Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Administrative intervention against vandalism

2021-04-05T20:35:15Z

Sriefmadsakzro:

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! colspan="2" style="border: 1px solid #0088CC; font-weight:bold; background-color: #8ce; padding-left: 1em; padding-right: 1em; border-top-left-radius:4px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:4px; -webkit-border-top-left-radius:4px; border-bottom-right-radius:4px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:4px; -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius:4px;" |'''Instructions'''
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#Reported edits must constitute vandalism.
#Link to both an example of the user's vandalism (the revision, not the current page — you can use the "Permanent link") and the user's talk page (which is included with {{tl|User}}).
#Add new reports to the top of the list. Use format: <nowiki>#Reporting user {{User|Briess}} for edits [link], [link] and [link] ~~~~ </nowiki>
#Please remember to sign the report with <code>~~</code><code>~~</code>
#If a report has remained here for more than 24 hours and no action has been taken, please leave a message on an [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=sysop&limit=50 admin's] talk page.
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==Reports==

* Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/89.187.170.169|89.187.170.169]] for inserting spam into [[Utility:Dwarf_Therapist/Addons_Repository]].
* Reporting...vandalism-adjecent shenanigans from an anon, as expected {{user|dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/168.216.12.16}} Example:(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Intelligent_undead&oldid=255682) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
** Blocked - I think all edits have been reverted as well. (No need to mark reports as "minor" changes, by the way) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
* If I might be permitted to include a brief personal opinion here, this is an example of what happens when one has a perfect storm of a virus, its quarantine procedures, and protests, all together. So, reporting user {{user|BurnLootMurder}} for gibbering-insane [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Material&curid=31922&diff=252946&oldid=249363 '''trolling and vandalism''', which should really have a CW for implied violence and encouragement to doxxing on it, IMHO] The obvious solution being, to block and revert with due speed.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 09:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
** Done —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
*Reporting user {{user|DogfanDFNerd‎}} for repeatedly trying to change the [[:File:WikiLogo 4fa619.png|wiki logo]] with a low quality replacement. Something as important as the logo shouldn't be meddled with by non-admins, much less users without any edits, and the fact they can't be bothered to fix the glaring spelling mistake by the third time suspends my belief that this is being done in good faith. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 13:59, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
** Sorry for the delay - I've protected the page. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
*Reporting user {{User|Silverwing235}} for a long-standing pattern of problematic editing. As an example, after the first 3 times Silverwing235 [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247287&oldid=247280 added this error], I [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&curid=36342&diff=247295&oldid=241756 explained the problem] on Silverwing235's talk page. Silverwing235 [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=next&oldid=247295 removed that explanation] with the comment "message received and understood", then less than a day later [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247303&oldid=247296 made the same edit a fourth time]. Silverwing235 started making many problematic edits in July 2018, received a [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=238883&oldid=238709 warning in January 2019], and has continued unabated since; just this weekend I wasted more than two hours reviewing and reverting this user's edits. Sadly, it appears nothing short of a block will stop the problematic editing.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
** Thank you for dealing with this. As I haven't been very active on the wiki recently, I don't want to take any administrative action on this alone, particularly since some of Silverwing235's edits that I've seen have been constructive (and I don't personally have a good sense of how many have been disruptive). Edit warring isn't good, though - if you've seen more instances of that, or a large number of disruptive edits recently, let me know. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
***The last time you [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=238890&oldid=238883 suggested doing nothing] (nine months ago) it didn't work; I see no reason to assume the results will be different this time around. Since January, Silverwing235 has made 1779 edits, and I have made more than 265 reversions. You might then assume that means that 85% of Silverwing235's edits were "constructive", but the number is considerably lower; Silverwing235 tends to "serial-edit" the same article multiple times in a row and I revert to the last-good version with a single edit. In fact, Silverwing235 has the "current" edit on only 487 of those pages in that time frame, which charitably estimates the "constructive" edit rate somewhere around 50%. Anyway, this prolonged situation has sapped my desire to work on the wiki, so you'll need to find someone else to proofread Silverwing235's edits.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
****I don't think doing nothing is the solution, but I think some of these edits are pretty subjective. Of the edits you reverted today, I agree with [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Meat_industry&diff=prev&oldid=247436] (although the section is admittedly inconsistent with its other 7 sibling sections), and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Equipment&diff=prev&oldid=247438] (although this is pretty minor, the "each" shouldn't have been removed). I think [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=247437&oldid=247435] was unclear both ways (only the first and third action led to the consequence in the same sentence, which I tried to address [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=next&oldid=247437 here]). As for [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Armor&diff=prev&oldid=247439], you reverted several reasonable changes besides the singular "they"-related change. (I probably would have done the same after dealing with a number of earlier edits, to be fair.) I don't think "he" or "it" can apply to "dwarf or other creature" in every case, but regardless of that, singular "they" is controversial, as you have mentioned. Neither [[DF:MOS|this wiki]] nor [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia] seem to take a strong stance on the matter, so in my book, it's a personal preference - it's not right or wrong. I am unwilling to take administrative action over it, and I don't want to see edit wars over it either (i.e. going forward, I will side in favor of whatever choice was made in the article before it was changed). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:59, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
**I hate to add to this old thread, but, as it has been raised before, it seems appropriate. As Loci said in 2019, this '''is''' a long-standing pattern, and this user makes a large number of edits every month. One example: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256610&oldid=256609], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256621&oldid=256620], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256644&oldid=256643]. I was an active editor on the wiki some years ago—not that it matters—and since I rejoined, this kind of editing showing up in the recent changes has been a huge distraction from any other editing I mean to do. I know this ''isn't'' Wikipedia, but this kind of editing—literally declaiming “stylistic [sic] sense be damned” in edit summaries (which are always marked '''m'''—why?)—is the reason why Wikipedia has policies like [[wikipedia:WP:CIR|WP:CIR]], [[wikipedia:WP:DE|WP:DE]], [[wikipedia:WP:DDE|WP:DDE]], and especially [[wikipedia:WP:IDHT|WP:IDHT]]. It's hard to consider any wiki editing ''productive'' when there is no constraint on this behavior. The large number of similar edits (often "serial" edits, as Loci mentioned) performed by this single editor means that anything another editor adds will probably be similarly “fixed” within a few months. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 21:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
***I’d like to add my own third-person (second-person?) perspective on this. One of being a non-native English writer prone to making the kind of mistakes SilverWing fixes. Thanks to that, I (and others) don’t have to worry as much about perfecting the language while adding information, which makes adding. Conversely, I believe the strict rules of Wikipedia makes it harder for new editors to join. For Wikipedia, this may be a positive as it increases the quality, but this wiki is one starved for editors and can thus not afford such luxuries. It is true that SilverWing has a pattern of editing recently edited articles, which may bury those recent edits. As to why, my suspicion (backed up by what I remember them writing about it on the forum) is that they read the edit to check for errors/bad grammar, and then skim through the rest of the article while they are at it. The ’m’ is to mark that they didn’t add any info, only refactor what was already available. That way other wiki editors can chose to ignore those edits. (I believe that is the intended usage of the ’m’inor edit mark, am I wrong?) I’ve not seen them ”fix”/revert anything but changes to the syntax. They are obviously stubborn when it comes to that, perhaps in excess, but it should not disturb you when adding content. I believe that worry is unfounded. Ultimately, while grammar is subjective means not all of SilverWing’s edits are clearly productive, but I’d still argue that having someone like them adds a certain polish to the wiki we would otherwise miss out on. —[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 01:05, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****To the contrary: Silverwing235 often '''introduces''' errors in both grammar and syntax. That is actually the point of this thread.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:21, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****The problem I have with that assessment is that, from the (admittedly not thorough) looks I've had at Silverwing235's edit history, a lot of edits ''have'' been productive. Some have fixed mistakes that other editors have introduced, like Voliol described, which has a positive impact on the wiki. As for how to deal with the edits that introduce errors, see my comment below. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******I didn't say they ''always'' introduce errors, but they ''often'' do. On Wikipedia, this was once a fairly common problem, but a variety of policies have reduced both its occurrence and its impact. WP editors who consistently try to make “corrections” to a narrow set of linguistic features, ''often'' committing certain kinds of error—for example, “correcting” occurrences of “or” so that it is almost always preceded by a comma—are considered disruptive, ''even if many of their edits are productive''. And while this wiki isn't Wikipedia, and has its own specific needs, etc., the problem is probably about the same (though it might ultimately be worse for this wiki, since the number of editors active on a given day is a tiny fraction). '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 19:30, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
*** Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256644]. A comma might have been a better choice than a semicolon, but ''no'' punctuation there makes the sentence more difficult to parse. This is a situation where I would encourage a talk page or user page discussion as appropriate. I do think your [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256645 most recent edit] was a good compromise, though. [Edit: maybe the comma should have gone after "visitor" instead, but that's beside the point - this was a good-faith attempt to make the article more readable, and it should have been responded to with an improvement, not a reversion.] More generally, I don't want to block individual users for making edits like this. I have been keeping an eye on [[Special:RecentChanges]], and I think most of Silverwing235's changes in recent months have been uncontroversial compared to the ones that Loci originally report here. I ''am'' willing to temporarily lock pages in the cases of arguments being made in edit summaries, such as the one you and Silverwing participated in here, if necessary. I think I agree with Voliol for the most part, and invoking [[wikipedia:WP:CIR]] doesn't seem appropriate to me. Some edit summaries don't make sense, but I think that minor changes are generally tagged appropriately, and you can filter them out from [[Special:RecentChanges]] if you like. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:50, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****Re [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256644]: that's why '''I''' finally edited it myself. Silverwing235's edit ''introduced errors'' rather than ''fix'' it. To be honest, I don't have time to clarify the rest of this. See my edit history since I rejoined just a few weeks ago. It's enough for me to see that a long-time editor like Loci actually appears to have abandoned the wiki over similar problems—I, myself, am probably out as well. There just isn't time. I wanted to add to articles relevant to modding, now that DF has undergone several updates (and much of the information about the raws here appears to be outdated or “partially correct” since then). That no one has addressed Silverwing235's behavior is surprising. I have huge respect for you, otherwise, Lethosor, but I think you've got the wrong impression here. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:16, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
****'''Update''': same editor makes same erroneous edit '''[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256966&oldid=256964 again]''', weeks after edit warring (which was originally resolved by [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014%3AJustice&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=256648&oldid=256644] and the subsequent [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256668&oldid=256648 page protection] you applied). This is circumvention. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:35, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
*****I think there was an attempt to fix the run-on sentence there originally, and I would typically tend to agree with [[Wikipedia:WP:NOTPERFECT]]. That is, I think that since there was an attempt to improve the article, other editors should prefer to continue to improve the article, or figure out some mutually-agreeable solution, rather than simply reverting changes. However,
******in this case, I see why [[Wikipedia:WP:IDHT]] could apply, given that the error was reverted multiple times (I think this is more oriented towards lengthy discussions, not edit warring, but it could be applied to the latter too).
******I understand that attempting to improve erroneous edits is more time-consuming than simply reverting them. I often don't have time to screen everything myself.
******I appreciate your concern for the wiki, and I don't want to drive editors away. We need the kind of content that you want to add, just as much as we need the types of fixes Silverwing235 is attempting to make. I would like to find some solution that can allow everyone to contribute.
******If Silverwing235 is making ''a lot'' of erroneous edits, to the point where the quality of the wiki is negatively impacted, then I agree that something should be done.
*****Here is my proposal - over the next couple weeks, I will look over as many of Silverwing235's edits as I can, focusing on more recent ones. I will note any that I consider productive ''or'' counterproductive, although I may not be able to address all of the latter. You're welcome to flag any that you think I should consider, although you're under no obligation to. If I notice a significant number of counterproductive edits, I will send them over to Silverwing235 (and link them here). After that, if similar edits continue, I think that would warrant more warnings and/or administrative action (again, I would greatly prefer not to take severe steps like an immediate block). What do you think of this? If there are ways that Wikipedia handles situations like this, I'd be open to hearing about them too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******Before I say anything else, I want to briefly address a question sort of implicit in the phrasing of your first point. I really don't think you intended to raise it, but a random reader skipping to this part of the thread might not realize that. ''Do I object to anyone's trying to improve the wiki?'' Of course not. I don't know whether I've written anything that might give someone that impression, but I hope this explicit statement is enough to quell any doubts. Editors should try to improve the wiki, and editors ''will'' make mistakes in the process. That is not the subject of this discussion.
******Regarding [[wikipedia:WP:NOTPERFECT|NOTPERFECT]]: I'm not sure if this is cited much outside the context of articles, often new or simply low-activity, which have ''existing'' issues, where either the article has been nominated for deletion or doubts about its suitability have been raised in talk or somewhere else. It's especially used as a defense against deletionists and exclusionists (though [https://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/08/wikipedia-muds-and-where-the-sources-are/ historically], that has rarely prevented a controversial [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_process#No_quorum deletion], particularly when [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability#General_notability_guideline it was inevitable]).
*****:It's also applicable when one or more editors have made ''substantial'' additions to an article, where the editors' spelling, grammar, organization, formatting etc. are not quite right (insufficient or poor sourcing usually triggers another set of considerations, but I would include it here as well, as long as the content isn't controversial or BLP etc.). But I don't think I've ever witnessed such an instance where anyone actually needed to ''cite'' this policy in a discussion that followed. (Not that I think I'm wrong about its applicability in those cases, just that they seem to “handle themselves” by virtue of other editors' assessment of the content. I think there are a few reasons for that, including the relative breadth and number of Wikipedia articles; the number of active editors, administrators, bureaucrats, etc.; and the imponderable volume of views and edits each day.)
******To me, this case—a single editor repeatedly introducing ''new'' issues to articles which (while themselves NOTPERFECT) did not already have such issues, usually in the process of making miscellaneous other '''m'''inor edits that ''do not'' substantially contribute to the content—is not an instance of either of those scenarios. An editor who ''knows'' that a minor correction needs to be made ''should make that correction''; but when in doubt (such as when an editor's judgment of a particular kind of correction has repeatedly led them astray), ''unless something substantial is being added, it's not necessarily productive to make a guess.'' For example, Silverwing235 has ''usually'' been correct in their adjustment of capitalization and plural formation intra-wiki links. But with respect to several other categories of edit (mostly also copy-, but not always—e.g., [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256767&oldid=256750]) which Silverwing235 gravitates to, they continue to make certain adjustments which they have been repeatedly corrected on (and in some cases advised not to make ''at all'', in order to avoid further issue).
*****:This is particularly troubling where it relates to similar edits which suggest the editor is imposing idiosyncratic usage (nonstandard punctuation, grammar, diction, etc., or a preference for one x over another where the extant form is equivalent or better) even after being informed of the mistake and asked to avoid repeating it. As (I think) Loci suggested somewhere, on Wikipedia this ''really is'' considered disruptive editing.
******About your proposal: before I read your most recent posts to this discussion, I actually started to write a note about a series of troubling edits from ''just the last two days'' that relate to the subject of this thread as well as [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&oldid=256734#Further_comment the User_talk spillover which began with Silverwing235's own comments on their own talk page]. If you don't mind, I'd like to take more time to read and respond to the entirety of what you wrote here (after “Here is my proposal”). But since I was going to post this note here anyway—again, only because from my point of view, this is part of a ''pattern'' of ''ongoing behavior'' which has already impacted the wiki, ''not'' because I think every problem edit deserves to be highlighted on this board (which I don't)—it might as well be part of the reply.
******Examples from just one article over two days:
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256370&oldid=256369] unnecessary revision, introduces erroneous punctuation; buried in history due to string of “serial edits”
******#: Relevant prior diffs include: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Die&diff=prev&oldid=256547], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Troubleshooting&diff=prev&oldid=256503] (not an exhaustive list).
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256767&oldid=256750] totally elective revision, also erroneous
******#: Edit summary suggests indifference to whether their basis is even true. Again, I think '''it's reasonable to expect the editor to''' be able to '''articulate a rationale''' for their edits. In Silverwing235's case, actually, it would help them to avoid this kind of problem altogether (and probably improve the quality of their editing) if they actually tried to do so ''before making each edit''. Rather than immediately revising something that they don't like the look of, they could first ask themselves some simple questions about what they're about to change; the answers to those questions would be used to write an actual edit summary (which, although they've been asked to write more thorough summaries, they didn't quite do in this case).
******#: Note: I followed up on this revert with a [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Bourgeoisie detailed response], which I only felt necessary because of this editor's ''persistence'' in making superficial changes that needlessly eliminate or render incorrect other editors' contributions. I would not ordinarily feel this was worth saying, but the general point has been made—and made forcefully—several times in the past. Why should an editor make changes when they can't articulate the reasons for those changes? Editors may be guided by instinct, but their revisions are supposed to be supported by more than their personal feeling about how something looks or sounds. Again, it's not that I think ''you'' don't know this; I'm simply trying to explain my tone.
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256797&oldid=256791] ''a day later'', same article, another unnecessary revision focusing on the same paragraph which was reverted the day before
******#: Uses a semicolon to combine an introductory sentence with the first of the following ''sequence'' of sentences which describe elements of the subject.
******#: I saw that you sifted this one and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256791&oldid=256767 partially restored] the prior version. I think at this point, the editor should have stopped trying to edit the superficial structure of the same paragraph. There are other articles to work on. Otherwise, sequences of similar edits and reverts can be construed (from the history) as a fixated attempt to circumvent consensus (re changes which were proscribed earlier).
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256798&oldid=256797] '''next''' ''day'', same article; unnecessary rewording introduces idiosyncratic commas
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256799&oldid=256798] ''minutes later'' (“serial edit”) to same article; ''another'' revision to the paragraph “Outside of the keep...”
******#: Another instance in which this editor asserts that the original author made a mistake (“butterfingered”) where there really wasn't one.
******#: Instead, this revision introduces an erroneous semicolon in a ''new'' place.
******#: Again, from the diffs and history, this (as the latest of a sequence of related edits) begins to “look” like a fixation with inserting a semicolon ''somewhere''. The paragraph didn't ''need'' any structural changes, nor did its tone or diction need to be rethought. Yet, after attempting to do all of these things, facing a revert each time, the editor ''persisted'' (introducing further errors where, initially, there were none).
******: At no stage in this process did the editor produce any rationale for the later changes they made to the very same sentences they'd targeted earlier—not even after being reverted several times.
******: Worse than that, many of these errors are of the same general kind as have previously been brought to the editor's attention (insertion of extraneous commas and semicolons; insertion of hyphens and clusters of other characters to produce punctuation nonconformal with English usage (usually in sentences that were already syntactically correct); incorrect or unnecessary merging of sentences or paragraphs; incorrect or unnecessary word substitution).
******: I genuinely would rather not be in the position of suggesting that an editor is doing something wrong that requires admin attention (whatever form that might take). I have no ill will toward the editor in question, but the process—including issuing advice which ''has already been given before'' (which is frequently already covered by MOS, besides), only to see that advice disregarded almost immediately (occasionally accompanied by comments with overt disregard for CIVIL, as I mentioned on your talk page), requiring ''further note-taking'' and ''further discussion on this board''—has become tedious.
******: I'll think about what you wrote in your proposal and write another (hopefully shorter) reply, if I think I have a useful suggestion. Obviously WP has advantages in this area which would be unrealistic or impractical for the wiki's purposes, but I don't think that's really an issue. It's not a matter of life or death, here, either; so, although I mean this commentary sincerely, I have no dear expectations about the outcome. (I do ''hope'' that the editor will take specific steps to learn to change their editing process, but as new editors come and go, the issue is bound to come around again, as it does on WP as well.) I'll try to continue participating constructively, though.
******:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 03:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
***I've encouraged Silverwing to leave better edit summaries, and to move discussions to talk pages if needed. Hopefully this helps encourage more productive changes like [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256645]. I do still want to be informed if you notice a persistent pattern of issues, but this looks to me like a single argument that stands out from a more recent pattern of mostly-helpful edits. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****I think this is the last thing I care to say about it: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Loci#Discussion_in.2C_supposedly.2C_proper_context...], as a response to [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&oldid=247295#An_Usage] (which the user ''removed''—why?), is egregious. From this and from my own observations just skimming their edit history, I don't know how this user never saw consequences.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:36, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****Looking back on that, I think that should have drawn a warning. Initially, I was mostly focused on trying to understand the meaning of that comment, and didn't consider that it was worded as harshly as it was. I understand your [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&diff=prev&oldid=256716 comment] on [[wikipedia:WP:AAGF|WP:AAGF]] better now. As for removing discussions on user pages, I still think [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&diff=256720&oldid=256716 my comment] on [[Wikipedia:WP:OWNTALK]] is relevant. That's why I'd prefer to keep the discussion on disruptive editing here, since removing parts of this discussion is not acceptable. Maintaining references to relevant discussions here is also helpful, so thank you for those. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******I'm glad the problem with the wording has been acknowledged, but there's something there (something important, I think) which you didn't address: Silverwing235's response on Loci's page (''a day before [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247296 they reinstated the idiosyncratic incorrect usage in question]'') says that Silverwing235 is not concerned with whether the original was correct and whether their revision was wrong. After being shown ''in detail'' that the original was correct, and that their revision was not, they referred to the original as
*****:<blockquote>some sort of highly, blatantly obvious spelling/grammar mistake, that honestly needed (or so I thought) no edit summary to [...] stay correct</blockquote>
*****:Even from my brief interaction with them, it's clear this point of view persists. And if it were merely a case of their ''not getting the point'' or simply not reading, I would actually find it easier to understand. But given the rest of their statement, I doubt that was the case ''then'', and I doubt that's the case ''now''; to wit,
*****:<blockquote>Yes, '''''its a mistake to me''''', hence the corrections in the first place [...]</blockquote><blockquote>How to proceed other than leaving it alone (as you seem to have insinuated with your "an usage" interjection on my talk page, unfortunately)? I mean, yeah, [spelling and grammar], '''''corrected thus''''': "[...] an ubiquitous feature"</blockquote>
*****:(Emphasis added by me.)
*****:This editor persists in imposing idiosyncratic (often incorrect) usage rules, and in discussion of their errors, continues to refer to the original versions as ''mistakes'', and their (incorrect or unwarranted) changes as ''corrections''.
*****:I.e., '''''[[wikipedia:WP:IDHT|I Didn't Hear That]]'''''.
******On first read, I, too, took time to parse the discussion there—formatting confusion aside, it was hard to understand without looking at ''all'' the diffs ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=prev&oldid=247208] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247209] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247248] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247251] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247280] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247287] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247296] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247305]), noticing the summary in which Loci included a link to Silverwing235's talk.
*****:Which, actually, I think I must have tried to click before, but the thread of that conversation was difficult to follow. The only reason I was at Silverwing235's talk page to begin with was to find out if anyone had raised these issues with them before. Loci ''had'', but Silverwing235 appeared to have disregarded each instance in which Loci advised them that their edits were incorrect.
******Actually, when Loci pointed out that [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Disruptive_Editing repeated elective edits (especially resulting in the same ''incorrect'' idiosyncratic usages) would constitute disruptive editing]—
*****:<blockquote>Repeatedly modifying acceptable page layouts and punctuation to suit your personal taste is disruptive.</blockquote>
*****:—and you spot-checked some of the reverts involved, notice that Silverwing235's response actually blames Loci for even raising the issue:
*****:<blockquote>[...] what I was trying to do, and thought I had done, before 'Loci, Vandalfinder Mod' came along with their reverts (Not that I want anyone to take on that role with regards to me in particular, it's rather annoying [...]</blockquote>
******And then, in response to your fourth bullet point (re singular ''they'', <q>Since your changes have led to some disagreements, I'm going to ask you to avoid changing any existing content related to singular "they" (this applies to things that use it and things that don't).</q>), Silverwing235 seems to get the wrong message:
*****:<blockquote>3 & 4: Not much to say here, other than: thanks for the assist and I wholeheartedly agree with you about the '''''personal preference''''' thing?</blockquote>
*****:(Emphasis added.)
*****:And in fact, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256636 this behavior is ongoing in 2021], even though you explicitly asked the user to avoid it. I've only been back on the wiki for a few weeks. I haven't actually trawled Silverwing235's past contribs, which, given the number of issues I've noticed, ought to be surprising.
*****:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 16:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

*vandalism by {{User|Johnhankse}} on 40d:Rose gold, [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Rose_gold&oldid=234402] and [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Rose_gold&oldid=234401] [[User:MathFox|MathFox]] ([[User talk:MathFox|talk]]) 09:44, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
*advertising by user {{User|Click4Support}} on the page [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Page request]] --[[User:Edern76|Edern76]] ([[User talk:Edern76|talk]]) 10:54, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
*reverted edits from IP editor {{User|174.51.109.169}} selling e-cigs at [[Mist]]; "reviewed content and references" lol who does that [[User:Vasiln|Vasiln]] ([[User talk:Vasiln|talk]]) 06:48, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*godlysockpuppet here, never used a wiki but just reporting that the df2012 page on security design and df2012 page on Maul has been turned to a spam advertising page. Feel free to clean this up or something. //edit I undid the spam. Im the random IP address.
* Reporting {{user|Bancream}} for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Pressure&curid=11219&diff=189434&oldid=156802 this edit] on [[40d:Pressure]]. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
* Reporting {{user|Pingping111}} for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=185468 this revision] on [[Talk:Main Page]] (12 separate edits). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 17:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
* More IP spam from {{User|180.194.171.229}}: [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline:Succession_League&diff=prev&oldid=183274 here]. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 19:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
* IP Spam: [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline:Succession_League&curid=6982&diff=183202&oldid=180867 this edit] by {{User|180.194.169.157}} --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 16:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
: This report and the one following it both come from the 180.194.*.* block of IP addresses. Perhaps this should be looked into. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 16:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
*IP Spam http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion&curid=14457&diff=182911&oldid=180865 – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Old Ancient|Old Ancient]]

* <s>Not sure how to report this, but [[User:71.118.242.47|71.118.242.47]] [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline%3ASuccession_League_Games&action=historysubmit&diff=182554&oldid=73455 added over 50000 g's] on [[Bloodline:Succession League Games|this page]]. This doesn't seem like the type of spam we normally see, so I'm not sure if it's a bot, but I wouldn't exactly say it's useful information to have in an article. It also doesn't seem like an automated DOS-type attack, but it definitely isn't a normal edit so I thought I'd post it here. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 21:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)</s>
: Considering the lack of spam from this IP since, I don't see any reason to act on this incident now. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 20:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Annaferry]], a user who registered about 10 minutes ago and promptly [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:GhostDwemer&oldid=182179 posted spam on GhostDwemer's talk page]. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 02:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Wingramo]] for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=ASCII_Art_Reward&diff=prev&oldid=179328 this edit]. It supposedly links to the Bay12 Support page but links to downloadranking.com instead. --[[User:Chronotab|Chronotab]] 18:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
:Wingramo's [[Special:Contributions/Wingramo|contributions]], also include an edit on [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_RPG&diff=prev&oldid=179721 Dwarf Fortress RPG] and [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&action=historysubmit&diff=179417&oldid=177987 History of Dwarf Fortress], which I reverted. They seem to be from December, so I'm surprised they went unnoticed. Strangely, Wingramo hasn't made any edits since then. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}}) 19:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Alloy7memory]] for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Architecture&curid=1583&diff=181412&oldid=181411 this edit], which [[Special:Contributions/174.239.35.25|174.239.35.25]] reverted. It's not exactly "link spam", but the username looks similar to most spambots (although strangely it actually contains real words). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 18:06, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/180.194.171.159|180.194.171.159]] for an unrelated link to [http://fosamaxlawsuit12.altervista.org/ something about alcohol abuse] on both [[Bloodline:Succession_League]] and [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion]].
*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/80.218.59.174|80.218.59.174]] for an [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&curid=19125&diff=175408&oldid=174954 edit] made to this page itself. --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 01:51, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/112.202.121.89|112.202.121.89]] for its "contributions" of spam links. 21:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::Those "contributions" were from a year ago. Considering that there hasn't been any spam from that IP address since then, there's no point in banning it now. I removed the spam. -- [[User:HiEv|Hi]][[User talk:HiEv|Ev]] 20:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting new user [[User_talk:Puravida|Puravida]] for a spam link on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Puravida]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 18:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting new user [[User_talk:BLT111|BLT111]] for placing a link to an "adult tool site" on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:BLT111]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
**Already got that one - somehow, I didn't see the website link, but the rest of the page looked suspicious enough that I banned it anyways. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 16:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
***Yes, I edited the url out before posting here... Compliments with the reaction speed! --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:36, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
****In the future, '''don't do that''' - if a bot puts spam on its talk page, '''blank the entire page''' so it's clear that it needs to be deleted. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Reporting [[User talk:Celery‎|Celery]] for all of its "contributions" [[Special:Contributions/Celery|Celery]] [[Special:Contributions/71.75.99.199|71.75.99.199]] 02:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[Special:Contributions/63.248.241.226|63.248.241.226]] for this [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress:About&curid=2&diff=166777&oldid=144963 edit] --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 22:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[User talk:Casinostars‎|Casinostars]] for spam linking in [[Talk:Main Page]]. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Neystec1753|Neystec1753]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Neystec1753]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 11:00, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:Cry1313|Cry1313]] for edits [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&curid=5008&diff=159499&oldid=153841] and [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&curid=5008&diff=159500&oldid=159499] [[User:Calc|Calc]] 12:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[User talk:Neucent1742‎|Neucent1742]] for talk page spam, too. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Reporing [[User talk:Giome1861‎|Giome1861]] for talk page spam. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 13:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Suco1260|Suco1260]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Suco1260]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 19:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Detoxdietgirl‎|Detoxdietgirl‎]] for placing an advertorial on her(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Detoxdietgirl‎]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 12:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Exto1871|Exto1871]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Exto1871]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 18:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Rueti1215|Rueti1215]] for placing an advertorial on his user talk page [[User_talk:Rueti1215]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 14:23, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting user [[User_talk:Lethuphuong89|Lethuphuong89]] for two (already reverted) edits [[Special:Contributions/Lethuphuong89]] [[Special:Contributions/84.134.6.29|84.134.6.29]] 13:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting user [[User talk:Tari1388|Tari1388]] for (reverted) talk page spam. [[Special:Contributions/84.134.6.29|84.134.6.29]] 13:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting IP 167.128.19.234 for vandalizing [[Talk:Main Page]] [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=158314]
--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 17:12, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting IP 94.122.66.247 for inserting spam links into [[Talk:Main Page]] and [[Talk:Main Page/Quote]]
--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 13:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:DMundell|DMundell]] for a bunch of spammy links - see [[Yeti]], [[Badger]], etc. I've reverted the edits and removed the spam.
-- [[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 11:34, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Um, I don't actually have an account here, but I've just noticed a few things:

- Clicking on some page links results in downloading a .rar file, named with the name of the page you were trying to go to. There's a blank file inside. Also, the main page is encountering database error. It's like the entire site is having a stroke, so I assume some kind of DDOS-like attack is being carried out.
Reporting user [[User:DivinaLittlefield|DivinaLittlefield]] for a number of edits. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 20:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
:Concur, 3 more edits by [[User:DivinaLittlefield|DivinaLittlefield]] around 21:00 today. Invisible direct and redirection links to a site hawking weight control. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 21:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Reporting users [[User:Shushu|Shushu]], [[User:Liliyuan|Liliyuan]], [[User:Smalltrees|Smalltrees]], and [[User:Bingbingyuan|Bingbingyuan]] for user tallk page spam. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 09:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user Ameriplan - bunch of spammy stuff in User talk:Ameriplan
[[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 11:25, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User talk:Aiai00125|Aiai00125]] for [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion&curid=14457&diff=153375&oldid=153097 this edit to the Centralized discussion page]. The user's talk page also contains linkage spam. -- [[User:Khym Chanur|Khym Chanur]] 03:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
:Also on [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=23a:Creature_small_mammals.txt&curid=15135&diff=153376&oldid=102951 23a:Creature_small_mammals.txt]. Both vandalized pages are reverted.
:[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 11:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:AWurth93|AWurth93]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Consolidated_Development:_Arcs,_core-items,_bloats,_Reqs_and_Powergoals&curid=17308&diff=153356&oldid=149506]. Yep, there's at least one link in that mess. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:JBinkley89|JBinkley89]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Strange_mood] wait. I think this list is actually the same as Sgragg88's. -- [[User:RedHerring|Redherring]] 7:59 23/09/2011 GMT+2 (First time editing, sorry for the mess)
:I would suggest looking into users [[User:AWurth93|AWurth93]] and [[User:EKruse55|EKruse55]]. Their names follow the same pattern as Binkley and Gragg - if they are spam accounts then like those, they are probably to lie dormant for a few days before they start their spam.
:[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 12:40, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:SGragg88|SGragg88]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Water_wheel&diff=153193&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:String_dump&diff=153194&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Weapon_token&diff=153195&oldid=prev edit], and this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Creature_token&diff=153196&oldid=prev edit]. I'd be remiss to not include this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Lead&diff=153197&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Advanced_world_generation&diff=153198&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=23a:Weapon_token&diff=153199&oldid=prev edit], or this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Armor&diff=153200&oldid=prev edit]. And who could forget such classics as this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Strange_mood&diff=153201&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Armor_user&diff=153202&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Release_information&diff=153203&oldid=prev edit], and everbody's favorite: this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Caravans&diff=153204&oldid=prev edit]? But wait! There's more! This [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Strange_mood&diff=153205&oldid=152796 edit] free with purchase! --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 21:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[Special:Contributions/75.163.224.80|75.163.224.80]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Adventure_mode_quick_start&curid=18784&diff=152872&oldid=152303 edit] --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 04:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
:At Wikipedia we'd call that a "test edit" - most likely the first ever wiki edit by a young person who didn't quite believe they could change the internet. My bet is that there won't be any further disruption from that IP address, so no administrator action is required. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 14:56, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
:: I tend to agree here. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 07:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Pre-emptive, but I'm guessing the following are not genuine new-user registrations... 
(User creation log); 09:14 . . Download Love That Girl! - Season One 1080p movie New user account 
(User creation log); 08:44 . . Download 60 Minutes Australia - 2011 Full movie New user account 
[[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 10:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 
#Reporting IP Address 124.6.181.189 for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&oldid=152086 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 16:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting IP Address 124.6.181.183 for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&diff=prev&oldid=151941 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 19:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:Jose|Jose]] for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Nail&oldid=151747 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 18:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a link insertion at [[Talk:Main_Page/Quote/archive1]] by an anonymous IP. I undid it, not sure if other measures need to be taken.
[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 19:10, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

There was a vandalism at "http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Ruin". -- Dragongutz
:No there wasn't - the article history clearly indicates that the article has '''never''' had any content. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

reporting user [[User:Jalohear]] [[http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=135938 link]]
:Interestingly, that user (and 2 others) signed up over a week ago and sat dormant this entire time. The bastards are trying to get sneaky... --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
::I've seen vandalized main pages like that on the other wikis under attack. I'm not sure, but I think they start doing that only after they've "burrowed" into the site for an extended period of time. I believe the goal is to keep their spam links a part of the wiki for as long as possible. [[User:Uristocrat|Uristocrat]] 08:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
:::I suspect they were remaining dormant in order to get past the "new user" stage and gain the ability to edit semi-protected pages. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
::::I've modified new user stage so that you have to have made 10 edits before you can edit semiprotected articles or create new articles, in addition to the 3 day wait period. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 17:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::I'm glad. Sounds like that should help. Although, I just tried to create my user profile ([[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]]) and it gave me a '''Permission error''', it said "You do not have permission to create new pages." (I do not have 10 edits yet.) Perhaps you should make user profiles exempt from this rule? Also, I would recommend mentioning to new members about these requirements. Otherwise, it could mean a lot of confused new members at a lot of complaints. You would not have to be specific, however. You could just say that "several edits" are required before that privilege is granted. --[[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]] 23:01:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::I made your user profile page for you. An admin will have to do anything else. Also, I have confirmation now that the webspam team at Google is taking a look at this. They're interested because it's not just this wiki, there are thousands of others being vandalized by spammers and their real goal is to get their crap into the search engines. That probably won't stop the spambots from vandalizing things, but it will help keep them from profiting from this. [[User:Uristocrat|Uristocrat]] 08:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::I'll look into permissions today and see if I can get user page creation working for newly registered users. Also, you're probably right about needing a notice of some sort for this change. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 16:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Both [[User_talk:DaisyBarrett DaisyBarrett]] ([http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&diff=prev&oldid=151347 example]) and [[User_talk:SunshineMcfadden SunshineMcfadden]] ([http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Sand&diff=prev&oldid=151343 example]) have added link-spam marked as minor edits. Link spam is the only edits these two users have done. -- [[User:Khym Chanur|Khym Chanur]] 20:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
:Did you not notice that their edits were undone and '''I banned both of them 9 hours ago'''? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:15, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a single spam edit by 124.6.181.171, which I've reverted. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 07:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
:^Same story for DScheer82. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 10:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Justice

2021-04-05T20:14:59Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Undo revision 256964 by Silverwing235 (talk) Completely unnecessary substitution (new version is no better than old one).

{{Quality|Exceptional|02:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)}}{{av}}

[[File:dwarf_justice.png|thumb|300px|right|When you forget the Baron's demands for 3 flutes. ''Art by gustav_black'']]'''Justice''' is available in the game once a [[Sheriff]] or [[captain of the guard]] has been appointed through the [[Noble|{{k|n}}obles]] screen, and is used to deal with dwarves violating mandates, breaking furniture, starting fights, etc. The dwarven justice screen shows details of crimes and punishments, and is available through the {{k|z}}-status screen (even if no nobles are appointed yet).

==Crimes==
* '''Violation of Production Order''' - failing to produce items [[mandate]]d by a [[noble]].
* '''Violation of Export Prohibition''' - selling items to a caravan which a [[noble]] forbade exporting.
* '''Violation of Job Order''' - failing to complete [[guild]] jobs [[mandate]]d by the [[mayor]] (currently does not happen).
* '''Conspiracy to Slow Labor''' - deliberately slowing down the workflow of the fortress by delaying jobs (currently does not happen)
* '''Murder''' - killing a fellow dwarf or tame [[animal]]; alternatively, being caught [[vampire|sucking blood]] out of another dwarf.
* '''Disorderly Conduct''', '''Building destruction''', '''Vandalism''' - attacking another dwarf, destroying a [[building]], or toppling [[furniture]] or [[door]]s during a [[tantrum]].
* '''Theft''' - a dwarf stole an [[artifact]]
* '''Espionage''' - an [[agent]] infiltrated your fortress as a [[visitor]] as part of a larger plot (for example, to steal an [[artifact]], or to corrupt a [[noble]]).

If a [[vampire]] is caught feeding on another dwarf, even if the victim survives, it is still considered a murder. The vampire will typically make a false report, to try to frame another dwarf. Witnesses will also sometimes make false reports to try and frame dwarves they have [[grudge]]s against.

In some cases, the player has to convict a criminal or suspect, in others, criminals are convicted without player input. In case of mandate infractions, the player is generally not asked for input, while murderers must be convicted by the player. Practically anybody can be blamed for a murder, including tame animals and long-dead persons. The fort population will feel [[Thought#Justice|affronted]] at particularly nonsensical convictions.

"Violating an export ban" happens when a banned item is sold to a merchant and a merchant leaves the map with it. In this case, the criminal is NOT the trader who authorized the sale, but the hapless hauler who brought the good to the trade depot. It can happens when a noble decides to ban an export '''after''' you've already traded away a relevant item. Yeah, that's lame, but one way to mitigate it is to not perform trades unless there is an active mandate, and then obey it. You'll have a lower risk of the noble making a NEW mandate between the time merchants arrive and depart if one is already in place. If you've sold an item that subsequently becomes banned, but the merchants haven't left yet, you can also eat your pride and pay to buy it back.

If your dwarves start throwing [[tantrum]]s, then you'll see the harsher crimes, as they let off steam by throwing items around, breaking furniture, toppling doors, and punching fellow dwarves who are just trying to clean up the mess - instead of punches, sometimes, they may use the weapons they're carrying. Suddenly, keeping those axe lords happy seems a bit more high priority, eh?

Dwarves and others are also variously tempted by e.g. the opportunity to embezzle or accept bribes using the power of their positions. If their personality and values aren't up to the challenge, they may eventually fall to temptation and undertake corrupt activities in an ongoing fashion, which will make them a target for both law enforcement and blackmail.

==Punishments==
Dwarves who misbehave can receive punishments if a [[sheriff]] has been assigned. In increasing order of severity (at least that's what your dwarves think):
# Beating by a [[fortress guard]] (more dangerous than it sounds, see below)
# Imprisonment for a period of time.
# Hammering by the [[Hammerer]].
The punishment for a crime, or series of crimes, will be issued by the [[sheriff]] or by a member of the [[fortress guard]]. If the crime calls for imprisonment, then the guard will try to put the prisoner in [[jail]]; if no jails are available, the guard will "downgrade" the punishment to a beating, giving the criminal a happy thought and the injured party (i.e. the dwarf injured by the criminal, if one exists) an unhappy thought. If the crime calls for hammer strikes, then the Hammerer will attach the prisoner to a restraint before carrying out the sentence; if no justice restraints are available, the punishment will be downgraded to a beating. All punishments will give the criminal an unhappy thought (and the guard/Hammerer a happy thought).

Note that it is usually not a good idea to train your guards to physical perfection if you want your dwarves to survive beatings:
Punches to the head have a very high fatality rate, possibly due to a bug {{bug|2907}}. Therefore it is wise to ensure that any criminals scheduled for beating are fitted with a metal helm as quickly as possible (if you want them to live). Even without headstrikes, beatings can easily result in broken bones or organ damage, making prison sentences a less risky option.

Punishments are performed sequentially; a criminal who has been sentenced to jail time ''and'' a hammering will not be hammered until the entire jail term has been served.

==Interrogation==
Dwarves can also be interrogated as the suspects of crimes, in which case they are escorted by the Captain of the Guard to their office and questioned. If the interrogation is successful (as determined by the Captain's various social skills, along with the target's) the target will confess what they know, whether that is a crime they themselves have committed or their membership of a particular scheming or other villainous organisation, and possibly the names of other members of said organisations; the results are detailed in a [[report]].
Interrogating an innocent dwarf does not have any negative effects, so if you're unsure of a culprit, you could interrogate the entire fort without any repercussions other than lost work time.

==Cages and Chains==
Metal cages, metal chains, and ropes can be built and designated as [[jail]]s ({{k|q}}uery -> make a {{k|r}}oom -> use for {{k|j}}ustice), where dwarves can be imprisoned for a time as part of their punishment. A dwarf throwing a tantrum may destroy restraints (even metal ones) and escape, leading to further punishment (for building destruction).

It is also strongly recommended to use chains, not cages for imprisonment: dwarves on chains are still free to move one step in any direction, allowing them to keep themselves fed and hydrated when food and booze stockpiles or wells are placed adjacent to the chain. Dwarves in cages are entirely dependent on the assistance of others.

==Happiness management==
A dwarf that is carelessly tied up in a dank dungeon is subject to several unhappy thoughts. Most can be avoided or offset with some care:

Putting food and booze stockpiles right next to the chain allows for happy thoughts from both instead of having to drink water when (if) someone finally brings some. Decorating your jail with numerous valuable engravings and furniture is helpful too. This includes the chain itself -- prisoners will be happier being shackled with a shiny [[diamond]]-[[decoration|encrusted]] [[gold]] chain than tied up with a boring old [[pig tail]] rope. Finally, with a bed and a table next to a chair all within a square of the chain itself, negative thoughts approach zero.

==Backlog==
Crimes do not seem to lapse, so if you've delayed appointing the "executive" nobles for some time, there might be a long list of delinquents and open sentences pending. The law will swiftly proceed to chaining up all delinquents and, once all chains are occupied, beating up any remaining free "criminals". Therefore, beatings are avoided only by constructing restraints first, and possibly way more than recommended in the z-screen.

==Exemption==

Creatures are exempt from the justice system if they are any of the following:

* Dead
* [[Insane]]
* In a [[strange mood]]
* A [[child]] or a [[baby]]
* A non-dwarf (to exclude animals)
* A local position holder with {{token|PUNISHMENT_EXEMPTION}}

{{D for Dwarf}}

In the Dwarven justice system, the Dwarves are oppressed by two separate yet equally obstinate nobles: the sheriff, who investigates crimes, and the hammerer, who beats the living %#(* out of the offenders. These are their stories.

"Thank god I only got assigned a long-term jail time followed by a hammering. My partner in crime was assigned to a guard beating, poor bastard's head got pulped after one punch." -Urist Mc. Murderhobo.

{{Translation| dwarven = imketh | elvish = leÿa | goblin = aka | human = takru}}

{{Category|Justice}}
[[ru:Justice]]

Justice

2021-04-05T20:11:59Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Undo revision 256966 by Silverwing235 (talk) Absolutely unnecessary. Original blurb was clear and correct; revision was erroneous.

{{Quality|Exceptional|02:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)}}{{av}}

[[File:dwarf_justice.png|thumb|300px|right|When you forget the Baron's demands for 3 flutes. ''Art by gustav_black'']]'''Justice''' is available in the game once a [[Sheriff]] or [[captain of the guard]] has been appointed through the [[Noble|{{k|n}}obles]] screen, and is used to deal with dwarves violating mandates, breaking furniture, starting fights, etc. The dwarven justice screen shows details of crimes and punishments, and is available through the {{k|z}}-status screen (even if no nobles are appointed yet).

==Crimes==
* '''Violation of Production Order''' - failing to produce items [[mandate]]d by a [[noble]].
* '''Violation of Export Prohibition''' - selling items to a caravan which a [[noble]] forbade exporting.
* '''Violation of Job Order''' - failing to complete [[guild]] jobs [[mandate]]d by the [[mayor]] (currently does not happen).
* '''Conspiracy to Slow Labor''' - deliberately slowing down the workflow of the fortress by delaying jobs (currently does not happen)
* '''Murder''' - killing a fellow dwarf or tame [[animal]]; alternatively, being caught [[vampire|sucking blood]] out of another dwarf.
* '''Disorderly Conduct''', '''Building destruction''', '''Vandalism''' - attacking another dwarf, destroying a [[building]], or toppling [[furniture]] or [[door]]s during a [[tantrum]].
* '''Theft''' - a dwarf stole an [[artifact]]
* '''Espionage''' - an [[agent]] infiltrated your fortress as a [[visitor]] as part of a larger plot (for example, to steal an [[artifact]], or to corrupt a [[noble]]).

If a [[vampire]] is caught feeding on another dwarf, even if the victim survives, it is still considered a murder. The vampire will typically make a false report, to try to frame another dwarf. Witnesses will also sometimes make false reports to try and frame dwarves they have [[grudge]]s against.

In some cases, the player has to convict a criminal or suspect, in others, criminals are convicted without player input. In case of mandate infractions, the player is generally not asked for input, while murderers must be convicted by the player. Practically anybody can be blamed for a murder, including tame animals and long-dead persons. The fort population will feel [[Thought#Justice|affronted]] at particularly nonsensical convictions.

"Violating an export ban" happens when a banned item is sold to a merchant and a merchant leaves the map with it. In this case, the criminal is NOT the trader who authorized the sale, but the hapless hauler who brought the good to the trade depot. It can happens when a noble decides to ban an export '''after''' you've already traded away a relevant item. Yeah, that's lame, but one way to mitigate it is to not perform trades unless there is an active mandate, and then obey it. You'll have a lower risk of the noble making a NEW mandate between the time merchants arrive and depart if one is already in place. If you've sold an item that subsequently becomes banned, but the merchants haven't left yet, you can also eat your pride and pay to buy it back.

If your dwarves start throwing [[tantrum]]s, then you'll see the harsher crimes, as they let off steam by throwing items around, breaking furniture, toppling doors, and punching fellow dwarves who are just trying to clean up the mess - instead of punches, sometimes, they may use the weapons they're carrying. Suddenly, keeping those axe lords happy seems a ''bit'' more high-priority...

Dwarves and others are also variously tempted by e.g. the opportunity to embezzle or accept bribes using the power of their positions. If their personality and values aren't up to the challenge, they may eventually fall to temptation and undertake corrupt activities in an ongoing fashion, which will make them a target for both law enforcement and blackmail.

==Punishments==
Dwarves who misbehave can receive punishments if a [[sheriff]] has been assigned. In increasing order of severity (at least that's what your dwarves think):
# Beating by a [[fortress guard]] (more dangerous than it sounds, see below)
# Imprisonment for a period of time.
# Hammering by the [[Hammerer]].
The punishment for a crime, or series of crimes, will be issued by the [[sheriff]] or by a member of the [[fortress guard]]. If the crime calls for imprisonment, then the guard will try to put the prisoner in [[jail]]; if no jails are available, the guard will "downgrade" the punishment to a beating, giving the criminal a happy thought and the injured party (i.e. the dwarf injured by the criminal, if one exists) an unhappy thought. If the crime calls for hammer strikes, then the Hammerer will attach the prisoner to a restraint before carrying out the sentence; if no justice restraints are available, the punishment will be downgraded to a beating. All punishments will give the criminal an unhappy thought (and the guard/Hammerer a happy thought).

Note that it is usually not a good idea to train your guards to physical perfection if you want your dwarves to survive beatings:
Punches to the head have a very high fatality rate, possibly due to a bug {{bug|2907}}. Therefore it is wise to ensure that any criminals scheduled for beating are fitted with a metal helm as quickly as possible (if you want them to live). Even without headstrikes, beatings can easily result in broken bones or organ damage, making prison sentences a less risky option.

Punishments are performed sequentially; a criminal who has been sentenced to jail time ''and'' a hammering will not be hammered until the entire jail term has been served.

==Interrogation==
Dwarves can also be interrogated as the suspects of crimes, in which case they are escorted by the Captain of the Guard to their office and questioned. If the interrogation is successful (as determined by the Captain's various social skills, along with the target's) the target will confess what they know, whether that is a crime they themselves have committed or their membership of a particular scheming or other villainous organisation, and possibly the names of other members of said organisations; the results are detailed in a [[report]].
Interrogating an innocent dwarf does not have any negative effects, so if you're unsure of a culprit, you could interrogate the entire fort without any repercussions other than lost work time.

==Cages and Chains==
Metal cages, metal chains, and ropes can be built and designated as [[jail]]s ({{k|q}}uery -> make a {{k|r}}oom -> use for {{k|j}}ustice), where dwarves can be imprisoned for a time as part of their punishment. A dwarf throwing a tantrum may destroy restraints (even metal ones) and escape, leading to further punishment (for building destruction).

It is also strongly recommended to use chains, not cages for imprisonment: dwarves on chains are still free to move one step in any direction, allowing them to keep themselves fed and hydrated when food and booze stockpiles or wells are placed adjacent to the chain. Dwarves in cages are entirely dependent on the assistance of others.

==Happiness management==
A dwarf that is carelessly tied up in a dank dungeon is subject to several unhappy thoughts. Most can be avoided or offset with some care:

Putting food and booze stockpiles right next to the chain allows for happy thoughts from both instead of having to drink water when (if) someone finally brings some. Decorating your jail with numerous valuable engravings and furniture is helpful too. This includes the chain itself -- prisoners will be happier being shackled with a shiny [[diamond]]-[[decoration|encrusted]] [[gold]] chain than tied up with a boring old [[pig tail]] rope. Finally, with a bed and a table next to a chair all within a square of the chain itself, negative thoughts approach zero.

==Backlog==
Crimes do not seem to lapse, so if you've delayed appointing the "executive" nobles for some time, there might be a long list of delinquents and open sentences pending. The law will swiftly proceed to chaining up all delinquents and, once all chains are occupied, beating up any remaining free "criminals". Therefore, beatings are avoided only by constructing restraints first, and possibly way more than recommended in the z-screen.

==Exemption==

Creatures are exempt from the justice system if they are any of the following:

* Dead
* [[Insane]]
* In a [[strange mood]]
* A [[child]] or a [[baby]]
* A non-dwarf (to exclude animals)
* A local position holder with {{token|PUNISHMENT_EXEMPTION}}

{{D for Dwarf}}

In the Dwarven justice system, the Dwarves are oppressed by two separate yet equally obstinate nobles: the sheriff, who investigates crimes, and the hammerer, who beats the living %#(* out of the offenders. These are their stories.

"Thank god I only got assigned a long-term jail time followed by a hammering. My partner in crime was assigned to a guard beating, poor bastard's head got pulped after one punch." -Urist Mc. Murderhobo.

{{Translation| dwarven = imketh | elvish = leÿa | goblin = aka | human = takru}}

{{Category|Justice}}
[[ru:Justice]]

Cave

2021-04-05T19:59:07Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Undo revision 257695 by Silverwing235 (talk) Completely unnecessary.

{{Quality|Superior|01:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
:''Not to be confused with [[Cavern]]s.''

[[File:Cave_entrance.png|thumb|upright|A cave entrance.]]
[[File:Cave_inside.png|thumb|upright|Inside of a cave.]]

A '''cave''' is a small, natural [[site]] featuring a large [[rock]] mound, several [[z-level]]s high, with a downward passage beginning anywhere along the side of the mound. The passage most often leads deep down into a [[cavern]]. Rarely, a cave may lack any passage or even an entrance into the mound.

Most caves have a natural population of subterranean animals, such as [[cave swallow]]s and [[bat]]s. Certain [[megabeast]]s, [[semi-megabeast]]s and [[night creature]]s will settle in caves. If a cave is inhabited by creatures fond of [[Steals items|stealing items]] from nearby sites, their hoard will be littered all over the site. [[Dragon]]s are known to hoard jewelry; [[ettin]]s and [[giant]]s hoard [[jewelry]], [[food]], and [[alcohol]].

Civilized races can also settle in an unoccupied cave. Caves are the starting site of [[kobold]]s. Kobold caves have an extended underground network of tunnels and chambers that are connected to the natural passageway. Like other sites, caves can be attacked by invaders or monsters. They are one of the few known sites that players can [[embark]] on without third-party tools.

== Generation ==

The site encompasses 3×3 embark [[tile]]s, although the cave mound itself only takes up one embark tile, or 48×48 tiles. The mound can be located in any of the embark tiles, so it is not always found at the center of the site.

There are two ways caves can generate: mountain caves occur adjacent to a [[mountain]] region tile, while non-mountain caves occur in any land biome other than mountains. The number of caves per world is determined by the parameters {{DFtext|Number of Mountain Caves}} and {{DFtext|Number of Non-Mountain Caves}}. Both parameters can be configured in [[advanced world generation]].

On the world map, caves are displayed as {{Raw Tile|•|0:0:1}}. By default, however, they are hidden until discovered by an [[Adventurer_mode|adventurer]]. In advanced world gen, setting the option {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} to {{DFtext|Yes}} will make caves visible from the start.

Inside the cave, there are two ramps on each z-level, one going up and one going down. The ramps make a path that goes from the surface to the underground. The pathway is not always a straight line; on some z-levels, the passage can spread out into a small gallery.

The distribution of items (including [[artifact]]s) are scattered within the site borders, from the surface to any subterranean levels reachable by foot, i.e., no loot will be found beyond a rampless drop or a submerged passage, even if the hoard's owner is a flying or amphibious creature.

=== Kobold cave ===

A cave inhabited by skulking thieves has an additional complex network of subterranean passages that link from a single entryway to the natural passage of the cave mound. The underground network is located close to the surface and above the caverns; sometimes it is located just one z-level below the ground. [[Kobold]]s, poisonous critters, and stolen treasure can be found here.

It is easy to get lost in the network of tunnels, which are one tile wide and wind in every direction. Ramps and stairs go up and down several z-levels. The pathways contain hidden [[weapon trap]]s and 3×3 guard posts with armed kobolds. The tunnels are also dotted with tiny pits, which are trapped at the bottom. A unique feature of this site is that each weapon trap is coated with a [[syndrome]]-inducing venom that can range from bumblebee venom, to rattlesnake venom, to the dangerously lethal venom of the [[giant cave spider]]. If a trap hits successfully, the coated weapon will inject the venom into the intruder. Since fast travel or rest is generally not possible in a cave, you will most likely be forced to endure (or succumb) to the venom's effects.

The network of passageways connects five main rooms: a trophy room, a large pit room for tamed animals, a room for [[egg]]s, a room filled with corpses, and the living chambers. Stolen artifacts are piled with other stolen items in the trophy room. The living chambers are irregular cavities that contain many hostile kobolds. The pit room for animals is the largest room, spanning several z-levels deep in gradual slopes, poked with 3×3 enclosures on the sides. This room can include any poisonous non-mammal creatures.

According to [[legends mode]], kobolds may construct a [[market]] and a [[dungeon]] in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structures resembling such in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.

<gallery>
File:Kobold cave entrance.png|Kobold cave entrance. Several levels needed to be traversed down from the natural cave mouth to reach this point.
File:Kobold cave passage.png|First tunnel portion
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z3).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z2).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z1).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z0).png|Second tunnel portion (bottom)
File:Kobold cave pit (z4).png|Pit room (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave pit (z3).png|Pit room (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave pit (z2).png|Pit room (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave pit (z1).png|Pit room (z-level -3)
File:Kobold cave pit (z0).png|Pit room (z-level -4)
File:Kobold cave living.png|Living chambers (the "l" and "g" are [[animal people]])
File:Kobold cave trophy.png|Trophy room
File:Kobold cave eggs.png|Room with eggs
File:Kobold cave corpses.png|Room with corpses
</gallery>

== Fortress mode ==

[[File:Cave embark screen.png|thumb|A cave on the embark selection map screen]]

In [[fortress mode]], you can choose whether or not to make caves visible on the [[embark]] screen when you [[World generation|design]] the world you will play in. The default option for {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} is set to {{DFtext|No}}. If set to yes, caves will appear on the map so that they may be sought out or avoided as desired. Caves have the odd feature that the [[stone]] they are made of doesn't match the material left after it is dug out; for example, a rock wall will leave behind a [[clay]] floor.

== Adventurer mode ==

Caves are one way of entering the [[cavern]]s in [[adventurer mode]]. There are multiple ways of learning their location.

For example, if a civilization takes control of a cave, then that cave's location becomes common knowledge within the civilization. Playing as an adventurer from that civilization, you can find information in your [[quest]] log about the cave and its location{{verify}}; you may even start your adventure there.

Adventurers start knowing rumors that are common knowledge in their civilization, but they usually don't know the location. You can {{DFtext|Bring up specific incident or rumor}} in conversation and then {{DFtext|Ask for directions to}} the location. That will add the location to your quest log which you can then check to see if it is a cave. Similarly, caves can be a location involved in rumors you don't know about which can be brought up with {{DFtext|Inquire about any troubles}}.

They can sometimes be found by repeatedly asking an NPC {{DFtext|about the surrounding area}}; if NPCs in one region don't tell you about any caves, move to another region and try again (but note that some of the place names mentioned by NPCs correspond to regions, not sites). When an NPC does mention a site, it will be added to the list of places you can ask for directions to.

{{Translation
| dwarven = äs
| elvish = garetho
| goblin = omo
| human = ngethac
}}

{{World}}

{{Category|Fortress mode}}
{{Category|Adventurer mode}}

User talk:Lethosor

2021-02-26T18:55:15Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Random/cv */

{{User:Lethosor/header}}
{{Archive|
* [[/archive1|Archive 1 (February-August 2013)]]
* [[/archive2|Archive 2 (Sept. 2013 - May 2014)]]
}}
__TOC__
{{clear}}

==Bot requests==
<div style="" class="plainlinks">
[{{fullurl:User talk:Lethosor|action=edit&section=1&editintro={{urlencode:User:Lethosor/edit intro/bot}}}} '''Add a new request''']
</div>

=== Underpopulated categories ===

Many categories in the DF2014 namespace don't list some of the pages that have the category link. An empty edit on a page (well, any edit) will correct this, but only for that page. This sounds like a job for a bot. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 19:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
:I'm pretty sure that's a cache problem, so I'll try rebuilding link tables on the server side and see if that helps (it would probably be a lot faster than sending a bot around to null-edit every page). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
::This has been fixed. The problem was that the server that actually runs the job queue was still using the old configuration (without the DF2014 namespace). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:17, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

== Diagram ==

Take a look over [[DF talk:diagram|here]]. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 15:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

== Ceramic Industry page assistance. ==

(Message here) --[[User:DorfyDave|DorfyDave]] ([[User talk:DorfyDave|talk]]) 04:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the help with the ceramic industry stuff.

I see what you are doing with the thumbnail workflows on other pages, so if you would rather it be small and let the reader expand it, that would be fine.

I was thinking that the pages looked better with the intro section before the regular content, keeping it separate from the auto TOC / Header listed content, but if you prefer that everything follow the layered header format, that's fine.

:My primary concern was the wrapping caused by inserting the full-size flowchart next to a section. It looks like you've addressed that by splitting up the flowchart, which looks good to me. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

== Removing/restoring [[Main:Fruit]] ==

Not that I am protesting it, but why exactly did you remove and then restore the [[Main:Fruit]] page? Because to me, all that happened now is that the creation entry on the page's history is gone, which isn't really anything notable either.
--{{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|13:03|August 26, 2014}} 13:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
:I deleted it at first because I didn't realize AutoRedirect wasn't handling section redirects properly, then restored it when I noticed it was broken. That article's [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Fruit&action=history history] still shows your revision, so I'm not sure what you mean - is it missing from [[Special:RecentChanges]]? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
::The creation entry I was talking about was actually the first entry, and the entry that is now the only one was the second before you removed it. When I created the page I first had it directly redirect to [[cv:Tree#Fruit]], which after testing didn't work. I usually save the page when the preview doesn't show a red link and the link is correct, and after saving I test it, This time, however, the link in the preview was blue and correct, but actually following the redirect only led to [[cv:Tree]] instead of [[cv:Tree#Fruit]]. The entry you are seeing now is the result of fixing this by making it into a double redirect through [[cv:Fruit]].
:::It looks to me like your first edit was to [[DF2014:Fruit]] - when [[Main:Fruit]] didn't exist, it would have automatically redirected to [[DF2014:Fruit]], so it might have appeared to exist when it didn't. (The problem here is that I made AutoRedirect follow redirect chains internally, since Mediawiki's maximum-redirect setting is buggy, so a nonexistent [[Main:Fruit]] would actually redirect to what [[cv:Fruit]] redirects to - the problem is that it ignores sections at the moment, so section redirects will need to be manually created until I can fix that.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

== settings-manager ==

I don't know where to put it because I don't have a github account and don't know if you have a personal thread for your scripts like the others, but couldn't you add a TEXT mode entry in line 116 of your settings-manager script?
--[[Special:Contributions/78.250.50.116|78.250.50.116]] 04:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
:I originally excluded it because it only works on Linux, but I'll add it back for Linux users. Thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

== Interesting glitch with redirects ==

I went to see what "Candy" was by going to a page named "Candy", and I found out that it meant Adamantine. But I saw that I got redirected to [[v0.34:Adamantine]], which shouldn't happen seeing as mainspace redirects should always go to the cv namespace. So I went back to fix it, and I saw that [[main:Candy]] redirected to [[main:Adamantine]], so I went there to fix it. But that page redirected properly to [[DF2014:Adamantine]]. This is where it gets interesting.

So when you go to [[main:Candy]], you get redirected to [[main:Adamantine]] which in turn redirects to [[DF2014:Adamantine]]. But - for some reason, you don't get sent to [[DF2014:Adamantine]], but to [[v0.34:Adamantine]]. Going to [[main:Adamantine]] in the first place redirects you to [[DF2014:Adamantine]] properly.

I have no idea how this happens, and since you maintain most of the wiki, I think you would be the right person to tell this to.
--{{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|13:42|November 01, 2014}} 13:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

:My best guess is that the [[Main:Candy]] redirect is cached and still points to [[v0.34:Adamantine]]. Our [[DF:REDIR|new policy]] is to keep redirects in versioned namespaces, so feel free to tag any broken redirects (in the main namespace) that you find with {{tl|bad redirect}} and I'll delete them. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 14:48, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

:I just saw a redlink on the exploratory tunnels page(redlink to [[DF2014:Break]]) and went to create it, when I discovered that the pages for Break existed for 23a and 40d, but not for 34.11 and 40.x. I went to check those to import content, and they turned out to be redirects. So I just redirected [[DF2014:Break]] to [[DF2014:On break]] and when I went to create additional redirects in the mainspace, I found that [[main:Break]] redirects to [[main:On break]] which redirects to [[cv:On break]]. But, again, it ultimately did not redirect to cv:On break but to v0.34:Break. I think that if it is indeed a cache problem we should rebuild redirect caches. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:08|November 02, 2014}}
:PS: Or just batch-delete all of this kind of redirects. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:09|November 02, 2014}}
:I don't like "bumping" this message like this, but since it's rather annoying, and ten days have been since I told you, almost all of these redirects are broken. Take a look at [[main:Aluminium]] for example, it goes to its 34.11 page. I think that it goes like this; when a page in the mainspace redirects to another page in the mainspace, which in turn goes to a cv space page, it goes to 0.34 instead of the current version. Going to the main>cv redirect initially does not cause this glitch. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:46|November 12, 2014}}
::It would be helpful if you could add {{tl|bad redirect}} to those pages (preferably before the "#REDIRECT" line) so I can delete them. I'm not sure what's causing the problem, but I'll see if I can override broken redirects with the AutoRedirect extension as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

== Migrated citations ==

As seen on [[DF2014:Dragonfire]], migrated citations can become confused, pointing to non-existent pages. I'm not sure how to fix it, but in general citations shouldn't automatically change what they are pointing at.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 18:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

== <nowiki>{{ArticleVersion}}</nowiki> bug ==

I just found another very strange bug regarding the articleversion template. The more research I did on it, the weirder it got. The bug is that when you are not logged in, and you visit a non-DF2014 page with an av template, the latest version shows as v0.40.16 instead of v0.40.18. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|10:17|November 25, 2014}}
PS: This bug does not replicate when you are logged in. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|10:19|November 25, 2014}}
:This is because pages are cached for logged-out users. You can refresh individual pages by adding "?action=purge" to the end of the URL (or possibly by null-editing them). It appears to occur in DF2014 pages as well - [[DF2014:Hemp]], for example. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

== Lost password request ==

I've forgotten my password. User: Bumber

:You don't seem to have an email address associated with your account. I sent a message to Bumber on the forums, assuming that's you. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:24, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks.

== Redirects ==

Thank you for the correction. I felt I might be doing it wrong but couldn't find an example of it done right to copy. Now I know. :) [[User:Volatar|Volatar]] ([[User talk:Volatar|talk]]) 16:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

== v0.42.05 raws update ==

Just a friendly reminder that the wiki raws need updated to pick up the [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Page_request/List&diff=222917&oldid=222913 new critters in v0.42.05]. It would also be nice if your bot could auto-create the new creature pages so we don't end up with [[back bear man]] and the like.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

:Quietust updated the extension, but I'm having trouble deploying the changes for some reason (which Emily can hopefully figure out). I don't know if I'll have enough time this/next week to write a script to create the new creature pages - if not, Quietust might have something still laying around from 0.34/0.40. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:45, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

== Page move reminder ==

[[DF2014:Box]] to [[DF2014:Container]] please. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 23:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

:Done. It took me a second to figure out what the issue was - I'm surprised Mediawiki wouldn't let you move a page over another one that was just a redirect. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
::Thanks! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:50, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

== v0.43.05 raws update ==

Just a friendly reminder that the wiki raws need updated to pick up the changes through v0.43.05.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

:Done. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:43, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

== Multiple redirects leads to incorrect namespace ==

Discussion here: [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Centralized_Discussion#Solution_for_this]] [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 10:49, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

We had an attack on August 3rd. [[Talk:Main Page (fix plz)]] ‎needs moved back to Talk:Main Page, and the rest of [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/Etihand the vandal's handiwork] can just be deleted. I can't think of any legitimate reason a user would need to move Talk:Main Page, so it should probably be move-locked to prevent future hijacks.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 15:53, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

:It should be cleaned up now. Sorry for the delay there. [[Main Page]] was already move-protected, but apparently that didn't apply to the talk page, so both should be move-protected now too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

== Sorry, I need a password reset ==

I just logged in, saw the post about passwords needing to be changed. (Feeling all smart since I just setup a password manager) I updated my password, only to realize I didn't save the new password correctly in the manager. I tried to reset it but the wiki had a note saying to contact you since it can't do outbound email right now.

My user name is [[Frobnic8]].

My most notable contribution here are the PDF versions of the old Bronzemurder illustration by Tim Denee: [[Bronzemurder]]

The files are still hosted at my website. To prove it's me, I've also left you a note at http://eldritch.org/erskin/temp/df_wiki.txt

Sorry for the hassle, but if you could set me a temporary password or send me a link to a password reset to the associated email address for the account, that'd be awesome.

Thanks!

--[[Special:Contributions/70.163.4.102|70.163.4.102]] 15:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Done —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks! --[[User:Frobnic8|Frobnic8]] ([[User talk:Frobnic8|talk]]) 02:51, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

== Password reset ==

I could have sworn I did this already, but now there's no sign of my edit here. Dunno what happened to it. Can I please get a password reset for user Urist McDorf. I believe the email info associated is still good (j*y@y*m). Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/108.49.199.220|108.49.199.220]] 06:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

== Totally failed to make an account ==

Really think I did everything right.

The Captcha app you are using says it "shutdown" on 3-31-2018 so i'm wondering if that's the issue. – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:216.201.251.142|216.201.251.142]]

:Yeah, we know about it. Emi and Briess are working on some upgrades, and we'll try to upgrade the captcha once it's done. In the meantime, you can PM me on the forums (or email me at gmail.com) and I think I can set up an account for you. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

== Chemist Page Quality Rating ==

The quality rating of the [[chemist]] page is listed as *Superior*, despite being a stub. I can't even decrease the quality down to +Fine+ using the rating script.
I added the memory attribute as stated by Toady's recent FotF reply, and I'll insert the relevant [[topics]] for the skill, but there's probably a lot more work to be done.
--[[User:Bumber|Bumber]] ([[User talk:Bumber|talk]]) 06:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

:The "override" link [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Chemist&action=history worked for me]. You have to click on the rating at the top that you want to select, then submit. The calculated score is unreliable, to say the least. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

::I couldn't figure out how the override worked and just assumed it was an admin thing. Didn't realize you had to click one of the quality options at the top. —[[User:Bumber|Bumber]] ([[User talk:Bumber|talk]]) 22:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

== [Proposition] - Wiki preview popups ==

Hi there.

I've read quite a bit of wikipedia these last few days (the real wikipedia website), and I've come to use their preview feature quite a few times.
In case you don't know, the preview is a little JS pop-up that shows an image and some text when you hover a link.
So, you get a rough idea of what the thing is, and you don't have to load the full page (you can still if you click the link).

This feature is not in DF wiki, and I was thinking maybe it could be, as it greatly increase readability (since you don't have to open a new page, read the first few lines, go back, and waste time figuring out where you were; for every topic you're unaware of).

I'm not sure whether I should ask you, or Briess or anyone, but since you've made quite some wiki Extensions, I'll ask anyway.

So, do you think it could be a viable idea to turn this feature on ?

Here's a mediawiki tutorial on how to set this up, just in case :
[https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Popups]

Cheers ! =D
- Spriggans
Aug, 17 2018

:It does sound useful, but it claims to require MediaWiki 1.25+, so it'll probably have to wait until we finish upgrading. There are instructions for 1.24 or earlier in the article, though - I'm not sure how far back "or earlier" includes. The two extensions it depends on, TextExtracts and PageImages, require 1.23+ and 1.25+ respectively, so it's unlikely that it'll work on our current (pre-upgrade) setup.
:(I am a good person to ask, by the way, and <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> is probably a more convenient way to sign comments.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

== Aesthetically Pleasing Things ==

I know I posted this before but... do I have your permission to spice up some of the templates of tables? I could make some look better and "cleaner" than they do now. Also, are there any plans to change the default look of the wiki? I don't mean this in a nasty way, white with black text is pretty... generic. - [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:20, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

== Auto-Welcome ==

It looks like your bot is automatically welcoming editors. Unfortunately, due to the nature of rotating IP addresses, it appears your bot has [//www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/LethosorBot welcomed one anonymous user] 7 times in the last 5 days. Perhaps it would be best to restrict auto-welcoming to non-IP users?--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's the AutoWelcomeUser extension (just set up to attribute edits to my bot). I definitely agree that it should be changed, and I'll look into it. Fun fact: this was enabled on the old wiki, but I had written it for a ''slightly'' newer Mediawiki version, so I had forgotten about it since it didn't actually work until we upgraded. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
:I think this is fixed now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:57, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

== On "Acceptable" Commas ==

Regarding [//www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:World_generation&curid=32663&diff=245045&oldid=245044 this edit]:

Per the [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia Manual of Style] (referenced as [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#S|Rule S]]): "Where more than one style is acceptable under MoS, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason."

So, while that comma is indeed "acceptable" (or optional), editing to add that optional comma is not. I intentionally did not put a comma there when I added that sentence, and I believe my punctuational preference is at least as valid as ‎Silverwing235's.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

:I'm not convinced that comma is optional, but I didn't realize you had added that sentence (I thought it was part of the original quote from Toady before your changes, so I was mistakenly applying rule S there as well). Apologies, and it's your call as to what to do there. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:21, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

== Embark points ==

There's no page explaining embark points in-depth; can I make such a page? Or at least add it to the embark page? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
: I'd add it to the embark page since I'm not sure it warrants a separate page unless it's a ''lot'' of detail (i.e. more than the current embark page). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:43, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
:: With what I have planned, there's a ton of things I can go over which can fill a page. I can make a "workbench"/fake page and you can tell me if it's worthy or not. Also, is it possible to put things in "collapsable/expandable" tables to not badly stretch out pages? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:14, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
:: Sorry, one more thing. You know the "Urist likes [something] for their [something]."? Are these made up on the spot or is that info taken directly from somewhere? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:59, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
::: I'm not sure how much detail you can go into about just embark points, but sure, feel free to make a test page if you like and I can provide some input. I wouldn't put things in collapsible tables just because of page length, because pretty much no other page does that (except for some things that aren't really part of the content of a page, like nav boxes and raws). If you're referring to things like "Urist likes [creature]" from pages like [[DF2014:Cat]], those are generated from the raws. I'm not sure if that appears on any other types of pages. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:30, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

==Creature font==
Are you alright if I change the font of the letters in the creature list? Sorry to say this but that font is kinda ugly. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 01:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
:Are you talking about [[DF2014:Creature]] or something else? I personally think that page looks fine, but what does it look like on your end? It might be some cross-browser issue that we can try to sort out. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:56, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
::Yes I do mean that DF2014:Creature page. The font of the letters that resemble the creatures are this ugly "Times New Roman"-esque font that looks like an eyesore to me. It could be a much smoother looking font. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
:::I noticed the font looks ugly on Firefox and Edge but not in the Tor Browser. So yeah, there's a weird browser thing going on and I don't know how to fix things for specific browsers on wiki's... -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 20:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
::::I'm guessing you don't have the "Century" font installed, or accessible in those browsers for some reason. For reference, [https://i.imgur.com/wD6QMoG.png here] is what it looks like for me, definitely not Times. I'll see if it can be standardized. Does {{Raw Tile|c|6:0}} look ok to you? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:33, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::At some point in the possibly-recent past, those letters looked the same for me as it did you, but one day it just changed to the uglier font. Also, it's impossible to use the "Upload newer version of this file" function, as that always gives weird errors: Could not read or write file "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/6/6c/Biome_evil.png" due to insufficient permissions or missing directories/containers. I'm assuming I don't have access to do that? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:07, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::I figured out the setting that controlled the font, it's the "Allow pages to choose their own fonts, instead of your selections above" choice, but turning this option off can spoil the fonts everywhere else on other sites. There's something about (my) Firefox that's not recognizing the Century font, even though I have it. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah, not sure it's worth working around browser settings. Does the {{Raw Tile|c|6:0}} from above look ok to you or the same as the one on the creatures page? Also, that error is definitely not intentional; I'll look into it. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:57, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::The C there looks alright. Creature tile lists on other pages look fine as it's using the "Tile" template, so maybe something's wrong with the template being used in the creature page. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 12:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a custom template being used for those tables that specifies the font itself. I changed the font to fall back to the ones that {{tl|Tile}} uses. Does it look ok now? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::It does not. But when I use a different computer, it's fine there (still on Firefox). Yeah, I can't figure this out. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 07:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
{{od|10}}
I've cleared the cache on the server side (I don't remember if I did that before). If that still doesn't help, maybe clearing your browser's cache would help? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:29, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::Well, I cleared 1GB worth of data, but that didn't fix the issue? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

== BREAKING NEWS ==

Here comes Supernerd... the coolest and greatest editor ever on [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki]]. --[[User:Supernerd|Supernerd]] ([[User talk:Supernerd|talk]]) 10:47, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

== Proposal to translate the Wiki into Spanish ==

Good I am an expert player in the game and I would like to translate the wiki to help the Spanish community in this great game.
Should I translate it as I could?.
Here's my email for the answer: cheekonobreeko@gmail.com

== Just signal boosting on someone else's behalf... ==

...apparently a researcher with [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174850.0 research] on [[book]]s got themselves [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175133.0 locked out of the lab]. Any support for this?
--[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

== Minor server-side issues... ==

1. Broken(404) HTML links [[Quotes|here]].

2. Creature [[Giant earthworm|variation]] needs to be added [[Worm|here]].
--[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

:These aren't server-side issues - they can be fixed by editing the pages. In the first case, the forums moved from bay12games.com/forums to bay12forums.com/smf (I'm not sure when that happened, or if there used to be a redirect, but I would recommend {{tl|cite forum}} to make them future-proof). The second issue you pointed out happens when creature variations don't follow the typical naming pattern, but you can override the variations that the templates display. See [[blue jay]], [[bluejay man]], and [[giant bluejay]] for examples, and feel free to let me know if you have any questions about those templates. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:30, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
:Update: looks like there's also {{tl|forum link}} if you prefer to keep the text that the links currently use (for #1). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:33, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

== can't login... user:garrieirons ==

yeah I tried all the things and posted on the forum.

any advice on how to get a password reset?

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:GarrieIrons

Sorry if you're not an admin.

Cheers,
Garrie

Symptom:
When I click the reset password link, and enter my user name (GarrieIrons) it tells me:
'''A password reset email has already been sent, within the last 24 hours. To prevent abuse, only one password reset email will be sent per 24 hours.'''

Cheers again.
G

:Ok, so it sounds like you already requested a password reset - did you get an email? It should have come from do-not-reply@dwarffortresswiki.org (make sure it didn't get sent to your spam folder). If you don't have access to the email address you registered with anymore, I can try to reset it some other way. Also, where did you post on the forums? I didn't see anything from you on the wiki board. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:36, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
::To be clear, every password reset has resulted in the message above, but, no email. Can you tell me is it going to a hotmail, or a gmail address? If not, I'm stumped and I'll start a different account?
::Also...ok I looked at threads I guess. I coulda sworn at some time in the past I asked about this on the forum but I'm not finding it (only the thread I thought I responded to).
::G
:::OK I found a PM thread on the forum, from ages ago, referring me to you...but I'd never followed up... 🤦‍♂️
:::G.
:::Looks like your username at hotmail.com - do you still have access to that? I just sent you a test email from the wiki, so let me know if that goes through. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

== Weirdness ensues... ==

...Alright, maybe not, but then again...
[[Interaction_examples|this page]] is fine in Search, but spews redlinkery when linked to as if Ebola-infected - very puzzling.
---[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:16, 7 March 2020 (UTC) EDIT: And the mystery deepens, because apparently one has to be [[DF2014:Interaction_examples|very specific]] about phrasing...downright incantational,really...in order to get a clear result with this.

:If you're in a versioned namespace (like DF2014), links will be within that namespace by default; otherwise, they will use the main namespace. Looks like a [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Interaction_examples&action=history redirect was created] in this case and both of those links seem to work now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

== Obok Meatgod ==

Hey Lethesor, thanks for all the work you do for DFhack. I have a favour to ask. I was using the "random page" feature and I stumbled upon [[Obok Meatgod|this article]]. The article is about an adventure mode game from the Bay12 forums where some dude modded genitals into his game so he could [do some really vile stuff]. I don't mean to bug ''you'' about it, but I'm getting an internal error when I try to start a talk page on the article. Basically, can you delete this article? I'm all for some good shock humour, and I know DF stories can get pretty brutal, but this doesn't really seem like it's supposed to be funny. The forum page it links back to just reads like some edge-lord's fanfic power fantasy. Maybe I'm mistaken and this ''is'' relevant to DF, but if not, mind doing me a favour and just purging it from the wiki?
--[[Special:Contributions/130.211.1.83|130.211.1.83]] 00:33, 2 April 2020 (UTC) Jon
:I did a bit of research - given that it was deleted from Bay12 and DFFD, I think I'll follow suit and delete it from here too. (It's not permanent here - an admin could always get it back.) Thanks for bringing it to my attention. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:24, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
::Thanks Lethesor! [[Special:Contributions/35.191.8.35|35.191.8.35]] 17:07, 2 April 2020 (UTC) Jon

== Regarding a certain subst tag: ==

(Stop me if I miss anything, please.)

IIRC, its a since-deprecated holdover of some kind of Wikipedian affiliation, that is pretty much purge-on-sight when found in art licensing around here. The important question is, how to proceed, if at all, when evidence is discovered of apparent holdouts of that sort [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?search=subst%3A&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go further afield], outside the verified-for-deletion parameters? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

:I suggest [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Substitution MediaWiki's documentation] for information on what subst does. It's not specifically something that came from Wikipedia. One caveat is that if the template being substituted didn't exist when the page was saved, the subst: won't get replaced until you save the page again. However, in this case, it looks like I [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Licenses&diff=prev&oldid=249061 removed] the subst: part from where these templates were being used, so yes, on image pages, removing the "subst: prefix is fine.
:From the search results you linked, a lot of the subst occurrences appear to be in [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Wikitext_examples#HTML_tags HTML comments], so they won't get substituted when the page is saved. They also won't be displayed to readers, though. I suspect that's either stuff left over from version migrations or moving things to templates. I wouldn't put too much effort into dealing with those, unless you find something on a current-version page (in which case I'd say move things out of the comment if they're relevant or delete them if they're obsolete). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

== Lost password/email request ==

User: DDR
I've lost the email and password I apparently used to set up my account on this wiki, over a decade ago.

I'm [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=20574 DDR on the forum], which I still have my login for… and the mantis bugtracker, and DFFD.

Thank you. Sorry for the trouble.

:Sent a PM on the forums. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

== Further comment ==

It's hard to continue to [[wikipedia:WP:AGF|assume good faith]] in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASilverwing235&type=revision&diff=256707&oldid=256705 this case], when the user in question tries to bury discussion of their behavior. Obviously that tactic isn't very effective, but it's a far cry from the openness and transparency required for the wiki to function as a collaborative project. Anyway, I firmly believe in [[wikipedia:WP:AAGF|WP:AAGF]] as a part of [[wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]], which is part of the point I tried to raise in that discussion (which was then ''erased''). I'm linking these policies not because I think you're unfamiliar, but because I want to be clear on where I'm coming from. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 17:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

:We don't have many of our own policies on things like this, but I'll take a look at the ones you linked since I'm not very familiar with them, particularly AAGF. It occurs to me that some of my comments may have come across as not following AAGF, and I apologize for that - I was (and still am) trying to follow AGF on my end, but it is challenging in this situation. I didn't intend to imply that you were not. As for the talk page edits, [[wikipedia:WP:OWNTALK|WP:OWNTALK]] seems to match my thoughts on the matter. Silverwing235's comment appears (to me) to be a more explicit acknowledgement of the criticism you raised, rather than an implicit acknowledgement by just removing your comment. I think your criticism was understood, in any case. (I do plan to respond to the AIV discussion, but am not sure how best to do that yet. In any case, I appreciate your concern for the wiki, and would like to find a solution that's acceptable to everyone involved.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

::A few phrases in my comments below are bolded—it's really just to emphasize structure, not to alter tone.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 22:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::---
::I actually wasn't talking about you when I referred to AAGF and my comment (and its erasure). I meant that Silverwing235 has—on this occasion and others—assumed that other editors are ''not engaging'' in good faith, and also that they are ''not assuming'' good faith (as when Silverwing235 referred to me as a “saboteur”); and that Silverwing235's own actions (''immediate'' removal of comments in ongoing discussions from their talk page—I believe this argument stands irrespective of [[wikipedia:OWNTALK|OWNTALK]]) make it hard to ''continue'' to assume good faith on their part.
::And, related to that: I have a hard time parsing many of Silverwing235's comments throughout. They're often vague and overcooked to the point of obscurity. There's very little there—even after the comment removal—that acknowledges the existence of a dispute over either past or ongoing behaviors, let alone the need for specific behaviors to change (let alone ''why'' those behaviors are wrong, or ''how'' those behaviors should change). Where there ''is'', there is also language implying that the issue is really with ''other'' editors and ''their'' disagreement—as if other editors are wrong to raise an issue in the first place. But as Silverwing235's edit summaries (and, incidentally, User+Talk comments) have repeatedly implied, they edit things to suit their personal tastes, ''not'' necessarily to correct mistakes (which they sometimes ''assert'' they are doing, but as has been seen, they frequently are not).
::---
::Another example of the general problem raised in AIV popped up yesterday: while reviewing a substantial [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&curid=31137&diff=256715&oldid=247968 IP edit] (which, to me, looked good), I noticed that the edits immediately prior to it were Silverwing235's, made in late 2019 (soon after their dispute with Loci had ended in Loci's departure). And I quickly saw that [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014%3AClimate&type=revision&diff=247966&oldid=247965 this edit] was again, apparently, a “stylistic” change which Silverwing235 may honestly have believed necessary (for their own reasons), but which was [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&diff=prev&oldid=256717 actually erroneous]. This sort of edit is partially why I cited IDHT and CIR (which, ''together'', are relevant here, I think) in the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&oldid=256704 AIV discussion].
::And although I can understand why Voliol might have gotten the contrary impression in the AIV discussion, I'm not advocating a high bar for entry, here. I'm saying that if '''an editor has been told to avoid imposing their own judgment where they cannot articulate a rationale''' (such as when deciding whether [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Disruptive_Editing commas] need to be inserted before every occurence of [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256609 “if”] and “as”; whether a pair of parentheses should be [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Troubleshooting&diff=prev&oldid=256503 replaced] with an approximation to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Em_dash some other punctuation]; whether “he” and “she” should be [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256638 replaced], or [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256641 eliminated], or simply [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=247445&oldid=247317 left alone] where they already occur; or whether [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Fairy&diff=prev&oldid=256548 miscellaneous comments oblique to the rest of an article] are necessary or even appropriate), as Silverwing235 has, '''but they continue to do so''', then that presents a problem related to both judgment and behavior (hence IDHT, tangential to CIR).
::---
::Now, I hate to have these two discussions at the same time, but at this point, it would be counterproductive to fork it, so: I see that Silverwing235 has actually objected to the ''whole AIV discussion'' on the basis that they do not believe DE constitutes vandalism (which obviously it does not, in general). But as I acknowledged in my first contribution there, the prior AIV thread seemed to be the most appropriate place to make my comments due to the discussion which showed this user has faced similar criticism before. And, as I mentioned both above and in AIV, there is a pattern of civility issues which existed at least as early as that AIV thread. In particular, their [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Loci#Discussion_in.2C_supposedly.2C_proper_context... responses] to criticism from Loci and in this case have been a mixture of aggressive and [[wikipedia:WP:INDCRIT|passive-aggressive]]. And again, it's hard to assume good faith when critical comments are removed ''immediately'' and without either '''a discussion''' or a '''clear''' and '''substantial''' '''acknowledgment''' that those comments referred to an ongoing pattern of behavior that must change (change ''what'', change ''how'', change ''why''). I.e., yes, users control their own talk pages, but that doesn't prevent their changes from being interpreted one way or another; and in this case, it's hard not to interpret Silverwing235's changes as ''avoiding the issue''. I understand their stated desire to avoid content which [[wikipedia:WP:MASTODON|affects them emotionally]], but this is about conduct as much as it is about content.
::---
::The only reason I've raised this is to avoid continued unease. I don't like writing about disputes, and I prefer to think of the wiki community as inclusive rather than exclusive. But again, it's harder to want to edit if this behavior—not just from Silverwing235, but from ''any'' editor—is unconstrained except by laborious trial and error (a huge time ''and energy'' suck, when you consider putting up with breaks from CIVIL). And I'm not alone in this (which I mention only to emphasize that this is not personal—and I'm ''not'' invoking a silent majority, whether one exists or not, and ultimately, it's not just about this one editor).
::---
::In any case, I appreciate your participation in the matter and in conveying suggestions about specific edits to this editor.
::'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 22:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Point one: Yes, the notion about 'a more explicit acknowledgement' was accurate. A personal policy that I came up with re my talk page: 'If it would cause me significant emotional distress, either immediately or at any time during a review of the content, (aka: 'Nope, not having ''that'' around, causing trouble') it gets removed. If, IMHO, the removal itself would raise questions (as it appears to have done in this case) it will at least get a hopefully emotionally-neutral summary and acknowledgement of the thing that caused my upset to begin with. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

== Redirect ==

Hello. I noticed in the recent changes you reverted the edit on [[Textile Industry]], and I realized that my edit on [[Expedition Leader]] falls in the same category. The problem is that, as long as they exist, those pages will always appear on autocomplete, and they won't redirect properly if left as is. So I propose that until a decision is made for them to be deleted, that they be allowed to redirect properly to not confuse people who find them through autocomplete, like me. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 20:51, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:The underlying cause here is a Mediawiki bug with double redirects, discussed in detail at [[DF:REDIR]]'s talk page. Making ''any'' sort of edit to the first page in the chain will fix broken double redirects, so even though I reverted your edit, [[Textile Industry]] redirects correctly now, even from the search bar. The other important point is that you need to use "cv" for the namespace in redirect targets - hardcoding a specific version like "DF2014" will have the wrong behavior when we add a new namespace. In this case, I have deleted the page you edited, since [[Expedition leader]] (lowercase L) already exists and turns up in search results (and follows [[DF:Rule N]]). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::Very well. Thank you for your time. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 21:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
:::I should clarify: you're welcome to fix redirects like this that you notice, as long as you use "cv" (and there's a reminder that appears above the edit box when editing pages in the main namespace, in case that's useful). If you notice redirects whose only difference is capitalization, feel free to tag them for deletion with {{tl|delete}} and I can handle them. It occurs to me now that [[Textile Industry]] is another example of that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

== Drastic error in judgement ensues.. ==

Derped by starting [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014_Talk:Block this up], in a way it turned out I rather shouldn't have - mind cleaning up? Thanks. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 19:43, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:I'm not sure - what are you asking me to do? I'm hesitant to remove a discussion entirely, but if it's redundant to one on another talk page, I suppose I could archive it. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

...Yeah, archival was what I meant - one is always slightly frazzled when caught prepping to sign off for the night. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 09:49, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

== Random/cv ==

Not that I want more clutter, but what do you think about putting a [[Special:Random/cv]] link in the sidebar? '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 16:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

:Do you always want that there, or just in the current version's namespace? For reference, there are custom links added in some namespaces already, like [[Special:Random/Masterwork]] on [[Masterwork:Orc]], so a fourth "random" link on that sidebar could add some clutter. I would lean towards doing this just for versioned pages, but I'm not sure what you think is best. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:55, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

::I don't know. As I said, I'm also not interested in more clutter. Personally, I've frequently been using a bookmark to random/cv just to get a sense of what's on the wiki these days (since I've been “away”/uninvolved). Obviously I don't think that's a good reason for the wiki to change anything, though. When I wrote this on your talk page, my thinking was this: if I'm a new player (or a former one), and I want to know ''what there is'' in this huge game that I don't already know everything about, maybe I'll go to the wiki and click "random page" a few times to satisfy my curiosity. I can always click it again if I end up on something in the Masterwork: namespace (or, if it's in v0.31 etc., just click the link in the Av template). But I'll have to do that ''most'' of the time, since articles in non-cv namespaces outnumber articles in cv. (Right?) I.e., I think my suggestion is only really relevant (at least from the point-of-view of my reasons for bringing it up at all) on the landing/main page. I'm ''not'' attached to it enough to say it should go everywhere. If there's no convenient way to exclude it from pages where there are already namespace-specific random links in the sidebar, then I'm not about to suggest anyone should spend their limited time on the planet worrying about it after all.
::'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 18:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

== Handling "!!science!!"-style additions ==

Sorry to repeatedly bring things to you—I don't really know who does what here now, or if there's a discussion board somewhere this belongs on (other than the talk page for just one of the related articles). Could you take a look at [[DF2014_Talk:Stress#SalfordSal_and_0.47.05|this discussion]]? As I mention there, there are a couple of other edits by that IP user at around the same time that (at a glance) look like they are probably similar. In the case of [[stress]], at least, the content of the article prior to the additions is now buried under a single user's experimental results for a game version one year out-of-date.
'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 18:36, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Lethosor

2021-02-26T18:36:36Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Handling "!!science!!"-style additions */ new section

{{User:Lethosor/header}}
{{Archive|
* [[/archive1|Archive 1 (February-August 2013)]]
* [[/archive2|Archive 2 (Sept. 2013 - May 2014)]]
}}
__TOC__
{{clear}}

==Bot requests==
<div style="" class="plainlinks">
[{{fullurl:User talk:Lethosor|action=edit&section=1&editintro={{urlencode:User:Lethosor/edit intro/bot}}}} '''Add a new request''']
</div>

=== Underpopulated categories ===

Many categories in the DF2014 namespace don't list some of the pages that have the category link. An empty edit on a page (well, any edit) will correct this, but only for that page. This sounds like a job for a bot. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 19:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
:I'm pretty sure that's a cache problem, so I'll try rebuilding link tables on the server side and see if that helps (it would probably be a lot faster than sending a bot around to null-edit every page). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
::This has been fixed. The problem was that the server that actually runs the job queue was still using the old configuration (without the DF2014 namespace). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:17, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

== Diagram ==

Take a look over [[DF talk:diagram|here]]. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 15:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

== Ceramic Industry page assistance. ==

(Message here) --[[User:DorfyDave|DorfyDave]] ([[User talk:DorfyDave|talk]]) 04:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the help with the ceramic industry stuff.

I see what you are doing with the thumbnail workflows on other pages, so if you would rather it be small and let the reader expand it, that would be fine.

I was thinking that the pages looked better with the intro section before the regular content, keeping it separate from the auto TOC / Header listed content, but if you prefer that everything follow the layered header format, that's fine.

:My primary concern was the wrapping caused by inserting the full-size flowchart next to a section. It looks like you've addressed that by splitting up the flowchart, which looks good to me. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

== Removing/restoring [[Main:Fruit]] ==

Not that I am protesting it, but why exactly did you remove and then restore the [[Main:Fruit]] page? Because to me, all that happened now is that the creation entry on the page's history is gone, which isn't really anything notable either.
--{{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|13:03|August 26, 2014}} 13:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
:I deleted it at first because I didn't realize AutoRedirect wasn't handling section redirects properly, then restored it when I noticed it was broken. That article's [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Fruit&action=history history] still shows your revision, so I'm not sure what you mean - is it missing from [[Special:RecentChanges]]? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
::The creation entry I was talking about was actually the first entry, and the entry that is now the only one was the second before you removed it. When I created the page I first had it directly redirect to [[cv:Tree#Fruit]], which after testing didn't work. I usually save the page when the preview doesn't show a red link and the link is correct, and after saving I test it, This time, however, the link in the preview was blue and correct, but actually following the redirect only led to [[cv:Tree]] instead of [[cv:Tree#Fruit]]. The entry you are seeing now is the result of fixing this by making it into a double redirect through [[cv:Fruit]].
:::It looks to me like your first edit was to [[DF2014:Fruit]] - when [[Main:Fruit]] didn't exist, it would have automatically redirected to [[DF2014:Fruit]], so it might have appeared to exist when it didn't. (The problem here is that I made AutoRedirect follow redirect chains internally, since Mediawiki's maximum-redirect setting is buggy, so a nonexistent [[Main:Fruit]] would actually redirect to what [[cv:Fruit]] redirects to - the problem is that it ignores sections at the moment, so section redirects will need to be manually created until I can fix that.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

== settings-manager ==

I don't know where to put it because I don't have a github account and don't know if you have a personal thread for your scripts like the others, but couldn't you add a TEXT mode entry in line 116 of your settings-manager script?
--[[Special:Contributions/78.250.50.116|78.250.50.116]] 04:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
:I originally excluded it because it only works on Linux, but I'll add it back for Linux users. Thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

== Interesting glitch with redirects ==

I went to see what "Candy" was by going to a page named "Candy", and I found out that it meant Adamantine. But I saw that I got redirected to [[v0.34:Adamantine]], which shouldn't happen seeing as mainspace redirects should always go to the cv namespace. So I went back to fix it, and I saw that [[main:Candy]] redirected to [[main:Adamantine]], so I went there to fix it. But that page redirected properly to [[DF2014:Adamantine]]. This is where it gets interesting.

So when you go to [[main:Candy]], you get redirected to [[main:Adamantine]] which in turn redirects to [[DF2014:Adamantine]]. But - for some reason, you don't get sent to [[DF2014:Adamantine]], but to [[v0.34:Adamantine]]. Going to [[main:Adamantine]] in the first place redirects you to [[DF2014:Adamantine]] properly.

I have no idea how this happens, and since you maintain most of the wiki, I think you would be the right person to tell this to.
--{{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|13:42|November 01, 2014}} 13:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

:My best guess is that the [[Main:Candy]] redirect is cached and still points to [[v0.34:Adamantine]]. Our [[DF:REDIR|new policy]] is to keep redirects in versioned namespaces, so feel free to tag any broken redirects (in the main namespace) that you find with {{tl|bad redirect}} and I'll delete them. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 14:48, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

:I just saw a redlink on the exploratory tunnels page(redlink to [[DF2014:Break]]) and went to create it, when I discovered that the pages for Break existed for 23a and 40d, but not for 34.11 and 40.x. I went to check those to import content, and they turned out to be redirects. So I just redirected [[DF2014:Break]] to [[DF2014:On break]] and when I went to create additional redirects in the mainspace, I found that [[main:Break]] redirects to [[main:On break]] which redirects to [[cv:On break]]. But, again, it ultimately did not redirect to cv:On break but to v0.34:Break. I think that if it is indeed a cache problem we should rebuild redirect caches. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:08|November 02, 2014}}
:PS: Or just batch-delete all of this kind of redirects. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:09|November 02, 2014}}
:I don't like "bumping" this message like this, but since it's rather annoying, and ten days have been since I told you, almost all of these redirects are broken. Take a look at [[main:Aluminium]] for example, it goes to its 34.11 page. I think that it goes like this; when a page in the mainspace redirects to another page in the mainspace, which in turn goes to a cv space page, it goes to 0.34 instead of the current version. Going to the main>cv redirect initially does not cause this glitch. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:46|November 12, 2014}}
::It would be helpful if you could add {{tl|bad redirect}} to those pages (preferably before the "#REDIRECT" line) so I can delete them. I'm not sure what's causing the problem, but I'll see if I can override broken redirects with the AutoRedirect extension as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

== Migrated citations ==

As seen on [[DF2014:Dragonfire]], migrated citations can become confused, pointing to non-existent pages. I'm not sure how to fix it, but in general citations shouldn't automatically change what they are pointing at.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 18:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

== <nowiki>{{ArticleVersion}}</nowiki> bug ==

I just found another very strange bug regarding the articleversion template. The more research I did on it, the weirder it got. The bug is that when you are not logged in, and you visit a non-DF2014 page with an av template, the latest version shows as v0.40.16 instead of v0.40.18. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|10:17|November 25, 2014}}
PS: This bug does not replicate when you are logged in. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|10:19|November 25, 2014}}
:This is because pages are cached for logged-out users. You can refresh individual pages by adding "?action=purge" to the end of the URL (or possibly by null-editing them). It appears to occur in DF2014 pages as well - [[DF2014:Hemp]], for example. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

== Lost password request ==

I've forgotten my password. User: Bumber

:You don't seem to have an email address associated with your account. I sent a message to Bumber on the forums, assuming that's you. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:24, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks.

== Redirects ==

Thank you for the correction. I felt I might be doing it wrong but couldn't find an example of it done right to copy. Now I know. :) [[User:Volatar|Volatar]] ([[User talk:Volatar|talk]]) 16:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

== v0.42.05 raws update ==

Just a friendly reminder that the wiki raws need updated to pick up the [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Page_request/List&diff=222917&oldid=222913 new critters in v0.42.05]. It would also be nice if your bot could auto-create the new creature pages so we don't end up with [[back bear man]] and the like.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

:Quietust updated the extension, but I'm having trouble deploying the changes for some reason (which Emily can hopefully figure out). I don't know if I'll have enough time this/next week to write a script to create the new creature pages - if not, Quietust might have something still laying around from 0.34/0.40. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:45, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

== Page move reminder ==

[[DF2014:Box]] to [[DF2014:Container]] please. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 23:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

:Done. It took me a second to figure out what the issue was - I'm surprised Mediawiki wouldn't let you move a page over another one that was just a redirect. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
::Thanks! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:50, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

== v0.43.05 raws update ==

Just a friendly reminder that the wiki raws need updated to pick up the changes through v0.43.05.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

:Done. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:43, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

== Multiple redirects leads to incorrect namespace ==

Discussion here: [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Centralized_Discussion#Solution_for_this]] [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 10:49, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

We had an attack on August 3rd. [[Talk:Main Page (fix plz)]] ‎needs moved back to Talk:Main Page, and the rest of [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/Etihand the vandal's handiwork] can just be deleted. I can't think of any legitimate reason a user would need to move Talk:Main Page, so it should probably be move-locked to prevent future hijacks.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 15:53, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

:It should be cleaned up now. Sorry for the delay there. [[Main Page]] was already move-protected, but apparently that didn't apply to the talk page, so both should be move-protected now too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

== Sorry, I need a password reset ==

I just logged in, saw the post about passwords needing to be changed. (Feeling all smart since I just setup a password manager) I updated my password, only to realize I didn't save the new password correctly in the manager. I tried to reset it but the wiki had a note saying to contact you since it can't do outbound email right now.

My user name is [[Frobnic8]].

My most notable contribution here are the PDF versions of the old Bronzemurder illustration by Tim Denee: [[Bronzemurder]]

The files are still hosted at my website. To prove it's me, I've also left you a note at http://eldritch.org/erskin/temp/df_wiki.txt

Sorry for the hassle, but if you could set me a temporary password or send me a link to a password reset to the associated email address for the account, that'd be awesome.

Thanks!

--[[Special:Contributions/70.163.4.102|70.163.4.102]] 15:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Done —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks! --[[User:Frobnic8|Frobnic8]] ([[User talk:Frobnic8|talk]]) 02:51, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

== Password reset ==

I could have sworn I did this already, but now there's no sign of my edit here. Dunno what happened to it. Can I please get a password reset for user Urist McDorf. I believe the email info associated is still good (j*y@y*m). Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/108.49.199.220|108.49.199.220]] 06:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

== Totally failed to make an account ==

Really think I did everything right.

The Captcha app you are using says it "shutdown" on 3-31-2018 so i'm wondering if that's the issue. – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:216.201.251.142|216.201.251.142]]

:Yeah, we know about it. Emi and Briess are working on some upgrades, and we'll try to upgrade the captcha once it's done. In the meantime, you can PM me on the forums (or email me at gmail.com) and I think I can set up an account for you. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

== Chemist Page Quality Rating ==

The quality rating of the [[chemist]] page is listed as *Superior*, despite being a stub. I can't even decrease the quality down to +Fine+ using the rating script.
I added the memory attribute as stated by Toady's recent FotF reply, and I'll insert the relevant [[topics]] for the skill, but there's probably a lot more work to be done.
--[[User:Bumber|Bumber]] ([[User talk:Bumber|talk]]) 06:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

:The "override" link [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Chemist&action=history worked for me]. You have to click on the rating at the top that you want to select, then submit. The calculated score is unreliable, to say the least. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

::I couldn't figure out how the override worked and just assumed it was an admin thing. Didn't realize you had to click one of the quality options at the top. —[[User:Bumber|Bumber]] ([[User talk:Bumber|talk]]) 22:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

== [Proposition] - Wiki preview popups ==

Hi there.

I've read quite a bit of wikipedia these last few days (the real wikipedia website), and I've come to use their preview feature quite a few times.
In case you don't know, the preview is a little JS pop-up that shows an image and some text when you hover a link.
So, you get a rough idea of what the thing is, and you don't have to load the full page (you can still if you click the link).

This feature is not in DF wiki, and I was thinking maybe it could be, as it greatly increase readability (since you don't have to open a new page, read the first few lines, go back, and waste time figuring out where you were; for every topic you're unaware of).

I'm not sure whether I should ask you, or Briess or anyone, but since you've made quite some wiki Extensions, I'll ask anyway.

So, do you think it could be a viable idea to turn this feature on ?

Here's a mediawiki tutorial on how to set this up, just in case :
[https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Popups]

Cheers ! =D
- Spriggans
Aug, 17 2018

:It does sound useful, but it claims to require MediaWiki 1.25+, so it'll probably have to wait until we finish upgrading. There are instructions for 1.24 or earlier in the article, though - I'm not sure how far back "or earlier" includes. The two extensions it depends on, TextExtracts and PageImages, require 1.23+ and 1.25+ respectively, so it's unlikely that it'll work on our current (pre-upgrade) setup.
:(I am a good person to ask, by the way, and <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> is probably a more convenient way to sign comments.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

== Aesthetically Pleasing Things ==

I know I posted this before but... do I have your permission to spice up some of the templates of tables? I could make some look better and "cleaner" than they do now. Also, are there any plans to change the default look of the wiki? I don't mean this in a nasty way, white with black text is pretty... generic. - [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:20, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

== Auto-Welcome ==

It looks like your bot is automatically welcoming editors. Unfortunately, due to the nature of rotating IP addresses, it appears your bot has [//www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/LethosorBot welcomed one anonymous user] 7 times in the last 5 days. Perhaps it would be best to restrict auto-welcoming to non-IP users?--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's the AutoWelcomeUser extension (just set up to attribute edits to my bot). I definitely agree that it should be changed, and I'll look into it. Fun fact: this was enabled on the old wiki, but I had written it for a ''slightly'' newer Mediawiki version, so I had forgotten about it since it didn't actually work until we upgraded. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
:I think this is fixed now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:57, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

== On "Acceptable" Commas ==

Regarding [//www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:World_generation&curid=32663&diff=245045&oldid=245044 this edit]:

Per the [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia Manual of Style] (referenced as [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#S|Rule S]]): "Where more than one style is acceptable under MoS, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason."

So, while that comma is indeed "acceptable" (or optional), editing to add that optional comma is not. I intentionally did not put a comma there when I added that sentence, and I believe my punctuational preference is at least as valid as ‎Silverwing235's.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

:I'm not convinced that comma is optional, but I didn't realize you had added that sentence (I thought it was part of the original quote from Toady before your changes, so I was mistakenly applying rule S there as well). Apologies, and it's your call as to what to do there. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:21, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

== Embark points ==

There's no page explaining embark points in-depth; can I make such a page? Or at least add it to the embark page? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
: I'd add it to the embark page since I'm not sure it warrants a separate page unless it's a ''lot'' of detail (i.e. more than the current embark page). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:43, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
:: With what I have planned, there's a ton of things I can go over which can fill a page. I can make a "workbench"/fake page and you can tell me if it's worthy or not. Also, is it possible to put things in "collapsable/expandable" tables to not badly stretch out pages? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:14, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
:: Sorry, one more thing. You know the "Urist likes [something] for their [something]."? Are these made up on the spot or is that info taken directly from somewhere? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:59, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
::: I'm not sure how much detail you can go into about just embark points, but sure, feel free to make a test page if you like and I can provide some input. I wouldn't put things in collapsible tables just because of page length, because pretty much no other page does that (except for some things that aren't really part of the content of a page, like nav boxes and raws). If you're referring to things like "Urist likes [creature]" from pages like [[DF2014:Cat]], those are generated from the raws. I'm not sure if that appears on any other types of pages. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:30, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

==Creature font==
Are you alright if I change the font of the letters in the creature list? Sorry to say this but that font is kinda ugly. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 01:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
:Are you talking about [[DF2014:Creature]] or something else? I personally think that page looks fine, but what does it look like on your end? It might be some cross-browser issue that we can try to sort out. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:56, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
::Yes I do mean that DF2014:Creature page. The font of the letters that resemble the creatures are this ugly "Times New Roman"-esque font that looks like an eyesore to me. It could be a much smoother looking font. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
:::I noticed the font looks ugly on Firefox and Edge but not in the Tor Browser. So yeah, there's a weird browser thing going on and I don't know how to fix things for specific browsers on wiki's... -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 20:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
::::I'm guessing you don't have the "Century" font installed, or accessible in those browsers for some reason. For reference, [https://i.imgur.com/wD6QMoG.png here] is what it looks like for me, definitely not Times. I'll see if it can be standardized. Does {{Raw Tile|c|6:0}} look ok to you? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:33, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::At some point in the possibly-recent past, those letters looked the same for me as it did you, but one day it just changed to the uglier font. Also, it's impossible to use the "Upload newer version of this file" function, as that always gives weird errors: Could not read or write file "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/6/6c/Biome_evil.png" due to insufficient permissions or missing directories/containers. I'm assuming I don't have access to do that? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:07, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::I figured out the setting that controlled the font, it's the "Allow pages to choose their own fonts, instead of your selections above" choice, but turning this option off can spoil the fonts everywhere else on other sites. There's something about (my) Firefox that's not recognizing the Century font, even though I have it. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah, not sure it's worth working around browser settings. Does the {{Raw Tile|c|6:0}} from above look ok to you or the same as the one on the creatures page? Also, that error is definitely not intentional; I'll look into it. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:57, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::The C there looks alright. Creature tile lists on other pages look fine as it's using the "Tile" template, so maybe something's wrong with the template being used in the creature page. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 12:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a custom template being used for those tables that specifies the font itself. I changed the font to fall back to the ones that {{tl|Tile}} uses. Does it look ok now? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::It does not. But when I use a different computer, it's fine there (still on Firefox). Yeah, I can't figure this out. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 07:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
{{od|10}}
I've cleared the cache on the server side (I don't remember if I did that before). If that still doesn't help, maybe clearing your browser's cache would help? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:29, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::Well, I cleared 1GB worth of data, but that didn't fix the issue? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

== BREAKING NEWS ==

Here comes Supernerd... the coolest and greatest editor ever on [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki]]. --[[User:Supernerd|Supernerd]] ([[User talk:Supernerd|talk]]) 10:47, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

== Proposal to translate the Wiki into Spanish ==

Good I am an expert player in the game and I would like to translate the wiki to help the Spanish community in this great game.
Should I translate it as I could?.
Here's my email for the answer: cheekonobreeko@gmail.com

== Just signal boosting on someone else's behalf... ==

...apparently a researcher with [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174850.0 research] on [[book]]s got themselves [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175133.0 locked out of the lab]. Any support for this?
--[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

== Minor server-side issues... ==

1. Broken(404) HTML links [[Quotes|here]].

2. Creature [[Giant earthworm|variation]] needs to be added [[Worm|here]].
--[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

:These aren't server-side issues - they can be fixed by editing the pages. In the first case, the forums moved from bay12games.com/forums to bay12forums.com/smf (I'm not sure when that happened, or if there used to be a redirect, but I would recommend {{tl|cite forum}} to make them future-proof). The second issue you pointed out happens when creature variations don't follow the typical naming pattern, but you can override the variations that the templates display. See [[blue jay]], [[bluejay man]], and [[giant bluejay]] for examples, and feel free to let me know if you have any questions about those templates. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:30, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
:Update: looks like there's also {{tl|forum link}} if you prefer to keep the text that the links currently use (for #1). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:33, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

== can't login... user:garrieirons ==

yeah I tried all the things and posted on the forum.

any advice on how to get a password reset?

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:GarrieIrons

Sorry if you're not an admin.

Cheers,
Garrie

Symptom:
When I click the reset password link, and enter my user name (GarrieIrons) it tells me:
'''A password reset email has already been sent, within the last 24 hours. To prevent abuse, only one password reset email will be sent per 24 hours.'''

Cheers again.
G

:Ok, so it sounds like you already requested a password reset - did you get an email? It should have come from do-not-reply@dwarffortresswiki.org (make sure it didn't get sent to your spam folder). If you don't have access to the email address you registered with anymore, I can try to reset it some other way. Also, where did you post on the forums? I didn't see anything from you on the wiki board. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:36, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
::To be clear, every password reset has resulted in the message above, but, no email. Can you tell me is it going to a hotmail, or a gmail address? If not, I'm stumped and I'll start a different account?
::Also...ok I looked at threads I guess. I coulda sworn at some time in the past I asked about this on the forum but I'm not finding it (only the thread I thought I responded to).
::G
:::OK I found a PM thread on the forum, from ages ago, referring me to you...but I'd never followed up... 🤦‍♂️
:::G.
:::Looks like your username at hotmail.com - do you still have access to that? I just sent you a test email from the wiki, so let me know if that goes through. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

== Weirdness ensues... ==

...Alright, maybe not, but then again...
[[Interaction_examples|this page]] is fine in Search, but spews redlinkery when linked to as if Ebola-infected - very puzzling.
---[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:16, 7 March 2020 (UTC) EDIT: And the mystery deepens, because apparently one has to be [[DF2014:Interaction_examples|very specific]] about phrasing...downright incantational,really...in order to get a clear result with this.

:If you're in a versioned namespace (like DF2014), links will be within that namespace by default; otherwise, they will use the main namespace. Looks like a [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Interaction_examples&action=history redirect was created] in this case and both of those links seem to work now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

== Obok Meatgod ==

Hey Lethesor, thanks for all the work you do for DFhack. I have a favour to ask. I was using the "random page" feature and I stumbled upon [[Obok Meatgod|this article]]. The article is about an adventure mode game from the Bay12 forums where some dude modded genitals into his game so he could [do some really vile stuff]. I don't mean to bug ''you'' about it, but I'm getting an internal error when I try to start a talk page on the article. Basically, can you delete this article? I'm all for some good shock humour, and I know DF stories can get pretty brutal, but this doesn't really seem like it's supposed to be funny. The forum page it links back to just reads like some edge-lord's fanfic power fantasy. Maybe I'm mistaken and this ''is'' relevant to DF, but if not, mind doing me a favour and just purging it from the wiki?
--[[Special:Contributions/130.211.1.83|130.211.1.83]] 00:33, 2 April 2020 (UTC) Jon
:I did a bit of research - given that it was deleted from Bay12 and DFFD, I think I'll follow suit and delete it from here too. (It's not permanent here - an admin could always get it back.) Thanks for bringing it to my attention. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:24, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
::Thanks Lethesor! [[Special:Contributions/35.191.8.35|35.191.8.35]] 17:07, 2 April 2020 (UTC) Jon

== Regarding a certain subst tag: ==

(Stop me if I miss anything, please.)

IIRC, its a since-deprecated holdover of some kind of Wikipedian affiliation, that is pretty much purge-on-sight when found in art licensing around here. The important question is, how to proceed, if at all, when evidence is discovered of apparent holdouts of that sort [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?search=subst%3A&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go further afield], outside the verified-for-deletion parameters? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

:I suggest [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Substitution MediaWiki's documentation] for information on what subst does. It's not specifically something that came from Wikipedia. One caveat is that if the template being substituted didn't exist when the page was saved, the subst: won't get replaced until you save the page again. However, in this case, it looks like I [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Licenses&diff=prev&oldid=249061 removed] the subst: part from where these templates were being used, so yes, on image pages, removing the "subst: prefix is fine.
:From the search results you linked, a lot of the subst occurrences appear to be in [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Wikitext_examples#HTML_tags HTML comments], so they won't get substituted when the page is saved. They also won't be displayed to readers, though. I suspect that's either stuff left over from version migrations or moving things to templates. I wouldn't put too much effort into dealing with those, unless you find something on a current-version page (in which case I'd say move things out of the comment if they're relevant or delete them if they're obsolete). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

== Lost password/email request ==

User: DDR
I've lost the email and password I apparently used to set up my account on this wiki, over a decade ago.

I'm [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=20574 DDR on the forum], which I still have my login for… and the mantis bugtracker, and DFFD.

Thank you. Sorry for the trouble.

:Sent a PM on the forums. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

== Further comment ==

It's hard to continue to [[wikipedia:WP:AGF|assume good faith]] in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASilverwing235&type=revision&diff=256707&oldid=256705 this case], when the user in question tries to bury discussion of their behavior. Obviously that tactic isn't very effective, but it's a far cry from the openness and transparency required for the wiki to function as a collaborative project. Anyway, I firmly believe in [[wikipedia:WP:AAGF|WP:AAGF]] as a part of [[wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]], which is part of the point I tried to raise in that discussion (which was then ''erased''). I'm linking these policies not because I think you're unfamiliar, but because I want to be clear on where I'm coming from. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 17:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

:We don't have many of our own policies on things like this, but I'll take a look at the ones you linked since I'm not very familiar with them, particularly AAGF. It occurs to me that some of my comments may have come across as not following AAGF, and I apologize for that - I was (and still am) trying to follow AGF on my end, but it is challenging in this situation. I didn't intend to imply that you were not. As for the talk page edits, [[wikipedia:WP:OWNTALK|WP:OWNTALK]] seems to match my thoughts on the matter. Silverwing235's comment appears (to me) to be a more explicit acknowledgement of the criticism you raised, rather than an implicit acknowledgement by just removing your comment. I think your criticism was understood, in any case. (I do plan to respond to the AIV discussion, but am not sure how best to do that yet. In any case, I appreciate your concern for the wiki, and would like to find a solution that's acceptable to everyone involved.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

::A few phrases in my comments below are bolded—it's really just to emphasize structure, not to alter tone.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 22:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::---
::I actually wasn't talking about you when I referred to AAGF and my comment (and its erasure). I meant that Silverwing235 has—on this occasion and others—assumed that other editors are ''not engaging'' in good faith, and also that they are ''not assuming'' good faith (as when Silverwing235 referred to me as a “saboteur”); and that Silverwing235's own actions (''immediate'' removal of comments in ongoing discussions from their talk page—I believe this argument stands irrespective of [[wikipedia:OWNTALK|OWNTALK]]) make it hard to ''continue'' to assume good faith on their part.
::And, related to that: I have a hard time parsing many of Silverwing235's comments throughout. They're often vague and overcooked to the point of obscurity. There's very little there—even after the comment removal—that acknowledges the existence of a dispute over either past or ongoing behaviors, let alone the need for specific behaviors to change (let alone ''why'' those behaviors are wrong, or ''how'' those behaviors should change). Where there ''is'', there is also language implying that the issue is really with ''other'' editors and ''their'' disagreement—as if other editors are wrong to raise an issue in the first place. But as Silverwing235's edit summaries (and, incidentally, User+Talk comments) have repeatedly implied, they edit things to suit their personal tastes, ''not'' necessarily to correct mistakes (which they sometimes ''assert'' they are doing, but as has been seen, they frequently are not).
::---
::Another example of the general problem raised in AIV popped up yesterday: while reviewing a substantial [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&curid=31137&diff=256715&oldid=247968 IP edit] (which, to me, looked good), I noticed that the edits immediately prior to it were Silverwing235's, made in late 2019 (soon after their dispute with Loci had ended in Loci's departure). And I quickly saw that [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014%3AClimate&type=revision&diff=247966&oldid=247965 this edit] was again, apparently, a “stylistic” change which Silverwing235 may honestly have believed necessary (for their own reasons), but which was [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&diff=prev&oldid=256717 actually erroneous]. This sort of edit is partially why I cited IDHT and CIR (which, ''together'', are relevant here, I think) in the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&oldid=256704 AIV discussion].
::And although I can understand why Voliol might have gotten the contrary impression in the AIV discussion, I'm not advocating a high bar for entry, here. I'm saying that if '''an editor has been told to avoid imposing their own judgment where they cannot articulate a rationale''' (such as when deciding whether [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Disruptive_Editing commas] need to be inserted before every occurence of [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256609 “if”] and “as”; whether a pair of parentheses should be [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Troubleshooting&diff=prev&oldid=256503 replaced] with an approximation to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Em_dash some other punctuation]; whether “he” and “she” should be [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256638 replaced], or [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256641 eliminated], or simply [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=247445&oldid=247317 left alone] where they already occur; or whether [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Fairy&diff=prev&oldid=256548 miscellaneous comments oblique to the rest of an article] are necessary or even appropriate), as Silverwing235 has, '''but they continue to do so''', then that presents a problem related to both judgment and behavior (hence IDHT, tangential to CIR).
::---
::Now, I hate to have these two discussions at the same time, but at this point, it would be counterproductive to fork it, so: I see that Silverwing235 has actually objected to the ''whole AIV discussion'' on the basis that they do not believe DE constitutes vandalism (which obviously it does not, in general). But as I acknowledged in my first contribution there, the prior AIV thread seemed to be the most appropriate place to make my comments due to the discussion which showed this user has faced similar criticism before. And, as I mentioned both above and in AIV, there is a pattern of civility issues which existed at least as early as that AIV thread. In particular, their [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Loci#Discussion_in.2C_supposedly.2C_proper_context... responses] to criticism from Loci and in this case have been a mixture of aggressive and [[wikipedia:WP:INDCRIT|passive-aggressive]]. And again, it's hard to assume good faith when critical comments are removed ''immediately'' and without either '''a discussion''' or a '''clear''' and '''substantial''' '''acknowledgment''' that those comments referred to an ongoing pattern of behavior that must change (change ''what'', change ''how'', change ''why''). I.e., yes, users control their own talk pages, but that doesn't prevent their changes from being interpreted one way or another; and in this case, it's hard not to interpret Silverwing235's changes as ''avoiding the issue''. I understand their stated desire to avoid content which [[wikipedia:WP:MASTODON|affects them emotionally]], but this is about conduct as much as it is about content.
::---
::The only reason I've raised this is to avoid continued unease. I don't like writing about disputes, and I prefer to think of the wiki community as inclusive rather than exclusive. But again, it's harder to want to edit if this behavior—not just from Silverwing235, but from ''any'' editor—is unconstrained except by laborious trial and error (a huge time ''and energy'' suck, when you consider putting up with breaks from CIVIL). And I'm not alone in this (which I mention only to emphasize that this is not personal—and I'm ''not'' invoking a silent majority, whether one exists or not, and ultimately, it's not just about this one editor).
::---
::In any case, I appreciate your participation in the matter and in conveying suggestions about specific edits to this editor.
::'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 22:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Point one: Yes, the notion about 'a more explicit acknowledgement' was accurate. A personal policy that I came up with re my talk page: 'If it would cause me significant emotional distress, either immediately or at any time during a review of the content, (aka: 'Nope, not having ''that'' around, causing trouble') it gets removed. If, IMHO, the removal itself would raise questions (as it appears to have done in this case) it will at least get a hopefully emotionally-neutral summary and acknowledgement of the thing that caused my upset to begin with. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

== Redirect ==

Hello. I noticed in the recent changes you reverted the edit on [[Textile Industry]], and I realized that my edit on [[Expedition Leader]] falls in the same category. The problem is that, as long as they exist, those pages will always appear on autocomplete, and they won't redirect properly if left as is. So I propose that until a decision is made for them to be deleted, that they be allowed to redirect properly to not confuse people who find them through autocomplete, like me. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 20:51, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:The underlying cause here is a Mediawiki bug with double redirects, discussed in detail at [[DF:REDIR]]'s talk page. Making ''any'' sort of edit to the first page in the chain will fix broken double redirects, so even though I reverted your edit, [[Textile Industry]] redirects correctly now, even from the search bar. The other important point is that you need to use "cv" for the namespace in redirect targets - hardcoding a specific version like "DF2014" will have the wrong behavior when we add a new namespace. In this case, I have deleted the page you edited, since [[Expedition leader]] (lowercase L) already exists and turns up in search results (and follows [[DF:Rule N]]). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::Very well. Thank you for your time. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 21:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
:::I should clarify: you're welcome to fix redirects like this that you notice, as long as you use "cv" (and there's a reminder that appears above the edit box when editing pages in the main namespace, in case that's useful). If you notice redirects whose only difference is capitalization, feel free to tag them for deletion with {{tl|delete}} and I can handle them. It occurs to me now that [[Textile Industry]] is another example of that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

== Drastic error in judgement ensues.. ==

Derped by starting [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014_Talk:Block this up], in a way it turned out I rather shouldn't have - mind cleaning up? Thanks. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 19:43, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:I'm not sure - what are you asking me to do? I'm hesitant to remove a discussion entirely, but if it's redundant to one on another talk page, I suppose I could archive it. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

...Yeah, archival was what I meant - one is always slightly frazzled when caught prepping to sign off for the night. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 09:49, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

== Random/cv ==

Not that I want more clutter, but what do you think about putting a [[Special:Random/cv]] link in the sidebar? '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 16:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

:Do you always want that there, or just in the current version's namespace? For reference, there are custom links added in some namespaces already, like [[Special:Random/Masterwork]] on [[Masterwork:Orc]], so a fourth "random" link on that sidebar could add some clutter. I would lean towards doing this just for versioned pages, but I'm not sure what you think is best. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:55, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

== Handling "!!science!!"-style additions ==

Sorry to repeatedly bring things to you—I don't really know who does what here now, or if there's a discussion board somewhere this belongs on (other than the talk page for just one of the related articles). Could you take a look at [[DF2014_Talk:Stress#SalfordSal_and_0.47.05|this discussion]]? As I mention there, there are a couple of other edits by that IP user at around the same time that (at a glance) look like they are probably similar. In the case of [[stress]], at least, the content of the article prior to the additions is now buried under a single user's experimental results for a game version one year out-of-date.
'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 18:36, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

DF2014 Talk:Stress

2021-02-26T18:21:51Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* SalfordSal and 0.47.05 */

I'm new and trying to figure out the game. It sounds like 'stress' and 'happiness' are different ends of the same scale. That is, happiness is simply negative stress. Is that accurate? Happy to add to this page it make it more explicit if so.– [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Shortscientist|Shortscientist]]

Evidence: "A dwarf's level of stress will affect [...] make keeping your dwarves happy a priority." [[DF2014:Thought]]

:Prior to the thought rewrite, happiness was the scale used, with "happy" and "unhappy" thoughts. The rewrite replaced that system with a stress-level system, where "circumstances" trigger "[[emotion]]s" (including happiness) that add or subtract stress. So currently happiness always lowers stress, but it is only one of 100+ emotions, and really only plays a small part in stress calculations. This does mean references to "happiness" from the old system are slightly misleading--for example, [[keeping your dwarves happy]] would technically be more appropriate as [[keeping your dwarves unstressed]], but that would break compatibility with the old versions.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

== Actual incidence of stress in practice ==

As of late, I've been...essentially stress-testing the stress mechanic itself, and so far I've had ample evidence to suggest that your average dwarf, or at least the starting seven, are immune to stressors to an extent that would drive dwarves insane in older versions.

To sum it up: No booze. No well. No beds. No dining furniture. No family. No tavern. No temple. Nothing interesting to do. NO CLOTHES. One of them has has an [[unfortunate accident]] and is busy rotting away on the floor in the meeting area.

And not once have they dipped into stressed, let alone started throwing tantrums or going insane. --[[User:Valos|Valos]] ([[User talk:Valos|talk]]) 17:12, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

:It takes time to accumulate enough stress to drive a dwarf mad. So don't be suprised that nothing happens early in the game. So, unless you've filled the entirety of your fortress with sapient creature corpses, it should take at least a few years of stressful life to cause insanity. [[User:TheCrazyHamsteR|'''TheCrazyHamsteR''']] 12:57, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

::What's more notable is that, at present, they haven't even dipped to the point of displaying the stressed/unhappy icon, let alone tantruming or insanity. A save is provided on the page for {{bugl|9074}} for DFHack testing. Annoyingly, the bug cited actually pre-dates the stress system entirely. ._. --[[User:Valos|Valos]] ([[User talk:Valos|talk]]) 20:47, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

== Third negative stress status ==

There is a third negative stress descriptor beyond "Haggard" -- if a Dwarf reaches the point where they would go insane, but they can't because they have created an artifact, their status on the wound screen changes to "Harrowed" (in the same pink used for deaths), and the first part of their thought screen is "Urist has been utterly harrowed by the tragic nightmare that is his/her life" (again in pink).

They still work, although they are prone to frequent bouts of depression or obliviousness (in my particular case; dwarves that were throwing stress-related tantrums before this point would probably still do so). I've only seen this once, so I have not yet managed to recover a dwarf from this state, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.

[[Special:Contributions/68.151.149.168|68.151.149.168]] 14:06, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

== SalfordSal and 0.47.05 ==

Recently, this page was greatly expanded using an essentially copy-pasted section of a write up by SalfordSal, posted here on the forum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177577.msg8216071#msg8216071.
Here's a reminder it was written with 0.47.04 in mind, so the stress changes in 0.47.05 are not accounted for. For anyone looking to remedy this, !science! on the 0.47.05 changes may be found in this thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177991.0 --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 10:11, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

:I'm honestly not sure how to start with [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Stress&curid=33889&diff=256892&oldid=254791 this edit] (and a few others also contributed by the same IP editor at around the same time)—there are a number of issues beyond bringing it into line with [[DF:CP]] and [[DF:CP#S]]/[[DF:MOS]].
:Extensive <s>data-gathering and conclusion-forming</s> er, !!science!! projects like this (especially done by a single editor) ''used'' to be separated from purely informational content; see, for example, “[[Material science]]” and (IIRC) some other pages related to combat, equipment, etc. And I have doubts about the currency of a lot of the information on some of those pages—especially things that weren't verified ''at the time'' which ''remain'' unverified today.
:The point being: did it help to keep those contributions within the main namespace yet in separate articles? Would it have been better to keep it in a separate namespace (so that it doesn't end up in the namespace of the current version, demanding updates for future versions (and potentially an eventual mark as ''historical'', if its discussion becomes obsolete))? Would it have been better to keep it in the same article, but in a separate section clearly reserved for <s>user-generated research</s> !!science!! (thus easily removed wholesale when its validity is immediately called into question either by game updates or additional experiments))?
:It seems clear to me that piecemeal integration for anything that can't be verified ''is not the solution'', since eventually no one will be able to say where it came from without seriously checking the diffs. (Unless DF Wiki has something like the Wiki blame tool on Wikipedia, it seems possible it would ''never'' get done.)
:As you mentioned, this editor's experiment took place with 47.04 in mind, without considering the stress changes for 47.05 (which is the version the article is supposed to represent, after all).
:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 18:21, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

User:Sriefmadsakzro

2021-02-25T01:04:29Z

Sriefmadsakzro:

♫ In fact, there's nothing at all. ♫

== ==
[BENIGN]
[HAS_NERVES]
[CAN_LEARN][CAN_SPEAK]
[CANOPENDOORS]

== ==
[TOLERATES_SITE:CITY]
[SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_SOCKS:COMMON]
[HELM:ITEM_HELM_MASK:FORCED]
[GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_GLOVES:FORCED]
[PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_PANTS:RARE]
CLOTHING

[ETHIC:VANDALISM:MISGUIDED]
[ETHIC:LYING:SHUN]

[WILL_ACCEPT_TRIBUTE]












==    ͜  (‍᷹•⃔͜⃢᪶⃩⃕͡(͜᷼¤⃝⃕͡)᷼‏   ͝  ‏ ==

Cave

2021-02-24T18:24:11Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Adventurer mode */ Clarified ambiguity in the purpose of distinguishing place name types (site/region names) in a particular paragraph.

{{Quality|Superior|01:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
:''Not to be confused with [[Cavern]]s.''

[[File:Cave_entrance.png|thumb|upright|A cave entrance.]]
[[File:Cave_inside.png|thumb|upright|Inside of a cave.]]

A '''cave''' is a small, natural [[site]]. It features a large [[rock]] mound several [[z-level]]s high with a downward passage beginning anywhere along the side of the mound. The passage most often leads deep down into a [[cavern]]. Rarely, a cave may lack any passage or even an entrance into the mound.

Most caves have a natural population of subterranean animals, such as [[cave swallow]]s and [[bat]]s. Certain [[megabeast]]s, [[semi-megabeast]]s and [[night creature]]s will settle in caves. If a cave is inhabited by creatures fond of [[Steals items|stealing items]] from nearby sites, their hoard will be littered all over the site. [[Dragon]]s are known to hoard jewelry; [[ettin]]s and [[giant]]s hoard [[jewelry]], [[food]], and [[alcohol]].

Civilized races can also settle in an unoccupied cave. Caves are the starting site of [[kobold]]s. Kobold caves have an extended underground network of tunnels and chambers that are connected to the natural passageway. Like other sites, caves can be attacked by invaders or monsters. They are one of the few known sites that players can [[embark]] on without third-party tools.

== Generation ==

The site encompasses 3×3 embark [[tile]]s, although the cave mound itself only takes up one embark tile, or 48×48 tiles. The mound can be located in any of the embark tiles, so it is not always found at the center of the site.

There are two ways caves can generate: mountain caves occur adjacent to a [[mountain]] region tile, while non-mountain caves occur in any land biome other than mountains. The number of caves per world is determined by the parameters {{DFtext|Number of Mountain Caves}} and {{DFtext|Number of Non-Mountain Caves}}. Both parameters can be configured in [[advanced world generation]].

On the world map, caves are displayed as {{Raw Tile|•|0:0:1}}. By default, however, they are hidden until discovered by an [[Adventurer_mode|adventurer]]. In advanced world gen, setting the option {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} to {{DFtext|Yes}} will make caves visible from the start.

Inside the cave, there are two ramps on each z-level, one going up and one going down. The ramps make a path that goes from the surface to the underground. The pathway is not always a straight line; on some z-levels, the passage can spread out into a small gallery.

The distribution of items (including [[artifact]]s) are scattered within the site borders, from the surface to any subterranean levels reachable by foot, i.e., no loot will be found beyond a rampless drop or a submerged passage, even if the hoard's owner is a flying or amphibious creature.

=== Kobold cave ===

A cave inhabited by skulking thieves has an additional complex network of subterranean passages that link from a single entryway to the natural passage of the cave mound. The underground network is located close to the surface and above the caverns; sometimes it is located just one z-level below the ground. [[Kobold]]s, poisonous critters, and stolen treasure can be found here.

It is easy to get lost in the network of tunnels which are one tile wide and wind in every direction. Certain sections use both ramps and stairs to go up and down several z-levels. Along the path are occasional 3×3 guard posts with armed kobolds. Hidden [[weapon trap]]s are very frequent and pose danger. Certain segments and corners are holed with tiny pits which have even more traps at the bottom. A unique feature of this site is that each weapon trap is coated with a [[syndrome]]-inducing venom that can range from bumblebee venom, to rattlesnake venom, to the dangerously lethal venom of the [[giant cave spider]]. If a trap hits successfully, the coated weapon will inject the venom into the intruder. Since fast travel or rest is generally not possible in a cave, you will most likely be forced to endure (or succumb) to the venom's effects.

The network of passageways connects five main rooms: a trophy room, a large pit room for tamed animals, a room for [[egg]]s, a room filled with corpses, and the living chambers. Stolen artifacts are piled with other stolen items in the trophy room. The living chambers are irregular cavities that contain many hostile kobolds. The pit room for animals is the largest room, spanning several z-levels deep in gradual slopes, poked with 3×3 enclosures on the sides. This room can include any poisonous non-mammal creatures.

According to [[legends mode]], kobolds may construct a [[market]] in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structure resembling a market in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.

<gallery>
File:Kobold cave entrance.png|Kobold cave entrance. Several levels needed to be traversed down from the natural cave mouth to reach this point.
File:Kobold cave passage.png|First tunnel portion
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z3).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z2).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z1).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z0).png|Second tunnel portion (bottom)
File:Kobold cave pit (z4).png|Pit room (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave pit (z3).png|Pit room (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave pit (z2).png|Pit room (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave pit (z1).png|Pit room (z-level -3)
File:Kobold cave pit (z0).png|Pit room (z-level -4)
File:Kobold cave living.png|Living chambers (the "l" and "g" are [[animal people]])
File:Kobold cave trophy.png|Trophy room
File:Kobold cave eggs.png|Room with eggs
File:Kobold cave corpses.png|Room with corpses
</gallery>

== Fortress mode ==

[[File:Cave embark screen.png|thumb|A cave on the embark selection map screen]]

In [[fortress mode]], you can choose whether or not to make caves visible on the [[embark]] screen when you [[World generation|design]] the world you will play in. The default option for {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} is set to {{DFtext|No}}. If set to yes, caves will appear on the map so that they may be sought out or avoided as desired. Caves have the odd feature that the [[stone]] they are made of doesn't match the material left after it is dug out; for example, a rock wall will leave behind a [[clay]] floor.

== Adventurer mode ==

Caves are one way of entering the [[cavern]]s in [[adventurer mode]]. There are multiple ways of learning their location.

For example, if a civilization takes control of a cave, then that cave's location becomes common knowledge within the civilization. Playing as an adventurer from that civilization, you can find information in your [[quest]] log about the cave and its location{{verify}}; you may even start your adventure there.

Adventurers start knowing rumors that are common knowledge in their civilization, but they usually don't know the location. You can {{DFtext|Bring up specific incident or rumor}} in conversation and then {{DFtext|Ask for directions to}} the location. That will add the location to your quest log which you can then check to see if it is a cave. Similarly, caves can be a location involved in rumors you don't know about which can be brought up with {{DFtext|Inquire about any troubles}}.

They can sometimes be found by repeatedly asking an NPC {{DFtext|about the surrounding area}}; if NPCs in one region don't tell you about any caves, move to another region and try again. Note that some of the place names mentioned by NPCs correspond to regions, not sites. When an NPC does mention a site, it will be added to the list of places you can ask for directions to.

{{Translation
| dwarven = äs
| elvish = garetho
| goblin = omo
| human = ngethac
}}

{{World}}

{{Category|Fortress mode}}
{{Category|Adventurer mode}}

Cave

2021-02-24T18:17:20Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Adventurer mode */ reworded/minor clarification

{{Quality|Superior|01:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
:''Not to be confused with [[Cavern]]s.''

[[File:Cave_entrance.png|thumb|upright|A cave entrance.]]
[[File:Cave_inside.png|thumb|upright|Inside of a cave.]]

A '''cave''' is a small, natural [[site]]. It features a large [[rock]] mound several [[z-level]]s high with a downward passage beginning anywhere along the side of the mound. The passage most often leads deep down into a [[cavern]]. Rarely, a cave may lack any passage or even an entrance into the mound.

Most caves have a natural population of subterranean animals, such as [[cave swallow]]s and [[bat]]s. Certain [[megabeast]]s, [[semi-megabeast]]s and [[night creature]]s will settle in caves. If a cave is inhabited by creatures fond of [[Steals items|stealing items]] from nearby sites, their hoard will be littered all over the site. [[Dragon]]s are known to hoard jewelry; [[ettin]]s and [[giant]]s hoard [[jewelry]], [[food]], and [[alcohol]].

Civilized races can also settle in an unoccupied cave. Caves are the starting site of [[kobold]]s. Kobold caves have an extended underground network of tunnels and chambers that are connected to the natural passageway. Like other sites, caves can be attacked by invaders or monsters. They are one of the few known sites that players can [[embark]] on without third-party tools.

== Generation ==

The site encompasses 3×3 embark [[tile]]s, although the cave mound itself only takes up one embark tile, or 48×48 tiles. The mound can be located in any of the embark tiles, so it is not always found at the center of the site.

There are two ways caves can generate: mountain caves occur adjacent to a [[mountain]] region tile, while non-mountain caves occur in any land biome other than mountains. The number of caves per world is determined by the parameters {{DFtext|Number of Mountain Caves}} and {{DFtext|Number of Non-Mountain Caves}}. Both parameters can be configured in [[advanced world generation]].

On the world map, caves are displayed as {{Raw Tile|•|0:0:1}}. By default, however, they are hidden until discovered by an [[Adventurer_mode|adventurer]]. In advanced world gen, setting the option {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} to {{DFtext|Yes}} will make caves visible from the start.

Inside the cave, there are two ramps on each z-level, one going up and one going down. The ramps make a path that goes from the surface to the underground. The pathway is not always a straight line; on some z-levels, the passage can spread out into a small gallery.

The distribution of items (including [[artifact]]s) are scattered within the site borders, from the surface to any subterranean levels reachable by foot, i.e., no loot will be found beyond a rampless drop or a submerged passage, even if the hoard's owner is a flying or amphibious creature.

=== Kobold cave ===

A cave inhabited by skulking thieves has an additional complex network of subterranean passages that link from a single entryway to the natural passage of the cave mound. The underground network is located close to the surface and above the caverns; sometimes it is located just one z-level below the ground. [[Kobold]]s, poisonous critters, and stolen treasure can be found here.

It is easy to get lost in the network of tunnels which are one tile wide and wind in every direction. Certain sections use both ramps and stairs to go up and down several z-levels. Along the path are occasional 3×3 guard posts with armed kobolds. Hidden [[weapon trap]]s are very frequent and pose danger. Certain segments and corners are holed with tiny pits which have even more traps at the bottom. A unique feature of this site is that each weapon trap is coated with a [[syndrome]]-inducing venom that can range from bumblebee venom, to rattlesnake venom, to the dangerously lethal venom of the [[giant cave spider]]. If a trap hits successfully, the coated weapon will inject the venom into the intruder. Since fast travel or rest is generally not possible in a cave, you will most likely be forced to endure (or succumb) to the venom's effects.

The network of passageways connects five main rooms: a trophy room, a large pit room for tamed animals, a room for [[egg]]s, a room filled with corpses, and the living chambers. Stolen artifacts are piled with other stolen items in the trophy room. The living chambers are irregular cavities that contain many hostile kobolds. The pit room for animals is the largest room, spanning several z-levels deep in gradual slopes, poked with 3×3 enclosures on the sides. This room can include any poisonous non-mammal creatures.

According to [[legends mode]], kobolds may construct a [[market]] in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structure resembling a market in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.

<gallery>
File:Kobold cave entrance.png|Kobold cave entrance. Several levels needed to be traversed down from the natural cave mouth to reach this point.
File:Kobold cave passage.png|First tunnel portion
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z3).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z2).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z1).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z0).png|Second tunnel portion (bottom)
File:Kobold cave pit (z4).png|Pit room (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave pit (z3).png|Pit room (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave pit (z2).png|Pit room (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave pit (z1).png|Pit room (z-level -3)
File:Kobold cave pit (z0).png|Pit room (z-level -4)
File:Kobold cave living.png|Living chambers (the "l" and "g" are [[animal people]])
File:Kobold cave trophy.png|Trophy room
File:Kobold cave eggs.png|Room with eggs
File:Kobold cave corpses.png|Room with corpses
</gallery>

== Fortress mode ==

[[File:Cave embark screen.png|thumb|A cave on the embark selection map screen]]

In [[fortress mode]], you can choose whether or not to make caves visible on the [[embark]] screen when you [[World generation|design]] the world you will play in. The default option for {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} is set to {{DFtext|No}}. If set to yes, caves will appear on the map so that they may be sought out or avoided as desired. Caves have the odd feature that the [[stone]] they are made of doesn't match the material left after it is dug out; for example, a rock wall will leave behind a [[clay]] floor.

== Adventurer mode ==

Caves are one way of entering the [[cavern]]s in [[adventurer mode]]. There are multiple ways of learning their location.

For example, if a civilization takes control of a cave, then that cave's location becomes common knowledge within the civilization. Playing as an adventurer from that civilization, you can find information in your [[quest]] log about the cave and its location{{verify}}; you may even start your adventure there.

Adventurers start knowing rumors that are common knowledge in their civilization, but they usually don't know the location. You can {{DFtext|Bring up specific incident or rumor}} in conversation and then {{DFtext|Ask for directions to}} the location. That will add the location to your quest log which you can then check to see if it is a cave. Similarly, caves can be a location involved in rumors you don't know about which can be brought up with {{DFtext|Inquire about any troubles}}.

They can sometimes be found by repeatedly asking an NPC {{DFtext|about the surrounding area}}; if NPCs in one region don't tell you about any caves, move to another region and try again. When they do mention a site (sometimes they will mention a region), it will be added to the list of places you can ask for directions to.

{{Translation
| dwarven = äs
| elvish = garetho
| goblin = omo
| human = ngethac
}}

{{World}}

{{Category|Fortress mode}}
{{Category|Adventurer mode}}

Cave

2021-02-24T17:52:43Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Undo revision 256876 by Silverwing235 (talk) 1. Incorrect colon. 2. Restored original parenthetical (it was not meant to express an alternative).

{{Quality|Superior|01:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
:''Not to be confused with [[Cavern]]s.''

[[File:Cave_entrance.png|thumb|upright|A cave entrance.]]
[[File:Cave_inside.png|thumb|upright|Inside of a cave.]]

A '''cave''' is a small, natural [[site]]. It features a large [[rock]] mound several [[z-level]]s high with a downward passage beginning anywhere along the side of the mound. The passage most often leads deep down into a [[cavern]]. Rarely, a cave may lack any passage or even an entrance into the mound.

Most caves have a natural population of subterranean animals, such as [[cave swallow]]s and [[bat]]s. Certain [[megabeast]]s, [[semi-megabeast]]s and [[night creature]]s will settle in caves. If a cave is inhabited by creatures fond of [[Steals items|stealing items]] from nearby sites, their hoard will be littered all over the site. [[Dragon]]s are known to hoard jewelry; [[ettin]]s and [[giant]]s hoard [[jewelry]], [[food]], and [[alcohol]].

Civilized races can also settle in an unoccupied cave. Caves are the starting site of [[kobold]]s. Kobold caves have an extended underground network of tunnels and chambers that are connected to the natural passageway. Like other sites, caves can be attacked by invaders or monsters. They are one of the few known sites that players can [[embark]] on without third-party tools.

== Generation ==

The site encompasses 3×3 embark [[tile]]s, although the cave mound itself only takes up one embark tile, or 48×48 tiles. The mound can be located in any of the embark tiles, so it is not always found at the center of the site.

There are two ways caves can generate: mountain caves occur adjacent to a [[mountain]] region tile, while non-mountain caves occur in any land biome other than mountains. The number of caves per world is determined by the parameters {{DFtext|Number of Mountain Caves}} and {{DFtext|Number of Non-Mountain Caves}}. Both parameters can be configured in [[advanced world generation]].

On the world map, caves are displayed as {{Raw Tile|•|0:0:1}}. By default, however, they are hidden until discovered by an [[Adventurer_mode|adventurer]]. In advanced world gen, setting the option {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} to {{DFtext|Yes}} will make caves visible from the start.

Inside the cave, there are two ramps on each z-level, one going up and one going down. The ramps make a path that goes from the surface to the underground. The pathway is not always a straight line; on some z-levels, the passage can spread out into a small gallery.

The distribution of items (including [[artifact]]s) are scattered within the site borders, from the surface to any subterranean levels reachable by foot, i.e., no loot will be found beyond a rampless drop or a submerged passage, even if the hoard's owner is a flying or amphibious creature.

=== Kobold cave ===

A cave inhabited by skulking thieves has an additional complex network of subterranean passages that link from a single entryway to the natural passage of the cave mound. The underground network is located close to the surface and above the caverns; sometimes it is located just one z-level below the ground. [[Kobold]]s, poisonous critters, and stolen treasure can be found here.

It is easy to get lost in the network of tunnels which are one tile wide and wind in every direction. Certain sections use both ramps and stairs to go up and down several z-levels. Along the path are occasional 3×3 guard posts with armed kobolds. Hidden [[weapon trap]]s are very frequent and pose danger. Certain segments and corners are holed with tiny pits which have even more traps at the bottom. A unique feature of this site is that each weapon trap is coated with a [[syndrome]]-inducing venom that can range from bumblebee venom, to rattlesnake venom, to the dangerously lethal venom of the [[giant cave spider]]. If a trap hits successfully, the coated weapon will inject the venom into the intruder. Since fast travel or rest is generally not possible in a cave, you will most likely be forced to endure (or succumb) to the venom's effects.

The network of passageways connects five main rooms: a trophy room, a large pit room for tamed animals, a room for [[egg]]s, a room filled with corpses, and the living chambers. Stolen artifacts are piled with other stolen items in the trophy room. The living chambers are irregular cavities that contain many hostile kobolds. The pit room for animals is the largest room, spanning several z-levels deep in gradual slopes, poked with 3×3 enclosures on the sides. This room can include any poisonous non-mammal creatures.

According to [[legends mode]], kobolds may construct a [[market]] in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structure resembling a market in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.

<gallery>
File:Kobold cave entrance.png|Kobold cave entrance. Several levels needed to be traversed down from the natural cave mouth to reach this point.
File:Kobold cave passage.png|First tunnel portion
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z3).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z2).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z1).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z0).png|Second tunnel portion (bottom)
File:Kobold cave pit (z4).png|Pit room (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave pit (z3).png|Pit room (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave pit (z2).png|Pit room (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave pit (z1).png|Pit room (z-level -3)
File:Kobold cave pit (z0).png|Pit room (z-level -4)
File:Kobold cave living.png|Living chambers (the "l" and "g" are [[animal people]])
File:Kobold cave trophy.png|Trophy room
File:Kobold cave eggs.png|Room with eggs
File:Kobold cave corpses.png|Room with corpses
</gallery>

== Fortress mode ==

[[File:Cave embark screen.png|thumb|A cave on the embark selection map screen]]

In [[fortress mode]], you can choose whether or not to make caves visible on the [[embark]] screen when you [[World generation|design]] the world you will play in. The default option for {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} is set to {{DFtext|No}}. If set to yes, caves will appear on the map so that they may be sought out or avoided as desired. Caves have the odd feature that the [[stone]] they are made of doesn't match the material left after it is dug out; for example, a rock wall will leave behind a [[clay]] floor.

== Adventurer mode ==

Caves are one way of entering the [[cavern]]s in [[adventurer mode]]. There are multiple ways of learning their location.

They can occasionally be taken over by your civilization, making their location common knowledge that you start with in your [[quest]] log{{verify}} or that you can even start your adventure at.

Adventurers start knowing rumors that are common knowledge in their civilization, but they usually don't know the location. You can {{DFtext|Bring up specific incident or rumor}} in conversation and then {{DFtext|Ask for directions to}} the location. That will add the location to your quest log which you can then check to see if it is a cave. Similarly, caves can be a location involved in rumors you don't know about which can be brought up with {{DFtext|Inquire about any troubles}}.

They can sometimes be found by repeatedly asking an NPC {{DFtext|about the surrounding area}}; if NPCs in one region don't tell you about any caves, move to another region and try again. When they do mention a site (sometimes they will mention a region), it will be added to the list of places you can ask for directions to.

{{Translation
| dwarven = äs
| elvish = garetho
| goblin = omo
| human = ngethac
}}

{{World}}

{{Category|Fortress mode}}
{{Category|Adventurer mode}}

User talk:Lethosor

2021-02-23T16:25:06Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Random/cv */

User talk:Lethosor

2021-02-23T16:24:52Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Random/cv */ new section

{{User:Lethosor/header}}
{{Archive|
* [[/archive1|Archive 1 (February-August 2013)]]
* [[/archive2|Archive 2 (Sept. 2013 - May 2014)]]
}}
__TOC__
{{clear}}

==Bot requests==
<div style="" class="plainlinks">
[{{fullurl:User talk:Lethosor|action=edit&section=1&editintro={{urlencode:User:Lethosor/edit intro/bot}}}} '''Add a new request''']
</div>

=== Underpopulated categories ===

Many categories in the DF2014 namespace don't list some of the pages that have the category link. An empty edit on a page (well, any edit) will correct this, but only for that page. This sounds like a job for a bot. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 19:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
:I'm pretty sure that's a cache problem, so I'll try rebuilding link tables on the server side and see if that helps (it would probably be a lot faster than sending a bot around to null-edit every page). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
::This has been fixed. The problem was that the server that actually runs the job queue was still using the old configuration (without the DF2014 namespace). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:17, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

== Diagram ==

Take a look over [[DF talk:diagram|here]]. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 15:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

== Ceramic Industry page assistance. ==

(Message here) --[[User:DorfyDave|DorfyDave]] ([[User talk:DorfyDave|talk]]) 04:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the help with the ceramic industry stuff.

I see what you are doing with the thumbnail workflows on other pages, so if you would rather it be small and let the reader expand it, that would be fine.

I was thinking that the pages looked better with the intro section before the regular content, keeping it separate from the auto TOC / Header listed content, but if you prefer that everything follow the layered header format, that's fine.

:My primary concern was the wrapping caused by inserting the full-size flowchart next to a section. It looks like you've addressed that by splitting up the flowchart, which looks good to me. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

== Removing/restoring [[Main:Fruit]] ==

Not that I am protesting it, but why exactly did you remove and then restore the [[Main:Fruit]] page? Because to me, all that happened now is that the creation entry on the page's history is gone, which isn't really anything notable either.
--{{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|13:03|August 26, 2014}} 13:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
:I deleted it at first because I didn't realize AutoRedirect wasn't handling section redirects properly, then restored it when I noticed it was broken. That article's [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Fruit&action=history history] still shows your revision, so I'm not sure what you mean - is it missing from [[Special:RecentChanges]]? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
::The creation entry I was talking about was actually the first entry, and the entry that is now the only one was the second before you removed it. When I created the page I first had it directly redirect to [[cv:Tree#Fruit]], which after testing didn't work. I usually save the page when the preview doesn't show a red link and the link is correct, and after saving I test it, This time, however, the link in the preview was blue and correct, but actually following the redirect only led to [[cv:Tree]] instead of [[cv:Tree#Fruit]]. The entry you are seeing now is the result of fixing this by making it into a double redirect through [[cv:Fruit]].
:::It looks to me like your first edit was to [[DF2014:Fruit]] - when [[Main:Fruit]] didn't exist, it would have automatically redirected to [[DF2014:Fruit]], so it might have appeared to exist when it didn't. (The problem here is that I made AutoRedirect follow redirect chains internally, since Mediawiki's maximum-redirect setting is buggy, so a nonexistent [[Main:Fruit]] would actually redirect to what [[cv:Fruit]] redirects to - the problem is that it ignores sections at the moment, so section redirects will need to be manually created until I can fix that.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

== settings-manager ==

I don't know where to put it because I don't have a github account and don't know if you have a personal thread for your scripts like the others, but couldn't you add a TEXT mode entry in line 116 of your settings-manager script?
--[[Special:Contributions/78.250.50.116|78.250.50.116]] 04:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
:I originally excluded it because it only works on Linux, but I'll add it back for Linux users. Thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

== Interesting glitch with redirects ==

I went to see what "Candy" was by going to a page named "Candy", and I found out that it meant Adamantine. But I saw that I got redirected to [[v0.34:Adamantine]], which shouldn't happen seeing as mainspace redirects should always go to the cv namespace. So I went back to fix it, and I saw that [[main:Candy]] redirected to [[main:Adamantine]], so I went there to fix it. But that page redirected properly to [[DF2014:Adamantine]]. This is where it gets interesting.

So when you go to [[main:Candy]], you get redirected to [[main:Adamantine]] which in turn redirects to [[DF2014:Adamantine]]. But - for some reason, you don't get sent to [[DF2014:Adamantine]], but to [[v0.34:Adamantine]]. Going to [[main:Adamantine]] in the first place redirects you to [[DF2014:Adamantine]] properly.

I have no idea how this happens, and since you maintain most of the wiki, I think you would be the right person to tell this to.
--{{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|13:42|November 01, 2014}} 13:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

:My best guess is that the [[Main:Candy]] redirect is cached and still points to [[v0.34:Adamantine]]. Our [[DF:REDIR|new policy]] is to keep redirects in versioned namespaces, so feel free to tag any broken redirects (in the main namespace) that you find with {{tl|bad redirect}} and I'll delete them. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 14:48, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

:I just saw a redlink on the exploratory tunnels page(redlink to [[DF2014:Break]]) and went to create it, when I discovered that the pages for Break existed for 23a and 40d, but not for 34.11 and 40.x. I went to check those to import content, and they turned out to be redirects. So I just redirected [[DF2014:Break]] to [[DF2014:On break]] and when I went to create additional redirects in the mainspace, I found that [[main:Break]] redirects to [[main:On break]] which redirects to [[cv:On break]]. But, again, it ultimately did not redirect to cv:On break but to v0.34:Break. I think that if it is indeed a cache problem we should rebuild redirect caches. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:08|November 02, 2014}}
:PS: Or just batch-delete all of this kind of redirects. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:09|November 02, 2014}}
:I don't like "bumping" this message like this, but since it's rather annoying, and ten days have been since I told you, almost all of these redirects are broken. Take a look at [[main:Aluminium]] for example, it goes to its 34.11 page. I think that it goes like this; when a page in the mainspace redirects to another page in the mainspace, which in turn goes to a cv space page, it goes to 0.34 instead of the current version. Going to the main>cv redirect initially does not cause this glitch. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:46|November 12, 2014}}
::It would be helpful if you could add {{tl|bad redirect}} to those pages (preferably before the "#REDIRECT" line) so I can delete them. I'm not sure what's causing the problem, but I'll see if I can override broken redirects with the AutoRedirect extension as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

== Migrated citations ==

As seen on [[DF2014:Dragonfire]], migrated citations can become confused, pointing to non-existent pages. I'm not sure how to fix it, but in general citations shouldn't automatically change what they are pointing at.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 18:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

== <nowiki>{{ArticleVersion}}</nowiki> bug ==

I just found another very strange bug regarding the articleversion template. The more research I did on it, the weirder it got. The bug is that when you are not logged in, and you visit a non-DF2014 page with an av template, the latest version shows as v0.40.16 instead of v0.40.18. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|10:17|November 25, 2014}}
PS: This bug does not replicate when you are logged in. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|10:19|November 25, 2014}}
:This is because pages are cached for logged-out users. You can refresh individual pages by adding "?action=purge" to the end of the URL (or possibly by null-editing them). It appears to occur in DF2014 pages as well - [[DF2014:Hemp]], for example. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

== Lost password request ==

I've forgotten my password. User: Bumber

:You don't seem to have an email address associated with your account. I sent a message to Bumber on the forums, assuming that's you. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:24, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks.

== Redirects ==

Thank you for the correction. I felt I might be doing it wrong but couldn't find an example of it done right to copy. Now I know. :) [[User:Volatar|Volatar]] ([[User talk:Volatar|talk]]) 16:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

== v0.42.05 raws update ==

Just a friendly reminder that the wiki raws need updated to pick up the [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Page_request/List&diff=222917&oldid=222913 new critters in v0.42.05]. It would also be nice if your bot could auto-create the new creature pages so we don't end up with [[back bear man]] and the like.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

:Quietust updated the extension, but I'm having trouble deploying the changes for some reason (which Emily can hopefully figure out). I don't know if I'll have enough time this/next week to write a script to create the new creature pages - if not, Quietust might have something still laying around from 0.34/0.40. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:45, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

== Page move reminder ==

[[DF2014:Box]] to [[DF2014:Container]] please. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 23:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

:Done. It took me a second to figure out what the issue was - I'm surprised Mediawiki wouldn't let you move a page over another one that was just a redirect. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
::Thanks! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:50, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

== v0.43.05 raws update ==

Just a friendly reminder that the wiki raws need updated to pick up the changes through v0.43.05.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

:Done. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:43, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

== Multiple redirects leads to incorrect namespace ==

Discussion here: [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Centralized_Discussion#Solution_for_this]] [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 10:49, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

We had an attack on August 3rd. [[Talk:Main Page (fix plz)]] ‎needs moved back to Talk:Main Page, and the rest of [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/Etihand the vandal's handiwork] can just be deleted. I can't think of any legitimate reason a user would need to move Talk:Main Page, so it should probably be move-locked to prevent future hijacks.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 15:53, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

:It should be cleaned up now. Sorry for the delay there. [[Main Page]] was already move-protected, but apparently that didn't apply to the talk page, so both should be move-protected now too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

== Sorry, I need a password reset ==

I just logged in, saw the post about passwords needing to be changed. (Feeling all smart since I just setup a password manager) I updated my password, only to realize I didn't save the new password correctly in the manager. I tried to reset it but the wiki had a note saying to contact you since it can't do outbound email right now.

My user name is [[Frobnic8]].

My most notable contribution here are the PDF versions of the old Bronzemurder illustration by Tim Denee: [[Bronzemurder]]

The files are still hosted at my website. To prove it's me, I've also left you a note at http://eldritch.org/erskin/temp/df_wiki.txt

Sorry for the hassle, but if you could set me a temporary password or send me a link to a password reset to the associated email address for the account, that'd be awesome.

Thanks!

--[[Special:Contributions/70.163.4.102|70.163.4.102]] 15:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Done —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks! --[[User:Frobnic8|Frobnic8]] ([[User talk:Frobnic8|talk]]) 02:51, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

== Password reset ==

I could have sworn I did this already, but now there's no sign of my edit here. Dunno what happened to it. Can I please get a password reset for user Urist McDorf. I believe the email info associated is still good (j*y@y*m). Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/108.49.199.220|108.49.199.220]] 06:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

== Totally failed to make an account ==

Really think I did everything right.

The Captcha app you are using says it "shutdown" on 3-31-2018 so i'm wondering if that's the issue. – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:216.201.251.142|216.201.251.142]]

:Yeah, we know about it. Emi and Briess are working on some upgrades, and we'll try to upgrade the captcha once it's done. In the meantime, you can PM me on the forums (or email me at gmail.com) and I think I can set up an account for you. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

== Chemist Page Quality Rating ==

The quality rating of the [[chemist]] page is listed as *Superior*, despite being a stub. I can't even decrease the quality down to +Fine+ using the rating script.
I added the memory attribute as stated by Toady's recent FotF reply, and I'll insert the relevant [[topics]] for the skill, but there's probably a lot more work to be done.
--[[User:Bumber|Bumber]] ([[User talk:Bumber|talk]]) 06:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

:The "override" link [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Chemist&action=history worked for me]. You have to click on the rating at the top that you want to select, then submit. The calculated score is unreliable, to say the least. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

::I couldn't figure out how the override worked and just assumed it was an admin thing. Didn't realize you had to click one of the quality options at the top. —[[User:Bumber|Bumber]] ([[User talk:Bumber|talk]]) 22:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

== [Proposition] - Wiki preview popups ==

Hi there.

I've read quite a bit of wikipedia these last few days (the real wikipedia website), and I've come to use their preview feature quite a few times.
In case you don't know, the preview is a little JS pop-up that shows an image and some text when you hover a link.
So, you get a rough idea of what the thing is, and you don't have to load the full page (you can still if you click the link).

This feature is not in DF wiki, and I was thinking maybe it could be, as it greatly increase readability (since you don't have to open a new page, read the first few lines, go back, and waste time figuring out where you were; for every topic you're unaware of).

I'm not sure whether I should ask you, or Briess or anyone, but since you've made quite some wiki Extensions, I'll ask anyway.

So, do you think it could be a viable idea to turn this feature on ?

Here's a mediawiki tutorial on how to set this up, just in case :
[https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Popups]

Cheers ! =D
- Spriggans
Aug, 17 2018

:It does sound useful, but it claims to require MediaWiki 1.25+, so it'll probably have to wait until we finish upgrading. There are instructions for 1.24 or earlier in the article, though - I'm not sure how far back "or earlier" includes. The two extensions it depends on, TextExtracts and PageImages, require 1.23+ and 1.25+ respectively, so it's unlikely that it'll work on our current (pre-upgrade) setup.
:(I am a good person to ask, by the way, and <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> is probably a more convenient way to sign comments.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

== Aesthetically Pleasing Things ==

I know I posted this before but... do I have your permission to spice up some of the templates of tables? I could make some look better and "cleaner" than they do now. Also, are there any plans to change the default look of the wiki? I don't mean this in a nasty way, white with black text is pretty... generic. - [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:20, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

== Auto-Welcome ==

It looks like your bot is automatically welcoming editors. Unfortunately, due to the nature of rotating IP addresses, it appears your bot has [//www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/LethosorBot welcomed one anonymous user] 7 times in the last 5 days. Perhaps it would be best to restrict auto-welcoming to non-IP users?--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's the AutoWelcomeUser extension (just set up to attribute edits to my bot). I definitely agree that it should be changed, and I'll look into it. Fun fact: this was enabled on the old wiki, but I had written it for a ''slightly'' newer Mediawiki version, so I had forgotten about it since it didn't actually work until we upgraded. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
:I think this is fixed now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:57, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

== On "Acceptable" Commas ==

Regarding [//www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:World_generation&curid=32663&diff=245045&oldid=245044 this edit]:

Per the [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia Manual of Style] (referenced as [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#S|Rule S]]): "Where more than one style is acceptable under MoS, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason."

So, while that comma is indeed "acceptable" (or optional), editing to add that optional comma is not. I intentionally did not put a comma there when I added that sentence, and I believe my punctuational preference is at least as valid as ‎Silverwing235's.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

:I'm not convinced that comma is optional, but I didn't realize you had added that sentence (I thought it was part of the original quote from Toady before your changes, so I was mistakenly applying rule S there as well). Apologies, and it's your call as to what to do there. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:21, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

== Embark points ==

There's no page explaining embark points in-depth; can I make such a page? Or at least add it to the embark page? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
: I'd add it to the embark page since I'm not sure it warrants a separate page unless it's a ''lot'' of detail (i.e. more than the current embark page). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:43, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
:: With what I have planned, there's a ton of things I can go over which can fill a page. I can make a "workbench"/fake page and you can tell me if it's worthy or not. Also, is it possible to put things in "collapsable/expandable" tables to not badly stretch out pages? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:14, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
:: Sorry, one more thing. You know the "Urist likes [something] for their [something]."? Are these made up on the spot or is that info taken directly from somewhere? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:59, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
::: I'm not sure how much detail you can go into about just embark points, but sure, feel free to make a test page if you like and I can provide some input. I wouldn't put things in collapsible tables just because of page length, because pretty much no other page does that (except for some things that aren't really part of the content of a page, like nav boxes and raws). If you're referring to things like "Urist likes [creature]" from pages like [[DF2014:Cat]], those are generated from the raws. I'm not sure if that appears on any other types of pages. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:30, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

==Creature font==
Are you alright if I change the font of the letters in the creature list? Sorry to say this but that font is kinda ugly. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 01:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
:Are you talking about [[DF2014:Creature]] or something else? I personally think that page looks fine, but what does it look like on your end? It might be some cross-browser issue that we can try to sort out. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:56, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
::Yes I do mean that DF2014:Creature page. The font of the letters that resemble the creatures are this ugly "Times New Roman"-esque font that looks like an eyesore to me. It could be a much smoother looking font. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
:::I noticed the font looks ugly on Firefox and Edge but not in the Tor Browser. So yeah, there's a weird browser thing going on and I don't know how to fix things for specific browsers on wiki's... -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 20:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
::::I'm guessing you don't have the "Century" font installed, or accessible in those browsers for some reason. For reference, [https://i.imgur.com/wD6QMoG.png here] is what it looks like for me, definitely not Times. I'll see if it can be standardized. Does {{Raw Tile|c|6:0}} look ok to you? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:33, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::At some point in the possibly-recent past, those letters looked the same for me as it did you, but one day it just changed to the uglier font. Also, it's impossible to use the "Upload newer version of this file" function, as that always gives weird errors: Could not read or write file "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/6/6c/Biome_evil.png" due to insufficient permissions or missing directories/containers. I'm assuming I don't have access to do that? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:07, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::I figured out the setting that controlled the font, it's the "Allow pages to choose their own fonts, instead of your selections above" choice, but turning this option off can spoil the fonts everywhere else on other sites. There's something about (my) Firefox that's not recognizing the Century font, even though I have it. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah, not sure it's worth working around browser settings. Does the {{Raw Tile|c|6:0}} from above look ok to you or the same as the one on the creatures page? Also, that error is definitely not intentional; I'll look into it. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:57, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::The C there looks alright. Creature tile lists on other pages look fine as it's using the "Tile" template, so maybe something's wrong with the template being used in the creature page. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 12:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a custom template being used for those tables that specifies the font itself. I changed the font to fall back to the ones that {{tl|Tile}} uses. Does it look ok now? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::It does not. But when I use a different computer, it's fine there (still on Firefox). Yeah, I can't figure this out. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 07:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
{{od|10}}
I've cleared the cache on the server side (I don't remember if I did that before). If that still doesn't help, maybe clearing your browser's cache would help? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:29, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::Well, I cleared 1GB worth of data, but that didn't fix the issue? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

== BREAKING NEWS ==

Here comes Supernerd... the coolest and greatest editor ever on [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki]]. --[[User:Supernerd|Supernerd]] ([[User talk:Supernerd|talk]]) 10:47, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

== Proposal to translate the Wiki into Spanish ==

Good I am an expert player in the game and I would like to translate the wiki to help the Spanish community in this great game.
Should I translate it as I could?.
Here's my email for the answer: cheekonobreeko@gmail.com

== Just signal boosting on someone else's behalf... ==

...apparently a researcher with [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174850.0 research] on [[book]]s got themselves [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175133.0 locked out of the lab]. Any support for this?
--[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

== Minor server-side issues... ==

1. Broken(404) HTML links [[Quotes|here]].

2. Creature [[Giant earthworm|variation]] needs to be added [[Worm|here]].
--[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

:These aren't server-side issues - they can be fixed by editing the pages. In the first case, the forums moved from bay12games.com/forums to bay12forums.com/smf (I'm not sure when that happened, or if there used to be a redirect, but I would recommend {{tl|cite forum}} to make them future-proof). The second issue you pointed out happens when creature variations don't follow the typical naming pattern, but you can override the variations that the templates display. See [[blue jay]], [[bluejay man]], and [[giant bluejay]] for examples, and feel free to let me know if you have any questions about those templates. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:30, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
:Update: looks like there's also {{tl|forum link}} if you prefer to keep the text that the links currently use (for #1). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:33, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

== can't login... user:garrieirons ==

yeah I tried all the things and posted on the forum.

any advice on how to get a password reset?

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:GarrieIrons

Sorry if you're not an admin.

Cheers,
Garrie

Symptom:
When I click the reset password link, and enter my user name (GarrieIrons) it tells me:
'''A password reset email has already been sent, within the last 24 hours. To prevent abuse, only one password reset email will be sent per 24 hours.'''

Cheers again.
G

:Ok, so it sounds like you already requested a password reset - did you get an email? It should have come from do-not-reply@dwarffortresswiki.org (make sure it didn't get sent to your spam folder). If you don't have access to the email address you registered with anymore, I can try to reset it some other way. Also, where did you post on the forums? I didn't see anything from you on the wiki board. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:36, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
::To be clear, every password reset has resulted in the message above, but, no email. Can you tell me is it going to a hotmail, or a gmail address? If not, I'm stumped and I'll start a different account?
::Also...ok I looked at threads I guess. I coulda sworn at some time in the past I asked about this on the forum but I'm not finding it (only the thread I thought I responded to).
::G
:::OK I found a PM thread on the forum, from ages ago, referring me to you...but I'd never followed up... 🤦‍♂️
:::G.
:::Looks like your username at hotmail.com - do you still have access to that? I just sent you a test email from the wiki, so let me know if that goes through. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

== Weirdness ensues... ==

...Alright, maybe not, but then again...
[[Interaction_examples|this page]] is fine in Search, but spews redlinkery when linked to as if Ebola-infected - very puzzling.
---[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:16, 7 March 2020 (UTC) EDIT: And the mystery deepens, because apparently one has to be [[DF2014:Interaction_examples|very specific]] about phrasing...downright incantational,really...in order to get a clear result with this.

:If you're in a versioned namespace (like DF2014), links will be within that namespace by default; otherwise, they will use the main namespace. Looks like a [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Interaction_examples&action=history redirect was created] in this case and both of those links seem to work now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

== Obok Meatgod ==

Hey Lethesor, thanks for all the work you do for DFhack. I have a favour to ask. I was using the "random page" feature and I stumbled upon [[Obok Meatgod|this article]]. The article is about an adventure mode game from the Bay12 forums where some dude modded genitals into his game so he could [do some really vile stuff]. I don't mean to bug ''you'' about it, but I'm getting an internal error when I try to start a talk page on the article. Basically, can you delete this article? I'm all for some good shock humour, and I know DF stories can get pretty brutal, but this doesn't really seem like it's supposed to be funny. The forum page it links back to just reads like some edge-lord's fanfic power fantasy. Maybe I'm mistaken and this ''is'' relevant to DF, but if not, mind doing me a favour and just purging it from the wiki?
--[[Special:Contributions/130.211.1.83|130.211.1.83]] 00:33, 2 April 2020 (UTC) Jon
:I did a bit of research - given that it was deleted from Bay12 and DFFD, I think I'll follow suit and delete it from here too. (It's not permanent here - an admin could always get it back.) Thanks for bringing it to my attention. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:24, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
::Thanks Lethesor! [[Special:Contributions/35.191.8.35|35.191.8.35]] 17:07, 2 April 2020 (UTC) Jon

== Regarding a certain subst tag: ==

(Stop me if I miss anything, please.)

IIRC, its a since-deprecated holdover of some kind of Wikipedian affiliation, that is pretty much purge-on-sight when found in art licensing around here. The important question is, how to proceed, if at all, when evidence is discovered of apparent holdouts of that sort [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?search=subst%3A&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go further afield], outside the verified-for-deletion parameters? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

:I suggest [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Substitution MediaWiki's documentation] for information on what subst does. It's not specifically something that came from Wikipedia. One caveat is that if the template being substituted didn't exist when the page was saved, the subst: won't get replaced until you save the page again. However, in this case, it looks like I [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Licenses&diff=prev&oldid=249061 removed] the subst: part from where these templates were being used, so yes, on image pages, removing the "subst: prefix is fine.
:From the search results you linked, a lot of the subst occurrences appear to be in [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Wikitext_examples#HTML_tags HTML comments], so they won't get substituted when the page is saved. They also won't be displayed to readers, though. I suspect that's either stuff left over from version migrations or moving things to templates. I wouldn't put too much effort into dealing with those, unless you find something on a current-version page (in which case I'd say move things out of the comment if they're relevant or delete them if they're obsolete). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

== Lost password/email request ==

User: DDR
I've lost the email and password I apparently used to set up my account on this wiki, over a decade ago.

I'm [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=20574 DDR on the forum], which I still have my login for… and the mantis bugtracker, and DFFD.

Thank you. Sorry for the trouble.

:Sent a PM on the forums. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

== Further comment ==

It's hard to continue to [[wikipedia:WP:AGF|assume good faith]] in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASilverwing235&type=revision&diff=256707&oldid=256705 this case], when the user in question tries to bury discussion of their behavior. Obviously that tactic isn't very effective, but it's a far cry from the openness and transparency required for the wiki to function as a collaborative project. Anyway, I firmly believe in [[wikipedia:WP:AAGF|WP:AAGF]] as a part of [[wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]], which is part of the point I tried to raise in that discussion (which was then ''erased''). I'm linking these policies not because I think you're unfamiliar, but because I want to be clear on where I'm coming from. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 17:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

:We don't have many of our own policies on things like this, but I'll take a look at the ones you linked since I'm not very familiar with them, particularly AAGF. It occurs to me that some of my comments may have come across as not following AAGF, and I apologize for that - I was (and still am) trying to follow AGF on my end, but it is challenging in this situation. I didn't intend to imply that you were not. As for the talk page edits, [[wikipedia:WP:OWNTALK|WP:OWNTALK]] seems to match my thoughts on the matter. Silverwing235's comment appears (to me) to be a more explicit acknowledgement of the criticism you raised, rather than an implicit acknowledgement by just removing your comment. I think your criticism was understood, in any case. (I do plan to respond to the AIV discussion, but am not sure how best to do that yet. In any case, I appreciate your concern for the wiki, and would like to find a solution that's acceptable to everyone involved.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

::A few phrases in my comments below are bolded—it's really just to emphasize structure, not to alter tone.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 22:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::---
::I actually wasn't talking about you when I referred to AAGF and my comment (and its erasure). I meant that Silverwing235 has—on this occasion and others—assumed that other editors are ''not engaging'' in good faith, and also that they are ''not assuming'' good faith (as when Silverwing235 referred to me as a “saboteur”); and that Silverwing235's own actions (''immediate'' removal of comments in ongoing discussions from their talk page—I believe this argument stands irrespective of [[wikipedia:OWNTALK|OWNTALK]]) make it hard to ''continue'' to assume good faith on their part.
::And, related to that: I have a hard time parsing many of Silverwing235's comments throughout. They're often vague and overcooked to the point of obscurity. There's very little there—even after the comment removal—that acknowledges the existence of a dispute over either past or ongoing behaviors, let alone the need for specific behaviors to change (let alone ''why'' those behaviors are wrong, or ''how'' those behaviors should change). Where there ''is'', there is also language implying that the issue is really with ''other'' editors and ''their'' disagreement—as if other editors are wrong to raise an issue in the first place. But as Silverwing235's edit summaries (and, incidentally, User+Talk comments) have repeatedly implied, they edit things to suit their personal tastes, ''not'' necessarily to correct mistakes (which they sometimes ''assert'' they are doing, but as has been seen, they frequently are not).
::---
::Another example of the general problem raised in AIV popped up yesterday: while reviewing a substantial [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&curid=31137&diff=256715&oldid=247968 IP edit] (which, to me, looked good), I noticed that the edits immediately prior to it were Silverwing235's, made in late 2019 (soon after their dispute with Loci had ended in Loci's departure). And I quickly saw that [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014%3AClimate&type=revision&diff=247966&oldid=247965 this edit] was again, apparently, a “stylistic” change which Silverwing235 may honestly have believed necessary (for their own reasons), but which was [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&diff=prev&oldid=256717 actually erroneous]. This sort of edit is partially why I cited IDHT and CIR (which, ''together'', are relevant here, I think) in the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&oldid=256704 AIV discussion].
::And although I can understand why Voliol might have gotten the contrary impression in the AIV discussion, I'm not advocating a high bar for entry, here. I'm saying that if '''an editor has been told to avoid imposing their own judgment where they cannot articulate a rationale''' (such as when deciding whether [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Disruptive_Editing commas] need to be inserted before every occurence of [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256609 “if”] and “as”; whether a pair of parentheses should be [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Troubleshooting&diff=prev&oldid=256503 replaced] with an approximation to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Em_dash some other punctuation]; whether “he” and “she” should be [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256638 replaced], or [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256641 eliminated], or simply [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=247445&oldid=247317 left alone] where they already occur; or whether [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Fairy&diff=prev&oldid=256548 miscellaneous comments oblique to the rest of an article] are necessary or even appropriate), as Silverwing235 has, '''but they continue to do so''', then that presents a problem related to both judgment and behavior (hence IDHT, tangential to CIR).
::---
::Now, I hate to have these two discussions at the same time, but at this point, it would be counterproductive to fork it, so: I see that Silverwing235 has actually objected to the ''whole AIV discussion'' on the basis that they do not believe DE constitutes vandalism (which obviously it does not, in general). But as I acknowledged in my first contribution there, the prior AIV thread seemed to be the most appropriate place to make my comments due to the discussion which showed this user has faced similar criticism before. And, as I mentioned both above and in AIV, there is a pattern of civility issues which existed at least as early as that AIV thread. In particular, their [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Loci#Discussion_in.2C_supposedly.2C_proper_context... responses] to criticism from Loci and in this case have been a mixture of aggressive and [[wikipedia:WP:INDCRIT|passive-aggressive]]. And again, it's hard to assume good faith when critical comments are removed ''immediately'' and without either '''a discussion''' or a '''clear''' and '''substantial''' '''acknowledgment''' that those comments referred to an ongoing pattern of behavior that must change (change ''what'', change ''how'', change ''why''). I.e., yes, users control their own talk pages, but that doesn't prevent their changes from being interpreted one way or another; and in this case, it's hard not to interpret Silverwing235's changes as ''avoiding the issue''. I understand their stated desire to avoid content which [[wikipedia:WP:MASTODON|affects them emotionally]], but this is about conduct as much as it is about content.
::---
::The only reason I've raised this is to avoid continued unease. I don't like writing about disputes, and I prefer to think of the wiki community as inclusive rather than exclusive. But again, it's harder to want to edit if this behavior—not just from Silverwing235, but from ''any'' editor—is unconstrained except by laborious trial and error (a huge time ''and energy'' suck, when you consider putting up with breaks from CIVIL). And I'm not alone in this (which I mention only to emphasize that this is not personal—and I'm ''not'' invoking a silent majority, whether one exists or not, and ultimately, it's not just about this one editor).
::---
::In any case, I appreciate your participation in the matter and in conveying suggestions about specific edits to this editor.
::'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 22:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Point one: Yes, the notion about 'a more explicit acknowledgement' was accurate. A personal policy that I came up with re my talk page: 'If it would cause me significant emotional distress, either immediately or at any time during a review of the content, (aka: 'Nope, not having ''that'' around, causing trouble') it gets removed. If, IMHO, the removal itself would raise questions (as it appears to have done in this case) it will at least get a hopefully emotionally-neutral summary and acknowledgement of the thing that caused my upset to begin with. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

== Redirect ==

Hello. I noticed in the recent changes you reverted the edit on [[Textile Industry]], and I realized that my edit on [[Expedition Leader]] falls in the same category. The problem is that, as long as they exist, those pages will always appear on autocomplete, and they won't redirect properly if left as is. So I propose that until a decision is made for them to be deleted, that they be allowed to redirect properly to not confuse people who find them through autocomplete, like me. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 20:51, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:The underlying cause here is a Mediawiki bug with double redirects, discussed in detail at [[DF:REDIR]]'s talk page. Making ''any'' sort of edit to the first page in the chain will fix broken double redirects, so even though I reverted your edit, [[Textile Industry]] redirects correctly now, even from the search bar. The other important point is that you need to use "cv" for the namespace in redirect targets - hardcoding a specific version like "DF2014" will have the wrong behavior when we add a new namespace. In this case, I have deleted the page you edited, since [[Expedition leader]] (lowercase L) already exists and turns up in search results (and follows [[DF:Rule N]]). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::Very well. Thank you for your time. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 21:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
:::I should clarify: you're welcome to fix redirects like this that you notice, as long as you use "cv" (and there's a reminder that appears above the edit box when editing pages in the main namespace, in case that's useful). If you notice redirects whose only difference is capitalization, feel free to tag them for deletion with {{tl|delete}} and I can handle them. It occurs to me now that [[Textile Industry]] is another example of that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

== Drastic error in judgement ensues.. ==

Derped by starting [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014_Talk:Block this up], in a way it turned out I rather shouldn't have - mind cleaning up? Thanks. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 19:43, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:I'm not sure - what are you asking me to do? I'm hesitant to remove a discussion entirely, but if it's redundant to one on another talk page, I suppose I could archive it. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

...Yeah, archival was what I meant - one is always slightly frazzled when caught prepping to sign off for the night. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 09:49, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

== Random/cv ==

Not that I want more clutter, but what do you think about putting [[Special:Random/cv]] link in the sidebar? '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 16:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Sriefmadsakzro

2021-02-23T15:57:06Z

Sriefmadsakzro: indentation

== A post facto analysis of your revert.. ==

...yes, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&diff=256828&oldid=256806| this has me rather confused]. The gratuitous Latin may have been a bit much, similarly some instances of comma misuse. But taking a bunch of likely-looking sentences to try and improve the surrounding paragraph(s) as part of a rewrite, and having ''that'' reverted... is the core issue here.(A thing worthy of the 'minor edit' tag, certainly.) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:55, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:I appreciate your willingness to come here and ask me to explain, and I'm glad to see that you could predict some of the issues I took with your edit. (You even guessed that I would object to usage of “Exempli gratia” over “E.g.” or, better yet, “For example”!)
:I may respond more completely when I have time later, but for now, I'd like to go through the diff you linked and say which of your changes are (in my opinion) worth ''keeping''. (I might specify ''some'' that you should avoid, but I don't know if I'll touch on ''all'' of them—if there's one in particular that I don't ultimately mention, and you want me to explain it, please bring it up specifically.)
----
:✓ Insert “E.g.”/“For example” (just not the full Latin phrase, as you clearly know you shouldn't), but the rest of that paragraph looks alright as it is.
::✕ I ''don't'' think you should try again to combine any of the sentences of this paragraph. (I would invite you to convince me otherwise, but life is short, and I'm really not in the mood. And again, the rest of the paragraph is fine—in particular, it's structurally cohesive.)
:✓ Insert the “also” from your original edit (under “Blocks vs. rocks”).
:✕ I ''don't'' think it's useful to insert “the” into “... weigh much less than [_] raw forms of construction...”—anyway, it's not necessary.
:: This is a somewhat subtle point about a clearly minor change, but ''it is actually one of the reasons I reverted your edit.'' However, if nothing else had been wrong with your edit, this issue would ''not'' have been enough to cause me to revert it. ''That doesn't mean that I wouldn't still have objected to this particular insertion''—it's still not something you needed to do, let alone should have done—but it ''does'' mean that I don't think the result was harmful enough to deserve much scrutiny by itself. (I.e., I think ''you'' should consider avoiding this kind of change, but I don't think editors in general should spend much time thinking about it.)
:✕ I ''don't'' think you should try to edit the paragraph “Building a bridge...”—all three of those commas were erroneous (i.e., wrong, not merely unnecessary). If you couldn't find a rule of English grammar which requires a comma to appear in those positions, you should not have inserted them there.
:: ''This is something you've been asked not to do, and was the primary reason I reverted your edit''. I hope you can see why this strikes me as egregious. If you can't, know that although I wouldn't much mind explaining again (if you ask), there isn't much more to say—you were asked not to do it. As I say, I could still try to elaborate if that is what you want.
:✱ In the paragraph “Unlike raw stone or wood...”, the original is fine. Your change (combining the sentences with a comma, replacing “this” with “which”) would have been better if you had furthermore removed the word “also” from that sentence. (Thus, I think you should '''either''' ''leave it be'', or ''implement your change'' '''''and''''' ''remove the word “also”'').
:✕ In the paragraph “Blocks are more valuable than rocks...”, the first two sentences ''don't'' need to be combined. The word “having” is clumsier than a full stop there between them; if this needs explanation, I can elaborate.
:✓ In the same paragraph (“Blocks are more valuable than rocks...”), your inserted comma was correct, and should be added.
----
:I think that addresses each of the changes in the diff.
:If you choose to restore any of the changes I mentioned, though, '''make each distinct change in a different edit'''—and IMO, you should do that with ''every'' revision that you make to this wiki. It will enable other editors to refer to the revisions ''separately'', since each revision will then have its own diff. Grouping a large number of changes sensibly requires an editor to exercise judgment, and in this case, I don't think the grouping was helpful.
:That said, keep in mind that if a “problem edit” appears in the middle of a series of okay edits, that presents a small annoyance for other editors—thus, '''before''' you make an extensive edit which you have an urge to make, you should carefully consider whether you're doing the right thing, and not just the thing you want to do. [[wikipedia:WP:BOLD|Boldness]] is useful when adding content, but [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Basic_copyediting#Etiquette copy editing] is a special activity in which the rules, while subject to change, are ''received'', and fancy isn't conducive to good results. “Boldness” in copy editing involves being ''certain'' of a number of details about the state of the original and how it could be altered (all with respect for “the” rules) ''for the better'' (not simply ''altered'').
:You can choose to ignore any or all of my advice—you don't need me to tell you that—but obviously, I don't think you should.
:Finally—and please understand that this is not meant to be unfriendly, but just a statement about practicality—neither I nor any other editor will be able to give you all the details you need to avoid repeatedly committing the same or similar errors in every edit you make. If you frequently make the wrong judgment about a certain kind of change (as I think you consistently do with the insertion of commas, and often also in combining sentences and other operations involving the placement of new punctuation), then it might be better to simply '''stop yourself''' from making that kind of change. Don't make it other editors' responsibility to keep your edits in line.
:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 18:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
::Based on your edits to [[block]] subsequent to the revert, I think some of my points above were misunderstood (for example, the paragraph where you inserted “E.g.:” with other rephrasing). I also notice that I didn't actually cover a couple of changes which ''ought'' to be made (such as an ''or'' after ''arrowheads''). Since I see now that you have [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&diff=prev&oldid=256846 self-reverted], I assume that you are in the process of making other changes, so I'm going to withhold further comment.
::The point isn't that the article is perfect as it is—I actually think many of these things ''should'' be revised. The point is that that doesn't mean it should be changed in ways that aren't warranted (and definitely not in ways that are simultaneously wrong without making anything better). In particular, any intentional restructuring should serve a concrete purpose (other than to satisfy a single editor's taste or any ''feeling'' that something isn't right), as should any superficial alteration of punctuation, grammar, diction, etc., which furthermore '''''should not introduce an error where none existed in the original.'''''
::'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:56, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

TBH, what you thought was a 'self-revert' was, in fact, an '[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&oldid=256848| editorial pirouette]' to deal with your comma suggestion, which had failed to be implemented properly on the first go around. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:53, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:Offhand (''not'' looking), I don't really know what you mean. If it helps, I was referring to [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&diff=prev&oldid=256846 this diff] (which I linked earlier), which reverted a number of changes you'd made in the several prior edits. Either way, it signaled that you were in the middle of more changes and that I might as well let you finish before comparing. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 13:56, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
::Oh dear, in that case, I was clearly ''a bit too subtle'' on signalling that I was actually '''done''' with changes, whoops! [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 14:05, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
:::I'm again not sure what you mean, since (looking now) it looks like there were additional edits just minutes after that one. Keep in mind, even if an editor replies to talk messages, they're probably not actively monitoring recent changes to other pages. (This side-discussion is a total non-issue, so I'm not going to worry about the resolving the details further. Any remaining confusion can be ignored.) '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 15:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Sriefmadsakzro

2021-02-23T15:55:23Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* A post facto analysis of your revert.. */ replied

== A post facto analysis of your revert.. ==

...yes, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&diff=256828&oldid=256806| this has me rather confused]. The gratuitous Latin may have been a bit much, similarly some instances of comma misuse. But taking a bunch of likely-looking sentences to try and improve the surrounding paragraph(s) as part of a rewrite, and having ''that'' reverted... is the core issue here.(A thing worthy of the 'minor edit' tag, certainly.) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:55, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:I appreciate your willingness to come here and ask me to explain, and I'm glad to see that you could predict some of the issues I took with your edit. (You even guessed that I would object to usage of “Exempli gratia” over “E.g.” or, better yet, “For example”!)
:I may respond more completely when I have time later, but for now, I'd like to go through the diff you linked and say which of your changes are (in my opinion) worth ''keeping''. (I might specify ''some'' that you should avoid, but I don't know if I'll touch on ''all'' of them—if there's one in particular that I don't ultimately mention, and you want me to explain it, please bring it up specifically.)
----
:✓ Insert “E.g.”/“For example” (just not the full Latin phrase, as you clearly know you shouldn't), but the rest of that paragraph looks alright as it is.
::✕ I ''don't'' think you should try again to combine any of the sentences of this paragraph. (I would invite you to convince me otherwise, but life is short, and I'm really not in the mood. And again, the rest of the paragraph is fine—in particular, it's structurally cohesive.)
:✓ Insert the “also” from your original edit (under “Blocks vs. rocks”).
:✕ I ''don't'' think it's useful to insert “the” into “... weigh much less than [_] raw forms of construction...”—anyway, it's not necessary.
:: This is a somewhat subtle point about a clearly minor change, but ''it is actually one of the reasons I reverted your edit.'' However, if nothing else had been wrong with your edit, this issue would ''not'' have been enough to cause me to revert it. ''That doesn't mean that I wouldn't still have objected to this particular insertion''—it's still not something you needed to do, let alone should have done—but it ''does'' mean that I don't think the result was harmful enough to deserve much scrutiny by itself. (I.e., I think ''you'' should consider avoiding this kind of change, but I don't think editors in general should spend much time thinking about it.)
:✕ I ''don't'' think you should try to edit the paragraph “Building a bridge...”—all three of those commas were erroneous (i.e., wrong, not merely unnecessary). If you couldn't find a rule of English grammar which requires a comma to appear in those positions, you should not have inserted them there.
:: ''This is something you've been asked not to do, and was the primary reason I reverted your edit''. I hope you can see why this strikes me as egregious. If you can't, know that although I wouldn't much mind explaining again (if you ask), there isn't much more to say—you were asked not to do it. As I say, I could still try to elaborate if that is what you want.
:✱ In the paragraph “Unlike raw stone or wood...”, the original is fine. Your change (combining the sentences with a comma, replacing “this” with “which”) would have been better if you had furthermore removed the word “also” from that sentence. (Thus, I think you should '''either''' ''leave it be'', or ''implement your change'' '''''and''''' ''remove the word “also”'').
:✕ In the paragraph “Blocks are more valuable than rocks...”, the first two sentences ''don't'' need to be combined. The word “having” is clumsier than a full stop there between them; if this needs explanation, I can elaborate.
:✓ In the same paragraph (“Blocks are more valuable than rocks...”), your inserted comma was correct, and should be added.
----
:I think that addresses each of the changes in the diff.
:If you choose to restore any of the changes I mentioned, though, '''make each distinct change in a different edit'''—and IMO, you should do that with ''every'' revision that you make to this wiki. It will enable other editors to refer to the revisions ''separately'', since each revision will then have its own diff. Grouping a large number of changes sensibly requires an editor to exercise judgment, and in this case, I don't think the grouping was helpful.
:That said, keep in mind that if a “problem edit” appears in the middle of a series of okay edits, that presents a small annoyance for other editors—thus, '''before''' you make an extensive edit which you have an urge to make, you should carefully consider whether you're doing the right thing, and not just the thing you want to do. [[wikipedia:WP:BOLD|Boldness]] is useful when adding content, but [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Basic_copyediting#Etiquette copy editing] is a special activity in which the rules, while subject to change, are ''received'', and fancy isn't conducive to good results. “Boldness” in copy editing involves being ''certain'' of a number of details about the state of the original and how it could be altered (all with respect for “the” rules) ''for the better'' (not simply ''altered'').
:You can choose to ignore any or all of my advice—you don't need me to tell you that—but obviously, I don't think you should.
:Finally—and please understand that this is not meant to be unfriendly, but just a statement about practicality—neither I nor any other editor will be able to give you all the details you need to avoid repeatedly committing the same or similar errors in every edit you make. If you frequently make the wrong judgment about a certain kind of change (as I think you consistently do with the insertion of commas, and often also in combining sentences and other operations involving the placement of new punctuation), then it might be better to simply '''stop yourself''' from making that kind of change. Don't make it other editors' responsibility to keep your edits in line.
:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 18:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
::Based on your edits to [[block]] subsequent to the revert, I think some of my points above were misunderstood (for example, the paragraph where you inserted “E.g.:” with other rephrasing). I also notice that I didn't actually cover a couple of changes which ''ought'' to be made (such as an ''or'' after ''arrowheads''). Since I see now that you have [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&diff=prev&oldid=256846 self-reverted], I assume that you are in the process of making other changes, so I'm going to withhold further comment.
::The point isn't that the article is perfect as it is—I actually think many of these things ''should'' be revised. The point is that that doesn't mean it should be changed in ways that aren't warranted (and definitely not in ways that are simultaneously wrong without making anything better). In particular, any intentional restructuring should serve a concrete purpose (other than to satisfy a single editor's taste or any ''feeling'' that something isn't right), as should any superficial alteration of punctuation, grammar, diction, etc., which furthermore '''''should not introduce an error where none existed in the original.'''''
::'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:56, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

TBH, what you thought was a 'self-revert' was, in fact, an '[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&oldid=256848| editorial pirouette]' to deal with your comma suggestion, which had failed to be implemented properly on the first go around. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:53, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:Offhand (''not'' looking), I don't really know what you mean. If it helps, I was referring to [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&diff=prev&oldid=256846 this diff] (which I linked earlier), which reverted a number of changes you'd made in the several prior edits. Either way, it signaled that you were in the middle of more changes and that I might as well let you finish before comparing. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 13:56, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Oh dear, in that case, I was clearly ''a bit too subtle'' on signalling that I was actually '''done''' with changes, whoops! [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 14:05, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
:I'm again not sure what you mean, since (looking now) it looks like there were additional edits just minutes after that one. Keep in mind, even if an editor replies to talk messages, they're probably not actively monitoring recent changes to other pages. (This side-discussion is a total non-issue, so I'm not going to worry about the resolving the details further. Any remaining confusion can be ignored.) '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 15:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Sriefmadsakzro

2021-02-23T13:56:29Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* A post facto analysis of your revert.. */ replied

User talk:Sriefmadsakzro

2021-02-22T20:56:39Z

Sriefmadsakzro: followup

DF2014 Talk:Block

2021-02-22T19:31:51Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Further adjustment required? */ replied

== Further adjustment required? ==

As in, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Block&curid=30937&diff=256835&oldid=256828| any alternative] to a revert? Because I do recall someone - Loci, perhaps - pointing out that its possible to go overboard on the commas, which might very well have happened in this case, good intentions or no (and they ''were'' good, of course - but then, I would say that, wouldn't I?) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:Please see [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Sriefmadsakzro&curid=40899&oldid=256839 the discussion of this which you started on my talk page]. You were reverted rather than spot fixed both because you've been asked repeatedly not to make certain changes which you continue to make, and because it is unreasonable to expect other editors to sift (repeatedly) your edits to salvage other (frequently extraneous and, often enough, unwarranted) '''m'''inor changes which you've lumped into the same edit with those.
:Frankly, I don't know what to make of the comments you made above about your intentions—they are unnecessarily dramatic for the wiki, and definitely don't belong on this talk page.
:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 19:31, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Sriefmadsakzro

2021-02-22T18:42:24Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* A post facto analysis of your revert.. */ replied

Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Administrative intervention against vandalism

2021-02-22T16:29:24Z

Sriefmadsakzro: replied

<div style="text-align:left;">
{| class="infobox plainlinks" id="" style="background-color: #eef5ff; border: 1px solid #0088CC; font-size: 90%; margin: 1em 0em 0em; padding: 2px; text-align: left; width: 100%; border-top-left-radius:8px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:8px; -webkit-border-top-left-radius:8px; border-bottom-right-radius:8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:8px; -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius:8px;"
! colspan="2" style="border: 1px solid #0088CC; font-weight:bold; background-color: #8ce; padding-left: 1em; padding-right: 1em; border-top-left-radius:4px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:4px; -webkit-border-top-left-radius:4px; border-bottom-right-radius:4px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:4px; -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius:4px;" |'''Instructions'''
|-
|
#Reported edits must constitute vandalism.
#Link to both an example of the user's vandalism (the revision, not the current page — you can use the "Permanent link") and the user's talk page (which is included with {{tl|User}}).
#Add new reports to the top of the list. Use format: <nowiki>#Reporting user {{User|Briess}} for edits [link], [link] and [link] ~~~~ </nowiki>
#Please remember to sign the report with <code>~~</code><code>~~</code>
#If a report has remained here for more than 24 hours and no action has been taken, please leave a message on an [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=sysop&limit=50 admin's] talk page.
|}
</div>
==Reports==

* Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/89.187.170.169|89.187.170.169]] for inserting spam into [[Utility:Dwarf_Therapist/Addons_Repository]].
* Reporting...vandalism-adjecent shenanigans from an anon, as expected {{user|dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/168.216.12.16}} Example:(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Intelligent_undead&oldid=255682) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
** Blocked - I think all edits have been reverted as well. (No need to mark reports as "minor" changes, by the way) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
* If I might be permitted to include a brief personal opinion here, this is an example of what happens when one has a perfect storm of a virus, its quarantine procedures, and protests, all together. So, reporting user {{user|BurnLootMurder}} for gibbering-insane [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Material&curid=31922&diff=252946&oldid=249363 '''trolling and vandalism''', which should really have a CW for implied violence and encouragement to doxxing on it, IMHO] The obvious solution being, to block and revert with due speed.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 09:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
** Done —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
*Reporting user {{user|DogfanDFNerd‎}} for repeatedly trying to change the [[:File:WikiLogo 4fa619.png|wiki logo]] with a low quality replacement. Something as important as the logo shouldn't be meddled with by non-admins, much less users without any edits, and the fact they can't be bothered to fix the glaring spelling mistake by the third time suspends my belief that this is being done in good faith. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 13:59, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
** Sorry for the delay - I've protected the page. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
*Reporting user {{User|Silverwing235}} for a long-standing pattern of problematic editing. As an example, after the first 3 times Silverwing235 [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247287&oldid=247280 added this error], I [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&curid=36342&diff=247295&oldid=241756 explained the problem] on Silverwing235's talk page. Silverwing235 [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=next&oldid=247295 removed that explanation] with the comment "message received and understood", then less than a day later [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247303&oldid=247296 made the same edit a fourth time]. Silverwing235 started making many problematic edits in July 2018, received a [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=238883&oldid=238709 warning in January 2019], and has continued unabated since; just this weekend I wasted more than two hours reviewing and reverting this user's edits. Sadly, it appears nothing short of a block will stop the problematic editing.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
** Thank you for dealing with this. As I haven't been very active on the wiki recently, I don't want to take any administrative action on this alone, particularly since some of Silverwing235's edits that I've seen have been constructive (and I don't personally have a good sense of how many have been disruptive). Edit warring isn't good, though - if you've seen more instances of that, or a large number of disruptive edits recently, let me know. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
***The last time you [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=238890&oldid=238883 suggested doing nothing] (nine months ago) it didn't work; I see no reason to assume the results will be different this time around. Since January, Silverwing235 has made 1779 edits, and I have made more than 265 reversions. You might then assume that means that 85% of Silverwing235's edits were "constructive", but the number is considerably lower; Silverwing235 tends to "serial-edit" the same article multiple times in a row and I revert to the last-good version with a single edit. In fact, Silverwing235 has the "current" edit on only 487 of those pages in that time frame, which charitably estimates the "constructive" edit rate somewhere around 50%. Anyway, this prolonged situation has sapped my desire to work on the wiki, so you'll need to find someone else to proofread Silverwing235's edits.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
****I don't think doing nothing is the solution, but I think some of these edits are pretty subjective. Of the edits you reverted today, I agree with [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Meat_industry&diff=prev&oldid=247436] (although the section is admittedly inconsistent with its other 7 sibling sections), and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Equipment&diff=prev&oldid=247438] (although this is pretty minor, the "each" shouldn't have been removed). I think [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=247437&oldid=247435] was unclear both ways (only the first and third action led to the consequence in the same sentence, which I tried to address [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=next&oldid=247437 here]). As for [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Armor&diff=prev&oldid=247439], you reverted several reasonable changes besides the singular "they"-related change. (I probably would have done the same after dealing with a number of earlier edits, to be fair.) I don't think "he" or "it" can apply to "dwarf or other creature" in every case, but regardless of that, singular "they" is controversial, as you have mentioned. Neither [[DF:MOS|this wiki]] nor [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia] seem to take a strong stance on the matter, so in my book, it's a personal preference - it's not right or wrong. I am unwilling to take administrative action over it, and I don't want to see edit wars over it either (i.e. going forward, I will side in favor of whatever choice was made in the article before it was changed). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:59, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
**I hate to add to this old thread, but, as it has been raised before, it seems appropriate. As Loci said in 2019, this '''is''' a long-standing pattern, and this user makes a large number of edits every month. One example: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256610&oldid=256609], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256621&oldid=256620], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256644&oldid=256643]. I was an active editor on the wiki some years ago—not that it matters—and since I rejoined, this kind of editing showing up in the recent changes has been a huge distraction from any other editing I mean to do. I know this ''isn't'' Wikipedia, but this kind of editing—literally declaiming “stylistic [sic] sense be damned” in edit summaries (which are always marked '''m'''—why?)—is the reason why Wikipedia has policies like [[wikipedia:WP:CIR|WP:CIR]], [[wikipedia:WP:DE|WP:DE]], [[wikipedia:WP:DDE|WP:DDE]], and especially [[wikipedia:WP:IDHT|WP:IDHT]]. It's hard to consider any wiki editing ''productive'' when there is no constraint on this behavior. The large number of similar edits (often "serial" edits, as Loci mentioned) performed by this single editor means that anything another editor adds will probably be similarly “fixed” within a few months. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 21:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
***I’d like to add my own third-person (second-person?) perspective on this. One of being a non-native English writer prone to making the kind of mistakes SilverWing fixes. Thanks to that, I (and others) don’t have to worry as much about perfecting the language while adding information, which makes adding. Conversely, I believe the strict rules of Wikipedia makes it harder for new editors to join. For Wikipedia, this may be a positive as it increases the quality, but this wiki is one starved for editors and can thus not afford such luxuries. It is true that SilverWing has a pattern of editing recently edited articles, which may bury those recent edits. As to why, my suspicion (backed up by what I remember them writing about it on the forum) is that they read the edit to check for errors/bad grammar, and then skim through the rest of the article while they are at it. The ’m’ is to mark that they didn’t add any info, only refactor what was already available. That way other wiki editors can chose to ignore those edits. (I believe that is the intended usage of the ’m’inor edit mark, am I wrong?) I’ve not seen them ”fix”/revert anything but changes to the syntax. They are obviously stubborn when it comes to that, perhaps in excess, but it should not disturb you when adding content. I believe that worry is unfounded. Ultimately, while grammar is subjective means not all of SilverWing’s edits are clearly productive, but I’d still argue that having someone like them adds a certain polish to the wiki we would otherwise miss out on. —[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 01:05, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****To the contrary: Silverwing235 often '''introduces''' errors in both grammar and syntax. That is actually the point of this thread.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:21, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****The problem I have with that assessment is that, from the (admittedly not thorough) looks I've had at Silverwing235's edit history, a lot of edits ''have'' been productive. Some have fixed mistakes that other editors have introduced, like Voliol described, which has a positive impact on the wiki. As for how to deal with the edits that introduce errors, see my comment below. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******I didn't say they ''always'' introduce errors, but they ''often'' do. On Wikipedia, this was once a fairly common problem, but a variety of policies have reduced both its occurrence and its impact. WP editors who consistently try to make “corrections” to a narrow set of linguistic features, ''often'' committing certain kinds of error—for example, “correcting” occurrences of “or” so that it is almost always preceded by a comma—are considered disruptive, ''even if many of their edits are productive''. And while this wiki isn't Wikipedia, and has its own specific needs, etc., the problem is probably about the same (though it might ultimately be worse for this wiki, since the number of editors active on a given day is a tiny fraction). '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 19:30, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
*** Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256644]. A comma might have been a better choice than a semicolon, but ''no'' punctuation there makes the sentence more difficult to parse. This is a situation where I would encourage a talk page or user page discussion as appropriate. I do think your [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256645 most recent edit] was a good compromise, though. [Edit: maybe the comma should have gone after "visitor" instead, but that's beside the point - this was a good-faith attempt to make the article more readable, and it should have been responded to with an improvement, not a reversion.] More generally, I don't want to block individual users for making edits like this. I have been keeping an eye on [[Special:RecentChanges]], and I think most of Silverwing235's changes in recent months have been uncontroversial compared to the ones that Loci originally report here. I ''am'' willing to temporarily lock pages in the cases of arguments being made in edit summaries, such as the one you and Silverwing participated in here, if necessary. I think I agree with Voliol for the most part, and invoking [[wikipedia:WP:CIR]] doesn't seem appropriate to me. Some edit summaries don't make sense, but I think that minor changes are generally tagged appropriately, and you can filter them out from [[Special:RecentChanges]] if you like. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:50, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****Re [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256644]: that's why '''I''' finally edited it myself. Silverwing235's edit ''introduced errors'' rather than ''fix'' it. To be honest, I don't have time to clarify the rest of this. See my edit history since I rejoined just a few weeks ago. It's enough for me to see that a long-time editor like Loci actually appears to have abandoned the wiki over similar problems—I, myself, am probably out as well. There just isn't time. I wanted to add to articles relevant to modding, now that DF has undergone several updates (and much of the information about the raws here appears to be outdated or “partially correct” since then). That no one has addressed Silverwing235's behavior is surprising. I have huge respect for you, otherwise, Lethosor, but I think you've got the wrong impression here. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:16, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****I think there was an attempt to fix the run-on sentence there originally, and I would typically tend to agree with [[Wikipedia:WP:NOTPERFECT]]. That is, I think that since there was an attempt to improve the article, other editors should prefer to continue to improve the article, or figure out some mutually-agreeable solution, rather than simply reverting changes. However,
******in this case, I see why [[Wikipedia:WP:IDHT]] could apply, given that the error was reverted multiple times (I think this is more oriented towards lengthy discussions, not edit warring, but it could be applied to the latter too).
******I understand that attempting to improve erroneous edits is more time-consuming than simply reverting them. I often don't have time to screen everything myself.
******I appreciate your concern for the wiki, and I don't want to drive editors away. We need the kind of content that you want to add, just as much as we need the types of fixes Silverwing235 is attempting to make. I would like to find some solution that can allow everyone to contribute.
******If Silverwing235 is making ''a lot'' of erroneous edits, to the point where the quality of the wiki is negatively impacted, then I agree that something should be done.
*****Here is my proposal - over the next couple weeks, I will look over as many of Silverwing235's edits as I can, focusing on more recent ones. I will note any that I consider productive ''or'' counterproductive, although I may not be able to address all of the latter. You're welcome to flag any that you think I should consider, although you're under no obligation to. If I notice a significant number of counterproductive edits, I will send them over to Silverwing235 (and link them here). After that, if similar edits continue, I think that would warrant more warnings and/or administrative action (again, I would greatly prefer not to take severe steps like an immediate block). What do you think of this? If there are ways that Wikipedia handles situations like this, I'd be open to hearing about them too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******Before I say anything else, I want to briefly address a question sort of implicit in the phrasing of your first point. I really don't think you intended to raise it, but a random reader skipping to this part of the thread might not realize that. ''Do I object to anyone's trying to improve the wiki?'' Of course not. I don't know whether I've written anything that might give someone that impression, but I hope this explicit statement is enough to quell any doubts. Editors should try to improve the wiki, and editors ''will'' make mistakes in the process. That is not the subject of this discussion.
******Regarding [[wikipedia:WP:NOTPERFECT|NOTPERFECT]]: I'm not sure if this is cited much outside the context of articles, often new or simply low-activity, which have ''existing'' issues, where either the article has been nominated for deletion or doubts about its suitability have been raised in talk or somewhere else. It's especially used as a defense against deletionists and exclusionists (though [https://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/08/wikipedia-muds-and-where-the-sources-are/ historically], that has rarely prevented a controversial [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_process#No_quorum deletion], particularly when [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability#General_notability_guideline it was inevitable]).
*****:It's also applicable when one or more editors have made ''substantial'' additions to an article, where the editors' spelling, grammar, organization, formatting etc. are not quite right (insufficient or poor sourcing usually triggers another set of considerations, but I would include it here as well, as long as the content isn't controversial or BLP etc.). But I don't think I've ever witnessed such an instance where anyone actually needed to ''cite'' this policy in a discussion that followed. (Not that I think I'm wrong about its applicability in those cases, just that they seem to “handle themselves” by virtue of other editors' assessment of the content. I think there are a few reasons for that, including the relative breadth and number of Wikipedia articles; the number of active editors, administrators, bureaucrats, etc.; and the imponderable volume of views and edits each day.)
******To me, this case—a single editor repeatedly introducing ''new'' issues to articles which (while themselves NOTPERFECT) did not already have such issues, usually in the process of making miscellaneous other '''m'''inor edits that ''do not'' substantially contribute to the content—is not an instance of either of those scenarios. An editor who ''knows'' that a minor correction needs to be made ''should make that correction''; but when in doubt (such as when an editor's judgment of a particular kind of correction has repeatedly led them astray), ''unless something substantial is being added, it's not necessarily productive to make a guess.'' For example, Silverwing235 has ''usually'' been correct in their adjustment of capitalization and plural formation intra-wiki links. But with respect to several other categories of edit (mostly also copy-, but not always—e.g., [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256767&oldid=256750]) which Silverwing235 gravitates to, they continue to make certain adjustments which they have been repeatedly corrected on (and in some cases advised not to make ''at all'', in order to avoid further issue).
*****:This is particularly troubling where it relates to similar edits which suggest the editor is imposing idiosyncratic usage (nonstandard punctuation, grammar, diction, etc., or a preference for one x over another where the extant form is equivalent or better) even after being informed of the mistake and asked to avoid repeating it. As (I think) Loci suggested somewhere, on Wikipedia this ''really is'' considered disruptive editing.
******About your proposal: before I read your most recent posts to this discussion, I actually started to write a note about a series of troubling edits from ''just the last two days'' that relate to the subject of this thread as well as [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&oldid=256734#Further_comment the User_talk spillover which began with Silverwing235's own comments on their own talk page]. If you don't mind, I'd like to take more time to read and respond to the entirety of what you wrote here (after “Here is my proposal”). But since I was going to post this note here anyway—again, only because from my point of view, this is part of a ''pattern'' of ''ongoing behavior'' which has already impacted the wiki, ''not'' because I think every problem edit deserves to be highlighted on this board (which I don't)—it might as well be part of the reply.
******Examples from just one article over two days:
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256370&oldid=256369] unnecessary revision, introduces erroneous punctuation; buried in history due to string of “serial edits”
******#: Relevant prior diffs include: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Die&diff=prev&oldid=256547], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Troubleshooting&diff=prev&oldid=256503] (not an exhaustive list).
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256767&oldid=256750] totally elective revision, also erroneous
******#: Edit summary suggests indifference to whether their basis is even true. Again, I think '''it's reasonable to expect the editor to''' be able to '''articulate a rationale''' for their edits. In Silverwing235's case, actually, it would help them to avoid this kind of problem altogether (and probably improve the quality of their editing) if they actually tried to do so ''before making each edit''. Rather than immediately revising something that they don't like the look of, they could first ask themselves some simple questions about what they're about to change; the answers to those questions would be used to write an actual edit summary (which, although they've been asked to write more thorough summaries, they didn't quite do in this case).
******#: Note: I followed up on this revert with a [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Bourgeoisie detailed response], which I only felt necessary because of this editor's ''persistence'' in making superficial changes that needlessly eliminate or render incorrect other editors' contributions. I would not ordinarily feel this was worth saying, but the general point has been made—and made forcefully—several times in the past. Why should an editor make changes when they can't articulate the reasons for those changes? Editors may be guided by instinct, but their revisions are supposed to be supported by more than their personal feeling about how something looks or sounds. Again, it's not that I think ''you'' don't know this; I'm simply trying to explain my tone.
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256797&oldid=256791] ''a day later'', same article, another unnecessary revision focusing on the same paragraph which was reverted the day before
******#: Uses a semicolon to combine an introductory sentence with the first of the following ''sequence'' of sentences which describe elements of the subject.
******#: I saw that you sifted this one and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256791&oldid=256767 partially restored] the prior version. I think at this point, the editor should have stopped trying to edit the superficial structure of the same paragraph. There are other articles to work on. Otherwise, sequences of similar edits and reverts can be construed (from the history) as a fixated attempt to circumvent consensus (re changes which were proscribed earlier).
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256798&oldid=256797] '''next''' ''day'', same article; unnecessary rewording introduces idiosyncratic commas
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256799&oldid=256798] ''minutes later'' (“serial edit”) to same article; ''another'' revision to the paragraph “Outside of the keep...”
******#: Another instance in which this editor asserts that the original author made a mistake (“butterfingered”) where there really wasn't one.
******#: Instead, this revision introduces an erroneous semicolon in a ''new'' place.
******#: Again, from the diffs and history, this (as the latest of a sequence of related edits) begins to “look” like a fixation with inserting a semicolon ''somewhere''. The paragraph didn't ''need'' any structural changes, nor did its tone or diction need to be rethought. Yet, after attempting to do all of these things, facing a revert each time, the editor ''persisted'' (introducing further errors where, initially, there were none).
******: At no stage in this process did the editor produce any rationale for the later changes they made to the very same sentences they'd targeted earlier—not even after being reverted several times.
******: Worse than that, many of these errors are of the same general kind as have previously been brought to the editor's attention (insertion of extraneous commas and semicolons; insertion of hyphens and clusters of other characters to produce punctuation nonconformal with English usage (usually in sentences that were already syntactically correct); incorrect or unnecessary merging of sentences or paragraphs; incorrect or unnecessary word substitution).
******: I genuinely would rather not be in the position of suggesting that an editor is doing something wrong that requires admin attention (whatever form that might take). I have no ill will toward the editor in question, but the process—including issuing advice which ''has already been given before'' (which is frequently already covered by MOS, besides), only to see that advice disregarded almost immediately (occasionally accompanied by comments with overt disregard for CIVIL, as I mentioned on your talk page), requiring ''further note-taking'' and ''further discussion on this board''—has become tedious.
******: I'll think about what you wrote in your proposal and write another (hopefully shorter) reply, if I think I have a useful suggestion. Obviously WP has advantages in this area which would be unrealistic or impractical for the wiki's purposes, but I don't think that's really an issue. It's not a matter of life or death, here, either; so, although I mean this commentary sincerely, I have no dear expectations about the outcome. (I do ''hope'' that the editor will take specific steps to learn to change their editing process, but as new editors come and go, the issue is bound to come around again, as it does on WP as well.) I'll try to continue participating constructively, though.
******:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 03:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
***I've encouraged Silverwing to leave better edit summaries, and to move discussions to talk pages if needed. Hopefully this helps encourage more productive changes like [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256645]. I do still want to be informed if you notice a persistent pattern of issues, but this looks to me like a single argument that stands out from a more recent pattern of mostly-helpful edits. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****I think this is the last thing I care to say about it: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Loci#Discussion_in.2C_supposedly.2C_proper_context...], as a response to [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&oldid=247295#An_Usage] (which the user ''removed''—why?), is egregious. From this and from my own observations just skimming their edit history, I don't know how this user never saw consequences.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:36, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****Looking back on that, I think that should have drawn a warning. Initially, I was mostly focused on trying to understand the meaning of that comment, and didn't consider that it was worded as harshly as it was. I understand your [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&diff=prev&oldid=256716 comment] on [[wikipedia:WP:AAGF|WP:AAGF]] better now. As for removing discussions on user pages, I still think [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&diff=256720&oldid=256716 my comment] on [[Wikipedia:WP:OWNTALK]] is relevant. That's why I'd prefer to keep the discussion on disruptive editing here, since removing parts of this discussion is not acceptable. Maintaining references to relevant discussions here is also helpful, so thank you for those. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******I'm glad the problem with the wording has been acknowledged, but there's something there (something important, I think) which you didn't address: Silverwing235's response on Loci's page (''a day before [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247296 they reinstated the idiosyncratic incorrect usage in question]'') says that Silverwing235 is not concerned with whether the original was correct and whether their revision was wrong. After being shown ''in detail'' that the original was correct, and that their revision was not, they referred to the original as
*****:<blockquote>some sort of highly, blatantly obvious spelling/grammar mistake, that honestly needed (or so I thought) no edit summary to [...] stay correct</blockquote>
*****:Even from my brief interaction with them, it's clear this point of view persists. And if it were merely a case of their ''not getting the point'' or simply not reading, I would actually find it easier to understand. But given the rest of their statement, I doubt that was the case ''then'', and I doubt that's the case ''now''; to wit,
*****:<blockquote>Yes, '''''its a mistake to me''''', hence the corrections in the first place [...]</blockquote><blockquote>How to proceed other than leaving it alone (as you seem to have insinuated with your "an usage" interjection on my talk page, unfortunately)? I mean, yeah, [spelling and grammar], '''''corrected thus''''': "[...] an ubiquitous feature"</blockquote>
*****:(Emphasis added by me.)
*****:This editor persists in imposing idiosyncratic (often incorrect) usage rules, and in discussion of their errors, continues to refer to the original versions as ''mistakes'', and their (incorrect or unwarranted) changes as ''corrections''.
*****:I.e., '''''[[wikipedia:WP:IDHT|I Didn't Hear That]]'''''.
******On first read, I, too, took time to parse the discussion there—formatting confusion aside, it was hard to understand without looking at ''all'' the diffs ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=prev&oldid=247208] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247209] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247248] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247251] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247280] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247287] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247296] [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247305]), noticing the summary in which Loci included a link to Silverwing235's talk.
*****:Which, actually, I think I must have tried to click before, but the thread of that conversation was difficult to follow. The only reason I was at Silverwing235's talk page to begin with was to find out if anyone had raised these issues with them before. Loci ''had'', but Silverwing235 appeared to have disregarded each instance in which Loci advised them that their edits were incorrect.
******Actually, when Loci pointed out that [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Disruptive_Editing repeated elective edits (especially resulting in the same ''incorrect'' idiosyncratic usages) would constitute disruptive editing]—
*****:<blockquote>Repeatedly modifying acceptable page layouts and punctuation to suit your personal taste is disruptive.</blockquote>
*****:—and you spot-checked some of the reverts involved, notice that Silverwing235's response actually blames Loci for even raising the issue:
*****:<blockquote>[...] what I was trying to do, and thought I had done, before 'Loci, Vandalfinder Mod' came along with their reverts (Not that I want anyone to take on that role with regards to me in particular, it's rather annoying [...]</blockquote>
******And then, in response to your fourth bullet point (re singular ''they'', <q>Since your changes have led to some disagreements, I'm going to ask you to avoid changing any existing content related to singular "they" (this applies to things that use it and things that don't).</q>), Silverwing235 seems to get the wrong message:
*****:<blockquote>3 & 4: Not much to say here, other than: thanks for the assist and I wholeheartedly agree with you about the '''''personal preference''''' thing?</blockquote>
*****:(Emphasis added.)
*****:And in fact, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256636 this behavior is ongoing in 2021], even though you explicitly asked the user to avoid it. I've only been back on the wiki for a few weeks. I haven't actually trawled Silverwing235's past contribs, which, given the number of issues I've noticed, ought to be surprising.
*****:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 16:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

*vandalism by {{User|Johnhankse}} on 40d:Rose gold, [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Rose_gold&oldid=234402] and [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Rose_gold&oldid=234401] [[User:MathFox|MathFox]] ([[User talk:MathFox|talk]]) 09:44, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
*advertising by user {{User|Click4Support}} on the page [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Page request]] --[[User:Edern76|Edern76]] ([[User talk:Edern76|talk]]) 10:54, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
*reverted edits from IP editor {{User|174.51.109.169}} selling e-cigs at [[Mist]]; "reviewed content and references" lol who does that [[User:Vasiln|Vasiln]] ([[User talk:Vasiln|talk]]) 06:48, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*godlysockpuppet here, never used a wiki but just reporting that the df2012 page on security design and df2012 page on Maul has been turned to a spam advertising page. Feel free to clean this up or something. //edit I undid the spam. Im the random IP address.
* Reporting {{user|Bancream}} for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Pressure&curid=11219&diff=189434&oldid=156802 this edit] on [[40d:Pressure]]. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
* Reporting {{user|Pingping111}} for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=185468 this revision] on [[Talk:Main Page]] (12 separate edits). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 17:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
* More IP spam from {{User|180.194.171.229}}: [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline:Succession_League&diff=prev&oldid=183274 here]. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 19:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
* IP Spam: [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline:Succession_League&curid=6982&diff=183202&oldid=180867 this edit] by {{User|180.194.169.157}} --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 16:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
: This report and the one following it both come from the 180.194.*.* block of IP addresses. Perhaps this should be looked into. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 16:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
*IP Spam http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion&curid=14457&diff=182911&oldid=180865 – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Old Ancient|Old Ancient]]

* <s>Not sure how to report this, but [[User:71.118.242.47|71.118.242.47]] [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline%3ASuccession_League_Games&action=historysubmit&diff=182554&oldid=73455 added over 50000 g's] on [[Bloodline:Succession League Games|this page]]. This doesn't seem like the type of spam we normally see, so I'm not sure if it's a bot, but I wouldn't exactly say it's useful information to have in an article. It also doesn't seem like an automated DOS-type attack, but it definitely isn't a normal edit so I thought I'd post it here. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 21:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)</s>
: Considering the lack of spam from this IP since, I don't see any reason to act on this incident now. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 20:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Annaferry]], a user who registered about 10 minutes ago and promptly [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:GhostDwemer&oldid=182179 posted spam on GhostDwemer's talk page]. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 02:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Wingramo]] for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=ASCII_Art_Reward&diff=prev&oldid=179328 this edit]. It supposedly links to the Bay12 Support page but links to downloadranking.com instead. --[[User:Chronotab|Chronotab]] 18:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
:Wingramo's [[Special:Contributions/Wingramo|contributions]], also include an edit on [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_RPG&diff=prev&oldid=179721 Dwarf Fortress RPG] and [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&action=historysubmit&diff=179417&oldid=177987 History of Dwarf Fortress], which I reverted. They seem to be from December, so I'm surprised they went unnoticed. Strangely, Wingramo hasn't made any edits since then. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}}) 19:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Alloy7memory]] for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Architecture&curid=1583&diff=181412&oldid=181411 this edit], which [[Special:Contributions/174.239.35.25|174.239.35.25]] reverted. It's not exactly "link spam", but the username looks similar to most spambots (although strangely it actually contains real words). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 18:06, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/180.194.171.159|180.194.171.159]] for an unrelated link to [http://fosamaxlawsuit12.altervista.org/ something about alcohol abuse] on both [[Bloodline:Succession_League]] and [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion]].
*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/80.218.59.174|80.218.59.174]] for an [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&curid=19125&diff=175408&oldid=174954 edit] made to this page itself. --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 01:51, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/112.202.121.89|112.202.121.89]] for its "contributions" of spam links. 21:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::Those "contributions" were from a year ago. Considering that there hasn't been any spam from that IP address since then, there's no point in banning it now. I removed the spam. -- [[User:HiEv|Hi]][[User talk:HiEv|Ev]] 20:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting new user [[User_talk:Puravida|Puravida]] for a spam link on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Puravida]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 18:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting new user [[User_talk:BLT111|BLT111]] for placing a link to an "adult tool site" on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:BLT111]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
**Already got that one - somehow, I didn't see the website link, but the rest of the page looked suspicious enough that I banned it anyways. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 16:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
***Yes, I edited the url out before posting here... Compliments with the reaction speed! --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:36, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
****In the future, '''don't do that''' - if a bot puts spam on its talk page, '''blank the entire page''' so it's clear that it needs to be deleted. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Reporting [[User talk:Celery‎|Celery]] for all of its "contributions" [[Special:Contributions/Celery|Celery]] [[Special:Contributions/71.75.99.199|71.75.99.199]] 02:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[Special:Contributions/63.248.241.226|63.248.241.226]] for this [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress:About&curid=2&diff=166777&oldid=144963 edit] --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 22:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[User talk:Casinostars‎|Casinostars]] for spam linking in [[Talk:Main Page]]. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Neystec1753|Neystec1753]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Neystec1753]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 11:00, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:Cry1313|Cry1313]] for edits [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&curid=5008&diff=159499&oldid=153841] and [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&curid=5008&diff=159500&oldid=159499] [[User:Calc|Calc]] 12:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[User talk:Neucent1742‎|Neucent1742]] for talk page spam, too. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Reporing [[User talk:Giome1861‎|Giome1861]] for talk page spam. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 13:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Suco1260|Suco1260]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Suco1260]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 19:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Detoxdietgirl‎|Detoxdietgirl‎]] for placing an advertorial on her(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Detoxdietgirl‎]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 12:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Exto1871|Exto1871]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Exto1871]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 18:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Rueti1215|Rueti1215]] for placing an advertorial on his user talk page [[User_talk:Rueti1215]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 14:23, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting user [[User_talk:Lethuphuong89|Lethuphuong89]] for two (already reverted) edits [[Special:Contributions/Lethuphuong89]] [[Special:Contributions/84.134.6.29|84.134.6.29]] 13:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting user [[User talk:Tari1388|Tari1388]] for (reverted) talk page spam. [[Special:Contributions/84.134.6.29|84.134.6.29]] 13:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting IP 167.128.19.234 for vandalizing [[Talk:Main Page]] [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=158314]
--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 17:12, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting IP 94.122.66.247 for inserting spam links into [[Talk:Main Page]] and [[Talk:Main Page/Quote]]
--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 13:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:DMundell|DMundell]] for a bunch of spammy links - see [[Yeti]], [[Badger]], etc. I've reverted the edits and removed the spam.
-- [[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 11:34, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Um, I don't actually have an account here, but I've just noticed a few things:

- Clicking on some page links results in downloading a .rar file, named with the name of the page you were trying to go to. There's a blank file inside. Also, the main page is encountering database error. It's like the entire site is having a stroke, so I assume some kind of DDOS-like attack is being carried out.
Reporting user [[User:DivinaLittlefield|DivinaLittlefield]] for a number of edits. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 20:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
:Concur, 3 more edits by [[User:DivinaLittlefield|DivinaLittlefield]] around 21:00 today. Invisible direct and redirection links to a site hawking weight control. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 21:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Reporting users [[User:Shushu|Shushu]], [[User:Liliyuan|Liliyuan]], [[User:Smalltrees|Smalltrees]], and [[User:Bingbingyuan|Bingbingyuan]] for user tallk page spam. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 09:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user Ameriplan - bunch of spammy stuff in User talk:Ameriplan
[[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 11:25, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User talk:Aiai00125|Aiai00125]] for [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion&curid=14457&diff=153375&oldid=153097 this edit to the Centralized discussion page]. The user's talk page also contains linkage spam. -- [[User:Khym Chanur|Khym Chanur]] 03:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
:Also on [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=23a:Creature_small_mammals.txt&curid=15135&diff=153376&oldid=102951 23a:Creature_small_mammals.txt]. Both vandalized pages are reverted.
:[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 11:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:AWurth93|AWurth93]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Consolidated_Development:_Arcs,_core-items,_bloats,_Reqs_and_Powergoals&curid=17308&diff=153356&oldid=149506]. Yep, there's at least one link in that mess. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:JBinkley89|JBinkley89]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Strange_mood] wait. I think this list is actually the same as Sgragg88's. -- [[User:RedHerring|Redherring]] 7:59 23/09/2011 GMT+2 (First time editing, sorry for the mess)
:I would suggest looking into users [[User:AWurth93|AWurth93]] and [[User:EKruse55|EKruse55]]. Their names follow the same pattern as Binkley and Gragg - if they are spam accounts then like those, they are probably to lie dormant for a few days before they start their spam.
:[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 12:40, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:SGragg88|SGragg88]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Water_wheel&diff=153193&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:String_dump&diff=153194&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Weapon_token&diff=153195&oldid=prev edit], and this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Creature_token&diff=153196&oldid=prev edit]. I'd be remiss to not include this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Lead&diff=153197&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Advanced_world_generation&diff=153198&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=23a:Weapon_token&diff=153199&oldid=prev edit], or this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Armor&diff=153200&oldid=prev edit]. And who could forget such classics as this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Strange_mood&diff=153201&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Armor_user&diff=153202&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Release_information&diff=153203&oldid=prev edit], and everbody's favorite: this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Caravans&diff=153204&oldid=prev edit]? But wait! There's more! This [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Strange_mood&diff=153205&oldid=152796 edit] free with purchase! --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 21:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[Special:Contributions/75.163.224.80|75.163.224.80]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Adventure_mode_quick_start&curid=18784&diff=152872&oldid=152303 edit] --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 04:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
:At Wikipedia we'd call that a "test edit" - most likely the first ever wiki edit by a young person who didn't quite believe they could change the internet. My bet is that there won't be any further disruption from that IP address, so no administrator action is required. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 14:56, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
:: I tend to agree here. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 07:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Pre-emptive, but I'm guessing the following are not genuine new-user registrations... 
(User creation log); 09:14 . . Download Love That Girl! - Season One 1080p movie New user account 
(User creation log); 08:44 . . Download 60 Minutes Australia - 2011 Full movie New user account 
[[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 10:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 
#Reporting IP Address 124.6.181.189 for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&oldid=152086 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 16:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting IP Address 124.6.181.183 for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&diff=prev&oldid=151941 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 19:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:Jose|Jose]] for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Nail&oldid=151747 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 18:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a link insertion at [[Talk:Main_Page/Quote/archive1]] by an anonymous IP. I undid it, not sure if other measures need to be taken.
[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 19:10, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

There was a vandalism at "http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Ruin". -- Dragongutz
:No there wasn't - the article history clearly indicates that the article has '''never''' had any content. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

reporting user [[User:Jalohear]] [[http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=135938 link]]
:Interestingly, that user (and 2 others) signed up over a week ago and sat dormant this entire time. The bastards are trying to get sneaky... --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
::I've seen vandalized main pages like that on the other wikis under attack. I'm not sure, but I think they start doing that only after they've "burrowed" into the site for an extended period of time. I believe the goal is to keep their spam links a part of the wiki for as long as possible. [[User:Uristocrat|Uristocrat]] 08:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
:::I suspect they were remaining dormant in order to get past the "new user" stage and gain the ability to edit semi-protected pages. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
::::I've modified new user stage so that you have to have made 10 edits before you can edit semiprotected articles or create new articles, in addition to the 3 day wait period. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 17:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::I'm glad. Sounds like that should help. Although, I just tried to create my user profile ([[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]]) and it gave me a '''Permission error''', it said "You do not have permission to create new pages." (I do not have 10 edits yet.) Perhaps you should make user profiles exempt from this rule? Also, I would recommend mentioning to new members about these requirements. Otherwise, it could mean a lot of confused new members at a lot of complaints. You would not have to be specific, however. You could just say that "several edits" are required before that privilege is granted. --[[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]] 23:01:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::I made your user profile page for you. An admin will have to do anything else. Also, I have confirmation now that the webspam team at Google is taking a look at this. They're interested because it's not just this wiki, there are thousands of others being vandalized by spammers and their real goal is to get their crap into the search engines. That probably won't stop the spambots from vandalizing things, but it will help keep them from profiting from this. [[User:Uristocrat|Uristocrat]] 08:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::I'll look into permissions today and see if I can get user page creation working for newly registered users. Also, you're probably right about needing a notice of some sort for this change. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 16:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Both [[User_talk:DaisyBarrett DaisyBarrett]] ([http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&diff=prev&oldid=151347 example]) and [[User_talk:SunshineMcfadden SunshineMcfadden]] ([http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Sand&diff=prev&oldid=151343 example]) have added link-spam marked as minor edits. Link spam is the only edits these two users have done. -- [[User:Khym Chanur|Khym Chanur]] 20:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
:Did you not notice that their edits were undone and '''I banned both of them 9 hours ago'''? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:15, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a single spam edit by 124.6.181.171, which I've reverted. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 07:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
:^Same story for DScheer82. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 10:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Consort

2021-02-22T07:48:25Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Fortress Mode */ Reworded to be more specific (making it clear that they don't simply materialize ("consorts can appear when...")).

{{Quality|Exceptional|06:09, 17 May 2015 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
{{Noble
| noble = Consort
| office= None
| quarters= None
| dining= None
| tomb= None
| arrival =
* Being married to a [[baron]], [[count]], [[duke]] or [[monarch]]
}}
A '''consort''' is a special type of [[noble]] who serves as the [[Marriage|spouse]] of a land-owning noble. They have no [[room]] requirements (though they will share their spouses' rooms and gain their benefits by proxy) and do not show up on the {{k|n}}obles screen.

Consorts can appear as spouses to [[baron]]s, [[count]]s, [[duke]]s or [[monarch]]s. They do not perform any meaningful function (other than interacting with their spouses and producing [[children]]), and make no [[mandate]]s or [[demand]]s. Consorts are not guaranteed to exist in a fortress, as the noble may just happen to not be married, but any future marriages will lead to their spouses automatically being elevated into consorts.

If a consort dies, then no new consort of the same type can be created until the original noble themselves [[marriage|remarries]] {{version|0.47.01}}. Forced [[social skill|socialization]] can be used to cause this. If the current noble dies, then the consort will also be replaced or removed based on the [[relationship|marital status]] of the heir that assumed the throne. In some cases, no heir, or an heir not present at the fortress, may exist to assume the throne - when this happens, the position of consort will simply cease to exist in your fortress. The exact mechanism of selecting an heir is not yet well known, so it is not feasible at the moment to select the consort by arranging [[unfortunate accident]]s for the noble.

The naming of consorts can be confusing; for example, the ''king consort'' is always the husband of the monarch and the ''queen consort'' is similarly always the wife of the monarch. Interestingly, the plural form of consorts are not as obvious as they seem, i.e. "king consorts", but rather "kings consort". This is because the "consort" serves as an attributive adjective and not a nominal portion of the noun phrase.

== Fortress Mode ==
In [[fortress mode]], when an eligible noble is elevated to a governing position, their current spouse, as [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/consort#Noun consort] to the holder of that position, is conferred a corresponding title. For example, if a married dwarf becomes a baron, that dwarf's spouse then becomes a ''baron consort'' (if male) or ''baroness consort'' (if female). Alternatively, consorts can accompany their spouses if they happen to [[Immigration|immigrate]] to your fortress, which may be the case when the monarch makes their arrival. This dwarf is always a historical figure, and so can possibly be a [[night creature]]. Through a mountainhome's evolution, the consort can change or disappear many times.

As historical figures, consorts are also eligible to arrive without their spouse. This may or may not be a bug {{version|0.34.07}}.

== Appearance ==
[[File:King-consort.PNG|thumb|200px|right|Consorts are sometimes displayed like a noble, and sometimes like a citizen. Note the lack of a purple name.]]

Consorts will be displayed in the {{k|u}}nits screen as having the job "Noble" in purple text, but they will not have the distinctive purple colour characteristic of all nobles. Instead, they appear as the colour of their highest profession in both the units screen and the display.

When the cursor on the units screen is placed over the consort's name, the foreground of the name becomes purple (similar to most nobles), but otherwise keeps the colour of their profession (similar to the [[militia commander]]). This suggests that the game may treat consorts sometimes as nobles and sometimes not. Whether this has any effect on noble-specific [[thought]]s is unknown.

Interestingly, consorts have exactly the same precedence as their spouses. This means that no other noble status will override the status as a consort, with the obvious impossible exception of also being the same type of noble. This has no effect on anything but the titles this unit receives and its display in various screens.

[[File:Endok-sarasti.jpg|thumb|center|300px|Artist rendering of a queen consort by Mechlin ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169691.msg7701761#msg7701761 post])]]

{{Nobles}}

Consort

2021-02-22T07:01:40Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Fortress Mode */ Replacing “an” with “a” does not address the problem here. Instead, replace “legible” with “eligible.”

{{Quality|Exceptional|06:09, 17 May 2015 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
{{Noble
| noble = Consort
| office= None
| quarters= None
| dining= None
| tomb= None
| arrival =
* Being married to a [[baron]], [[count]], [[duke]] or [[monarch]]
}}
A '''consort''' is a special type of [[noble]] who serves as the [[Marriage|spouse]] of a land-owning noble. They have no [[room]] requirements (though they will share their spouses' rooms and gain their benefits by proxy) and do not show up on the {{k|n}}obles screen.

Consorts can appear as spouses to [[baron]]s, [[count]]s, [[duke]]s or [[monarch]]s. They do not perform any meaningful function (other than interacting with their spouses and producing [[children]]), and make no [[mandate]]s or [[demand]]s. Consorts are not guaranteed to exist in a fortress, as the noble may just happen to not be married, but any future marriages will lead to their spouses automatically being elevated into consorts.

If a consort dies, then no new consort of the same type can be created until the original noble themselves [[marriage|remarries]] {{version|0.47.01}}. Forced [[social skill|socialization]] can be used to cause this. If the current noble dies, then the consort will also be replaced or removed based on the [[relationship|marital status]] of the heir that assumed the throne. In some cases, no heir, or an heir not present at the fortress, may exist to assume the throne - when this happens, the position of consort will simply cease to exist in your fortress. The exact mechanism of selecting an heir is not yet well known, so it is not feasible at the moment to select the consort by arranging [[unfortunate accident]]s for the noble.

The naming of consorts can be confusing; for example, the ''king consort'' is always the husband of the monarch and the ''queen consort'' is similarly always the wife of the monarch. Interestingly, the plural form of consorts are not as obvious as they seem, i.e. "king consorts", but rather "kings consort". This is because the "consort" serves as an attributive adjective and not a nominal portion of the noun phrase.

== Fortress Mode ==
In [[fortress mode]], consorts can appear when an eligible noble is elevated into a governing position (for example, a married dwarf becomes baron, and his wife in turn becomes a baroness consort). Alternatively, consorts can accompany their spouses if they happen to [[Immigration|immigrate]] to your fortress, which may be the case when the monarch makes their arrival. This dwarf is always a historical figure, and so can possibly be a [[night creature]]. Through a mountainhome's evolution, the consort can change or disappear many times.

As historical figures, consorts are also eligible to arrive without their spouse. This may or may not be a bug {{version|0.34.07}}.

== Appearance ==
[[File:King-consort.PNG|thumb|200px|right|Consorts are sometimes displayed like a noble, and sometimes like a citizen. Note the lack of a purple name.]]

Consorts will be displayed in the {{k|u}}nits screen as having the job "Noble" in purple text, but they will not have the distinctive purple colour characteristic of all nobles. Instead, they appear as the colour of their highest profession in both the units screen and the display.

When the cursor on the units screen is placed over the consort's name, the foreground of the name becomes purple (similar to most nobles), but otherwise keeps the colour of their profession (similar to the [[militia commander]]). This suggests that the game may treat consorts sometimes as nobles and sometimes not. Whether this has any effect on noble-specific [[thought]]s is unknown.

Interestingly, consorts have exactly the same precedence as their spouses. This means that no other noble status will override the status as a consort, with the obvious impossible exception of also being the same type of noble. This has no effect on anything but the titles this unit receives and its display in various screens.

[[File:Endok-sarasti.jpg|thumb|center|300px|Artist rendering of a queen consort by Mechlin ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169691.msg7701761#msg7701761 post])]]

{{Nobles}}

Block

2021-02-22T06:49:37Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Undo revision 256806 by Silverwing235 (talk). This edit introduced a number of errors in places where the original was *fine*.

{{Quality|Exceptional|04:05, 19 December 2016 (UTC)}}
{{av}}

:''For "blocking" in combat, see [[Armor]].''

[[File:stone_blocks_preview.jpg|thumb|230px|right|Not Minecraft related.]]A '''block''' is a type of building material that is more architecturally efficient than their non-processed counterparts. Blocks are lighter, faster building, and more valuable. This makes blocks especially useful for large construction projects.

[[Stone]], [[wood]], [[glass]], [[ceramic]], and [[metal]] blocks can be created respectively in a [[mason's workshop]], a [[carpenter's workshop]], a [[glass furnace]], a [[kiln]], and a [[forge]]. One stone boulder can be shaped into 4 rock blocks, which makes stone even more attractive to use for larger constructions. All other materials only produce 1 block/task, but a wood block is lighter than a log, and all blocks share the advantages in construction and value. Ceramic blocks are called "bricks", though they behave the same as all other blocks.

Blocks can be used as building materials for [[road]]s, [[bridge]]s, [[workshop]]s and [[construction]]s. When a raw material (e.g. stone boulder) is used instead, the game will describe the result as "rough", while buildings built from blocks are not given that adjective. Additionally, blocks are '''required''' to build [[well]]s, [[screw pump]]s, and [[ashery|asheries]].

Even though blocks are quite useful in terms of construction, they cannot replace other functions of the raw material. Stone blocks cannot be used for making furniture or craft goods, tools such as [[pot]]s or [[jug]]s, [[mechanism]]s, or [[catapult]] ammunition. Wooden blocks can't be used to make furniture, craft goods, tools, siege weapon components, ballista arrowheads, crossbow bolts, and can't be burned at a [[wood furnace]]. Metal blocks can't be used for [[metalsmith's forge]] jobs but '''can be melted down''' at a [[smelter]].

==Blocks vs. rocks==

The clearest distinction between a [[building]] built with a [[stone|boulder]] and a building built with a stone block is that more buildings can be built of blocks, as each stone produces four blocks. Note that this does not apply to [[wood]], [[glass]], or [[ceramic]] blocks/bricks, which are only made in sets of 1; [[metal]] blocks are made in sets of 1, but since you get 4 bars at a time from smelting ore, the end result is equivalent to stone.

Blocks have less volume and thus [[weight|weigh]] much less than raw forms of construction materials - stone blocks weigh only 6% as much as a boulder, and wooden blocks weigh 12% as much as the log from which they are carved. This weight difference can dramatically reduce hauling time, especially if you are using large amounts of materials. Forming metal bars into blocks makes no difference in regards to weight, though it does simplify the tracking of resources - if you use metal bars to build workshops and constructions, your [[stocks]] screen will still list them in the summary view, potentially misleading you into believing you have more available bars than you actually have.

Building a bridge out of blocks instead of rocks also '''cuts the building time by two thirds''', independent of clearing and hauling time. This difference in building time presumably extends to other buildings and constructions where you can choose between blocks and rocks. The appearance of [[bridge]]s and paved [[road]]s will be different depending on whether blocks or rocks are used. The use of blocks is indicated by the floor tile {{Tile|+|#FFF|#000}}, and the use of rocks is indicated by a rough ground tile {{Tile|≈|#FFF|#000}}.

Unlike raw stone or wood, up to 10 blocks can be stored in each [[bin]] in bar/block [[stockpile]]s. This also can improve hauling time between stockpiles. A [[minecart]] can carry up to 83 blocks.

Blocks are more valuable than rocks. Blocks have a [[Value#Items with material but without quality|base value]] of 5, compared to the raw material value of 3 for stone, wood or glass. Metal bars already have a base value of 5. This, combined with the yield of 4 blocks per stone nets a value increase of 17 when using basic stones for blocks.

Metal ores and economic stone will still produce multiple stone blocks if cut in a mason's workshop. However, this breaks use for any purpose other than building and [[strange mood]]s, such as [[reaction]]s: blocks of [[flux]] '''cannot''' be used for making [[pig iron]] or [[steel]], nor can blocks of [[ore]] be [[smelter|smelted]] into metal (without modding reactions). Note that "filler" blocks of [[raw adamantine]] are excellent for increasing [[artifact]] value without wasting too much adamantine on legendary doors, tables, etc.

{{Translation
| dwarven = kastar
| elvish = epuba
| goblin = zobo
| human = xugot
}}

{{Category|Materials}}
[[ru:Block]]

Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Administrative intervention against vandalism

2021-02-22T03:12:15Z

Sriefmadsakzro: replied

<div style="text-align:left;">
{| class="infobox plainlinks" id="" style="background-color: #eef5ff; border: 1px solid #0088CC; font-size: 90%; margin: 1em 0em 0em; padding: 2px; text-align: left; width: 100%; border-top-left-radius:8px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:8px; -webkit-border-top-left-radius:8px; border-bottom-right-radius:8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:8px; -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius:8px;"
! colspan="2" style="border: 1px solid #0088CC; font-weight:bold; background-color: #8ce; padding-left: 1em; padding-right: 1em; border-top-left-radius:4px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:4px; -webkit-border-top-left-radius:4px; border-bottom-right-radius:4px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:4px; -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius:4px;" |'''Instructions'''
|-
|
#Reported edits must constitute vandalism.
#Link to both an example of the user's vandalism (the revision, not the current page — you can use the "Permanent link") and the user's talk page (which is included with {{tl|User}}).
#Add new reports to the top of the list. Use format: <nowiki>#Reporting user {{User|Briess}} for edits [link], [link] and [link] ~~~~ </nowiki>
#Please remember to sign the report with <code>~~</code><code>~~</code>
#If a report has remained here for more than 24 hours and no action has been taken, please leave a message on an [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=sysop&limit=50 admin's] talk page.
|}
</div>
==Reports==

* Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/89.187.170.169|89.187.170.169]] for inserting spam into [[Utility:Dwarf_Therapist/Addons_Repository]].
* Reporting...vandalism-adjecent shenanigans from an anon, as expected {{user|dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/168.216.12.16}} Example:(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Intelligent_undead&oldid=255682) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
** Blocked - I think all edits have been reverted as well. (No need to mark reports as "minor" changes, by the way) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
* If I might be permitted to include a brief personal opinion here, this is an example of what happens when one has a perfect storm of a virus, its quarantine procedures, and protests, all together. So, reporting user {{user|BurnLootMurder}} for gibbering-insane [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Material&curid=31922&diff=252946&oldid=249363 '''trolling and vandalism''', which should really have a CW for implied violence and encouragement to doxxing on it, IMHO] The obvious solution being, to block and revert with due speed.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 09:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
** Done —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
*Reporting user {{user|DogfanDFNerd‎}} for repeatedly trying to change the [[:File:WikiLogo 4fa619.png|wiki logo]] with a low quality replacement. Something as important as the logo shouldn't be meddled with by non-admins, much less users without any edits, and the fact they can't be bothered to fix the glaring spelling mistake by the third time suspends my belief that this is being done in good faith. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 13:59, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
** Sorry for the delay - I've protected the page. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
*Reporting user {{User|Silverwing235}} for a long-standing pattern of problematic editing. As an example, after the first 3 times Silverwing235 [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247287&oldid=247280 added this error], I [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&curid=36342&diff=247295&oldid=241756 explained the problem] on Silverwing235's talk page. Silverwing235 [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=next&oldid=247295 removed that explanation] with the comment "message received and understood", then less than a day later [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247303&oldid=247296 made the same edit a fourth time]. Silverwing235 started making many problematic edits in July 2018, received a [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=238883&oldid=238709 warning in January 2019], and has continued unabated since; just this weekend I wasted more than two hours reviewing and reverting this user's edits. Sadly, it appears nothing short of a block will stop the problematic editing.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
** Thank you for dealing with this. As I haven't been very active on the wiki recently, I don't want to take any administrative action on this alone, particularly since some of Silverwing235's edits that I've seen have been constructive (and I don't personally have a good sense of how many have been disruptive). Edit warring isn't good, though - if you've seen more instances of that, or a large number of disruptive edits recently, let me know. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
***The last time you [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=238890&oldid=238883 suggested doing nothing] (nine months ago) it didn't work; I see no reason to assume the results will be different this time around. Since January, Silverwing235 has made 1779 edits, and I have made more than 265 reversions. You might then assume that means that 85% of Silverwing235's edits were "constructive", but the number is considerably lower; Silverwing235 tends to "serial-edit" the same article multiple times in a row and I revert to the last-good version with a single edit. In fact, Silverwing235 has the "current" edit on only 487 of those pages in that time frame, which charitably estimates the "constructive" edit rate somewhere around 50%. Anyway, this prolonged situation has sapped my desire to work on the wiki, so you'll need to find someone else to proofread Silverwing235's edits.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
****I don't think doing nothing is the solution, but I think some of these edits are pretty subjective. Of the edits you reverted today, I agree with [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Meat_industry&diff=prev&oldid=247436] (although the section is admittedly inconsistent with its other 7 sibling sections), and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Equipment&diff=prev&oldid=247438] (although this is pretty minor, the "each" shouldn't have been removed). I think [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=247437&oldid=247435] was unclear both ways (only the first and third action led to the consequence in the same sentence, which I tried to address [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=next&oldid=247437 here]). As for [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Armor&diff=prev&oldid=247439], you reverted several reasonable changes besides the singular "they"-related change. (I probably would have done the same after dealing with a number of earlier edits, to be fair.) I don't think "he" or "it" can apply to "dwarf or other creature" in every case, but regardless of that, singular "they" is controversial, as you have mentioned. Neither [[DF:MOS|this wiki]] nor [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia] seem to take a strong stance on the matter, so in my book, it's a personal preference - it's not right or wrong. I am unwilling to take administrative action over it, and I don't want to see edit wars over it either (i.e. going forward, I will side in favor of whatever choice was made in the article before it was changed). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:59, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
**I hate to add to this old thread, but, as it has been raised before, it seems appropriate. As Loci said in 2019, this '''is''' a long-standing pattern, and this user makes a large number of edits every month. One example: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256610&oldid=256609], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256621&oldid=256620], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256644&oldid=256643]. I was an active editor on the wiki some years ago—not that it matters—and since I rejoined, this kind of editing showing up in the recent changes has been a huge distraction from any other editing I mean to do. I know this ''isn't'' Wikipedia, but this kind of editing—literally declaiming “stylistic [sic] sense be damned” in edit summaries (which are always marked '''m'''—why?)—is the reason why Wikipedia has policies like [[wikipedia:WP:CIR|WP:CIR]], [[wikipedia:WP:DE|WP:DE]], [[wikipedia:WP:DDE|WP:DDE]], and especially [[wikipedia:WP:IDHT|WP:IDHT]]. It's hard to consider any wiki editing ''productive'' when there is no constraint on this behavior. The large number of similar edits (often "serial" edits, as Loci mentioned) performed by this single editor means that anything another editor adds will probably be similarly “fixed” within a few months. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 21:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
***I’d like to add my own third-person (second-person?) perspective on this. One of being a non-native English writer prone to making the kind of mistakes SilverWing fixes. Thanks to that, I (and others) don’t have to worry as much about perfecting the language while adding information, which makes adding. Conversely, I believe the strict rules of Wikipedia makes it harder for new editors to join. For Wikipedia, this may be a positive as it increases the quality, but this wiki is one starved for editors and can thus not afford such luxuries. It is true that SilverWing has a pattern of editing recently edited articles, which may bury those recent edits. As to why, my suspicion (backed up by what I remember them writing about it on the forum) is that they read the edit to check for errors/bad grammar, and then skim through the rest of the article while they are at it. The ’m’ is to mark that they didn’t add any info, only refactor what was already available. That way other wiki editors can chose to ignore those edits. (I believe that is the intended usage of the ’m’inor edit mark, am I wrong?) I’ve not seen them ”fix”/revert anything but changes to the syntax. They are obviously stubborn when it comes to that, perhaps in excess, but it should not disturb you when adding content. I believe that worry is unfounded. Ultimately, while grammar is subjective means not all of SilverWing’s edits are clearly productive, but I’d still argue that having someone like them adds a certain polish to the wiki we would otherwise miss out on. —[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 01:05, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****To the contrary: Silverwing235 often '''introduces''' errors in both grammar and syntax. That is actually the point of this thread.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:21, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****The problem I have with that assessment is that, from the (admittedly not thorough) looks I've had at Silverwing235's edit history, a lot of edits ''have'' been productive. Some have fixed mistakes that other editors have introduced, like Voliol described, which has a positive impact on the wiki. As for how to deal with the edits that introduce errors, see my comment below. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******I didn't say they ''always'' introduce errors, but they ''often'' do. On Wikipedia, this was once a fairly common problem, but a variety of policies have reduced both its occurrence and its impact. WP editors who consistently try to make “corrections” to a narrow set of linguistic features, ''often'' committing certain kinds of error—for example, “correcting” occurrences of “or” so that it is almost always preceded by a comma—are considered disruptive, ''even if many of their edits are productive''. And while this wiki isn't Wikipedia, and has its own specific needs, etc., the problem is probably about the same (though it might ultimately be worse for this wiki, since the number of editors active on a given day is a tiny fraction). '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 19:30, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
*** Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256644]. A comma might have been a better choice than a semicolon, but ''no'' punctuation there makes the sentence more difficult to parse. This is a situation where I would encourage a talk page or user page discussion as appropriate. I do think your [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256645 most recent edit] was a good compromise, though. [Edit: maybe the comma should have gone after "visitor" instead, but that's beside the point - this was a good-faith attempt to make the article more readable, and it should have been responded to with an improvement, not a reversion.] More generally, I don't want to block individual users for making edits like this. I have been keeping an eye on [[Special:RecentChanges]], and I think most of Silverwing235's changes in recent months have been uncontroversial compared to the ones that Loci originally report here. I ''am'' willing to temporarily lock pages in the cases of arguments being made in edit summaries, such as the one you and Silverwing participated in here, if necessary. I think I agree with Voliol for the most part, and invoking [[wikipedia:WP:CIR]] doesn't seem appropriate to me. Some edit summaries don't make sense, but I think that minor changes are generally tagged appropriately, and you can filter them out from [[Special:RecentChanges]] if you like. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:50, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****Re [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256644]: that's why '''I''' finally edited it myself. Silverwing235's edit ''introduced errors'' rather than ''fix'' it. To be honest, I don't have time to clarify the rest of this. See my edit history since I rejoined just a few weeks ago. It's enough for me to see that a long-time editor like Loci actually appears to have abandoned the wiki over similar problems—I, myself, am probably out as well. There just isn't time. I wanted to add to articles relevant to modding, now that DF has undergone several updates (and much of the information about the raws here appears to be outdated or “partially correct” since then). That no one has addressed Silverwing235's behavior is surprising. I have huge respect for you, otherwise, Lethosor, but I think you've got the wrong impression here. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:16, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****I think there was an attempt to fix the run-on sentence there originally, and I would typically tend to agree with [[Wikipedia:WP:NOTPERFECT]]. That is, I think that since there was an attempt to improve the article, other editors should prefer to continue to improve the article, or figure out some mutually-agreeable solution, rather than simply reverting changes. However,
******in this case, I see why [[Wikipedia:WP:IDHT]] could apply, given that the error was reverted multiple times (I think this is more oriented towards lengthy discussions, not edit warring, but it could be applied to the latter too).
******I understand that attempting to improve erroneous edits is more time-consuming than simply reverting them. I often don't have time to screen everything myself.
******I appreciate your concern for the wiki, and I don't want to drive editors away. We need the kind of content that you want to add, just as much as we need the types of fixes Silverwing235 is attempting to make. I would like to find some solution that can allow everyone to contribute.
******If Silverwing235 is making ''a lot'' of erroneous edits, to the point where the quality of the wiki is negatively impacted, then I agree that something should be done.
*****Here is my proposal - over the next couple weeks, I will look over as many of Silverwing235's edits as I can, focusing on more recent ones. I will note any that I consider productive ''or'' counterproductive, although I may not be able to address all of the latter. You're welcome to flag any that you think I should consider, although you're under no obligation to. If I notice a significant number of counterproductive edits, I will send them over to Silverwing235 (and link them here). After that, if similar edits continue, I think that would warrant more warnings and/or administrative action (again, I would greatly prefer not to take severe steps like an immediate block). What do you think of this? If there are ways that Wikipedia handles situations like this, I'd be open to hearing about them too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******Before I say anything else, I want to briefly address a question sort of implicit in the phrasing of your first point. I really don't think you intended to raise it, but a random reader skipping to this part of the thread might not realize that. ''Do I object to anyone's trying to improve the wiki?'' Of course not. I don't know whether I've written anything that might give someone that impression, but I hope this explicit statement is enough to quell any doubts. Editors should try to improve the wiki, and editors ''will'' make mistakes in the process. That is not the subject of this discussion.
******Regarding [[wikipedia:WP:NOTPERFECT|NOTPERFECT]]: I'm not sure if this is cited much outside the context of articles, often new or simply low-activity, which have ''existing'' issues, where either the article has been nominated for deletion or doubts about its suitability have been raised in talk or somewhere else. It's especially used as a defense against deletionists and exclusionists (though [https://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/08/wikipedia-muds-and-where-the-sources-are/ historically], that has rarely prevented a controversial [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_process#No_quorum deletion], particularly when [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability#General_notability_guideline it was inevitable]).
*****:It's also applicable when one or more editors have made ''substantial'' additions to an article, where the editors' spelling, grammar, organization, formatting etc. are not quite right (insufficient or poor sourcing usually triggers another set of considerations, but I would include it here as well, as long as the content isn't controversial or BLP etc.). But I don't think I've ever witnessed such an instance where anyone actually needed to ''cite'' this policy in a discussion that followed. (Not that I think I'm wrong about its applicability in those cases, just that they seem to “handle themselves” by virtue of other editors' assessment of the content. I think there are a few reasons for that, including the relative breadth and number of Wikipedia articles; the number of active editors, administrators, bureaucrats, etc.; and the imponderable volume of views and edits each day.)
******To me, this case—a single editor repeatedly introducing ''new'' issues to articles which (while themselves NOTPERFECT) did not already have such issues, usually in the process of making miscellaneous other '''m'''inor edits that ''do not'' substantially contribute to the content—is not an instance of either of those scenarios. An editor who ''knows'' that a minor correction needs to be made ''should make that correction''; but when in doubt (such as when an editor's judgment of a particular kind of correction has repeatedly led them astray), ''unless something substantial is being added, it's not necessarily productive to make a guess.'' For example, Silverwing235 has ''usually'' been correct in their adjustment of capitalization and plural formation intra-wiki links. But with respect to several other categories of edit (mostly also copy-, but not always—e.g., [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256767&oldid=256750]) which Silverwing235 gravitates to, they continue to make certain adjustments which they have been repeatedly corrected on (and in some cases advised not to make ''at all'', in order to avoid further issue).
*****:This is particularly troubling where it relates to similar edits which suggest the editor is imposing idiosyncratic usage (nonstandard punctuation, grammar, diction, etc., or a preference for one x over another where the extant form is equivalent or better) even after being informed of the mistake and asked to avoid repeating it. As (I think) Loci suggested somewhere, on Wikipedia this ''really is'' considered disruptive editing.
******About your proposal: before I read your most recent posts to this discussion, I actually started to write a note about a series of troubling edits from ''just the last two days'' that relate to the subject of this thread as well as [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&oldid=256734#Further_comment the User_talk spillover which began with Silverwing235's own comments on their own talk page]. If you don't mind, I'd like to take more time to read and respond to the entirety of what you wrote here (after “Here is my proposal”). But since I was going to post this note here anyway—again, only because from my point of view, this is part of a ''pattern'' of ''ongoing behavior'' which has already impacted the wiki, ''not'' because I think every problem edit deserves to be highlighted on this board (which I don't)—it might as well be part of the reply.
******Examples from just one article over two days:
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256370&oldid=256369] unnecessary revision, introduces erroneous punctuation; buried in history due to string of “serial edits”
******#: Relevant prior diffs include: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Die&diff=prev&oldid=256547], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Troubleshooting&diff=prev&oldid=256503] (not an exhaustive list).
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256767&oldid=256750] totally elective revision, also erroneous
******#: Edit summary suggests indifference to whether their basis is even true. Again, I think '''it's reasonable to expect the editor to''' be able to '''articulate a rationale''' for their edits. In Silverwing235's case, actually, it would help them to avoid this kind of problem altogether (and probably improve the quality of their editing) if they actually tried to do so ''before making each edit''. Rather than immediately revising something that they don't like the look of, they could first ask themselves some simple questions about what they're about to change; the answers to those questions would be used to write an actual edit summary (which, although they've been asked to write more thorough summaries, they didn't quite do in this case).
******#: Note: I followed up on this revert with a [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Bourgeoisie detailed response], which I only felt necessary because of this editor's ''persistence'' in making superficial changes that needlessly eliminate or render incorrect other editors' contributions. I would not ordinarily feel this was worth saying, but the general point has been made—and made forcefully—several times in the past. Why should an editor make changes when they can't articulate the reasons for those changes? Editors may be guided by instinct, but their revisions are supposed to be supported by more than their personal feeling about how something looks or sounds. Again, it's not that I think ''you'' don't know this; I'm simply trying to explain my tone.
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256797&oldid=256791] ''a day later'', same article, another unnecessary revision focusing on the same paragraph which was reverted the day before
******#: Uses a semicolon to combine an introductory sentence with the first of the following ''sequence'' of sentences which describe elements of the subject.
******#: I saw that you sifted this one and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256791&oldid=256767 partially restored] the prior version. I think at this point, the editor should have stopped trying to edit the superficial structure of the same paragraph. There are other articles to work on. Otherwise, sequences of similar edits and reverts can be construed (from the history) as a fixated attempt to circumvent consensus (re changes which were proscribed earlier).
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256798&oldid=256797] '''next''' ''day'', same article; unnecessary rewording introduces idiosyncratic commas
******#[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=256799&oldid=256798] ''minutes later'' (“serial edit”) to same article; ''another'' revision to the paragraph “Outside of the keep...”
******#: Another instance in which this editor asserts that the original author made a mistake (“butterfingered”) where there really wasn't one.
******#: Instead, this revision introduces an erroneous semicolon in a ''new'' place.
******#: Again, from the diffs and history, this (as the latest of a sequence of related edits) begins to “look” like a fixation with inserting a semicolon ''somewhere''. The paragraph didn't ''need'' any structural changes, nor did its tone or diction need to be rethought. Yet, after attempting to do all of these things, facing a revert each time, the editor ''persisted'' (introducing further errors where, initially, there were none).
******: At no stage in this process did the editor produce any rationale for the later changes they made to the very same sentences they'd targeted earlier—not even after being reverted several times.
******: Worse than that, many of these errors are of the same general kind as have previously been brought to the editor's attention (insertion of extraneous commas and semicolons; insertion of hyphens and clusters of other characters to produce punctuation nonconformal with English usage (usually in sentences that were already syntactically correct); incorrect or unnecessary merging of sentences or paragraphs; incorrect or unnecessary word substitution).
******: I genuinely would rather not be in the position of suggesting that an editor is doing something wrong that requires admin attention (whatever form that might take). I have no ill will toward the editor in question, but the process—including issuing advice which ''has already been given before'' (which is frequently already covered by MOS, besides), only to see that advice disregarded almost immediately (occasionally accompanied by comments with overt disregard for CIVIL, as I mentioned on your talk page), requiring ''further note-taking'' and ''further discussion on this board''—has become tedious.
******: I'll think about what you wrote in your proposal and write another (hopefully shorter) reply, if I think I have a useful suggestion. Obviously WP has advantages in this area which would be unrealistic or impractical for the wiki's purposes, but I don't think that's really an issue. It's not a matter of life or death, here, either; so, although I mean this commentary sincerely, I have no dear expectations about the outcome. (I do ''hope'' that the editor will take specific steps to learn to change their editing process, but as new editors come and go, the issue is bound to come around again, as it does on WP as well.) I'll try to continue participating constructively, though.
******:'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 03:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
***I've encouraged Silverwing to leave better edit summaries, and to move discussions to talk pages if needed. Hopefully this helps encourage more productive changes like [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256645]. I do still want to be informed if you notice a persistent pattern of issues, but this looks to me like a single argument that stands out from a more recent pattern of mostly-helpful edits. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****I think this is the last thing I care to say about it: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Loci#Discussion_in.2C_supposedly.2C_proper_context...], as a response to [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&oldid=247295#An_Usage] (which the user ''removed''—why?), is egregious. From this and from my own observations just skimming their edit history, I don't know how this user never saw consequences.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:36, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****Looking back on that, I think that should have drawn a warning. Initially, I was mostly focused on trying to understand the meaning of that comment, and didn't consider that it was worded as harshly as it was. I understand your [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&diff=prev&oldid=256716 comment] on [[wikipedia:WP:AAGF|WP:AAGF]] better now. As for removing discussions on user pages, I still think [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&diff=256720&oldid=256716 my comment] on [[Wikipedia:WP:OWNTALK]] is relevant. That's why I'd prefer to keep the discussion on disruptive editing here, since removing parts of this discussion is not acceptable. Maintaining references to relevant discussions here is also helpful, so thank you for those. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

*vandalism by {{User|Johnhankse}} on 40d:Rose gold, [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Rose_gold&oldid=234402] and [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Rose_gold&oldid=234401] [[User:MathFox|MathFox]] ([[User talk:MathFox|talk]]) 09:44, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
*advertising by user {{User|Click4Support}} on the page [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Page request]] --[[User:Edern76|Edern76]] ([[User talk:Edern76|talk]]) 10:54, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
*reverted edits from IP editor {{User|174.51.109.169}} selling e-cigs at [[Mist]]; "reviewed content and references" lol who does that [[User:Vasiln|Vasiln]] ([[User talk:Vasiln|talk]]) 06:48, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*godlysockpuppet here, never used a wiki but just reporting that the df2012 page on security design and df2012 page on Maul has been turned to a spam advertising page. Feel free to clean this up or something. //edit I undid the spam. Im the random IP address.
* Reporting {{user|Bancream}} for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Pressure&curid=11219&diff=189434&oldid=156802 this edit] on [[40d:Pressure]]. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
* Reporting {{user|Pingping111}} for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=185468 this revision] on [[Talk:Main Page]] (12 separate edits). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 17:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
* More IP spam from {{User|180.194.171.229}}: [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline:Succession_League&diff=prev&oldid=183274 here]. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 19:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
* IP Spam: [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline:Succession_League&curid=6982&diff=183202&oldid=180867 this edit] by {{User|180.194.169.157}} --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 16:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
: This report and the one following it both come from the 180.194.*.* block of IP addresses. Perhaps this should be looked into. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 16:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
*IP Spam http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion&curid=14457&diff=182911&oldid=180865 – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Old Ancient|Old Ancient]]

* <s>Not sure how to report this, but [[User:71.118.242.47|71.118.242.47]] [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline%3ASuccession_League_Games&action=historysubmit&diff=182554&oldid=73455 added over 50000 g's] on [[Bloodline:Succession League Games|this page]]. This doesn't seem like the type of spam we normally see, so I'm not sure if it's a bot, but I wouldn't exactly say it's useful information to have in an article. It also doesn't seem like an automated DOS-type attack, but it definitely isn't a normal edit so I thought I'd post it here. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 21:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)</s>
: Considering the lack of spam from this IP since, I don't see any reason to act on this incident now. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 20:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Annaferry]], a user who registered about 10 minutes ago and promptly [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:GhostDwemer&oldid=182179 posted spam on GhostDwemer's talk page]. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 02:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Wingramo]] for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=ASCII_Art_Reward&diff=prev&oldid=179328 this edit]. It supposedly links to the Bay12 Support page but links to downloadranking.com instead. --[[User:Chronotab|Chronotab]] 18:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
:Wingramo's [[Special:Contributions/Wingramo|contributions]], also include an edit on [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_RPG&diff=prev&oldid=179721 Dwarf Fortress RPG] and [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&action=historysubmit&diff=179417&oldid=177987 History of Dwarf Fortress], which I reverted. They seem to be from December, so I'm surprised they went unnoticed. Strangely, Wingramo hasn't made any edits since then. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}}) 19:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Alloy7memory]] for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Architecture&curid=1583&diff=181412&oldid=181411 this edit], which [[Special:Contributions/174.239.35.25|174.239.35.25]] reverted. It's not exactly "link spam", but the username looks similar to most spambots (although strangely it actually contains real words). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 18:06, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/180.194.171.159|180.194.171.159]] for an unrelated link to [http://fosamaxlawsuit12.altervista.org/ something about alcohol abuse] on both [[Bloodline:Succession_League]] and [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion]].
*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/80.218.59.174|80.218.59.174]] for an [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&curid=19125&diff=175408&oldid=174954 edit] made to this page itself. --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 01:51, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/112.202.121.89|112.202.121.89]] for its "contributions" of spam links. 21:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::Those "contributions" were from a year ago. Considering that there hasn't been any spam from that IP address since then, there's no point in banning it now. I removed the spam. -- [[User:HiEv|Hi]][[User talk:HiEv|Ev]] 20:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting new user [[User_talk:Puravida|Puravida]] for a spam link on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Puravida]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 18:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting new user [[User_talk:BLT111|BLT111]] for placing a link to an "adult tool site" on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:BLT111]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
**Already got that one - somehow, I didn't see the website link, but the rest of the page looked suspicious enough that I banned it anyways. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 16:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
***Yes, I edited the url out before posting here... Compliments with the reaction speed! --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:36, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
****In the future, '''don't do that''' - if a bot puts spam on its talk page, '''blank the entire page''' so it's clear that it needs to be deleted. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Reporting [[User talk:Celery‎|Celery]] for all of its "contributions" [[Special:Contributions/Celery|Celery]] [[Special:Contributions/71.75.99.199|71.75.99.199]] 02:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[Special:Contributions/63.248.241.226|63.248.241.226]] for this [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress:About&curid=2&diff=166777&oldid=144963 edit] --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 22:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[User talk:Casinostars‎|Casinostars]] for spam linking in [[Talk:Main Page]]. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Neystec1753|Neystec1753]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Neystec1753]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 11:00, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:Cry1313|Cry1313]] for edits [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&curid=5008&diff=159499&oldid=153841] and [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&curid=5008&diff=159500&oldid=159499] [[User:Calc|Calc]] 12:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[User talk:Neucent1742‎|Neucent1742]] for talk page spam, too. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Reporing [[User talk:Giome1861‎|Giome1861]] for talk page spam. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 13:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Suco1260|Suco1260]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Suco1260]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 19:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Detoxdietgirl‎|Detoxdietgirl‎]] for placing an advertorial on her(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Detoxdietgirl‎]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 12:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Exto1871|Exto1871]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Exto1871]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 18:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Rueti1215|Rueti1215]] for placing an advertorial on his user talk page [[User_talk:Rueti1215]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 14:23, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting user [[User_talk:Lethuphuong89|Lethuphuong89]] for two (already reverted) edits [[Special:Contributions/Lethuphuong89]] [[Special:Contributions/84.134.6.29|84.134.6.29]] 13:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting user [[User talk:Tari1388|Tari1388]] for (reverted) talk page spam. [[Special:Contributions/84.134.6.29|84.134.6.29]] 13:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting IP 167.128.19.234 for vandalizing [[Talk:Main Page]] [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=158314]
--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 17:12, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting IP 94.122.66.247 for inserting spam links into [[Talk:Main Page]] and [[Talk:Main Page/Quote]]
--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 13:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:DMundell|DMundell]] for a bunch of spammy links - see [[Yeti]], [[Badger]], etc. I've reverted the edits and removed the spam.
-- [[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 11:34, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Um, I don't actually have an account here, but I've just noticed a few things:

- Clicking on some page links results in downloading a .rar file, named with the name of the page you were trying to go to. There's a blank file inside. Also, the main page is encountering database error. It's like the entire site is having a stroke, so I assume some kind of DDOS-like attack is being carried out.
Reporting user [[User:DivinaLittlefield|DivinaLittlefield]] for a number of edits. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 20:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
:Concur, 3 more edits by [[User:DivinaLittlefield|DivinaLittlefield]] around 21:00 today. Invisible direct and redirection links to a site hawking weight control. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 21:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Reporting users [[User:Shushu|Shushu]], [[User:Liliyuan|Liliyuan]], [[User:Smalltrees|Smalltrees]], and [[User:Bingbingyuan|Bingbingyuan]] for user tallk page spam. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 09:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user Ameriplan - bunch of spammy stuff in User talk:Ameriplan
[[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 11:25, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User talk:Aiai00125|Aiai00125]] for [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion&curid=14457&diff=153375&oldid=153097 this edit to the Centralized discussion page]. The user's talk page also contains linkage spam. -- [[User:Khym Chanur|Khym Chanur]] 03:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
:Also on [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=23a:Creature_small_mammals.txt&curid=15135&diff=153376&oldid=102951 23a:Creature_small_mammals.txt]. Both vandalized pages are reverted.
:[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 11:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:AWurth93|AWurth93]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Consolidated_Development:_Arcs,_core-items,_bloats,_Reqs_and_Powergoals&curid=17308&diff=153356&oldid=149506]. Yep, there's at least one link in that mess. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:JBinkley89|JBinkley89]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Strange_mood] wait. I think this list is actually the same as Sgragg88's. -- [[User:RedHerring|Redherring]] 7:59 23/09/2011 GMT+2 (First time editing, sorry for the mess)
:I would suggest looking into users [[User:AWurth93|AWurth93]] and [[User:EKruse55|EKruse55]]. Their names follow the same pattern as Binkley and Gragg - if they are spam accounts then like those, they are probably to lie dormant for a few days before they start their spam.
:[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 12:40, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:SGragg88|SGragg88]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Water_wheel&diff=153193&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:String_dump&diff=153194&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Weapon_token&diff=153195&oldid=prev edit], and this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Creature_token&diff=153196&oldid=prev edit]. I'd be remiss to not include this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Lead&diff=153197&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Advanced_world_generation&diff=153198&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=23a:Weapon_token&diff=153199&oldid=prev edit], or this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Armor&diff=153200&oldid=prev edit]. And who could forget such classics as this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Strange_mood&diff=153201&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Armor_user&diff=153202&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Release_information&diff=153203&oldid=prev edit], and everbody's favorite: this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Caravans&diff=153204&oldid=prev edit]? But wait! There's more! This [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Strange_mood&diff=153205&oldid=152796 edit] free with purchase! --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 21:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[Special:Contributions/75.163.224.80|75.163.224.80]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Adventure_mode_quick_start&curid=18784&diff=152872&oldid=152303 edit] --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 04:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
:At Wikipedia we'd call that a "test edit" - most likely the first ever wiki edit by a young person who didn't quite believe they could change the internet. My bet is that there won't be any further disruption from that IP address, so no administrator action is required. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 14:56, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
:: I tend to agree here. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 07:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Pre-emptive, but I'm guessing the following are not genuine new-user registrations... 
(User creation log); 09:14 . . Download Love That Girl! - Season One 1080p movie New user account 
(User creation log); 08:44 . . Download 60 Minutes Australia - 2011 Full movie New user account 
[[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 10:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 
#Reporting IP Address 124.6.181.189 for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&oldid=152086 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 16:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting IP Address 124.6.181.183 for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&diff=prev&oldid=151941 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 19:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:Jose|Jose]] for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Nail&oldid=151747 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 18:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a link insertion at [[Talk:Main_Page/Quote/archive1]] by an anonymous IP. I undid it, not sure if other measures need to be taken.
[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 19:10, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

There was a vandalism at "http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Ruin". -- Dragongutz
:No there wasn't - the article history clearly indicates that the article has '''never''' had any content. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

reporting user [[User:Jalohear]] [[http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=135938 link]]
:Interestingly, that user (and 2 others) signed up over a week ago and sat dormant this entire time. The bastards are trying to get sneaky... --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
::I've seen vandalized main pages like that on the other wikis under attack. I'm not sure, but I think they start doing that only after they've "burrowed" into the site for an extended period of time. I believe the goal is to keep their spam links a part of the wiki for as long as possible. [[User:Uristocrat|Uristocrat]] 08:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
:::I suspect they were remaining dormant in order to get past the "new user" stage and gain the ability to edit semi-protected pages. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
::::I've modified new user stage so that you have to have made 10 edits before you can edit semiprotected articles or create new articles, in addition to the 3 day wait period. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 17:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::I'm glad. Sounds like that should help. Although, I just tried to create my user profile ([[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]]) and it gave me a '''Permission error''', it said "You do not have permission to create new pages." (I do not have 10 edits yet.) Perhaps you should make user profiles exempt from this rule? Also, I would recommend mentioning to new members about these requirements. Otherwise, it could mean a lot of confused new members at a lot of complaints. You would not have to be specific, however. You could just say that "several edits" are required before that privilege is granted. --[[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]] 23:01:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::I made your user profile page for you. An admin will have to do anything else. Also, I have confirmation now that the webspam team at Google is taking a look at this. They're interested because it's not just this wiki, there are thousands of others being vandalized by spammers and their real goal is to get their crap into the search engines. That probably won't stop the spambots from vandalizing things, but it will help keep them from profiting from this. [[User:Uristocrat|Uristocrat]] 08:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::I'll look into permissions today and see if I can get user page creation working for newly registered users. Also, you're probably right about needing a notice of some sort for this change. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 16:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Both [[User_talk:DaisyBarrett DaisyBarrett]] ([http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&diff=prev&oldid=151347 example]) and [[User_talk:SunshineMcfadden SunshineMcfadden]] ([http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Sand&diff=prev&oldid=151343 example]) have added link-spam marked as minor edits. Link spam is the only edits these two users have done. -- [[User:Khym Chanur|Khym Chanur]] 20:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
:Did you not notice that their edits were undone and '''I banned both of them 9 hours ago'''? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:15, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a single spam edit by 124.6.181.171, which I've reverted. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 07:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
:^Same story for DScheer82. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 10:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Administrative intervention against vandalism

2021-02-21T19:30:29Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Reports */ replied

<div style="text-align:left;">
{| class="infobox plainlinks" id="" style="background-color: #eef5ff; border: 1px solid #0088CC; font-size: 90%; margin: 1em 0em 0em; padding: 2px; text-align: left; width: 100%; border-top-left-radius:8px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:8px; -webkit-border-top-left-radius:8px; border-bottom-right-radius:8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:8px; -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius:8px;"
! colspan="2" style="border: 1px solid #0088CC; font-weight:bold; background-color: #8ce; padding-left: 1em; padding-right: 1em; border-top-left-radius:4px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:4px; -webkit-border-top-left-radius:4px; border-bottom-right-radius:4px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:4px; -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius:4px;" |'''Instructions'''
|-
|
#Reported edits must constitute vandalism.
#Link to both an example of the user's vandalism (the revision, not the current page — you can use the "Permanent link") and the user's talk page (which is included with {{tl|User}}).
#Add new reports to the top of the list. Use format: <nowiki>#Reporting user {{User|Briess}} for edits [link], [link] and [link] ~~~~ </nowiki>
#Please remember to sign the report with <code>~~</code><code>~~</code>
#If a report has remained here for more than 24 hours and no action has been taken, please leave a message on an [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=sysop&limit=50 admin's] talk page.
|}
</div>
==Reports==

* Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/89.187.170.169|89.187.170.169]] for inserting spam into [[Utility:Dwarf_Therapist/Addons_Repository]].
* Reporting...vandalism-adjecent shenanigans from an anon, as expected {{user|dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/168.216.12.16}} Example:(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Intelligent_undead&oldid=255682) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
** Blocked - I think all edits have been reverted as well. (No need to mark reports as "minor" changes, by the way) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
* If I might be permitted to include a brief personal opinion here, this is an example of what happens when one has a perfect storm of a virus, its quarantine procedures, and protests, all together. So, reporting user {{user|BurnLootMurder}} for gibbering-insane [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Material&curid=31922&diff=252946&oldid=249363 '''trolling and vandalism''', which should really have a CW for implied violence and encouragement to doxxing on it, IMHO] The obvious solution being, to block and revert with due speed.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 09:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
** Done —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:55, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
*Reporting user {{user|DogfanDFNerd‎}} for repeatedly trying to change the [[:File:WikiLogo 4fa619.png|wiki logo]] with a low quality replacement. Something as important as the logo shouldn't be meddled with by non-admins, much less users without any edits, and the fact they can't be bothered to fix the glaring spelling mistake by the third time suspends my belief that this is being done in good faith. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 13:59, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
** Sorry for the delay - I've protected the page. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
*Reporting user {{User|Silverwing235}} for a long-standing pattern of problematic editing. As an example, after the first 3 times Silverwing235 [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247287&oldid=247280 added this error], I [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&curid=36342&diff=247295&oldid=241756 explained the problem] on Silverwing235's talk page. Silverwing235 [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=next&oldid=247295 removed that explanation] with the comment "message received and understood", then less than a day later [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247303&oldid=247296 made the same edit a fourth time]. Silverwing235 started making many problematic edits in July 2018, received a [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=238883&oldid=238709 warning in January 2019], and has continued unabated since; just this weekend I wasted more than two hours reviewing and reverting this user's edits. Sadly, it appears nothing short of a block will stop the problematic editing.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
** Thank you for dealing with this. As I haven't been very active on the wiki recently, I don't want to take any administrative action on this alone, particularly since some of Silverwing235's edits that I've seen have been constructive (and I don't personally have a good sense of how many have been disruptive). Edit warring isn't good, though - if you've seen more instances of that, or a large number of disruptive edits recently, let me know. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
***The last time you [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=238890&oldid=238883 suggested doing nothing] (nine months ago) it didn't work; I see no reason to assume the results will be different this time around. Since January, Silverwing235 has made 1779 edits, and I have made more than 265 reversions. You might then assume that means that 85% of Silverwing235's edits were "constructive", but the number is considerably lower; Silverwing235 tends to "serial-edit" the same article multiple times in a row and I revert to the last-good version with a single edit. In fact, Silverwing235 has the "current" edit on only 487 of those pages in that time frame, which charitably estimates the "constructive" edit rate somewhere around 50%. Anyway, this prolonged situation has sapped my desire to work on the wiki, so you'll need to find someone else to proofread Silverwing235's edits.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
****I don't think doing nothing is the solution, but I think some of these edits are pretty subjective. Of the edits you reverted today, I agree with [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Meat_industry&diff=prev&oldid=247436] (although the section is admittedly inconsistent with its other 7 sibling sections), and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Equipment&diff=prev&oldid=247438] (although this is pretty minor, the "each" shouldn't have been removed). I think [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=247437&oldid=247435] was unclear both ways (only the first and third action led to the consequence in the same sentence, which I tried to address [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=next&oldid=247437 here]). As for [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Armor&diff=prev&oldid=247439], you reverted several reasonable changes besides the singular "they"-related change. (I probably would have done the same after dealing with a number of earlier edits, to be fair.) I don't think "he" or "it" can apply to "dwarf or other creature" in every case, but regardless of that, singular "they" is controversial, as you have mentioned. Neither [[DF:MOS|this wiki]] nor [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia] seem to take a strong stance on the matter, so in my book, it's a personal preference - it's not right or wrong. I am unwilling to take administrative action over it, and I don't want to see edit wars over it either (i.e. going forward, I will side in favor of whatever choice was made in the article before it was changed). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:59, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
**I hate to add to this old thread, but, as it has been raised before, it seems appropriate. As Loci said in 2019, this '''is''' a long-standing pattern, and this user makes a large number of edits every month. One example: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256610&oldid=256609], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256621&oldid=256620], [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256644&oldid=256643]. I was an active editor on the wiki some years ago—not that it matters—and since I rejoined, this kind of editing showing up in the recent changes has been a huge distraction from any other editing I mean to do. I know this ''isn't'' Wikipedia, but this kind of editing—literally declaiming “stylistic [sic] sense be damned” in edit summaries (which are always marked '''m'''—why?)—is the reason why Wikipedia has policies like [[wikipedia:WP:CIR|WP:CIR]], [[wikipedia:WP:DE|WP:DE]], [[wikipedia:WP:DDE|WP:DDE]], and especially [[wikipedia:WP:IDHT|WP:IDHT]]. It's hard to consider any wiki editing ''productive'' when there is no constraint on this behavior. The large number of similar edits (often "serial" edits, as Loci mentioned) performed by this single editor means that anything another editor adds will probably be similarly “fixed” within a few months. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 21:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
***I’d like to add my own third-person (second-person?) perspective on this. One of being a non-native English writer prone to making the kind of mistakes SilverWing fixes. Thanks to that, I (and others) don’t have to worry as much about perfecting the language while adding information, which makes adding. Conversely, I believe the strict rules of Wikipedia makes it harder for new editors to join. For Wikipedia, this may be a positive as it increases the quality, but this wiki is one starved for editors and can thus not afford such luxuries. It is true that SilverWing has a pattern of editing recently edited articles, which may bury those recent edits. As to why, my suspicion (backed up by what I remember them writing about it on the forum) is that they read the edit to check for errors/bad grammar, and then skim through the rest of the article while they are at it. The ’m’ is to mark that they didn’t add any info, only refactor what was already available. That way other wiki editors can chose to ignore those edits. (I believe that is the intended usage of the ’m’inor edit mark, am I wrong?) I’ve not seen them ”fix”/revert anything but changes to the syntax. They are obviously stubborn when it comes to that, perhaps in excess, but it should not disturb you when adding content. I believe that worry is unfounded. Ultimately, while grammar is subjective means not all of SilverWing’s edits are clearly productive, but I’d still argue that having someone like them adds a certain polish to the wiki we would otherwise miss out on. —[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 01:05, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****To the contrary: Silverwing235 often '''introduces''' errors in both grammar and syntax. That is actually the point of this thread.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:21, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****The problem I have with that assessment is that, from the (admittedly not thorough) looks I've had at Silverwing235's edit history, a lot of edits ''have'' been productive. Some have fixed mistakes that other editors have introduced, like Voliol described, which has a positive impact on the wiki. As for how to deal with the edits that introduce errors, see my comment below. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
******I didn't say they ''always'' introduce errors, but they ''often'' do. On Wikipedia, this was once a fairly common problem, but a variety of policies have reduced both its occurrence and its impact. WP editors who consistently try to make “corrections” to a narrow set of linguistic features, ''often'' committing certain kinds of error—for example, “correcting” occurrences of “or” so that it is almost always preceded by a comma—are considered disruptive, ''even if many of their edits are productive''. And while this wiki isn't Wikipedia, and has its own specific needs, etc., the problem is probably about the same (though it might ultimately be worse for this wiki, since the number of editors active on a given day is a tiny fraction). '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 19:30, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
*** Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256644]. A comma might have been a better choice than a semicolon, but ''no'' punctuation there makes the sentence more difficult to parse. This is a situation where I would encourage a talk page or user page discussion as appropriate. I do think your [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256645 most recent edit] was a good compromise, though. [Edit: maybe the comma should have gone after "visitor" instead, but that's beside the point - this was a good-faith attempt to make the article more readable, and it should have been responded to with an improvement, not a reversion.] More generally, I don't want to block individual users for making edits like this. I have been keeping an eye on [[Special:RecentChanges]], and I think most of Silverwing235's changes in recent months have been uncontroversial compared to the ones that Loci originally report here. I ''am'' willing to temporarily lock pages in the cases of arguments being made in edit summaries, such as the one you and Silverwing participated in here, if necessary. I think I agree with Voliol for the most part, and invoking [[wikipedia:WP:CIR]] doesn't seem appropriate to me. Some edit summaries don't make sense, but I think that minor changes are generally tagged appropriately, and you can filter them out from [[Special:RecentChanges]] if you like. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:50, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****Re [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256644]: that's why '''I''' finally edited it myself. Silverwing235's edit ''introduced errors'' rather than ''fix'' it. To be honest, I don't have time to clarify the rest of this. See my edit history since I rejoined just a few weeks ago. It's enough for me to see that a long-time editor like Loci actually appears to have abandoned the wiki over similar problems—I, myself, am probably out as well. There just isn't time. I wanted to add to articles relevant to modding, now that DF has undergone several updates (and much of the information about the raws here appears to be outdated or “partially correct” since then). That no one has addressed Silverwing235's behavior is surprising. I have huge respect for you, otherwise, Lethosor, but I think you've got the wrong impression here. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:16, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****I think there was an attempt to fix the run-on sentence there originally, and I would typically tend to agree with [[Wikipedia:WP:NOTPERFECT]]. That is, I think that since there was an attempt to improve the article, other editors should prefer to continue to improve the article, or figure out some mutually-agreeable solution, rather than simply reverting changes. However,
******in this case, I see why [[Wikipedia:WP:IDHT]] could apply, given that the error was reverted multiple times (I think this is more oriented towards lengthy discussions, not edit warring, but it could be applied to the latter too).
******I understand that attempting to improve erroneous edits is more time-consuming than simply reverting them. I often don't have time to screen everything myself.
******I appreciate your concern for the wiki, and I don't want to drive editors away. We need the kind of content that you want to add, just as much as we need the types of fixes Silverwing235 is attempting to make. I would like to find some solution that can allow everyone to contribute.
******If Silverwing235 is making ''a lot'' of erroneous edits, to the point where the quality of the wiki is negatively impacted, then I agree that something should be done.
*****Here is my proposal - over the next couple weeks, I will look over as many of Silverwing235's edits as I can, focusing on more recent ones. I will note any that I consider productive ''or'' counterproductive, although I may not be able to address all of the latter. You're welcome to flag any that you think I should consider, although you're under no obligation to. If I notice a significant number of counterproductive edits, I will send them over to Silverwing235 (and link them here). After that, if similar edits continue, I think that would warrant more warnings and/or administrative action (again, I would greatly prefer not to take severe steps like an immediate block). What do you think of this? If there are ways that Wikipedia handles situations like this, I'd be open to hearing about them too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
***I've encouraged Silverwing to leave better edit summaries, and to move discussions to talk pages if needed. Hopefully this helps encourage more productive changes like [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=next&oldid=256645]. I do still want to be informed if you notice a persistent pattern of issues, but this looks to me like a single argument that stands out from a more recent pattern of mostly-helpful edits. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
****I think this is the last thing I care to say about it: [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Loci#Discussion_in.2C_supposedly.2C_proper_context...], as a response to [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&oldid=247295#An_Usage] (which the user ''removed''—why?), is egregious. From this and from my own observations just skimming their edit history, I don't know how this user never saw consequences.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:36, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
*****Looking back on that, I think that should have drawn a warning. Initially, I was mostly focused on trying to understand the meaning of that comment, and didn't consider that it was worded as harshly as it was. I understand your [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&diff=prev&oldid=256716 comment] on [[wikipedia:WP:AAGF|WP:AAGF]] better now. As for removing discussions on user pages, I still think [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Lethosor&diff=256720&oldid=256716 my comment] on [[Wikipedia:WP:OWNTALK]] is relevant. That's why I'd prefer to keep the discussion on disruptive editing here, since removing parts of this discussion is not acceptable. Maintaining references to relevant discussions here is also helpful, so thank you for those. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

*vandalism by {{User|Johnhankse}} on 40d:Rose gold, [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Rose_gold&oldid=234402] and [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Rose_gold&oldid=234401] [[User:MathFox|MathFox]] ([[User talk:MathFox|talk]]) 09:44, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
*advertising by user {{User|Click4Support}} on the page [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Page request]] --[[User:Edern76|Edern76]] ([[User talk:Edern76|talk]]) 10:54, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
*reverted edits from IP editor {{User|174.51.109.169}} selling e-cigs at [[Mist]]; "reviewed content and references" lol who does that [[User:Vasiln|Vasiln]] ([[User talk:Vasiln|talk]]) 06:48, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*godlysockpuppet here, never used a wiki but just reporting that the df2012 page on security design and df2012 page on Maul has been turned to a spam advertising page. Feel free to clean this up or something. //edit I undid the spam. Im the random IP address.
* Reporting {{user|Bancream}} for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Pressure&curid=11219&diff=189434&oldid=156802 this edit] on [[40d:Pressure]]. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
* Reporting {{user|Pingping111}} for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=185468 this revision] on [[Talk:Main Page]] (12 separate edits). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 17:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
* More IP spam from {{User|180.194.171.229}}: [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline:Succession_League&diff=prev&oldid=183274 here]. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 19:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
* IP Spam: [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline:Succession_League&curid=6982&diff=183202&oldid=180867 this edit] by {{User|180.194.169.157}} --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 16:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
: This report and the one following it both come from the 180.194.*.* block of IP addresses. Perhaps this should be looked into. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 16:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
*IP Spam http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion&curid=14457&diff=182911&oldid=180865 – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Old Ancient|Old Ancient]]

* <s>Not sure how to report this, but [[User:71.118.242.47|71.118.242.47]] [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Bloodline%3ASuccession_League_Games&action=historysubmit&diff=182554&oldid=73455 added over 50000 g's] on [[Bloodline:Succession League Games|this page]]. This doesn't seem like the type of spam we normally see, so I'm not sure if it's a bot, but I wouldn't exactly say it's useful information to have in an article. It also doesn't seem like an automated DOS-type attack, but it definitely isn't a normal edit so I thought I'd post it here. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 21:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)</s>
: Considering the lack of spam from this IP since, I don't see any reason to act on this incident now. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 20:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Annaferry]], a user who registered about 10 minutes ago and promptly [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:GhostDwemer&oldid=182179 posted spam on GhostDwemer's talk page]. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 02:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Wingramo]] for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=ASCII_Art_Reward&diff=prev&oldid=179328 this edit]. It supposedly links to the Bay12 Support page but links to downloadranking.com instead. --[[User:Chronotab|Chronotab]] 18:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
:Wingramo's [[Special:Contributions/Wingramo|contributions]], also include an edit on [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_RPG&diff=prev&oldid=179721 Dwarf Fortress RPG] and [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&action=historysubmit&diff=179417&oldid=177987 History of Dwarf Fortress], which I reverted. They seem to be from December, so I'm surprised they went unnoticed. Strangely, Wingramo hasn't made any edits since then. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}}) 19:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

* Reporting [[User:Alloy7memory]] for [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Architecture&curid=1583&diff=181412&oldid=181411 this edit], which [[Special:Contributions/174.239.35.25|174.239.35.25]] reverted. It's not exactly "link spam", but the username looks similar to most spambots (although strangely it actually contains real words). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 18:06, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/180.194.171.159|180.194.171.159]] for an unrelated link to [http://fosamaxlawsuit12.altervista.org/ something about alcohol abuse] on both [[Bloodline:Succession_League]] and [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion]].
*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/80.218.59.174|80.218.59.174]] for an [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&curid=19125&diff=175408&oldid=174954 edit] made to this page itself. --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 01:51, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting IP [[Special:Contributions/112.202.121.89|112.202.121.89]] for its "contributions" of spam links. 21:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::Those "contributions" were from a year ago. Considering that there hasn't been any spam from that IP address since then, there's no point in banning it now. I removed the spam. -- [[User:HiEv|Hi]][[User talk:HiEv|Ev]] 20:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting new user [[User_talk:Puravida|Puravida]] for a spam link on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Puravida]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 18:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
*Reporting new user [[User_talk:BLT111|BLT111]] for placing a link to an "adult tool site" on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:BLT111]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
**Already got that one - somehow, I didn't see the website link, but the rest of the page looked suspicious enough that I banned it anyways. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 16:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
***Yes, I edited the url out before posting here... Compliments with the reaction speed! --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:36, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
****In the future, '''don't do that''' - if a bot puts spam on its talk page, '''blank the entire page''' so it's clear that it needs to be deleted. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Reporting [[User talk:Celery‎|Celery]] for all of its "contributions" [[Special:Contributions/Celery|Celery]] [[Special:Contributions/71.75.99.199|71.75.99.199]] 02:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[Special:Contributions/63.248.241.226|63.248.241.226]] for this [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress:About&curid=2&diff=166777&oldid=144963 edit] --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 22:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[User talk:Casinostars‎|Casinostars]] for spam linking in [[Talk:Main Page]]. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Neystec1753|Neystec1753]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Neystec1753]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 11:00, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:Cry1313|Cry1313]] for edits [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&curid=5008&diff=159499&oldid=153841] and [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=History_of_Dwarf_Fortress&curid=5008&diff=159500&oldid=159499] [[User:Calc|Calc]] 12:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Reporting [[User talk:Neucent1742‎|Neucent1742]] for talk page spam, too. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Reporing [[User talk:Giome1861‎|Giome1861]] for talk page spam. [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 13:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Suco1260|Suco1260]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Suco1260]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 19:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Detoxdietgirl‎|Detoxdietgirl‎]] for placing an advertorial on her(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Detoxdietgirl‎]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 12:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Exto1871|Exto1871]] for placing an advertorial on his(?) user talk page [[User_talk:Exto1871]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 18:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
#Reporting new user [[User_talk:Rueti1215|Rueti1215]] for placing an advertorial on his user talk page [[User_talk:Rueti1215]]. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 14:23, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting user [[User_talk:Lethuphuong89|Lethuphuong89]] for two (already reverted) edits [[Special:Contributions/Lethuphuong89]] [[Special:Contributions/84.134.6.29|84.134.6.29]] 13:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting user [[User talk:Tari1388|Tari1388]] for (reverted) talk page spam. [[Special:Contributions/84.134.6.29|84.134.6.29]] 13:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

#Reporting IP 167.128.19.234 for vandalizing [[Talk:Main Page]] [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&oldid=158314]
--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 17:12, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting IP 94.122.66.247 for inserting spam links into [[Talk:Main Page]] and [[Talk:Main Page/Quote]]
--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 13:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:DMundell|DMundell]] for a bunch of spammy links - see [[Yeti]], [[Badger]], etc. I've reverted the edits and removed the spam.
-- [[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 11:34, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Um, I don't actually have an account here, but I've just noticed a few things:

- Clicking on some page links results in downloading a .rar file, named with the name of the page you were trying to go to. There's a blank file inside. Also, the main page is encountering database error. It's like the entire site is having a stroke, so I assume some kind of DDOS-like attack is being carried out.
Reporting user [[User:DivinaLittlefield|DivinaLittlefield]] for a number of edits. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 20:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
:Concur, 3 more edits by [[User:DivinaLittlefield|DivinaLittlefield]] around 21:00 today. Invisible direct and redirection links to a site hawking weight control. —[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 21:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Reporting users [[User:Shushu|Shushu]], [[User:Liliyuan|Liliyuan]], [[User:Smalltrees|Smalltrees]], and [[User:Bingbingyuan|Bingbingyuan]] for user tallk page spam. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 09:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user Ameriplan - bunch of spammy stuff in User talk:Ameriplan
[[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 11:25, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User talk:Aiai00125|Aiai00125]] for [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion&curid=14457&diff=153375&oldid=153097 this edit to the Centralized discussion page]. The user's talk page also contains linkage spam. -- [[User:Khym Chanur|Khym Chanur]] 03:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
:Also on [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=23a:Creature_small_mammals.txt&curid=15135&diff=153376&oldid=102951 23a:Creature_small_mammals.txt]. Both vandalized pages are reverted.
:[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 11:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:AWurth93|AWurth93]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Consolidated_Development:_Arcs,_core-items,_bloats,_Reqs_and_Powergoals&curid=17308&diff=153356&oldid=149506]. Yep, there's at least one link in that mess. - [[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 16:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:JBinkley89|JBinkley89]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Strange_mood] wait. I think this list is actually the same as Sgragg88's. -- [[User:RedHerring|Redherring]] 7:59 23/09/2011 GMT+2 (First time editing, sorry for the mess)
:I would suggest looking into users [[User:AWurth93|AWurth93]] and [[User:EKruse55|EKruse55]]. Their names follow the same pattern as Binkley and Gragg - if they are spam accounts then like those, they are probably to lie dormant for a few days before they start their spam.
:[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 12:40, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[User:SGragg88|SGragg88]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Water_wheel&diff=153193&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:String_dump&diff=153194&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Weapon_token&diff=153195&oldid=prev edit], and this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Creature_token&diff=153196&oldid=prev edit]. I'd be remiss to not include this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Lead&diff=153197&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Advanced_world_generation&diff=153198&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=23a:Weapon_token&diff=153199&oldid=prev edit], or this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Armor&diff=153200&oldid=prev edit]. And who could forget such classics as this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Strange_mood&diff=153201&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=40d:Armor_user&diff=153202&oldid=prev edit], this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Release_information&diff=153203&oldid=prev edit], and everbody's favorite: this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Caravans&diff=153204&oldid=prev edit]? But wait! There's more! This [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Strange_mood&diff=153205&oldid=152796 edit] free with purchase! --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 21:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Reporting user [[Special:Contributions/75.163.224.80|75.163.224.80]] for this [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Adventure_mode_quick_start&curid=18784&diff=152872&oldid=152303 edit] --[[User:Cali|Cali]] 04:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
:At Wikipedia we'd call that a "test edit" - most likely the first ever wiki edit by a young person who didn't quite believe they could change the internet. My bet is that there won't be any further disruption from that IP address, so no administrator action is required. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 14:56, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
:: I tend to agree here. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 07:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Pre-emptive, but I'm guessing the following are not genuine new-user registrations... 
(User creation log); 09:14 . . Download Love That Girl! - Season One 1080p movie New user account 
(User creation log); 08:44 . . Download 60 Minutes Australia - 2011 Full movie New user account 
[[Special:Contributions/194.200.65.239|194.200.65.239]] 10:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 
#Reporting IP Address 124.6.181.189 for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&oldid=152086 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 16:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting IP Address 124.6.181.183 for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&diff=prev&oldid=151941 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 19:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
#Reporting user [[User_talk:Jose|Jose]] for an [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Nail&oldid=151747 edit] which I have reverted. --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 18:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a link insertion at [[Talk:Main_Page/Quote/archive1]] by an anonymous IP. I undid it, not sure if other measures need to be taken.
[[User:Knight Otu|Knight Otu]] 19:10, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

There was a vandalism at "http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Ruin". -- Dragongutz
:No there wasn't - the article history clearly indicates that the article has '''never''' had any content. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

reporting user [[User:Jalohear]] [[http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=135938 link]]
:Interestingly, that user (and 2 others) signed up over a week ago and sat dormant this entire time. The bastards are trying to get sneaky... --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
::I've seen vandalized main pages like that on the other wikis under attack. I'm not sure, but I think they start doing that only after they've "burrowed" into the site for an extended period of time. I believe the goal is to keep their spam links a part of the wiki for as long as possible. [[User:Uristocrat|Uristocrat]] 08:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
:::I suspect they were remaining dormant in order to get past the "new user" stage and gain the ability to edit semi-protected pages. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
::::I've modified new user stage so that you have to have made 10 edits before you can edit semiprotected articles or create new articles, in addition to the 3 day wait period. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 17:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::I'm glad. Sounds like that should help. Although, I just tried to create my user profile ([[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]]) and it gave me a '''Permission error''', it said "You do not have permission to create new pages." (I do not have 10 edits yet.) Perhaps you should make user profiles exempt from this rule? Also, I would recommend mentioning to new members about these requirements. Otherwise, it could mean a lot of confused new members at a lot of complaints. You would not have to be specific, however. You could just say that "several edits" are required before that privilege is granted. --[[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]] 23:01:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::I made your user profile page for you. An admin will have to do anything else. Also, I have confirmation now that the webspam team at Google is taking a look at this. They're interested because it's not just this wiki, there are thousands of others being vandalized by spammers and their real goal is to get their crap into the search engines. That probably won't stop the spambots from vandalizing things, but it will help keep them from profiting from this. [[User:Uristocrat|Uristocrat]] 08:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::I'll look into permissions today and see if I can get user page creation working for newly registered users. Also, you're probably right about needing a notice of some sort for this change. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 16:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Both [[User_talk:DaisyBarrett DaisyBarrett]] ([http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Soil&diff=prev&oldid=151347 example]) and [[User_talk:SunshineMcfadden SunshineMcfadden]] ([http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Sand&diff=prev&oldid=151343 example]) have added link-spam marked as minor edits. Link spam is the only edits these two users have done. -- [[User:Khym Chanur|Khym Chanur]] 20:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
:Did you not notice that their edits were undone and '''I banned both of them 9 hours ago'''? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:15, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a single spam edit by 124.6.181.171, which I've reverted. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 07:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
:^Same story for DScheer82. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 10:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Town

2021-02-21T16:47:41Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Undo revision 256799 by Silverwing235 (talk). Ungrammatic and incongruous. The original did not appear to “butterfinger” anything.

{{Quality|Exceptional|20:51, 22 July 2017 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
:''"Town" may also refer to a fortress that has reached a [[fortress#Nomenclature|certain population level]].''

[[File:Town_map_43.png|thumb|300px|A map of a well developed town, exported from legends mode. 
Places of interest: 
█ Fortifications and central keep 
█ Warehouse 
█ Tavern 
█ Temple 
█ Library 
█ Well]]

A '''town''' is a large [[site]] founded and inhabited by [[human]]s and, possibly, various other creatures. The population and size can be determined by the map symbol representing it; from least to most populous: {{Raw Tile|+|7:0}}, {{Raw Tile|*|7:0}}, {{Raw Tile|#|7:0}}, and {{Raw Tile|☼|7:1}}. All towns start out from [[hamlet]]s, which immediately form into towns under the right circumstances, during worldgen. [[Road]]s link towns between other nearby towns and dwarven [[fortress]]es, as well as sites conquered by humans.

[[Adventure mode|Adventurers]] spend much quality time in towns - they can come to trade, speak, or entertain the townspeople, and occasionally to slay those who have invited their wrath. [[Tavern]]s in towns are a popular destination for many adventurers; they are the only sources of alcohol in human settlements and provide excellent entertainment, which includes [[performance]]s and the occasional drunken brawl. Other people of interest include:

* [[mercenary|mercenaries]], who will gather at [[tavern]]s, and make for great traveling companions.
* [[criminal]]s, who may be the target of quests
* [[priest]]s and [[monk]]s, [[guild|craftsmen]], and [[counting house|merchants]], who may have traveled the world, and may be embroiled in all sorts of [[intrigue]].

== Keep ==
At the heart of a town is a walled stronghold, garrisoned by many soldiers. Inside of the keep can be found a lord or lady, other high nobility, and men-at-arms willing to follow you unto death. If the town is the civ's seat of power, then the law-maker will also reside here. Below almost every keep is a [[dungeon]].

Since .47.01, keeps have had their households expanded, and most human keeps will have a variety of members, some familiar from fort mode, like doctors and executioners, some related to the expanded city, like judges, fire commissioners and sewer administrators, and some just plain household, like the housekeepers and chefs. The vast majority of these don't have interesting game mechanics associated with them tied to their positions, but many of them are caught up in some [[intrigue|scheme]].

== The town proper ==
[[File:TownSquare2.jpg|thumb|300px|Typical town thoroughfare]]

Outside of the keep is the realm of the bourgeoisie. Commuters and travelers walk among the densely-packed houses and shops in narrow streets, while stray domesticated animals roam the muddy alleyways and pastures. Vast shopping districts are major trade centers. Other buildings include warehouses (which can be ransacked without repercussion) and wells. Common structures include [[tavern]]s and [[temple]]s, but [[Library|libraries]] are very rare.

Below is a list of different shops and markets found in a town. Most towns do not have every single retail good available, and adventurers may have to travel to a different town in order to browse wares of a particular type. The shops that are "common" are common because only animal products (meat, bone, leather) and farm products (cloth and food) are produced in any significant numbers. Stone, wood, and metal are all extremely rare materials in towns, and because of this, few industries based upon these materials will spring up. An exception is the leather goods shop, which is rare compared to other leather shops.

Common shops:
* {{Raw Tile|µ|2:6:1}} General imports
* {{Raw Tile|%|2:6:1}} Food imports
* {{Raw Tile|[|2:6:1}} Clothing imports
* {{Raw Tile|[|7:6:1}} Woven clothing shop
* {{Raw Tile|º|6:6:1}} Cloth shop
* {{Raw Tile|[|6:6:1}} Leather clothing shop
* {{Raw Tile|ß|6:6:1}} Leather shop
* {{Raw Tile|Å|7:6:1}} Bone carver's shop

Rare shops:
* {{Raw Tile|╤|6:6:1}} Carpenter's shop
* {{Raw Tile|╤|7:6:1}} Stone furniture shop
* {{Raw Tile|╤|0:6:0}} Metal furniture shop
* {{Raw Tile|♦|2:6:1}} Gem cutter's shop
* {{Raw Tile|[|0:6:0}} Armorsmith's shop
* {{Raw Tile|/|6:6:1}} Bowyer's shop
* {{Raw Tile|/|0:6:0}} Weaponsmith's shop
* {{Raw Tile|Å|6:6:1}} Leather goods shop
* {{Raw Tile|Å|0:6:0}} Metal craft shop

In a market, one can find:
* Imported goods
* Imported food
* Imported clothing
* [[Meat]]
* Fruit and vegetables
* [[Cheese]]
* Processed goods

== Subterranea ==
[[Image:dungoen.jpg|300px|thumb|Subterranean layout from an early development screenshot on the DF development blog]]

Below a town are several subterranean structures: [[dungeon]]s, [[catacombs]], and [[sewer]]s. All three can be present at once, and frequently connect and overlap each other. [[Tomb]]s may also be present alongside catacombs. Criminals, outcasts of society and various subterranean creatures hide in the dark passages. They are common destinations for those looking to finish a [[quest]], gain reputation, or search for valuable loot.

Dungeons reside below the keep, while catacombs reside below temples. Both buildings are almost always present - sewers, on the other hand, can only be found in more developed towns. The presence of a sewer in a town can be confirmed by the presence of [[floor grate]]s in the middle of streets. They are accessible via small and elusive entrances above-ground, or by diving below nearby waterways.

== Destroyed or abandoned towns ==
:''Further information: [[Ruin]]''
[[File:Destroyed.jpg|thumb|center|1000px|Legend's entry about a town being sacked]]

In time, whether by war, beasts, a genocidal adventurer, or some other disaster, towns will be brought to ruin. Ruined towns are typically desolate wastelands of abandoned and destroyed buildings and structures. Shops and markets are typically bare, but occasionally some goods can still be left for you to steal. [[Bandit]]s and criminals may still lurk in the streets, and some may even make the ruins their home, if some supernatural creature or monster hasn't made themselves cozy already.

== Gallery ==
<gallery>
File:Growlgrowlgrowlgrowl.jpg|Town on zoomed-in travel map
File:Spidergroul.jpg|Town on regular travel map
File:Destroyedtown2.jpg|Ruins of a town before the gates of an abandoned keep
</gallery>

{{Translation
| dwarven = amost
| elvish = irive
| goblin = kabu
| human = ricgo
}}

{{world}}

{{Category|Adventurer mode}}

User:Sriefmadsakzro

2021-02-20T23:06:22Z

Sriefmadsakzro:

User talk:Silverwing235

2021-02-20T02:26:01Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Bourgeoisie */

== *Wandering janitor puts down mop and bucket* ==

Yes, I know, not a very interesting placeholder.....but a beginning nonetheless. EDIT: On the other hand "If it looks wrong, it gets fixed" is my rule, which is why spot-edits will be preferred to blind-reverts around here. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:22, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

== [[DF2014:Centaur]] plural ==

In case you were wondering - your [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Centaur&diff=236185&oldid=229661 edit] didn't offend me at all, but in cases where there are multiple possible plurals, we try to stick with the one in the raws (click "show" next to the Raws box on [[DF2014:Centaur]], for example, or click on the "Raws" link itself). That's what DF uses in-game, and it's consistent with [[DF:Rule G]]. Just something to keep in mind. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

== On paragraphs ==

A paragraph is a group of closely-related sentences with a central theme. In several recent edits you have combined multiple paragraphs that do not share a central theme. In addition to being grammatically incorrect, this also makes it more difficult for players to skim the article for relevant information. For example, [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Losing&curid=31835&diff=238706&oldid=238703 this edit] attached the sentence about challenges for experienced players to a paragraph that begins "Most new players...". Please cease "fixing" short paragraphs by lumping them in with other, tangentially-related paragraphs.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:37, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Looks like there's already paragraph heading? I'll place this here, then: What's the logic/why merge [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Vampire&curid=32556&diff=254740&oldid=254722 these paragraphs] while also not merging them with the text preceding them?
(not the only paragraph merge I've seen, just a recent example) --[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 07:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

...to the extent they make sense as components of a single paragraph. Thanks for the reminder, will implement shortly. As for logic, being a part of the autistic community as I am...my 'reader's aesthetic' got irked, I suppose you could say. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

== Disruptive Editing ==

'''Warning''': Repeatedly modifying acceptable page layouts and punctuation to suit your personal taste is [[wikipedia:Disruptive_editing|disruptive]]. Further disruptive edits may result in a ban. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:40, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

:While I agree that some of the edits in question weren't necessary, others were constructive - at least the first half of [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Wood&curid=32642&diff=238873&oldid=238869&rcid=383537 wood], for example. I don't think reverting everything is a good solution, and I would be unwilling to block someone for this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:13, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

::With all due respect, this has been an ongoing problem since July. Roughly one third of my edits since then have been dealing with issues caused by this one user. I have spent a fair bit of time explaining why edits were problematic ([http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Slade&diff=prev&oldid=236259], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=prev&oldid=236737], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014_Talk:Steals_food&oldid=237634], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=prev&oldid=238709]) and saving "constructive" changes ([http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Miasma&diff=prev&oldid=236260], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Dragon&diff=prev&oldid=237541], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Diplomat&diff=next&oldid=238673], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Scholar&diff=next&oldid=238647]). However, Silverwing235 has continued to make the same types of problematic edits across more and more articles. While I still review each Silverwing235-edited article individually and only revert those which are problematic, I no longer consider it worthwhile to explain yet again why sprinkling in unnecessary commas and deleting newlines isn't acceptable, nor do I salvage minor "constructive" bits that happen to be included with disruptive edits. [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Magma_glass_furnace&curid=31863&diff=238911&oldid=238863 This] is a fine example: is changing the capitalization of "item hauler" worth burying information about architectural value at the end of a paragraph about sand gathering? No.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 16:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. It's pretty much the standard I ''attempt'' to hold myself to when editing around here as a rule, Lethosor - and also explains why some edits were marked as minor, in an attempt to '''avoid''' being blind-reverted like this, w/out apparent consideration of merit. You should both expect forum PM's about this in due course. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Resurrecting an old topic here: while I admit I haven't been monitoring the situation here very much, I've noticed that I don't always agree with some edits you make. Some are good, and I don't have opinions on some others, but some are (in my opinion) not correct - for example, the one that was reverted [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Creature_token&diff=prev&oldid=241753 here]. I don't have a particularly good policy in mind, and I don't think ''everything'' you do should be reverted by any means (so don't feel discouraged from fixing things), but I'd like to suggest that you pay closer attention to which edits are being reverted and why. Hopefully that will cut down on some editing disagreements I've seen in the recent changes list. I really don't want to make any decisions on the matter, but I think that making specific types of edits that tend to be reverted isn't productive for anyone involved (noting that this doesn't apply to a majority of your changes that I've seen, in my opinion). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Again: I don't want to have to block you, or anything like that, but [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247303&oldid=247296 this sort of edit] is not okay. If you have a disagreement with another editor, take it up with them; don't engage in edit wars, particularly not with edit summaries like that. (Note that I have not been very active as of recently, so I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the entire situation to do anything yet - maybe that was just one of a handful of problematic edits. [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247304 This one] is definitely okay, for instance. But please try to avoid the sorts of edits that are apparently getting reverted regularly.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

From AIV, my thoughts on your four edits that were reverted by Loci today:
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Meat_industry&diff=prev&oldid=247436]: I think the revert was appropriate - although the original edit wasn't malicious, the section title that you removed was useful for readability, and the section seems to be entirely about wild animals. Perhaps nesting this section under "Breeding" would have been better. The comment about mods also wasn't really necessary - you can mod pretty much anything in DF, and listing all the possibilities everywhere would just clutter things up.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Equipment&diff=prev&oldid=247438]: the second "each" is technically necessary, since each marksdwarf ''and'' each hunter needs a quiver. Granted, I think it's clear what the sentence means without it, but it shouldn't have been removed. Also, "flimflammery" in the edit summary is not helpful - in general, your edit summaries could stand to be shorter and clearer about what you're actually changing, which might help avoid some annoyances when others look over them.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=247437&oldid=247435] - I think both the previous version and yours were confusing, so I tried to reword it myself. (Basically, you're right that dwarves can't view bodies that fell into magma, but they ''can'' view bodies that are in stockpiles, so saying that viewing bodies only applied to bodies left on the ground wasn't right.) A [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=236737&oldid=236421 very similar edit] that you made had also been reverted, though. I'm suspecting that you just forgot about that, since it was so long ago, but in general, reintroducing changes that have already been reverted could be considered edit warring, which is not something I want to deal with.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Armor&diff=prev&oldid=247439]: the core disagreement seems to be around singular "they" (mentioned in another section on your talk page). In my book, this is a personal preference. Since your changes have led to some disagreements, I'm going to ask you to avoid changing any existing content related to singular "they" (this applies to things that use it and things that don't). This applies to other users too. I think this is the simplest way to avoid behavior that could be considered edit warring.
—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

And Silverwing235 makes answer:

1: ''"Perhaps nesting this section under "Breeding" would have been better."'' Something along those lines was what I was trying to do, and thought I had done, before 'Loci, Vandalfinder Mod' came along with their reverts (Not that I want anyone to take on that role with regards to me in particular, it's rather annoying - please do assume apologies when necessary).

2: ''"Also, "flimflammery" in the edit summary is not helpful"'' IOW, refrain from scribbling in the margins, or mental ''ngathsesh'', as the dwarves would have it, yeah, got it. One can only try, anyway.

3 & 4: Not much to say here, other than: thanks for the assist and I '''wholeheartedly agree''' with you about the personal preference thing? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:54, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

== Singular they ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Need&curid=35157&diff=239015&oldid=239014 this edit]:

General use of "they" as an ungendered singular pronoun is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Acceptability_and_prescriptive_guidance controversial]. If you feel compelled to remove the gendered pronoun, common advice is to reword the sentence to avoid the appearance of pronoun disagreement. In this case:

: The better focused a dwarf is, the swifter she finishes all her tasks.

could be rewritten as:

: The better focused your dwarves are, the swifter they finish their tasks.

: A focused dwarf finishes tasks more swiftly.

It is generally easy to alter the wording, and always better than swapping one acceptable-yet-problematic form for a different acceptable-yet-problematic form that you happen to prefer.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 00:51, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

== Just in case people are wondering why.... ==

...such things as talk pages with topic 'Verification page/verification' and 'ignore this' are popping up, the answer should be obvious if it wasn't already - preparation. That, and that my particular 'style' leads me to not be a fan of unnecessary redlinks - something like Occam's Razor, really. :D --[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 10:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== Grammar ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=v0.31:Temple&curid=13741&diff=239647&oldid=236295 this edit]:

That's not a "sentence fragment"; it's an [[wikipedia:appositive|appositive]], a restatement of a noun for clarification.

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Siege&diff=prev&oldid=239648 this edit]:

Adverbs are comma-offset when they apply to the sentence as a whole, not the active verb. Since "usually" is plausibly modifying "are", the added comma is incorrect.

Incidentally, these are good examples why inserting every possible comma is problematic. Commas can change the meaning of a sentence, and that possibility makes it more difficult to parse comma-saturated sentences.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== Egg production editing shenanigans ==

I have a deep feeling that guy is right, about the kobolds at least. I shouldn't have removed that much stuff from the original table anyway. Yes, I plan on reverting that, this time also adding giant animals & animal people, max age column, and sorting out the rest in a coherent way, just give me some time. The original edit took me nearly 2 hours. [[User:DarklingArcher|DarklingArcher]] ([[User talk:DarklingArcher|talk]]) 14:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

== Let's not stress about [[DF2014:Stress]] ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Stress&curid=33889&diff=240383&oldid=240376 this edit]

* ''talking with the spouse''
:* In my opinion, "the" means here that the person in question is talking with his/her spouse (not just with any spouse), so it may be justified.

* ''caught in a freakish weather''
:* While I admit this is wrong ("weather" is uncountable), I would keep it the original way as it is consistent with [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Community Portal|Rule G]] and doesn't seem ''that'' jarring to me.

* ''grim satisfaction at somebody's death''
:* This appears when you kill people in adventurer mode
:* So it's not about ''seeing'' somebody's death, but causing it yourself

* And the two typos you found were actually mine, feel free to correct these if you find more. I haven't seen Toady make typos ''yet''. --[[User:DarklingArcher|DarklingArcher]] ([[User talk:DarklingArcher|talk]]) 15:00, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

== *thumbsup*==
[http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Hair&curid=31316&diff=241238&oldid=241227 This] just so happens to be kind of the direction I was going anyway. Thanks. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 19:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for removing things where people confused entities with creatures. ive been seeing people on the forum confusing the two lately and like it when teh wiki sticks to what Tarn actually calls things [[Special:Contributions/35.191.3.215|35.191.3.215]]

== public/private articles ==
So, you've enjoyed a continuity around here that I lost, hoping you could give me your spin on what is "policy" in this regard. Came across the article [[Cacame Awemedinade]], and it strikes me as pure vanity, something that belongs under a Username/<article> rather than in the public space. Yes, there is a long forum thread behind it, but that, alone, doesn't seem apt justification - or is it? Or has this one just been grandfathered in, but similar posts are discouraged? Either way. [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] ([[User talk:Albedo|talk]]) 13:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
:My impression is that it's notable enough (or was at the time it was written), similar to [[Boatmurdered]]. I would personally be fine with keeping it, but would discourage creating many similar pages, particularly for newer and less historically-relevant content. (This discussion might also be more suitable for the article's talk page.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, since it was started here, we may as well finish it - or attempt to do so, at least. I concur with Lethosor's view on this. I also concur on the notion of moving any further similar matters to appropriate talk pages - this being the first time I've had to deal with something outside my pay grade like this (came on around 43.05 and quickly restricted myself to copy editing and "janitorial" work (spelling, grammar, etc)). [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 14:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
* Works for me, tho' BoatMurdered is, at least for me, on a whole diff level. I placed the discussion here (rather than there) b/c it was more a question re "general policy" and editorial SOP, rather than one applicable solely to that one article. [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] ([[User talk:Albedo|talk]]) 07:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

== Official complaints in AiV - oh dear. ==

(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&curid=19125&diff=256647&oldid=255758)...this is the first time, I must say, that my edits always being marked as minor had specifically been called out (be it known, anyone else with that issue can either be referred here, or check their own user profile settings for the relevant option - when I started here from my similar-named Bay12 account, I didn't intend to continually make public, non-hideable announcements of ''spelling and grammar corrections'' or the like.) There has, however, very recently been quite a bit of... overreach, I suppose, in that context. Continually chasing after 'ghost' run-on sentences despite somewhat overly subtly-worded orders to desist, was almost certainly particularly unwise, for which I apologise, and shall henceforth strive to not repeat (not that I'm sure that's what the complainant wants, anyway - AIUI, I'm being painted as some kind of menace to the wiki, quite needlessly IMHO 'the 'style be dammed' comment in one of my edits was actually me getting pretty annoyed with the revert-flavoured individual, as people will do with these things. Irregardless of fault, Lethosor, my sincere apologies for that... edit mini-war, I think?) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 22:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

:I see you've beaten me to starting a discussion on this. In this particular case, I do think you identified a run-on that could be improved in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256644&oldid=256643], but I think your fixes might have changed the meaning of the sentence. I'm still not sure about this particular case myself, honestly. This was close enough to an "edit war" to make me concerned, so I would suggest that you either attempt to find an alternative way of rewording sentences when this happens (as opposed to redoing simple edits that have been reverted) or taking the discussion to the talk page. For example, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256648&oldid=256645] clears up the original confusion I had about where to split the sentence in this case. Also, blank edit summaries or summaries like "fix scuff-up" or "scrub nonsense" aren't necessarily clear to other editors without more context. Something like "fixed run-on" or "clarified that the plot involves theft, not the agent" would give editors a better idea of what you were trying to fix, and hopefully make it easier to identify a better compromise if they don't think your edit was correct. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:08, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

[emptyspace] [/emptyspace]

....(There was an overly-sharp point made here by another user (honestly enough to be more than usually emotionally distressing - *shrug* part of Silverwing235's experience of high-functioning autism circa pandemic, I suppose.) about phrasing someone as a saboteur and incivility of the context, all of which, contextual shortcoming included, has since been analysed, noted, and - hindsight always being 20/20 - been adjusted for.) (Note to self, must take more care on wiki userpages.) In regards to reasons for certain portions of my user page having been deleted - I simply did not wish to deal with whatever matter or matters was/were the topic of discussion at the time IIRC, and unfortunately lost the way back, as inevitably happens with these things. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

== DFW vandalism definition VS dictionary definition, if different ==
...Just to be certain, Lethosor, the context in which 'vandalism' is usually used on this wiki versus in the dictionary...do mostly agree w/each other, right? (thought I'd take a leaf from this wiki's admin book, try and contain the winding-down of my negative press, biased as it appears to be, to somewhere more appropriate than AiV.) I mean, surely edit-wars such as the one I was recently part of, ''don't'' constitute vandalism, per se? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:58, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

:I would consider "Vandalism" a subset of "Disruptive editing", but the page is named "AIV" because most incidents of disruptive editing on this wiki ''have'' also been vandalism (I'm not intending to refer to your edits in this case). I would prefer to keep discussion in one place as much as possible, but I could move the AIV discussion to a separate "DF:" page, I suppose. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

== Bourgeoisie ==

Please refrain from making edits in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=prev&oldid=256750 this vein] (summary: “rewrite bias-esque stuff (bourgeoisie was 200-300y ahead of (non-magical) 1400s tech level, IIRC)”). I will elaborate.

# I don't know what you mean by “bias-esque,” but if the use of the word “bourgeoisie” here might serve to express some particular bias that bears discussion, please explain. Personally, I don't see it; absent an explanation, I cannot make sense of your statement.
# As for your historical note, first: it's wrong; please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie#Origins_and_rise Bourgeoisie - Origins and rise]. Second, the correct usage of a word is generally determined by its contemporary sense; the historical origin of a term doesn't generally circumscribe its use except in special contexts where historical senses might conflict with current ones. In the case of “bourgeoisie,” since the article's context is neither the French Revolution nor Marxian sociopolitical/economic theories, there is no potential for such a conflict. (Even if there ''were'', most senses of “bourgeoisie” and “bourgeois” are so closely related that it would make little difference. Also, note that the article is about a computer game in a fantasy setting with specific fictional elements borrowed from the real world ''without'' regard for historical relationships between them.)
# A side note to the previous point: as feudal structures in Europe faced challenges in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades High] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Late_Middle_Ages Late] Middle Ages, a segment of society [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_History_of_Europe_(1000_AD_%E2%80%94_Present)#Crafts_and_urban_growth variously] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_commune#Origins coalesced] which both [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization required] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_privileges impelled] the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_General_(France)#Origin transformation] of those structures. Thus, in 1789, when the Assembly [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_feudalism_in_France declared the abolition of the feudal system] in France, it expressed the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_General_of_1789#Rebellion_of_the_Parlements disposition] of an [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_of_the_realm#Third_Estate extant class] toward an [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien_R%C3%A9gime established order].
# A further side note: '''etymologically''', the word “bourgeoisie” is a late-feudal way of saying “[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/borgeis#Old_French town-dweller].” In that light, the choice of ''bourgeoisie'' seems not only correct, but ''richly descriptive and illuminating''. Whoever chose to write that sentence in the first place might even have been aware of that fact. (All of this is incidental to the point, however.)

It would be helpful if this kind of edit could be avoided, in general. To that end, notice that your summary ended with "IIRC" (regarding hypothetical information as part of your justification). But clearly, a little self-checking would have revealed to you that you ''didn't'' recall correctly. After all, why guess, especially when there is nothing actually ''wrong'' with the sentence you propose to revise? A significant proportion of your edits seem to fall into this category. Please consider exercising restraint when you feel an urge to make elective edits, especially when they would ''remove'' another author's work without resulting in something ''better''. And you should categorically '''not''' make such edits without being sure they are, in fact, correct, as you did in this case.
'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 02:25, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Silverwing235

2021-02-20T02:25:38Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Bourgeoisie */

== *Wandering janitor puts down mop and bucket* ==

Yes, I know, not a very interesting placeholder.....but a beginning nonetheless. EDIT: On the other hand "If it looks wrong, it gets fixed" is my rule, which is why spot-edits will be preferred to blind-reverts around here. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:22, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

== [[DF2014:Centaur]] plural ==

In case you were wondering - your [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Centaur&diff=236185&oldid=229661 edit] didn't offend me at all, but in cases where there are multiple possible plurals, we try to stick with the one in the raws (click "show" next to the Raws box on [[DF2014:Centaur]], for example, or click on the "Raws" link itself). That's what DF uses in-game, and it's consistent with [[DF:Rule G]]. Just something to keep in mind. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

== On paragraphs ==

A paragraph is a group of closely-related sentences with a central theme. In several recent edits you have combined multiple paragraphs that do not share a central theme. In addition to being grammatically incorrect, this also makes it more difficult for players to skim the article for relevant information. For example, [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Losing&curid=31835&diff=238706&oldid=238703 this edit] attached the sentence about challenges for experienced players to a paragraph that begins "Most new players...". Please cease "fixing" short paragraphs by lumping them in with other, tangentially-related paragraphs.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:37, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Looks like there's already paragraph heading? I'll place this here, then: What's the logic/why merge [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Vampire&curid=32556&diff=254740&oldid=254722 these paragraphs] while also not merging them with the text preceding them?
(not the only paragraph merge I've seen, just a recent example) --[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 07:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

...to the extent they make sense as components of a single paragraph. Thanks for the reminder, will implement shortly. As for logic, being a part of the autistic community as I am...my 'reader's aesthetic' got irked, I suppose you could say. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

== Disruptive Editing ==

'''Warning''': Repeatedly modifying acceptable page layouts and punctuation to suit your personal taste is [[wikipedia:Disruptive_editing|disruptive]]. Further disruptive edits may result in a ban. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:40, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

:While I agree that some of the edits in question weren't necessary, others were constructive - at least the first half of [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Wood&curid=32642&diff=238873&oldid=238869&rcid=383537 wood], for example. I don't think reverting everything is a good solution, and I would be unwilling to block someone for this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:13, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

::With all due respect, this has been an ongoing problem since July. Roughly one third of my edits since then have been dealing with issues caused by this one user. I have spent a fair bit of time explaining why edits were problematic ([http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Slade&diff=prev&oldid=236259], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=prev&oldid=236737], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014_Talk:Steals_food&oldid=237634], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=prev&oldid=238709]) and saving "constructive" changes ([http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Miasma&diff=prev&oldid=236260], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Dragon&diff=prev&oldid=237541], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Diplomat&diff=next&oldid=238673], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Scholar&diff=next&oldid=238647]). However, Silverwing235 has continued to make the same types of problematic edits across more and more articles. While I still review each Silverwing235-edited article individually and only revert those which are problematic, I no longer consider it worthwhile to explain yet again why sprinkling in unnecessary commas and deleting newlines isn't acceptable, nor do I salvage minor "constructive" bits that happen to be included with disruptive edits. [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Magma_glass_furnace&curid=31863&diff=238911&oldid=238863 This] is a fine example: is changing the capitalization of "item hauler" worth burying information about architectural value at the end of a paragraph about sand gathering? No.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 16:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. It's pretty much the standard I ''attempt'' to hold myself to when editing around here as a rule, Lethosor - and also explains why some edits were marked as minor, in an attempt to '''avoid''' being blind-reverted like this, w/out apparent consideration of merit. You should both expect forum PM's about this in due course. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Resurrecting an old topic here: while I admit I haven't been monitoring the situation here very much, I've noticed that I don't always agree with some edits you make. Some are good, and I don't have opinions on some others, but some are (in my opinion) not correct - for example, the one that was reverted [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Creature_token&diff=prev&oldid=241753 here]. I don't have a particularly good policy in mind, and I don't think ''everything'' you do should be reverted by any means (so don't feel discouraged from fixing things), but I'd like to suggest that you pay closer attention to which edits are being reverted and why. Hopefully that will cut down on some editing disagreements I've seen in the recent changes list. I really don't want to make any decisions on the matter, but I think that making specific types of edits that tend to be reverted isn't productive for anyone involved (noting that this doesn't apply to a majority of your changes that I've seen, in my opinion). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Again: I don't want to have to block you, or anything like that, but [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247303&oldid=247296 this sort of edit] is not okay. If you have a disagreement with another editor, take it up with them; don't engage in edit wars, particularly not with edit summaries like that. (Note that I have not been very active as of recently, so I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the entire situation to do anything yet - maybe that was just one of a handful of problematic edits. [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247304 This one] is definitely okay, for instance. But please try to avoid the sorts of edits that are apparently getting reverted regularly.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

From AIV, my thoughts on your four edits that were reverted by Loci today:
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Meat_industry&diff=prev&oldid=247436]: I think the revert was appropriate - although the original edit wasn't malicious, the section title that you removed was useful for readability, and the section seems to be entirely about wild animals. Perhaps nesting this section under "Breeding" would have been better. The comment about mods also wasn't really necessary - you can mod pretty much anything in DF, and listing all the possibilities everywhere would just clutter things up.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Equipment&diff=prev&oldid=247438]: the second "each" is technically necessary, since each marksdwarf ''and'' each hunter needs a quiver. Granted, I think it's clear what the sentence means without it, but it shouldn't have been removed. Also, "flimflammery" in the edit summary is not helpful - in general, your edit summaries could stand to be shorter and clearer about what you're actually changing, which might help avoid some annoyances when others look over them.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=247437&oldid=247435] - I think both the previous version and yours were confusing, so I tried to reword it myself. (Basically, you're right that dwarves can't view bodies that fell into magma, but they ''can'' view bodies that are in stockpiles, so saying that viewing bodies only applied to bodies left on the ground wasn't right.) A [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=236737&oldid=236421 very similar edit] that you made had also been reverted, though. I'm suspecting that you just forgot about that, since it was so long ago, but in general, reintroducing changes that have already been reverted could be considered edit warring, which is not something I want to deal with.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Armor&diff=prev&oldid=247439]: the core disagreement seems to be around singular "they" (mentioned in another section on your talk page). In my book, this is a personal preference. Since your changes have led to some disagreements, I'm going to ask you to avoid changing any existing content related to singular "they" (this applies to things that use it and things that don't). This applies to other users too. I think this is the simplest way to avoid behavior that could be considered edit warring.
—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

And Silverwing235 makes answer:

1: ''"Perhaps nesting this section under "Breeding" would have been better."'' Something along those lines was what I was trying to do, and thought I had done, before 'Loci, Vandalfinder Mod' came along with their reverts (Not that I want anyone to take on that role with regards to me in particular, it's rather annoying - please do assume apologies when necessary).

2: ''"Also, "flimflammery" in the edit summary is not helpful"'' IOW, refrain from scribbling in the margins, or mental ''ngathsesh'', as the dwarves would have it, yeah, got it. One can only try, anyway.

3 & 4: Not much to say here, other than: thanks for the assist and I '''wholeheartedly agree''' with you about the personal preference thing? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:54, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

== Singular they ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Need&curid=35157&diff=239015&oldid=239014 this edit]:

General use of "they" as an ungendered singular pronoun is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Acceptability_and_prescriptive_guidance controversial]. If you feel compelled to remove the gendered pronoun, common advice is to reword the sentence to avoid the appearance of pronoun disagreement. In this case:

: The better focused a dwarf is, the swifter she finishes all her tasks.

could be rewritten as:

: The better focused your dwarves are, the swifter they finish their tasks.

: A focused dwarf finishes tasks more swiftly.

It is generally easy to alter the wording, and always better than swapping one acceptable-yet-problematic form for a different acceptable-yet-problematic form that you happen to prefer.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 00:51, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

== Just in case people are wondering why.... ==

...such things as talk pages with topic 'Verification page/verification' and 'ignore this' are popping up, the answer should be obvious if it wasn't already - preparation. That, and that my particular 'style' leads me to not be a fan of unnecessary redlinks - something like Occam's Razor, really. :D --[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 10:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== Grammar ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=v0.31:Temple&curid=13741&diff=239647&oldid=236295 this edit]:

That's not a "sentence fragment"; it's an [[wikipedia:appositive|appositive]], a restatement of a noun for clarification.

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Siege&diff=prev&oldid=239648 this edit]:

Adverbs are comma-offset when they apply to the sentence as a whole, not the active verb. Since "usually" is plausibly modifying "are", the added comma is incorrect.

Incidentally, these are good examples why inserting every possible comma is problematic. Commas can change the meaning of a sentence, and that possibility makes it more difficult to parse comma-saturated sentences.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== Egg production editing shenanigans ==

I have a deep feeling that guy is right, about the kobolds at least. I shouldn't have removed that much stuff from the original table anyway. Yes, I plan on reverting that, this time also adding giant animals & animal people, max age column, and sorting out the rest in a coherent way, just give me some time. The original edit took me nearly 2 hours. [[User:DarklingArcher|DarklingArcher]] ([[User talk:DarklingArcher|talk]]) 14:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

== Let's not stress about [[DF2014:Stress]] ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Stress&curid=33889&diff=240383&oldid=240376 this edit]

* ''talking with the spouse''
:* In my opinion, "the" means here that the person in question is talking with his/her spouse (not just with any spouse), so it may be justified.

* ''caught in a freakish weather''
:* While I admit this is wrong ("weather" is uncountable), I would keep it the original way as it is consistent with [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Community Portal|Rule G]] and doesn't seem ''that'' jarring to me.

* ''grim satisfaction at somebody's death''
:* This appears when you kill people in adventurer mode
:* So it's not about ''seeing'' somebody's death, but causing it yourself

* And the two typos you found were actually mine, feel free to correct these if you find more. I haven't seen Toady make typos ''yet''. --[[User:DarklingArcher|DarklingArcher]] ([[User talk:DarklingArcher|talk]]) 15:00, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

== *thumbsup*==
[http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Hair&curid=31316&diff=241238&oldid=241227 This] just so happens to be kind of the direction I was going anyway. Thanks. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 19:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for removing things where people confused entities with creatures. ive been seeing people on the forum confusing the two lately and like it when teh wiki sticks to what Tarn actually calls things [[Special:Contributions/35.191.3.215|35.191.3.215]]

== public/private articles ==
So, you've enjoyed a continuity around here that I lost, hoping you could give me your spin on what is "policy" in this regard. Came across the article [[Cacame Awemedinade]], and it strikes me as pure vanity, something that belongs under a Username/<article> rather than in the public space. Yes, there is a long forum thread behind it, but that, alone, doesn't seem apt justification - or is it? Or has this one just been grandfathered in, but similar posts are discouraged? Either way. [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] ([[User talk:Albedo|talk]]) 13:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
:My impression is that it's notable enough (or was at the time it was written), similar to [[Boatmurdered]]. I would personally be fine with keeping it, but would discourage creating many similar pages, particularly for newer and less historically-relevant content. (This discussion might also be more suitable for the article's talk page.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, since it was started here, we may as well finish it - or attempt to do so, at least. I concur with Lethosor's view on this. I also concur on the notion of moving any further similar matters to appropriate talk pages - this being the first time I've had to deal with something outside my pay grade like this (came on around 43.05 and quickly restricted myself to copy editing and "janitorial" work (spelling, grammar, etc)). [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 14:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
* Works for me, tho' BoatMurdered is, at least for me, on a whole diff level. I placed the discussion here (rather than there) b/c it was more a question re "general policy" and editorial SOP, rather than one applicable solely to that one article. [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] ([[User talk:Albedo|talk]]) 07:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

== Official complaints in AiV - oh dear. ==

(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&curid=19125&diff=256647&oldid=255758)...this is the first time, I must say, that my edits always being marked as minor had specifically been called out (be it known, anyone else with that issue can either be referred here, or check their own user profile settings for the relevant option - when I started here from my similar-named Bay12 account, I didn't intend to continually make public, non-hideable announcements of ''spelling and grammar corrections'' or the like.) There has, however, very recently been quite a bit of... overreach, I suppose, in that context. Continually chasing after 'ghost' run-on sentences despite somewhat overly subtly-worded orders to desist, was almost certainly particularly unwise, for which I apologise, and shall henceforth strive to not repeat (not that I'm sure that's what the complainant wants, anyway - AIUI, I'm being painted as some kind of menace to the wiki, quite needlessly IMHO 'the 'style be dammed' comment in one of my edits was actually me getting pretty annoyed with the revert-flavoured individual, as people will do with these things. Irregardless of fault, Lethosor, my sincere apologies for that... edit mini-war, I think?) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 22:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

:I see you've beaten me to starting a discussion on this. In this particular case, I do think you identified a run-on that could be improved in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256644&oldid=256643], but I think your fixes might have changed the meaning of the sentence. I'm still not sure about this particular case myself, honestly. This was close enough to an "edit war" to make me concerned, so I would suggest that you either attempt to find an alternative way of rewording sentences when this happens (as opposed to redoing simple edits that have been reverted) or taking the discussion to the talk page. For example, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256648&oldid=256645] clears up the original confusion I had about where to split the sentence in this case. Also, blank edit summaries or summaries like "fix scuff-up" or "scrub nonsense" aren't necessarily clear to other editors without more context. Something like "fixed run-on" or "clarified that the plot involves theft, not the agent" would give editors a better idea of what you were trying to fix, and hopefully make it easier to identify a better compromise if they don't think your edit was correct. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:08, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

[emptyspace] [/emptyspace]

....(There was an overly-sharp point made here by another user (honestly enough to be more than usually emotionally distressing - *shrug* part of Silverwing235's experience of high-functioning autism circa pandemic, I suppose.) about phrasing someone as a saboteur and incivility of the context, all of which, contextual shortcoming included, has since been analysed, noted, and - hindsight always being 20/20 - been adjusted for.) (Note to self, must take more care on wiki userpages.) In regards to reasons for certain portions of my user page having been deleted - I simply did not wish to deal with whatever matter or matters was/were the topic of discussion at the time IIRC, and unfortunately lost the way back, as inevitably happens with these things. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

== DFW vandalism definition VS dictionary definition, if different ==
...Just to be certain, Lethosor, the context in which 'vandalism' is usually used on this wiki versus in the dictionary...do mostly agree w/each other, right? (thought I'd take a leaf from this wiki's admin book, try and contain the winding-down of my negative press, biased as it appears to be, to somewhere more appropriate than AiV.) I mean, surely edit-wars such as the one I was recently part of, ''don't'' constitute vandalism, per se? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:58, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

:I would consider "Vandalism" a subset of "Disruptive editing", but the page is named "AIV" because most incidents of disruptive editing on this wiki ''have'' also been vandalism (I'm not intending to refer to your edits in this case). I would prefer to keep discussion in one place as much as possible, but I could move the AIV discussion to a separate "DF:" page, I suppose. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

== Bourgeoisie ==

Please refrain from making edits in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=prev&oldid=256750 this vein] (summary: “rewrite bias-esque stuff (bourgeoisie was 200-300y ahead of (non-magical) 1400s tech level, IIRC)”). I will elaborate.

# I don't know what you mean by “bias-esque,” but if the use of the word “bourgeoisie” here might serve to express some particular bias that bears discussion, please explain. Personally, I don't see it; absent an explanation, I cannot make sense of your statement.
# As for your historical note, first: it's wrong; please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie#Origins_and_rise Bourgeoisie - Origins and rise]. Second, the correct usage of a word is generally determined by its contemporary sense; the historical origin of a term doesn't generally circumscribe its use except in special contexts where historical senses might conflict with current ones. In the case of “bourgeoisie,” since the article's context is neither the French Revolution nor Marxian sociopolitical/economic theories, there is no potential for such a conflict. (Even if there ''were'', most senses of “bourgeoisie” and “bourgeois” are so closely related that it would make little difference. Also, note that the article is about a computer game in a fantasy setting with specific fictional elements borrowed from the real world ''without'' regard for historical relationships between them.)
# A side note to the previous point: As feudal structures in Europe faced challenges in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades High] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Late_Middle_Ages Late] Middle Ages, a segment of society [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_History_of_Europe_(1000_AD_%E2%80%94_Present)#Crafts_and_urban_growth variously] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_commune#Origins coalesced] which both [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization required] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_privileges impelled] the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_General_(France)#Origin transformation] of those structures. Thus, in 1789, when the Assembly [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_feudalism_in_France declared the abolition of the feudal system] in France, it expressed the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_General_of_1789#Rebellion_of_the_Parlements disposition] of an [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_of_the_realm#Third_Estate extant class] toward an [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien_R%C3%A9gime established order].
# A further side note: '''etymologically''', the word “bourgeoisie” is a late-feudal way of saying “[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/borgeis#Old_French town-dweller].” In that light, the choice of ''bourgeoisie'' seems not only correct, but ''richly descriptive and illuminating''. Whoever chose to write that sentence in the first place might even have been aware of that fact. (All of this is incidental to the point, however.)

It would be helpful if this kind of edit could be avoided, in general. To that end, notice that your summary ended with "IIRC" (regarding hypothetical information as part of your justification). But clearly, a little self-checking would have revealed to you that you ''didn't'' recall correctly. After all, why guess, especially when there is nothing actually ''wrong'' with the sentence you propose to revise? A significant proportion of your edits seem to fall into this category. Please consider exercising restraint when you feel an urge to make elective edits, especially when they would ''remove'' another author's work without resulting in something ''better''. And you should categorically '''not''' make such edits without being sure they are, in fact, correct, as you did in this case.
'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 02:25, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Silverwing235

2021-02-20T02:25:23Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Bourgeoisie */ new section

== *Wandering janitor puts down mop and bucket* ==

Yes, I know, not a very interesting placeholder.....but a beginning nonetheless. EDIT: On the other hand "If it looks wrong, it gets fixed" is my rule, which is why spot-edits will be preferred to blind-reverts around here. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:22, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

== [[DF2014:Centaur]] plural ==

In case you were wondering - your [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Centaur&diff=236185&oldid=229661 edit] didn't offend me at all, but in cases where there are multiple possible plurals, we try to stick with the one in the raws (click "show" next to the Raws box on [[DF2014:Centaur]], for example, or click on the "Raws" link itself). That's what DF uses in-game, and it's consistent with [[DF:Rule G]]. Just something to keep in mind. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

== On paragraphs ==

A paragraph is a group of closely-related sentences with a central theme. In several recent edits you have combined multiple paragraphs that do not share a central theme. In addition to being grammatically incorrect, this also makes it more difficult for players to skim the article for relevant information. For example, [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Losing&curid=31835&diff=238706&oldid=238703 this edit] attached the sentence about challenges for experienced players to a paragraph that begins "Most new players...". Please cease "fixing" short paragraphs by lumping them in with other, tangentially-related paragraphs.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:37, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Looks like there's already paragraph heading? I'll place this here, then: What's the logic/why merge [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Vampire&curid=32556&diff=254740&oldid=254722 these paragraphs] while also not merging them with the text preceding them?
(not the only paragraph merge I've seen, just a recent example) --[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 07:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

...to the extent they make sense as components of a single paragraph. Thanks for the reminder, will implement shortly. As for logic, being a part of the autistic community as I am...my 'reader's aesthetic' got irked, I suppose you could say. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

== Disruptive Editing ==

'''Warning''': Repeatedly modifying acceptable page layouts and punctuation to suit your personal taste is [[wikipedia:Disruptive_editing|disruptive]]. Further disruptive edits may result in a ban. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:40, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

:While I agree that some of the edits in question weren't necessary, others were constructive - at least the first half of [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Wood&curid=32642&diff=238873&oldid=238869&rcid=383537 wood], for example. I don't think reverting everything is a good solution, and I would be unwilling to block someone for this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:13, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

::With all due respect, this has been an ongoing problem since July. Roughly one third of my edits since then have been dealing with issues caused by this one user. I have spent a fair bit of time explaining why edits were problematic ([http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Slade&diff=prev&oldid=236259], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=prev&oldid=236737], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014_Talk:Steals_food&oldid=237634], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=prev&oldid=238709]) and saving "constructive" changes ([http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Miasma&diff=prev&oldid=236260], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Dragon&diff=prev&oldid=237541], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Diplomat&diff=next&oldid=238673], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Scholar&diff=next&oldid=238647]). However, Silverwing235 has continued to make the same types of problematic edits across more and more articles. While I still review each Silverwing235-edited article individually and only revert those which are problematic, I no longer consider it worthwhile to explain yet again why sprinkling in unnecessary commas and deleting newlines isn't acceptable, nor do I salvage minor "constructive" bits that happen to be included with disruptive edits. [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Magma_glass_furnace&curid=31863&diff=238911&oldid=238863 This] is a fine example: is changing the capitalization of "item hauler" worth burying information about architectural value at the end of a paragraph about sand gathering? No.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 16:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. It's pretty much the standard I ''attempt'' to hold myself to when editing around here as a rule, Lethosor - and also explains why some edits were marked as minor, in an attempt to '''avoid''' being blind-reverted like this, w/out apparent consideration of merit. You should both expect forum PM's about this in due course. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Resurrecting an old topic here: while I admit I haven't been monitoring the situation here very much, I've noticed that I don't always agree with some edits you make. Some are good, and I don't have opinions on some others, but some are (in my opinion) not correct - for example, the one that was reverted [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Creature_token&diff=prev&oldid=241753 here]. I don't have a particularly good policy in mind, and I don't think ''everything'' you do should be reverted by any means (so don't feel discouraged from fixing things), but I'd like to suggest that you pay closer attention to which edits are being reverted and why. Hopefully that will cut down on some editing disagreements I've seen in the recent changes list. I really don't want to make any decisions on the matter, but I think that making specific types of edits that tend to be reverted isn't productive for anyone involved (noting that this doesn't apply to a majority of your changes that I've seen, in my opinion). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Again: I don't want to have to block you, or anything like that, but [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247303&oldid=247296 this sort of edit] is not okay. If you have a disagreement with another editor, take it up with them; don't engage in edit wars, particularly not with edit summaries like that. (Note that I have not been very active as of recently, so I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the entire situation to do anything yet - maybe that was just one of a handful of problematic edits. [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247304 This one] is definitely okay, for instance. But please try to avoid the sorts of edits that are apparently getting reverted regularly.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

From AIV, my thoughts on your four edits that were reverted by Loci today:
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Meat_industry&diff=prev&oldid=247436]: I think the revert was appropriate - although the original edit wasn't malicious, the section title that you removed was useful for readability, and the section seems to be entirely about wild animals. Perhaps nesting this section under "Breeding" would have been better. The comment about mods also wasn't really necessary - you can mod pretty much anything in DF, and listing all the possibilities everywhere would just clutter things up.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Equipment&diff=prev&oldid=247438]: the second "each" is technically necessary, since each marksdwarf ''and'' each hunter needs a quiver. Granted, I think it's clear what the sentence means without it, but it shouldn't have been removed. Also, "flimflammery" in the edit summary is not helpful - in general, your edit summaries could stand to be shorter and clearer about what you're actually changing, which might help avoid some annoyances when others look over them.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=247437&oldid=247435] - I think both the previous version and yours were confusing, so I tried to reword it myself. (Basically, you're right that dwarves can't view bodies that fell into magma, but they ''can'' view bodies that are in stockpiles, so saying that viewing bodies only applied to bodies left on the ground wasn't right.) A [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=236737&oldid=236421 very similar edit] that you made had also been reverted, though. I'm suspecting that you just forgot about that, since it was so long ago, but in general, reintroducing changes that have already been reverted could be considered edit warring, which is not something I want to deal with.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Armor&diff=prev&oldid=247439]: the core disagreement seems to be around singular "they" (mentioned in another section on your talk page). In my book, this is a personal preference. Since your changes have led to some disagreements, I'm going to ask you to avoid changing any existing content related to singular "they" (this applies to things that use it and things that don't). This applies to other users too. I think this is the simplest way to avoid behavior that could be considered edit warring.
—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

And Silverwing235 makes answer:

1: ''"Perhaps nesting this section under "Breeding" would have been better."'' Something along those lines was what I was trying to do, and thought I had done, before 'Loci, Vandalfinder Mod' came along with their reverts (Not that I want anyone to take on that role with regards to me in particular, it's rather annoying - please do assume apologies when necessary).

2: ''"Also, "flimflammery" in the edit summary is not helpful"'' IOW, refrain from scribbling in the margins, or mental ''ngathsesh'', as the dwarves would have it, yeah, got it. One can only try, anyway.

3 & 4: Not much to say here, other than: thanks for the assist and I '''wholeheartedly agree''' with you about the personal preference thing? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:54, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

== Singular they ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Need&curid=35157&diff=239015&oldid=239014 this edit]:

General use of "they" as an ungendered singular pronoun is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Acceptability_and_prescriptive_guidance controversial]. If you feel compelled to remove the gendered pronoun, common advice is to reword the sentence to avoid the appearance of pronoun disagreement. In this case:

: The better focused a dwarf is, the swifter she finishes all her tasks.

could be rewritten as:

: The better focused your dwarves are, the swifter they finish their tasks.

: A focused dwarf finishes tasks more swiftly.

It is generally easy to alter the wording, and always better than swapping one acceptable-yet-problematic form for a different acceptable-yet-problematic form that you happen to prefer.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 00:51, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

== Just in case people are wondering why.... ==

...such things as talk pages with topic 'Verification page/verification' and 'ignore this' are popping up, the answer should be obvious if it wasn't already - preparation. That, and that my particular 'style' leads me to not be a fan of unnecessary redlinks - something like Occam's Razor, really. :D --[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 10:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== Grammar ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=v0.31:Temple&curid=13741&diff=239647&oldid=236295 this edit]:

That's not a "sentence fragment"; it's an [[wikipedia:appositive|appositive]], a restatement of a noun for clarification.

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Siege&diff=prev&oldid=239648 this edit]:

Adverbs are comma-offset when they apply to the sentence as a whole, not the active verb. Since "usually" is plausibly modifying "are", the added comma is incorrect.

Incidentally, these are good examples why inserting every possible comma is problematic. Commas can change the meaning of a sentence, and that possibility makes it more difficult to parse comma-saturated sentences.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== Egg production editing shenanigans ==

I have a deep feeling that guy is right, about the kobolds at least. I shouldn't have removed that much stuff from the original table anyway. Yes, I plan on reverting that, this time also adding giant animals & animal people, max age column, and sorting out the rest in a coherent way, just give me some time. The original edit took me nearly 2 hours. [[User:DarklingArcher|DarklingArcher]] ([[User talk:DarklingArcher|talk]]) 14:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

== Let's not stress about [[DF2014:Stress]] ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Stress&curid=33889&diff=240383&oldid=240376 this edit]

* ''talking with the spouse''
:* In my opinion, "the" means here that the person in question is talking with his/her spouse (not just with any spouse), so it may be justified.

* ''caught in a freakish weather''
:* While I admit this is wrong ("weather" is uncountable), I would keep it the original way as it is consistent with [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Community Portal|Rule G]] and doesn't seem ''that'' jarring to me.

* ''grim satisfaction at somebody's death''
:* This appears when you kill people in adventurer mode
:* So it's not about ''seeing'' somebody's death, but causing it yourself

* And the two typos you found were actually mine, feel free to correct these if you find more. I haven't seen Toady make typos ''yet''. --[[User:DarklingArcher|DarklingArcher]] ([[User talk:DarklingArcher|talk]]) 15:00, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

== *thumbsup*==
[http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Hair&curid=31316&diff=241238&oldid=241227 This] just so happens to be kind of the direction I was going anyway. Thanks. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 19:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for removing things where people confused entities with creatures. ive been seeing people on the forum confusing the two lately and like it when teh wiki sticks to what Tarn actually calls things [[Special:Contributions/35.191.3.215|35.191.3.215]]

== public/private articles ==
So, you've enjoyed a continuity around here that I lost, hoping you could give me your spin on what is "policy" in this regard. Came across the article [[Cacame Awemedinade]], and it strikes me as pure vanity, something that belongs under a Username/<article> rather than in the public space. Yes, there is a long forum thread behind it, but that, alone, doesn't seem apt justification - or is it? Or has this one just been grandfathered in, but similar posts are discouraged? Either way. [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] ([[User talk:Albedo|talk]]) 13:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
:My impression is that it's notable enough (or was at the time it was written), similar to [[Boatmurdered]]. I would personally be fine with keeping it, but would discourage creating many similar pages, particularly for newer and less historically-relevant content. (This discussion might also be more suitable for the article's talk page.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, since it was started here, we may as well finish it - or attempt to do so, at least. I concur with Lethosor's view on this. I also concur on the notion of moving any further similar matters to appropriate talk pages - this being the first time I've had to deal with something outside my pay grade like this (came on around 43.05 and quickly restricted myself to copy editing and "janitorial" work (spelling, grammar, etc)). [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 14:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
* Works for me, tho' BoatMurdered is, at least for me, on a whole diff level. I placed the discussion here (rather than there) b/c it was more a question re "general policy" and editorial SOP, rather than one applicable solely to that one article. [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] ([[User talk:Albedo|talk]]) 07:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

== Official complaints in AiV - oh dear. ==

(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&curid=19125&diff=256647&oldid=255758)...this is the first time, I must say, that my edits always being marked as minor had specifically been called out (be it known, anyone else with that issue can either be referred here, or check their own user profile settings for the relevant option - when I started here from my similar-named Bay12 account, I didn't intend to continually make public, non-hideable announcements of ''spelling and grammar corrections'' or the like.) There has, however, very recently been quite a bit of... overreach, I suppose, in that context. Continually chasing after 'ghost' run-on sentences despite somewhat overly subtly-worded orders to desist, was almost certainly particularly unwise, for which I apologise, and shall henceforth strive to not repeat (not that I'm sure that's what the complainant wants, anyway - AIUI, I'm being painted as some kind of menace to the wiki, quite needlessly IMHO 'the 'style be dammed' comment in one of my edits was actually me getting pretty annoyed with the revert-flavoured individual, as people will do with these things. Irregardless of fault, Lethosor, my sincere apologies for that... edit mini-war, I think?) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 22:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

:I see you've beaten me to starting a discussion on this. In this particular case, I do think you identified a run-on that could be improved in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256644&oldid=256643], but I think your fixes might have changed the meaning of the sentence. I'm still not sure about this particular case myself, honestly. This was close enough to an "edit war" to make me concerned, so I would suggest that you either attempt to find an alternative way of rewording sentences when this happens (as opposed to redoing simple edits that have been reverted) or taking the discussion to the talk page. For example, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256648&oldid=256645] clears up the original confusion I had about where to split the sentence in this case. Also, blank edit summaries or summaries like "fix scuff-up" or "scrub nonsense" aren't necessarily clear to other editors without more context. Something like "fixed run-on" or "clarified that the plot involves theft, not the agent" would give editors a better idea of what you were trying to fix, and hopefully make it easier to identify a better compromise if they don't think your edit was correct. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:08, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

[emptyspace] [/emptyspace]

....(There was an overly-sharp point made here by another user (honestly enough to be more than usually emotionally distressing - *shrug* part of Silverwing235's experience of high-functioning autism circa pandemic, I suppose.) about phrasing someone as a saboteur and incivility of the context, all of which, contextual shortcoming included, has since been analysed, noted, and - hindsight always being 20/20 - been adjusted for.) (Note to self, must take more care on wiki userpages.) In regards to reasons for certain portions of my user page having been deleted - I simply did not wish to deal with whatever matter or matters was/were the topic of discussion at the time IIRC, and unfortunately lost the way back, as inevitably happens with these things. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

== DFW vandalism definition VS dictionary definition, if different ==
...Just to be certain, Lethosor, the context in which 'vandalism' is usually used on this wiki versus in the dictionary...do mostly agree w/each other, right? (thought I'd take a leaf from this wiki's admin book, try and contain the winding-down of my negative press, biased as it appears to be, to somewhere more appropriate than AiV.) I mean, surely edit-wars such as the one I was recently part of, ''don't'' constitute vandalism, per se? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:58, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

:I would consider "Vandalism" a subset of "Disruptive editing", but the page is named "AIV" because most incidents of disruptive editing on this wiki ''have'' also been vandalism (I'm not intending to refer to your edits in this case). I would prefer to keep discussion in one place as much as possible, but I could move the AIV discussion to a separate "DF:" page, I suppose. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

== Bourgeoisie ==

Please refrain from making edits in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Town&diff=prev&oldid=256750 this vein] (summary: “rewrite bias-esque stuff (bourgeoisie was 200-300y ahead of (non-magical) 1400s tech level, IIRC)”). I will elaborate.

# I don't know what you mean by “bias-esque,” but if the use of the word “bourgeoisie” here might serve to express some particular bias that bears discussion, please explain. Personally, I don't see it; absent an explanation, I cannot make sense of your statement.
# As for your historical note, first: it's wrong; please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie#Origins_and_rise Bourgeoisie - Origins and rise]. Second, the correct usage of a word is generally determined by its contemporary sense; the historical origin of a term doesn't generally circumscribe its use except in special contexts where historical senses might conflict with current ones. In the case of “bourgeoisie,” since the article's context is neither the French Revolution nor Marxian sociopolitical/economic theories, there is no potential for such a conflict. (Even if there ''were'', most senses of “bourgeoisie” and “bourgeois” are so closely related that it would make little difference. Also, note that the article is about a computer game in a fantasy setting with specific fictional elements borrowed from the real world ''without'' regard for historical relationships between them.)
# A side note to the previous point: As feudal structures in Europe faced challenges in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades High] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Late_Middle_Ages Late] Middle Ages, a segment of society [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_History_of_Europe_(1000_AD_%E2%80%94_Present)#Crafts_and_urban_growth variously] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_commune#Origins coalesced] which both [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization required] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_privileges impelled] the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_General_(France)#Origin transformation] of those structures. Thus, in 1789, when the Assembly [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_feudalism_in_France declared the abolition of the feudal system] in France, it expressed the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_General_of_1789#Rebellion_of_the_Parlements disposition] of an [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_of_the_realm#Third_Estate extant class] toward an [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien_R%C3%A9gime established order].
# A further side note: '''etymologically''', the word “bourgeoisie” is a late-feudal way of saying “[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/borgeis#Old_French town-dweller].” In that light, the choice of ''bourgeoisie'' seems not only correct, but ''richly descriptive and illuminating''. Whoever chose to write that sentence in the first place might even have been aware of that fact. (All of this is incidental to the point, however.)

It would be helpful if this kind of edit could be avoided, in general. To that end, notice that your summary ended with "IIRC" (regarding hypothetical information as part of your justification). But clearly, a little self-checking would have revealed to you that you ''didn't'' recall correctly. After all, why guess, especially when there is nothing actually ''wrong'' with the sentence you propose to revise? A significant proportion of your edits seem to fall into this category. Please consider exercising restraint when you feel an urge to make elective edits, especially when they would ''remove'' another author's work without resulting in something ''better''. And you should categorically '''not''' make such edits without being sure they are, in fact, correct, as you did in this case.

Mayor

2021-02-19T21:48:36Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Mayoral elections */ Grammar fix: restored the grammatical [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Mayor&diff=249535&oldid=249525 prior version] of opening sentences of this section.

{{Quality|Superior|00:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC)}}
{{Noble
| noble= Mayor
| office= Decent Office
| quarters= Decent Quarters
| dining= Decent Dining Room
| chests=2
| cabinets=1
| racks=1
| stands=1
| mandates=1
| demands=2
| arrival=
* 50 population
* Elected
| function=
* Meet with foreign dignitaries
* Talk with unhappy citizens
}}
{{av}}[[Image:Goblin_slaying_Mayor.png‎|thumb|left|A dwarven mayor conducting a "meeting" with some goblin "liaisons".]]
The '''mayor''' is a [[noble]] whose job it is to speak with unhappy citizens, and (until a [[baron]] is appointed) entertain foreign [[diplomat]]s. They are automatically elected from the most social [[dwarf]], most likely the [[expedition leader]], once the population reaches 50. A new mayor may be elected from time to time as your dwarves' social skills change.

== Mayoral nobility ==

A mayor or expedition leader is required to appoint other nobles. Should your leader suffer an [[unfortunate accident]], you will have to wait for a new leader to be elected before appointing nobles.

Mayors are classy individuals, who require certain living standards in their rooms and furniture. They may [[demand]] certain types of furniture in their rooms and will get unhappy if you don't comply. They can [[mandate]] the production of certain goods, and receive a happy thought if you comply. If the mandated items are not produced in time, the mayor will receive an unhappy thought and will order the [[Justice|punishment]] of whoever they consider responsible. Likewise, they can prohibit the export of certain goods instead of mandating their construction, resulting in dwarves being punished for trade violations.

Mayors are not replaced by [[baron]]s, [[duke]]s, [[count]]s or [[monarch]]s; if a citizen of your fortress is promoted to one of these positions, the mayor will still issue mandates and require quarters.

== Mayoral elections ==

Mayors are elected for one year. Elections take place at exactly 4:00 PM on the 17th day of summer (specifically, 2000 season-ticks after the beginning of the season). If you don't have a mayor, then the election will happen at the beginning of ''every season'', rather than just summer.

When an election happens, it's usually the dwarf with the highest social skills who gets elected. Since [[children]] have nothing to do but socialize, they gain lots of social skills which carry over when a child becomes an adult at age 12. Thus, it's not unusual for a 12-year-old to become mayor. Their chief competitors are [[vampire]]s (who also tend to have high social skills), tamed [[gremlin]]s, and other non-working citizens of your fortress, since they cannot be put to work either. The mayor doesn't actually need to be a dwarf, any [[Citizenship|citizen]] can be elected.

== Miscellaneous ==

Curiously, a mayor is able to appoint replacements for elected positions, including his own.{{bug|2512}} If your mayor likes something unpleasant like [[Finished goods|puzzleboxes]], you can simply have him appoint his own replacement. This also creates a historical event, which makes for good [[statue]]s of dwarves rejecting the old mayor with which to brighten up the new mayor's office. Note that the ex-mayor may periodically win election back into the mayorship.



{{gamedata| [POSITION:MAYOR]
[NAME:mayor:mayors]
[SITE]
[NUMBER:1]
[RESPONSIBILITY:MEET_WORKERS]
[RESPONSIBILITY:RECEIVE_DIPLOMATS]
[RESPONSIBILITY:MILITARY_GOALS]
[REQUIRES_POPULATION:50]
[RULES_FROM_LOCATION]
[ELECTED]
[PRECEDENCE:60]
[FLASHES]
[BRAG_ON_KILL]
[CHAT_WORTHY]
[DO_NOT_CULL]
[KILL_QUEST]
[COLOR:5:0:0]
[ACCOUNT_EXEMPT]
[DUTY_BOUND]
[DEMAND_MAX:2]
[MANDATE_MAX:1]
[REQUIRED_BOXES:2]
[REQUIRED_CABINETS:1]
[REQUIRED_RACKS:1]
[REQUIRED_STANDS:1]
[REQUIRED_OFFICE:500]
[REQUIRED_BEDROOM:500]
[REQUIRED_DINING:500]}}
{{Nobles}}
{{Category|Elected Nobles}}

Mayor

2021-02-19T21:42:57Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Eliminated ambiguity.

{{Quality|Superior|00:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC)}}
{{Noble
| noble= Mayor
| office= Decent Office
| quarters= Decent Quarters
| dining= Decent Dining Room
| chests=2
| cabinets=1
| racks=1
| stands=1
| mandates=1
| demands=2
| arrival=
* 50 population
* Elected
| function=
* Meet with foreign dignitaries
* Talk with unhappy citizens
}}
{{av}}[[Image:Goblin_slaying_Mayor.png‎|thumb|left|A dwarven mayor conducting a "meeting" with some goblin "liaisons".]]
The '''mayor''' is a [[noble]] whose job it is to speak with unhappy citizens, and (until a [[baron]] is appointed) entertain foreign [[diplomat]]s. They are automatically elected from the most social [[dwarf]], most likely the [[expedition leader]], once the population reaches 50. A new mayor may be elected from time to time as your dwarves' social skills change.

== Mayoral nobility ==

A mayor or expedition leader is required to appoint other nobles. Should your leader suffer an [[unfortunate accident]], you will have to wait for a new leader to be elected before appointing nobles.

Mayors are classy individuals, who require certain living standards in their rooms and furniture. They may [[demand]] certain types of furniture in their rooms and will get unhappy if you don't comply. They can [[mandate]] the production of certain goods, and receive a happy thought if you comply. If the mandated items are not produced in time, the mayor will receive an unhappy thought and will order the [[Justice|punishment]] of whoever they consider responsible. Likewise, they can prohibit the export of certain goods instead of mandating their construction, resulting in dwarves being punished for trade violations.

Mayors are not replaced by [[baron]]s, [[duke]]s, [[count]]s or [[monarch]]s; if a citizen of your fortress is promoted to one of these positions, the mayor will still issue mandates and require quarters.

== Mayoral elections ==

Mayors are elected for one year, elections taking place at exactly 4:00 PM on the 17th day of summer (specifically, 2000 season-ticks after the beginning of the season). If you don't have a mayor, then the election will happen at the beginning of ''every season'', rather than just summer.

When an election happens, it's usually the dwarf with the highest social skills who gets elected. Since [[children]] have nothing to do but socialize, they gain lots of social skills which carry over when a child becomes an adult at age 12. Thus, it's not unusual for a 12-year-old to become mayor. Their chief competitors are [[vampire]]s (who also tend to have high social skills), tamed [[gremlin]]s, and other non-working citizens of your fortress, since they cannot be put to work either. The mayor doesn't actually need to be a dwarf, any [[Citizenship|citizen]] can be elected.

== Miscellaneous ==

Curiously, a mayor is able to appoint replacements for elected positions, including his own.{{bug|2512}} If your mayor likes something unpleasant like [[Finished goods|puzzleboxes]], you can simply have him appoint his own replacement. This also creates a historical event, which makes for good [[statue]]s of dwarves rejecting the old mayor with which to brighten up the new mayor's office. Note that the ex-mayor may periodically win election back into the mayorship.



{{gamedata| [POSITION:MAYOR]
[NAME:mayor:mayors]
[SITE]
[NUMBER:1]
[RESPONSIBILITY:MEET_WORKERS]
[RESPONSIBILITY:RECEIVE_DIPLOMATS]
[RESPONSIBILITY:MILITARY_GOALS]
[REQUIRES_POPULATION:50]
[RULES_FROM_LOCATION]
[ELECTED]
[PRECEDENCE:60]
[FLASHES]
[BRAG_ON_KILL]
[CHAT_WORTHY]
[DO_NOT_CULL]
[KILL_QUEST]
[COLOR:5:0:0]
[ACCOUNT_EXEMPT]
[DUTY_BOUND]
[DEMAND_MAX:2]
[MANDATE_MAX:1]
[REQUIRED_BOXES:2]
[REQUIRED_CABINETS:1]
[REQUIRED_RACKS:1]
[REQUIRED_STANDS:1]
[REQUIRED_OFFICE:500]
[REQUIRED_BEDROOM:500]
[REQUIRED_DINING:500]}}
{{Nobles}}
{{Category|Elected Nobles}}

Town

2021-02-19T21:29:10Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Undo revision 256750 by Silverwing235 (talk). 1. Frivolous justification. 2. See wikipedia

{{Quality|Exceptional|20:51, 22 July 2017 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
:''"Town" may also refer to a fortress that has reached a [[fortress#Nomenclature|certain population level]].''

[[File:Town_map_43.png|thumb|300px|A map of a well developed town, exported from legends mode. 
Places of interest: 
█ Fortifications and central keep 
█ Warehouse 
█ Tavern 
█ Temple 
█ Library 
█ Well]]

A '''town''' is a large [[site]] founded and inhabited by [[human]]s and generally various other creatures. The population and size can be determined by the map symbol representing it; from least to most populous: {{Raw Tile|+|7:0}}, {{Raw Tile|*|7:0}}, {{Raw Tile|#|7:0}}, and {{Raw Tile|☼|7:1}}. All towns start out from [[hamlet]]s, which immediately form into towns under the right circumstances, during worldgen. [[Road]]s link towns between other nearby towns and dwarven [[fortress]]es, as well as sites conquered by humans.

[[Adventure mode|Adventurers]] spend much quality time in towns - they can come to trade, speak, or entertain the townspeople, and occasionally to slay those who have invited their wrath. [[Tavern]]s in towns are a popular destination for many adventurers; they are the only sources of alcohol in human settlements and provide excellent entertainment, which includes [[performance]]s and the occasional drunken brawl. Other people of interest include:

* [[mercenary|mercenaries]], who will gather at [[tavern]]s, and make for great traveling companions.
* [[criminal]]s, who may be the target of quests
* [[priest]]s and [[monk]]s, [[guild|craftsmen]], and [[counting house|merchants]], who may have traveled the world, and may be embroiled in all sorts of [[intrigue]].

== Keep ==
At the heart of a town is a walled stronghold, garrisoned by many soldiers. Inside of the keep can be found a lord or lady, other high nobility, and men-at-arms willing to follow you unto death. If the town is the civ's seat of power, then the law-maker will also reside here. Below almost every keep is a [[dungeon]].

Since .47.01, keeps have had their households expanded, and most human keeps will have a variety of members, some familiar from fort mode, like doctors and executioners, some related to the expanded city, like judges, fire commissioners and sewer administrators, and some just plain household, like the housekeepers and chefs. The vast majority of these don't have interesting game mechanics associated with them tied to their positions, but many of them are caught up in some [[intrigue|scheme]].

== The town proper ==
[[File:TownSquare2.jpg|thumb|300px|Typical town thoroughfare]]

Outside of the keep is the realm of the bourgeoisie. Commuters and travelers walk among the densely-packed houses and shops in narrow streets. Stray domesticated animals roam the muddy alleyways and pastures. Vast shopping districts are major trade centers. Other buildings include warehouses (which can be ransacked without repercussion) and wells. Common structures include [[tavern]]s and [[temple]]s. [[Library|Libraries]] are very rare.

Below is a list of different shops and markets found in a town. Most towns do not have every single retail good available, and adventurers may have to travel to a different town in order to browse wares of a particular type. The shops that are "common" are common because only animal products (meat, bone, leather) and farm products (cloth and food) are produced in any significant numbers. Stone, wood, and metal are all extremely rare materials in towns, and because of this, few industries based upon these materials will spring up. An exception is the leather goods shop, which is rare compared to other leather shops.

Common shops:
* {{Raw Tile|µ|2:6:1}} General imports
* {{Raw Tile|%|2:6:1}} Food imports
* {{Raw Tile|[|2:6:1}} Clothing imports
* {{Raw Tile|[|7:6:1}} Woven clothing shop
* {{Raw Tile|º|6:6:1}} Cloth shop
* {{Raw Tile|[|6:6:1}} Leather clothing shop
* {{Raw Tile|ß|6:6:1}} Leather shop
* {{Raw Tile|Å|7:6:1}} Bone carver's shop

Rare shops:
* {{Raw Tile|╤|6:6:1}} Carpenter's shop
* {{Raw Tile|╤|7:6:1}} Stone furniture shop
* {{Raw Tile|╤|0:6:0}} Metal furniture shop
* {{Raw Tile|♦|2:6:1}} Gem cutter's shop
* {{Raw Tile|[|0:6:0}} Armorsmith's shop
* {{Raw Tile|/|6:6:1}} Bowyer's shop
* {{Raw Tile|/|0:6:0}} Weaponsmith's shop
* {{Raw Tile|Å|6:6:1}} Leather goods shop
* {{Raw Tile|Å|0:6:0}} Metal craft shop

In a market, one can find:
* Imported goods
* Imported food
* Imported clothing
* [[Meat]]
* Fruit and vegetables
* [[Cheese]]
* Processed goods

== Subterranea ==
[[Image:dungoen.jpg|300px|thumb|Subterranean layout from an early development screenshot on the DF development blog]]

Below a town are several subterranean structures: [[dungeon]]s, [[catacombs]], and [[sewer]]s. All three can be present at once, and frequently connect and overlap each other. [[Tomb]]s may also be present alongside catacombs. Criminals, outcasts of society and various subterranean creatures hide in the dark passages. They are common destinations for those looking to finish a [[quest]], gain reputation, or search for valuable loot.

Dungeons reside below the keep, while catacombs reside below temples. Both buildings are almost always present - sewers, on the other hand, can only be found in more developed towns. The presence of a sewer in a town can be confirmed by the presence of [[floor grate]]s in the middle of streets. They are accessible via small and elusive entrances above-ground, or by diving below nearby waterways.

== Destroyed or abandoned towns ==
:''Further information: [[Ruin]]''
[[File:Destroyed.jpg|thumb|center|1000px|Legend's entry about a town being sacked]]

In time, whether by war, beasts, a genocidal adventurer, or some other disaster, towns will be brought to ruin. Ruined towns are typically desolate wastelands of abandoned and destroyed buildings and structures. Shops and markets are typically bare, but occasionally some goods can still be left for you to steal. [[Bandit]]s and criminals may still lurk in the streets, and some may even make the ruins their home, if some supernatural creature or monster hasn't made themselves cozy already.

== Gallery ==
<gallery>
File:Growlgrowlgrowlgrowl.jpg|Town on zoomed-in travel map
File:Spidergroul.jpg|Town on regular travel map
File:Destroyedtown2.jpg|Ruins of a town before the gates of an abandoned keep
</gallery>

{{Translation
| dwarven = amost
| elvish = irive
| goblin = kabu
| human = ricgo
}}

{{world}}

{{Category|Adventurer mode}}

Cave

2021-02-19T19:00:10Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Simplified a sentence.

{{Quality|Superior|01:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
:''Not to be confused with [[Cavern]]s.''

[[File:Cave_entrance.png|thumb|upright|A cave entrance.]]
[[File:Cave_inside.png|thumb|upright|Inside of a cave.]]

A '''cave''' is a small, natural [[site]]. It features a large [[rock]] mound several [[z-level]]s high with a downward passage beginning anywhere along the side of the mound. The passage most often leads deep down into a [[cavern]]. Rarely, a cave may lack any passage or even an entrance into the mound.

Most caves have a natural population of subterranean animals, such as [[cave swallow]]s and [[bat]]s. Certain [[megabeast]]s, [[semi-megabeast]]s and [[night creature]]s will settle in caves. If a cave is inhabited by creatures fond of [[Steals items|stealing items]] from nearby sites, their hoard will be littered all over the site. [[Dragon]]s are known to hoard jewelry; [[ettin]]s and [[giant]]s hoard [[jewelry]], [[food]], and [[alcohol]].

Civilized races can also settle in an unoccupied cave. Caves are the starting site of [[kobold]]s. Kobold caves have an extended underground network of tunnels and chambers that are connected to the natural passageway. Like other sites, caves can be attacked by invaders or monsters. They are one of the few known sites that players can [[embark]] on without third-party tools.

== Generation ==

The site encompasses 3×3 embark [[tile]]s, although the cave mound itself only takes up one embark tile, or 48×48 tiles. The mound can be located in any of the embark tiles, so it is not always found at the center of the site.

There are two ways caves can generate: mountain caves occur adjacent to a [[mountain]] region tile, while non-mountain caves occur in any land biome other than mountains. The number of caves per world is determined by the parameters {{DFtext|Number of Mountain Caves}} and {{DFtext|Number of Non-Mountain Caves}}. Both parameters can be configured in [[advanced world generation]].

On the world map, caves are displayed as {{Raw Tile|•|0:0:1}}. By default, however, they are hidden until discovered by an [[Adventurer_mode|adventurer]]. In advanced world gen, setting the option {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} to {{DFtext|Yes}} will make caves visible from the start.

Inside the cave, there are two ramps on each z-level, one going up and one going down. The ramps make a path that goes from the surface to the underground. The pathway is not always a straight line; on some z-levels, the passage can spread out into a small gallery.

The distribution of items (including [[artifact]]s) are scattered within the site borders, from the surface to any subterranean levels reachable by foot, i.e., no loot will be found beyond a rampless drop or a submerged passage, even if the hoard's owner is a flying or amphibious creature.

=== Kobold cave ===

A cave inhabited by skulking thieves has an additional complex network of subterranean passages that link from a single entryway to the natural passage of the cave mound. The underground network is located close to the surface and above the caverns; sometimes it is located just one z-level below the ground. [[Kobold]]s, poisonous critters, and stolen treasure can be found here.

It is easy to get lost in the network of tunnels which are one tile wide and wind in every direction. Certain sections use both ramps and stairs to go up and down several z-levels. Along the path are occasional 3×3 guard posts with armed kobolds. Hidden [[weapon trap]]s are very frequent and pose danger. Certain segments and corners are holed with tiny pits which have even more traps at the bottom. A unique feature of this site is that each weapon trap is coated with a [[syndrome]]-inducing venom that can range from bumblebee venom, to rattlesnake venom, to the dangerously lethal venom of the [[giant cave spider]]. If a trap hits successfully, the coated weapon will inject the venom into the intruder. Since fast travel or rest is generally not possible in a cave, you will most likely be forced to endure (or succumb) to the venom's effects.

The network of passageways connects five main rooms: a trophy room, a large pit room for tamed animals, a room for [[egg]]s, a room filled with corpses, and the living chambers. Stolen artifacts are piled with other stolen items in the trophy room. The living chambers are irregular cavities that contain many hostile kobolds. The pit room for animals is the largest room, spanning several z-levels deep in gradual slopes, poked with 3×3 enclosures on the sides. This room can include any poisonous non-mammal creatures.

According to [[legends]], kobolds may construct a [[market]] in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structure resembling a market in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.

<gallery>
File:Kobold cave entrance.png|Kobold cave entrance. Several levels needed to be traversed down from the natural cave mouth to reach this point.
File:Kobold cave passage.png|First tunnel portion
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z3).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z2).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z1).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z0).png|Second tunnel portion (bottom)
File:Kobold cave pit (z4).png|Pit room (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave pit (z3).png|Pit room (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave pit (z2).png|Pit room (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave pit (z1).png|Pit room (z-level -3)
File:Kobold cave pit (z0).png|Pit room (z-level -4)
File:Kobold cave living.png|Living chambers (the "l" and "g" are [[animal people]])
File:Kobold cave trophy.png|Trophy room
File:Kobold cave eggs.png|Room with eggs
File:Kobold cave corpses.png|Room with corpses
</gallery>

== Dwarf fortress mode ==

[[File:Cave embark screen.png|thumb|A cave on the embark selection map screen]]

In [[dwarf fortress mode]], you can choose whether or not to make caves visible on the [[embark]] screen when you [[World generation|design]] the world you will play in. The default option for {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} is set to {{DFtext|No}}. If set to yes, caves will appear on the map so that they may be sought out or avoided as desired. Caves have the odd feature that the [[stone]] they are made of doesn't match the material left after it is dug out; for example, a rock wall will leave behind a [[clay]] floor.

== Adventurer mode ==

Caves can sometimes be found by repeatedly asking an NPC about the surroundings. They are the only way of entering the underground in [[adventurer mode]] besides visiting a dwarven [[fortress]] which has an entrance to a cavern; if NPCs in one region don't tell you about any caves, move to another region and try again.

{{Translation
| dwarven = äs
| elvish = garetho
| goblin = omo
| human = ngethac
}}

{{World}}

{{Category|Fortress mode}}
{{Category|Adventurer mode}}

Cave

2021-02-19T18:42:08Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Undo revision 256758 by Silverwing235 (talk). The two original sentences were grammatical; the revised version is *not*.

{{Quality|Superior|01:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)}}
{{av}}
:''Not to be confused with [[Cavern]]s.''

[[File:Cave_entrance.png|thumb|upright|A cave entrance.]]
[[File:Cave_inside.png|thumb|upright|Inside of a cave.]]

A '''cave''' is a small, natural [[site]]. It features a large [[rock]] mound several [[z-level]]s high with a downward passage beginning anywhere along the side of the mound. The passage most often leads deep down into a [[cavern]]. Rarely, a cave may lack any passage or even an entrance into the mound.

Most caves have a natural population of subterranean animals, such as [[cave swallow]]s and [[bat]]s. Certain [[megabeast]]s, [[semi-megabeast]]s and [[night creature]]s will settle in caves. If a cave is inhabited by creatures fond of [[Steals items|stealing items]] from nearby sites, their hoard will be littered all over the site. [[Dragon]]s are known to hoard jewelry; [[ettin]]s and [[giant]]s hoard [[jewelry]], [[food]], and [[alcohol]].

Civilized races can also settle in an unoccupied cave. Caves are the starting site of [[kobold]]s. Kobold caves have an extended underground network of tunnels and chambers that are connected to the natural passageway. Like other sites, caves can be attacked by invaders or monsters. They are one of the few known sites that players can [[embark]] on without third-party tools.

== Generation ==

The site encompasses 3×3 embark [[tile]]s, although the cave mound itself only takes up one embark tile, or 48×48 tiles. The mound can be located in any of the embark tiles, so it is not always found at the center of the site.

There are two ways caves can generate: mountain caves occur adjacent to a [[mountain]] region tile, while non-mountain caves occur in any land biome other than mountains. The number of caves per world is determined by the parameters {{DFtext|Number of Mountain Caves}} and {{DFtext|Number of Non-Mountain Caves}}. Both parameters can be configured in [[advanced world generation]].

Caves are displayed on the world map as {{Raw Tile|•|0:0:1}}. Caves are hidden on the map by the default world settings, so they are not visible until they are discovered by adventurers. In advanced world gen, setting the option {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} to {{DFtext|Yes}} will make caves visible from the start.

Inside the cave, there are two ramps on each z-level, one going up and one going down. The ramps make a path that goes from the surface to the underground. The pathway is not always a straight line; on some z-levels, the passage can spread out into a small gallery.

The distribution of items (including [[artifact]]s) are scattered within the site borders, from the surface to any subterranean levels reachable by foot, i.e., no loot will be found beyond a rampless drop or a submerged passage, even if the hoard's owner is a flying or amphibious creature.

=== Kobold cave ===

A cave inhabited by skulking thieves has an additional complex network of subterranean passages that link from a single entryway to the natural passage of the cave mound. The underground network is located close to the surface and above the caverns; sometimes it is located just one z-level below the ground. [[Kobold]]s, poisonous critters, and stolen treasure can be found here.

It is easy to get lost in the network of tunnels which are one tile wide and wind in every direction. Certain sections use both ramps and stairs to go up and down several z-levels. Along the path are occasional 3×3 guard posts with armed kobolds. Hidden [[weapon trap]]s are very frequent and pose danger. Certain segments and corners are holed with tiny pits which have even more traps at the bottom. A unique feature of this site is that each weapon trap is coated with a [[syndrome]]-inducing venom that can range from bumblebee venom, to rattlesnake venom, to the dangerously lethal venom of the [[giant cave spider]]. If a trap hits successfully, the coated weapon will inject the venom into the intruder. Since fast travel or rest is generally not possible in a cave, you will most likely be forced to endure (or succumb) to the venom's effects.

The network of passageways connects five main rooms: a trophy room, a large pit room for tamed animals, a room for [[egg]]s, a room filled with corpses, and the living chambers. Stolen artifacts are piled with other stolen items in the trophy room. The living chambers are irregular cavities that contain many hostile kobolds. The pit room for animals is the largest room, spanning several z-levels deep in gradual slopes, poked with 3×3 enclosures on the sides. This room can include any poisonous non-mammal creatures.

According to [[legends]], kobolds may construct a [[market]] in their cave. As there is no evidence of any structure resembling a market in kobold caves, they are probably either an error or serve an unknown purpose during world generation.

<gallery>
File:Kobold cave entrance.png|Kobold cave entrance. Several levels needed to be traversed down from the natural cave mouth to reach this point.
File:Kobold cave passage.png|First tunnel portion
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z3).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z2).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z1).png|Second tunnel portion (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave passage 2 (z0).png|Second tunnel portion (bottom)
File:Kobold cave pit (z4).png|Pit room (z-level 0)
File:Kobold cave pit (z3).png|Pit room (z-level -1)
File:Kobold cave pit (z2).png|Pit room (z-level -2)
File:Kobold cave pit (z1).png|Pit room (z-level -3)
File:Kobold cave pit (z0).png|Pit room (z-level -4)
File:Kobold cave living.png|Living chambers (the "l" and "g" are [[animal people]])
File:Kobold cave trophy.png|Trophy room
File:Kobold cave eggs.png|Room with eggs
File:Kobold cave corpses.png|Room with corpses
</gallery>

== Dwarf fortress mode ==

[[File:Cave embark screen.png|thumb|A cave on the embark selection map screen]]

In [[dwarf fortress mode]], you can choose whether or not to make caves visible on the [[embark]] screen when you [[World generation|design]] the world you will play in. The default option for {{DFtext|Make Caves Visible}} is set to {{DFtext|No}}. If set to yes, caves will appear on the map so that they may be sought out or avoided as desired. Caves have the odd feature that the [[stone]] they are made of doesn't match the material left after it is dug out; for example, a rock wall will leave behind a [[clay]] floor.

== Adventurer mode ==

Caves can sometimes be found by repeatedly asking an NPC about the surroundings. They are the only way of entering the underground in [[adventurer mode]] besides visiting a dwarven [[fortress]] which has an entrance to a cavern; if NPCs in one region don't tell you about any caves, move to another region and try again.

{{Translation
| dwarven = äs
| elvish = garetho
| goblin = omo
| human = ngethac
}}

{{World}}

{{Category|Fortress mode}}
{{Category|Adventurer mode}}

File talk:Holy grail.png

2021-02-19T18:06:09Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Question about image license

== License follow-up ==
What is the origin of this image? @[[User:Zippy|Zippy]]: Although you supplied no [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_license#Rights_and_obligations source information], you asserted that this image is licensed “CC BY 3.0.” '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 18:06, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Creature mannerism token

2021-02-18T04:45:31Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Suggest merge into DF2014:Mannerism per DF:CP#R.

{{Quality|Fine}}{{av}}
{{merge|Mannerism|target=Mannerism|date={{CURRENTDATE}}}}
Mannerisms give a possibility of a personality quirk being included in each member of a caste.

Mannerisms are hardcoded and not otherwise placed in the raws.

Words placed with the mannerism token are the strings used in the mannerisms for that particular part (e.g. replacing "finger" with "toe" will give you "when she gets exasperated, she often points and shakes her toe").

List of known mannerisms:

*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_LAUGH}}]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_SMILE}}]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_WALK}}]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_SIT}}]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_BREATH}}]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_POSTURE}}]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_STRETCH}}]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_EYELIDS}}]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_FINGERS}}:finger:fingers]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_NOSE}}:nose]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_EAR}}:ear]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_HEAD}}:head]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_EYES}}:eyes]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_MOUTH}}:mouth]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_HAIR}}:hair]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_KNUCKLES}}:knuckles]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_LIPS}}:lips]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_CHEEK}}:cheek]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_NAILS}}:nails]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_FEET}}:feet]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_ARMS}}:arms]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_HANDS}}:hands]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_TONGUE}}:tongue]
*[{{text anchor|MANNERISM_LEG}}:leg]

{{Category|Tokens}}
[[ru:Creature mannerism token]]

Mannerism

2021-02-18T04:45:11Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Suggest merge per DF:CP#R.

{{av}}
{{Quality|Fine}}
{{merge|Creature_mannerism_token|target=Mannerism|date={{CURRENTDATE}}}}
Mannerisms show up in the dwarves status screens. For example: "When greeting others, she always smiles nervously." It is not apparent whether these mannerisms have any concrete effect.

==Mannerism Tokens==
From the [[String dump]].

* MANNERISM_LAUGH
* MANNERISM_SMILE
* MANNERISM_WALK
* MANNERISM_SIT
* MANNERISM_BREATH
* MANNERISM_POSTURE
* MANNERISM_STRETCH
* MANNERISM_EYELIDS
* MANNERISM_FINGERS
* MANNERISM_NOSE
* MANNERISM_EAR
* MANNERISM_HEAD
* MANNERISM_EYES
* MANNERISM_MOUTH
* MANNERISM_HAIR
* MANNERISM_KNUCKLES
* MANNERISM_LIPS
* MANNERISM_CHEEK
* MANNERISM_NAILS
* MANNERISM_FEET
* MANNERISM_ARMS
* MANNERISM_HANDS
* MANNERISM_TONGUE
* MANNERISM_LEG

{{Category|Dwarves}}

User talk:Loci

2021-02-15T23:53:21Z

Sriefmadsakzro: thanks

I've been seeing your edits on the recent changes page for a while now. Good job. :-) [[User:Emufarmers|Emufarmers]] 08:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the information regarding creating new pages. I have removed my question from [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Centralized Discussion#Content|where I posted it]] and will add a Wiki Editing section to the [[Frequently Asked Questions|FAQ]]. [[User:13thEssence|13thEssence]] 00:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

==Creature Type Pages==
Are those supposed to be stub articles, or did you mean to create them as categories? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 22:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

:Mainly I created them as stub articles so I would have somewhere to link the "interesting" attributes in the creature info box. That way the info box can just say "No Stun" with a link to more information if the user desires, but without cluttering up the info box with excessive common knowledge. While I also considered adding these tags as categories to the proper creature pages, I haven't put in the time to make that all work yet. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 22:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

::Eh, I tried to set up categories for the various "interesting" attributes, but the creature pages would display the categories without actually being assigned to the categories. Presumably it was a problem with transclusion depth, or formatting, or something. Someone more familiar with the system could probably get it to work, but I didn't feel like spending any more time on the problem so I removed the categories. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 12:39, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
:::That's because you were just inserting '''page links''' - if you wanted to put them in categories, you should've used <nowiki>[[Category:DF2012:whatever]]</nowiki> rather than just <nowiki>[[whatever]]</nowiki>. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 13:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

::::Not quite. I actually had added the categories using the <nowiki>{{Category|foo}}</nowiki> template, but removed them because they didn't work. Your links aren't working for me, either. When I click on [[:Category:DF2012:Flying]], for instance, I get ''"This category currently contains no pages or media."'' If, however, I add the category template <nowiki>{{Category|Flying}}</nowiki> to a creature page directly, the creature shows up on the category page. However, I certainly don't want to modify each and every creature page individually, so any workable solution has to be based on a template transcluding data from the creature /raws. If the creature pages won't register in the categories, I'd rather have the links to the "stub articles" than links to non-functional categories. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 14:24, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
:::::Using {{tl|Category|foo}} will include it in the category and {{tl|Catlink|foo}} will make an actual link appear on the page - if you want both to happen, then you need to use both of those (see {{tl|attrib proc}} which I just recently modified). --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 14:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

::::::If you click on [[:Category:DF2012:Flying]], you will find that the majority of creatures with flying are *not* currently included. This is exactly the same problem I ran into with my revision [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Attrib_proc&oldid=179580 179580], which looks remarkably similar to your revsion [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Attrib_proc&oldid=179609 179609]. In short, the creature pages show the category links, but aren't actually added to the category until the creature page is edited directly (the three flying creatures currently listed in the category have all been edited since your change). That means the categories won't be complete until *every* creature page with an ability has been edited (or the category lists are administratively regenerated), which is why I chose to revert the categories and just link to an ability page. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 23:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

:::::::Well, it was empty... then when I edited [[Giant bat]] it was added to the category page (even though I didn't edit the creatureinfo box). I only added a sentence about how much [[fun]] giant bats are to see what would happen. Strange that just editing a page would add it to a category... --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User_talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:47, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

::::::::Yep; that's exactly the problem I ran into. For a technical explanation: whenever a template is edited, the wiki software queues up jobs to automatically "regenerate" all the pages that include that template. As those jobs are processed, the pages should pick up new categories from the template. Unfortunately, the wiki software is not handling this specific case correctly--it appears that the raws are not being transcluded correctly during the regeneration, leading the conditional logic to conclude that no creature has the [FLIER] tag. When users edit the creature pages, though, the categories ''are'' regenerated correctly because the raws ''are'' transcluded correctly. I'm still looking for a solution to resolve the automatic regeneration problem, but since it only happens in the server's back-end processing it's hard to pin down. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 08:47, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

::::::::: Wow, I just noticed you said pretty much exactly what I said in the post before. Anyway, I noticed [[Template:Creaturelookup/0]] is using "/raw" as the path to raws. Maybe the wiki software isn't resolving this path correctly (which could be hard to track down, like you said in the section below). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User_talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:04, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

== Regenerating cached categories ==

I will reset the caches this weekend. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 09:48, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

:Thanks! --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 16:02, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

:It appears that the pages still aren't being categorized--the jobs are likely stuck in the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Job_queue Job Queue] (currently [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo&siprop=statistics 730 jobs] waiting). [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:RunJobs.php Manually running the queue] will hopefully put everything in the proper categories. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 21:35, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
::I simply forgot to clear the appropriate caches. The full job queue is run on a scripting server every 30 seconds, that estimate is always wrong. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 21:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
::For context, a single page rebuild creates about 100 jobs in the queue, so the expected number of jobs for this reset should be in the 10k-100k range. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 21:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

:::Alright; sorry for the confusion. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 21:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
::::No worries. The refresh cycle is running now and will take between 6-10 hours to complete. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 21:45, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Just an update - clearing the cache failed because of some silly issues with the way mediawiki creates jobs. We will need to null edit every page in order to get things working properly again. I will probably set up a bot to do this for us. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 05:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

:That, sadly, does not sound like a very workable solution. When I changed the formatting in one of the templates, all the categories were emptied again. So all the creature pages would probably have to be null-edited again after every change to any template on the creature pages. Unless the bot can be fully automated, the categories are practically guaranteed to be incomplete. In light of these problems it would perhaps be best to scrap the categories entirely. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 19:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
:: Let's not do that yet. I'm planning on upgrading mediawiki again shortly, and I believe there are fixes to this issue in newer versions of the software. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 01:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I did some experimentation on this problem; the automatic regeneration ''is'' running, but it appears that the creature raws are not being transcluded correctly during the regeneration, which prevents detection of the necessary tags. I believe the #df_raw function is not correctly returning the raws when executed from the context of the job queue process--is that something you could take a look at? Alternately, is this code available somewhere I could take a look at it? Unfortunately, since this is probably DFwiki-specific code, I doubt a Mediawiki update will fix it. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 09:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
:[https://github.com/quietust/DFRawFunctions] is the repo. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 06:34, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

::Thank you. While I don't see any significant problems in the code, I do see several paths that could lead #df_raw to return without the raws. You suggested above that the job queue is running on a separate server. Are the two config variables $wgDFRawEnableDisk and $wgDFRawPath setup correctly on this server? You might also try setting the correct values in DFRawFunctions.php directly, in case the global config values aren't being applied when the job queue is run. Whichever user is running to process the job queue needs to have read permissions to the raws directory and all files and subdirectories inside. That user may also need directory-list/execute permissions on those directories as well. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 17:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

== Variations ==

Thanks for fixing up the issues with namespaces and large/gigantic variations (although I must admit, "Tis" is pretty interesting). I tried adding spaces to [[:Template:Creature/basename]], but I'm unsure if #mreplace is aware of spaces. It looks like the variations don't show up on [[DF2012:Giant mantis]] (although I neglected to see if they did before, but they probably didn't, since Giant mantis man and Giant giant mantis don't exist). The link is still incorrect on [[:Template:Creature/variation links]], however. Also, I created [[:Template:Creature/exists]] as a potential replacement for #ifexists (which is "expensive" - the examples at [[:Template:Creature/variation links]] list an expensive function count of 68/100). A DFRaw function should do the trick, but I have yet to find a working solution. The problem I ran into previously was how the raws of base creatures contain no references to variations. I suppose, as a workaround, we could have a script build a cache-type template (probably run outside of the wiki and generating template code), but it would likely break easily with updates and take up a lot of space for a template. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 22:55, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
:Note: [[DF2012:Giant tortoise man]] does display variation links, but none to itself. --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 22:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

::I wouldn't worry about the expensive function count--each invocation only uses 4, but the 17 examples on the template page are the reason why that particular page is so high. In normal use, each creature page should only need 4 (actually 6 since creature/variation uses 2 as well). I have an idea to override the variations output which should make it possible to "special case" around the bugs. Really, "Large" and "Gigantic" could be handled as special cases too, since there are only a few of them. I'll see if I can get that working here shortly. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 23:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

== Double Redirects ==

I'll take a look and see what broke there. It used to work properly but something got finagled at some point. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 18:24, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

== Image Issues ==

Fixed sliver barb on the [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:Textile-industry-flowchart.PNG textile flowchart]. thanks for pointing that out --[[User:Agm|Agm]] ([[User talk:Agm|talk]]) 00:21, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Should be fixed now. Thanks for the heads up. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 20:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

:Wow; that was fast! Thank you for your dedication to the Dwarf Fortress Wiki. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] 20:47, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

== Creature categories ==

In case you haven't noticed, the recent upgrade seems to have fixed the issue with the categories ([[:Category:DF2012:Exotic pet]] lists 273 creatures). --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 12:58, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

:They worked briefly, but sadly they're now broken again in a new way: [[:Category:DF2012:Exotic pet]] currently includes [[Cat]], [[Dog]], [[Dwarf]], and all other creatures that use the attribute template. So we traded empty categories for incorrectly-filled categories, resulting in equally worthless information. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
::Just a sec, I've started the repair process there -- for future reference, when this happens, just do a null edit of [[Template:Creaturelookup/0]] (that is, an edit that doesn't change anything), and the wiki software will automatically fix this, though it might take a little while (incidentally, it wasn't the update that fixed it, it was me, using this trick) --[[User:Zzedar|Zzedar]] ([[User talk:Zzedar|talk]]) 20:55, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
:::I also started rerunning all the category regeneration, so it should be super fixed. :) --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 21:00, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

:Excellent! That appears to have fixed it. I don't know why my change to [[Template:Attrib proc]] wouldn't cause the same regeneration, but I'm just glad to finally have useful categories. Now we finally have a list of all the critters with [[:Category:DF2012:Shell|shells]] and [[:Category:DF2012:Syndrome|syndromes]]. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:17, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

== [[DF:Next]] ==

I have no idea why I created that. I might have thought it would be useful in a template, but right now it's only used on [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Next|2 content pages]]. The only reason I can think of is that it could help detect things that need updating once the next version is actually released, but that can probably be accomplished with a search. Personally, I agree that "the next version" is clearer than "DF2013". --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:36, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

== Recent changes to the exploratory mining page ==

(Recent changes page lurker) Why did you remove the reference to the "Pinwheel Shafts" from that page? Seemed quite appropriate and non-harmful. Also, if you could link any research you point out in the text (mainly about FPS death, which I believe should go to a new, separate section but within the same topic), that would be great.--[[User:Doktoro Reichard|Doktoro Reichard]] ([[User talk:Doktoro Reichard|talk]]) 22:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

:Eh, that design was significantly similar to the mineshaft design, yet less efficient and did not provide 100% visibility. The only "claim to fame" listed was protecting against dwarves falling down stairways, an event so rare in this version that I've never even seen it happen. I didn't feel that the design was particularly clever, so I removed it from the page. If you are fond of it, feel free to put it back.

:[http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104643 This forum thread] was the source of my comment on FPS death. Specifically, [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104643.msg3096896#msg3096896 blue sam3 notes that open space causes lag], and later on [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104643.msg3403998#msg3403998 ghostwoods compares linear space to square space].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

:: No, I'm not particularly fond of that design (I'm more of an organic development kind of fellow), but I do like to know why things that might have been good yesterday are deleted today, without any apparent reason (even in the changelog).
:: Also, I did read that post fully (it's even in my userpage due to the relevance). I would have to argue that just opening space by mining costs FPS. What does cost is, as I think you mentioned, the increased pathing calculations that results from the open space. That research also came a bit before the current DF2012 according to the [[Release information]] page. This being said, my main concern about that part is that FPS death is a diagonal subject to Exploratory mining and would deserve a section of its own, if enough relevant information is present in the page.--[[User:Doktoro Reichard|Doktoro Reichard]] ([[User talk:Doktoro Reichard|talk]]) 22:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

== <gallery> ==

The reason [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2012:Forgotten_beast&diff=197254&oldid=197231 this] didn't work is because parser tags (like <gallery> and <pre>) don't treat their content as wiki markup. The easiest way around this is to use <nowiki>{{#tag:}}</nowiki>, which passes its (parsed) arguments to a tag:
<pre>{{#tag:gallery| {{/gallery}} }}</pre>
Also, nice work with the random images and galleries – using pipes is a lot cleaner than using Regexfunctions (which I apparently hit the limit on when redoing the old gallery). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

:Ah, that makes sense. I think I'll leave the forgotten beast page the way it is though--it's already quite long, and the gallery works well enough as a linked subpage. My goal was to add random images to the forgotten beast page, but when I researched the Sg template I discovered it was only a single-purpose design. Rather than copy it and create another single-purpose template, I decided to generalize it. Luckily the syntax for images and galleries is interchangeable, so I was able to simplify the code and take the images directly from galleries. The random images don't seem to rotate very often (probably the result of server caching), but other than that they seem to work. Hopefully I can find more great artwork on the forums to spruce up the wiki. On the topic of images, I think the main page gallery could stand to be cleaned up a bit; one long string of text does not translate well to a thumbnail. Some could be cropped to a more compelling image (like the "attend party" one has been); others may require reformating or replacement.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:53, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

::Purging should usually update the image - I use [[User:Lethosor/purge_link.js|this script]] to add a menu option that does this to the navigation bar (under the move/watch menu). I agree that some of the captions need to be shortened - I like the fact that they're more visible than before, but some of them end up being too long when displayed (particularly for narrow images, like [[:File:Cacamefight.gif]]). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

== Plant raw pages ==

Not sure if you noticed, but QuietBot already created DF2014 plant raw pages (at least trees, possibly more) - see [[DF2014:Orange tree/raw]], for example. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:26, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

:Wish I had caught that before I created all those duplicates. We seem to have a naming issue (which is carried over from the raws): [[DF2014:Alder/raw]] vs [[DF2014:Abaca tree/raw]], [[DF2014:pineapple/raw]] vs [[DF2014:Watermelon vine/raw]] vs. [[DF2014:Raspberry bush/raw]] vs. [[DF2014:Tomato plant/raw]], etc. Sorry for the mess; feel free to remove the unnecessary pages and clean it up however you prefer.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 02:00, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

::FWIW, I prefer the shorter names. You can inline-wikilink [[cherry]] in a number of different ways ([[cherry]] wood, [[cherry]] fruit, [[cherry]] wine, etc.), however [[cherry tree]] is significantly less accommodating ([[cherry tree]] wood, [[cherry tree]] wine? [[cherry tree|cherry wine]]?). Adding the extra descriptors doesn't really gain us anything unless we want a separate page for cherries-as-a-fruit.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 02:21, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
:::For all of the plant raw pages, I used the plant's [NAME:foo] (or [ALL_NAMES:bar]) token; thus, the inconsistency comes from Toady himself. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 13:15, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

:I went ahead and finished creating the stub pages for the new trees.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 16:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

== #param ==

I'm curious about your [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Plantlookup&diff=next&oldid=215972 series of edits] to [[Template:Plantlookup]] - is there a problem with {{<nowiki/>#param}}? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:26, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

:I was trying to get <nowiki>{{#ifeq:{{{wiki|no}}}|no|_A_|_B_}}</nowiki> to work [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Crop/DF2014&curid=34609&diff=215974&oldid=215969 here]. I would expect that if the wiki parameter is not defined then this would return _A_; instead it returns _B_. I was modifying the #param call to check if it was returning a defined value given undefined inputs. (My results are inconclusive since I later realized someone had added a [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Plantlookup/DF2014&diff=prev&oldid=215976 redundant layer of #param processing].)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:44, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

::Oh, right. The {{{arg|default}}} syntax only returns "default" if arg isn't passed at all - if it's passed to the template with an empty value, that will expand to an empty string instead (I think #param behaves the same way). Making the "wiki" parameter default to "no" in [[Template:Plantlookup/DF2014]] should work. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:58, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

== New creatures ==

Are you adding/updating these creature pages with a script/bot/whatever or manually? I'm asking because the [[Graphic_set#Creatures|graphic set]], [[Tileset#Creatures|tileset]], and [[Creature]] pages still need to be updated with the new creatures as well.
Is there an easy way to pull these from the raws automatically? [[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 20:55, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

:I wrote a perl script to do the grunt work. I'll see about updating those pages as well...--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:00, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

::If you'd like to make a bot account, I can give it the bot flag so it doesn't clutter up recent changes (as long as you pass ``bot=true`` when editing pages, that is). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:42, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the offer, but [[User:Lightfoot|Lightfoot]] already made all the new pages. I'm just crunching the raws to plug into pages which have long lists of creatures.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:27, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
::''Much'' appreciated. Thank you, Loci.[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 10:19, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

== v0.43.05 raws ==

0.43.05 raws should be up now. (It's been a while since you mentioned this and since you've been active, so I thought I'd reply here too.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:44, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

:Thanks! --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 14:54, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

== Multiple redirects leads to incorrect namespace ==

Discussion here: [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Centralized_Discussion#Solution_for_this]] [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 10:49, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

== Discussion in, supposedly, proper context... ==

...because context does matter.

With all my attempts to correct the following:

"Murky pools won't be shown on the [[embark|embark screen]], but they are '''a ubiquitous feature'''"

...for some sort of highly, blatantly obvious spelling/grammar mistake, that honestly needed (or so I thought) no edit summary to not be correct and stay correct, but for your semi-irrelevant vomiting about "an usage" I wouldn't find myself in the bind I now do. (Yes, its a mistake to me, hence the corrections in the first place) The question now becomes: How to proceed ''other than leaving it alone'' (as you seem to have insinuated with your "an usage" interjection on my talk page, unfortunately)? I mean, yeah, SPAG, corrected thus: "Murky pools won't be shown on the [[embark|embark screen]], but they are '''an ubiquitous feature'''" sets off my personal annoyances (Aspergers, frankly) a good deal less, but..

...*shrug* What say you? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:50, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

== Appreciation ==
I've recently had an unfortunate reason to look at your contribs, and I think it's too bad for the wiki's sake that you're not still an active editor. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 23:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Lethosor

2021-02-15T22:42:32Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Further comment */

User talk:Lethosor

2021-02-15T22:39:52Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Further comment */

{{User:Lethosor/header}}
{{Archive|
* [[/archive1|Archive 1 (February-August 2013)]]
* [[/archive2|Archive 2 (Sept. 2013 - May 2014)]]
}}
__TOC__
{{clear}}

==Bot requests==
<div style="" class="plainlinks">
[{{fullurl:User talk:Lethosor|action=edit&section=1&editintro={{urlencode:User:Lethosor/edit intro/bot}}}} '''Add a new request''']
</div>

=== Underpopulated categories ===

Many categories in the DF2014 namespace don't list some of the pages that have the category link. An empty edit on a page (well, any edit) will correct this, but only for that page. This sounds like a job for a bot. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 19:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
:I'm pretty sure that's a cache problem, so I'll try rebuilding link tables on the server side and see if that helps (it would probably be a lot faster than sending a bot around to null-edit every page). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
::This has been fixed. The problem was that the server that actually runs the job queue was still using the old configuration (without the DF2014 namespace). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:17, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

== Diagram ==

Take a look over [[DF talk:diagram|here]]. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 15:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

== Ceramic Industry page assistance. ==

(Message here) --[[User:DorfyDave|DorfyDave]] ([[User talk:DorfyDave|talk]]) 04:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the help with the ceramic industry stuff.

I see what you are doing with the thumbnail workflows on other pages, so if you would rather it be small and let the reader expand it, that would be fine.

I was thinking that the pages looked better with the intro section before the regular content, keeping it separate from the auto TOC / Header listed content, but if you prefer that everything follow the layered header format, that's fine.

:My primary concern was the wrapping caused by inserting the full-size flowchart next to a section. It looks like you've addressed that by splitting up the flowchart, which looks good to me. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

== Removing/restoring [[Main:Fruit]] ==

Not that I am protesting it, but why exactly did you remove and then restore the [[Main:Fruit]] page? Because to me, all that happened now is that the creation entry on the page's history is gone, which isn't really anything notable either.
--{{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|13:03|August 26, 2014}} 13:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
:I deleted it at first because I didn't realize AutoRedirect wasn't handling section redirects properly, then restored it when I noticed it was broken. That article's [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Fruit&action=history history] still shows your revision, so I'm not sure what you mean - is it missing from [[Special:RecentChanges]]? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
::The creation entry I was talking about was actually the first entry, and the entry that is now the only one was the second before you removed it. When I created the page I first had it directly redirect to [[cv:Tree#Fruit]], which after testing didn't work. I usually save the page when the preview doesn't show a red link and the link is correct, and after saving I test it, This time, however, the link in the preview was blue and correct, but actually following the redirect only led to [[cv:Tree]] instead of [[cv:Tree#Fruit]]. The entry you are seeing now is the result of fixing this by making it into a double redirect through [[cv:Fruit]].
:::It looks to me like your first edit was to [[DF2014:Fruit]] - when [[Main:Fruit]] didn't exist, it would have automatically redirected to [[DF2014:Fruit]], so it might have appeared to exist when it didn't. (The problem here is that I made AutoRedirect follow redirect chains internally, since Mediawiki's maximum-redirect setting is buggy, so a nonexistent [[Main:Fruit]] would actually redirect to what [[cv:Fruit]] redirects to - the problem is that it ignores sections at the moment, so section redirects will need to be manually created until I can fix that.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

== settings-manager ==

I don't know where to put it because I don't have a github account and don't know if you have a personal thread for your scripts like the others, but couldn't you add a TEXT mode entry in line 116 of your settings-manager script?
--[[Special:Contributions/78.250.50.116|78.250.50.116]] 04:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
:I originally excluded it because it only works on Linux, but I'll add it back for Linux users. Thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

== Interesting glitch with redirects ==

I went to see what "Candy" was by going to a page named "Candy", and I found out that it meant Adamantine. But I saw that I got redirected to [[v0.34:Adamantine]], which shouldn't happen seeing as mainspace redirects should always go to the cv namespace. So I went back to fix it, and I saw that [[main:Candy]] redirected to [[main:Adamantine]], so I went there to fix it. But that page redirected properly to [[DF2014:Adamantine]]. This is where it gets interesting.

So when you go to [[main:Candy]], you get redirected to [[main:Adamantine]] which in turn redirects to [[DF2014:Adamantine]]. But - for some reason, you don't get sent to [[DF2014:Adamantine]], but to [[v0.34:Adamantine]]. Going to [[main:Adamantine]] in the first place redirects you to [[DF2014:Adamantine]] properly.

I have no idea how this happens, and since you maintain most of the wiki, I think you would be the right person to tell this to.
--{{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|13:42|November 01, 2014}} 13:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

:My best guess is that the [[Main:Candy]] redirect is cached and still points to [[v0.34:Adamantine]]. Our [[DF:REDIR|new policy]] is to keep redirects in versioned namespaces, so feel free to tag any broken redirects (in the main namespace) that you find with {{tl|bad redirect}} and I'll delete them. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 14:48, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

:I just saw a redlink on the exploratory tunnels page(redlink to [[DF2014:Break]]) and went to create it, when I discovered that the pages for Break existed for 23a and 40d, but not for 34.11 and 40.x. I went to check those to import content, and they turned out to be redirects. So I just redirected [[DF2014:Break]] to [[DF2014:On break]] and when I went to create additional redirects in the mainspace, I found that [[main:Break]] redirects to [[main:On break]] which redirects to [[cv:On break]]. But, again, it ultimately did not redirect to cv:On break but to v0.34:Break. I think that if it is indeed a cache problem we should rebuild redirect caches. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:08|November 02, 2014}}
:PS: Or just batch-delete all of this kind of redirects. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:09|November 02, 2014}}
:I don't like "bumping" this message like this, but since it's rather annoying, and ten days have been since I told you, almost all of these redirects are broken. Take a look at [[main:Aluminium]] for example, it goes to its 34.11 page. I think that it goes like this; when a page in the mainspace redirects to another page in the mainspace, which in turn goes to a cv space page, it goes to 0.34 instead of the current version. Going to the main>cv redirect initially does not cause this glitch. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|12:46|November 12, 2014}}
::It would be helpful if you could add {{tl|bad redirect}} to those pages (preferably before the "#REDIRECT" line) so I can delete them. I'm not sure what's causing the problem, but I'll see if I can override broken redirects with the AutoRedirect extension as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

== Migrated citations ==

As seen on [[DF2014:Dragonfire]], migrated citations can become confused, pointing to non-existent pages. I'm not sure how to fix it, but in general citations shouldn't automatically change what they are pointing at.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 18:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

== <nowiki>{{ArticleVersion}}</nowiki> bug ==

I just found another very strange bug regarding the articleversion template. The more research I did on it, the weirder it got. The bug is that when you are not logged in, and you visit a non-DF2014 page with an av template, the latest version shows as v0.40.16 instead of v0.40.18. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|10:17|November 25, 2014}}
PS: This bug does not replicate when you are logged in. {{User:Latias1290/Sig/src|10:19|November 25, 2014}}
:This is because pages are cached for logged-out users. You can refresh individual pages by adding "?action=purge" to the end of the URL (or possibly by null-editing them). It appears to occur in DF2014 pages as well - [[DF2014:Hemp]], for example. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

== Lost password request ==

I've forgotten my password. User: Bumber

:You don't seem to have an email address associated with your account. I sent a message to Bumber on the forums, assuming that's you. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:24, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks.

== Redirects ==

Thank you for the correction. I felt I might be doing it wrong but couldn't find an example of it done right to copy. Now I know. :) [[User:Volatar|Volatar]] ([[User talk:Volatar|talk]]) 16:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

== v0.42.05 raws update ==

Just a friendly reminder that the wiki raws need updated to pick up the [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Page_request/List&diff=222917&oldid=222913 new critters in v0.42.05]. It would also be nice if your bot could auto-create the new creature pages so we don't end up with [[back bear man]] and the like.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

:Quietust updated the extension, but I'm having trouble deploying the changes for some reason (which Emily can hopefully figure out). I don't know if I'll have enough time this/next week to write a script to create the new creature pages - if not, Quietust might have something still laying around from 0.34/0.40. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:45, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

== Page move reminder ==

[[DF2014:Box]] to [[DF2014:Container]] please. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 23:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

:Done. It took me a second to figure out what the issue was - I'm surprised Mediawiki wouldn't let you move a page over another one that was just a redirect. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
::Thanks! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:50, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

== v0.43.05 raws update ==

Just a friendly reminder that the wiki raws need updated to pick up the changes through v0.43.05.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

:Done. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:43, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

== Multiple redirects leads to incorrect namespace ==

Discussion here: [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Centralized_Discussion#Solution_for_this]] [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 10:49, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

We had an attack on August 3rd. [[Talk:Main Page (fix plz)]] ‎needs moved back to Talk:Main Page, and the rest of [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/Etihand the vandal's handiwork] can just be deleted. I can't think of any legitimate reason a user would need to move Talk:Main Page, so it should probably be move-locked to prevent future hijacks.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 15:53, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

:It should be cleaned up now. Sorry for the delay there. [[Main Page]] was already move-protected, but apparently that didn't apply to the talk page, so both should be move-protected now too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

== Sorry, I need a password reset ==

I just logged in, saw the post about passwords needing to be changed. (Feeling all smart since I just setup a password manager) I updated my password, only to realize I didn't save the new password correctly in the manager. I tried to reset it but the wiki had a note saying to contact you since it can't do outbound email right now.

My user name is [[Frobnic8]].

My most notable contribution here are the PDF versions of the old Bronzemurder illustration by Tim Denee: [[Bronzemurder]]

The files are still hosted at my website. To prove it's me, I've also left you a note at http://eldritch.org/erskin/temp/df_wiki.txt

Sorry for the hassle, but if you could set me a temporary password or send me a link to a password reset to the associated email address for the account, that'd be awesome.

Thanks!

--[[Special:Contributions/70.163.4.102|70.163.4.102]] 15:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Done —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks! --[[User:Frobnic8|Frobnic8]] ([[User talk:Frobnic8|talk]]) 02:51, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

== Password reset ==

I could have sworn I did this already, but now there's no sign of my edit here. Dunno what happened to it. Can I please get a password reset for user Urist McDorf. I believe the email info associated is still good (j*y@y*m). Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/108.49.199.220|108.49.199.220]] 06:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

== Totally failed to make an account ==

Really think I did everything right.

The Captcha app you are using says it "shutdown" on 3-31-2018 so i'm wondering if that's the issue. – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:216.201.251.142|216.201.251.142]]

:Yeah, we know about it. Emi and Briess are working on some upgrades, and we'll try to upgrade the captcha once it's done. In the meantime, you can PM me on the forums (or email me at gmail.com) and I think I can set up an account for you. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

== Chemist Page Quality Rating ==

The quality rating of the [[chemist]] page is listed as *Superior*, despite being a stub. I can't even decrease the quality down to +Fine+ using the rating script.
I added the memory attribute as stated by Toady's recent FotF reply, and I'll insert the relevant [[topics]] for the skill, but there's probably a lot more work to be done.
--[[User:Bumber|Bumber]] ([[User talk:Bumber|talk]]) 06:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

:The "override" link [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Chemist&action=history worked for me]. You have to click on the rating at the top that you want to select, then submit. The calculated score is unreliable, to say the least. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

::I couldn't figure out how the override worked and just assumed it was an admin thing. Didn't realize you had to click one of the quality options at the top. —[[User:Bumber|Bumber]] ([[User talk:Bumber|talk]]) 22:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

== [Proposition] - Wiki preview popups ==

Hi there.

I've read quite a bit of wikipedia these last few days (the real wikipedia website), and I've come to use their preview feature quite a few times.
In case you don't know, the preview is a little JS pop-up that shows an image and some text when you hover a link.
So, you get a rough idea of what the thing is, and you don't have to load the full page (you can still if you click the link).

This feature is not in DF wiki, and I was thinking maybe it could be, as it greatly increase readability (since you don't have to open a new page, read the first few lines, go back, and waste time figuring out where you were; for every topic you're unaware of).

I'm not sure whether I should ask you, or Briess or anyone, but since you've made quite some wiki Extensions, I'll ask anyway.

So, do you think it could be a viable idea to turn this feature on ?

Here's a mediawiki tutorial on how to set this up, just in case :
[https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Popups]

Cheers ! =D
- Spriggans
Aug, 17 2018

:It does sound useful, but it claims to require MediaWiki 1.25+, so it'll probably have to wait until we finish upgrading. There are instructions for 1.24 or earlier in the article, though - I'm not sure how far back "or earlier" includes. The two extensions it depends on, TextExtracts and PageImages, require 1.23+ and 1.25+ respectively, so it's unlikely that it'll work on our current (pre-upgrade) setup.
:(I am a good person to ask, by the way, and <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> is probably a more convenient way to sign comments.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

== Aesthetically Pleasing Things ==

I know I posted this before but... do I have your permission to spice up some of the templates of tables? I could make some look better and "cleaner" than they do now. Also, are there any plans to change the default look of the wiki? I don't mean this in a nasty way, white with black text is pretty... generic. - [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:20, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

== Auto-Welcome ==

It looks like your bot is automatically welcoming editors. Unfortunately, due to the nature of rotating IP addresses, it appears your bot has [//www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/LethosorBot welcomed one anonymous user] 7 times in the last 5 days. Perhaps it would be best to restrict auto-welcoming to non-IP users?--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's the AutoWelcomeUser extension (just set up to attribute edits to my bot). I definitely agree that it should be changed, and I'll look into it. Fun fact: this was enabled on the old wiki, but I had written it for a ''slightly'' newer Mediawiki version, so I had forgotten about it since it didn't actually work until we upgraded. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
:I think this is fixed now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:57, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

== On "Acceptable" Commas ==

Regarding [//www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:World_generation&curid=32663&diff=245045&oldid=245044 this edit]:

Per the [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia Manual of Style] (referenced as [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#S|Rule S]]): "Where more than one style is acceptable under MoS, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason."

So, while that comma is indeed "acceptable" (or optional), editing to add that optional comma is not. I intentionally did not put a comma there when I added that sentence, and I believe my punctuational preference is at least as valid as ‎Silverwing235's.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

:I'm not convinced that comma is optional, but I didn't realize you had added that sentence (I thought it was part of the original quote from Toady before your changes, so I was mistakenly applying rule S there as well). Apologies, and it's your call as to what to do there. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:21, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

== Embark points ==

There's no page explaining embark points in-depth; can I make such a page? Or at least add it to the embark page? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
: I'd add it to the embark page since I'm not sure it warrants a separate page unless it's a ''lot'' of detail (i.e. more than the current embark page). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:43, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
:: With what I have planned, there's a ton of things I can go over which can fill a page. I can make a "workbench"/fake page and you can tell me if it's worthy or not. Also, is it possible to put things in "collapsable/expandable" tables to not badly stretch out pages? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:14, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
:: Sorry, one more thing. You know the "Urist likes [something] for their [something]."? Are these made up on the spot or is that info taken directly from somewhere? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:59, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
::: I'm not sure how much detail you can go into about just embark points, but sure, feel free to make a test page if you like and I can provide some input. I wouldn't put things in collapsible tables just because of page length, because pretty much no other page does that (except for some things that aren't really part of the content of a page, like nav boxes and raws). If you're referring to things like "Urist likes [creature]" from pages like [[DF2014:Cat]], those are generated from the raws. I'm not sure if that appears on any other types of pages. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:30, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

==Creature font==
Are you alright if I change the font of the letters in the creature list? Sorry to say this but that font is kinda ugly. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 01:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
:Are you talking about [[DF2014:Creature]] or something else? I personally think that page looks fine, but what does it look like on your end? It might be some cross-browser issue that we can try to sort out. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:56, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
::Yes I do mean that DF2014:Creature page. The font of the letters that resemble the creatures are this ugly "Times New Roman"-esque font that looks like an eyesore to me. It could be a much smoother looking font. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
:::I noticed the font looks ugly on Firefox and Edge but not in the Tor Browser. So yeah, there's a weird browser thing going on and I don't know how to fix things for specific browsers on wiki's... -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 20:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
::::I'm guessing you don't have the "Century" font installed, or accessible in those browsers for some reason. For reference, [https://i.imgur.com/wD6QMoG.png here] is what it looks like for me, definitely not Times. I'll see if it can be standardized. Does {{Raw Tile|c|6:0}} look ok to you? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:33, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::At some point in the possibly-recent past, those letters looked the same for me as it did you, but one day it just changed to the uglier font. Also, it's impossible to use the "Upload newer version of this file" function, as that always gives weird errors: Could not read or write file "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/6/6c/Biome_evil.png" due to insufficient permissions or missing directories/containers. I'm assuming I don't have access to do that? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:07, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::I figured out the setting that controlled the font, it's the "Allow pages to choose their own fonts, instead of your selections above" choice, but turning this option off can spoil the fonts everywhere else on other sites. There's something about (my) Firefox that's not recognizing the Century font, even though I have it. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah, not sure it's worth working around browser settings. Does the {{Raw Tile|c|6:0}} from above look ok to you or the same as the one on the creatures page? Also, that error is definitely not intentional; I'll look into it. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:57, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::The C there looks alright. Creature tile lists on other pages look fine as it's using the "Tile" template, so maybe something's wrong with the template being used in the creature page. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 12:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a custom template being used for those tables that specifies the font itself. I changed the font to fall back to the ones that {{tl|Tile}} uses. Does it look ok now? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::It does not. But when I use a different computer, it's fine there (still on Firefox). Yeah, I can't figure this out. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 07:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
{{od|10}}
I've cleared the cache on the server side (I don't remember if I did that before). If that still doesn't help, maybe clearing your browser's cache would help? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:29, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::Well, I cleared 1GB worth of data, but that didn't fix the issue? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

== BREAKING NEWS ==

Here comes Supernerd... the coolest and greatest editor ever on [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki]]. --[[User:Supernerd|Supernerd]] ([[User talk:Supernerd|talk]]) 10:47, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

== Proposal to translate the Wiki into Spanish ==

Good I am an expert player in the game and I would like to translate the wiki to help the Spanish community in this great game.
Should I translate it as I could?.
Here's my email for the answer: cheekonobreeko@gmail.com

== Just signal boosting on someone else's behalf... ==

...apparently a researcher with [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174850.0 research] on [[book]]s got themselves [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175133.0 locked out of the lab]. Any support for this?
--[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

== Minor server-side issues... ==

1. Broken(404) HTML links [[Quotes|here]].

2. Creature [[Giant earthworm|variation]] needs to be added [[Worm|here]].
--[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

:These aren't server-side issues - they can be fixed by editing the pages. In the first case, the forums moved from bay12games.com/forums to bay12forums.com/smf (I'm not sure when that happened, or if there used to be a redirect, but I would recommend {{tl|cite forum}} to make them future-proof). The second issue you pointed out happens when creature variations don't follow the typical naming pattern, but you can override the variations that the templates display. See [[blue jay]], [[bluejay man]], and [[giant bluejay]] for examples, and feel free to let me know if you have any questions about those templates. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:30, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
:Update: looks like there's also {{tl|forum link}} if you prefer to keep the text that the links currently use (for #1). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:33, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

== can't login... user:garrieirons ==

yeah I tried all the things and posted on the forum.

any advice on how to get a password reset?

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:GarrieIrons

Sorry if you're not an admin.

Cheers,
Garrie

Symptom:
When I click the reset password link, and enter my user name (GarrieIrons) it tells me:
'''A password reset email has already been sent, within the last 24 hours. To prevent abuse, only one password reset email will be sent per 24 hours.'''

Cheers again.
G

:Ok, so it sounds like you already requested a password reset - did you get an email? It should have come from do-not-reply@dwarffortresswiki.org (make sure it didn't get sent to your spam folder). If you don't have access to the email address you registered with anymore, I can try to reset it some other way. Also, where did you post on the forums? I didn't see anything from you on the wiki board. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:36, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
::To be clear, every password reset has resulted in the message above, but, no email. Can you tell me is it going to a hotmail, or a gmail address? If not, I'm stumped and I'll start a different account?
::Also...ok I looked at threads I guess. I coulda sworn at some time in the past I asked about this on the forum but I'm not finding it (only the thread I thought I responded to).
::G
:::OK I found a PM thread on the forum, from ages ago, referring me to you...but I'd never followed up... 🤦‍♂️
:::G.
:::Looks like your username at hotmail.com - do you still have access to that? I just sent you a test email from the wiki, so let me know if that goes through. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

== Weirdness ensues... ==

...Alright, maybe not, but then again...
[[Interaction_examples|this page]] is fine in Search, but spews redlinkery when linked to as if Ebola-infected - very puzzling.
---[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:16, 7 March 2020 (UTC) EDIT: And the mystery deepens, because apparently one has to be [[DF2014:Interaction_examples|very specific]] about phrasing...downright incantational,really...in order to get a clear result with this.

:If you're in a versioned namespace (like DF2014), links will be within that namespace by default; otherwise, they will use the main namespace. Looks like a [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Interaction_examples&action=history redirect was created] in this case and both of those links seem to work now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

== Obok Meatgod ==

Hey Lethesor, thanks for all the work you do for DFhack. I have a favour to ask. I was using the "random page" feature and I stumbled upon [[Obok Meatgod|this article]]. The article is about an adventure mode game from the Bay12 forums where some dude modded genitals into his game so he could [do some really vile stuff]. I don't mean to bug ''you'' about it, but I'm getting an internal error when I try to start a talk page on the article. Basically, can you delete this article? I'm all for some good shock humour, and I know DF stories can get pretty brutal, but this doesn't really seem like it's supposed to be funny. The forum page it links back to just reads like some edge-lord's fanfic power fantasy. Maybe I'm mistaken and this ''is'' relevant to DF, but if not, mind doing me a favour and just purging it from the wiki?
--[[Special:Contributions/130.211.1.83|130.211.1.83]] 00:33, 2 April 2020 (UTC) Jon
:I did a bit of research - given that it was deleted from Bay12 and DFFD, I think I'll follow suit and delete it from here too. (It's not permanent here - an admin could always get it back.) Thanks for bringing it to my attention. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:24, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
::Thanks Lethesor! [[Special:Contributions/35.191.8.35|35.191.8.35]] 17:07, 2 April 2020 (UTC) Jon

== Regarding a certain subst tag: ==

(Stop me if I miss anything, please.)

IIRC, its a since-deprecated holdover of some kind of Wikipedian affiliation, that is pretty much purge-on-sight when found in art licensing around here. The important question is, how to proceed, if at all, when evidence is discovered of apparent holdouts of that sort [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?search=subst%3A&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go further afield], outside the verified-for-deletion parameters? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

:I suggest [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Substitution MediaWiki's documentation] for information on what subst does. It's not specifically something that came from Wikipedia. One caveat is that if the template being substituted didn't exist when the page was saved, the subst: won't get replaced until you save the page again. However, in this case, it looks like I [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Licenses&diff=prev&oldid=249061 removed] the subst: part from where these templates were being used, so yes, on image pages, removing the "subst: prefix is fine.
:From the search results you linked, a lot of the subst occurrences appear to be in [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Wikitext_examples#HTML_tags HTML comments], so they won't get substituted when the page is saved. They also won't be displayed to readers, though. I suspect that's either stuff left over from version migrations or moving things to templates. I wouldn't put too much effort into dealing with those, unless you find something on a current-version page (in which case I'd say move things out of the comment if they're relevant or delete them if they're obsolete). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

== Lost password/email request ==

User: DDR
I've lost the email and password I apparently used to set up my account on this wiki, over a decade ago.

I'm [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=20574 DDR on the forum], which I still have my login for… and the mantis bugtracker, and DFFD.

Thank you. Sorry for the trouble.

:Sent a PM on the forums. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

== Further comment ==

It's hard to continue to [[wikipedia:WP:AGF|assume good faith]] in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASilverwing235&type=revision&diff=256707&oldid=256705 this case], when the user in question tries to bury discussion of their behavior. Obviously that tactic isn't very effective, but it's a far cry from the openness and transparency required for the wiki to function as a collaborative project. Anyway, I firmly believe in [[wikipedia:WP:AAGF|WP:AAGF]] as a part of [[wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]], which is part of the point I tried to raise in that discussion (which was then ''erased''). I'm linking these policies not because I think you're unfamiliar, but because I want to be clear on where I'm coming from. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 17:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

:We don't have many of our own policies on things like this, but I'll take a look at the ones you linked since I'm not very familiar with them, particularly AAGF. It occurs to me that some of my comments may have come across as not following AAGF, and I apologize for that - I was (and still am) trying to follow AGF on my end, but it is challenging in this situation. I didn't intend to imply that you were not. As for the talk page edits, [[wikipedia:WP:OWNTALK|WP:OWNTALK]] seems to match my thoughts on the matter. Silverwing235's comment appears (to me) to be a more explicit acknowledgement of the criticism you raised, rather than an implicit acknowledgement by just removing your comment. I think your criticism was understood, in any case. (I do plan to respond to the AIV discussion, but am not sure how best to do that yet. In any case, I appreciate your concern for the wiki, and would like to find a solution that's acceptable to everyone involved.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

::A few phrases in my comments below are bolded—it's really just to emphasize structure, not to alter tone.'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 22:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::---
::I actually wasn't talking about you when I referred to AAGF and my comment (and its erasure). I meant that Silverwing235 has—on this occasion and others—assumed that other editors are ''not engaging'' in good faith, and also that they are ''not assuming'' good faith (as when Silverwing235 referred to me as a “saboteur”); and that Silverwing235's own actions (''immediate'' removal of comments in ongoing discussions from their talk page—I believe this argument stands irrespective of [[wikipedia:OWNTALK|OWNTALK]]) make it hard to ''continue'' to assume good faith on their part.
::And, related to that: I have a hard time parsing many of Silverwing235's comments throughout. They're often vague and overcooked to the point of obscurity. There's very little there—even after the comment removal—that acknowledges the existence of a dispute over either past or ongoing behaviors, let alone the need for specific behaviors to change (let alone ''why'' those behaviors are wrong, or ''how'' those behaviors should change). Where there ''is'', there is also language implying that the issue is really with ''other'' editors and ''their'' disagreement—as if other editors are wrong to raise an issue in the first place. But as Silverwing235's edit summaries (and, incidentally, User+Talk comments) have repeatedly implied, they edit things to suit their personal tastes, ''not'' necessarily to correct mistakes (which they sometimes ''assert'' they are doing, but as has been seen, they frequently are not).
::---
::Another example of the general problem raised in AIV popped up yesterday, while reviewing a substantial [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&curid=31137&diff=256715&oldid=247968 IP edit] (which, to me, looked good), I noticed that the edits immediately prior to it were Silverwing235's, made in late 2019 (soon after their dispute with Loci had ended in Loci's departure). And I quickly saw that [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014%3AClimate&type=revision&diff=247966&oldid=247965 this edit] was again, apparently, a “stylistic” change which Silverwing235 may honestly have believed necessary (for their own reasons), but which was [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&diff=prev&oldid=256717 actually erroneous]. This sort of edit is partially why I cited IDHT and CIR (which, ''together'', are relevant here, I think) in the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&oldid=256704 AIV discussion].
::And although I can understand why Voliol might have gotten the contrary impression in the AIV discussion, I'm not advocating a high bar for entry, here. I'm saying that if '''an editor has been told to avoid imposing their own judgment where they cannot articulate a rationale''' (such as when deciding whether [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Silverwing235#Disruptive_Editing commas] need to be inserted before every occurence of [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256609 “if”] and “as”; whether a pair of parentheses should be [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Troubleshooting&diff=prev&oldid=256503 replaced] with an approximation to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Em_dash some other punctuation]; whether “he” and “she” should be [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256638 replaced], or [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=prev&oldid=256641 eliminated], or simply [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=247445&oldid=247317 left alone] where they already occur; or whether [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Fairy&diff=prev&oldid=256548 miscellaneous comments oblique to the rest of an article] are necessary or even appropriate), as Silverwing235 has, '''but they continue to do so''', then that presents a problem related to both judgment and behavior (hence IDHT, tangential to CIR).
::---
::Now, I hate to have these two discussions at the same time, but at this point, it would be counterproductive to fork it, so: I see that Silverwing235 has actually objected to the ''whole AIV discussion'' on the basis that they do not believe DE constitutes vandalism (which obviously it does not, in general). But as I acknowledged in my first contribution there, the prior AIV thread seemed to be the most appropriate place to make my comments due to the discussion which showed this user has faced similar criticism before. And, as I mentioned both above and in AIV, there is a pattern of civility issues which existed at least as early as that AIV thread. In particular, their [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User_talk:Loci#Discussion_in.2C_supposedly.2C_proper_context... responses] to criticism from Loci and in this case have been a mixture of aggressive and [[wikipedia:WP:INDCRIT|passive-aggressive]]. And again, it's hard to assume good faith when critical comments are removed ''immediately'' and without either '''a discussion''' or a '''clear''' and '''substantial''' '''acknowledgment''' that those comments referred to an ongoing pattern of behavior that must change (change ''what'', change ''how'', change ''why''). I.e., yes, users control their own talk pages, but that doesn't prevent their changes from being interpreted one way or another; and in this case, it's hard not to interpret Silverwing235's changes as ''avoiding the issue''. I understand their stated desire to avoid content which [[wikipedia:WP:MASTODON|affects them emotionally]], but this is about conduct as much as it is about content.
::---
::The only reason I've raised this is to avoid continued unease. I don't like writing about disputes, and I prefer to think of the wiki community as inclusive rather than exclusive. But again, it's harder to want to edit if this behavior—not just from Silverwing235, but from ''any'' editor—is unconstrained except by laborious trial and error (a huge time ''and energy'' suck, when you consider putting up with breaks from CIVIL). And I'm not alone in this (which I mention only to emphasize that this is not personal—and I'm ''not'' invoking a silent majority, whether one exists or not, and ultimately, it's not just about this one editor).
::---
::In any case, I appreciate your participation in the matter and in conveying suggestions about specific edits to this editor.
::'''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 22:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Point one: Yes, the notion about 'a more explicit acknowledgement' was accurate. A personal policy that I came up with re my talk page: 'If it would cause me significant emotional distress, either immediately or at any time during a review of the content, (aka: 'Nope, not having ''that'' around, causing trouble') it gets removed. If, IMHO, the removal itself would raise questions (as it appears to have done in this case) it will at least get a hopefully emotionally-neutral summary and acknowledgement of the thing that caused my upset to begin with. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

== Redirect ==

Hello. I noticed in the recent changes you reverted the edit on [[Textile Industry]], and I realized that my edit on [[Expedition Leader]] falls in the same category. The problem is that, as long as they exist, those pages will always appear on autocomplete, and they won't redirect properly if left as is. So I propose that until a decision is made for them to be deleted, that they be allowed to redirect properly to not confuse people who find them through autocomplete, like me. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 20:51, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

:The underlying cause here is a Mediawiki bug with double redirects, discussed in detail at [[DF:REDIR]]'s talk page. Making ''any'' sort of edit to the first page in the chain will fix broken double redirects, so even though I reverted your edit, [[Textile Industry]] redirects correctly now, even from the search bar. The other important point is that you need to use "cv" for the namespace in redirect targets - hardcoding a specific version like "DF2014" will have the wrong behavior when we add a new namespace. In this case, I have deleted the page you edited, since [[Expedition leader]] (lowercase L) already exists and turns up in search results (and follows [[DF:Rule N]]). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::Very well. Thank you for your time. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 21:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
:::I should clarify: you're welcome to fix redirects like this that you notice, as long as you use "cv" (and there's a reminder that appears above the edit box when editing pages in the main namespace, in case that's useful). If you notice redirects whose only difference is capitalization, feel free to tag them for deletion with {{tl|delete}} and I can handle them. It occurs to me now that [[Textile Industry]] is another example of that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Climate

2021-02-14T18:21:19Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Attempted to fix grammar of a single sentence while maintaining the examples it included. IMO, these example scenarios aren't necessary, since they aren't much less general than the thing they exemplify; still, I see no reason to remove them.

{{Quality|Exceptional|21:27, 8 November 2019 (UTC)}}
{{av}}'''Climate''' in ''Dwarf Fortress'' is a [[temperature]] rating used as a tool to define the [[weather]] patterns of a region. Most importantly, this will determine how the weather patterns of an area will affect above ground water sources. Overview of the temperature of an area is important for the lives of your dwarves and animals, as too-cold or too-hot temperatures will discourage or kill organic beings. Climate is a temperature rating only; actual ground cover is called a [[Biome|biome]].

''Note: If temperature is turned off, none of the mentioned effects will occur.''

=== Scorching ===

'''Peak Summer Temperature:''' 122°F (50°C) and above

'''Availability of water:'''
Any existing [[murky pool]] will dry up immediately. [[River]]s are unaffected.

'''When embarking in this region:'''
If no river or [[ocean]] is available, it is hard to survive in this climate. Your only chance is to find a cave with water.

In extremely hot regions (above {{ct|10078}}), [[dwarves]] and livestock may die from the heat (specifically, the fat in their bodies will ''melt'', causing them to bleed to death) if they remain outdoors for extended periods of time.

=== Hot===

'''Peak Summer Temperature''': 107-121°F (41-49°C)

'''Availability of water''':
In dry biomes, [[murky pool]]s may evaporate during dry [[season]]s (usually [[summer]]) but can be refilled by [[rain]].
[[River]]s are unaffected.

'''When embarking in this region''':
If you lack a [[river]], be sure to dig out a [[reservoir|cistern]] before summer is upon you.

=== Warm===

'''Peak Summer Temperature''': 82-106°F (28-41°C)

'''Availability of water''':
Any water source can be used during the whole year. This makes it the easiest climate to embark on. Very rarely, especially when very close to the edge of a temperate biome, one can have an extremely brief period of water freezing, usually only lasting a few days, thus providing no danger of death by thirst.

'''When embarking in this region''':
Keep in mind that murky pools can still dry up from repeated usage, especially with large populations. Try to find an alternate water source if the region is dry.

=== Temperate===

'''Peak Summer Temperature''': 47-82°F (8-27°C)

'''Availability of water''':
Surface pools and rivers may freeze for part of the year. The length of the freeze varies: pools and rivers may thaw sometime in [[spring]], remaining liquid until [[winter]]; or they may already be liquid at the beginning of spring, and freeze for only a month or so in winter.

'''When embarking in this region''':
If you lack a [[river]], you can dig out a [[reservoir|cistern]] in the non-freezing seasons. You can also use a source of heat (such as [[magma]]) to obtain liquid [[water]]. If the ground is covered in snow when you arrive, be sure to scout out the surface pools so that none of your dwarves find themselves [[Swimming|suddenly submerged]] when the pools thaw later in the spring.

=== Cold===

'''Peak Summer Temperature''': 33-46°F (1-8°C)

'''Availability of water''':
Surface pools and rivers are usually frozen, but can thaw for a few months each year.

'''When embarking in this region''':
The same measures as in temperate biomes can be taken.

=== Freezing===

'''Peak Summer Temperature:''' 32°F (0°C) or less

'''Availability of water:'''
Freshwater surface pools and rivers remain frozen throughout the year.

'''When embarking in this region:'''
:''See the [[Freezing|main article]] for more details.''
You must use a source of heat ([[magma]]) to obtain liquid [[water]]. Glacial ice can also be melted. Another option is an underground source of water.

In extremely cold regions (below {{ct|9964}}), [[dwarves]] and livestock may succumb to frostbite if they remain outdoors for extended periods of time. [[trade goods|Goods]] left outdoors may experience [[wear]] at an accelerated rate. [[Embark]] goods should be stored below ground as soon as possible, and [[trade depot]]s should be built below ground.

==See also==
*[[Weather]]
*[[Biome]]s

{{Translation
| dwarven = darùd
| elvish = eslo
| goblin = lang
| human = quinbor
}}

{{World}}
{{Category|World}}

Climate

2021-02-14T18:11:37Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Restored language (“length of the freeze” vs. “length of the frozen season”) to prior version. Frozen surface water is not restricted to a single season. See also freeze (noun). "Frozen season" is ambiguous at best.

{{Quality|Exceptional|21:27, 8 November 2019 (UTC)}}
{{av}}'''Climate''' in ''Dwarf Fortress'' is a [[temperature]] rating used as a tool to define the [[weather]] patterns of a region. Most importantly, this will determine how the weather patterns of an area will affect above ground water sources. Overview of the temperature of an area is important for the lives of your dwarves and animals, as too-cold or too-hot temperatures will discourage or kill organic beings. Climate is a temperature rating only; actual ground cover is called a [[Biome|biome]].

''Note: If temperature is turned off, none of the mentioned effects will occur.''

=== Scorching ===

'''Peak Summer Temperature:''' 122°F (50°C) and above

'''Availability of water:'''
Any existing [[murky pool]] will dry up immediately. [[River]]s are unaffected.

'''When embarking in this region:'''
If no river or [[ocean]] is available, it is hard to survive in this climate. Your only chance is to find a cave with water.

In extremely hot regions (above {{ct|10078}}), [[dwarves]] and livestock may die from the heat (specifically, the fat in their bodies will ''melt'', causing them to bleed to death) if they remain outdoors for extended periods of time.

=== Hot===

'''Peak Summer Temperature''': 107-121°F (41-49°C)

'''Availability of water''':
In dry biomes, [[murky pool]]s may evaporate during dry [[season]]s (usually [[summer]]) but can be refilled by [[rain]].
[[River]]s are unaffected.

'''When embarking in this region''':
If you lack a [[river]], be sure to dig out a [[reservoir|cistern]] before summer is upon you.

=== Warm===

'''Peak Summer Temperature''': 82-106°F (28-41°C)

'''Availability of water''':
Any water source can be used during the whole year. This makes it the easiest climate to embark on. Very rarely, especially when very close to the edge of a temperate biome, one can have an extremely brief period of water freezing, usually only lasting a few days, thus providing no danger of death by thirst.

'''When embarking in this region''':
Keep in mind that murky pools can still dry up from repeated usage, especially with large populations. Try to find an alternate water source if the region is dry.

=== Temperate===

'''Peak Summer Temperature''': 47-82°F (8-27°C)

'''Availability of water''':
Surface pools and rivers may freeze for part of the year. The length of the freeze varies: They may start out frozen, thaw sometime during [[spring]], and remain liquid until [[winter]], or they may start out liquid and freeze for only a month or so in winter.

'''When embarking in this region''':
If you lack a [[river]], you can dig out a [[reservoir|cistern]] in the non-freezing seasons. You can also use a source of heat (such as [[magma]]) to obtain liquid [[water]]. If the ground is covered in snow when you arrive, be sure to scout out the surface pools so that none of your dwarves find themselves [[Swimming|suddenly submerged]] when the pools thaw later in the spring.

=== Cold===

'''Peak Summer Temperature''': 33-46°F (1-8°C)

'''Availability of water''':
Surface pools and rivers are usually frozen, but can thaw for a few months each year.

'''When embarking in this region''':
The same measures as in temperate biomes can be taken.

=== Freezing===

'''Peak Summer Temperature:''' 32°F (0°C) or less

'''Availability of water:'''
Freshwater surface pools and rivers remain frozen throughout the year.

'''When embarking in this region:'''
:''See the [[Freezing|main article]] for more details.''
You must use a source of heat ([[magma]]) to obtain liquid [[water]]. Glacial ice can also be melted. Another option is an underground source of water.

In extremely cold regions (below {{ct|9964}}), [[dwarves]] and livestock may succumb to frostbite if they remain outdoors for extended periods of time. [[trade goods|Goods]] left outdoors may experience [[wear]] at an accelerated rate. [[Embark]] goods should be stored below ground as soon as possible, and [[trade depot]]s should be built below ground.

==See also==
*[[Weather]]
*[[Biome]]s

{{Translation
| dwarven = darùd
| elvish = eslo
| goblin = lang
| human = quinbor
}}

{{World}}
{{Category|World}}

User talk:Lethosor

2021-02-14T17:48:19Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Further comment */ new section

User talk:Silverwing235

2021-02-13T20:46:42Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Official complaints in AiV - oh dear. */

== *Wandering janitor puts down mop and bucket* ==

Yes, I know, not a very interesting placeholder.....but a beginning nonetheless. EDIT: On the other hand "If it looks wrong, it gets fixed" is my rule, which is why spot-edits will be preferred to blind-reverts around here. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:22, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

== [[DF2014:Centaur]] plural ==

In case you were wondering - your [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Centaur&diff=236185&oldid=229661 edit] didn't offend me at all, but in cases where there are multiple possible plurals, we try to stick with the one in the raws (click "show" next to the Raws box on [[DF2014:Centaur]], for example, or click on the "Raws" link itself). That's what DF uses in-game, and it's consistent with [[DF:Rule G]]. Just something to keep in mind. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

== On paragraphs ==

A paragraph is a group of closely-related sentences with a central theme. In several recent edits you have combined multiple paragraphs that do not share a central theme. In addition to being grammatically incorrect, this also makes it more difficult for players to skim the article for relevant information. For example, [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Losing&curid=31835&diff=238706&oldid=238703 this edit] attached the sentence about challenges for experienced players to a paragraph that begins "Most new players...". Please cease "fixing" short paragraphs by lumping them in with other, tangentially-related paragraphs.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:37, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Looks like there's already paragraph heading? I'll place this here, then: What's the logic/why merge [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Vampire&curid=32556&diff=254740&oldid=254722 these paragraphs] while also not merging them with the text preceding them?
(not the only paragraph merge I've seen, just a recent example) --[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 07:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

...to the extent they make sense as components of a single paragraph. Thanks for the reminder, will implement shortly. As for logic, being a part of the autistic community as I am...my 'reader's aesthetic' got irked, I suppose you could say. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

== Disruptive Editing ==

'''Warning''': Repeatedly modifying acceptable page layouts and punctuation to suit your personal taste is [[wikipedia:Disruptive_editing|disruptive]]. Further disruptive edits may result in a ban. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:40, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

:While I agree that some of the edits in question weren't necessary, others were constructive - at least the first half of [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Wood&curid=32642&diff=238873&oldid=238869&rcid=383537 wood], for example. I don't think reverting everything is a good solution, and I would be unwilling to block someone for this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:13, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

::With all due respect, this has been an ongoing problem since July. Roughly one third of my edits since then have been dealing with issues caused by this one user. I have spent a fair bit of time explaining why edits were problematic ([http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Slade&diff=prev&oldid=236259], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=prev&oldid=236737], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014_Talk:Steals_food&oldid=237634], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Silverwing235&diff=prev&oldid=238709]) and saving "constructive" changes ([http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Miasma&diff=prev&oldid=236260], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Dragon&diff=prev&oldid=237541], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Diplomat&diff=next&oldid=238673], [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Scholar&diff=next&oldid=238647]). However, Silverwing235 has continued to make the same types of problematic edits across more and more articles. While I still review each Silverwing235-edited article individually and only revert those which are problematic, I no longer consider it worthwhile to explain yet again why sprinkling in unnecessary commas and deleting newlines isn't acceptable, nor do I salvage minor "constructive" bits that happen to be included with disruptive edits. [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Magma_glass_furnace&curid=31863&diff=238911&oldid=238863 This] is a fine example: is changing the capitalization of "item hauler" worth burying information about architectural value at the end of a paragraph about sand gathering? No.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 16:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. It's pretty much the standard I ''attempt'' to hold myself to when editing around here as a rule, Lethosor - and also explains why some edits were marked as minor, in an attempt to '''avoid''' being blind-reverted like this, w/out apparent consideration of merit. You should both expect forum PM's about this in due course. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Resurrecting an old topic here: while I admit I haven't been monitoring the situation here very much, I've noticed that I don't always agree with some edits you make. Some are good, and I don't have opinions on some others, but some are (in my opinion) not correct - for example, the one that was reverted [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Creature_token&diff=prev&oldid=241753 here]. I don't have a particularly good policy in mind, and I don't think ''everything'' you do should be reverted by any means (so don't feel discouraged from fixing things), but I'd like to suggest that you pay closer attention to which edits are being reverted and why. Hopefully that will cut down on some editing disagreements I've seen in the recent changes list. I really don't want to make any decisions on the matter, but I think that making specific types of edits that tend to be reverted isn't productive for anyone involved (noting that this doesn't apply to a majority of your changes that I've seen, in my opinion). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Again: I don't want to have to block you, or anything like that, but [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&curid=32095&diff=247303&oldid=247296 this sort of edit] is not okay. If you have a disagreement with another editor, take it up with them; don't engage in edit wars, particularly not with edit summaries like that. (Note that I have not been very active as of recently, so I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the entire situation to do anything yet - maybe that was just one of a handful of problematic edits. [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Murky_pool&diff=next&oldid=247304 This one] is definitely okay, for instance. But please try to avoid the sorts of edits that are apparently getting reverted regularly.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

From AIV, my thoughts on your four edits that were reverted by Loci today:
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Meat_industry&diff=prev&oldid=247436]: I think the revert was appropriate - although the original edit wasn't malicious, the section title that you removed was useful for readability, and the section seems to be entirely about wild animals. Perhaps nesting this section under "Breeding" would have been better. The comment about mods also wasn't really necessary - you can mod pretty much anything in DF, and listing all the possibilities everywhere would just clutter things up.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Equipment&diff=prev&oldid=247438]: the second "each" is technically necessary, since each marksdwarf ''and'' each hunter needs a quiver. Granted, I think it's clear what the sentence means without it, but it shouldn't have been removed. Also, "flimflammery" in the edit summary is not helpful - in general, your edit summaries could stand to be shorter and clearer about what you're actually changing, which might help avoid some annoyances when others look over them.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=247437&oldid=247435] - I think both the previous version and yours were confusing, so I tried to reword it myself. (Basically, you're right that dwarves can't view bodies that fell into magma, but they ''can'' view bodies that are in stockpiles, so saying that viewing bodies only applied to bodies left on the ground wasn't right.) A [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Coffin&diff=236737&oldid=236421 very similar edit] that you made had also been reverted, though. I'm suspecting that you just forgot about that, since it was so long ago, but in general, reintroducing changes that have already been reverted could be considered edit warring, which is not something I want to deal with.
* [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Armor&diff=prev&oldid=247439]: the core disagreement seems to be around singular "they" (mentioned in another section on your talk page). In my book, this is a personal preference. Since your changes have led to some disagreements, I'm going to ask you to avoid changing any existing content related to singular "they" (this applies to things that use it and things that don't). This applies to other users too. I think this is the simplest way to avoid behavior that could be considered edit warring.
—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

And Silverwing235 makes answer:

1: ''"Perhaps nesting this section under "Breeding" would have been better."'' Something along those lines was what I was trying to do, and thought I had done, before 'Loci, Vandalfinder Mod' came along with their reverts (Not that I want anyone to take on that role with regards to me in particular, it's rather annoying - please do assume apologies when necessary).

2: ''"Also, "flimflammery" in the edit summary is not helpful"'' IOW, refrain from scribbling in the margins, or mental ''ngathsesh'', as the dwarves would have it, yeah, got it. One can only try, anyway.

3 & 4: Not much to say here, other than: thanks for the assist and I '''wholeheartedly agree''' with you about the personal preference thing? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:54, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

== Singular they ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Need&curid=35157&diff=239015&oldid=239014 this edit]:

General use of "they" as an ungendered singular pronoun is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Acceptability_and_prescriptive_guidance controversial]. If you feel compelled to remove the gendered pronoun, common advice is to reword the sentence to avoid the appearance of pronoun disagreement. In this case:

: The better focused a dwarf is, the swifter she finishes all her tasks.

could be rewritten as:

: The better focused your dwarves are, the swifter they finish their tasks.

: A focused dwarf finishes tasks more swiftly.

It is generally easy to alter the wording, and always better than swapping one acceptable-yet-problematic form for a different acceptable-yet-problematic form that you happen to prefer.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 00:51, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

== Just in case people are wondering why.... ==

...such things as talk pages with topic 'Verification page/verification' and 'ignore this' are popping up, the answer should be obvious if it wasn't already - preparation. That, and that my particular 'style' leads me to not be a fan of unnecessary redlinks - something like Occam's Razor, really. :D --[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 10:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== Grammar ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=v0.31:Temple&curid=13741&diff=239647&oldid=236295 this edit]:

That's not a "sentence fragment"; it's an [[wikipedia:appositive|appositive]], a restatement of a noun for clarification.

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Siege&diff=prev&oldid=239648 this edit]:

Adverbs are comma-offset when they apply to the sentence as a whole, not the active verb. Since "usually" is plausibly modifying "are", the added comma is incorrect.

Incidentally, these are good examples why inserting every possible comma is problematic. Commas can change the meaning of a sentence, and that possibility makes it more difficult to parse comma-saturated sentences.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

== Egg production editing shenanigans ==

I have a deep feeling that guy is right, about the kobolds at least. I shouldn't have removed that much stuff from the original table anyway. Yes, I plan on reverting that, this time also adding giant animals & animal people, max age column, and sorting out the rest in a coherent way, just give me some time. The original edit took me nearly 2 hours. [[User:DarklingArcher|DarklingArcher]] ([[User talk:DarklingArcher|talk]]) 14:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

== Let's not stress about [[DF2014:Stress]] ==

Regarding [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Stress&curid=33889&diff=240383&oldid=240376 this edit]

* ''talking with the spouse''
:* In my opinion, "the" means here that the person in question is talking with his/her spouse (not just with any spouse), so it may be justified.

* ''caught in a freakish weather''
:* While I admit this is wrong ("weather" is uncountable), I would keep it the original way as it is consistent with [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Community Portal|Rule G]] and doesn't seem ''that'' jarring to me.

* ''grim satisfaction at somebody's death''
:* This appears when you kill people in adventurer mode
:* So it's not about ''seeing'' somebody's death, but causing it yourself

* And the two typos you found were actually mine, feel free to correct these if you find more. I haven't seen Toady make typos ''yet''. --[[User:DarklingArcher|DarklingArcher]] ([[User talk:DarklingArcher|talk]]) 15:00, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

== *thumbsup*==
[http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Hair&curid=31316&diff=241238&oldid=241227 This] just so happens to be kind of the direction I was going anyway. Thanks. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 19:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for removing things where people confused entities with creatures. ive been seeing people on the forum confusing the two lately and like it when teh wiki sticks to what Tarn actually calls things [[Special:Contributions/35.191.3.215|35.191.3.215]]

== public/private articles ==
So, you've enjoyed a continuity around here that I lost, hoping you could give me your spin on what is "policy" in this regard. Came across the article [[Cacame Awemedinade]], and it strikes me as pure vanity, something that belongs under a Username/<article> rather than in the public space. Yes, there is a long forum thread behind it, but that, alone, doesn't seem apt justification - or is it? Or has this one just been grandfathered in, but similar posts are discouraged? Either way. [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] ([[User talk:Albedo|talk]]) 13:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
:My impression is that it's notable enough (or was at the time it was written), similar to [[Boatmurdered]]. I would personally be fine with keeping it, but would discourage creating many similar pages, particularly for newer and less historically-relevant content. (This discussion might also be more suitable for the article's talk page.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, since it was started here, we may as well finish it - or attempt to do so, at least. I concur with Lethosor's view on this. I also concur on the notion of moving any further similar matters to appropriate talk pages - this being the first time I've had to deal with something outside my pay grade like this (came on around 43.05 and quickly restricted myself to copy editing and "janitorial" work (spelling, grammar, etc)). [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 14:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
* Works for me, tho' BoatMurdered is, at least for me, on a whole diff level. I placed the discussion here (rather than there) b/c it was more a question re "general policy" and editorial SOP, rather than one applicable solely to that one article. [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] ([[User talk:Albedo|talk]]) 07:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

== Official complaints in AiV - oh dear. ==

(https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Administrative_intervention_against_vandalism&curid=19125&diff=256647&oldid=255758)...this is the first time, I must say, that my edits always being marked as minor had specifically been called out (be it known, anyone else with that issue can either be referred here, or check their own user profile settings for the relevant option - when I started here from my similar-named Bay12 account, I didn't intend to continually make public, non-hideable announcements of ''spelling and grammar corrections'' or the like.) There has, however, very recently been quite a bit of... overreach, I suppose, in that context. Continually chasing after 'ghost' run-on sentences despite somewhat overly subtly-worded orders to desist, was almost certainly particularly unwise, for which I apologise, and shall henceforth strive to not repeat (not that I'm sure that's what the complainant wants, anyway - AIUI, I'm being painted as some kind of menace to the wiki, quite needlessly IMHO 'the 'style be dammed' comment in one of my edits was actually me getting pretty annoyed with the revert-flavoured saboteur, as people will do with these things. Irregardless of fault, Lethosor, my sincere apologies for that... edit mini-war, I think?) [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 22:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

:I see you've beaten me to starting a discussion on this. In this particular case, I do think you identified a run-on that could be improved in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256644&oldid=256643], but I think your fixes might have changed the meaning of the sentence. I'm still not sure about this particular case myself, honestly. This was close enough to an "edit war" to make me concerned, so I would suggest that you either attempt to find an alternative way of rewording sentences when this happens (as opposed to redoing simple edits that have been reverted) or taking the discussion to the talk page. For example, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Justice&diff=256648&oldid=256645] clears up the original confusion I had about where to split the sentence in this case. Also, blank edit summaries or summaries like "fix scuff-up" or "scrub nonsense" aren't necessarily clear to other editors without more context. Something like "fixed run-on" or "clarified that the plot involves theft, not the agent" would give editors a better idea of what you were trying to fix, and hopefully make it easier to identify a better compromise if they don't think your edit was correct. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:08, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

:Calling another editor a “saboteur” is uncivil, plain and simple. '''—'''[[User:Sriefmadsakzro|'''οɼѕаk''']] 20:46, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Administrative intervention against vandalism

2021-02-13T20:38:43Z

Sriefmadsakzro:

Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Administrative intervention against vandalism

2021-02-13T20:37:08Z

Sriefmadsakzro:

Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Administrative intervention against vandalism

2021-02-13T20:21:34Z

Sriefmadsakzro:

Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Administrative intervention against vandalism

2021-02-13T20:17:00Z

Sriefmadsakzro: /* Reports */

Justice

2021-02-11T21:57:20Z

Sriefmadsakzro: Simplified the blurb about espionage.

{{Quality|Exceptional|02:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)}}{{av}}

[[File:dwarf_justice.png|thumb|300px|right|When you forget the Baron's demands for 3 flutes. ''Art by gustav_black'']]'''Justice''' is available in the game once a [[Sheriff]] or [[captain of the guard]] has been appointed through the [[Noble|{{k|n}}obles]] screen, and is used to deal with dwarves violating mandates, breaking furniture, starting fights, etc. The dwarven justice screen shows details of crimes and punishments, and is available through the {{k|z}}-status screen (even if no nobles are appointed yet).

==Crimes==
* '''Violation of Production Order''' - failing to produce items [[mandate]]d by a [[noble]].
* '''Violation of Export Prohibition''' - selling items to a caravan which a [[noble]] forbade exporting.
* '''Violation of Job Order''' - failing to complete [[guild]] jobs [[mandate]]d by the [[mayor]] (currently does not happen).
* '''Conspiracy to Slow Labor''' - deliberately slowing down the workflow of the fortress by delaying jobs (currently does not happen)
* '''Murder''' - killing a fellow dwarf or tame [[animal]]; alternatively, being caught [[vampire|sucking blood]] out of another dwarf.
* '''Disorderly Conduct''', '''Building destruction''', '''Vandalism''' - attacking another dwarf, destroying a [[building]], or toppling [[furniture]] or [[door]]s during a [[tantrum]].
* '''Theft''' - a dwarf stole an [[artifact]]
* '''Espionage''' - an [[agent]] infiltrated your fortress as a [[visitor]] as part of a larger plot (for example, to steal an [[artifact]], or to corrupt a [[noble]]).

If a [[vampire]] is caught feeding on another dwarf, even if the victim survives, it is still considered a murder. The vampire will typically make a false report, to try to frame another dwarf. Witnesses will also sometimes make false reports to try and frame dwarves they have [[grudge]]s against.

In some cases, the player has to convict a criminal or suspect, in others, criminals are convicted without player input. In case of mandate infractions, the player is generally not asked for input, while murderers must be convicted by the player. Practically anybody can be blamed for a murder, including tame animals and long-dead persons. The fort population will feel [[Thought#Justice|affronted]] at particularly nonsensical convictions.

"Violating an export ban" happens when a banned item is sold to a merchant and a merchant leaves the map with it. In this case, the criminal is NOT the trader who authorized the sale, but the hapless hauler who brought the good to the trade depot. It can happens when a noble decides to ban an export '''after''' you've already traded away a relevant item. Yeah, that's lame, but one way to mitigate it is to not perform trades unless there is an active mandate, and then obey it. You'll have a lower risk of the noble making a NEW mandate between the time merchants arrive and depart if one is already in place. If you've sold an item that subsequently becomes banned, but the merchants haven't left yet, you can also eat your pride and pay to buy it back.

If your dwarves start throwing [[tantrum]]s, then you'll see the harsher crimes, as they let off steam by throwing items around, breaking furniture, toppling doors, and punching fellow dwarves who are just trying to clean up the mess - instead of punches, sometimes, they may use the weapons they're carrying. Suddenly, keeping those axe lords happy seems a bit more high priority, eh?

==Punishments==
Dwarves who misbehave can receive punishments if a sheriff has been assigned. In increasing order of severity (at least that's what your dwarves think):
# Beating by a [[fortress guard]] (more dangerous than it sounds, see below)
# Imprisonment for a period of time.
# Hammering by the [[Hammerer]].
The punishment for a crime, or series of crimes, will be issued by the Sheriff or by a member of the Fortress Guard. If the crime calls for imprisonment, then the guard will try to put the prisoner in [[jail]]; if no jails are available, the guard will "downgrade" the punishment to a beating, giving the criminal a happy thought and the injured party (i.e. the dwarf injured by the criminal, if one exists) an unhappy thought. If the crime calls for hammer strikes, then the Hammerer will attach the prisoner to a restraint before carrying out the sentence; if no justice restraints are available, the punishment will be downgraded to a beating. All punishments will give the criminal an unhappy thought (and the guard/Hammerer a happy thought).

Note that it is usually not a good idea to train your guards to physical perfection if you want your dwarves to survive beatings:
Punches to the head have a very high fatality rate, possibly due to a bug {{bug|2907}}. Therefore it is wise to ensure that any criminals scheduled for beating are fitted with a metal helm as quickly as possible (if you want them to live). Even without headstrikes, beatings can easily result in broken bones or organ damage, making prison sentences a less risky option.

Punishments are performed sequentially; a criminal who has been sentenced to jail time ''and'' a hammering will not be hammered until the entire jail term has been served.

==Interrogation==
Dwarves can also be interrogated as the suspects of crimes, in which case they are escorted by the Captain of the Guard to their office and questioned. If the interrogation is successful (as determined by the Captain's various social skills, along with the target's) the target will confess what they know, whether that is a crime they themselves have committed or their membership of a particular scheming or other villainous organisation, and possibly the names of other members of said organisations; the results are detailed in a [[report]].
Interrogating an innocent dwarf does not have any negative effects, so if you're unsure of a culprit, you could interrogate the entire fort without any repercussions other than lost work time.

==Cages and Chains==
Metal cages, metal chains, and ropes can be built and designated as [[jail]]s ({{k|q}}uery -> make a {{k|r}}oom -> use for {{k|j}}ustice), where dwarves can be imprisoned for a time as part of their punishment. A dwarf throwing a tantrum may destroy restraints (even metal ones) and escape, leading to further punishment (for building destruction).

It is also strongly recommended to use chains, not cages for imprisonment: dwarves on chains are still free to move one step in any direction, allowing them to keep themselves fed and hydrated when food and booze stockpiles or wells are placed adjacent to the chain. Dwarves in cages are entirely dependent on the assistance of others.

==Happiness management==
A dwarf that is carelessly tied up in a dank dungeon is subject to several unhappy thoughts. Most can be avoided or offset with some care:

Putting food and booze stockpiles right next to the chain allows for happy thoughts from both instead of having to drink water when (if) someone finally brings some. Decorating your jail with numerous valuable engravings and furniture is helpful too. This includes the chain itself -- prisoners will be happier being shackled with a shiny [[diamond]]-[[decoration|encrusted]] [[gold]] chain than tied up with a boring old [[pig tail]] rope. Finally, with a bed and a table next to a chair all within a square of the chain itself, negative thoughts approach zero.

==Backlog==
Crimes do not seem to lapse, so if you've delayed appointing the "executive" nobles for some time, there might be a long list of delinquents and open sentences pending. The law will swiftly proceed to chaining up all delinquents and, once all chains are occupied, beating up any remaining free "criminals". Therefore, beatings are avoided only by constructing restraints first, and possibly way more than recommended in the z-screen.

==Exemption==

Creatures are exempt from the justice system if they are any of the following:

* Dead
* [[Insane]]
* In a [[strange mood]]
* A [[child]] or a [[baby]]
* Not a dwarf (to exclude animals)
* A local position holder with {{token|PUNISHMENT_EXEMPTION}}

{{D for Dwarf}}

In the Dwarven justice system, the Dwarves are oppressed by two separate yet equally obstinate nobles: the sheriff, who investigates crimes, and the hammerer, who beats the living %#(* out of the offenders. These are their stories.

"Thank god i only got assigned a long-term jail time followed by a hammering. My partner in crime was assigned to a guard beating, poor bastard's head got pulped after one punch." -Urist Mc. Murderhobo.

{{Translation| dwarven = imketh | elvish = leÿa | goblin = aka | human = takru}}

{{Category|Justice}}
[[ru:Justice]]