep the fountains and rivers red with [[blood]].

== The great brewery ==

Disaster has struck the kingdom. A strangely glowing [[Fire|‼]]<nowiki></nowiki>peasant[[Fire|‼]] visited the greatest brewery of the empire, and as a result the whole thing exploded. No time for weeping — create its successor, a fort dedicated to alcohol production, and get the alcohol supplies flowing! Try to make the widest variety possible, and give or trade it to the dwarven [[caravan]] each year.

== Castle ==

Build a castle, greater than anything built by human, elf or dwarf. This is highly time
consuming if you want it to be a good castle. There must be floor indoors, and no underground
constructions except for mining operations and cellars. For an even greater challenge, build
a gigantic tower in the middle, where the nobles stay.

== Wealth ==

The kingdom's coffers need lining, so hop to! Found a fort and start accumulating wealth as fast as possible. Attain as high a fortress value as possible, and make most of your wealth into coins for the vault. Try to beat your record for one year, two years, or five years.

== Assassination ==

Your group of seven has been chosen to assault a goblin fortress – and you're not getting any backup. Turn off immigration, and try to slay the goblin leader and escape without casualties. For extra challenge, bring no picks.

== Biodome ==

All material, seeds, food, tools, and dwarves must be in the fortress within one year. Then, seal up the entrance. Any new immigrants... well, they might be in trouble. Survive for as long as possible!

No chasms/underground rivers/magma vents allowed.

== Retirement resort ==

Build a dwarven paradise, free from labor. All peasant immigrants should be removed from every job, including hauling, and given a great place to live. Make sure to include fun activities and plenty of parties.

== Commune ==

All your dwarves have all labors enabled. Dwarves sleep only in barracks, and no dwarf, including administrators, can be assigned any personal rooms. If the nobles find this upsetting, don't hesitate to make the corridors run red with the [[blood]] of the bourgeoisie. Obviously, don't mint any coins either. (Dwarves can take turns with wood cutting and mining, since they can't have both at once.)

== Underwater fortress ==

Encase your entire fortress in [[water]]! Your fortress should be watersealed: surrounded by water against all [[wall]]s and the top of the fortress.
* Bonus: Build all water-touching walls/roof in clear glass!
* Bonus: Use [[magma]] instead of water!
* Bonus: Build it in the [[ocean]] or a non-freezing lake
* Bonus: Build large glass domes that encase the fortress. A dome 20 tiles wide should be 20 z-levels tall. Which may be hard to cover in water.
* Mod: Make your dwarves amphibious and include airlocks between the wet fortress and the dry.

== Mountain audit/core sample ==

Start in a mountainous area and strip mine everything down, down, down to ground level. Stockpile everything, and calculate the mountain's composition. For kicks, try not excavating one tile on each z-level. You'll be left with one enormous core sample.

== Segregation ==

Make two separate, working, independent fortresses. All the men go in one, all the women in the other. Married dwarves are excluded from both.

== No singles ==

As soon as you get a married couple with an immigration wave, kill all single dwarves. Continue to do so with all immigration waves. Try to lose no children.

== Santa Claus ==

Get ten thousand toys built and offered to caravans yearly. Optionally, build ten thousand toys, fetch them in adventure mode and deliver them to every single city of the world.

== How high can you go? ==

Construction, construction, construction! Just how big a tower can you build? Out of glass maybe, clear glass? Steel? Pump water to the top? Make your tower a ''pinnacle'' of achievement and stun humans, elves and goblins alike - for they know nothing of construction and engineering like dwarves do!

== Computing ==

Can your dwarves build the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism Antikythera mechanism]? Can you program the fortress to play tic-tac-toe? More details at [[computing]].

== Doomsday Clock ==

Build a water or mechanical clock whose final state triggers the support which holds your fortress up or a megabeast out.
See how much wealth you can achieve before the clock runs out.

== Live up to your name ==

Go with the random name chosen by the game for your fortress and group. Make a handicap/play style based on your group's name, and a personal goal based on your fortress name. For example, if your group is The Iron Fist, your military must consist only of wrestlers in iron armor. If your fortress is Prisonportals, you must capture and jail as many goblins/creatures as possible, and all doors in the prison must be made of glass.

== Equaland ==

Equaland: where we are all Equal, besides the Almighty Leader. Each dwarf must have their own bedroom, dining room, etc. Make a large tower in the center of your perfect land and put "The Leader" in it. Then make some kind of mechanism to kill the dwarves inside their dwelling, complete with levers so that The Leader can choose who dies next. If dwarves have one too many friends kill them, if they eat too much food kill them, etc.

== World Domination ==
Pretend you are an evil mastermind. Now come up with some device or machine to render the world (or at least your portion of the map) totally unliveable, aside from, of course, your hidden lair.

Suggestions:
* Flood the map with water/magma (may require building walls around the edge of the map)
* Build an "Earthquake Machine" (the entire map is supported by a single support, which is connected to a lever)
* Build an extensive holding cell network for "scientific purposes". Fill it with megabeasts and elephants in secret. Have a lever that lets everything free to feed on the general population.


== Government in Exile ==
All dwarves are either nobles or in the military. The only useful dwarves you'll have will be your broker, manager, mayor, bookkeeper, and dungeon master. If you can survive until the sheriff arrives, transfer your entire military into the fortress guard. With a little luck, and a lot of exported roasts, you too can rule without proletarian interference.

== Stay Awhile, and Listen ==
Create a world with a lot of large caves and make it possible to see them on the embark map. Build a Fortress near a large cave with a lot of big angry monsters in it (hopefully not too close) and loot lying around that becomes a frontier town for adventurers seeking to clear out the nearby 'dungeon'. Train up dwarves to become parties of heroes who will descend into the dungeon for fame and fortune (or more likely severed limbs and death). Parties should only be about four or less. You can defend your fortress but luring monsters out into your siege engines is cheating. Give yourself points for large monsters killed and treasure claimed. 
BONUS: Only solo adventurers are allowed to enter the dungeon. 
BONUS: Only use 'Thieves' to steal loot and create traps inside the dungeon.

== The Monolith ==
As the inevitability of a fortress-wide mental breakdown looms over every single fortress why not have something that alludes to that precipice of [[insanity]]. Like the book and feature film, 2001: A Space Odyssey you must have a Monolith. This has to be made from [[obsidian]] and have a completely smooth surface (You cannot build it from blocks) You can have it be any size as long as it is outside, at least 2 tiles thick to ensure there are no pillar tiles, and has about the same ratio of width to height as it does in the movie (1:4:9) to make it as close to the real thing as possible. It would be preferable to make it large so that it seems to be dominating the landscape and your dwarves' psyche. The bigger the better.

*If the rock obsidian strata isn't deep enough in parts to make a monolith feasible consider an extremely elaborate scaffold of lava and water pools and screw pumps to create obsidian in a large rectangular block in the exact same dimensional criteria as above. Smooth and you're finished. You get kudos for doing this as both reservoirs of magma and water pose serious threats to a fortress if scrupulous engineering methods are not used. Your dwarves are truly insane to attempt this.

== Ceremonial Sacrifices ==

Build an amazingly complex or spectacular killing device. A shaft that extends across the entire Z-plane is a good start. A constantly shifting maze of atomsmasher drawbridges is another. For the minimalist, a very confined space where you will drop a dwarf wrestler along with the gobbos once in a while. Perhaps a waterslide that carries your prisoner all the way down into a chasm? Whatever your idea, build it and dedicate your fort to the construction, maintenance and improvement of your device.

Do not kill any of your invaders. Capture them using cage traps, and them set them off in your device. Keep a record of the number of victims you drop into it.

== Noblesse requiro ==

Build your fortress to please the sick, twisted, evil nobles needs. Build a execution chamber for your rowdy dwarves and build a torture chamber for your dungeon master, using your imagination! Use this to punish pathetic dwarves who dare rebel. Build palaces for your nobles and pamper them in every way. Pour most of your resources into a beautiful place for nobles to live whilst letting your dwarves sleep in tiny, pathetic rooms. The only exception is your mayor, who rises from the rank of the disgusting peons. He must live in squalor as well, preferably next to noble rooms to so the nobles can taunt him. score yourself according to how happy your nobles are, and your worth.

== Stranded Scout Squad ==

The only items you can bring weapons, ammo, and armor (no picks). The only skills you can hand out are military. The only animals you can bring are war dogs. See how it goes.

[[Category:Guides]]

40d:Exploit

2008-12-17T19:51:21Z

Macdjord: /* The Castle of Ice in the Lake of Fire */ - word choice

An '''exploit''' is a quirk of a game that allows players to gain what other players may consider an unfair advantage, usually by making use of a feature that is not working properly or which defies logic. 'Exploiting the game' is distinct from '[[cheating]]' because exploits occur within the game as written and do not need any external [[utilities]] or [[modding]]. Whether a player chooses to make use of an exploit or not depends on their personal taste; given that [[Dwarf Fortress]] is a single-player game, the user alone can decide what liberties to take and what options to shun.

Some exploits are listed below.

== Self-powered pumps ==

It is possible to produce a perpetual motion water pump where the act of pumping actually powers itself! See [[screw pump]] and [[water wheel]] for details.

== Atom Smasher ==

A [[drawbridge]], when rapidly triggered on and off, can be used to obliterate any creature or item beneath it. Nothing short of a [[demon]] or [[megabeast]] is capable of withstanding a drawbridge crush.

== Trap fields ==

Laying a field of [[trap]]s with a significant-enough depth can protect your fortress from all invaders with no need to maintain a [[military]]. Traps are somehow intelligent enough to distinguish between [[pet]]s and allies while being dangerous to enemies and wild animals.

Many players do not consider this an exploit.

== Get back to work! ==

When a dwarf is "On Break", it is possible to draft this civilian into the military and then undraft the civilian in order to get him to cancel the break. This does give an unhappy [[thought]] (but only if the dwarf has no military and/or civilian skills), so it is not a significant exploit and some may consider it a perfectly acceptable gameplay method.

== Quantum stockpiles ==

By designating a garbage pit [[zone]] instead of a [[stockpile]], you may store an infinite number of objects in a single tile by dumping them, then reclaiming them when you want to use them.

A similar effect may be achieved by building a wall two tiles in front of a catapult and digging a channel between the wall and catapult. By firing the catapult at the wall, the stone falls into the trench. The stone will pile up in the channel, putting it out of sight and out of mind. Not only does this train [[siege operator]]s, but it clears the stone that your legendary [[miner]]s leave.

Another way to quantum stockpile is to not have appropriate stockpiles for items you move to the trading depot. The depot can hold an arbitrary number of items, and those items will not be removed if there is nowhere else to place them. This is especially useful for mechanisms you with to trade, as there is currently no good method for finding all those mechanisms without searching the entire contents of your fortress barring making sure they are the closest thing to the Depot. Being in the depot makes them closest by definition. Other items without an appropriate category can similarly be usefully stored for trading this way.

== Cooking alcohol ==

[[Alcohol]] can be cooked without requiring many other ingredients, producing solid food that is eaten and not imbibed. Doing so is a highly efficient means of producing food, as each plant produces five units of alcohol.

Though undeniably an exploit, many people make use of this feature. It will eventually be plugged with [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_req_101-150.html Req129]:
<blockquote>Req129, IMPROVE COOKING, (Future): More food. Food should require a substrate, rather than just being seeds etc. Seeds, syrups, drinks and other such objects can contribute to the likes/dislike checks as they do now, but they shouldn't add to the number created. A good roll could lead to the recipe being given a name and saved to the entity definition, where it can then be encountered in other cities in subsequent games.</blockquote>

==Bling Bolts==

Adding a [[decoration]] to a stack of [[bolt]]s causes a huge [[value]] increase. The value of the decoration is multiplied by the number of bolts in the stack. This is considered a [[bug]].

==Bookkeeper Exercise Program==

Changing your [[bookkeeper]]'s settings to maximum accuracy causes him to work furiously in his office, training quickly up to [[legendary]].

==Nudist Fortress==

Dwarves get a bad [[thought]] from having [[clothing]] [[wear]] out, but nothing happens if they can't find replacement clothes. As long as you don't make new clothes, they will happily go naked. This also avoids the problem of messy dwarves leaving clothing strewn around the fortress.

==Recycling Archery Range==

In an [[archery range]], [[bolt]]s that hit the target are are always destroyed, but bolts that miss can be saved. Build a [[channel]] between the [[archery target]] and the back wall of the range, and [[stairs]] to get into it. Amazingly, the bolts will no longer shatter on impact with the wall, but fall intact into the channel. Reclaim the bolts, and your dwarves will re-use them for target practice. This exploit has the unfortunate side effect of splitting up [[stack]]s of bolts, so your dwarves will make a separate trip for each individual bolt.

This trick will work for a [[ballista]] as well. Be careful for friendly fire.

==Merchant Swindles==

There are a variety of ways to cheat [[merchant]]s out of their cargo without seizing it. Tearing down the [[trade depot]] while the merchants are there is the easiest way.

Also, marking items for [[dump]]ing, using view creature mode ({{key|v}}), the stocks menu ({{key|z}}), or items in room mode ({{key|t}}), lets you relieve merchants of their goods. Just reclaim the items from your garbage dump [[zone]] later. You can even take clothing and equipment off merchant and guards this way.

The merchants will still leave disappointed if they have less value in goods when they leave the map than when they entered {{verify}}.

== The Castle of Ice in the Lake of Fire ==

[[Construction]]s are indestructible, regardless of material, and walls of wood and ice easily stand up to [[magma]]. Entire fortresses can be built of ice in temperate climates equally impervious to catapults, the summer sun, or a thousand tons of boiling lava.

On a similar note, all buildings and furniture are equally strong - indestructible to most creatures, tissue paper to others. Witness a single troll bashing through a multilayered set of [[adamantine]] and [[steel]] doors, while an army of Elite Hammergoblins are stymied by a single [[glass]] [[portal]].

40d Talk:Fire

2008-12-17T19:44:50Z

Macdjord: /* Spontaneous Combustion? */ Link to Talk:Alcohol#Booze_Bombs

How does fire spread in the new version. I don't have magma on my map so I haven't been able to experiment.

Maybe someone with experience could write up on the risks, ie how it spreads, how long it burns, how dwarfs react and what can be done to fight/prevent it. --[[User:Lucid|Lucid]] 21:09, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

Could someone test to see what levels of water will extinguish fire somehow? Perhaps a fortress at high risk for fire could have emergency floodgates set up to dump precise reservoirs of water at important areas like the living quarters or food/booze stockpiles.

god save us if it is affected by the mud/blood bug too [[User:Thatguyyaknow|Thatguyyaknow]] 13:07, 8 November 2007 (EST)

no it ain't the blood bug, it's the fire bug. Someone copy and paste it from the old wiki. --[[User:Frostedfire|Frostedfire]] 22:14, 14 November 2007 (EST)

I can confirm that fire spreads to adjucent squares. My fortress catched fire (long story) and wooden barrels and bins on stockpiles burned. When they completety burned out their contents catched fire and many piles of 20 !!leather!!, 20 !!cloth!! and 20 or more !!seeds!! generated '''very''' heavy lags. I didn't pay attention if it spreads diagonally but a burning item on the floor makes all 8 squares around it "warm stone wall" just as magma do to it's 4 directly adjacent squares.--[[User:Another|Another]] 14:26, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Is there a way to intentionally start a fire? [[User:Diabl0658|Diabl0658]] 20:12, 5 January 2008 (EST)
:Dig into the side of a pool of lava. Remove a construction holding back lava. Open a wooden door holding back lava. Open a floodgate to lava. Some combination of pumps, stairs, ramps, walls, and stockpiles will allow you to choose what gets set on fire and where. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 00:59, 9 March 2008 (EST)

Fire doesn't seem to spread by walking near it though... I forbade a few burning corpses and the dwarves had no problem stepping over it without catching fire.

Possibly fire on items like clothing or corpses will only spread to dwarves touching it.

A more informative page than "fire sucks" might be useful. Maybe a list of fire sources, what objects will and won't burn, how fire spreads and measures you can take to limit the damage or stop it. Maybe telling your dwarves to dump water in your hallways to keep a nice [1/7] coating?

In the 2D version 0.23, fire was like an invisible disease - dwarves didn't know they had it, it was contagious, and it killed them. Thus it was a major source of [[fun]]. In this version - I don't know yet. --[[User:Jellyfishgreen|Jellyfishgreen]] 09:05, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

== Fireproof silk? ==

i noticed that cave spider silk clothes dont catch fire. i had a guy incinerated by magma touching him - he managed to move away and his silk clothing was all that was left [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 14:06, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

== Forest Fire ==

I just started a new game near a volcano, in a forest. In the first winter, a fire imp left the caldera, and the forest burst into flame. Anyone see this before? The entire map went up in smoke... I lost 5 dwarves to it.
--[[User:Mabmoro|mabmoro]] 22:01, 31 August 2008 (EDT)

:I've seen this multiple times on my current map, haven't lost dwarves, but did have a dwarf caravan run straight into one... As when I tried to pin down what started it and why, all the fire imps were back in the volcano (if they ever left to begin with), but at the exact center of the ring of fire was a pile of groundhog bones - so I think a fire imp wandered out, saw a groundhog, and fried it, causing a massive fire... that or groundhogs spontaneously combust now. Could probably use channels or walls as firebreaks to keep the whole map from burning when it happens, embark with a magma vent that (hopefully) doesn't reach the surface rather than a volcano, or try to close off the top of the volcano. Probably simpler to wall in any surface areas you're using and just tell your dwarves to stay inside when you see a fire though. --[[User:Nethras|Nethras]] 15:02, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

:I had a forest fire the other day - the burn pattern indicated it started in two places approximately simultaneously, in the vicinity of a [[Fire Man]] and a Cougar (though I never saw any bones). The Fire Man had been busy elsewhere with no such effect though, despite killing numerous groundhogs, a couple of Mules, a pet cat, and one of my dwarves.
:The fire didn't manage to enter my encampment, probably due to the foot traffic killing off the vegetation around the entrance, but it did spread across the rest of that z-level. No harm was done to any living creature which encountered it though, as far as I could tell. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 16:50, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

: Similar situation, I used a forest fire to kill a bunch of satyrs by trapping single satyrs in cage traps. I couldn't kill them otherwise because they aren't hostile and aren't animals, so military and hunters wouldn't touch them, but they do set off cage traps and once one is trapped, the other satyrs stayed close. So I scattered some traps near the caldera and waited; eventually a fire imp popped out, started a fire, and about fifteen satyrs all got roasted by the fire. [[User:Calenth|Calenth]]

: I've seen the aftermath of similar (burnt forest, caldera, fire imps, missing wildlife) and can verify forest fires are currently (40d) restricted to the same Z-level. --[[User:Jellyfishgreen|Jellyfishgreen]] 06:16, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

== Stockpile exploit ==

"Fires won't cross an empty stockpile, providing an even fast way to create firebreaks."...not what happened at my own fortress. Maybe it doesn't apply if there's grass underneath? Needs more testing... – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:MagicGuigz|MagicGuigz]]
: I'll admit I'm not talking from my own experience. I got it off of the bug reports forum. [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=25600.0] – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]]

==Spontaneous Combustion?==
A bunch of goblin clothes and bodies in my entrance hall just went up in flames mysteriously. There are no fire imps left on the map, the Magma Man is far away in the magma vent near the bottom (10 z-levels and 3 screens away - the site isn't even near the magma pipe). There's just a bunch of smoke and burning goblin clothes. The heck? --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 15:12, 12 December 2008 (EST)
:Maybe it was in the bug forum, but I remember hearing of a similar known bug. {racks brain} Something to do with materials left in cages remaining tied to their owner. So if you strip the clothing off a goblin while he's in a cage, then drop the cage into lava, his clothes catch on fire. Or maybe it was the other way around. Assuming, of course, this is an example of this bug. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 16:02, 12 December 2008 (EST)
::I did drop a goblin cage into lava... I don't remember actually stripping gear off of him, but he may have dropped something before getting caged... Must find a way to use this offensively... probably involving a goblin cage stockpile near lava, a goblin clothes stockpile near the entrance, and a booze stockpile immediately adjacent... --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 16:17, 12 December 2008 (EST)
:What actually happens is thus: When the cage is destroyed by magma, the items inside mysteriously teleport to the precise location the caged goblin was trapped in, on fire. This bug is 100% repeatable and afaik not fixed yet. Hmmm! Replace the trap with a barrel after capture, and you might have a fairly reliable booze bomb. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 17:56, 12 December 2008 (EST)
:: If you figure it out, be sure to post the method in [[Talk:Alcohol#Booze Bombs]]. If you're going to be experimenting, why don't you try testing out the existing theoretical methods?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 14:44, 17 December 2008 (EST)

40d Talk:Alcohol

2008-12-17T19:42:31Z

Macdjord: Giving title to first section

== Booze Bombs ==

What kind of damage do explosions do? I've searched the raw files but can't find it. I'd either have to guess it's concussive (like a cave in) or fire (not burn) damage. --[[User:Heliopios|Heliopios]] 09:22, 4 December 2007 (EST)

:Yeah, someone should probably put in a part talking about explosions in this article. Notably how to use them as weapons. I currently have no idea.--[[User:Smoking Gnu|Smoking Gnu]] 16:41, 5 December 2007 (EST)

::I tried some experiments with alcohol and magma, but the booze just evaporated instead of exploding. Then the fire imps came.--[[User:Smoking Gnu|Smoking Gnu]] 16:10, 16 December 2007 (EST)

:::If this is true, explosions might be triggered only by fire and not temperature. Magma isn't actually on fire, it just has a tendency to ignite items whose ignition point is lower than the temperature of magma (i.e. most of 'em). If the booze boils first, it might not ignite. Though alcohol gas would create a pretty hefty explosion once you did have a spark... Great, now I have the urge to research how combustion actually works in the real world, given that certain materials might be heated to a temperature they'd burn at without igniting to oxidize. --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 13:33, 28 December 2007 (EST)

:::: I think I know how to make a booze bomb. You need a single tile full of magma, on a remote hatch. Directly under that is a set of floor bars, over an empty pit. The barrels are set up on the tiles around the bars. When you open the hatch, the magma drops, making a one-shot lava waterfall. This [[Magma#Similarities|creates magma mist]], which is [[Magma#Differences|known to burn things]]. I haven't tried this yet. Can anyone verify? --16:59, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

== Is Cooked Booze still a drink? ==

Does eating cooked booze still count as alcohol intake for happiness, work speed, etc.? It seems to quench thirst and hunger simultaneously. --[[User:HotSake|HotSake]] 20:15, 12 December 2007 (EST)
:If this is true, I'm cooking all of my booze right now.--[[User:Heliopios|Heliopios]] 21:11, 12 December 2007 (EST)
::I'm very interested in this as well. I always thought cooking booze was sort of a 'bad' thing because then the dwarves would have nothing to drink. [[User:Sinoth|sinoth]] 09:31, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:::Keep a surplus of drinks on hand (about 10x as many drinks as you have dwarves, as I posted below). However, don't hesitate to cook anything beyond that. Since you get 5x as many meals out of ''plants->booze->cooked booze'' as you do out of just plants, more of your plant production can be reserved for brewing instead of eating. Furthermore, big stacks of prepared meals are too big to fit in barrels (always make "lavish meals" for maximum stack size), and by brewing all your plants, you'll empty all your plant barrels, allowing you to store even more booze in them.
:::The availability of barrels is the biggest constraint on your food and booze production.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 19:55, 11 January 2008 (EST)

::Oh, um, no, cooked booze does not quench thirst.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:10, 11 January 2008 (EST)

== Fastest Growing Beer Crop? ==

So, anyone know offhand what's the fastest crop to grow if you want to grow a LOT of alcohol really quickly? I'm mostly interested in it for cooking, so it doesn't really have to match a dwarf's favorite beer or anything. [[User:KiTA|KiTA]] 03:31, 28 December 2007 (EST)
:Plump helmets.--[[User:Heliopios|Heliopios]] 04:23, 28 December 2007 (EST)
:Actually, pig tails are just as fast, but yes, plump helmets are good too. It helps to grow 2 kinds though, so you can cook one kind and leave another for drinking. --[[User:Valdemar|Valdemar]] 10:20, 28 December 2007 (EST)

==How much do I need? ==
Strange that this question isn't even mentioned sideways. How much will ''get me by'' vs ''make the stumpies happy''? [[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 08:32, 11 January 2008 (EST)

== Where's the alcohol / food mod? ==
I think there should be a link to these mods at the bottom of this page, under 'see also', or something, I'm struggling to find them. --[[User:Markavian|Markavian]]
:that would go in the mods section, not the standard area of the wiki --[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 15:36, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Unfortunate accident

2008-11-20T19:13:17Z

Macdjord: /* Should that really be here? */ Better than the original!

== Walk the Plank ==

''These threads were formerly at [[Talk:Walk the Plank]], which was merged with this article.''

===Applied use===
How, precisely, are you supposed to get your victim to walk to the kill zone? I don't see that mentioned here. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 09:51, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

''...Build another lever at the end of the plank and link it to both the bridge and the support; Set the workshop profile for the lever to the noble you would like to be rid of; Pull the lever '' [[User:Random832|Random832]] 10:29, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Though it's not clear to me why the bridge needs to be retractable. It seems like this would work just as well with a permanent bridge. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 10:31, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Why do you need all the trouble with bonus mechanisms and supports? Just build a bridge over the lava and put the lever on it. That way it is even re-usable. You might want to mention this here, because this seems needlessly complex.--[[User:Destor|Destor]] 11:12, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Can you actually build the lever ''on'' the bridge though? I don't think you can stack things like that. --[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 11:17, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

:Indeed you can't.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 11:20, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

:No, you build the lever on the platform that gets collapsed, which is not a bridge. The bridge is so the platform can be walked to without being connected to adjacent floors. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 01:20, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Bridges are way better way of doing this... Just get the noble between 2 locked doors (lock them when he/she comes in) and bridge and you're done. It is also reusable. --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 18:15, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

=== Suggest Merge ===

This should be merged into [[Unfortunate accident]]. 
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 14:47, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

:Seconded.
:--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 19:20, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

::Can someone add the "This page has been suggested for merging" template to the article? I don't know how.
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 10:53, 3 November 2008 (EST)

:::Since there were no objections, I just went ahead and merged it. The merge can be undone if objections arise.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 13:06, 3 November 2008 (EST)

::::Right now, [[Unfortunate accident]] has ''no'' talk page. Could you merge this the talks as well as the article?

:::::Done.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 16:15, 3 November 2008 (EST)

=== Platform Collapse ===
How is one supposed to build the lever at the end of the bridge? I tried building a floor to plant the lever on, and while the dwarves did try, the floor just instantly collapsed when complete. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 14:00, 2 November 2008 (EST)

== Should that really be here? ==
I don't know about that 'walk the plank' section being in this article, it runs counter to the tone of the rest of it. The other sections are tongue-in-cheek, and then suddenly it starts blowing a raspberry all over your face. Unless someone could rewrite it to fit the tone. That'd be impressive. 
--[[User:Navian|Navian]] 10:23, 20 November 2008 (EST)

:Your lever is ready, m'lord.
:--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 13:24, 20 November 2008 (EST)

::Well-done, sir. Well done. You are a champion!
::--[[User:Navian|Navian]] 13:33, 20 November 2008 (EST)

::Indeed. It's actually clearer in what to do and what the effect will be than the original version.
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 14:13, 20 November 2008 (EST)

40d Talk:Utilities

2008-11-20T18:12:47Z

Macdjord: /* Regional Prospector? */ Symbol list

__TOC__

=== Dwarf Fortress File Depot ===
Would be great to get the majority of these uploaded to the [http://dffd.wimbli.com/ Dwarf Fortress File Depot (DFFD)]. I'm having trouble with some of the currently linked hosting sites. I've just gotten Regional Prospector, so I'll see about getting that one up. Thanks guys! --[[User:SlMagnvox|SlMagnvox]] 14:33, 25 February 2008 (EST)

<hr>

=== Accent Removal ===
I added the accent removal utility here from [[Accent Removal]], since that's about to be deleted. However, none of Wikipedia's show-hide-box stuff works here (I assumed it would...), so it's a big glob of pre-formatted text in there that should be hidden. Could someone do it? [[User:Zardus|Zardus]] 00:51, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
:[[User:Jackard/Accent_Removal|Accent removal tutorial]] contains detailed instructions on the subject. I think, we could replace the whole thing on utility page with one link. [[User:Nophotoavailable|Nophotoavailable]] 20:58, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

=== AutoHotKey ===
Should autohotkey be added as a utility tool for dwarf fortress? I know a few forum users have used it to do repetitive tasks like room designations, maybe it could have its own page and a few dwarf fortress specific script?--[[User:Thehunterunseen|Thehunterunseen]] 20:43, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

:Ive been looking for a macro program that works within dwarf fortress and thats free. Havent found a good program thats the combination of both. What do you use? --[[User:Mizipzor|Mizipzor]] 20:51, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

::autohotkey [http://www.autohotkey.com/] is a program like that --[[User:Thehunterunseen|Thehunterunseen]] 21:13, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

:::That was the program I used. Wierd. For me, when I inputed "6" for moving one step right... it moved like 8 steps right or something. Couldnt figure out why. Any ideas? --[[User:Mizipzor|Mizipzor]] 22:57, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

::::I know that {{k|shift}} + {{k|→}} = 10×{{k|→}}. Could that have something to do with it? --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 23:17, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

:::::I use "Send {LeftArrow}{Enter}{Enter}", as a test to simply have the wall/floor im building to be placed one step to the right instead of where the cursor actually is. As previously said, however, it didnt work. --[[User:Mizipzor|Mizipzor]] 07:05, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

::::::That might be because the {LeftArrow} part isn't right. It's supposed to be just {Left}. I've downloaded the program myself and am not having any issues with it in DF.. I'm running XP, and use it in fullscreen mode, if that helps any. --[[User:Hesitris|Hesitris]] 18:53, 12 November 2007 (EST)

: So could some people who actually know some autohotkey scripts make an article and submit some? --[[User:Thehunterunseen|Thehunterunseen]] 13:37, 6 November 2007 (EST)

::I use it and more or less know how it works but as soon as I use it inside DF it bugs out completely and I have no idea why. --[[User:Mizipzor|Mizipzor]] 17:56, 6 November 2007 (EST)

:::I have a number of scripts that I use, but they randomly bug out for no apparent reason. They will work fine in notepad (ie, output everything exactly as I expect), but be only partially executing and then failing in DF. Again, sometimes they work fine. I could post them and how they work if someone wants. FYI, I am on Vista and that may be an issue. --[[User:Geofferic|Geofferic]] 02:39, 19 November 2007 (EST)

::::I'm not sure how CPU cycles and the buffer interact in Vista. Is your FPS low? Perhaps a key is dropping out of the buffer but DF isn't recognizing it due to lag? Or lag might be making the buffer overflow. It might depend on how autohotkey sends keystrokes, I don't know if it simulates a key press or directly input ssomething into the buffer. You could try a small sleep(50), or the equivalent, in autohotkey and see if that helps. Also, make sure it isn't losing focus for some reason due to background programs (although that would be strange) -Gotthard

:::::I think it's a lag issue in DF. I've yet to figure out exactly what is causing lag for me. I think it's pathing with too many dwarfs and too complex of a hallway system over too many Z levels. Also, I think playing very large maps causes me to lag, as well, but I think that's related to the pathing problem and all those other creatures trying to path. It definitely got better in this version, tho. I will hold off on trying to say definitively what's up with AuthoHotkey until after the next patch. --[[User:Geofferic|Geofferic]] 03:50, 21 November 2007 (EST)

::::::AHK does tend to do wierd stuff in DF, but most of it is predictable. A lot of wierd errors that make no sense can be fixed by explicitely telling the script to focus on the Dwarf Fortress window, as well as generous Sleep statements. I found while rewalling a 30x30 outline, sleep 100 worked fine for the first two sides but posted about half of the second two. Sleep 150 placed the second two somewhat erraticly. Sleep 200 got the second two just fine. --[[User:Knivesu|Knivesu]] 10:22, 23 December 2007 (EST)

=== Dwarf Foreman ===
Foreman is looking at the wrong address for the units... which is not a good sign, since I've seen it in the address it seems to be looking at. I've also seen it bounce around. Definitely not a good sign if the list location isn't static. Or we're just looking at the wrong one completely. --[[User:AzureLightning|AzureLightning]]

:It's pretty easy to find the addresses for this for new versions. Running the program in the directory with the new version gives you the check= value, and the others are moderately easy to suss. Also, I don't know exactly how it works or why it works, but from C->D->E start and pos were incremented 0x1000 each version, so laziness dictates trying that in future. [[User:Qalnor|Qalnor]] 16:37, 9 December 2007 (EST)

Is there any info on what the offsets (dwarfidpos, critter_start, profession_start) actually refer to? I'm capable enough with finding memory addresses, but exactly what profession_start is eludes me. Even dwarfidpos is a little unclear.

dwarfidpos = Address of Dwarf Race ID
critter_start = Start of Main Creature Vector
profession_start = Offset into Main Creature Vector the array of jobs.
[[User:Jifodus|Jifodus]] 00:41, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Does anyone know the values for v0.28.181.39f? --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 18:18, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

:Still no word on 39f? Perhaps we can get a little write-up on how to discover the appropriate values added to the foreman homepage. That way, when a new version of DF is released, any number of people could search for and contribute the new values, instead of depending on the few people who already know the process. --[[SWSaunders|SWSaunders]] 09:10, 12 August 2008 (ADT)

::Thanks Jerethi50, beat me to it. When I went to enter the values you already had! SWSaunders: What I did (having never done this before) was to download a memory viewer (HxD hexeditor) and then look at the old version vs the new version in memory. In the old version, I found the character at the dwarfidpos address and searched forward till I found that in the new file. For critter_start I went to the old process and found it there, then searched forward in the new process till I found the pattern match (it wasn't too far). The data was different but the pattern was the same. The profession offset hasn't changed so I left it as is. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 11:13, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

:::That's exactly how I do it, except I have written a program that does it for me, since it saves time. I also tend to forget to post Dwarf Foreman's new config during updating. Usually I remember to update the tables at http://www.geocities.com/jifodus/tables/ini_jifodus/ and that has all the information you'd need (critter_start=[creature_data].base; profession_start=[creature_data].jobs); however, it seems I didn't update it this last go around. If you wander around my website, you should be able to find enough information posted there (provided you can understand it all) to learn how to update foreman for yourself. --[[User:Jifodus|Jifodus]] 22:22, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

To make Foreman compatible with previous versions of Dwarf Fortress, update the config file as shown below.

==== v0.27.168.33g ====
<pre>check=008c407c
critter_start=01427B50
dwarfidpos=01248AC8
profession_start=45c</pre>

==== v0.27.173.38a ====
<pre>
check=01E30A43
critter_start=01450E98
dwarfidpos=01271E10
profession_start=45c
</pre>

==== v0.27.176.38a ====
<pre>
check=023401d3
critter_start=01463378
dwarfidpos=01284188
profession_start=480
</pre>

==== v0.27.176.38b ====
<pre>
check=01e3dbcc
critter_start=01463570
dwarfidpos=01284188
profession_start=0470
</pre>

==== v0.27.176.38c ====
<pre>
check=01cf4654
critter_start=01464570
dwarfidpos=01285188
profession_start=0470
</pre>

==== v0.28.181.39a ====
<pre>
check=01aa9d3a
critter_start=015124f4
dwarfidpos=0131f1b8
profession_start=0474
</pre>

==== v0.28.181.39b ====
<pre>
check=01a16957
critter_start=015134f4
dwarfidpos=013201b8
profession_start=0474
</pre>

==== v0.28.181.39c ====
<pre>
check=01b89dbc
critter_start=01513514
dwarfidpos=013201d8
profession_start=0474
</pre>

==== v0.28.181.39d ====
<pre>
check=01b0747e
critter_start=0151f93c
dwarfidpos=0132c1e0
profession_start=0474
</pre>

==== v0.28.181.39e ====
<pre>
check=01b76baa
critter_start=0151f93c
dwarfidpos=0132c1e0
profession_start=0474
</pre>

==== v0.28.181.39f ====
<pre>
check=036276be
critter_start=01575dec
dwarfidpos=01382690
profession_start=0474
</pre>

==== v0.28.181.40a ====
<pre>
check=03186cb3
critter_start=0158222c
dwarfidpos=0138e698
profession_start=0474
</pre>

==Regional Prospector?==
I notice the Regional Prospector utility is no longer listed - what happened to it and did it get updated to the newest version? --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 05:20, 20 November 2008 (EST)
:The functionality is now provided on the embark screen, so the utility is obsolete. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 08:38, 20 November 2008 (EST)
::Except it really isn't. Yeah, I can have it search the world for a site for me, but it doesn't tell me where exactly those features are - so if I want to play with size or location a little bit I don't know if I'm losing anything. It also returns only one hit, which can make finding the type of site you want hard, especially as some variables (tree cover, relative elevation, diversity of alignment/biomes) can't be searched over making that first hit with an underground river and magma pipe (or whatever) not necessarily the one you want. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 10:42, 20 November 2008 (EST)
:::Yes, it is. Regional Prospector would make the game show various features on the local embark map such as chasms, magma vents and magma pools. This is now supported natively by changing the "SHOW_EMBARK_???" variables in the init.txt file to "ALWAYS". Same functionality. The site finder feature which you're referring to is an additional feature, which indeed doesn't yet work perfectly. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 11:06, 20 November 2008 (EST)

::::Similar variables have to be set during worldgen, although I believe they are set to "show" by default.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 12:44, 20 November 2008 (EST)

: Say, does anyone know of a list that explains the symbols that Prospector uses? It took me forever to be certain that a red single tilde was a magma pool, while a red double-tilde (a.k.a. squiggly equal sign) was a magma ''pipe'', and there are still a couple symbols I'm not sure about...
:--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:12, 20 November 2008 (EST)

40d:Exploit

2008-11-14T19:05:16Z

Macdjord: /* The Castle of Ice in the Lake of Fire */ Glass doors are called portal. This is more acurate.

An '''exploit''' is a quirk of a game that allows players to gain what other players may consider an unfair advantage, usually by making use of a feature that is not working properly or which defies logic. 'Exploiting the game' is distinct from '[[cheating]]' because exploits occur game as written and do not need any external [[utilities]] or [[modding]]. Whether a player chooses to make use of an exploit or not depends on their personal taste; given that [[Dwarf Fortress]] is a single-player game, the user alone can decide what liberties to take and what options to shun.

Some exploits are listed below.

== Self-powered pumps ==

It is possible to produce a perpetual motion water pump where the act of pumping actually powers itself! See [[screw pump]] and [[water wheel]] for details.

== Atom Smasher ==

A [[drawbridge]], when rapidly triggered on and off, can be used to obliterate any creature or item beneath it. Nothing short of a [[demon]] or [[megabeast]] is capable of withstanding a drawbridge crush.

== Trap fields ==

Laying a field of [[trap]]s with a significant-enough depth can protect your fortress from all invaders with no need to maintain a [[military]]. Traps are somehow intelligent enough to distinguish between [[pet]]s and allies while being dangerous to enemies and wild animals.

Many players do not consider this an exploit.

== Get back to work! ==

When a dwarf is "On Break", it is possible to draft this civilian into the military and then undraft the civilian in order to get him to cancel the break. This does give an unhappy [[thought]] (but only if the dwarf has no military and/or civilian skills), so it is not a significant exploit and some may consider it a perfectly acceptable gameplay method.

== Quantum stockpiles ==

By designating a garbage pit [[zone]] instead of a [[stockpile]], you may store an infinite number of objects in a single tile by dumping them, then reclaiming them when you want to use them.

A similar effect may be achieved by building a wall two tiles in front of a catapult and digging a channel between the wall and catapult. By firing the catapult at the wall, the stone falls into the trench. The stone will pile up in the channel, putting it out of sight and out of mind. Not only does this train [[siege operator]]s, but it clears the stone that your legendary [[miner]]s leave.

== Cooking alcohol ==

[[Alcohol]] can be cooked without requiring many other ingredients, producing solid food that is eaten and not imbibed. Doing so is a highly efficient means of producing food, as each plant produces five units of alcohol.

Though undeniably an exploit, many people make use of this feature. It will eventually be plugged with [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_req_101-150.html Req129]:
<blockquote>Req129, IMPROVE COOKING, (Future): More food. Food should require a substrate, rather than just being seeds etc. Seeds, syrups, drinks and other such objects can contribute to the likes/dislike checks as they do now, but they shouldn't add to the number created. A good roll could lead to the recipe being given a name and saved to the entity definition, where it can then be encountered in other cities in subsequent games.</blockquote>

==Bling Bolts==

Adding a [[decoration]] to a stack of [[bolt]]s causes a huge [[value]] increase. The value of the decoration is multiplied by the number of bolts in the stack. This is considered a [[bug]].

==Bookkeeper Exercise Program==

Changing your [[bookkeeper]]'s settings to maximum accuracy causes him to work furiously in his office, training quickly up to [[legendary]].

==Nudist Fortress==

Dwarves get a bad [[thought]] from having [[clothing]] [[wear]] out, but nothing happens if they can't find replacement clothes. As long as you don't make new clothes, they will happily go naked. This also avoids the problem of messy dwarves leaving clothing strewn around the fortress.

==Recycling Archery Range==

In an [[archery range]], [[bolt]]s that hit the target are are always destroyed, but bolts that miss can be saved. Build a [[channel]] between the [[archery target]] and the back wall of the range, and [[stairs]] to get into it. Amazingly, the bolts will no longer shatter on impact with the wall, but fall intact into the channel. Reclaim the bolts, and your dwarves will re-use them for target practice. This exploit has the unfortunate side effect of splitting up [[stack]]s of bolts, so your dwarves will make a separate trip for each individual bolt.

This trick will work for a [[ballista]] as well. Be careful for friendly fire.

==Merchant Swindles==

There are a variety of ways to cheat [[merchant]]s out of their cargo without seizing it. Tearing down the [[trade depot]] while the merchants are there is the easiest way.

Also, marking items for [[dump]]ing, using view creature mode ({{key|v}}), the stocks menu ({{key|z}}), or items in room mode ({{key|t}}), lets you relieve merchants of their goods. Just reclaim the items from your garbage dump [[zone]] later. You can even take clothing and equipment off merchant and guards this way.

The merchants will still leave disappointed if they have less value in goods when they leave the map than when they entered {{verify}}.

== The Castle of Ice in the Lake of Fire ==

[[Construction]]s are indestructible, regardless of material, and walls of wood and ice easily stand up to [[magma]]. Entire fortresses can be built of ice in temperate climates equally impervious to catapults, the summer sun, or a thousand tons of boiling lava.

On a similar note, all buildings and furniture are equally strong - indestructible to most creatures, nothing at all to others. Witness a single troll bashing through a multilayered set of [[adamantine]] and [[steel]] doors, while an army of Hammergoblins are stymied by a [[glass]] [[portal]].

40d:Door

2008-11-14T17:25:30Z

Macdjord: /* Door strength */ adding converse

'''Doors''' are [[furniture]] which can be built from [[rock]] (at a [[mason's workshop]]), [[wood]] (at a [[carpenter's workshop]]), or [[metal]] (at a [[metalsmith's forge]]). You can also make [[glass]] doors (called '''portals''') at a [[glass furnace]]. The symbol for a stone door is that of a solid tile, the color of its material, with a cross of a different color across it (e.g. {{Raw Tile|┼|Gray|Silver}}) Doors of different materials use different tiles, because Toady hates tileset makers{{verify}}. Glass doors (or portals) use the symbol {{Raw Tile|O|#0f0|#080}}. Metal doors use the symbol {{Raw Tile|╪|#ff0|#880}}. Wood doors use the symbol {{Raw Tile|║|#ccc|#880}}.

Doors made of all [[materials]] function identically, although doors made of more valuable material will increase the "value" of a [[room]] it is used in. High-[[quality]] doors give a happy [[thought]] to any [[dwarf]] seeing them, especially when a door is part of a room that the dwarf personally owns.{{verify}} Items made of a material a dwarf has a [[preference]] for will give an even happier thought.

Doors, when closed, will prevent the passage of fluid ([[water]] and [[magma]]). However, if a dwarf opens the door, the fluid will come spilling through.

== Door settings ==

There are three options one can specify on a door from the {{K|q}} menu:
* {{K|l}} Forbid/Permit Passage
** A door set to Forbidden is impassable to everyone in the game. A door cannot be set Forbidden if the door is open. Invading thieves may lock-pick and bypass a Forbidden door.
* {{K|o}} Keep Tightly Closed/Make Pet-Passable
** A door that is pet-passable allows through traffic of pets. A pet can still pass through a door that is tightly closed if it does so while it is being held open by an object or dwarf. This also affect the door's permeability to wild animals - a tightly closed door is a good way to keep wild animals from blundering into your fort.
* {{K|s}} Set as Internal/External
** A door set to external functions as a [[wall]] when defining boundaries of a room such as a [[bedroom]]. A door set to internal allows the room boundaries to pour over.

== "Building" doors ==

After constructing a door at any of the above workshops, they must be "{{K|b}}uilt" (placed) like all other furniture. Doors can now be placed on any open square adjacent to a wall. Locked doors and [[statue]]s do not count as walls for door-building purposes anymore. For the same result of the statue-door-move statue trick in previous versions to build an infinite line of doors, instead use a constructed wall segment. Doors will not "fall down" when the constructed wall is removed. They will, however, fall down if a non-constructed wall they are attached to is mined out and they have no other support.

== Door construction ==

A door built will not create a floor above it the way a wall will. If construction is to be done above a door, walls, fortifications and floors can be built on top of doors. Doors cannot be built on top of other doors – there must be a floor. Stairs and ramps, of course, cannot be built on top of doors either.

== Door strength ==

Trolls and most megabeasts can destroy doors. All doors. There is no exception. Run. 
(Conversely, ''any'' door is completely invulnerable to anything that isn't a building destroyer. Therefore, a glass portal can stop an Elite Hammergoblin.)

==Doors ajar==
Sometimes [[dwarves]] will leave items in [[door]]s, propping them open. Having a door open when it should be closed can lead to all sorts of disasters with [[water]], [[magma]] and hostile [[creatures]].

To remove an item from a doorway designate a [[garbage dump]] (preferrably nearby) and then loo{{k|k}} at the item and mark it for {{k|d}}umping. A dwarf with the [[refuse]] hauling labour enabled will come along and shift it.

If you don't want to designate the item for dumping (or can't, if it's owned by an individual dwarf) you can clear the area by dismantling the door and rebuilding it. Dwarves always clear the area when they build things. Select the door with {{k|q}} and then press {{k|x}} to order the door dismantled. Reconstruct the door in the same way as building a new one.

{{Buildings FAQ}}{{buildings}}
[[Category:Furniture]]

40d:Exploit

2008-11-14T17:20:19Z

Macdjord: /* The Castle of Ice in the Lake of Fire */ - once again less 'viceral', but more acurate

An '''exploit''' is a quirk of a game that allows players to gain what other players may consider an unfair advantage, usually by making use of a feature that is not working properly or which defies logic. 'Exploiting the game' is distinct from '[[cheating]]' because exploits occur game as written and do not need any external [[utilities]] or [[modding]]. Whether a player chooses to make use of an exploit or not depends on their personal taste; given that [[Dwarf Fortress]] is a single-player game, the user alone can decide what liberties to take and what options to shun.

Some exploits are listed below.

== Self-powered pumps ==

It is possible to produce a perpetual motion water pump where the act of pumping actually powers itself! See [[screw pump]] and [[water wheel]] for details.

== Atom Smasher ==

A [[drawbridge]], when rapidly triggered on and off, can be used to obliterate any creature or item beneath it. Nothing short of a [[demon]] or [[megabeast]] is capable of withstanding a drawbridge crush.

== Trap fields ==

Laying a field of [[trap]]s with a significant-enough depth can protect your fortress from all invaders with no need to maintain a [[military]]. Traps are somehow intelligent enough to distinguish between [[pet]]s and allies while being dangerous to enemies and wild animals.

Many players do not consider this an exploit.

== Get back to work! ==

When a dwarf is "On Break", it is possible to draft this civilian into the military and then undraft the civilian in order to get him to cancel the break. This does give an unhappy [[thought]] (but only if the dwarf has no military and/or civilian skills), so it is not a significant exploit and some may consider it a perfectly acceptable gameplay method.

== Quantum stockpiles ==

By designating a garbage pit [[zone]] instead of a [[stockpile]], you may store an infinite number of objects in a single tile by dumping them, then reclaiming them when you want to use them.

A similar effect may be achieved by building a wall two tiles in front of a catapult and digging a channel between the wall and catapult. By firing the catapult at the wall, the stone falls into the trench. The stone will pile up in the channel, putting it out of sight and out of mind. Not only does this train [[siege operator]]s, but it clears the stone that your legendary [[miner]]s leave.

== Cooking alcohol ==

[[Alcohol]] can be cooked without requiring many other ingredients, producing solid food that is eaten and not imbibed. Doing so is a highly efficient means of producing food, as each plant produces five units of alcohol.

Though undeniably an exploit, many people make use of this feature. It will eventually be plugged with [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_req_101-150.html Req129]:
<blockquote>Req129, IMPROVE COOKING, (Future): More food. Food should require a substrate, rather than just being seeds etc. Seeds, syrups, drinks and other such objects can contribute to the likes/dislike checks as they do now, but they shouldn't add to the number created. A good roll could lead to the recipe being given a name and saved to the entity definition, where it can then be encountered in other cities in subsequent games.</blockquote>

==Bling Bolts==

Adding a [[decoration]] to a stack of [[bolt]]s causes a huge [[value]] increase. The value of the decoration is multiplied by the number of bolts in the stack. This is considered a [[bug]].

==Bookkeeper Exercise Program==

Changing your [[bookkeeper]]'s settings to maximum accuracy causes him to work furiously in his office, training quickly up to [[legendary]].

==Nudist Fortress==

Dwarves get a bad [[thought]] from having [[clothing]] [[wear]] out, but nothing happens if they can't find replacement clothes. As long as you don't make new clothes, they will happily go naked. This also avoids the problem of messy dwarves leaving clothing strewn around the fortress.

==Recycling Archery Range==

In an [[archery range]], [[bolt]]s that hit the target are are always destroyed, but bolts that miss can be saved. Build a [[channel]] between the [[archery target]] and the back wall of the range, and [[stairs]] to get into it. Amazingly, the bolts will no longer shatter on impact with the wall, but fall intact into the channel. Reclaim the bolts, and your dwarves will re-use them for target practice. This exploit has the unfortunate side effect of splitting up [[stack]]s of bolts, so your dwarves will make a separate trip for each individual bolt.

This trick will work for a [[ballista]] as well. Be careful for friendly fire.

==Merchant Swindles==

There are a variety of ways to cheat [[merchant]]s out of their cargo without seizing it. Tearing down the [[trade depot]] while the merchants are there is the easiest way.

Also, marking items for [[dump]]ing, using view creature mode ({{key|v}}), the stocks menu ({{key|z}}), or items in room mode ({{key|t}}), lets you relieve merchants of their goods. Just reclaim the items from your garbage dump [[zone]] later. You can even take clothing and equipment off merchant and guards this way.

The merchants will still leave disappointed if they have less value in goods when they leave the map than when they entered {{verify}}.

== The Castle of Ice in the Lake of Fire ==

[[Construction]]s are indestructible, regardless of material, and walls of wood and ice easily stand up to [[magma]]. Entire fortresses can be built of ice in temperate climates equally impervious to catapults, the summer sun, or a thousand tons of boiling lava.

On a similar note, all buildings and furniture are equally strong - indestructible to most creatures, nothing at all to others. Witness a single troll bashing through a multilayered set of [[adamantine]] and [[steel]] doors, while an army of Hammergoblins are stymied by a glass [[portal]].

40d:Exploit

2008-11-13T22:03:58Z

Macdjord:

An '''exploit''' is a quirk of a game that allows players to gain what other players may consider an unfair advantage, usually by making use of a feature that is not working properly or which defies logic. 'Exploiting the game' is distinct from '[[cheating]]' because exploits occur game as written and do not need any external [[utilities]] or [[modding]]. Whether a player chooses to make use of an exploit or not depends on their personal taste; given that [[Dwarf Fortress]] is a single-player game, the user alone can decide what liberties to take and what options to shun.

Some exploits are listed below.

== Self-powered pumps ==

It is possible to produce a perpetual motion water pump where the act of pumping actually powers itself! See [[screw pump]] and [[water wheel]] for details.

== Atom Smasher ==

A [[drawbridge]], when rapidly triggered on and off, can be used to obliterate any creature or item beneath it. Nothing short of a [[demon]] or [[megabeast]] is capable of withstanding a drawbridge crush.

== Trap fields ==

Laying a field of [[trap]]s with a significant-enough depth can protect your fortress from all invaders with no need to maintain a [[military]]. Traps are somehow intelligent enough to distinguish between [[pet]]s and allies while being dangerous to enemies and wild animals.

Many players do not consider this an exploit.

== Get back to work! ==

When a dwarf is "On Break", it is possible to draft this civilian into the military and then undraft the civilian in order to get him to cancel the break. This does give an unhappy [[thought]] (but only if the dwarf has no military and/or civilian skills), so it is not a significant exploit and some may consider it a perfectly acceptable gameplay method.

== Quantum stockpiles ==

By designating a garbage pit [[zone]] instead of a [[stockpile]], you may store an infinite number of objects in a single tile by dumping them, then reclaiming them when you want to use them.

A similar effect may be achieved by building a wall two tiles in front of a catapult and digging a channel between the wall and catapult. By firing the catapult at the wall, the stone falls into the trench. The stone will pile up in the channel, putting it out of sight and out of mind. Not only does this train [[siege operator]]s, but it clears the stone that your legendary [[miner]]s leave.

== Cooking alcohol ==

[[Alcohol]] can be cooked without requiring many other ingredients, producing solid food that is eaten and not imbibed. Doing so is a highly efficient means of producing food, as each plant produces five units of alcohol.

Though undeniably an exploit, many people make use of this feature. It will eventually be plugged with [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_req_101-150.html Req129]:
<blockquote>Req129, IMPROVE COOKING, (Future): More food. Food should require a substrate, rather than just being seeds etc. Seeds, syrups, drinks and other such objects can contribute to the likes/dislike checks as they do now, but they shouldn't add to the number created. A good roll could lead to the recipe being given a name and saved to the entity definition, where it can then be encountered in other cities in subsequent games.</blockquote>

==Bling Bolts==

Adding a [[decoration]] to a stack of [[bolt]]s causes a huge [[value]] increase. The value of the decoration is multiplied by the number of bolts in the stack. This is considered a [[bug]].

==Bookkeeper Exercise Program==

Changing your [[bookkeeper]]'s settings to maximum accuracy causes him to work furiously in his office, training quickly up to [[legendary]].

==Nudist Fortress==

Dwarves get a bad [[thought]] from having [[clothing]] [[wear]] out, but nothing happens if they can't find replacement clothes. As long as you don't make new clothes, they will happily go naked. This also avoids the problem of messy dwarves leaving clothing strewn around the fortress.

==Recycling Archery Range==

In an [[archery range]], [[bolt]]s that hit the target are are always destroyed, but bolts that miss can be saved. Build a [[channel]] between the [[archery target]] and the back wall of the range, and [[stairs]] to get into it. Amazingly, the bolts will no longer shatter on impact with the wall, but fall intact into the channel. Reclaim the bolts, and your dwarves will re-use them for target practice. This exploit has the unfortunate side effect of splitting up [[stack]]s of bolts, so your dwarves will make a separate trip for each individual bolt.

This trick will work for a [[ballista]] as well. Be careful for friendly fire.

==Merchant Swindles==

There are a variety of ways to cheat [[merchant]]s out of their cargo without seizing it. Tearing down the [[trade depot]] while the merchants are there is the easiest way.

Also, marking items for [[dump]]ing, using view creature mode ({{key|v}}), the stocks menu ({{key|z}}), or items in room mode ({{key|t}}), lets you relieve merchants of their goods. Just reclaim the items from your garbage dump [[zone]] later. You can even take clothing and equipment off merchant and guards this way.

The merchants will still leave disappointed if they have less value in goods when they leave the map than when they entered {{verify}}.

== The Castle of Ice in the Lake of Fire ==

[[Construction]]s are indestructible, regardless of material, and walls of wood and ice easily stand up to [[magma]]. Entire fortresses can be built of ice in temperate climates equally impervious to catapults, the summer sun, or a thousand tons of boiling lava.

On a similar note, all buildings and furniture are equally strong - indestructible to most creatures, nothing at all to others. Witness a single troll bashing through a multilayered set of adamantine and steel doors, while an army of Hammergoblins are stymied by a glass portal.

40d Talk:Lever

2008-11-12T21:04:21Z

Macdjord: /* Inverting a Lever */ Uncertainty of method

== floodgates vs. doors misinformation? ==
"''Therefore, it is more logical to use doors, at least until doors aren't usable for holding back water.''"

I'm fairly certain that doors can't be closed while flooded. They work as described for opening via lever, but cannot close when blocked by water or creatures.
Granted, the last time i've levered doors was back in 2d. Please verify or change the wording? --[[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 15:49, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

:In the current version{{version|0.27.176.38c}} doors can close if water currently occupies the same square. I believe elsewhere the wiki states this destroys the water, but I have not verified if the water is destroyed. --[[User:Quartic|quartic]] 16:18, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
::Does it matter how much water? -- [[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 13:35, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
:::I have verified this with water of depth 1 and 7, but not values in between.--[[User:Quartic|quartic]] 13:38, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Todo: Check whether two levers connected to the same door operate it in the same way the older versions did - that is, pulling each lever once would open the door, then do nothing as the second lever is pulled. -- [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 19:23, 7 November 2007 (EST)

I'm using vertical bars as portcullis for my keep, and they attach to levers. Perhaps a comment that bars and grates operate identically in this version, specifically with respect to levers? -Gotthard

Doesn't the delay come from the floodgate grinding to close the water/magma channel/tunnel compared to a door slamming shut right away? --[[User:Karpatius|Karp]] 08:51, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
:That is what it is meant to simulate. Like people mentioned above, though, Toady's said that doors shouldn't work as well as floodgates, so in some later version your doors will probably leak. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 10:09, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

== controlling at a distance ==

Does the lever need to be adjacent to the item it is controlling?

I want to put a floodgate at the end of a channel... [[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 02:52, 23 January 2008 (EST)
:No, it can be anywhere.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 02:57, 23 January 2008 (EST)

so, analog to the support-cave-in-trap how about building a nice water basin, say 4x4 for a start and covering it with grates, all connected to a lever - do grates have to be attached to a wall or floor on one side? I will try *broad grin* --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:45, 22 February 2008 (EST)

:Grates must be attached to a wall on one side, although you can put grates next to only grates and the dwarves will build them. Followed by their collapse. Like walls off bridges.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 18:31, 2 March 2008 (EST)

:Try building supports under them. SL's hand of armok uses supports under hatches in a similar way. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:37, 2 March 2008 (EST)

::Yeah, its not working like i wanted it too. The support thing will probably work. Or I will just leave a few walls in the basin..will try that later, busy right now. *watches goblin fly away in high arc* --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 19:52, 3 March 2008 (EST)

Regarding remote activation/control: I just spent 10 minutes berating my dwarves for completely ignoring two Pull Lever commands while vile forces of darkness approached, only to find that once I removed the Dwarves Stay Indoors restriction, they happily stepped up to the, uh, lever. The bridges are outside, the levers are on the level below. Has anyone else experienced this? [[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 17:49, 22 March 2008 (EST)

:Was the lever and/or any part of the path to the lever marked as "outside"? Use {{k|k}} to check. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 10:25, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::I checked and one of the levers was indeed marked "outside". In fact, there are several squares on my first underground level that are marked "outside". Is that because they are in the general area of the stairway leading outside? Thank you for the info. --[[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 18:42, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

:::When I quit reading all new forum messages and stayed at the wiki, I thought this would stop. [[Outside|Read The Wiki]]. Really. Read it. No, really, click on that link. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 19:57, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

== Megabeasts ==

I have noticed that a bridge that a hydra is standing on cannot be retracted {{version|0.27.176.38c}}. Has anyone else had similar experiences? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:15, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Titans cause the same problem. I conjecture that bridged can't be retracted while megabeasts are standing on them. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:08, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Also elephants, it seems. Possibly creature size. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:18, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Dragons cause the same problem. Are megabeasts supposed to all show up at once like this? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

== Proposed addition: Mechanism sequence ==

Given the problems that arise when using non magma-safe materials for mechanisms on floodgates, it is quite handy to know which mechanisms go where at the link selection (When for example you're really low on bauxite). 
From my experimentation with floodgate-lever, the first mechanism selected goes at the gate and the second one at the lever. I still haven't activated the contraption, but I'm assuming it's going to be ok. 
I'm also assuming the same is usefull for grates and bars. --[[User:Nonickch]], unsigned

:There is some lower-down text that tells you which mechanism goes in where. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 08:30, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

== Finding Links ==

Is it possible to determine what a lever is linked to without pulling it and checking to see what happens? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 00:43, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
:AFAIK the only way is to attempt to link the lever to a built object and notice which one if any is not available.
:eg if you have two bridges but only one is available to be linked to, it is because you are already linked to the other one.
:This would be a really good feature if it was implemented.
:[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 09:55, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

:I guess this is one good use for the new note-feature: Just use the same note for lever and target. --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 10:17, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

== Max number of links? ==

''Is there a limit to the amount of objects that can be linked to a lever?''--[[User:Thendash|Thendash]] 22:56, 19 September 2008 (EDT)

== Speeding the job of linking ==

Is it just me or does it not only take forever to finish the job of linking the lever to something, but also the dwarves treat it as extremely low priority? I've sometimes had to had an entire year for one of them to deign to hook it up. Incidentally, it is the Mechanics job that they use for that, right? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 15:48, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: I haven't noticed anything about the priority of the job, but yes, it take hella long to finish it. Some big linking job (eg. linking a large bridge to a remote lever) are virtually impossible to complete without an experienced mecanic... dwarves don't manage to end the job before feeling the urge to eat or drink or something, and all their work is lost when they return, ending in an infinite loop. [[User:Timst|Timst]] 19:47, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: Unless it's changed in the year since I've played, the mechanic must move the mechanisms to the lever and the "something", then spend time working on both the lever and the "something", all without being interrupted. Consider a 1-square stockpile next to both the lever and the something and choosing those unique mechanisms when you assign the linkage job. -- [[User:Qwip|Qwip]] 16:42, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

:: The catch, so far, is figuring out the "unique" mechanisms in the list. Short of making sure that that stockpile is the only one that carries Schist Mechanisms or something similar... Unlike the other "pick an item" lists, you can't specify a sort and there's nothing zooming you to the item that you will use. On a mildly unrelated note, I realized that part of the reason for my delay was that I was building large amounts of stone traps, so the nearest mechanism that was not already tied up in a trap building job was quote some distance away. I had this problem with the nearby stockpile as well, as it was also fairly close to the traps. It would be nice to even get a distance count on the mechanisms. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 11:48, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::When you choose the mechanism for the lever or trap, it does tell you its distance.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 12:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::: Addendum to Maximus's comment: When selecting the material to be used, you can e{{k|x}}pand the list of materials, and then select a particular item. Therefore, you can build a single-tile stockpile, then customize it (using {{k|q}} then {{k|s}}settings) to only allow a certain quality mechanism. Link the lever after these stockpiles have been filled. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 16:21, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

== Inverting a Lever ==

I think I found a way to automatically invert the signal of a lever, say if you wanted one lever to open one door and close another. It involves a bridge and water, so it would not be instant. I haven't tested it yet. Anyone know if it would work?
<pre>Side view: (Sorry, I realize this isn't the standard tileset, but my text editor doesn't have them all.)
#####
#_~@W
##D##

W - Water source (Under at least 7/7 pressure)
D - Water drain
_ - Pressure plate, set to activate under water of depth 4-7
@ - Hinge of a raisable bridge, connected to the main lever (offscreen)
~ - Bridge over channel
# - Solid rock</pre>
When the main lever is OFF, the bridge is down. It allows water to flow past its hinge, and it covers the drain. Water fills the room, triggering the plate, which sends an ON signal. 
When the main lever is ON, the bridge raises. The hinge blocks water from flowing in, and the uncovered drain empties the room. The plate detriggers, sending OFF. 
WARNING: The drain must not fill! If it does, you wont be able to get into the room to connect more mechanisms to the plate.
Option: If your water source is infinite, make your drain a hallway, at least 3 long, with a raising bridge that comes down from the far end. When the main lever is activated, the hallway floods. Shortly afterwards, the plate detriggers. After a short delay, the bridge slams down, destroying the water. 
--17:52, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

: Isn't it simpler to build two levers? Especially considering the pressure plate takes as many mechanisms? I don't really understand what you are trying to accomplish here.
:--[[User:MagicGuigz|MagicGuigz]] 17:34, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

::If you want a single action to do some "on" actions and some "off" actions - e.g. if from a stylistic point of view you want to have a single "activate outer defenses" lever that raises bridges over moats and puts down bridges blocking catapults.
::--[[User:Random832|Random832]] 19:35, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

::: It's more than stylistic. My designs are complex systems, created on the assumption that only certain combinations of states are possible - that when ''this'' bridge is down, ''that'' bridge is always up, and that when ''this'' floodgate is open, ''that'' door is always closed. If I allow things to enter a condition I hadn't planned for - either because I forgot to throw both leavers, or the dwarf died between them, or whatever - there is literally no telling what would happen. It could drop civilians into a line of fire, or flood the fortress, or expose the marksdwarves to the enemy without also releasing their infantry guards.
:::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 16:08, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:I'd say you should consult the [[Computing]] and [[Mechanical Logic]] pages then. Should find all the components you need there.
:--[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 16:13, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::Doesn't help. That's all about power transfer - gears, axels, waterwheels... It only uses levers for input, not output - I could connect my controll leaver to a not-gate like [[Mechanical_Logic#NOT_or_BUFFER|this one]], but how do i connect ''that'' to a bridge?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:17, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::Connect that power to a screw pump, that pours water onto a pressure plate. There's an example of such a device on the mechanics page. Take a look as Water/Fluid logic as well (Linked to on the mechanical page) for some other pump-based devices.
:::--[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 06:56, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

:::It's... ''workable'', I suppose. It's much more complex than the bridge system. It might be faster responding, depending on the speed at which a pump works, since there is no 100 step delay like a bridge. It would take a lot more room and mechanisms, not to mention a seperate power source for each one. Remember, each leaver you invert need its own, independent setup.
::::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:09, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

:::: Check out this page, it might help.. www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/User:SL/Logic_Gates.
::::[[User:Martinuzz|Martinuzz]] 8:54, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

: So the goal here is to have water on a pressure plate when a lever is set to ON. Don't hatch covers respond quicker than bridges?

<pre>
Side view:

####
#^HW
##D#

^ = Pressure Plate
W - Water Inlet
D - Drain
H - Hatch Cover
# - Solid rock
</pre>
:Main lever linked to Hatch Cover (H). When the lever is OFF, the hatch is closed and the Pressure Plate (^) chamber fills. When the lever is ON, the Hatch Cover (H) disappears and water drains away before reaching the pressure plate ledge.
:[[User:Wangcommander|Wangcommander]] 01:27, 12 November 2008 (EST)

:: But since you're not actually blocking off the water, you are dependent on the fickleness of the water pressure simulation. Sure, the room would never fill with an open hatch between the water source and the hatch, but after the first use it ''starts off'' filled. Are you certain it will drain? If the water comes in from the source as fast as it goes out the drain, will it not stay full? That's the advantage of using the bridge - it is the only piece of equipment that blocks water in the ON position.
:: A hybrid design might be useful, using a bridge to block the input bu a hatch to control the output. When you switch it, the hatch instantly starts draining the water, then the bridge seals the inlet 100 ticks later to guarantee a complete drain.
:: --[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 16:04, 12 November 2008 (EST)

40d Talk:Engraver

2008-10-29T21:28:32Z

Macdjord: /* Strange mood? How? */*shudders*

"This may not be desirable since a number of other valuable skills that are harder to train. In such cases, consider [[pump operator|pump operating]] an alternative."

what are you trying to tell us? --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:44, 26 February 2008 (EST)

:Full paragraph quote:
::However, if engraving is a dwarf's highest skill, it is likely that if that dwarf enters and completes a [[strange mood]], then the dwarf will reach legendary status in engraving. This may not be desirable since a number of other valuable skills that are harder to train. In such cases, consider [[pump operator|pump operating]] an alternative.
:Makes perfect sense to me. "This" refers to conclusion of the previous sentance. Your moody engravers become legendary engravers (which im not sure is accurate for most recent vers; bears testing). So less engravers = less wasted moods. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:15, 27 February 2008 (EST)

::What's so bad about legenday engraver? Really helps kill those sadness streaks dwarves get when friends die -

::Quoted from the forums:
:::Dwarf 1:woe is me, my best friend the military champion died and he's gone and rotted away in the air :(
:::Dwarf 2:Hey did you see that new legendary dining room with all the masterpiece engravings and exceptional aluminium chairs and tables?
:::Dwarf 1:Hey was I sad before oh well I'm happy now :D

::--[[User:Frostedfire|Frostedfire]] 07:06, 27 February 2008 (EST)

:::The thing about engravers is that for the most part they advance in skill quickly on their own, unless you have very little stone or ice in your fortress. So getting a legendary engraver through a strange mood is a bit of a waste, considering there are some skills that are harder and more time consuming to train (like glassmaking and metalsmithing skills).
[[User:Bouchart|Bouchart]] 13:58, 27 February 2008 (EST)

:: Read again, ''carefully''. Among other things, the grammar is mangled. I can only guess the intended meaning: If you have spare dwarves, let them pump, not engrave, cos a legendary pump operator is more valuable. But the intention of the writer is not clear. Also: why pump operator? You don't necessarily have a setup where you can pump away without undesired consequences. And who uses manual pumping anyway with the beautiful and efficient machinery available? --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 17:07, 27 February 2008 (EST)
:::The grammar is fine. There's a bit of a style issue with the long sentence. I really don't see what's confusing about it. It advocates using pump operating instead of engraving to raise dwarf stats because a moods can't buff the pump operating skill. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 17:22, 27 February 2008 (EST)

This may not be desirable since '''there is''' a number of other valuable skills that are harder to train.

This may not be desirable since a number of other valuable skills <s>that are</s> is harder to train.

Now, IANANS, but i did sleep this time ;).

Sorry to nitpick but grammar aside there were just to many details implied but not mentioned. How about the current reword?--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 17:48, 27 February 2008 (EST)

==Legendary clerk/bookkeeper==
I can verify this would never happen from a strange mood. On the other verify, has anyone witnessed an Engraver become anything else than a Legendary engraver after a strange mood?

== Recursive ==

I just had a dwarf carve an masterpiece image of herself carving a masterpiece image. Narcissism?
: Worse - Recursion. --[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 14:32, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

== Strange mood? How? ==
How can an engraver enter a strange mood? What workshop does he take over? Does he demand a smoothed, undamaged section of wall designated for engraving? 
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 14:21, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
: He enters a strange mood by adding a blinking exclamation mark to himself. He takes over a mason's shop or a craftsdwarf shop, or some other shop if he had a good skill in it. He demands the same random barrage of stuff anybody else requires, sometimes with the base material related to the shop he's in. No, he does not demand a smooth section of wall, but you can bet there'll be an image of himself recursively engraving that selfsame image on it. --[[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 23:44, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
: Mine have consistently taken over a Mason's Workshop. And yes, they do a bit of masonry and get Legendary engraving. It doesn't make sense, but there it is. This may change with The Toady One's planned change to engraving to allow gemstones to be incorporated for detail work (thereby allowing one to gather materials for an artifact). -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 16:04, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
: Addendum - According to the [[Strange mood]] article, like Miners, they sometimes take over a Craftsdwarf workshop instead and create a stone craft instead of furniture. I would guess that it's because Miners and Engravers are of the "stone type" that they get these two options. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 16:08, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
:: That's silly. Why is 'engraver' a strange-moodable skill when it can't produce an artifact engraving?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:13, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
::: *shrug* More to the point, why is Mining a strange-moodable skill? Dwarves are weird and twisted little creatures. Engraving actually makes more sense to me because it could potentially become an artifact-capable skill with the current dev plans. Mining... who's going to pull together 2 feather tree logs, an uncut sapphire, a turtle shell, and titan bones to carve out a hunk of rock? However, while engraving has plans to add materials (The Toady One has teased us with text along the lines of "This is an engraving of a demon and a dwarf engaging in unnatural acts. The demon's eyes and the dwarf's blood shines with the red of inlaid ruby."), I could see it still not being included because part of artifacts is the idea that they can be moved to where they are most handy. I could just see an engraver deciding to carve his masterpiece on the wall of one of the Peasant Haulers. Cue in years of Nobles kvetching about the lower class having better rooms than them. Then again, that kind of sounds like fun...
:::-[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 16:52, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
::::I shudder at the thought of dealing with such a room once dwarven economy kicked in. Too small to contain the things a noble or legend demands, too expensive for anyone else.
::::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:28, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Engraver

2008-10-29T17:13:41Z

Macdjord: /* Strange mood? How? */ Seems silly...

40d Talk:Site finder

2008-10-28T19:00:02Z

Macdjord: No: 'Not all' or 'None at all'?

== Multiple Results? ==
Given that the search covers the entire map, is there a way to see all of the results instead of only one? Also, is the result the first one found, the "best" one, or the closest one to the cursor's location at search time? —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 23:40, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

:It's probably the first one found. I haven't seen a difference based on cursor location - a search with all features n/a from the top left and from bottom right gave same result. There isn't a way to see all results. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:30, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

== Area searched ==

The statement in the main article that the site finder will only take into account current latitude/longitude is incorrect. The bug isn't that crisp. Generally, it'll prefer sites from the quadrant or so nearest your cursor, rather than sites on the far side of the map. I generally find that four searches, one in each quadrant, will find whatever sites on the map best correspond with the criteria I'm seeking.

The best way to find different locations is to move the cursor AND change an arbitrary setting you don't care much about, like swapping "bottomless pit" for "chasm."
:I have done a few searches and there were two indicators that it really only uses one latitude: I only got results on the latitude the cursor was on initially and the finder counts up to one extent of the map (129 for as 129x129 map). I tested again today and indeed it is wrong - the finder searches the whole map, it seems. I'll correct my edit.

== Bauxite ==

I wish Bauxite was an option. What I need in a site is Water+Magma+Flux+Bauxite, but since I can't require the last one and can't scan through multiple suggestions, this doesn't help much.
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:01, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
:Try asking on the forums. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 16:27, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
:Or mod bauxite to be more common. --[[User:Heron|Heron]] 16:50, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

::If it's just magma-safe mechanisms you're after, you can bring some raw bauxite when you design your party (be sure to keep masons/stonecrafters away from it, however). You can make magma-safe floodgates and other objects out of nickel/iron/platinum/what heave you. You can also order bauxite from the dwarven caravan once the liaison shows up.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 11:51, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

:::I know, I just ''hate'' being dependent on imports for a critical material.--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 12:39, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
::::I almost never have bauxite as an option to import. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 12:48, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

== No: 'Not all' or 'None at all'? ==

When you select 'no' for, say aquifer, does is search for a site that has ''no'' aquifer tiles, or a site with at least one non-aquifer tile? 
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:00, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Engraver

2008-10-28T18:21:14Z

Macdjord: How can an Engraver enter a strange mood?

40d Talk:Trading

2008-10-17T17:29:04Z

Macdjord: /* Inaccessible Depot */

== Consolidation of Trading, Trade Depot, Caravans, and Wagon ==

This needs wikification with some amounts of rewriting. I will give it a go. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 06:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Yea thanks, this is my first try at a wiki-page. sorry if it was crappy... --[[User:CombatWombat|CombatWombat]] 06:42, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Nah, there's no such thing as a crappy wiki edit, when its got content in it. Just remember to be bold, otherwise there would be nothing here. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 07:29, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Well this thread's a little old, but I re-wrote and consolidated some more information on this page. There was also some discussion of this on [[Talk:Caravan#Merge_this_into_Trading]]. If you don't approve, please don't just revert it, I organized and cleaned up a lot of the scattered info, so at the very least it should be split from where it is now on the Trading page to where it should ultimately go. --[[User:Marble Dice|Marble Dice]] 02:48, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

This article needs to be seperated. We dont find crafting and the craftdwarf workshop in the same article and the same goes here too. Trading is how to trade and what it means in this game. Trade depot is a construct. An encyclopedia defines things and as such we should define them seperately. It all needs to be organized as well. The flow chart is undefined and in the wrong section, etc.
Ill move some stuff around and work to clean some up now but nothing to radical at the moment... what do you think?
[[User:Iluziat|Iluziat]] 07:03, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

== Extraction from different articles ==

All the information on trading seems quite scattered now (Trade depot, Caravan, Dwarf, Elf, Human etc), and as most stuff is well written I think we should merge the trade sections to this one page and leave behind only refecences. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 08:29, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:Looking good, is there a 'your first caravan'-type tutorial anywhere we could link to? Something with advice on the sort of goods to prepare and what to buy for the first winter, with new players in mind. I'll try and find one somewhere. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, linked to the trade section in the new player guide. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::Done++ Someone else finish merging the information from Caravans into the page. Make sure to get that awesome Elf trader image. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 12:10, 28 January 2008 (EST)

== Haulers? ==
In my experience the "bring item to depot" tasks were performed by any dwarf, even without any hauling labors enabled. Can also be my imagination. I cannot check it for now, so, anyone, please verify.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:That's correct, as many times my pure crafters will stop crafting to haul goods to the depot, despite having only one or two production labors enabled. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:41, 28 January 2008 (EST)
::Is this similar to plant gathering where even non-working nobles and children will do it, or is it limted to any regular dwarf regardless of labour? --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 19:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:::Yes, nobles and children will haul stuff to the depot. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== Moving goods on afterwards ==

To get things ''out'' of the depot.... do I have to order them removed while the caravan is still around?
I have starving dwarves... and food going rotten in the depot![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)
:AFAIK, no. in my experience, anything bought is treated as like it's just lying there, not being traded.
Well, yes and no. Once trading is finished dwarves will start bringing the bought goods in while the caravan still is there. But you cant 'order' them to per se ;) Your own stuff that wasnt sold however will remain in depot till the caravan leaves. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 18:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Unless you go back into the {{k|g}}oods menu at the Depot and unmark them for trading. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 04:25, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I've a question in the same vein: I just traded for a truckload of goods, but the traders didn't even leave them in the depot! They just carried my goods out with them. Were my dwarves supposed to carry all of the goods back earlier? --[[User:Gh3yz0r|Gh3yz0r]] 14:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)

==Duplicate Page?==
The page "Caravan" has very similar information, though this "trading" page seems more complete.[Samyotix]

== culling on mandates ==

what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)
:I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)

== "everything is ruined now" ==
I just accidentally tried to trade the elves a wooden bin full of stone goods. Now ALL my stone goods, including ones not actually in that bin, are unacceptable. I ended up just seizing the rope I needed, but I'd like to know if this is a glitch, or if I just made them too angry to trade. —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shadow archmagi|Shadow archmagi]] ([[User talk:Shadow archmagi|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Shadow archmagi|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}
:It's not a glitch. Elves refuse to trade at all after you give them even a single wood or animal product. After you do that the trade option is locked until they come back to trade next year. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:52, 27 February 2008 (EST)
:The wooden bin told the elves you hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate animals. Don't trade dead trees or dead animal parts to elves. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 13:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

==Depot Access==
Not a single square on my map is accessible by the caravan. What should i do? --[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

EDIT: My bad. It seems that it shows every square as inaccessible if the depot is not fully constructed--[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading Margins ==
In regards to this submission:
"If you have a somewhat experienced broker or you already raised the traiders mood to pleased or above you can usually trade with marginal profit for them and you can also safely ignore their counteroffers, offering the same trade a second time, successfully."

You do realize that when they make a counteroffer they automatically add those counteroffer goods to the pot, right? Just making sure. Are you saying you go back through and remove each item their counteroffer added to your side of the deal? Seems much simpler to just stick to the ~50% rule of thumb, especially at the beginning with low skills and again once you reach the point of having so many trade goods that you can easily buy everything you need from each caravan with plenty of goods left over. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 14:55, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
: Yes, exactly. Whenever i get a counteroffer I remove all items from the list they added until their profit is back to what i deem fit, sometimes leaving a low value item, say, 50☼, they chose, if I wanted to trade it anyway. Since this is not a beginners guide page, I think it's wrong to advise people to a 50% profit margin that is much higher than necessary. Once the traders are happy, they will even agree to trading an anvil for an anvil. I tested this extensively because usually i want them to leave early and thus try to make them angry. Almost impossible. We could however add smth about the (suspected) advantages of having high export totals like bigger caravans, more immigrants, arrival of king. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 06:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
::The 50% rule of thumb is a good starting point either way. "Advanced" page or not, before I posted that, there was no guidance on what profit margin the visiting traders would generally accept, so that people were left to find out the hard way.
::Going back through a long list of your trade goods to hunt down and remove the items which the visiting trader added to the offer seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, unless you just have very few trade goods or a really tight budget at your fortress.
::As for being able to get away with lower margins once the trader is happy, that is definitely useful knowledge and could be expanded upon. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 12:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

There is no way to refuse a counter-offer, is there? The only option is to hit {{k|Enter}}, and the "goods are added to the pot" as you say ... correct? --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 09:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

:Correct, however, you're free to simply remove the additionally requested items and re-offer. In the case of a new trader in his first few trade sessions, this will likely work, as he gained experience (probably a LOT) just by offering. Even if it doesn't, as long as you don't repeat it many times (4+ I'd say) then there's no real risk of driving them off. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:16, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

::I find it easiest to commence one dwarf with novice valuer that way you already know prices... within the first trading I can usually get some items at straight trade (0% profit) maybe it depends on civilisation demands.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:14, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:::If you want a trade to succeed just make sure the trader gets 100-1000* profit. Almost every trade I made with this method was accepted. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:09, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

== Goblins butchering my caravans. ==

Every time I trade with the caravans, a goblin ambush comes and the merchants are all killed. Ive taken new measures to prevent this, but will merchants come back to trade? and what effect does their death have? —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wafl|Wafl]] ([[User talk:Wafl|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Wafl|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}

My caravans get shot up by goblins all the time. Then you get to loot their stuff. The caravans always seem to come back next year. [[User:Ripheus|Ripheus]] 22:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading flowchart ==

Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)

Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right
{|cellpadding="2" border="1"
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2| Make or obtain goods to trade || Build Depot ({{K|b}} - {{K|D}})
|-
| Ensure Depot is accessible ({{K|D}})
Check green area reaches edge of map
|-
| colspan=3 | Wait until a caravan arrives on the map
"A--- caravan from --- has arrived."
|-
| Set goods to be traded ({{K|q}} - {{K|g}}) || Request a trader ({{K|q}} - {{K|r}}) || Wait for caravan to reach the depot
"Merchants have arrived and are unloading their goods"
|-
| Wait for goods to be hauled || Wait for the trader to finish their other tasks and go to the depot || Wait for the rest of the caravan to reach the depot and be unloaded
|-
| colspan=3 | Begin actual trading ({{K|q}} - {{K|t}})
|}

Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... [[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]]

:Ask and ye shall receive
{|cellspacing=0 align=center
|-
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Arrive at fortress location
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Create Goods
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Build Depot
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Check Depot is accessible
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Set goods to be traded
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan to arrive at depot and merchants to finish unloading
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for goods to be hauled
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Request the trader at the depot and turn off his other labours
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Trade
|}
You'll note I shifted the location of requesting trader --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
:The above was the first draft. You can access the current version at [[Trading/Flowchart]]. Anyway, what I wanted to say was '''Re: Adeptable's changes'''
:I don't think the third branch is neccesary. For one, it makes it seem too wide, and secondary it implies that turning off the trader's labours ''all the time'' means that trading will happen faster - almost as if it will make merchants arrive more often. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 23:36, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

== Offerings ==

Can anyone expound on the function of {{K|o}}ffering goods as gifts to traders? I tried giving the elves about 1000 worth of tchotchkes, and the next year they showed up with more goods than I've ever seen -- lots of caged animals, whereas I usually get very few, and so on. However, other times I gave them more and it seemed nothing changed. [[User:Anydwarf|Anydwarf]] 12:01, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Gifts to the traders (and large trading profits) should increase the number of traders / wagons you get the following year, so they'll bring more stuff to trade. AFAIK no-one knows about the numbers for sure though. [[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Add hint: "Buy everything ... in case you get a strange mood"? ==

Personally I've found it very useful to do this:

When traders arrive,
a) optionally check stocks.
b) Buy everything you can't make or harvest in your own fort.
c) In the diplomat meeting, order everything you can't make or harvest.

To be specific: Thread, Silk, cloth, metal bars (anything else?).

The reason:
a) Dwarves sometimes demand items out of some metal or alloy they like.
b) Dwarves who are possessed or get a strange mood will sometimes demand silk or cloth.

Players who proactively (harr!) seek to stock materials for possible moods will IMO have much less of a problem with dwarves going insane from moods. However I couldn't figure out where (or if) I should insert that, so I'll just add this idea (adding a hint: buy everything you don't have) to the discussion.

Also, as far as I know, possessed/moody dwarves in the current version (27.176.38c) do not demand specific items. Rather, they want a) any metal bar b) any metal ore c) Silk d) Cloth e) wood f) raw gem g) any stone ... that was it, right?. So probably such a hint could read something like:

"NOTE: If your fortress cannot harvest silk, it would be useful to order some from the caravans. If you do not have a cloth industry yet, maybe order some cloth as well. Having a small stock of materials which you are not actively using in your economy - e.g. GCS silk - will increase the likelihood of your fortress gaining an artifact from any mood or possession."
[[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Clear the perimeter? ==

Is clearing the entire perimeter of the map really necessary? While my depot has been accessible at all, the caravan has '''always''' appeared at a point with access to the depot. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
:What the article says is:
:#Caravans enter the map from a random direction which does not coincide with the relative direction of the originating civilization,
:#they may appear from different directions or z-levels each year
:#they cannot use stairs
:#they may leave without trading if it takes too long to reach the trade depot
:With the above points in mind:
:#In order to guarantee perfect, permanent wagon accessibility, a three tile path must be cleared around the entire perimeter of the map, with at least one joining path from the border to the trade depot. Any parts of this path system which have grass must be paved with floor tiles, bridges, or roads to prevent trees from growing. Ramps must be used to adjust z-level elevation.

I have certainly had a depot accessible to the southern border, then had the human merchants only turn up with mules because they were approaching from a different direction.

The recommendations are how to ensure the human wagons turn up every summer (it also helps to remember to have your drawbridge down as soon as summer commences!) If you are not so concerned about human merchants then ignore the advice. If you don't have enough dwarf-power then ignore the advice. Some of it only needs to be done once (ie: adjusting slopes), and some of it just gives you more territory to consider for defending from invaders (being open to merchants also opens you to invaders).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:33, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

==Seizing goods==
"It is worth noting that in the Mac port (untested for other ports), you can simply remove the depot that the merchants are camped out on to recieve all their goods."

I can confirm that this also works in the PC version.[[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 14:07, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Empty caravans ==

human, elf, and dwarf caravans bringing me nothing.
is it possible to have a depot too full? --[[User:Eerr|Eerr]] 07:30, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:In recent versions of the game I've noticed that traders, after their initial visit, will only bring what was mentioned in your previous trade agreement with them. In earlier versions they'd bring all sorts of tat along too. Did you perhaps not request any goods for import? I don't imagine this could affect the Elves as well though. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 08:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

::Prior to the latest group of releases, I'd been getting empty caravans for a LONG time, Elves and Humans alike, and occasionally even the Dwarves. Hasn't happened to me in the e release yet though (hadn't spent too much time on the other releases). --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:13, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

== starvation ==

it must be because they brought food to my starving settlement
(dwarves will run out and get food straight from the caravan)

== Added a small bit. ==

I quickly changed the section about the possible exploit of deleting a trade depot from Mac-only-bug to an across the board phenomenon.

== Caravan at Inaccessible Depot ==

I assume it is related to the 3 wide path only showing as 1 green square, but the caravan has stopped at a trade depot that is listed as inaccessible. Does this mean that some trade depots will show bad with SHIFT-D but are actually okay? --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 21:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

:The three-wide path showing only one green square is, to my knowledge, correct. That green is the center of the path, along which the center of the wagon must align with to fit within the three-wide path. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 23:14, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

::Thanks. It'd be nice then if the Shift-D showed that as a caravan accessible depot then. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 01:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Correction: It does, there was a boulder in the way that I did not see. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 22:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

== 50% profit rule ==

This really, REALLY needs to be made clearer in the game. There's nothing wrong with the trader telling us how much profit he'd expect from our goods! I've got tens of thousands worth of goods that I haven't sold for two years straight because the bloody traders wouldn't tell me how much they want, and I didn't find the 50% rule buried in this article until just now! --[[User:Theory|Theory]] 09:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:It's hardly 'buried' in the article, it's certainly not a rule, and it is made pretty clear in the game. I'm not just trying to be contrary; let me explain: A skilled broker can routinely trade with only a thirty or twenty percent profit, even down to ten percent if the merchant is in a good mood. If the merchant wants more profit, he will either put forth a counter-offer or say "With your trade goods such as they are, I can't possibly imagine you getting all of those items." This seems like a pretty clear indication that he wants a bigger margin. As to its place in the article: a full half of the section titled "Trading" details the fifty percent suggestion. If you think it deserves increased prominence, I encourage you to edit it yourself. Them's my six cents. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 17:16, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:: afaik, traders will accept ''any'' profit, as long as they're not annoyed and also as long as you're not trying to buy 'high-tech' items like steel anvils or bars, with 'low-tech' items such as poorly crafted pieces of stone, bone etc [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 17:58, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Elves and dead stuff==

it seems elves will make counter-offers for dead stuff, like totems, bone and shell crafts... needs to be fixed imo [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 18:00, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Adamantium in trade window==

I've just noticed that Adamantine strands appear in my trade window in purple text despite them not being present at the depot and marked for trade. I'm fairly sure that this is something to do with mandates from the nobles (my broker has forbade the export of adamantine) but I can't find any mention of this on the Wiki, any thoughts? [[User:Extar|Extar]] 21:55, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
I did a bit more testing and the purple text is clearly to do with export bans, I'll add it to the mandate page. [[User:Extar|Extar]] 22:02, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

==They are selling dead animals?!==

I don't know if this is because my fortress is in the freezing tundra, but all caravans offer me cages with dead, butcherable corpses inside. I don't complain about this: There's no additional charge for them, and so I get free meat, fat, skins and bones. Does this happen in other biomes, too? --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 09:43, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Carvan over ? ==
Can someone please help me, I need to know if caravans can travel over traps in the latest version, and also if the people will get caught in them and die, and could whoever tests this please do it with all types of traps, not just one. Thank you in advance. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 15:57, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
:They have no problems with stone traps, cage traps, or weapon traps in my experience. :) Until the King started requesting them before he'd show up, I didn't bother with roads. I just paved the way to the edge with traps. One catch is that creatures who fall unconscious (and maybe randomly some dogs) will get caught in the traps. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 19:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

== Inaccessible Depot ==
What happens if a caravan arrives and you have no accessible depot at all? Do they pass you by? Do they wait around offscreen to give you a chance to build or expose one? My depot is underground, accessible only by a drawbridged path. I'd prefer to keep the bridge up (which means ''no'' access, foot or wagon), until I need it, but I don't want to miss a caravan. 
Also, what happens if, after the traders enter the map, the depot they are heading to becomes inaccessible? I could put a sacrificial depot outside to draw them in, then seal it up after opening my secure depot.--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:43, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I don't have first-hand experience with this, but I would say the second option is your best bet.{{verify}} Plus, you could make the second depot bait for a monster trap somehow. Just be sure that the traders can't get to the bait-depot by the time they get near it, or they'll unload there, and you'll have to haul the additional distance. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 16:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I've had a few caravans show up before I get a Trade Depot going a few times, because I have a tendency to over-engineer and get sidetracked. The text claims they 'bypass your inaccessable site', but when in all the times I've done this, they hang around a while and if I quickly build a Trade Depot, they'll happily come over and trade with me as though nothing ever happened. 
::While I can't be certain if a caravan will behave the exact same way if the depot is inaccessible instead of nonexistent, I'd be willing to bet that's the case. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 16:53, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I seem to remember that it's only the wagons that bypass you; traders using mules or other animals will stick around for a while, giving you a chance to build a depot.

::As for a "sacrificial" depot, I suspect that'll give them pathing freakouts, and they won't switch course to the "real" depot once the fake one is disassembled. I had a depot with a very narrow and twisty path once (there just happened to be one from the edge of the map), but when a large caravan with lots of wagons showed up, two of them got stuck in a dead end or something and never made it to the depot. They only let you trade once everyone's arrived, so the entire caravan left without trading anything.

::One thing you could try is keeping locked doors behind your depot to keep dwarves from going through it. When the traders show up, unlock the doors so you can do business; when the siegers show up, raise the bridge.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 18:32, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::I already plan to keep it locked off from the fortress when not in use. The thing is, if anything goes wrong with my stockpiles, things end up being left in the depot between traders. If it's accessable at all times, I'm liable to see thieves raiding it.
:::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:29, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

== Locking them In ==
What happens if you trap traders in the depot area and they want to leave? Does it count as attaching them? If the goblins show up, I have to to seal the bridges, whether the traders are gone or not. 
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:23, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
:As long as the traders don't go insane from you delaying them, you're most likely fine. That said, it'd probably behoove you to let them out regardless of the danger. If they have guards, the guards will go to town on the goblins. If they don't, they get slaughtered and you can claim everything they were holding, guilt-free.
:--[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:39, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
::''Emotioal'' guilt or ''political'' guilt? Doesn't a vanished caravan damage political relations even if I didn't kill them?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:42, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
:::I was referring to political guilt. It's possible that it does, but I have never noticed an ill effect, even though I've had about a half-dozen caravans meet their untimely end going to or from my fortresses. So if it does, it's minor, and a lot less inflammatory than doing it yourself.
:::--[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:44, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Hmm... If you attack a caravan and slaughter them all, leaving none to report what happened, does that count as 'vanishing mysteriously'? After all, there's no-one to say you did it.
::::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:00, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Magma

2008-10-17T17:20:15Z

Macdjord: /* Mechanisms on Non-Floodgates */

Are you certain that steel is a requirement for metals in contact with magma? This info conflicts with the [[Magma smelter]] article, which state that using [[Fire-safe materials]] is enough. Don't have a fort with magma yet, but could someone check which one is correct?[[User:Thexor|Thexor]] 19:23, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
:If i disable temperature can my dwarfs swim through the magma unharmed? Will it still cause water to steam? [[User:Diabl0658|Diabl0658]] 22:28, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

Does the type of rock around the mountainous areas hint at magma? If you check out [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_rocks#Naming this article] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igneous_rock#Mineralogical_classification this site] list a bunch of common volcanic rocks: Granite, Rhyolite, Diorite, Andesite, Gabbro, Basalt, Peridotite and Komatite. Perhaps some clues as to where to find magma?
:It may be possible to find magma vents by searching for extrusive igneous rocks (such as basalt, felsite, rhyolite and andesite), but continental shelves and deep earth are just naturally made of intrusive igneous rock (such as granite, diorite and gabbro). It's generally indicative of rock that has been pushed up to the surface (or erosion has withered the rock down), and not a volcano.
::So areas with surface igneous rocks such as basalt, felsite, rhyolite and andesite have a high chance of finding a source of magma below the surface? I'd like to know if it's entirely random or if there is some order or pattern to it. [[User:Schm0|Schm0]] 08:38, 5 November 2007 (EST)

On a completely different topic: I keep setting up on magma vents but not actually having a magma chamber visible. I assumed one problem was the lack of a border on my plot (so somehow the volcano was actually outside my plot), but even after making it bigger there was still no magma (...but it did have a fancy cave)...This has happened the last 4 times I've tried to start on a volcano, and the world regenerating takes quite a while for ~10 named volcanoes, and then all of the livable ones don't actually have magma.--[[User:UltimaGecko|UltimaGecko]] 16:50, 3 November 2007 (EDT)
:You might try using reveal.exe to see if the volcano is underground. I just built on a site with a volcano which was not visible from the surface, and used reveal to make sure I hadn't lost my mind (then I killed DF and restarted it so I wouldn't still have the map revealed) - The volcano was entirely underground, covered by layer(s) of rock. I've also added a note to the article saying that it is possible to find a volcano which is visible on the starting screen but not from the surface on-site.--[[User:SL|SL]] 21:54, 7 November 2007 (EST)
::I think this is related to the temperature of the area. I've got a map with a magma vent in the middle of a glacier. There was no surface magma, but there was a nice flat, round patch of obsidian surrounded by ice. After digging down three levels through this "cap", I hit live magma. It's actually a nice setup, as I've basically set up a small fort *in* the cap--basically my dwarves are living in the mouth of the volcano, with the basement level dedicated to magma smelters, forges, glass furnaces, etc. --[[User:RedKing|RedKing]] 04:26, 9 November 2007 (EST)

== Magmapool/pipe section ==
Zara, you recently added some info about all magma pipes having cliffs over them -- this is incorrect. I've played a very large number of magma pipe maps, and very often they are completely exposed to the air. I've also removed the line about them being "as small as two z-levels!", because it needs better phrasing. I may fix it later. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 22:39, 26 February 2008 (EST)

:in the meantime I had figured that out, too. But what is the difference between a magma pipe and a volcano, then? {{unsigned|Zara}}

::As far as I know, the distinction comes down to whether it reaches the surface. If so, some would then call it a volcano rather than a magma pipe. I believe that magma pipes which reach the surface (or volcanoes, if you will) are the only ones which actually show up on the embark map, while underground magma pipes and magma pools do not (unless you use the Regional Prospector tool). --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 23:07, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:::No, similar to Moonanibe,I've played on several maps where, on the embark screen, the magma pipe was only visible using regional prospector. However, as soon as I took a look at the place, I found the magma partly (or completely) exposed on the surface. [[User:Zara|Zara]] 01:59, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

== Added new section ==
I added a section regarding "Built objects vs. Magma". I think it's absolutely vital we establish what does and doesn't melt in magma, in a clean list. There are quite a few things that could be added to that list (Constructed floors for one) so please, do add to it. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 17:31, 18 February 2008 (EST)
:Have you tested the bridges? I conjecture that all buildings and constructions without mechanisms are perfectly fine with magma contact. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 10:37, 19 February 2008 (EST)
:: The bridges part was cut from another section of the article and moved in there. Since it was already here, I assumed it was accurate. I haven't actually checked myself. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 16:54, 19 February 2008 (EST)
:I will verify bridges one way or the other. I'm pretty sure they cant melt, though. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:03, 19 February 2008 (EST)
::they dont melt, as they arent actually within the magma. that was copied over from the 2d wiki and nobody removed it -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 22:29, 19 February 2008 (EST)
::: I noticed you removed the line about bridges. It seems silly not to mention them at all, so I've written up a line about them working no matter what the material and stuck it in. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 23:12, 19 February 2008 (EST)
::::yea they should definately be mentioned, wasnt thinking when i removed it completely(recovering from a bad cold and brain is still a bit foggy) -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 00:49, 20 February 2008 (EST)
Tested. Non-magmaiproof bridges -over- magma are fine. Non-magma-proof submerged in magma will melt. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:39, 21 February 2008 (EST)
: Interesting. I'll edit the article to say as much. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 15:30, 21 February 2008 (EST)
This is what I've found: ANY Construction is safe from magma (even wooden ones. Walls, stairs, fortifications, etc). Any building is unaffected by magma if the magma doesn't occupy the same tile as the building. Example: a door is safe if it's closed, even if it's made of non-safe rock or wood. If you lock it open with a mechanism, or if it's jammed, then the magma interacts with the components, burning/melting them if they can't stand the heat. A pump made of wood or any other material is also safe, as long as the magma doesn't flow *over* it. Since the "out" side acts as a wall, if it's correctly isolated from the magma it won't get damaged and will pump the magma without any trouble. --[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 01:41, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Anyone clear on Vertical Bars in magma? I am attempting to keep imps and such from moving through my magma feeding tunnel and was curious if anyone had any good solutions to this problem. --[[User:Stalinbulldog|Stalinbulldog]] 16:23, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

:I just use a bauxite wall grate, it works fine for me. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 01:02, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
:: Ah, thank you, I just wanted to be sure they didn't melt regardless --[[User:Stalinbulldog|Stalinbulldog]] 02:32, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 
I made a few tests with magma and buildings/constructions and I can confirm some known results and I can provide a few new aspects. Constructions (b->C) are magma safe (walls, floors, stairs, others not tested). No matter what the material is.
*<s>bridges build with bauxite *rocks* are not magma safe (bauxite mechanism or not)</s>
*bridges build with bauxite *blocks* are magma safe (test with mechanism is pending)
*bridges build with steel bars are magma safe (test with mechanism is pending)
Open test: bridge with blocks considered as not magma safe.
 [[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:14, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
::I'm sorry, I made a mistake. The bridges build with bauxite rocks were previously connected with a lever. Unfortunately the mechanism is not removed from the bridge when you remove the lever. Well, at least it seems that the rules for magma safe materials are valid for bridges. With one exception: raised bridges can contain any mechanism, only when magma flows over the bridge it is destroyed.--[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 13:18, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Replenishing Magma ==

Since magma replenishes now, I've rewritten that snippet from the article. If I've missed something(a kind of magma not regenerating, though this always worked for me on several maps), feel free to correct things. --[[User:Romantic Warrior|Romantic Warrior]] 15:47, 18 February 2008 (EST).

I have a very good feeling that the replenishing magma is just "pressurized" magma. I haven't tested fully, but i have poured water over a magma pipe and re-mined it, and in that case the magma flow was upwards. --[[User:Sphexx|Sphexx]] 03:49, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

== Temperature ==

Does magma increase the temperature of things around it? Can it be used to melt ice? --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 20:26, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

:I'm not sure how the temperature calculations are done, but I CAN tell you that magma will melt nearby ice. Check out http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-153-meltingwateronglacier to see it in action. [[User:Zaranthan|Zaranthan]] 15:23, 26 January 2008 (EST)

::It should be a flow, just like the magma itself. One of the other visible results is warm stone. The same can probably be said for water and damp stone as well. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 17:01, 26 January 2008 (EST)

==Flow?==

I have a magma pipe (pit) in my current fortress... I breached the pipe from the lowest level because of the diagonal bug when I discovered it, and it filled some long exploratory shafts. Since then, the top magma layer is down to 5/7 and 6/7 running all over the surface. After a little while, it's easy to see that magma act curiously: instead of bouncing from wall to wall like real water physics, in my game the 5/7 (the flow) seems to all move in the same direction at the same time. The direction change often, and seem to change randomly. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 22:43, 26 November 2007 (EST)

There is another way to stop a flow of magma that's moving through a tunnel. You can go one z-level higher, dig to a spot above the magma-filled tunnel, then build a channel above where the magma is flowing and assign it as a Pond Zone. So long as you have buckets and a viable Water Source zone, a dwarf will come along and drop water on the magma, instantly turning it into obsidian and blocking the tunnel. --[[User:Stromko]] January 6th, 2007
: I've tried this - it rarely works. Usually you just destroy 1/7 of the magma per bucket, along with the water from the bucket, and nothing turns to obsidian. You need to hit it with larger quantities of water at once to get reliable results. --[[User:SL|SL]] 10:35, 6 January 2008 (EST)
::Actually, you have to hit it from two levels up. Just one won't do anything.--[[User:Demosthenes|Demosthenes]] 17:07, 18 February 2008 (EST)

I have added a section to the main page on magma flow, based on frequent confusion in the forums, and on some investigations I have been making into the behavior of magma when pumped (I'm not the first to discover this behavior, but I did go to a fair degree of effort to test how it behaves in differing circumstances) --[[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]] 21:16, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
:Now THAT is how you make a diagram! Awesome. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 22:20, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

==Criteria for Magma Buildings==

Is there a special condition that must be met before Magma Smelters/Forges/Furnaces and so on will appear on the build menus? I have a magma pit and some channels over it so that I can access it for magma, but I cannot build any magma-using buildings. - [[User:Confused Rat|Confused Rat]]

:Magma furnaces and forges need a hole somewhere on the ground where they are built. This is to allow the furnace/forge to take the heat from the magma as they are used. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 19:43, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:What he means is that the magma furnaces don't even appear in the build menu. This is because you haven't discovered magma through natural means. The only way this can happen is if you used reveal to find the magma. You'll have to use the [[Utilities#Enable_Magma_Buildings|Enable Magma Buildings]] utility to make them appear. --[[User:Valdemar|Valdemar]] 20:03, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:Reclaimed fortresses may be bugged. If you reclaimed you fortress you probably can't do anything with it without 3rd party programs (like one mentioned above). Magma in [[pit]]s isn't enough to allow magma buildings. You need to discover true magma pipe and get pop-up informing about this. --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 08:37, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

== Infinity Generators? ==

Because magma is currently a finite resource, would it be a good idea to add how to make an infinity generator as workarround untill Toady gives us some more of the stuff?—Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Highlord Asehujiko|Highlord Asehujiko]] ([[User talk:Highlord Asehujiko|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Highlord Asehujiko|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}
:Not on the main article as it would easily be considered cheating. In here, or the [[cheating]] article itself would be fine, the latter probably more appropriate as it could be applied to water as well for those scorching maps. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 19:16, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::Magma regenerates in most cases, which pretty much means it's infinite. --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 19:19, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

== Lava vs. Magma ==

I hadn't noticed it until just now, but both Lava and Magma occur in the game. I haven't seen this fact referenced in the wiki. Magma is a fluid which occurs in Magma Pipes, and in areas directly connected to Magma Pipes. Lava appears to occur in disconnected areas. I'm not sure what happens if you reconnect. If you use {{k|k}} to view a square, you'll see either Magma or Lava depths given. I'm not clear on what difference there is between the two fluids. --[[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 02:58, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

:There is none, just the name. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 10:30, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::both in df, and irl, molten rock in open air is called lava, while subterranean is called magma -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 15:40, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::: Ah, so magma which is ''Outside'' is lava. Cool. I guess my disjoint areas are all also outside :) I suppose we ought to mention this somewhere on the page? --[[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 19:19, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

== Magma vs puppy? ==

I have encountered an interesting glitch. I have 2 puppies and a kitten in magma that aren't dying, and yes I have temperature setting on. http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-570-magmavspuppy

For those interested in trying to recreate it, I believe it has to do with designating the animal to slaughter while trying to throw it into a pit. A few of my dwarves were having pathing errors to try and slaughter them when I noticed the 3 invulnerable pests. After saving and reloading, the critters were insta-gibbed.
--[[User:Sphexx|Sphexx]] 04:59, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

== Chasm Confusion ==

"The minerals directly adjacent to the magma vent will also be immediately visible, even at the lowest level of the map, which can give some hints about where to prospect for ores."

Magma, at least in my experience, has always been surrounded only by Obsidian, as a result you cannot get any kind of insight as to the surrounding minerals, this differs from a chasm where the veins coming up to a chasm are directly reflected in the walls.

--[[User:Stalinbulldog|Stalinbulldog]] 04:18, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
:volcanoes and magmapipes can form large "chasms" above them, though it depends on how rocky the map is

== gruesome accident in reall really older 2d version ==

beware wooden floodgates
not only do they burn(as I planned)
but i scattered magma all around the room
it rolled around quickly in all directions, flooding the tunnels, burning miners, smelters, war dogs and puppies alike without remorse.
it has thus far filled the entire message screen with " someone" or "something" has burned to death
it appears to gain mass from creeping down hallways! oh god...
60 deaths, at least 25 dwarves and 15 puppies22:08, 28 July 2008 (EDT)[[User:Eerr|Eerr]]

== Magma cooling? ==

Ive noticed at a 1/7 depth, the magma seems to cool and go away. v40d --[[User:OmegaX|OmegaX]] 17:28, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

: That is probably what the author meant by "Magma that is only 1 deep "evaporates" over time." [[User:MagicGuigz|MagicGuigz]] 19:58, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

== Mechanisms on Non-Floodgates ==

I want to power my underground smelting operations with magma, so I'm digging a tunnel into the side of a magma pipe. I don't want magma creatures coming in that way, so I need a set of [[bars]] across it. However, once I set up the bars, I need to open them to get a miner past and cut the last bit of stone and open the tunnel to the magma. I was going to just attach the bars to a level, but the question of what to use for the [[mechanism]] is bugging me. I don't want to waste my precious imported [[Bauxite]] on the mechanism, and once it closes behind the miner it never need to open again so it's fine it it melts, but not if the melting mechanism will cause the bars to deconstruct! Anyone know what happens to things other than floodgates when their mechanisms get melted off?
--17:11, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

: Or you could make your life much simpler with [[Fortifications]]. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 23:09, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

:: How? [[Fortification|Fortifications]] allow liquid to pass through and stop creatures, yes, but you can't open them ''at all''. How am I supposed to get my dwarf back after he digs the last square of the channel if there's a fortification blocking the way?--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:49, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::I used a fortification to keep fire imps out of my magma channel; I dug a stairway totally unconnected to the rest of my fortress to a spot adjacent to the top layer of the magma pipe, then dug a tunnel from within the fortress to within one tile of the stairway. I fortified the tile that separated the two, then dug a channel (from outside) that let the magma flow against the "outside" face of the fortification. The magma flowed through the fortification and into the "inside" tunnel.

:::For good measure, in case I want to drain the inside tunnel at some point, I put an s-turn in the inside tunnel and situated a nickel/bauxite floodgate around the corner, out of sight of the fortification.

:::Viewed from above, basically it looks like this:

~============
~~=====..X...
~~=====.=====
~~=<#...=====
~~===========
~============

~ - Magma pipe
= - Unmined tile (wall)
. - Mined tile (channel)
< - Stairway
# - Fortification
X - Floodgate

:::The last step here is to remove the tile between the magma and the stairway by digging a channel from one z-level up.
:::--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 03:16, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Why do you need a stairway? Couldn't you have just put the fortification on the tile where you have the stairway now? I'm also not sure why you need a turn as opposed to having the floodgate directly in line; i.e. <div>{{qd|cols=7|~|`|╬|{{qd/ch{{!}}X{{!}}888|ccc}}|.|.|.}}</div>
::::[[User:Random832|Random832]] 08:55, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

::::Well, if I dug in from above, I could just use a non-retracting set of bars. Fortifications allow liquid to flow, but they slow it down. But I'm not digging at the top level of the pipe. I suppose I could just use a sacrificial non-magma-safe floodgate, set up the bars behind it, and then open it and let it melt.
::::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:20, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Lever

2008-10-17T17:09:15Z

Macdjord: /* Inverting a Lever */

== floodgates vs. doors misinformation? ==
"''Therefore, it is more logical to use doors, at least until doors aren't usable for holding back water.''"

I'm fairly certain that doors can't be closed while flooded. They work as described for opening via lever, but cannot close when blocked by water or creatures.
Granted, the last time i've levered doors was back in 2d. Please verify or change the wording? --[[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 15:49, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

:In the current version{{version|0.27.176.38c}} doors can close if water currently occupies the same square. I believe elsewhere the wiki states this destroys the water, but I have not verified if the water is destroyed. --[[User:Quartic|quartic]] 16:18, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
::Does it matter how much water? -- [[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 13:35, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
:::I have verified this with water of depth 1 and 7, but not values in between.--[[User:Quartic|quartic]] 13:38, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Todo: Check whether two levers connected to the same door operate it in the same way the older versions did - that is, pulling each lever once would open the door, then do nothing as the second lever is pulled. -- [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 19:23, 7 November 2007 (EST)

I'm using vertical bars as portcullis for my keep, and they attach to levers. Perhaps a comment that bars and grates operate identically in this version, specifically with respect to levers? -Gotthard

== controlling at a distance ==

Does the lever need to be adjacent to the item it is controlling?

I want to put a floodgate at the end of a channel... [[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 02:52, 23 January 2008 (EST)
:No, it can be anywhere.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 02:57, 23 January 2008 (EST)

so, analog to the support-cave-in-trap how about building a nice water basin, say 4x4 for a start and covering it with grates, all connected to a lever - do grates have to be attached to a wall or floor on one side? I will try *broad grin* --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:45, 22 February 2008 (EST)

:Grates must be attached to a wall on one side, although you can put grates next to only grates and the dwarves will build them. Followed by their collapse. Like walls off bridges.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 18:31, 2 March 2008 (EST)

:Try building supports under them. SL's hand of armok uses supports under hatches in a similar way. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:37, 2 March 2008 (EST)

::Yeah, its not working like i wanted it too. The support thing will probably work. Or I will just leave a few walls in the basin..will try that later, busy right now. *watches goblin fly away in high arc* --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 19:52, 3 March 2008 (EST)

Regarding remote activation/control: I just spent 10 minutes berating my dwarves for completely ignoring two Pull Lever commands while vile forces of darkness approached, only to find that once I removed the Dwarves Stay Indoors restriction, they happily stepped up to the, uh, lever. The bridges are outside, the levers are on the level below. Has anyone else experienced this? [[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 17:49, 22 March 2008 (EST)

:Was the lever and/or any part of the path to the lever marked as "outside"? Use {{k|k}} to check. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 10:25, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::I checked and one of the levers was indeed marked "outside". In fact, there are several squares on my first underground level that are marked "outside". Is that because they are in the general area of the stairway leading outside? Thank you for the info. --[[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 18:42, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

:::When I quit reading all new forum messages and stayed at the wiki, I thought this would stop. [[Outside|Read The Wiki]]. Really. Read it. No, really, click on that link. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 19:57, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

== Megabeasts ==

I have noticed that a bridge that a hydra is standing on cannot be retracted {{version|0.27.176.38c}}. Has anyone else had similar experiences? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:15, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Titans cause the same problem. I conjecture that bridged can't be retracted while megabeasts are standing on them. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:08, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Also elephants, it seems. Possibly creature size. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:18, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Dragons cause the same problem. Are megabeasts supposed to all show up at once like this? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

== Proposed addition: Mechanism sequence ==

Given the problems that arise when using non magma-safe materials for mechanisms on floodgates, it is quite handy to know which mechanisms go where at the link selection (When for example you're really low on bauxite). 
From my experimentation with floodgate-lever, the first mechanism selected goes at the gate and the second one at the lever. I still haven't activated the contraption, but I'm assuming it's going to be ok. 
I'm also assuming the same is usefull for grates and bars. --[[User:Nonickch]], unsigned

:There is some lower-down text that tells you which mechanism goes in where. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 08:30, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

== Finding Links ==

Is it possible to determine what a lever is linked to without pulling it and checking to see what happens? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 00:43, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
:AFAIK the only way is to attempt to link the lever to a built object and notice which one if any is not available.
:eg if you have two bridges but only one is available to be linked to, it is because you are already linked to the other one.
:This would be a really good feature if it was implemented.
:[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 09:55, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

:I guess this is one good use for the new note-feature: Just use the same note for lever and target. --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 10:17, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

== Max number of links? ==

''Is there a limit to the amount of objects that can be linked to a lever?''--[[User:Thendash|Thendash]] 22:56, 19 September 2008 (EDT)

== Speeding the job of linking ==

Is it just me or does it not only take forever to finish the job of linking the lever to something, but also the dwarves treat it as extremely low priority? I've sometimes had to had an entire year for one of them to deign to hook it up. Incidentally, it is the Mechanics job that they use for that, right? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 15:48, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: I haven't noticed anything about the priority of the job, but yes, it take hella long to finish it. Some big linking job (eg. linking a large bridge to a remote lever) are virtually impossible to complete without an experienced mecanic... dwarves don't manage to end the job before feeling the urge to eat or drink or something, and all their work is lost when they return, ending in an infinite loop. [[User:Timst|Timst]] 19:47, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: Unless it's changed in the year since I've played, the mechanic must move the mechanisms to the lever and the "something", then spend time working on both the lever and the "something", all without being interrupted. Consider a 1-square stockpile next to both the lever and the something and choosing those unique mechanisms when you assign the linkage job. -- [[User:Qwip|Qwip]] 16:42, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

:: The catch, so far, is figuring out the "unique" mechanisms in the list. Short of making sure that that stockpile is the only one that carries Schist Mechanisms or something similar... Unlike the other "pick an item" lists, you can't specify a sort and there's nothing zooming you to the item that you will use. On a mildly unrelated note, I realized that part of the reason for my delay was that I was building large amounts of stone traps, so the nearest mechanism that was not already tied up in a trap building job was quote some distance away. I had this problem with the nearby stockpile as well, as it was also fairly close to the traps. It would be nice to even get a distance count on the mechanisms. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 11:48, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::When you choose the mechanism for the lever or trap, it does tell you its distance.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 12:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::: Addendum to Maximus's comment: When selecting the material to be used, you can e{{k|x}}pand the list of materials, and then select a particular item. Therefore, you can build a single-tile stockpile, then customize it (using {{k|q}} then {{k|s}}settings) to only allow a certain quality mechanism. Link the lever after these stockpiles have been filled. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 16:21, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

== Inverting a Lever ==

I think I found a way to automatically invert the signal of a lever, say if you wanted one lever to open one door and close another. It involves a bridge and water, so it would not be instant. I haven't tested it yet. Anyone know if it would work?
<pre>Side view: (Sorry, I realize this isn't the standard tileset, but my text editor doesn't have them all.)
#####
#_~@W
##D##

W - Water source (Under at least 7/7 pressure)
D - Water drain
_ - Pressure plate, set to activate under water of depth 4-7
@ - Hinge of a raisable bridge, connected to the main lever (offscreen)
~ - Bridge over channel
# - Solid rock</pre>
When the main lever is OFF, the bridge is down. It allows water to flow past its hinge, and it covers the drain. Water fills the room, triggering the plate, which sends an ON signal. 
When the main lever is ON, the bridge raises. The hinge blocks water from flowing in, and the uncovered drain empties the room. The plate detriggers, sending OFF. 
WARNING: The drain must not fill! If it does, you wont be able to get into the room to connect more mechanisms to the plate.
Option: If your water source is infinite, make your drain a hallway, at least 3 long, with a raising bridge that comes down from the far end. When the main lever is activated, the hallway floods. Shortly afterwards, the plate detriggers. After a short delay, the bridge slams down, destroying the water. 
--17:52, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

: Isn't it simpler to build two levers? Especially considering the pressure plate takes as many mechanisms? I don't really understand what you are trying to accomplish here.
:--[[User:MagicGuigz|MagicGuigz]] 17:34, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

::If you want a single action to do some "on" actions and some "off" actions - e.g. if from a stylistic point of view you want to have a single "activate outer defenses" lever that raises bridges over moats and puts down bridges blocking catapults.
::--[[User:Random832|Random832]] 19:35, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

::: It's more than stylistic. My designs are complex systems, created on the assumption that only certain combinations of states are possible - that when ''this'' bridge is down, ''that'' bridge is always up, and that when ''this'' floodgate is open, ''that'' door is always closed. If I allow things to enter a condition I hadn't planned for - either because I forgot to throw both leavers, or the dwarf died between them, or whatever - there is literally no telling what would happen. It could drop civilians into a line of fire, or flood the fortress, or expose the marksdwarves to the enemy without also releasing their infantry guards.
:::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 16:08, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:I'd say you should consult the [[Computing]] and [[Mechanical Logic]] pages then. Should find all the components you need there.
:--[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 16:13, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::Doesn't help. That's all about power transfer - gears, axels, waterwheels... It only uses levers for input, not output - I could connect my controll leaver to a not-gate like [[Mechanical_Logic#NOT_or_BUFFER|this one]], but how do i connect ''that'' to a bridge?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:17, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::Connect that power to a screw pump, that pours water onto a pressure plate. There's an example of such a device on the mechanics page. Take a look as Water/Fluid logic as well (Linked to on the mechanical page) for some other pump-based devices.
:::--[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 06:56, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

:::It's... ''workable'', I suppose. It's much more complex than the bridge system. It might be faster responding, depending on the speed at which a pump works, since there is no 100 step delay like a bridge. It would take a lot more room and mechanisms, not to mention a seperate power source for each one. Remember, each leaver you invert need its own, independent setup.
::::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:09, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Trading

2008-10-17T17:00:25Z

Macdjord: /* Locking them In */

== Consolidation of Trading, Trade Depot, Caravans, and Wagon ==

This needs wikification with some amounts of rewriting. I will give it a go. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 06:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Yea thanks, this is my first try at a wiki-page. sorry if it was crappy... --[[User:CombatWombat|CombatWombat]] 06:42, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Nah, there's no such thing as a crappy wiki edit, when its got content in it. Just remember to be bold, otherwise there would be nothing here. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 07:29, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Well this thread's a little old, but I re-wrote and consolidated some more information on this page. There was also some discussion of this on [[Talk:Caravan#Merge_this_into_Trading]]. If you don't approve, please don't just revert it, I organized and cleaned up a lot of the scattered info, so at the very least it should be split from where it is now on the Trading page to where it should ultimately go. --[[User:Marble Dice|Marble Dice]] 02:48, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

This article needs to be seperated. We dont find crafting and the craftdwarf workshop in the same article and the same goes here too. Trading is how to trade and what it means in this game. Trade depot is a construct. An encyclopedia defines things and as such we should define them seperately. It all needs to be organized as well. The flow chart is undefined and in the wrong section, etc.
Ill move some stuff around and work to clean some up now but nothing to radical at the moment... what do you think?
[[User:Iluziat|Iluziat]] 07:03, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

== Extraction from different articles ==

All the information on trading seems quite scattered now (Trade depot, Caravan, Dwarf, Elf, Human etc), and as most stuff is well written I think we should merge the trade sections to this one page and leave behind only refecences. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 08:29, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:Looking good, is there a 'your first caravan'-type tutorial anywhere we could link to? Something with advice on the sort of goods to prepare and what to buy for the first winter, with new players in mind. I'll try and find one somewhere. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, linked to the trade section in the new player guide. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::Done++ Someone else finish merging the information from Caravans into the page. Make sure to get that awesome Elf trader image. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 12:10, 28 January 2008 (EST)

== Haulers? ==
In my experience the "bring item to depot" tasks were performed by any dwarf, even without any hauling labors enabled. Can also be my imagination. I cannot check it for now, so, anyone, please verify.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:That's correct, as many times my pure crafters will stop crafting to haul goods to the depot, despite having only one or two production labors enabled. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:41, 28 January 2008 (EST)
::Is this similar to plant gathering where even non-working nobles and children will do it, or is it limted to any regular dwarf regardless of labour? --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 19:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:::Yes, nobles and children will haul stuff to the depot. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== Moving goods on afterwards ==

To get things ''out'' of the depot.... do I have to order them removed while the caravan is still around?
I have starving dwarves... and food going rotten in the depot![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)
:AFAIK, no. in my experience, anything bought is treated as like it's just lying there, not being traded.
Well, yes and no. Once trading is finished dwarves will start bringing the bought goods in while the caravan still is there. But you cant 'order' them to per se ;) Your own stuff that wasnt sold however will remain in depot till the caravan leaves. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 18:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Unless you go back into the {{k|g}}oods menu at the Depot and unmark them for trading. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 04:25, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I've a question in the same vein: I just traded for a truckload of goods, but the traders didn't even leave them in the depot! They just carried my goods out with them. Were my dwarves supposed to carry all of the goods back earlier? --[[User:Gh3yz0r|Gh3yz0r]] 14:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)

==Duplicate Page?==
The page "Caravan" has very similar information, though this "trading" page seems more complete.[Samyotix]

== culling on mandates ==

what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)
:I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)

== "everything is ruined now" ==
I just accidentally tried to trade the elves a wooden bin full of stone goods. Now ALL my stone goods, including ones not actually in that bin, are unacceptable. I ended up just seizing the rope I needed, but I'd like to know if this is a glitch, or if I just made them too angry to trade. —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shadow archmagi|Shadow archmagi]] ([[User talk:Shadow archmagi|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Shadow archmagi|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}
:It's not a glitch. Elves refuse to trade at all after you give them even a single wood or animal product. After you do that the trade option is locked until they come back to trade next year. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:52, 27 February 2008 (EST)
:The wooden bin told the elves you hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate animals. Don't trade dead trees or dead animal parts to elves. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 13:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

==Depot Access==
Not a single square on my map is accessible by the caravan. What should i do? --[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

EDIT: My bad. It seems that it shows every square as inaccessible if the depot is not fully constructed--[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading Margins ==
In regards to this submission:
"If you have a somewhat experienced broker or you already raised the traiders mood to pleased or above you can usually trade with marginal profit for them and you can also safely ignore their counteroffers, offering the same trade a second time, successfully."

You do realize that when they make a counteroffer they automatically add those counteroffer goods to the pot, right? Just making sure. Are you saying you go back through and remove each item their counteroffer added to your side of the deal? Seems much simpler to just stick to the ~50% rule of thumb, especially at the beginning with low skills and again once you reach the point of having so many trade goods that you can easily buy everything you need from each caravan with plenty of goods left over. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 14:55, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
: Yes, exactly. Whenever i get a counteroffer I remove all items from the list they added until their profit is back to what i deem fit, sometimes leaving a low value item, say, 50☼, they chose, if I wanted to trade it anyway. Since this is not a beginners guide page, I think it's wrong to advise people to a 50% profit margin that is much higher than necessary. Once the traders are happy, they will even agree to trading an anvil for an anvil. I tested this extensively because usually i want them to leave early and thus try to make them angry. Almost impossible. We could however add smth about the (suspected) advantages of having high export totals like bigger caravans, more immigrants, arrival of king. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 06:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
::The 50% rule of thumb is a good starting point either way. "Advanced" page or not, before I posted that, there was no guidance on what profit margin the visiting traders would generally accept, so that people were left to find out the hard way.
::Going back through a long list of your trade goods to hunt down and remove the items which the visiting trader added to the offer seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, unless you just have very few trade goods or a really tight budget at your fortress.
::As for being able to get away with lower margins once the trader is happy, that is definitely useful knowledge and could be expanded upon. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 12:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

There is no way to refuse a counter-offer, is there? The only option is to hit {{k|Enter}}, and the "goods are added to the pot" as you say ... correct? --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 09:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

:Correct, however, you're free to simply remove the additionally requested items and re-offer. In the case of a new trader in his first few trade sessions, this will likely work, as he gained experience (probably a LOT) just by offering. Even if it doesn't, as long as you don't repeat it many times (4+ I'd say) then there's no real risk of driving them off. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:16, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

::I find it easiest to commence one dwarf with novice valuer that way you already know prices... within the first trading I can usually get some items at straight trade (0% profit) maybe it depends on civilisation demands.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:14, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:::If you want a trade to succeed just make sure the trader gets 100-1000* profit. Almost every trade I made with this method was accepted. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:09, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

== Goblins butchering my caravans. ==

Every time I trade with the caravans, a goblin ambush comes and the merchants are all killed. Ive taken new measures to prevent this, but will merchants come back to trade? and what effect does their death have? —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wafl|Wafl]] ([[User talk:Wafl|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Wafl|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}

My caravans get shot up by goblins all the time. Then you get to loot their stuff. The caravans always seem to come back next year. [[User:Ripheus|Ripheus]] 22:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading flowchart ==

Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)

Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right
{|cellpadding="2" border="1"
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2| Make or obtain goods to trade || Build Depot ({{K|b}} - {{K|D}})
|-
| Ensure Depot is accessible ({{K|D}})
Check green area reaches edge of map
|-
| colspan=3 | Wait until a caravan arrives on the map
"A--- caravan from --- has arrived."
|-
| Set goods to be traded ({{K|q}} - {{K|g}}) || Request a trader ({{K|q}} - {{K|r}}) || Wait for caravan to reach the depot
"Merchants have arrived and are unloading their goods"
|-
| Wait for goods to be hauled || Wait for the trader to finish their other tasks and go to the depot || Wait for the rest of the caravan to reach the depot and be unloaded
|-
| colspan=3 | Begin actual trading ({{K|q}} - {{K|t}})
|}

Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... [[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]]

:Ask and ye shall receive
{|cellspacing=0 align=center
|-
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Arrive at fortress location
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Create Goods
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Build Depot
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Check Depot is accessible
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Set goods to be traded
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan to arrive at depot and merchants to finish unloading
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for goods to be hauled
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Request the trader at the depot and turn off his other labours
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Trade
|}
You'll note I shifted the location of requesting trader --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
:The above was the first draft. You can access the current version at [[Trading/Flowchart]]. Anyway, what I wanted to say was '''Re: Adeptable's changes'''
:I don't think the third branch is neccesary. For one, it makes it seem too wide, and secondary it implies that turning off the trader's labours ''all the time'' means that trading will happen faster - almost as if it will make merchants arrive more often. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 23:36, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

== Offerings ==

Can anyone expound on the function of {{K|o}}ffering goods as gifts to traders? I tried giving the elves about 1000 worth of tchotchkes, and the next year they showed up with more goods than I've ever seen -- lots of caged animals, whereas I usually get very few, and so on. However, other times I gave them more and it seemed nothing changed. [[User:Anydwarf|Anydwarf]] 12:01, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Gifts to the traders (and large trading profits) should increase the number of traders / wagons you get the following year, so they'll bring more stuff to trade. AFAIK no-one knows about the numbers for sure though. [[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Add hint: "Buy everything ... in case you get a strange mood"? ==

Personally I've found it very useful to do this:

When traders arrive,
a) optionally check stocks.
b) Buy everything you can't make or harvest in your own fort.
c) In the diplomat meeting, order everything you can't make or harvest.

To be specific: Thread, Silk, cloth, metal bars (anything else?).

The reason:
a) Dwarves sometimes demand items out of some metal or alloy they like.
b) Dwarves who are possessed or get a strange mood will sometimes demand silk or cloth.

Players who proactively (harr!) seek to stock materials for possible moods will IMO have much less of a problem with dwarves going insane from moods. However I couldn't figure out where (or if) I should insert that, so I'll just add this idea (adding a hint: buy everything you don't have) to the discussion.

Also, as far as I know, possessed/moody dwarves in the current version (27.176.38c) do not demand specific items. Rather, they want a) any metal bar b) any metal ore c) Silk d) Cloth e) wood f) raw gem g) any stone ... that was it, right?. So probably such a hint could read something like:

"NOTE: If your fortress cannot harvest silk, it would be useful to order some from the caravans. If you do not have a cloth industry yet, maybe order some cloth as well. Having a small stock of materials which you are not actively using in your economy - e.g. GCS silk - will increase the likelihood of your fortress gaining an artifact from any mood or possession."
[[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Clear the perimeter? ==

Is clearing the entire perimeter of the map really necessary? While my depot has been accessible at all, the caravan has '''always''' appeared at a point with access to the depot. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
:What the article says is:
:#Caravans enter the map from a random direction which does not coincide with the relative direction of the originating civilization,
:#they may appear from different directions or z-levels each year
:#they cannot use stairs
:#they may leave without trading if it takes too long to reach the trade depot
:With the above points in mind:
:#In order to guarantee perfect, permanent wagon accessibility, a three tile path must be cleared around the entire perimeter of the map, with at least one joining path from the border to the trade depot. Any parts of this path system which have grass must be paved with floor tiles, bridges, or roads to prevent trees from growing. Ramps must be used to adjust z-level elevation.

I have certainly had a depot accessible to the southern border, then had the human merchants only turn up with mules because they were approaching from a different direction.

The recommendations are how to ensure the human wagons turn up every summer (it also helps to remember to have your drawbridge down as soon as summer commences!) If you are not so concerned about human merchants then ignore the advice. If you don't have enough dwarf-power then ignore the advice. Some of it only needs to be done once (ie: adjusting slopes), and some of it just gives you more territory to consider for defending from invaders (being open to merchants also opens you to invaders).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:33, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

==Seizing goods==
"It is worth noting that in the Mac port (untested for other ports), you can simply remove the depot that the merchants are camped out on to recieve all their goods."

I can confirm that this also works in the PC version.[[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 14:07, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Empty caravans ==

human, elf, and dwarf caravans bringing me nothing.
is it possible to have a depot too full? --[[User:Eerr|Eerr]] 07:30, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:In recent versions of the game I've noticed that traders, after their initial visit, will only bring what was mentioned in your previous trade agreement with them. In earlier versions they'd bring all sorts of tat along too. Did you perhaps not request any goods for import? I don't imagine this could affect the Elves as well though. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 08:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

::Prior to the latest group of releases, I'd been getting empty caravans for a LONG time, Elves and Humans alike, and occasionally even the Dwarves. Hasn't happened to me in the e release yet though (hadn't spent too much time on the other releases). --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:13, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

== starvation ==

it must be because they brought food to my starving settlement
(dwarves will run out and get food straight from the caravan)

== Added a small bit. ==

I quickly changed the section about the possible exploit of deleting a trade depot from Mac-only-bug to an across the board phenomenon.

== Caravan at Inaccessible Depot ==

I assume it is related to the 3 wide path only showing as 1 green square, but the caravan has stopped at a trade depot that is listed as inaccessible. Does this mean that some trade depots will show bad with SHIFT-D but are actually okay? --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 21:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

:The three-wide path showing only one green square is, to my knowledge, correct. That green is the center of the path, along which the center of the wagon must align with to fit within the three-wide path. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 23:14, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

::Thanks. It'd be nice then if the Shift-D showed that as a caravan accessible depot then. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 01:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Correction: It does, there was a boulder in the way that I did not see. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 22:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

== 50% profit rule ==

This really, REALLY needs to be made clearer in the game. There's nothing wrong with the trader telling us how much profit he'd expect from our goods! I've got tens of thousands worth of goods that I haven't sold for two years straight because the bloody traders wouldn't tell me how much they want, and I didn't find the 50% rule buried in this article until just now! --[[User:Theory|Theory]] 09:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:It's hardly 'buried' in the article, it's certainly not a rule, and it is made pretty clear in the game. I'm not just trying to be contrary; let me explain: A skilled broker can routinely trade with only a thirty or twenty percent profit, even down to ten percent if the merchant is in a good mood. If the merchant wants more profit, he will either put forth a counter-offer or say "With your trade goods such as they are, I can't possibly imagine you getting all of those items." This seems like a pretty clear indication that he wants a bigger margin. As to its place in the article: a full half of the section titled "Trading" details the fifty percent suggestion. If you think it deserves increased prominence, I encourage you to edit it yourself. Them's my six cents. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 17:16, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:: afaik, traders will accept ''any'' profit, as long as they're not annoyed and also as long as you're not trying to buy 'high-tech' items like steel anvils or bars, with 'low-tech' items such as poorly crafted pieces of stone, bone etc [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 17:58, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Elves and dead stuff==

it seems elves will make counter-offers for dead stuff, like totems, bone and shell crafts... needs to be fixed imo [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 18:00, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Adamantium in trade window==

I've just noticed that Adamantine strands appear in my trade window in purple text despite them not being present at the depot and marked for trade. I'm fairly sure that this is something to do with mandates from the nobles (my broker has forbade the export of adamantine) but I can't find any mention of this on the Wiki, any thoughts? [[User:Extar|Extar]] 21:55, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
I did a bit more testing and the purple text is clearly to do with export bans, I'll add it to the mandate page. [[User:Extar|Extar]] 22:02, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

==They are selling dead animals?!==

I don't know if this is because my fortress is in the freezing tundra, but all caravans offer me cages with dead, butcherable corpses inside. I don't complain about this: There's no additional charge for them, and so I get free meat, fat, skins and bones. Does this happen in other biomes, too? --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 09:43, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Carvan over ? ==
Can someone please help me, I need to know if caravans can travel over traps in the latest version, and also if the people will get caught in them and die, and could whoever tests this please do it with all types of traps, not just one. Thank you in advance. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 15:57, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
:They have no problems with stone traps, cage traps, or weapon traps in my experience. :) Until the King started requesting them before he'd show up, I didn't bother with roads. I just paved the way to the edge with traps. One catch is that creatures who fall unconscious (and maybe randomly some dogs) will get caught in the traps. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 19:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

== Inaccessible Depot ==
What happens if a caravan arrives and you have no accessible depot at all? Do they pass you by? Do they wait around offscreen to give you a chance to build or expose one? My depot is underground, accessible only by a drawbridged path. I'd prefer to keep the bridge up (which means ''no'' access, foot or wagon), until I need it, but I don't want to miss a caravan. 
Also, what happens if, after the traders enter the map, the depot they are heading to becomes inaccessible? I could put a sacrificial depot outside to draw them in, then seal it up after opening my secure depot.--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:43, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I don't have first-hand experience with this, but I would say the second option is your best bet.{{verify}} Plus, you could make the second depot bait for a monster trap somehow. Just be sure that the traders can't get to the bait-depot by the time they get near it, or they'll unload there, and you'll have to haul the additional distance. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 16:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I've had a few caravans show up before I get a Trade Depot going a few times, because I have a tendency to over-engineer and get sidetracked. The text claims they 'bypass your inaccessable site', but when in all the times I've done this, they hang around a while and if I quickly build a Trade Depot, they'll happily come over and trade with me as though nothing ever happened. 
::While I can't be certain if a caravan will behave the exact same way if the depot is inaccessible instead of nonexistent, I'd be willing to bet that's the case. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 16:53, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I seem to remember that it's only the wagons that bypass you; traders using mules or other animals will stick around for a while, giving you a chance to build a depot.

::As for a "sacrificial" depot, I suspect that'll give them pathing freakouts, and they won't switch course to the "real" depot once the fake one is disassembled. I had a depot with a very narrow and twisty path once (there just happened to be one from the edge of the map), but when a large caravan with lots of wagons showed up, two of them got stuck in a dead end or something and never made it to the depot. They only let you trade once everyone's arrived, so the entire caravan left without trading anything.

::One thing you could try is keeping locked doors behind your depot to keep dwarves from going through it. When the traders show up, unlock the doors so you can do business; when the siegers show up, raise the bridge.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 18:32, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

== Locking them In ==
What happens if you trap traders in the depot area and they want to leave? Does it count as attaching them? If the goblins show up, I have to to seal the bridges, whether the traders are gone or not. 
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:23, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
:As long as the traders don't go insane from you delaying them, you're most likely fine. That said, it'd probably behoove you to let them out regardless of the danger. If they have guards, the guards will go to town on the goblins. If they don't, they get slaughtered and you can claim everything they were holding, guilt-free.
:--[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:39, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
::''Emotioal'' guilt or ''political'' guilt? Doesn't a vanished caravan damage political relations even if I didn't kill them?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:42, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
:::I was referring to political guilt. It's possible that it does, but I have never noticed an ill effect, even though I've had about a half-dozen caravans meet their untimely end going to or from my fortresses. So if it does, it's minor, and a lot less inflammatory than doing it yourself.
:::--[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:44, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Hmm... If you attack a caravan and slaughter them all, leaving none to report what happened, does that count as 'vanishing mysteriously'? After all, there's no-one to say you did it.
::::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 13:00, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Trading

2008-10-16T21:42:20Z

Macdjord: /* Locking them In */

== Consolidation of Trading, Trade Depot, Caravans, and Wagon ==

This needs wikification with some amounts of rewriting. I will give it a go. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 06:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Yea thanks, this is my first try at a wiki-page. sorry if it was crappy... --[[User:CombatWombat|CombatWombat]] 06:42, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Nah, there's no such thing as a crappy wiki edit, when its got content in it. Just remember to be bold, otherwise there would be nothing here. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 07:29, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Well this thread's a little old, but I re-wrote and consolidated some more information on this page. There was also some discussion of this on [[Talk:Caravan#Merge_this_into_Trading]]. If you don't approve, please don't just revert it, I organized and cleaned up a lot of the scattered info, so at the very least it should be split from where it is now on the Trading page to where it should ultimately go. --[[User:Marble Dice|Marble Dice]] 02:48, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

This article needs to be seperated. We dont find crafting and the craftdwarf workshop in the same article and the same goes here too. Trading is how to trade and what it means in this game. Trade depot is a construct. An encyclopedia defines things and as such we should define them seperately. It all needs to be organized as well. The flow chart is undefined and in the wrong section, etc.
Ill move some stuff around and work to clean some up now but nothing to radical at the moment... what do you think?
[[User:Iluziat|Iluziat]] 07:03, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

== Extraction from different articles ==

All the information on trading seems quite scattered now (Trade depot, Caravan, Dwarf, Elf, Human etc), and as most stuff is well written I think we should merge the trade sections to this one page and leave behind only refecences. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 08:29, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:Looking good, is there a 'your first caravan'-type tutorial anywhere we could link to? Something with advice on the sort of goods to prepare and what to buy for the first winter, with new players in mind. I'll try and find one somewhere. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, linked to the trade section in the new player guide. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::Done++ Someone else finish merging the information from Caravans into the page. Make sure to get that awesome Elf trader image. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 12:10, 28 January 2008 (EST)

== Haulers? ==
In my experience the "bring item to depot" tasks were performed by any dwarf, even without any hauling labors enabled. Can also be my imagination. I cannot check it for now, so, anyone, please verify.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:That's correct, as many times my pure crafters will stop crafting to haul goods to the depot, despite having only one or two production labors enabled. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:41, 28 January 2008 (EST)
::Is this similar to plant gathering where even non-working nobles and children will do it, or is it limted to any regular dwarf regardless of labour? --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 19:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:::Yes, nobles and children will haul stuff to the depot. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== Moving goods on afterwards ==

To get things ''out'' of the depot.... do I have to order them removed while the caravan is still around?
I have starving dwarves... and food going rotten in the depot![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)
:AFAIK, no. in my experience, anything bought is treated as like it's just lying there, not being traded.
Well, yes and no. Once trading is finished dwarves will start bringing the bought goods in while the caravan still is there. But you cant 'order' them to per se ;) Your own stuff that wasnt sold however will remain in depot till the caravan leaves. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 18:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Unless you go back into the {{k|g}}oods menu at the Depot and unmark them for trading. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 04:25, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I've a question in the same vein: I just traded for a truckload of goods, but the traders didn't even leave them in the depot! They just carried my goods out with them. Were my dwarves supposed to carry all of the goods back earlier? --[[User:Gh3yz0r|Gh3yz0r]] 14:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)

==Duplicate Page?==
The page "Caravan" has very similar information, though this "trading" page seems more complete.[Samyotix]

== culling on mandates ==

what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)
:I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)

== "everything is ruined now" ==
I just accidentally tried to trade the elves a wooden bin full of stone goods. Now ALL my stone goods, including ones not actually in that bin, are unacceptable. I ended up just seizing the rope I needed, but I'd like to know if this is a glitch, or if I just made them too angry to trade. —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shadow archmagi|Shadow archmagi]] ([[User talk:Shadow archmagi|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Shadow archmagi|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}
:It's not a glitch. Elves refuse to trade at all after you give them even a single wood or animal product. After you do that the trade option is locked until they come back to trade next year. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:52, 27 February 2008 (EST)
:The wooden bin told the elves you hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate animals. Don't trade dead trees or dead animal parts to elves. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 13:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

==Depot Access==
Not a single square on my map is accessible by the caravan. What should i do? --[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

EDIT: My bad. It seems that it shows every square as inaccessible if the depot is not fully constructed--[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading Margins ==
In regards to this submission:
"If you have a somewhat experienced broker or you already raised the traiders mood to pleased or above you can usually trade with marginal profit for them and you can also safely ignore their counteroffers, offering the same trade a second time, successfully."

You do realize that when they make a counteroffer they automatically add those counteroffer goods to the pot, right? Just making sure. Are you saying you go back through and remove each item their counteroffer added to your side of the deal? Seems much simpler to just stick to the ~50% rule of thumb, especially at the beginning with low skills and again once you reach the point of having so many trade goods that you can easily buy everything you need from each caravan with plenty of goods left over. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 14:55, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
: Yes, exactly. Whenever i get a counteroffer I remove all items from the list they added until their profit is back to what i deem fit, sometimes leaving a low value item, say, 50☼, they chose, if I wanted to trade it anyway. Since this is not a beginners guide page, I think it's wrong to advise people to a 50% profit margin that is much higher than necessary. Once the traders are happy, they will even agree to trading an anvil for an anvil. I tested this extensively because usually i want them to leave early and thus try to make them angry. Almost impossible. We could however add smth about the (suspected) advantages of having high export totals like bigger caravans, more immigrants, arrival of king. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 06:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
::The 50% rule of thumb is a good starting point either way. "Advanced" page or not, before I posted that, there was no guidance on what profit margin the visiting traders would generally accept, so that people were left to find out the hard way.
::Going back through a long list of your trade goods to hunt down and remove the items which the visiting trader added to the offer seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, unless you just have very few trade goods or a really tight budget at your fortress.
::As for being able to get away with lower margins once the trader is happy, that is definitely useful knowledge and could be expanded upon. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 12:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

There is no way to refuse a counter-offer, is there? The only option is to hit {{k|Enter}}, and the "goods are added to the pot" as you say ... correct? --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 09:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

:Correct, however, you're free to simply remove the additionally requested items and re-offer. In the case of a new trader in his first few trade sessions, this will likely work, as he gained experience (probably a LOT) just by offering. Even if it doesn't, as long as you don't repeat it many times (4+ I'd say) then there's no real risk of driving them off. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:16, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

::I find it easiest to commence one dwarf with novice valuer that way you already know prices... within the first trading I can usually get some items at straight trade (0% profit) maybe it depends on civilisation demands.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:14, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:::If you want a trade to succeed just make sure the trader gets 100-1000* profit. Almost every trade I made with this method was accepted. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:09, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

== Goblins butchering my caravans. ==

Every time I trade with the caravans, a goblin ambush comes and the merchants are all killed. Ive taken new measures to prevent this, but will merchants come back to trade? and what effect does their death have? —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wafl|Wafl]] ([[User talk:Wafl|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Wafl|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}

My caravans get shot up by goblins all the time. Then you get to loot their stuff. The caravans always seem to come back next year. [[User:Ripheus|Ripheus]] 22:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading flowchart ==

Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)

Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right
{|cellpadding="2" border="1"
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2| Make or obtain goods to trade || Build Depot ({{K|b}} - {{K|D}})
|-
| Ensure Depot is accessible ({{K|D}})
Check green area reaches edge of map
|-
| colspan=3 | Wait until a caravan arrives on the map
"A--- caravan from --- has arrived."
|-
| Set goods to be traded ({{K|q}} - {{K|g}}) || Request a trader ({{K|q}} - {{K|r}}) || Wait for caravan to reach the depot
"Merchants have arrived and are unloading their goods"
|-
| Wait for goods to be hauled || Wait for the trader to finish their other tasks and go to the depot || Wait for the rest of the caravan to reach the depot and be unloaded
|-
| colspan=3 | Begin actual trading ({{K|q}} - {{K|t}})
|}

Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... [[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]]

:Ask and ye shall receive
{|cellspacing=0 align=center
|-
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Arrive at fortress location
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Create Goods
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Build Depot
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Check Depot is accessible
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Set goods to be traded
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan to arrive at depot and merchants to finish unloading
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for goods to be hauled
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Request the trader at the depot and turn off his other labours
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Trade
|}
You'll note I shifted the location of requesting trader --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
:The above was the first draft. You can access the current version at [[Trading/Flowchart]]. Anyway, what I wanted to say was '''Re: Adeptable's changes'''
:I don't think the third branch is neccesary. For one, it makes it seem too wide, and secondary it implies that turning off the trader's labours ''all the time'' means that trading will happen faster - almost as if it will make merchants arrive more often. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 23:36, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

== Offerings ==

Can anyone expound on the function of {{K|o}}ffering goods as gifts to traders? I tried giving the elves about 1000 worth of tchotchkes, and the next year they showed up with more goods than I've ever seen -- lots of caged animals, whereas I usually get very few, and so on. However, other times I gave them more and it seemed nothing changed. [[User:Anydwarf|Anydwarf]] 12:01, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Gifts to the traders (and large trading profits) should increase the number of traders / wagons you get the following year, so they'll bring more stuff to trade. AFAIK no-one knows about the numbers for sure though. [[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Add hint: "Buy everything ... in case you get a strange mood"? ==

Personally I've found it very useful to do this:

When traders arrive,
a) optionally check stocks.
b) Buy everything you can't make or harvest in your own fort.
c) In the diplomat meeting, order everything you can't make or harvest.

To be specific: Thread, Silk, cloth, metal bars (anything else?).

The reason:
a) Dwarves sometimes demand items out of some metal or alloy they like.
b) Dwarves who are possessed or get a strange mood will sometimes demand silk or cloth.

Players who proactively (harr!) seek to stock materials for possible moods will IMO have much less of a problem with dwarves going insane from moods. However I couldn't figure out where (or if) I should insert that, so I'll just add this idea (adding a hint: buy everything you don't have) to the discussion.

Also, as far as I know, possessed/moody dwarves in the current version (27.176.38c) do not demand specific items. Rather, they want a) any metal bar b) any metal ore c) Silk d) Cloth e) wood f) raw gem g) any stone ... that was it, right?. So probably such a hint could read something like:

"NOTE: If your fortress cannot harvest silk, it would be useful to order some from the caravans. If you do not have a cloth industry yet, maybe order some cloth as well. Having a small stock of materials which you are not actively using in your economy - e.g. GCS silk - will increase the likelihood of your fortress gaining an artifact from any mood or possession."
[[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Clear the perimeter? ==

Is clearing the entire perimeter of the map really necessary? While my depot has been accessible at all, the caravan has '''always''' appeared at a point with access to the depot. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
:What the article says is:
:#Caravans enter the map from a random direction which does not coincide with the relative direction of the originating civilization,
:#they may appear from different directions or z-levels each year
:#they cannot use stairs
:#they may leave without trading if it takes too long to reach the trade depot
:With the above points in mind:
:#In order to guarantee perfect, permanent wagon accessibility, a three tile path must be cleared around the entire perimeter of the map, with at least one joining path from the border to the trade depot. Any parts of this path system which have grass must be paved with floor tiles, bridges, or roads to prevent trees from growing. Ramps must be used to adjust z-level elevation.

I have certainly had a depot accessible to the southern border, then had the human merchants only turn up with mules because they were approaching from a different direction.

The recommendations are how to ensure the human wagons turn up every summer (it also helps to remember to have your drawbridge down as soon as summer commences!) If you are not so concerned about human merchants then ignore the advice. If you don't have enough dwarf-power then ignore the advice. Some of it only needs to be done once (ie: adjusting slopes), and some of it just gives you more territory to consider for defending from invaders (being open to merchants also opens you to invaders).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:33, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

==Seizing goods==
"It is worth noting that in the Mac port (untested for other ports), you can simply remove the depot that the merchants are camped out on to recieve all their goods."

I can confirm that this also works in the PC version.[[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 14:07, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Empty caravans ==

human, elf, and dwarf caravans bringing me nothing.
is it possible to have a depot too full? --[[User:Eerr|Eerr]] 07:30, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:In recent versions of the game I've noticed that traders, after their initial visit, will only bring what was mentioned in your previous trade agreement with them. In earlier versions they'd bring all sorts of tat along too. Did you perhaps not request any goods for import? I don't imagine this could affect the Elves as well though. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 08:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

::Prior to the latest group of releases, I'd been getting empty caravans for a LONG time, Elves and Humans alike, and occasionally even the Dwarves. Hasn't happened to me in the e release yet though (hadn't spent too much time on the other releases). --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:13, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

== starvation ==

it must be because they brought food to my starving settlement
(dwarves will run out and get food straight from the caravan)

== Added a small bit. ==

I quickly changed the section about the possible exploit of deleting a trade depot from Mac-only-bug to an across the board phenomenon.

== Caravan at Inaccessible Depot ==

I assume it is related to the 3 wide path only showing as 1 green square, but the caravan has stopped at a trade depot that is listed as inaccessible. Does this mean that some trade depots will show bad with SHIFT-D but are actually okay? --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 21:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

:The three-wide path showing only one green square is, to my knowledge, correct. That green is the center of the path, along which the center of the wagon must align with to fit within the three-wide path. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 23:14, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

::Thanks. It'd be nice then if the Shift-D showed that as a caravan accessible depot then. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 01:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Correction: It does, there was a boulder in the way that I did not see. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 22:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

== 50% profit rule ==

This really, REALLY needs to be made clearer in the game. There's nothing wrong with the trader telling us how much profit he'd expect from our goods! I've got tens of thousands worth of goods that I haven't sold for two years straight because the bloody traders wouldn't tell me how much they want, and I didn't find the 50% rule buried in this article until just now! --[[User:Theory|Theory]] 09:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:It's hardly 'buried' in the article, it's certainly not a rule, and it is made pretty clear in the game. I'm not just trying to be contrary; let me explain: A skilled broker can routinely trade with only a thirty or twenty percent profit, even down to ten percent if the merchant is in a good mood. If the merchant wants more profit, he will either put forth a counter-offer or say "With your trade goods such as they are, I can't possibly imagine you getting all of those items." This seems like a pretty clear indication that he wants a bigger margin. As to its place in the article: a full half of the section titled "Trading" details the fifty percent suggestion. If you think it deserves increased prominence, I encourage you to edit it yourself. Them's my six cents. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 17:16, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:: afaik, traders will accept ''any'' profit, as long as they're not annoyed and also as long as you're not trying to buy 'high-tech' items like steel anvils or bars, with 'low-tech' items such as poorly crafted pieces of stone, bone etc [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 17:58, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Elves and dead stuff==

it seems elves will make counter-offers for dead stuff, like totems, bone and shell crafts... needs to be fixed imo [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 18:00, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Adamantium in trade window==

I've just noticed that Adamantine strands appear in my trade window in purple text despite them not being present at the depot and marked for trade. I'm fairly sure that this is something to do with mandates from the nobles (my broker has forbade the export of adamantine) but I can't find any mention of this on the Wiki, any thoughts? [[User:Extar|Extar]] 21:55, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
I did a bit more testing and the purple text is clearly to do with export bans, I'll add it to the mandate page. [[User:Extar|Extar]] 22:02, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

==They are selling dead animals?!==

I don't know if this is because my fortress is in the freezing tundra, but all caravans offer me cages with dead, butcherable corpses inside. I don't complain about this: There's no additional charge for them, and so I get free meat, fat, skins and bones. Does this happen in other biomes, too? --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 09:43, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Carvan over ? ==
Can someone please help me, I need to know if caravans can travel over traps in the latest version, and also if the people will get caught in them and die, and could whoever tests this please do it with all types of traps, not just one. Thank you in advance. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 15:57, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
:They have no problems with stone traps, cage traps, or weapon traps in my experience. :) Until the King started requesting them before he'd show up, I didn't bother with roads. I just paved the way to the edge with traps. One catch is that creatures who fall unconscious (and maybe randomly some dogs) will get caught in the traps. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 19:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

== Inaccessible Depot ==
What happens if a caravan arrives and you have no accessible depot at all? Do they pass you by? Do they wait around offscreen to give you a chance to build or expose one? My depot is underground, accessible only by a drawbridged path. I'd prefer to keep the bridge up (which means ''no'' access, foot or wagon), until I need it, but I don't want to miss a caravan. 
Also, what happens if, after the traders enter the map, the depot they are heading to becomes inaccessible? I could put a sacrificial depot outside to draw them in, then seal it up after opening my secure depot.--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:43, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I don't have first-hand experience with this, but I would say the second option is your best bet.{{verify}} Plus, you could make the second depot bait for a monster trap somehow. Just be sure that the traders can't get to the bait-depot by the time they get near it, or they'll unload there, and you'll have to haul the additional distance. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 16:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I've had a few caravans show up before I get a Trade Depot going a few times, because I have a tendency to over-engineer and get sidetracked. The text claims they 'bypass your inaccessable site', but when in all the times I've done this, they hang around a while and if I quickly build a Trade Depot, they'll happily come over and trade with me as though nothing ever happened. 
::While I can't be certain if a caravan will behave the exact same way if the depot is inaccessible instead of nonexistent, I'd be willing to bet that's the case. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 16:53, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

== Locking them In ==
What happens if you trap traders in the depot area and they want to leave? Does it count as attaching them? If the goblins show up, I have to to seal the bridges, whether the traders are gone or not. 
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:23, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
:As long as the traders don't go insane from you delaying them, you're most likely fine. That said, it'd probably behoove you to let them out regardless of the danger. If they have guards, the guards will go to town on the goblins. If they don't, they get slaughtered and you can claim everything they were holding, guilt-free.
:--[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:39, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
::''Emotioal'' guilt or ''political'' guilt? Doesn't a vanished caravan damage political relations even if I didn't kill them?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:42, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Trading

2008-10-16T21:23:45Z

Macdjord:

== Consolidation of Trading, Trade Depot, Caravans, and Wagon ==

This needs wikification with some amounts of rewriting. I will give it a go. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 06:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Yea thanks, this is my first try at a wiki-page. sorry if it was crappy... --[[User:CombatWombat|CombatWombat]] 06:42, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Nah, there's no such thing as a crappy wiki edit, when its got content in it. Just remember to be bold, otherwise there would be nothing here. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 07:29, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Well this thread's a little old, but I re-wrote and consolidated some more information on this page. There was also some discussion of this on [[Talk:Caravan#Merge_this_into_Trading]]. If you don't approve, please don't just revert it, I organized and cleaned up a lot of the scattered info, so at the very least it should be split from where it is now on the Trading page to where it should ultimately go. --[[User:Marble Dice|Marble Dice]] 02:48, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

This article needs to be seperated. We dont find crafting and the craftdwarf workshop in the same article and the same goes here too. Trading is how to trade and what it means in this game. Trade depot is a construct. An encyclopedia defines things and as such we should define them seperately. It all needs to be organized as well. The flow chart is undefined and in the wrong section, etc.
Ill move some stuff around and work to clean some up now but nothing to radical at the moment... what do you think?
[[User:Iluziat|Iluziat]] 07:03, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

== Extraction from different articles ==

All the information on trading seems quite scattered now (Trade depot, Caravan, Dwarf, Elf, Human etc), and as most stuff is well written I think we should merge the trade sections to this one page and leave behind only refecences. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 08:29, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:Looking good, is there a 'your first caravan'-type tutorial anywhere we could link to? Something with advice on the sort of goods to prepare and what to buy for the first winter, with new players in mind. I'll try and find one somewhere. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, linked to the trade section in the new player guide. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::Done++ Someone else finish merging the information from Caravans into the page. Make sure to get that awesome Elf trader image. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 12:10, 28 January 2008 (EST)

== Haulers? ==
In my experience the "bring item to depot" tasks were performed by any dwarf, even without any hauling labors enabled. Can also be my imagination. I cannot check it for now, so, anyone, please verify.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:That's correct, as many times my pure crafters will stop crafting to haul goods to the depot, despite having only one or two production labors enabled. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:41, 28 January 2008 (EST)
::Is this similar to plant gathering where even non-working nobles and children will do it, or is it limted to any regular dwarf regardless of labour? --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 19:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:::Yes, nobles and children will haul stuff to the depot. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== Moving goods on afterwards ==

To get things ''out'' of the depot.... do I have to order them removed while the caravan is still around?
I have starving dwarves... and food going rotten in the depot![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)
:AFAIK, no. in my experience, anything bought is treated as like it's just lying there, not being traded.
Well, yes and no. Once trading is finished dwarves will start bringing the bought goods in while the caravan still is there. But you cant 'order' them to per se ;) Your own stuff that wasnt sold however will remain in depot till the caravan leaves. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 18:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Unless you go back into the {{k|g}}oods menu at the Depot and unmark them for trading. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 04:25, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I've a question in the same vein: I just traded for a truckload of goods, but the traders didn't even leave them in the depot! They just carried my goods out with them. Were my dwarves supposed to carry all of the goods back earlier? --[[User:Gh3yz0r|Gh3yz0r]] 14:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)

==Duplicate Page?==
The page "Caravan" has very similar information, though this "trading" page seems more complete.[Samyotix]

== culling on mandates ==

what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)
:I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)

== "everything is ruined now" ==
I just accidentally tried to trade the elves a wooden bin full of stone goods. Now ALL my stone goods, including ones not actually in that bin, are unacceptable. I ended up just seizing the rope I needed, but I'd like to know if this is a glitch, or if I just made them too angry to trade. —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shadow archmagi|Shadow archmagi]] ([[User talk:Shadow archmagi|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Shadow archmagi|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}
:It's not a glitch. Elves refuse to trade at all after you give them even a single wood or animal product. After you do that the trade option is locked until they come back to trade next year. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:52, 27 February 2008 (EST)
:The wooden bin told the elves you hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate animals. Don't trade dead trees or dead animal parts to elves. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 13:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

==Depot Access==
Not a single square on my map is accessible by the caravan. What should i do? --[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

EDIT: My bad. It seems that it shows every square as inaccessible if the depot is not fully constructed--[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading Margins ==
In regards to this submission:
"If you have a somewhat experienced broker or you already raised the traiders mood to pleased or above you can usually trade with marginal profit for them and you can also safely ignore their counteroffers, offering the same trade a second time, successfully."

You do realize that when they make a counteroffer they automatically add those counteroffer goods to the pot, right? Just making sure. Are you saying you go back through and remove each item their counteroffer added to your side of the deal? Seems much simpler to just stick to the ~50% rule of thumb, especially at the beginning with low skills and again once you reach the point of having so many trade goods that you can easily buy everything you need from each caravan with plenty of goods left over. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 14:55, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
: Yes, exactly. Whenever i get a counteroffer I remove all items from the list they added until their profit is back to what i deem fit, sometimes leaving a low value item, say, 50☼, they chose, if I wanted to trade it anyway. Since this is not a beginners guide page, I think it's wrong to advise people to a 50% profit margin that is much higher than necessary. Once the traders are happy, they will even agree to trading an anvil for an anvil. I tested this extensively because usually i want them to leave early and thus try to make them angry. Almost impossible. We could however add smth about the (suspected) advantages of having high export totals like bigger caravans, more immigrants, arrival of king. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 06:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
::The 50% rule of thumb is a good starting point either way. "Advanced" page or not, before I posted that, there was no guidance on what profit margin the visiting traders would generally accept, so that people were left to find out the hard way.
::Going back through a long list of your trade goods to hunt down and remove the items which the visiting trader added to the offer seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, unless you just have very few trade goods or a really tight budget at your fortress.
::As for being able to get away with lower margins once the trader is happy, that is definitely useful knowledge and could be expanded upon. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 12:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

There is no way to refuse a counter-offer, is there? The only option is to hit {{k|Enter}}, and the "goods are added to the pot" as you say ... correct? --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 09:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

:Correct, however, you're free to simply remove the additionally requested items and re-offer. In the case of a new trader in his first few trade sessions, this will likely work, as he gained experience (probably a LOT) just by offering. Even if it doesn't, as long as you don't repeat it many times (4+ I'd say) then there's no real risk of driving them off. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:16, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

::I find it easiest to commence one dwarf with novice valuer that way you already know prices... within the first trading I can usually get some items at straight trade (0% profit) maybe it depends on civilisation demands.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:14, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:::If you want a trade to succeed just make sure the trader gets 100-1000* profit. Almost every trade I made with this method was accepted. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:09, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

== Goblins butchering my caravans. ==

Every time I trade with the caravans, a goblin ambush comes and the merchants are all killed. Ive taken new measures to prevent this, but will merchants come back to trade? and what effect does their death have? —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wafl|Wafl]] ([[User talk:Wafl|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Wafl|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}

My caravans get shot up by goblins all the time. Then you get to loot their stuff. The caravans always seem to come back next year. [[User:Ripheus|Ripheus]] 22:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading flowchart ==

Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)

Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right
{|cellpadding="2" border="1"
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2| Make or obtain goods to trade || Build Depot ({{K|b}} - {{K|D}})
|-
| Ensure Depot is accessible ({{K|D}})
Check green area reaches edge of map
|-
| colspan=3 | Wait until a caravan arrives on the map
"A--- caravan from --- has arrived."
|-
| Set goods to be traded ({{K|q}} - {{K|g}}) || Request a trader ({{K|q}} - {{K|r}}) || Wait for caravan to reach the depot
"Merchants have arrived and are unloading their goods"
|-
| Wait for goods to be hauled || Wait for the trader to finish their other tasks and go to the depot || Wait for the rest of the caravan to reach the depot and be unloaded
|-
| colspan=3 | Begin actual trading ({{K|q}} - {{K|t}})
|}

Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... [[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]]

:Ask and ye shall receive
{|cellspacing=0 align=center
|-
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Arrive at fortress location
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Create Goods
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Build Depot
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Check Depot is accessible
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Set goods to be traded
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan to arrive at depot and merchants to finish unloading
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for goods to be hauled
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Request the trader at the depot and turn off his other labours
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Trade
|}
You'll note I shifted the location of requesting trader --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
:The above was the first draft. You can access the current version at [[Trading/Flowchart]]. Anyway, what I wanted to say was '''Re: Adeptable's changes'''
:I don't think the third branch is neccesary. For one, it makes it seem too wide, and secondary it implies that turning off the trader's labours ''all the time'' means that trading will happen faster - almost as if it will make merchants arrive more often. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 23:36, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

== Offerings ==

Can anyone expound on the function of {{K|o}}ffering goods as gifts to traders? I tried giving the elves about 1000 worth of tchotchkes, and the next year they showed up with more goods than I've ever seen -- lots of caged animals, whereas I usually get very few, and so on. However, other times I gave them more and it seemed nothing changed. [[User:Anydwarf|Anydwarf]] 12:01, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Gifts to the traders (and large trading profits) should increase the number of traders / wagons you get the following year, so they'll bring more stuff to trade. AFAIK no-one knows about the numbers for sure though. [[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Add hint: "Buy everything ... in case you get a strange mood"? ==

Personally I've found it very useful to do this:

When traders arrive,
a) optionally check stocks.
b) Buy everything you can't make or harvest in your own fort.
c) In the diplomat meeting, order everything you can't make or harvest.

To be specific: Thread, Silk, cloth, metal bars (anything else?).

The reason:
a) Dwarves sometimes demand items out of some metal or alloy they like.
b) Dwarves who are possessed or get a strange mood will sometimes demand silk or cloth.

Players who proactively (harr!) seek to stock materials for possible moods will IMO have much less of a problem with dwarves going insane from moods. However I couldn't figure out where (or if) I should insert that, so I'll just add this idea (adding a hint: buy everything you don't have) to the discussion.

Also, as far as I know, possessed/moody dwarves in the current version (27.176.38c) do not demand specific items. Rather, they want a) any metal bar b) any metal ore c) Silk d) Cloth e) wood f) raw gem g) any stone ... that was it, right?. So probably such a hint could read something like:

"NOTE: If your fortress cannot harvest silk, it would be useful to order some from the caravans. If you do not have a cloth industry yet, maybe order some cloth as well. Having a small stock of materials which you are not actively using in your economy - e.g. GCS silk - will increase the likelihood of your fortress gaining an artifact from any mood or possession."
[[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Clear the perimeter? ==

Is clearing the entire perimeter of the map really necessary? While my depot has been accessible at all, the caravan has '''always''' appeared at a point with access to the depot. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
:What the article says is:
:#Caravans enter the map from a random direction which does not coincide with the relative direction of the originating civilization,
:#they may appear from different directions or z-levels each year
:#they cannot use stairs
:#they may leave without trading if it takes too long to reach the trade depot
:With the above points in mind:
:#In order to guarantee perfect, permanent wagon accessibility, a three tile path must be cleared around the entire perimeter of the map, with at least one joining path from the border to the trade depot. Any parts of this path system which have grass must be paved with floor tiles, bridges, or roads to prevent trees from growing. Ramps must be used to adjust z-level elevation.

I have certainly had a depot accessible to the southern border, then had the human merchants only turn up with mules because they were approaching from a different direction.

The recommendations are how to ensure the human wagons turn up every summer (it also helps to remember to have your drawbridge down as soon as summer commences!) If you are not so concerned about human merchants then ignore the advice. If you don't have enough dwarf-power then ignore the advice. Some of it only needs to be done once (ie: adjusting slopes), and some of it just gives you more territory to consider for defending from invaders (being open to merchants also opens you to invaders).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:33, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

==Seizing goods==
"It is worth noting that in the Mac port (untested for other ports), you can simply remove the depot that the merchants are camped out on to recieve all their goods."

I can confirm that this also works in the PC version.[[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 14:07, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Empty caravans ==

human, elf, and dwarf caravans bringing me nothing.
is it possible to have a depot too full? --[[User:Eerr|Eerr]] 07:30, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:In recent versions of the game I've noticed that traders, after their initial visit, will only bring what was mentioned in your previous trade agreement with them. In earlier versions they'd bring all sorts of tat along too. Did you perhaps not request any goods for import? I don't imagine this could affect the Elves as well though. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 08:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

::Prior to the latest group of releases, I'd been getting empty caravans for a LONG time, Elves and Humans alike, and occasionally even the Dwarves. Hasn't happened to me in the e release yet though (hadn't spent too much time on the other releases). --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:13, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

== starvation ==

it must be because they brought food to my starving settlement
(dwarves will run out and get food straight from the caravan)

== Added a small bit. ==

I quickly changed the section about the possible exploit of deleting a trade depot from Mac-only-bug to an across the board phenomenon.

== Caravan at Inaccessible Depot ==

I assume it is related to the 3 wide path only showing as 1 green square, but the caravan has stopped at a trade depot that is listed as inaccessible. Does this mean that some trade depots will show bad with SHIFT-D but are actually okay? --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 21:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

:The three-wide path showing only one green square is, to my knowledge, correct. That green is the center of the path, along which the center of the wagon must align with to fit within the three-wide path. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 23:14, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

::Thanks. It'd be nice then if the Shift-D showed that as a caravan accessible depot then. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 01:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Correction: It does, there was a boulder in the way that I did not see. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 22:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

== 50% profit rule ==

This really, REALLY needs to be made clearer in the game. There's nothing wrong with the trader telling us how much profit he'd expect from our goods! I've got tens of thousands worth of goods that I haven't sold for two years straight because the bloody traders wouldn't tell me how much they want, and I didn't find the 50% rule buried in this article until just now! --[[User:Theory|Theory]] 09:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:It's hardly 'buried' in the article, it's certainly not a rule, and it is made pretty clear in the game. I'm not just trying to be contrary; let me explain: A skilled broker can routinely trade with only a thirty or twenty percent profit, even down to ten percent if the merchant is in a good mood. If the merchant wants more profit, he will either put forth a counter-offer or say "With your trade goods such as they are, I can't possibly imagine you getting all of those items." This seems like a pretty clear indication that he wants a bigger margin. As to its place in the article: a full half of the section titled "Trading" details the fifty percent suggestion. If you think it deserves increased prominence, I encourage you to edit it yourself. Them's my six cents. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 17:16, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:: afaik, traders will accept ''any'' profit, as long as they're not annoyed and also as long as you're not trying to buy 'high-tech' items like steel anvils or bars, with 'low-tech' items such as poorly crafted pieces of stone, bone etc [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 17:58, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Elves and dead stuff==

it seems elves will make counter-offers for dead stuff, like totems, bone and shell crafts... needs to be fixed imo [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 18:00, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Adamantium in trade window==

I've just noticed that Adamantine strands appear in my trade window in purple text despite them not being present at the depot and marked for trade. I'm fairly sure that this is something to do with mandates from the nobles (my broker has forbade the export of adamantine) but I can't find any mention of this on the Wiki, any thoughts? [[User:Extar|Extar]] 21:55, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
I did a bit more testing and the purple text is clearly to do with export bans, I'll add it to the mandate page. [[User:Extar|Extar]] 22:02, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

==They are selling dead animals?!==

I don't know if this is because my fortress is in the freezing tundra, but all caravans offer me cages with dead, butcherable corpses inside. I don't complain about this: There's no additional charge for them, and so I get free meat, fat, skins and bones. Does this happen in other biomes, too? --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 09:43, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Carvan over ? ==
Can someone please help me, I need to know if caravans can travel over traps in the latest version, and also if the people will get caught in them and die, and could whoever tests this please do it with all types of traps, not just one. Thank you in advance. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 15:57, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
:They have no problems with stone traps, cage traps, or weapon traps in my experience. :) Until the King started requesting them before he'd show up, I didn't bother with roads. I just paved the way to the edge with traps. One catch is that creatures who fall unconscious (and maybe randomly some dogs) will get caught in the traps. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 19:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

== Inaccessible Depot ==
What happens if a caravan arrives and you have no accessible depot at all? Do they pass you by? Do they wait around offscreen to give you a chance to build or expose one? My depot is underground, accessible only by a drawbridged path. I'd prefer to keep the bridge up (which means ''no'' access, foot or wagon), until I need it, but I don't want to miss a caravan. 
Also, what happens if, after the traders enter the map, the depot they are heading to becomes inaccessible? I could put a sacrificial depot outside to draw them in, then seal it up after opening my secure depot.--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:43, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I don't have first-hand experience with this, but I would say the second option is your best bet.{{verify}} Plus, you could make the second depot bait for a monster trap somehow. Just be sure that the traders can't get to the bait-depot by the time they get near it, or they'll unload there, and you'll have to haul the additional distance. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 16:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::I've had a few caravans show up before I get a Trade Depot going a few times, because I have a tendency to over-engineer and get sidetracked. The text claims they 'bypass your inaccessable site', but when in all the times I've done this, they hang around a while and if I quickly build a Trade Depot, they'll happily come over and trade with me as though nothing ever happened. 
::While I can't be certain if a caravan will behave the exact same way if the depot is inaccessible instead of nonexistent, I'd be willing to bet that's the case. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 16:53, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

== Locking them In ==
What happens if you trap traders in the depot area and they want to leave? Does it count as attaching them? If the goblins show up, I have to to seal the bridges, whether the traders are gone or not. 
--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:23, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Lever

2008-10-16T21:17:51Z

Macdjord: /* Inverting a Lever */

== floodgates vs. doors misinformation? ==
"''Therefore, it is more logical to use doors, at least until doors aren't usable for holding back water.''"

I'm fairly certain that doors can't be closed while flooded. They work as described for opening via lever, but cannot close when blocked by water or creatures.
Granted, the last time i've levered doors was back in 2d. Please verify or change the wording? --[[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 15:49, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

:In the current version{{version|0.27.176.38c}} doors can close if water currently occupies the same square. I believe elsewhere the wiki states this destroys the water, but I have not verified if the water is destroyed. --[[User:Quartic|quartic]] 16:18, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
::Does it matter how much water? -- [[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 13:35, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
:::I have verified this with water of depth 1 and 7, but not values in between.--[[User:Quartic|quartic]] 13:38, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Todo: Check whether two levers connected to the same door operate it in the same way the older versions did - that is, pulling each lever once would open the door, then do nothing as the second lever is pulled. -- [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 19:23, 7 November 2007 (EST)

I'm using vertical bars as portcullis for my keep, and they attach to levers. Perhaps a comment that bars and grates operate identically in this version, specifically with respect to levers? -Gotthard

== controlling at a distance ==

Does the lever need to be adjacent to the item it is controlling?

I want to put a floodgate at the end of a channel... [[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 02:52, 23 January 2008 (EST)
:No, it can be anywhere.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 02:57, 23 January 2008 (EST)

so, analog to the support-cave-in-trap how about building a nice water basin, say 4x4 for a start and covering it with grates, all connected to a lever - do grates have to be attached to a wall or floor on one side? I will try *broad grin* --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:45, 22 February 2008 (EST)

:Grates must be attached to a wall on one side, although you can put grates next to only grates and the dwarves will build them. Followed by their collapse. Like walls off bridges.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 18:31, 2 March 2008 (EST)

:Try building supports under them. SL's hand of armok uses supports under hatches in a similar way. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:37, 2 March 2008 (EST)

::Yeah, its not working like i wanted it too. The support thing will probably work. Or I will just leave a few walls in the basin..will try that later, busy right now. *watches goblin fly away in high arc* --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 19:52, 3 March 2008 (EST)

Regarding remote activation/control: I just spent 10 minutes berating my dwarves for completely ignoring two Pull Lever commands while vile forces of darkness approached, only to find that once I removed the Dwarves Stay Indoors restriction, they happily stepped up to the, uh, lever. The bridges are outside, the levers are on the level below. Has anyone else experienced this? [[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 17:49, 22 March 2008 (EST)

:Was the lever and/or any part of the path to the lever marked as "outside"? Use {{k|k}} to check. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 10:25, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::I checked and one of the levers was indeed marked "outside". In fact, there are several squares on my first underground level that are marked "outside". Is that because they are in the general area of the stairway leading outside? Thank you for the info. --[[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 18:42, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

:::When I quit reading all new forum messages and stayed at the wiki, I thought this would stop. [[Outside|Read The Wiki]]. Really. Read it. No, really, click on that link. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 19:57, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

== Megabeasts ==

I have noticed that a bridge that a hydra is standing on cannot be retracted {{version|0.27.176.38c}}. Has anyone else had similar experiences? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:15, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Titans cause the same problem. I conjecture that bridged can't be retracted while megabeasts are standing on them. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:08, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Also elephants, it seems. Possibly creature size. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:18, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Dragons cause the same problem. Are megabeasts supposed to all show up at once like this? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

== Proposed addition: Mechanism sequence ==

Given the problems that arise when using non magma-safe materials for mechanisms on floodgates, it is quite handy to know which mechanisms go where at the link selection (When for example you're really low on bauxite). 
From my experimentation with floodgate-lever, the first mechanism selected goes at the gate and the second one at the lever. I still haven't activated the contraption, but I'm assuming it's going to be ok. 
I'm also assuming the same is usefull for grates and bars. --[[User:Nonickch]], unsigned

:There is some lower-down text that tells you which mechanism goes in where. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 08:30, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

== Finding Links ==

Is it possible to determine what a lever is linked to without pulling it and checking to see what happens? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 00:43, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
:AFAIK the only way is to attempt to link the lever to a built object and notice which one if any is not available.
:eg if you have two bridges but only one is available to be linked to, it is because you are already linked to the other one.
:This would be a really good feature if it was implemented.
:[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 09:55, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

:I guess this is one good use for the new note-feature: Just use the same note for lever and target. --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 10:17, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

== Max number of links? ==

''Is there a limit to the amount of objects that can be linked to a lever?''--[[User:Thendash|Thendash]] 22:56, 19 September 2008 (EDT)

== Speeding the job of linking ==

Is it just me or does it not only take forever to finish the job of linking the lever to something, but also the dwarves treat it as extremely low priority? I've sometimes had to had an entire year for one of them to deign to hook it up. Incidentally, it is the Mechanics job that they use for that, right? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 15:48, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: I haven't noticed anything about the priority of the job, but yes, it take hella long to finish it. Some big linking job (eg. linking a large bridge to a remote lever) are virtually impossible to complete without an experienced mecanic... dwarves don't manage to end the job before feeling the urge to eat or drink or something, and all their work is lost when they return, ending in an infinite loop. [[User:Timst|Timst]] 19:47, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: Unless it's changed in the year since I've played, the mechanic must move the mechanisms to the lever and the "something", then spend time working on both the lever and the "something", all without being interrupted. Consider a 1-square stockpile next to both the lever and the something and choosing those unique mechanisms when you assign the linkage job. -- [[User:Qwip|Qwip]] 16:42, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

:: The catch, so far, is figuring out the "unique" mechanisms in the list. Short of making sure that that stockpile is the only one that carries Schist Mechanisms or something similar... Unlike the other "pick an item" lists, you can't specify a sort and there's nothing zooming you to the item that you will use. On a mildly unrelated note, I realized that part of the reason for my delay was that I was building large amounts of stone traps, so the nearest mechanism that was not already tied up in a trap building job was quote some distance away. I had this problem with the nearby stockpile as well, as it was also fairly close to the traps. It would be nice to even get a distance count on the mechanisms. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 11:48, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::When you choose the mechanism for the lever or trap, it does tell you its distance.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 12:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::: Addendum to Maximus's comment: When selecting the material to be used, you can e{{k|x}}pand the list of materials, and then select a particular item. Therefore, you can build a single-tile stockpile, then customize it (using {{k|q}} then {{k|s}}settings) to only allow a certain quality mechanism. Link the lever after these stockpiles have been filled. [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 16:21, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

== Inverting a Lever ==

I think I found a way to automatically invert the signal of a lever, say if you wanted one lever to open one door and close another. It involves a bridge and water, so it would not be instant. I haven't tested it yet. Anyone know if it would work?
<pre>Side view: (Sorry, I realize this isn't the standard tileset, but my text editor doesn't have them all.)
#####
#_~@W
##D##

W - Water source (Under at least 7/7 pressure)
D - Water drain
_ - Pressure plate, set to activate under water of depth 4-7
@ - Hinge of a raisable bridge, connected to the main lever (offscreen)
~ - Bridge over channel
# - Solid rock</pre>
When the main lever is OFF, the bridge is down. It allows water to flow past its hinge, and it covers the drain. Water fills the room, triggering the plate, which sends an ON signal. 
When the main lever is ON, the bridge raises. The hinge blocks water from flowing in, and the uncovered drain empties the room. The plate detriggers, sending OFF. 
WARNING: The drain must not fill! If it does, you wont be able to get into the room to connect more mechanisms to the plate.
Option: If your water source is infinite, make your drain a hallway, at least 3 long, with a raising bridge that comes down from the far end. When the main lever is activated, the hallway floods. Shortly afterwards, the plate detriggers. After a short delay, the bridge slams down, destroying the water. 
--17:52, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

: Isn't it simpler to build two levers? Especially considering the pressure plate takes as many mechanisms? I don't really understand what you are trying to accomplish here.
:--[[User:MagicGuigz|MagicGuigz]] 17:34, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

::If you want a single action to do some "on" actions and some "off" actions - e.g. if from a stylistic point of view you want to have a single "activate outer defenses" lever that raises bridges over moats and puts down bridges blocking catapults.
::--[[User:Random832|Random832]] 19:35, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

::: It's more than stylistic. My designs are complex systems, created on the assumption that only certain combinations of states are possible - that when ''this'' bridge is down, ''that'' bridge is always up, and that when ''this'' floodgate is open, ''that'' door is always closed. If I allow things to enter a condition I hadn't planned for - either because I forgot to throw both leavers, or the dwarf died between them, or whatever - there is literally no telling what would happen. It could drop civilians into a line of fire, or flood the fortress, or expose the marksdwarves to the enemy without also releasing their infantry guards.
:::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 16:08, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:I'd say you should consult the [[Computing]] and [[Mechanical Logic]] pages then. Should find all the components you need there.
:--[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 16:13, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

::Doesn't help. That's all about power transfer - gears, axels, waterwheels... It only uses levers for input, not output - I could connect my controll leaver to a not-gate like [[Mechanical_Logic#NOT_or_BUFFER|this one]], but how do i connect ''that'' to a bridge?
::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 17:17, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Lever

2008-10-16T20:08:26Z

Macdjord: /* Inverting a Lever */

== floodgates vs. doors misinformation? ==
"''Therefore, it is more logical to use doors, at least until doors aren't usable for holding back water.''"

I'm fairly certain that doors can't be closed while flooded. They work as described for opening via lever, but cannot close when blocked by water or creatures.
Granted, the last time i've levered doors was back in 2d. Please verify or change the wording? --[[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 15:49, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

:In the current version{{version|0.27.176.38c}} doors can close if water currently occupies the same square. I believe elsewhere the wiki states this destroys the water, but I have not verified if the water is destroyed. --[[User:Quartic|quartic]] 16:18, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
::Does it matter how much water? -- [[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 13:35, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
:::I have verified this with water of depth 1 and 7, but not values in between.--[[User:Quartic|quartic]] 13:38, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Todo: Check whether two levers connected to the same door operate it in the same way the older versions did - that is, pulling each lever once would open the door, then do nothing as the second lever is pulled. -- [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 19:23, 7 November 2007 (EST)

I'm using vertical bars as portcullis for my keep, and they attach to levers. Perhaps a comment that bars and grates operate identically in this version, specifically with respect to levers? -Gotthard

== controlling at a distance ==

Does the lever need to be adjacent to the item it is controlling?

I want to put a floodgate at the end of a channel... [[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 02:52, 23 January 2008 (EST)
:No, it can be anywhere.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 02:57, 23 January 2008 (EST)

so, analog to the support-cave-in-trap how about building a nice water basin, say 4x4 for a start and covering it with grates, all connected to a lever - do grates have to be attached to a wall or floor on one side? I will try *broad grin* --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:45, 22 February 2008 (EST)

:Grates must be attached to a wall on one side, although you can put grates next to only grates and the dwarves will build them. Followed by their collapse. Like walls off bridges.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 18:31, 2 March 2008 (EST)

:Try building supports under them. SL's hand of armok uses supports under hatches in a similar way. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:37, 2 March 2008 (EST)

::Yeah, its not working like i wanted it too. The support thing will probably work. Or I will just leave a few walls in the basin..will try that later, busy right now. *watches goblin fly away in high arc* --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 19:52, 3 March 2008 (EST)

Regarding remote activation/control: I just spent 10 minutes berating my dwarves for completely ignoring two Pull Lever commands while vile forces of darkness approached, only to find that once I removed the Dwarves Stay Indoors restriction, they happily stepped up to the, uh, lever. The bridges are outside, the levers are on the level below. Has anyone else experienced this? [[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 17:49, 22 March 2008 (EST)

:Was the lever and/or any part of the path to the lever marked as "outside"? Use {{k|k}} to check. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 10:25, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::I checked and one of the levers was indeed marked "outside". In fact, there are several squares on my first underground level that are marked "outside". Is that because they are in the general area of the stairway leading outside? Thank you for the info. --[[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 18:42, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

:::When I quit reading all new forum messages and stayed at the wiki, I thought this would stop. [[Outside|Read The Wiki]]. Really. Read it. No, really, click on that link. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 19:57, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

== Megabeasts ==

I have noticed that a bridge that a hydra is standing on cannot be retracted {{version|0.27.176.38c}}. Has anyone else had similar experiences? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:15, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Titans cause the same problem. I conjecture that bridged can't be retracted while megabeasts are standing on them. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:08, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Also elephants, it seems. Possibly creature size. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:18, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

:Dragons cause the same problem. Are megabeasts supposed to all show up at once like this? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

== Proposed addition: Mechanism sequence ==

Given the problems that arise when using non magma-safe materials for mechanisms on floodgates, it is quite handy to know which mechanisms go where at the link selection (When for example you're really low on bauxite). 
From my experimentation with floodgate-lever, the first mechanism selected goes at the gate and the second one at the lever. I still haven't activated the contraption, but I'm assuming it's going to be ok. 
I'm also assuming the same is usefull for grates and bars. --[[User:Nonickch]], unsigned

:There is some lower-down text that tells you which mechanism goes in where. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 08:30, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

== Finding Links ==

Is it possible to determine what a lever is linked to without pulling it and checking to see what happens? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 00:43, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
:AFAIK the only way is to attempt to link the lever to a built object and notice which one if any is not available.
:eg if you have two bridges but only one is available to be linked to, it is because you are already linked to the other one.
:This would be a really good feature if it was implemented.
:[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 09:55, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

:I guess this is one good use for the new note-feature: Just use the same note for lever and target. --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 10:17, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

== Max number of links? ==

''Is there a limit to the amount of objects that can be linked to a lever?''--[[User:Thendash|Thendash]] 22:56, 19 September 2008 (EDT)

== Speeding the job of linking ==

Is it just me or does it not only take forever to finish the job of linking the lever to something, but also the dwarves treat it as extremely low priority? I've sometimes had to had an entire year for one of them to deign to hook it up. Incidentally, it is the Mechanics job that they use for that, right? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 15:48, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: I haven't noticed anything about the priority of the job, but yes, it take hella long to finish it. Some big linking job (eg. linking a large bridge to a remote lever) are virtually impossible to complete without an experienced mecanic... dwarves don't manage to end the job before feeling the urge to eat or drink or something, and all their work is lost when they return, ending in an infinite loop. [[User:Timst|Timst]] 19:47, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: Unless it's changed in the year since I've played, the mechanic must move the mechanisms to the lever and the "something", then spend time working on both the lever and the "something", all without being interrupted. Consider a 1-square stockpile next to both the lever and the something and choosing those unique mechanisms when you assign the linkage job. -- [[User:Qwip|Qwip]] 16:42, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

:: The catch, so far, is figuring out the "unique" mechanisms in the list. Short of making sure that that stockpile is the only one that carries Schist Mechanisms or something similar... Unlike the other "pick an item" lists, you can't specify a sort and there's nothing zooming you to the item that you will use. On a mildly unrelated note, I realized that part of the reason for my delay was that I was building large amounts of stone traps, so the nearest mechanism that was not already tied up in a trap building job was quote some distance away. I had this problem with the nearby stockpile as well, as it was also fairly close to the traps. It would be nice to even get a distance count on the mechanisms. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 11:48, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

:::When you choose the mechanism for the lever or trap, it does tell you its distance.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 12:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

== Inverting a Lever ==

I think I found a way to automatically invert the signal of a lever, say if you wanted one lever to open one door and close another. It involves a bridge and water, so it would not be instant. I haven't tested it yet. Anyone know if it would work?
<pre>Side view: (Sorry, I realize this isn't the standard tileset, but my text editor doesn't have them all.)
#####
#_~@W
##D##

W - Water source (Under at least 7/7 pressure)
D - Water drain
_ - Pressure plate, set to activate under water of depth 4-7
@ - Hinge of a raisable bridge, connected to the main lever (offscreen)
~ - Bridge over channel
# - Solid rock</pre>
When the main lever is OFF, the bridge is down. It allows water to flow past its hinge, and it covers the drain. Water fills the room, triggering the plate, which sends an ON signal. 
When the main lever is ON, the bridge raises. The hinge blocks water from flowing in, and the uncovered drain empties the room. The plate detriggers, sending OFF. 
WARNING: The drain must not fill! If it does, you wont be able to get into the room to connect more mechanisms to the plate.
Option: If your water source is infinite, make your drain a hallway, at least 3 long, with a raising bridge that comes down from the far end. When the main lever is activated, the hallway floods. Shortly afterwards, the plate detriggers. After a short delay, the bridge slams down, destroying the water. 
--17:52, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

: Isn't it simpler to build two levers? Especially considering the pressure plate takes as many mechanisms? I don't really understand what you are trying to accomplish here.
:--[[User:MagicGuigz|MagicGuigz]] 17:34, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

::If you want a single action to do some "on" actions and some "off" actions - e.g. if from a stylistic point of view you want to have a single "activate outer defenses" lever that raises bridges over moats and puts down bridges blocking catapults.
::--[[User:Random832|Random832]] 19:35, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

::: It's more than stylistic. My designs are complex systems, created on the assumption that only certain combinations of states are possible - that when ''this'' bridge is down, ''that'' bridge is always up, and that when ''this'' floodgate is open, ''that'' door is always closed. If I allow things to enter a condition I hadn't planned for - either because I forgot to throw both leavers, or the dwarf died between them, or whatever - there is literally no telling what would happen. It could drop civilians into a line of fire, or flood the fortress, or expose the marksdwarves to the enemy without also releasing their infantry guards.
:::--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 16:08, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Magma

2008-10-16T19:49:29Z

Macdjord: /* Mechanisms on Non-Floodgates */

40d Talk:Trading

2008-10-16T19:43:09Z

Macdjord:

== Consolidation of Trading, Trade Depot, Caravans, and Wagon ==

This needs wikification with some amounts of rewriting. I will give it a go. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 06:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Yea thanks, this is my first try at a wiki-page. sorry if it was crappy... --[[User:CombatWombat|CombatWombat]] 06:42, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Nah, there's no such thing as a crappy wiki edit, when its got content in it. Just remember to be bold, otherwise there would be nothing here. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 07:29, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Well this thread's a little old, but I re-wrote and consolidated some more information on this page. There was also some discussion of this on [[Talk:Caravan#Merge_this_into_Trading]]. If you don't approve, please don't just revert it, I organized and cleaned up a lot of the scattered info, so at the very least it should be split from where it is now on the Trading page to where it should ultimately go. --[[User:Marble Dice|Marble Dice]] 02:48, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

This article needs to be seperated. We dont find crafting and the craftdwarf workshop in the same article and the same goes here too. Trading is how to trade and what it means in this game. Trade depot is a construct. An encyclopedia defines things and as such we should define them seperately. It all needs to be organized as well. The flow chart is undefined and in the wrong section, etc.
Ill move some stuff around and work to clean some up now but nothing to radical at the moment... what do you think?
[[User:Iluziat|Iluziat]] 07:03, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

== Extraction from different articles ==

All the information on trading seems quite scattered now (Trade depot, Caravan, Dwarf, Elf, Human etc), and as most stuff is well written I think we should merge the trade sections to this one page and leave behind only refecences. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 08:29, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:Looking good, is there a 'your first caravan'-type tutorial anywhere we could link to? Something with advice on the sort of goods to prepare and what to buy for the first winter, with new players in mind. I'll try and find one somewhere. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, linked to the trade section in the new player guide. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::Done++ Someone else finish merging the information from Caravans into the page. Make sure to get that awesome Elf trader image. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 12:10, 28 January 2008 (EST)

== Haulers? ==
In my experience the "bring item to depot" tasks were performed by any dwarf, even without any hauling labors enabled. Can also be my imagination. I cannot check it for now, so, anyone, please verify.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:That's correct, as many times my pure crafters will stop crafting to haul goods to the depot, despite having only one or two production labors enabled. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:41, 28 January 2008 (EST)
::Is this similar to plant gathering where even non-working nobles and children will do it, or is it limted to any regular dwarf regardless of labour? --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 19:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:::Yes, nobles and children will haul stuff to the depot. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== Moving goods on afterwards ==

To get things ''out'' of the depot.... do I have to order them removed while the caravan is still around?
I have starving dwarves... and food going rotten in the depot![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)
:AFAIK, no. in my experience, anything bought is treated as like it's just lying there, not being traded.
Well, yes and no. Once trading is finished dwarves will start bringing the bought goods in while the caravan still is there. But you cant 'order' them to per se ;) Your own stuff that wasnt sold however will remain in depot till the caravan leaves. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 18:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Unless you go back into the {{k|g}}oods menu at the Depot and unmark them for trading. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 04:25, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I've a question in the same vein: I just traded for a truckload of goods, but the traders didn't even leave them in the depot! They just carried my goods out with them. Were my dwarves supposed to carry all of the goods back earlier? --[[User:Gh3yz0r|Gh3yz0r]] 14:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)

==Duplicate Page?==
The page "Caravan" has very similar information, though this "trading" page seems more complete.[Samyotix]

== culling on mandates ==

what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)
:I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)

== "everything is ruined now" ==
I just accidentally tried to trade the elves a wooden bin full of stone goods. Now ALL my stone goods, including ones not actually in that bin, are unacceptable. I ended up just seizing the rope I needed, but I'd like to know if this is a glitch, or if I just made them too angry to trade. —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shadow archmagi|Shadow archmagi]] ([[User talk:Shadow archmagi|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Shadow archmagi|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}
:It's not a glitch. Elves refuse to trade at all after you give them even a single wood or animal product. After you do that the trade option is locked until they come back to trade next year. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:52, 27 February 2008 (EST)
:The wooden bin told the elves you hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate animals. Don't trade dead trees or dead animal parts to elves. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 13:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

==Depot Access==
Not a single square on my map is accessible by the caravan. What should i do? --[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

EDIT: My bad. It seems that it shows every square as inaccessible if the depot is not fully constructed--[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading Margins ==
In regards to this submission:
"If you have a somewhat experienced broker or you already raised the traiders mood to pleased or above you can usually trade with marginal profit for them and you can also safely ignore their counteroffers, offering the same trade a second time, successfully."

You do realize that when they make a counteroffer they automatically add those counteroffer goods to the pot, right? Just making sure. Are you saying you go back through and remove each item their counteroffer added to your side of the deal? Seems much simpler to just stick to the ~50% rule of thumb, especially at the beginning with low skills and again once you reach the point of having so many trade goods that you can easily buy everything you need from each caravan with plenty of goods left over. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 14:55, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
: Yes, exactly. Whenever i get a counteroffer I remove all items from the list they added until their profit is back to what i deem fit, sometimes leaving a low value item, say, 50☼, they chose, if I wanted to trade it anyway. Since this is not a beginners guide page, I think it's wrong to advise people to a 50% profit margin that is much higher than necessary. Once the traders are happy, they will even agree to trading an anvil for an anvil. I tested this extensively because usually i want them to leave early and thus try to make them angry. Almost impossible. We could however add smth about the (suspected) advantages of having high export totals like bigger caravans, more immigrants, arrival of king. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 06:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
::The 50% rule of thumb is a good starting point either way. "Advanced" page or not, before I posted that, there was no guidance on what profit margin the visiting traders would generally accept, so that people were left to find out the hard way.
::Going back through a long list of your trade goods to hunt down and remove the items which the visiting trader added to the offer seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, unless you just have very few trade goods or a really tight budget at your fortress.
::As for being able to get away with lower margins once the trader is happy, that is definitely useful knowledge and could be expanded upon. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 12:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

There is no way to refuse a counter-offer, is there? The only option is to hit {{k|Enter}}, and the "goods are added to the pot" as you say ... correct? --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 09:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

:Correct, however, you're free to simply remove the additionally requested items and re-offer. In the case of a new trader in his first few trade sessions, this will likely work, as he gained experience (probably a LOT) just by offering. Even if it doesn't, as long as you don't repeat it many times (4+ I'd say) then there's no real risk of driving them off. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:16, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

::I find it easiest to commence one dwarf with novice valuer that way you already know prices... within the first trading I can usually get some items at straight trade (0% profit) maybe it depends on civilisation demands.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:14, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:::If you want a trade to succeed just make sure the trader gets 100-1000* profit. Almost every trade I made with this method was accepted. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:09, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

== Goblins butchering my caravans. ==

Every time I trade with the caravans, a goblin ambush comes and the merchants are all killed. Ive taken new measures to prevent this, but will merchants come back to trade? and what effect does their death have? —Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wafl|Wafl]] ([[User talk:Wafl|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Wafl|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}

My caravans get shot up by goblins all the time. Then you get to loot their stuff. The caravans always seem to come back next year. [[User:Ripheus|Ripheus]] 22:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== Trading flowchart ==

Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)

Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right
{|cellpadding="2" border="1"
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2| Make or obtain goods to trade || Build Depot ({{K|b}} - {{K|D}})
|-
| Ensure Depot is accessible ({{K|D}})
Check green area reaches edge of map
|-
| colspan=3 | Wait until a caravan arrives on the map
"A--- caravan from --- has arrived."
|-
| Set goods to be traded ({{K|q}} - {{K|g}}) || Request a trader ({{K|q}} - {{K|r}}) || Wait for caravan to reach the depot
"Merchants have arrived and are unloading their goods"
|-
| Wait for goods to be hauled || Wait for the trader to finish their other tasks and go to the depot || Wait for the rest of the caravan to reach the depot and be unloaded
|-
| colspan=3 | Begin actual trading ({{K|q}} - {{K|t}})
|}

Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... [[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]]

:Ask and ye shall receive
{|cellspacing=0 align=center
|-
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|width=50|
|width=1|
|width=50|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Arrive at fortress location
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Create Goods
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Build Depot
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Check Depot is accessible
|-
|colspan=4|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|colspan=4 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|colspan=2|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Set goods to be traded
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan to arrive at depot and merchants to finish unloading
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for goods to be hauled
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Request the trader at the depot and turn off his other labours
|-
|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|colspan=5|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
|-
|
|colspan=7 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=4 height=20 width=3|
|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;"|
|-
|colspan=3|
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Trade
|}
You'll note I shifted the location of requesting trader --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
:The above was the first draft. You can access the current version at [[Trading/Flowchart]]. Anyway, what I wanted to say was '''Re: Adeptable's changes'''
:I don't think the third branch is neccesary. For one, it makes it seem too wide, and secondary it implies that turning off the trader's labours ''all the time'' means that trading will happen faster - almost as if it will make merchants arrive more often. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 23:36, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

== Offerings ==

Can anyone expound on the function of {{K|o}}ffering goods as gifts to traders? I tried giving the elves about 1000 worth of tchotchkes, and the next year they showed up with more goods than I've ever seen -- lots of caged animals, whereas I usually get very few, and so on. However, other times I gave them more and it seemed nothing changed. [[User:Anydwarf|Anydwarf]] 12:01, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Gifts to the traders (and large trading profits) should increase the number of traders / wagons you get the following year, so they'll bring more stuff to trade. AFAIK no-one knows about the numbers for sure though. [[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Add hint: "Buy everything ... in case you get a strange mood"? ==

Personally I've found it very useful to do this:

When traders arrive,
a) optionally check stocks.
b) Buy everything you can't make or harvest in your own fort.
c) In the diplomat meeting, order everything you can't make or harvest.

To be specific: Thread, Silk, cloth, metal bars (anything else?).

The reason:
a) Dwarves sometimes demand items out of some metal or alloy they like.
b) Dwarves who are possessed or get a strange mood will sometimes demand silk or cloth.

Players who proactively (harr!) seek to stock materials for possible moods will IMO have much less of a problem with dwarves going insane from moods. However I couldn't figure out where (or if) I should insert that, so I'll just add this idea (adding a hint: buy everything you don't have) to the discussion.

Also, as far as I know, possessed/moody dwarves in the current version (27.176.38c) do not demand specific items. Rather, they want a) any metal bar b) any metal ore c) Silk d) Cloth e) wood f) raw gem g) any stone ... that was it, right?. So probably such a hint could read something like:

"NOTE: If your fortress cannot harvest silk, it would be useful to order some from the caravans. If you do not have a cloth industry yet, maybe order some cloth as well. Having a small stock of materials which you are not actively using in your economy - e.g. GCS silk - will increase the likelihood of your fortress gaining an artifact from any mood or possession."
[[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Clear the perimeter? ==

Is clearing the entire perimeter of the map really necessary? While my depot has been accessible at all, the caravan has '''always''' appeared at a point with access to the depot. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
:What the article says is:
:#Caravans enter the map from a random direction which does not coincide with the relative direction of the originating civilization,
:#they may appear from different directions or z-levels each year
:#they cannot use stairs
:#they may leave without trading if it takes too long to reach the trade depot
:With the above points in mind:
:#In order to guarantee perfect, permanent wagon accessibility, a three tile path must be cleared around the entire perimeter of the map, with at least one joining path from the border to the trade depot. Any parts of this path system which have grass must be paved with floor tiles, bridges, or roads to prevent trees from growing. Ramps must be used to adjust z-level elevation.

I have certainly had a depot accessible to the southern border, then had the human merchants only turn up with mules because they were approaching from a different direction.

The recommendations are how to ensure the human wagons turn up every summer (it also helps to remember to have your drawbridge down as soon as summer commences!) If you are not so concerned about human merchants then ignore the advice. If you don't have enough dwarf-power then ignore the advice. Some of it only needs to be done once (ie: adjusting slopes), and some of it just gives you more territory to consider for defending from invaders (being open to merchants also opens you to invaders).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:33, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

==Seizing goods==
"It is worth noting that in the Mac port (untested for other ports), you can simply remove the depot that the merchants are camped out on to recieve all their goods."

I can confirm that this also works in the PC version.[[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 14:07, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Empty caravans ==

human, elf, and dwarf caravans bringing me nothing.
is it possible to have a depot too full? --[[User:Eerr|Eerr]] 07:30, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:In recent versions of the game I've noticed that traders, after their initial visit, will only bring what was mentioned in your previous trade agreement with them. In earlier versions they'd bring all sorts of tat along too. Did you perhaps not request any goods for import? I don't imagine this could affect the Elves as well though. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 08:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

::Prior to the latest group of releases, I'd been getting empty caravans for a LONG time, Elves and Humans alike, and occasionally even the Dwarves. Hasn't happened to me in the e release yet though (hadn't spent too much time on the other releases). --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:13, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

== starvation ==

it must be because they brought food to my starving settlement
(dwarves will run out and get food straight from the caravan)

== Added a small bit. ==

I quickly changed the section about the possible exploit of deleting a trade depot from Mac-only-bug to an across the board phenomenon.

== Caravan at Inaccessible Depot ==

I assume it is related to the 3 wide path only showing as 1 green square, but the caravan has stopped at a trade depot that is listed as inaccessible. Does this mean that some trade depots will show bad with SHIFT-D but are actually okay? --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 21:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

:The three-wide path showing only one green square is, to my knowledge, correct. That green is the center of the path, along which the center of the wagon must align with to fit within the three-wide path. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 23:14, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

::Thanks. It'd be nice then if the Shift-D showed that as a caravan accessible depot then. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 01:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Correction: It does, there was a boulder in the way that I did not see. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 22:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

== 50% profit rule ==

This really, REALLY needs to be made clearer in the game. There's nothing wrong with the trader telling us how much profit he'd expect from our goods! I've got tens of thousands worth of goods that I haven't sold for two years straight because the bloody traders wouldn't tell me how much they want, and I didn't find the 50% rule buried in this article until just now! --[[User:Theory|Theory]] 09:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:It's hardly 'buried' in the article, it's certainly not a rule, and it is made pretty clear in the game. I'm not just trying to be contrary; let me explain: A skilled broker can routinely trade with only a thirty or twenty percent profit, even down to ten percent if the merchant is in a good mood. If the merchant wants more profit, he will either put forth a counter-offer or say "With your trade goods such as they are, I can't possibly imagine you getting all of those items." This seems like a pretty clear indication that he wants a bigger margin. As to its place in the article: a full half of the section titled "Trading" details the fifty percent suggestion. If you think it deserves increased prominence, I encourage you to edit it yourself. Them's my six cents. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 17:16, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

:: afaik, traders will accept ''any'' profit, as long as they're not annoyed and also as long as you're not trying to buy 'high-tech' items like steel anvils or bars, with 'low-tech' items such as poorly crafted pieces of stone, bone etc [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 17:58, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Elves and dead stuff==

it seems elves will make counter-offers for dead stuff, like totems, bone and shell crafts... needs to be fixed imo [[User:Twiggie|Twiggie]] 18:00, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

==Adamantium in trade window==

I've just noticed that Adamantine strands appear in my trade window in purple text despite them not being present at the depot and marked for trade. I'm fairly sure that this is something to do with mandates from the nobles (my broker has forbade the export of adamantine) but I can't find any mention of this on the Wiki, any thoughts? [[User:Extar|Extar]] 21:55, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
I did a bit more testing and the purple text is clearly to do with export bans, I'll add it to the mandate page. [[User:Extar|Extar]] 22:02, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

==They are selling dead animals?!==

I don't know if this is because my fortress is in the freezing tundra, but all caravans offer me cages with dead, butcherable corpses inside. I don't complain about this: There's no additional charge for them, and so I get free meat, fat, skins and bones. Does this happen in other biomes, too? --[[User:Doub|Doub]] 09:43, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Carvan over ? ==
Can someone please help me, I need to know if caravans can travel over traps in the latest version, and also if the people will get caught in them and die, and could whoever tests this please do it with all types of traps, not just one. Thank you in advance. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 15:57, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
:They have no problems with stone traps, cage traps, or weapon traps in my experience. :) Until the King started requesting them before he'd show up, I didn't bother with roads. I just paved the way to the edge with traps. One catch is that creatures who fall unconscious (and maybe randomly some dogs) will get caught in the traps. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 19:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

== Inacessable Depot ==
What happens if a caravan arrives and you have no accessible depot at all? Do they pass you by? Do they wait around offscreen to give you a chance to build or expose one? My depot is underground, accessible only by a drawbridged path. I'd prefer to keep the bridge up (which means ''no'' access, foot or wagon), until I need it, but I don't want to miss a caravan. 
Also, what happens if, after the traders enter the map, the depot they are heading to becomes inaccessible? I could put a sacrificial depot outside to draw them in, then seal it up after opening my secure depot.--[[User:Macdjord|Macdjord]] 15:43, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Site finder

2008-10-09T16:39:43Z

Macdjord: /* Bauxite */

40d Talk:Site finder

2008-10-08T19:01:48Z

Macdjord:

40d Talk:Magma

2008-10-07T21:11:23Z

Macdjord:

Are you certain that steel is a requirement for metals in contact with magma? This info conflicts with the [[Magma smelter]] article, which state that using [[Fire-safe materials]] is enough. Don't have a fort with magma yet, but could someone check which one is correct?[[User:Thexor|Thexor]] 19:23, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
:If i disable temperature can my dwarfs swim through the magma unharmed? Will it still cause water to steam? [[User:Diabl0658|Diabl0658]] 22:28, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

Does the type of rock around the mountainous areas hint at magma? If you check out [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_rocks#Naming this article] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igneous_rock#Mineralogical_classification this site] list a bunch of common volcanic rocks: Granite, Rhyolite, Diorite, Andesite, Gabbro, Basalt, Peridotite and Komatite. Perhaps some clues as to where to find magma?
:It may be possible to find magma vents by searching for extrusive igneous rocks (such as basalt, felsite, rhyolite and andesite), but continental shelves and deep earth are just naturally made of intrusive igneous rock (such as granite, diorite and gabbro). It's generally indicative of rock that has been pushed up to the surface (or erosion has withered the rock down), and not a volcano.
::So areas with surface igneous rocks such as basalt, felsite, rhyolite and andesite have a high chance of finding a source of magma below the surface? I'd like to know if it's entirely random or if there is some order or pattern to it. [[User:Schm0|Schm0]] 08:38, 5 November 2007 (EST)

On a completely different topic: I keep setting up on magma vents but not actually having a magma chamber visible. I assumed one problem was the lack of a border on my plot (so somehow the volcano was actually outside my plot), but even after making it bigger there was still no magma (...but it did have a fancy cave)...This has happened the last 4 times I've tried to start on a volcano, and the world regenerating takes quite a while for ~10 named volcanoes, and then all of the livable ones don't actually have magma.--[[User:UltimaGecko|UltimaGecko]] 16:50, 3 November 2007 (EDT)
:You might try using reveal.exe to see if the volcano is underground. I just built on a site with a volcano which was not visible from the surface, and used reveal to make sure I hadn't lost my mind (then I killed DF and restarted it so I wouldn't still have the map revealed) - The volcano was entirely underground, covered by layer(s) of rock. I've also added a note to the article saying that it is possible to find a volcano which is visible on the starting screen but not from the surface on-site.--[[User:SL|SL]] 21:54, 7 November 2007 (EST)
::I think this is related to the temperature of the area. I've got a map with a magma vent in the middle of a glacier. There was no surface magma, but there was a nice flat, round patch of obsidian surrounded by ice. After digging down three levels through this "cap", I hit live magma. It's actually a nice setup, as I've basically set up a small fort *in* the cap--basically my dwarves are living in the mouth of the volcano, with the basement level dedicated to magma smelters, forges, glass furnaces, etc. --[[User:RedKing|RedKing]] 04:26, 9 November 2007 (EST)

== Magmapool/pipe section ==
Zara, you recently added some info about all magma pipes having cliffs over them -- this is incorrect. I've played a very large number of magma pipe maps, and very often they are completely exposed to the air. I've also removed the line about them being "as small as two z-levels!", because it needs better phrasing. I may fix it later. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 22:39, 26 February 2008 (EST)

:in the meantime I had figured that out, too. But what is the difference between a magma pipe and a volcano, then? {{unsigned|Zara}}

::As far as I know, the distinction comes down to whether it reaches the surface. If so, some would then call it a volcano rather than a magma pipe. I believe that magma pipes which reach the surface (or volcanoes, if you will) are the only ones which actually show up on the embark map, while underground magma pipes and magma pools do not (unless you use the Regional Prospector tool). --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 23:07, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:::No, similar to Moonanibe,I've played on several maps where, on the embark screen, the magma pipe was only visible using regional prospector. However, as soon as I took a look at the place, I found the magma partly (or completely) exposed on the surface. [[User:Zara|Zara]] 01:59, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

== Added new section ==
I added a section regarding "Built objects vs. Magma". I think it's absolutely vital we establish what does and doesn't melt in magma, in a clean list. There are quite a few things that could be added to that list (Constructed floors for one) so please, do add to it. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 17:31, 18 February 2008 (EST)
:Have you tested the bridges? I conjecture that all buildings and constructions without mechanisms are perfectly fine with magma contact. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 10:37, 19 February 2008 (EST)
:: The bridges part was cut from another section of the article and moved in there. Since it was already here, I assumed it was accurate. I haven't actually checked myself. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 16:54, 19 February 2008 (EST)
:I will verify bridges one way or the other. I'm pretty sure they cant melt, though. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:03, 19 February 2008 (EST)
::they dont melt, as they arent actually within the magma. that was copied over from the 2d wiki and nobody removed it -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 22:29, 19 February 2008 (EST)
::: I noticed you removed the line about bridges. It seems silly not to mention them at all, so I've written up a line about them working no matter what the material and stuck it in. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 23:12, 19 February 2008 (EST)
::::yea they should definately be mentioned, wasnt thinking when i removed it completely(recovering from a bad cold and brain is still a bit foggy) -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 00:49, 20 February 2008 (EST)
Tested. Non-magmaiproof bridges -over- magma are fine. Non-magma-proof submerged in magma will melt. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:39, 21 February 2008 (EST)
: Interesting. I'll edit the article to say as much. [[User:MOOMANiBE|MOOMANiBE]] 15:30, 21 February 2008 (EST)
This is what I've found: ANY Construction is safe from magma (even wooden ones. Walls, stairs, fortifications, etc). Any building is unaffected by magma if the magma doesn't occupy the same tile as the building. Example: a door is safe if it's closed, even if it's made of non-safe rock or wood. If you lock it open with a mechanism, or if it's jammed, then the magma interacts with the components, burning/melting them if they can't stand the heat. A pump made of wood or any other material is also safe, as long as the magma doesn't flow *over* it. Since the "out" side acts as a wall, if it's correctly isolated from the magma it won't get damaged and will pump the magma without any trouble. --[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 01:41, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Anyone clear on Vertical Bars in magma? I am attempting to keep imps and such from moving through my magma feeding tunnel and was curious if anyone had any good solutions to this problem. --[[User:Stalinbulldog|Stalinbulldog]] 16:23, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

:I just use a bauxite wall grate, it works fine for me. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 01:02, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
:: Ah, thank you, I just wanted to be sure they didn't melt regardless --[[User:Stalinbulldog|Stalinbulldog]] 02:32, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 
I made a few tests with magma and buildings/constructions and I can confirm some known results and I can provide a few new aspects. Constructions (b->C) are magma safe (walls, floors, stairs, others not tested). No matter what the material is.
*<s>bridges build with bauxite *rocks* are not magma safe (bauxite mechanism or not)</s>
*bridges build with bauxite *blocks* are magma safe (test with mechanism is pending)
*bridges build with steel bars are magma safe (test with mechanism is pending)
Open test: bridge with blocks considered as not magma safe.
 [[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:14, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
::I'm sorry, I made a mistake. The bridges build with bauxite rocks were previously connected with a lever. Unfortunately the mechanism is not removed from the bridge when you remove the lever. Well, at least it seems that the rules for magma safe materials are valid for bridges. With one exception: raised bridges can contain any mechanism, only when magma flows over the bridge it is destroyed.--[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 13:18, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== Replenishing Magma ==

Since magma replenishes now, I've rewritten that snippet from the article. If I've missed something(a kind of magma not regenerating, though this always worked for me on several maps), feel free to correct things. --[[User:Romantic Warrior|Romantic Warrior]] 15:47, 18 February 2008 (EST).

I have a very good feeling that the replenishing magma is just "pressurized" magma. I haven't tested fully, but i have poured water over a magma pipe and re-mined it, and in that case the magma flow was upwards. --[[User:Sphexx|Sphexx]] 03:49, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

== Temperature ==

Does magma increase the temperature of things around it? Can it be used to melt ice? --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 20:26, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

:I'm not sure how the temperature calculations are done, but I CAN tell you that magma will melt nearby ice. Check out http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-153-meltingwateronglacier to see it in action. [[User:Zaranthan|Zaranthan]] 15:23, 26 January 2008 (EST)

::It should be a flow, just like the magma itself. One of the other visible results is warm stone. The same can probably be said for water and damp stone as well. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 17:01, 26 January 2008 (EST)

==Flow?==

I have a magma pipe (pit) in my current fortress... I breached the pipe from the lowest level because of the diagonal bug when I discovered it, and it filled some long exploratory shafts. Since then, the top magma layer is down to 5/7 and 6/7 running all over the surface. After a little while, it's easy to see that magma act curiously: instead of bouncing from wall to wall like real water physics, in my game the 5/7 (the flow) seems to all move in the same direction at the same time. The direction change often, and seem to change randomly. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 22:43, 26 November 2007 (EST)

There is another way to stop a flow of magma that's moving through a tunnel. You can go one z-level higher, dig to a spot above the magma-filled tunnel, then build a channel above where the magma is flowing and assign it as a Pond Zone. So long as you have buckets and a viable Water Source zone, a dwarf will come along and drop water on the magma, instantly turning it into obsidian and blocking the tunnel. --[[User:Stromko]] January 6th, 2007
: I've tried this - it rarely works. Usually you just destroy 1/7 of the magma per bucket, along with the water from the bucket, and nothing turns to obsidian. You need to hit it with larger quantities of water at once to get reliable results. --[[User:SL|SL]] 10:35, 6 January 2008 (EST)
::Actually, you have to hit it from two levels up. Just one won't do anything.--[[User:Demosthenes|Demosthenes]] 17:07, 18 February 2008 (EST)

==Criteria for Magma Buildings==

Is there a special condition that must be met before Magma Smelters/Forges/Furnaces and so on will appear on the build menus? I have a magma pit and some channels over it so that I can access it for magma, but I cannot build any magma-using buildings. - [[User:Confused Rat|Confused Rat]]

:Magma furnaces and forges need a hole somewhere on the ground where they are built. This is to allow the furnace/forge to take the heat from the magma as they are used. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 19:43, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:What he means is that the magma furnaces don't even appear in the build menu. This is because you haven't discovered magma through natural means. The only way this can happen is if you used reveal to find the magma. You'll have to use the [[Utilities#Enable_Magma_Buildings|Enable Magma Buildings]] utility to make them appear. --[[User:Valdemar|Valdemar]] 20:03, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:Reclaimed fortresses may be bugged. If you reclaimed you fortress you probably can't do anything with it without 3rd party programs (like one mentioned above). Magma in [[pit]]s isn't enough to allow magma buildings. You need to discover true magma pipe and get pop-up informing about this. --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 08:37, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

== Infinity Generators? ==

Because magma is currently a finite resource, would it be a good idea to add how to make an infinity generator as workarround untill Toady gives us some more of the stuff?—Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Highlord Asehujiko|Highlord Asehujiko]] ([[User talk:Highlord Asehujiko|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Highlord Asehujiko|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}
:Not on the main article as it would easily be considered cheating. In here, or the [[cheating]] article itself would be fine, the latter probably more appropriate as it could be applied to water as well for those scorching maps. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 19:16, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::Magma regenerates in most cases, which pretty much means it's infinite. --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 19:19, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

== Lava vs. Magma ==

I hadn't noticed it until just now, but both Lava and Magma occur in the game. I haven't seen this fact referenced in the wiki. Magma is a fluid which occurs in Magma Pipes, and in areas directly connected to Magma Pipes. Lava appears to occur in disconnected areas. I'm not sure what happens if you reconnect. If you use {{k|k}} to view a square, you'll see either Magma or Lava depths given. I'm not clear on what difference there is between the two fluids. --[[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 02:58, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

:There is none, just the name. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 10:30, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::both in df, and irl, molten rock in open air is called lava, while subterranean is called magma -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 15:40, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::: Ah, so magma which is ''Outside'' is lava. Cool. I guess my disjoint areas are all also outside :) I suppose we ought to mention this somewhere on the page? --[[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 19:19, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

== Magma vs puppy? ==

I have encountered an interesting glitch. I have 2 puppies and a kitten in magma that aren't dying, and yes I have temperature setting on. http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-570-magmavspuppy

For those interested in trying to recreate it, I believe it has to do with designating the animal to slaughter while trying to throw it into a pit. A few of my dwarves were having pathing errors to try and slaughter them when I noticed the 3 invulnerable pests. After saving and reloading, the critters were insta-gibbed.
--[[User:Sphexx|Sphexx]] 04:59, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

== Chasm Confusion ==

"The minerals directly adjacent to the magma vent will also be immediately visible, even at the lowest level of the map, which can give some hints about where to prospect for ores."

Magma, at least in my experience, has always been surrounded only by Obsidian, as a result you cannot get any kind of insight as to the surrounding minerals, this differs from a chasm where the veins coming up to a chasm are directly reflected in the walls.

--[[User:Stalinbulldog|Stalinbulldog]] 04:18, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
:volcanoes and magmapipes can form large "chasms" above them, though it depends on how rocky the map is

== gruesome accident in reall really older 2d version ==

beware wooden floodgates
not only do they burn(as I planned)
but i scattered magma all around the room
it rolled around quickly in all directions, flooding the tunnels, burning miners, smelters, war dogs and puppies alike without remorse.
it has thus far filled the entire message screen with " someone" or "something" has burned to death
it appears to gain mass from creeping down hallways! oh god...
60 deaths, at least 25 dwarves and 15 puppies22:08, 28 July 2008 (EDT)[[User:Eerr|Eerr]]

== Magma cooling? ==

Ive noticed at a 1/7 depth, the magma seems to cool and go away. v40d --[[User:OmegaX|OmegaX]] 17:28, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

: That is probably what the author meant by "Magma that is only 1 deep "evaporates" over time." [[User:MagicGuigz|MagicGuigz]] 19:58, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

== Mechanisms on Non-Floodgates ==

I want to power my underground smelting operations with magma, so I'm digging a tunnel into the side of a magma pipe. I don't want magma creatures coming in that way, so I need a set of [[bars]] across it. However, once I set up the bars, I need to open them to get a miner past and cut the last bit of stone and open the tunnel to the magma. I was going to just attach the bars to a level, but the question of what to use for the [[mechanism]] is bugging me. I don't want to waste my precious imported [[Bauxite]] on the mechanism, and once it closes behind the miner it never need to open again so it's fine it it melts, but not if the melting mechanism will cause the bars to deconstruct! Anyone know what happens to things other than floodgates when their mechanisms get melted off?
--17:11, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Alcohol

2008-10-07T20:59:09Z

Macdjord:

What kind of damage do explosions do? I've searched the raw files but can't find it. I'd either have to guess it's concussive (like a cave in) or fire (not burn) damage. --[[User:Heliopios|Heliopios]] 09:22, 4 December 2007 (EST)

:Yeah, someone should probably put in a part talking about explosions in this article. Notably how to use them as weapons. I currently have no idea.--[[User:Smoking Gnu|Smoking Gnu]] 16:41, 5 December 2007 (EST)

::I tried some experiments with alcohol and magma, but the booze just evaporated instead of exploding. Then the fire imps came.--[[User:Smoking Gnu|Smoking Gnu]] 16:10, 16 December 2007 (EST)

:::If this is true, explosions might be triggered only by fire and not temperature. Magma isn't actually on fire, it just has a tendency to ignite items whose ignition point is lower than the temperature of magma (i.e. most of 'em). If the booze boils first, it might not ignite. Though alcohol gas would create a pretty hefty explosion once you did have a spark... Great, now I have the urge to research how combustion actually works in the real world, given that certain materials might be heated to a temperature they'd burn at without igniting to oxidize. --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 13:33, 28 December 2007 (EST)

:::: I think I know how to make a booze bomb. You need a single tile full of magma, on a remote hatch. Directly under that is a set of floor bars, over an empty pit. The barrels are set up on the tiles around the bars. When you open the hatch, the magma drops, making a one-shot lava waterfall. This [[Magma#Similarities|creates magma mist]], which is [[Magma#Differences|known to burn things]]. I haven't tried this yet. Can anyone verify? --16:59, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

== Is Cooked Booze still a drink? ==

Does eating cooked booze still count as alcohol intake for happiness, work speed, etc.? It seems to quench thirst and hunger simultaneously. --[[User:HotSake|HotSake]] 20:15, 12 December 2007 (EST)
:If this is true, I'm cooking all of my booze right now.--[[User:Heliopios|Heliopios]] 21:11, 12 December 2007 (EST)
::I'm very interested in this as well. I always thought cooking booze was sort of a 'bad' thing because then the dwarves would have nothing to drink. [[User:Sinoth|sinoth]] 09:31, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:::Keep a surplus of drinks on hand (about 10x as many drinks as you have dwarves, as I posted below). However, don't hesitate to cook anything beyond that. Since you get 5x as many meals out of ''plants->booze->cooked booze'' as you do out of just plants, more of your plant production can be reserved for brewing instead of eating. Furthermore, big stacks of prepared meals are too big to fit in barrels (always make "lavish meals" for maximum stack size), and by brewing all your plants, you'll empty all your plant barrels, allowing you to store even more booze in them.
:::The availability of barrels is the biggest constraint on your food and booze production.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 19:55, 11 January 2008 (EST)

::Oh, um, no, cooked booze does not quench thirst.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:10, 11 January 2008 (EST)

== Fastest Growing Beer Crop? ==

So, anyone know offhand what's the fastest crop to grow if you want to grow a LOT of alcohol really quickly? I'm mostly interested in it for cooking, so it doesn't really have to match a dwarf's favorite beer or anything. [[User:KiTA|KiTA]] 03:31, 28 December 2007 (EST)
:Plump helmets.--[[User:Heliopios|Heliopios]] 04:23, 28 December 2007 (EST)
:Actually, pig tails are just as fast, but yes, plump helmets are good too. It helps to grow 2 kinds though, so you can cook one kind and leave another for drinking. --[[User:Valdemar|Valdemar]] 10:20, 28 December 2007 (EST)

==How much do I need? ==
Strange that this question isn't even mentioned sideways. How much will ''get me by'' vs ''make the stumpies happy''? [[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 08:32, 11 January 2008 (EST)

== Where's the alcohol / food mod? ==
I think there should be a link to these mods at the bottom of this page, under 'see also', or something, I'm struggling to find them. --[[User:Markavian|Markavian]]
:that would go in the mods section, not the standard area of the wiki --[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 15:36, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

40d Talk:Lever

2008-10-01T21:52:48Z

Macdjord: