https://dwarffortresswiki.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=GarrieIrons&feedformat=atomDwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T08:20:47ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.11https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Immigration&diff=253663Immigration2020-06-27T10:35:01Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Expelling migrants */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Quality|Exceptional|22:13, 16 November 2019 (UTC)}}<br />
{{av}}<br />
<br />
'''Immigration''' can occur at any time, once per [[season]]. Smaller migrant waves of 2-10 arrive in the early seasons, followed by a large wave in the low double digits in the second spring, one year after embark (the maximum wave size reported to date is [http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/q580c/hole_shit 77] <sup>[https://archive.is/Wbp37/a5dc158a51bc238bc9441f06c10a3540eac8124c.png archive]</sup>). Each group of migrants will often include such things as [[child]]ren and domestic animals, including both pets and stray livestock. Be prepared with adequate [[food]], [[alcohol|drink]], and [[bed]]s, among other things. <br />
<br />
Migrants will often have skills that match your fortress' needs &mdash; migrants with skills your fortress uses a lot or skills that your fortress doesn't have at all are more likely to show up at your gates. Important skills (mining, food production, and basic crafting, according to Toady) are weighed more heavily than other skills.<sup>[http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_12_transcript.html Source] {{dot}} [http://www.bay12games.com/media/Dwarf_Fortress_Talk_12.mp3 MP3]</sup><br />
<br />
Migration waves are generally a good thing &mdash; if you're prepared for them.<br />
<br />
== Labor preferences ==<br />
<br />
Each migrant can arrive with a wide collection of often unrelated skills, far greater than possible with one of the [[starting build|starting 7 dwarves]], and [[experience]] levels as high as Legendary.<br />
Any and all skills might be represented, including obscure military skills (like [[blowgunner]]), high levels of one or more [[social skill]]s, [[crutch walker]], [[concentration]] and others. It's even possible to have dwarves with skills that may not be obtainable in fortress mode like [[tracker|tracking]].<br />
<br />
Migrants may also arrive with equipment matching their skills. For example, a miner migrant may bring a [[pick]] with them. Migrants may arrive with all labors except [[hauling]], [[cleaning]], recovering wounded, and caring for wounded disabled, depending on the settings one has entered into [[d_init.txt]].<br />
<br />
== Historical migrants ==<br />
<br />
Some immigrants are [[historical figure]]s. These immigrants come to your fortress with skills representing their history, and may come to your fortress with wounds they have suffered during [[world generation]]. Immigrants may even be [[vampire]]s or [[werebeast]]s.<br />
<br />
Currently, [[agent]]s (spies) from your own civilization will retain their assumed identities when they migrate to your fortress.{{bug|10490}} This results in immigrants with odd professions like [[peddler]], [[prophet]], and [[poet]] that 'override' their automatically-assigned professions. These immigrants are still loyal to your civilization (at least for now) and should behave normally aside from a few minor bugs (like changing names while on a [[mission]]{{bug|10928}}).<br />
<br />
==Limiting/preventing immigration==<br />
In v0.40.05 and above, the [[d_init.txt]] POPULATION_CAP setting immediately prevents further immigration once the desired number is achieved, bypassing the two hardcoded migrant waves. There is also a STRICT_POPULATION_CAP setting, which prevents both immigration and babies when reached (although both can be violated by a few special cases, such as the arrival of a [[monarch]]). Keep in mind that your population must be at least 80 to get a king and 100 to obtain the current game features.<br />
<br />
The number of migrants depends on the [[wealth|created wealth]] of your fortress and so is affected by your dwarves' activities. Note that if your fortress should ever become a mountainhome, you will receive an additional migration wave with the promotion, regardless of your population cap. The number of migrants is affected by how far below the population cap your fortress is. If your fortress is one dwarf short of the cap, you will receive a single migrant (if any). Also note that population cap will not remove dwarves from an existing fortress but will prevent new ones from immigrating or being born.<br />
<br />
It is worth noting that you need a certain minimum population size before any of your dwarves will experience [[strange mood]]s. Additionally, POPULATION_CAP affects only migration, it has no effect on pregnancies. You will need to alter STRICT_POPULATION_CAP in order to limit births.<br />
<br />
To reiterate, the population cap is a (mostly) hard limit on the number of dwarves in your fortress. If you want a fortress with 50 dwarves, simply set the POPULATION_CAP and STRICT_POPULATION_CAP to 50.<br />
<br />
==Immigration mechanics==<br />
The date on which immigrants appear in a season seems to be fixed at the start of that season, but the number of immigrants and their skills are determined when the migrant wave arrives.<br />
<br />
There is never a migration in the first winter - literally not even a {{DFtext|The fortress attracted no migrants this season|6:0:0}} message.<br />
<br />
Migrant skill levels seem to depend on the size of the home civilization; a difference will be noticed if you picked a dwarven civilization that was not well established (few towns or none) compared to a well established one.<br />
<br />
==Migrant wave sizes==<br />
The first two migrant waves have a minimum size of 1, if a wave member has a relative in your group already, and a maximum size of 10. The size of these waves are unaffected by fortress wealth, danger, or even the extinction of their home civilization. Note that there may be various reasons for a hardcoded migrant wave to not show up, like if it was blocked by a siege or if is not the first fort in the world.{{Cite talk/this}}<br />
<br />
The third migrant wave and on are influenced by the [[wealth|created wealth]] of the fortress, with more wealth attracting more immigrants (more research is needed to determine specifics). Specifically, they're influenced by the fortress wealth as reported by the last outgoing dwarven [[caravan]]. Wealth created after the caravan leaves has no influence until the next year's caravan leaves. If the caravan fails to make it out then the fortress' wealth is not reported. If the dwarven [[liason]] makes it out, but the caravan doesn't, the liaison does not report on fortress wealth.<br />
<br />
Imported wealth, caravan sales figures, absolute caravan profit and caravan profit margin either have no effect on migration numbers, or only have an effect by applying a percent modification to the numbers driven by created wealth. If a fortress manages to [[trading|trade]] (not offer) away 100% of its created wealth, then no immigrants will come the next season. More research is needed to determine if the aforementioned statistics have any influence on migration numbers.<br />
<br />
One factor which is known to affect migrant wave size is the total size of your fortress's {{k|u}}nits list (all 4 categories), which consists of dwarves, invaders, merchants, and animals which either died or currently live at your fortress. As this number increases, the maximum size of migrant waves will be reduced: starting at a local population of 1000, migrant wave sizes are limited to 10, and at subsequent levels of 1300, 1600, 1800, 2000, 2200, 2400, 2600, 2800, and 2900, the limit is decreased by 1, and once you reach a local population of 3000 you will cease to get migrants at all.<br />
<br />
Kurik Amudnil created a DFHack script to prevent the latter from happening, by clearing (and storing, so that it can be restored as wanted) the dead units list of uninteresting creatures. It is available [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91166.msg4336893#msg4336893 here] and is also included in the [[Utility:Lazy_Newb_Pack|Lazy Newb Pack]].<br />
<br />
==Adventure mode==<br />
In certain locations in [[adventure mode]], you may come across a '''Migrating Group'''. One such location is near a recently [[abandon|abandoned]] [[fortress]]; choosing to travel to the group will allow you to talk to the members of your former fortress as they travel back to dwarven civilization.<br />
<br />
==Fortress Failure Migration==<br />
If a fortress is abandoned during [[unhappy]], [[insanity|stark raving mad]] times the citizens can migrate to your new fortress still stark raving mad (berserk possibly, further looking into required). Likewise, if your fortress happened to have any [[Husk|husks]] when it was abandoned, some of them may migrate to your new fortress.<br />
<br />
==Deterring migrants==<br />
<br />
A different message for migrant arrivals will be triggered depending on your fortress' dangerousness. That number isn't actually a death count, but some sort of composite "fear" value determined by adding up a bunch of sources and dividing them by various amounts. It is not sure exactly what those sources are, but at least one of them is a death count. 0-9 is normal, 10+ is "danger" or "dangerous", and 50+ is "cursed death trap" or "tomb".<br />
<br />
==Expelling migrants==<br />
Undesirable migrants can be targetted for "[[emigration]]" from their individual prefences screen.<br />
<br />
==Bugs==<br />
Also, some migrants will be incorrectly listed as babies or children, when they are not in the expected age range for those categories. This will automatically fix itself when they have their next birthday. Some baby migrants may have future birth dates. {{Bug|3945}}<br />
<br />
If your fortress does not have a meeting hall, you might have a situation where a single migrant can't find the fort and just stands at the edge of the map, not moving at all. You may notice that, even if more migrants are part of the wave, they cannot enter the map (and do not show up on the units screen) until this migrant moves out of the square, as all migrants in a single wave must enter the map through this square.<br />
<br />
<br />
==The Migrant Tier List==<br />
{{D for Dwarf}}<br />
<br />
When a migrant wave arrives, players should stop what they are doing and check the migrants' skills to see what they may offer to their fortress. Here, migrants are sorted into tiers, roughly ordered by usefulness to a mid-to-high-level fort. Do note that even F-tier migrants can be useful if a player decides to make them so, and of course any migrant can find employment as a [[haul]]er or a [[soldier]], or may train useful skills over time.<br />
<br />
"Valuable" skills can be thought of in three categories - those that produce better [[quality]] items, those that perform tasks faster or more efficiently, and those that simply cannot be done unskilled, such as medical tasks. Remember that, when the dust clears, the most valuable skill a dwarf can have is the one that your fortress needs the most. <br />
<br />
==== Valued Migrants (A) ====<br />
Some skills are central to most fortresses, either by improving the quality of critical items or by providing irreplaceable services. These migrants can improve a fort simply by showing up. <br />
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Also known as "can I give them a [[mood]] please?".<br />
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*[[Weaponsmith]]s: Speak softly, but carry a [[war hammer|big stick]]. If you have an excess of [[weapon]]s, you can also use weaponsmiths to make extremely high-value [[trap components]].<br />
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*[[Armorsmith]]s: Perhaps even more useful than weaponsmiths.<br />
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*[[Soldier]]s: Who doesn't need extra <s>meat shields</s> dwarfpower? If you don't have any soldiers yet, you can form your militia, and if your militia is already well-developed, they can act as reservists, in case something [[Fun]] happens to the militia.<br />
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*[[Grower]]s: Skilled growers can improve farm efficiency exponentially, as one skilled grower can easily outperform more than a dozen unskilled laborers (see the article for more information), freeing them for other tasks. A true force multiplier.<br />
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*[[Mechanic]]s: High-quality [[mechanism]]s don't jam when used in traps, and make great trade goods.<br />
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*[[Cook]]s: Will quickly boost your fortress's value, and dwarves just adore fine meals, keeping up morale.<br />
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==== Good Migrants (B) ====<br />
Put these dwarves to work, they have much to contribute. <br />
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Also known as "stalwarts of the fort".<br />
<br />
*[[Miner]]s: Always helpful unless your fortress is ''very'' well developed. A high mining skill can also be useful in combat.<br />
<br />
*[[Blacksmith]]s: These dwarves make [[metal]] (not just [[iron]]) [[furniture]] and other large products, including valuable metal [[statue]]s, which can boost the value of rooms and improve morale. How else are you going to immortalize your militia's valiant battle against that ferocious [[Titan|forest titan]]?<br />
<br />
*[[Carpenter]]s: Like blacksmiths, but they use [[wood]] instead of metal. Only source of quality [[bed]]s and some newer items, like [[display case]]s and [[Instrument|musical instrument]]s. Also, only leather shields are lighter than wood. Wooden [[trap components]] can also be useful as a trade good if other industries haven't been developed yet.<br />
<br />
*[[Mason]]s: Most fortresses can't afford to make every piece of furniture out of metal or wood. Stone is the traditional dwarven option, though it is a bit lacking in value as a material.<br />
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*[[Metalcrafter]]s: You may not want to fill the next caravan with *[[silver]] mugs* and other metal [[finished goods]], but making ≡gold [[chain]]s)≡ for your guard animals and exotic pets is pretty dwarfy.<br />
<br />
*[[Stonecrafter]]s: Making [[finished goods|trade goods]] for the caravan out of [[stone]] is a great way to kick-start trade, since [[metal]] and [[wood]] are often needed elsewhere. And real dwarves drink out of [[goblet|≡stone mugs≡]], not glass goblets or wooden cups or whatever.<br />
<br />
*[[Engraver]]s: Engraving isn't usually needed in a new fort, but is a huge boost in value and good thoughts in a mature one. A good engraver can smooth and detail a large [[room]] in ''minutes'', shooting its [[Room#Quality|quality]] sky-high, while a novice might take hours. Novice engravers also can take quite a while to train.<br />
<br />
*[[Brewer]]s: Should be obvious. Alcohol doesn't have a quality level but the increase in production speed skilled brewers provide is never unwelcome.<br />
<br />
*[[Healthcare]]: Skilled medical dwarves are irreplaceable for trying to save that one beloved soldier.<br />
<br />
*[[Leatherworker]]s: [[Leather]] can craft certain items that cannot be created sensibly with any other material, such as [[backpack]]s, [[quiver]]s, [[flask|waterskins]], and lightweight [[shield]]s (for all) and [[armor]] (for Hunters). Unless, of course, you're using [[adamantine]].<br />
<br />
==== Niche Migrants (C) ====<br />
These migrants can be useful, but usually only in very specific cases, or for only a few tasks - if your fortress is focusing in that area, they fit in the above category, but if not then they are just as valuable as peasants (see next category). <br />
<br />
Also known as "it ain't much, but it's honest work".<br />
<br />
*[[Furnace operator]]s, [[Miller]]s, [[Thresher]]s: None of these labors have quality levels, but the increase in production speed can be highly profitable for a [[metal]], [[flour]] or [[textile industry]], respectively.<br />
<br />
*[[Glassmaker]]s, [[Potter]]s, and [[Glazer]]s: You've either got sand/clay (and care about it), or you don't. Glassmakers can produce a wide variety of products, such [[crafts]], [[furniture]], [[trap component|large weapons for traps]] and [[screw pump]]s, out of glass, and these products are often worth much more than their stone/wood counterparts. Potters are less versatile but can also make valuable products for a decently low manufacturing price. Glazers complement potters and are needed to make their pots airtight and waterproof, allowing for liquid storage, and a good glaze job can add a lot of value to a product. Note that glassmakers and potters require [[sand]] or [[clay]] (respectively), and in large quantities to be truly effective, but these resources are basically infinite on embarks that contain them. <br />
<br />
*[[Gem cutter]]s and [[Gem setter]]s: They just don't produce as much value as you'd expect, unless the gem cutter is of a high enough skill level. Training gem cutters so they don't waste your rough valuable gems with poor cuts is also quite tedious. Even then, [[gem]]s are only useful for moods, decorations, or as a trade good. As for gem setters, [[encrust]]ing is notoriously finicky, since the item to be decorated cannot be specified. So your gem setter will probably end up slapping your Masterwork cut [[diamond]] cabochons on a [[barrel]] or something. <br />
<br />
*[[Herbalist]]s: Herbology can be a great way to kick-start an above-ground farm, or at least keep your food and booze supply nice and varied. Even dwarves can get sick of drinking the same old [[plump helmet|mushroom]] wine.<br />
<br />
*[[Beekeeper]]s, [[Wax worker]]s, and [[Presser]]s: Beekeeping is [[Beekeeping industry|interesting]], but it isn't possible in [[biome]]s that lack [[honey bee]]s (and note that [[bumblebee]]s cannot be<s>e</s> domesticated). If you do get a beekeeping business going, wax workers and pressers become viable as well, since they use the products of beekeeping in their labors; otherwise, they're basically useless. <br />
<br />
*[[Hunter]]s: They usually come with a good [[marksdwarf]] skill, but immediately go hunting as soon as they're able to, causing possible [[fun]]. They can be useful if handled properly, and are definitely entertaining to watch, but it may be advantageous to just rely on your [[military]] for hunting game, since [[squad]]s can be controlled more finely than hunters, and are probably less likely to get themselves injured in the process. <br />
<br />
*[[Fisherdwarf]]s, [[Fish cleaner]]s: Fishing is a decent source of food, and it's a great source of the elusive [[shell]]s if your site contains [[pond turtle]]s, but it runs the risk of [[crocodile]] accidents and [[carp|other perils]]. Or, if you're unlucky, you'll get absolutely nothing. Fisherdwarves can also only catch [[vermin]] fish; [[sperm whale|larger sea creatures]] require [[drowning chamber]]s or other tactics.<br />
<br />
*[[Siege engineer]]s and [[Siege operator]]s: Would be useful, but [[siege engine]]s are currently bugged, dealing much less damage than you'd expect, and they're often extremely dangerous to your own citizens when they do work as intended.<br />
<br />
*[[Bone carver]]s: [[Bone]] is neither valuable (unless the creature was a [[megabeast]] or was [[elephant|very exotic]]), nor does it fulfill a particular niche, but it is a rather common alternative to wood, especially for practice bolts for [[marksdwarf|marksdwarves]].<br />
<br />
*[[Dyer]]s: Skilled Dyers can add extra value to dyed cloth, as it does have a quality level, but unless your fort is dependent on its [[textile industry]], when was the last time you dyed cloth? <br />
<br />
* [[Butcher]]s, [[Tanner]]s, [[Gelder]]s, [[Animal trainer]]s: While these labors can be pivotal to a fort's usage of animals, you really won't need more than one of these dwarves unless your meat industry is truly booming, and very often one dwarf can cover multiple of these jobs.<br />
<br />
* [[Potash maker]]s, [[Lye maker]]s, [[Soaper]]s, [[Wood burner]]s, [[Pump operator]]s, [[Woodcutter]]s, [[Milker]]s, [[Cheesemaker]]s: The products of these labors do not have quality levels, so the only difference between an unskilled laborer and a highly skilled one is production speed, which is really only critical if said products are the backbone of your industry ([[Stupid dwarf trick|and who specializes in ''soapmaking''?]]). Note that many of these products cannot be sourced from [[caravan]]s, which makes domestic production a necessity, but still is not something needed "full time", or even close.<br />
<br />
*[[Woodcrafter]]s: Not to be confused with [[carpenter]]s, these dwarves mostly just make [[useless crap]] and [[Instrument|musical instrument]]s out of [[wood]]. Show the elves what we think of their wood! <br />
<br />
*[[Bookbinder]]s, [[Papermaker]]s, [[Weaver]]s, [[Shearer]]s, [[Clothier]]s: It's often much easier just to obtain [[codex]]es, [[paper]], [[cloth]], and [[clothes]] from the caravan and migrants instead of producing them yourself, since these industries are very complex and require much setup.<br />
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*[[Strand extractor]]s: Skilled strand extractors are quick, and unskilled strand extraction is ''agonizingly'' slow. They're only useful after [[raw adamantine]] has been discovered and mined, and the strands do not have quality levels.<br />
<br />
==== Useless Migrants (F)====<br />
Yes, "F" - they're that bad. <br />
<br />
Also known as either "free military conscripts" or "can I toss them in the [[volcano]] now, please?", depending.<br />
<br />
*[[Peasant]]s are not ''entirely'' useless, they're more like blank slates. Peasants can be trained in a [[mood]]able skill to control the [[artifact]]s your fortress will produce, and they make perfectly good [[haul]]ers or [[military]] trainees if you just ignore those pointless peasantish skills.<br />
<br />
*[[Animal dissector]]s and [[Fish dissector]]s: They make animal [[extract]]s, which currently are some of the most useless items in the game.<br />
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*[[Bowyer]]s: Bowyers make [[crossbow]]s out of wood and bone... that's all. Weaponsmiths can do everything bowyers can do, except better, because heavier metallic crossbows are superior as blunt weapons in close quarters.<br />
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*[[Trapper]]s: These dwarves make [[animal trap]]s, not [[cage]]s, which can only be used to trap [[vermin]], not large [[creature]]s. You're better off relying on [[cat]]s instead if vermin are threatening your stockpiles. These migrants often also have the marksdwarf or animal trainer skill, so their true value may lie elsewhere, unless you are seeking to trap vermin for a [[pet]].<br />
<br />
*[[Administrator]]s: By the time migrant waves start arriving, you should already have these positions covered and filled; there is very little advantage to having more than one dwarf with these skills. (The sole exception may be a new lead dwarf without any "item" preferences, so they issue no [[mandate]]s, to replace a less appropriate/desirable leader, if you are lucky enough to find the right skill set.) Also see [[unfortunate accident]].<br />
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*[[Animal caretaker]]s: Bugged at the moment and may become more useful when the bug is fixed.<br />
<br />
*[[Children]]: Cannot perform any labors. At least you'll have a [[peasant]]...in about 12 years.<br />
<br />
=== Other ===<br />
*[[Pilgrim]]s, [[Peddler]]s, [[Prophet]]s, [[Poet]]s, [[Monk]]s, [[Criminal]]s, and others: These individuals are [[agent]]s from your home [[civilization]] under a false identity due to a recently patched bug, and are usually completely benign. Determining their usefulness may require closer inspection of their skills, and killing them will reveal who they truly are.<br />
<br />
*[[Monarch]]s and their entourages: Serving as a major endgame goal, inviting these members of dwarven society comes with its own requirements and caveats, requiring a large amount of investment, labor, and time. The player can choose to never pursue this goal if they wish.<br />
<br />
{{Category|Dwarves}}<br />
{{Category|World}}<br />
[[ru:Immigration]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Immigration&diff=253662Immigration2020-06-27T10:32:57Z<p>GarrieIrons: Add Expel section</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Quality|Exceptional|22:13, 16 November 2019 (UTC)}}<br />
{{av}}<br />
<br />
'''Immigration''' can occur at any time, once per [[season]]. Smaller migrant waves of 2-10 arrive in the early seasons, followed by a large wave in the low double digits in the second spring, one year after embark (the maximum wave size reported to date is [http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/q580c/hole_shit 77] <sup>[https://archive.is/Wbp37/a5dc158a51bc238bc9441f06c10a3540eac8124c.png archive]</sup>). Each group of migrants will often include such things as [[child]]ren and domestic animals, including both pets and stray livestock. Be prepared with adequate [[food]], [[alcohol|drink]], and [[bed]]s, among other things. <br />
<br />
Migrants will often have skills that match your fortress' needs &mdash; migrants with skills your fortress uses a lot or skills that your fortress doesn't have at all are more likely to show up at your gates. Important skills (mining, food production, and basic crafting, according to Toady) are weighed more heavily than other skills.<sup>[http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_12_transcript.html Source] {{dot}} [http://www.bay12games.com/media/Dwarf_Fortress_Talk_12.mp3 MP3]</sup><br />
<br />
Migration waves are generally a good thing &mdash; if you're prepared for them.<br />
<br />
== Labor preferences ==<br />
<br />
Each migrant can arrive with a wide collection of often unrelated skills, far greater than possible with one of the [[starting build|starting 7 dwarves]], and [[experience]] levels as high as Legendary.<br />
Any and all skills might be represented, including obscure military skills (like [[blowgunner]]), high levels of one or more [[social skill]]s, [[crutch walker]], [[concentration]] and others. It's even possible to have dwarves with skills that may not be obtainable in fortress mode like [[tracker|tracking]].<br />
<br />
Migrants may also arrive with equipment matching their skills. For example, a miner migrant may bring a [[pick]] with them. Migrants may arrive with all labors except [[hauling]], [[cleaning]], recovering wounded, and caring for wounded disabled, depending on the settings one has entered into [[d_init.txt]].<br />
<br />
== Historical migrants ==<br />
<br />
Some immigrants are [[historical figure]]s. These immigrants come to your fortress with skills representing their history, and may come to your fortress with wounds they have suffered during [[world generation]]. Immigrants may even be [[vampire]]s or [[werebeast]]s.<br />
<br />
Currently, [[agent]]s (spies) from your own civilization will retain their assumed identities when they migrate to your fortress.{{bug|10490}} This results in immigrants with odd professions like [[peddler]], [[prophet]], and [[poet]] that 'override' their automatically-assigned professions. These immigrants are still loyal to your civilization (at least for now) and should behave normally aside from a few minor bugs (like changing names while on a [[mission]]{{bug|10928}}).<br />
<br />
==Limiting/preventing immigration==<br />
In v0.40.05 and above, the [[d_init.txt]] POPULATION_CAP setting immediately prevents further immigration once the desired number is achieved, bypassing the two hardcoded migrant waves. There is also a STRICT_POPULATION_CAP setting, which prevents both immigration and babies when reached (although both can be violated by a few special cases, such as the arrival of a [[monarch]]). Keep in mind that your population must be at least 80 to get a king and 100 to obtain the current game features.<br />
<br />
The number of migrants depends on the [[wealth|created wealth]] of your fortress and so is affected by your dwarves' activities. Note that if your fortress should ever become a mountainhome, you will receive an additional migration wave with the promotion, regardless of your population cap. The number of migrants is affected by how far below the population cap your fortress is. If your fortress is one dwarf short of the cap, you will receive a single migrant (if any). Also note that population cap will not remove dwarves from an existing fortress but will prevent new ones from immigrating or being born.<br />
<br />
It is worth noting that you need a certain minimum population size before any of your dwarves will experience [[strange mood]]s. Additionally, POPULATION_CAP affects only migration, it has no effect on pregnancies. You will need to alter STRICT_POPULATION_CAP in order to limit births.<br />
<br />
To reiterate, the population cap is a (mostly) hard limit on the number of dwarves in your fortress. If you want a fortress with 50 dwarves, simply set the POPULATION_CAP and STRICT_POPULATION_CAP to 50.<br />
<br />
==Immigration mechanics==<br />
The date on which immigrants appear in a season seems to be fixed at the start of that season, but the number of immigrants and their skills are determined when the migrant wave arrives.<br />
<br />
There is never a migration in the first winter - literally not even a {{DFtext|The fortress attracted no migrants this season|6:0:0}} message.<br />
<br />
Migrant skill levels seem to depend on the size of the home civilization; a difference will be noticed if you picked a dwarven civilization that was not well established (few towns or none) compared to a well established one.<br />
<br />
==Migrant wave sizes==<br />
The first two migrant waves have a minimum size of 1, if a wave member has a relative in your group already, and a maximum size of 10. The size of these waves are unaffected by fortress wealth, danger, or even the extinction of their home civilization. Note that there may be various reasons for a hardcoded migrant wave to not show up, like if it was blocked by a siege or if is not the first fort in the world.{{Cite talk/this}}<br />
<br />
The third migrant wave and on are influenced by the [[wealth|created wealth]] of the fortress, with more wealth attracting more immigrants (more research is needed to determine specifics). Specifically, they're influenced by the fortress wealth as reported by the last outgoing dwarven [[caravan]]. Wealth created after the caravan leaves has no influence until the next year's caravan leaves. If the caravan fails to make it out then the fortress' wealth is not reported. If the dwarven [[liason]] makes it out, but the caravan doesn't, the liaison does not report on fortress wealth.<br />
<br />
Imported wealth, caravan sales figures, absolute caravan profit and caravan profit margin either have no effect on migration numbers, or only have an effect by applying a percent modification to the numbers driven by created wealth. If a fortress manages to [[trading|trade]] (not offer) away 100% of its created wealth, then no immigrants will come the next season. More research is needed to determine if the aforementioned statistics have any influence on migration numbers.<br />
<br />
One factor which is known to affect migrant wave size is the total size of your fortress's {{k|u}}nits list (all 4 categories), which consists of dwarves, invaders, merchants, and animals which either died or currently live at your fortress. As this number increases, the maximum size of migrant waves will be reduced: starting at a local population of 1000, migrant wave sizes are limited to 10, and at subsequent levels of 1300, 1600, 1800, 2000, 2200, 2400, 2600, 2800, and 2900, the limit is decreased by 1, and once you reach a local population of 3000 you will cease to get migrants at all.<br />
<br />
Kurik Amudnil created a DFHack script to prevent the latter from happening, by clearing (and storing, so that it can be restored as wanted) the dead units list of uninteresting creatures. It is available [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91166.msg4336893#msg4336893 here] and is also included in the [[Utility:Lazy_Newb_Pack|Lazy Newb Pack]].<br />
<br />
==Adventure mode==<br />
In certain locations in [[adventure mode]], you may come across a '''Migrating Group'''. One such location is near a recently [[abandon|abandoned]] [[fortress]]; choosing to travel to the group will allow you to talk to the members of your former fortress as they travel back to dwarven civilization.<br />
<br />
==Fortress Failure Migration==<br />
If a fortress is abandoned during [[unhappy]], [[insanity|stark raving mad]] times the citizens can migrate to your new fortress still stark raving mad (berserk possibly, further looking into required). Likewise, if your fortress happened to have any [[Husk|husks]] when it was abandoned, some of them may migrate to your new fortress.<br />
<br />
==Deterring migrants==<br />
<br />
A different message for migrant arrivals will be triggered depending on your fortress' dangerousness. That number isn't actually a death count, but some sort of composite "fear" value determined by adding up a bunch of sources and dividing them by various amounts. It is not sure exactly what those sources are, but at least one of them is a death count. 0-9 is normal, 10+ is "danger" or "dangerous", and 50+ is "cursed death trap" or "tomb".<br />
<br />
==Expelling migrants==<br />
Undesirable migrants can be "expelled" from their individual prefences screen.<br />
Select the dwarf through the citizen list, view their Preferences, and press e to Expel. You will be prompted to confirm, and they will leave the area.<br />
<br />
==Bugs==<br />
Also, some migrants will be incorrectly listed as babies or children, when they are not in the expected age range for those categories. This will automatically fix itself when they have their next birthday. Some baby migrants may have future birth dates. {{Bug|3945}}<br />
<br />
If your fortress does not have a meeting hall, you might have a situation where a single migrant can't find the fort and just stands at the edge of the map, not moving at all. You may notice that, even if more migrants are part of the wave, they cannot enter the map (and do not show up on the units screen) until this migrant moves out of the square, as all migrants in a single wave must enter the map through this square.<br />
<br />
<br />
==The Migrant Tier List==<br />
{{D for Dwarf}}<br />
<br />
When a migrant wave arrives, players should stop what they are doing and check the migrants' skills to see what they may offer to their fortress. Here, migrants are sorted into tiers, roughly ordered by usefulness to a mid-to-high-level fort. Do note that even F-tier migrants can be useful if a player decides to make them so, and of course any migrant can find employment as a [[haul]]er or a [[soldier]], or may train useful skills over time.<br />
<br />
"Valuable" skills can be thought of in three categories - those that produce better [[quality]] items, those that perform tasks faster or more efficiently, and those that simply cannot be done unskilled, such as medical tasks. Remember that, when the dust clears, the most valuable skill a dwarf can have is the one that your fortress needs the most. <br />
<br />
==== Valued Migrants (A) ====<br />
Some skills are central to most fortresses, either by improving the quality of critical items or by providing irreplaceable services. These migrants can improve a fort simply by showing up. <br />
<br />
Also known as "can I give them a [[mood]] please?".<br />
<br />
*[[Weaponsmith]]s: Speak softly, but carry a [[war hammer|big stick]]. If you have an excess of [[weapon]]s, you can also use weaponsmiths to make extremely high-value [[trap components]].<br />
<br />
*[[Armorsmith]]s: Perhaps even more useful than weaponsmiths.<br />
<br />
*[[Soldier]]s: Who doesn't need extra <s>meat shields</s> dwarfpower? If you don't have any soldiers yet, you can form your militia, and if your militia is already well-developed, they can act as reservists, in case something [[Fun]] happens to the militia.<br />
<br />
*[[Grower]]s: Skilled growers can improve farm efficiency exponentially, as one skilled grower can easily outperform more than a dozen unskilled laborers (see the article for more information), freeing them for other tasks. A true force multiplier.<br />
<br />
*[[Mechanic]]s: High-quality [[mechanism]]s don't jam when used in traps, and make great trade goods.<br />
<br />
*[[Cook]]s: Will quickly boost your fortress's value, and dwarves just adore fine meals, keeping up morale.<br />
<br />
==== Good Migrants (B) ====<br />
Put these dwarves to work, they have much to contribute. <br />
<br />
Also known as "stalwarts of the fort".<br />
<br />
*[[Miner]]s: Always helpful unless your fortress is ''very'' well developed. A high mining skill can also be useful in combat.<br />
<br />
*[[Blacksmith]]s: These dwarves make [[metal]] (not just [[iron]]) [[furniture]] and other large products, including valuable metal [[statue]]s, which can boost the value of rooms and improve morale. How else are you going to immortalize your militia's valiant battle against that ferocious [[Titan|forest titan]]?<br />
<br />
*[[Carpenter]]s: Like blacksmiths, but they use [[wood]] instead of metal. Only source of quality [[bed]]s and some newer items, like [[display case]]s and [[Instrument|musical instrument]]s. Also, only leather shields are lighter than wood. Wooden [[trap components]] can also be useful as a trade good if other industries haven't been developed yet.<br />
<br />
*[[Mason]]s: Most fortresses can't afford to make every piece of furniture out of metal or wood. Stone is the traditional dwarven option, though it is a bit lacking in value as a material.<br />
<br />
*[[Metalcrafter]]s: You may not want to fill the next caravan with *[[silver]] mugs* and other metal [[finished goods]], but making ≡gold [[chain]]s)≡ for your guard animals and exotic pets is pretty dwarfy.<br />
<br />
*[[Stonecrafter]]s: Making [[finished goods|trade goods]] for the caravan out of [[stone]] is a great way to kick-start trade, since [[metal]] and [[wood]] are often needed elsewhere. And real dwarves drink out of [[goblet|≡stone mugs≡]], not glass goblets or wooden cups or whatever.<br />
<br />
*[[Engraver]]s: Engraving isn't usually needed in a new fort, but is a huge boost in value and good thoughts in a mature one. A good engraver can smooth and detail a large [[room]] in ''minutes'', shooting its [[Room#Quality|quality]] sky-high, while a novice might take hours. Novice engravers also can take quite a while to train.<br />
<br />
*[[Brewer]]s: Should be obvious. Alcohol doesn't have a quality level but the increase in production speed skilled brewers provide is never unwelcome.<br />
<br />
*[[Healthcare]]: Skilled medical dwarves are irreplaceable for trying to save that one beloved soldier.<br />
<br />
*[[Leatherworker]]s: [[Leather]] can craft certain items that cannot be created sensibly with any other material, such as [[backpack]]s, [[quiver]]s, [[flask|waterskins]], and lightweight [[shield]]s (for all) and [[armor]] (for Hunters). Unless, of course, you're using [[adamantine]].<br />
<br />
==== Niche Migrants (C) ====<br />
These migrants can be useful, but usually only in very specific cases, or for only a few tasks - if your fortress is focusing in that area, they fit in the above category, but if not then they are just as valuable as peasants (see next category). <br />
<br />
Also known as "it ain't much, but it's honest work".<br />
<br />
*[[Furnace operator]]s, [[Miller]]s, [[Thresher]]s: None of these labors have quality levels, but the increase in production speed can be highly profitable for a [[metal]], [[flour]] or [[textile industry]], respectively.<br />
<br />
*[[Glassmaker]]s, [[Potter]]s, and [[Glazer]]s: You've either got sand/clay (and care about it), or you don't. Glassmakers can produce a wide variety of products, such [[crafts]], [[furniture]], [[trap component|large weapons for traps]] and [[screw pump]]s, out of glass, and these products are often worth much more than their stone/wood counterparts. Potters are less versatile but can also make valuable products for a decently low manufacturing price. Glazers complement potters and are needed to make their pots airtight and waterproof, allowing for liquid storage, and a good glaze job can add a lot of value to a product. Note that glassmakers and potters require [[sand]] or [[clay]] (respectively), and in large quantities to be truly effective, but these resources are basically infinite on embarks that contain them. <br />
<br />
*[[Gem cutter]]s and [[Gem setter]]s: They just don't produce as much value as you'd expect, unless the gem cutter is of a high enough skill level. Training gem cutters so they don't waste your rough valuable gems with poor cuts is also quite tedious. Even then, [[gem]]s are only useful for moods, decorations, or as a trade good. As for gem setters, [[encrust]]ing is notoriously finicky, since the item to be decorated cannot be specified. So your gem setter will probably end up slapping your Masterwork cut [[diamond]] cabochons on a [[barrel]] or something. <br />
<br />
*[[Herbalist]]s: Herbology can be a great way to kick-start an above-ground farm, or at least keep your food and booze supply nice and varied. Even dwarves can get sick of drinking the same old [[plump helmet|mushroom]] wine.<br />
<br />
*[[Beekeeper]]s, [[Wax worker]]s, and [[Presser]]s: Beekeeping is [[Beekeeping industry|interesting]], but it isn't possible in [[biome]]s that lack [[honey bee]]s (and note that [[bumblebee]]s cannot be<s>e</s> domesticated). If you do get a beekeeping business going, wax workers and pressers become viable as well, since they use the products of beekeeping in their labors; otherwise, they're basically useless. <br />
<br />
*[[Hunter]]s: They usually come with a good [[marksdwarf]] skill, but immediately go hunting as soon as they're able to, causing possible [[fun]]. They can be useful if handled properly, and are definitely entertaining to watch, but it may be advantageous to just rely on your [[military]] for hunting game, since [[squad]]s can be controlled more finely than hunters, and are probably less likely to get themselves injured in the process. <br />
<br />
*[[Fisherdwarf]]s, [[Fish cleaner]]s: Fishing is a decent source of food, and it's a great source of the elusive [[shell]]s if your site contains [[pond turtle]]s, but it runs the risk of [[crocodile]] accidents and [[carp|other perils]]. Or, if you're unlucky, you'll get absolutely nothing. Fisherdwarves can also only catch [[vermin]] fish; [[sperm whale|larger sea creatures]] require [[drowning chamber]]s or other tactics.<br />
<br />
*[[Siege engineer]]s and [[Siege operator]]s: Would be useful, but [[siege engine]]s are currently bugged, dealing much less damage than you'd expect, and they're often extremely dangerous to your own citizens when they do work as intended.<br />
<br />
*[[Bone carver]]s: [[Bone]] is neither valuable (unless the creature was a [[megabeast]] or was [[elephant|very exotic]]), nor does it fulfill a particular niche, but it is a rather common alternative to wood, especially for practice bolts for [[marksdwarf|marksdwarves]].<br />
<br />
*[[Dyer]]s: Skilled Dyers can add extra value to dyed cloth, as it does have a quality level, but unless your fort is dependent on its [[textile industry]], when was the last time you dyed cloth? <br />
<br />
* [[Butcher]]s, [[Tanner]]s, [[Gelder]]s, [[Animal trainer]]s: While these labors can be pivotal to a fort's usage of animals, you really won't need more than one of these dwarves unless your meat industry is truly booming, and very often one dwarf can cover multiple of these jobs.<br />
<br />
* [[Potash maker]]s, [[Lye maker]]s, [[Soaper]]s, [[Wood burner]]s, [[Pump operator]]s, [[Woodcutter]]s, [[Milker]]s, [[Cheesemaker]]s: The products of these labors do not have quality levels, so the only difference between an unskilled laborer and a highly skilled one is production speed, which is really only critical if said products are the backbone of your industry ([[Stupid dwarf trick|and who specializes in ''soapmaking''?]]). Note that many of these products cannot be sourced from [[caravan]]s, which makes domestic production a necessity, but still is not something needed "full time", or even close.<br />
<br />
*[[Woodcrafter]]s: Not to be confused with [[carpenter]]s, these dwarves mostly just make [[useless crap]] and [[Instrument|musical instrument]]s out of [[wood]]. Show the elves what we think of their wood! <br />
<br />
*[[Bookbinder]]s, [[Papermaker]]s, [[Weaver]]s, [[Shearer]]s, [[Clothier]]s: It's often much easier just to obtain [[codex]]es, [[paper]], [[cloth]], and [[clothes]] from the caravan and migrants instead of producing them yourself, since these industries are very complex and require much setup.<br />
<br />
*[[Strand extractor]]s: Skilled strand extractors are quick, and unskilled strand extraction is ''agonizingly'' slow. They're only useful after [[raw adamantine]] has been discovered and mined, and the strands do not have quality levels.<br />
<br />
==== Useless Migrants (F)====<br />
Yes, "F" - they're that bad. <br />
<br />
Also known as either "free military conscripts" or "can I toss them in the [[volcano]] now, please?", depending.<br />
<br />
*[[Peasant]]s are not ''entirely'' useless, they're more like blank slates. Peasants can be trained in a [[mood]]able skill to control the [[artifact]]s your fortress will produce, and they make perfectly good [[haul]]ers or [[military]] trainees if you just ignore those pointless peasantish skills.<br />
<br />
*[[Animal dissector]]s and [[Fish dissector]]s: They make animal [[extract]]s, which currently are some of the most useless items in the game.<br />
<br />
*[[Bowyer]]s: Bowyers make [[crossbow]]s out of wood and bone... that's all. Weaponsmiths can do everything bowyers can do, except better, because heavier metallic crossbows are superior as blunt weapons in close quarters.<br />
<br />
*[[Trapper]]s: These dwarves make [[animal trap]]s, not [[cage]]s, which can only be used to trap [[vermin]], not large [[creature]]s. You're better off relying on [[cat]]s instead if vermin are threatening your stockpiles. These migrants often also have the marksdwarf or animal trainer skill, so their true value may lie elsewhere, unless you are seeking to trap vermin for a [[pet]].<br />
<br />
*[[Administrator]]s: By the time migrant waves start arriving, you should already have these positions covered and filled; there is very little advantage to having more than one dwarf with these skills. (The sole exception may be a new lead dwarf without any "item" preferences, so they issue no [[mandate]]s, to replace a less appropriate/desirable leader, if you are lucky enough to find the right skill set.) Also see [[unfortunate accident]].<br />
<br />
*[[Animal caretaker]]s: Bugged at the moment and may become more useful when the bug is fixed.<br />
<br />
*[[Children]]: Cannot perform any labors. At least you'll have a [[peasant]]...in about 12 years.<br />
<br />
=== Other ===<br />
*[[Pilgrim]]s, [[Peddler]]s, [[Prophet]]s, [[Poet]]s, [[Monk]]s, [[Criminal]]s, and others: These individuals are [[agent]]s from your home [[civilization]] under a false identity due to a recently patched bug, and are usually completely benign. Determining their usefulness may require closer inspection of their skills, and killing them will reveal who they truly are.<br />
<br />
*[[Monarch]]s and their entourages: Serving as a major endgame goal, inviting these members of dwarven society comes with its own requirements and caveats, requiring a large amount of investment, labor, and time. The player can choose to never pursue this goal if they wish.<br />
<br />
{{Category|Dwarves}}<br />
{{Category|World}}<br />
[[ru:Immigration]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014_Talk:Immigration&diff=253661DF2014 Talk:Immigration2020-06-27T10:24:05Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Necromancers */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>== Hard-coded Waves ==<br />
<br />
Note that the first two waves are "hard-coded" to appear regardless of fortress wealth, danger, or civilization extinction. Those waves *are* subject to the population caps (and were previously, though with the "liaison information enables the cap feature" it was nearly impossible to enable the cap before the first two waves arrived without setting it directly with DFHack). Now that the population caps take immediate effect it is much easier to block the first two waves, but they still ignore the in-game variables that all other waves use.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Early Immigration ==<br />
<br />
In my new fortress, the first thing I created was a trade depot. Just after finishing the depot, merchants have arrived. Just after the message that they would be leaving soon, the first immigrant wave appeared! Like, two weeks after embarking, 10 dwarves! Although I find it quite a blessing as I'm usually struggling with the low work force of the first seven, I'm not sure if this could be expected behavior. Not a single dwarf, merchant, caravan, etc. has left the map. How could they possibly know? Maybe we should add a paragraph explicitly explaining the danger of early immigration or something, just in case people didn't bring enough food for potentially 17 dwarves. But, is this expected behavior or even an unknown bug? Oh, and to the usefulness of the first waves: it was a legendary shearer, two high master potters and two bone doctors, among other useful skills --[[User:Janni|Janni]] ([[User talk:Janni|talk]]) 10:02, 3 January 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Minimum Migrants for Second Wave? ==<br />
<br />
I just had my second wave of migrants, and got the "The fortress attracted no migrants this season." message. Perhaps the claim that the minimum size for the first two waves is 1 is not true?<br />
<br />
This is the 2nd fortress in the world. The first one told me that the civilization was extinct, and I'd likely get high-ranked officials. This was true. I had the King and wasted a lot of resources trying to get fancy enough rooms for the guy... until the fortress fell after a crippling werelizard infection followed by a huge swarm of undead. This fortress gave me on such message, but the first dwarven caravan is still here, without a liason.<small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Shane|Shane]]</small><br />
<br />
:Did you have a population cap set at or below your current number of dwarves? Or no strict population cap at all? (A bug set the strict population cap to "0" if it wasn't defined in the init file.) Even the "hard coded" migrant waves are affected by the population caps.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
To chime in, I also had "No migrants this season." for the second wave. I only had 3 dwarves arrive the first wave, and chose a dwarf civilization with very few members. My pop cap is set to 30. There was a seize going on during the second year, so maybe the second wave was blocked, though. --[[Special:Contributions/1.175.1.165|1.175.1.165]] 10:54, 26 March 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Migrants even though parent civ dead ==<br />
<br />
I embarked on an island and resurrected a dead dwarven civ. One of my dwarves immediately became the king. After the first two migrant waves, I have noticed that more migrants keep arriving, even though the dwarves were wiped out. Is this a bug, or a new feature?<br />
[[Special:Contributions/96.241.60.219|96.241.60.219]] 03:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Neither? Your civilization was not, in fact, dead. Even without an active site your civilization can live on (think "refugees") for some time. In this quasi-dead state, migrants will be generated "from thin air" to fill your fortress. A truly-dead civilization will produce no migrants beyond the first two hard-coded waves. Unfortunately, determining whether a civilization is quasi-dead or truly-dead isn't straightforward.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== No Migration ==<br />
<br />
I've run three games now in version 0.40.05, each one lasting 2 to 3 years and in all of them I received no immigrants at all. The first one was on an island, so I thought that was it but the next two were not. In one of them my outpost liaison was a goblin so I thought maybe the civilization was extinct, but even if that had been the case I thought I should have gotten the two hard-coded migration waves. The third one had nothing suspicious about it at all.<br />
<br />
The only thing I can think of is that I set my population cap to 100 and maybe there's a bug that causes that setting to prevent any immigration at all, but I've checked and there does not appear to be any such bug listed. Does anyone know what I might be doing wrong, or is this an undocumented bug? [[Special:Contributions/64.180.242.196|64.180.242.196]] 14:01, 1 May 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Version 0.40 added a strict population cap, and changed how the caps work. In early releases of the v0.40 branch there were reports that mods were removing the strict population cap from the init file, causing the game to default to "0" (which prevents immigration). If you have both population caps set correctly then you might have more luck asking on the [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=7.0 gameplay questions forum].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 18:00, 1 May 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I thought I was on v0.40.24, but it looks like I'm on v0.40.05. The other thing I've checked is whether there's any migrants hanging out on the edges not able to find my fort as I don't have a meeting hall, just a meeting area. I've double checked the pop cap in the d_init file, but I didn't see one in the init file. You mention "both population caps" but I only see one. I'm using the Mayday graphics set, so maybe that's the issue. The pop cap I see is: [POPULATION_CAP:100] in the d_init file. I'll look for what the second setting should be. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/64.180.242.196|64.180.242.196]] 20:53, 1 May 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Yup, that did it. I added [STRICT_POPULATION_CAP:150] and suddenly there were 8 dwarves that wanted in (despite the fact that 6 of the starting 7 were slaughtered in an ambush - FUN!!! - even the traders were running away in horror).<br />
<br />
== Size of first two waves ==<br />
The article says "The first two migrant waves have a minimum size of 1, if it has a relative in your group already, and a maximum size of 10." To the contrary, the first wave I got had 11 migrants, and the second had 12. Anyone know what could have caused this, or if the article is simply wrong? [[Special:Contributions/2001:4830:2446:EE:A46B:F8CE:C01F:6FBF|2001:4830:2446:EE:A46B:F8CE:C01F:6FBF]] 20:21, 23 January 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well, the first two waves you received may not have been the first two attempted waves (which could have been blocked by a siege or a population cap setting). It's also quite possible that the article is outdated, or that information was simply incorrect when it was added back in [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=v0.31:Immigration&oldid=150267 2011]. If you're reasonably confident those were your first two attempted waves, feel free to fix the article.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 23:29, 23 January 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Necromancers ==<br />
<br />
Do these need their own section?<br />
--<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:24, 27 June 2020 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014_Talk:Visitor&diff=252727DF2014 Talk:Visitor2020-05-16T05:40:59Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* dead visitors */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
== request for Sanctuary ==<br />
I recently got an elf that petitioned for sanctuary. I never really cared for petitions, so I'm not entirely sure if that's something new or not, so I'm going to record anything interesting happening here before doing changes to the main article. I can already changer it's occupation, but not set any jobs to this elf. --[[User:UrisMcSid|UrisMcSid]] ([[User talk:UrisMcSid|talk]]) 18:10, 26 November 2017 (UTC)<br />
the elf is doing hauling jobs and is giving water to injured dwarves--[[User:UrisMcSid|UrisMcSid]] ([[User talk:UrisMcSid|talk]]) 19:12, 26 November 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There are new types of visitors in the newest version(44.x), it looks like refugees can be one of them. In older versions the only visitors that would petition to stay were scholars, soldiers, and performers. Does the visitor have a title corresponding to what they are(like "refugee")? [[User:Struck Down|Struck Down]] ([[User talk:Struck Down|talk]]) 19:14, 26 November 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Monster Slayer as normal immigrant == <br />
I had a Monster Slayer arrive as a normal immigrant, a Competent Hammerdwarf. I immediately drafted her into the military with no problems. Bug? [[Special:Contributions/88.153.7.235|88.153.7.235]] 22:59, 27 March 2018 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Goblin Bard ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Goblin-bard.png|thumb|''(click to enlarge)''<br /><br />
'''Goblin Bard'''<br />A Goblin Bard socialising in a Tavern.]]<br />
[[Image:Goblin-bard-thoughts-and-preferences.png|thumb|''(click to enlarge)''<br /><br />
'''Goblin Bard'''<br />A Goblin Bard's thoughts and preferences screen.]]<br />
<br />
Is this normal? Can't seem to find anything about it on the wiki.<br />
<br />
[[User:DJ Devil|DJ Devil]] ([[User talk:DJ Devil|talk]]) 14:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, most sapient species can be a member of a civilization, provided certain conditions are met. That goblin was either absorbed into human/dwarven/elven society after his own civ lost a war or was already born in it. Alternatively, that goblin may be a secret agent, who are already mentioned in the article. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 15:12, 2 April 2018 (UTC)<br />
<br />
And Hamster Men? Are they in the club, too? --[[User:DJ Devil|DJ Devil]] ([[User talk:DJ Devil|talk]]) 02:18, 9 April 2018 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes. The [[animal people]] page has a full list of what beast-races can be in civs (and can become visitors). Plump helmet man scholars are a well known oddity. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 12:24, 9 April 2018 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== dead visitors ==<br />
<br />
came looking for answers.<br />
<br />
do dead visitors go into coffins? the options are for "allow citizens" and "allow pets".<br />
<br />
It is unclear from the UI if <br />
Allow Burial: Y <br />
will permit non citizen.<br />
<br />
If a visitor dies, particularly in a throughfare, should their body be dumped, or will setting some form of facility up lead to an appropriate interrment?<br />
<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 05:40, 16 May 2020 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014_Talk:Aquifer&diff=250993DF2014 Talk:Aquifer2020-02-29T00:44:44Z<p>GarrieIrons: </p>
<hr />
<div><!-- DELETE THIS LINE -->{{newpage|type=cp|76.216.161.61}}<br />
<br />
== help ==<br />
<br />
Per the article instructions (in the section<br />
[[DF2014:Aquifer#Text_editor_.28All_operating_systems.29]]), I tried navigating to the folder<br />
"THE FOLDER DF IS INSTALLED IN"/raw/objects<br />
I also tried navigating to<br />
"THE FOLDER DF IS INSTALLED IN"/data/save/"THE WORLD YOU ARE EDITING"/raw/objects<br />
but all I got was an error--something along the lines of<br />
Windows can't find 'C:/"THE FOLDER DF IS INSTALLED IN"/raw/objects'. Cheeack the spelling and try again.<br />
(For the record, I checked the spelling, tried again, and the same thing happened.)<br />
<br />
Help?<br />
: ok that looks like it is from 3 years ago... I'm assuming you worked out what you were doing.<br />
<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 00:44, 29 February 2020 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== what does a light aquifer do? ==<br />
The article says, a heavy/"old style" aquifer adds 1/7 water every "14 ticks" (average).<br />
<br />
What does a light aquifer do? Anyone done the science yet?<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 00:44, 29 February 2020 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_cancels_Construct_Building:_Item_blocking_site&diff=250942Dwarf cancels Construct Building: Item blocking site2020-02-28T09:48:11Z<p>GarrieIrons: Added quality rating "Exceptional" using the rating script</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Quality|Exceptional|09:48, 28 February 2020 (UTC)}}<br />
{{av}}<br />
This occurs when a dwarf is trying to clear the tile(s) of a building site and there is an item which the [[dwarf]] is not allowed to pick up lying on the ground where you want to place the [[building]].<br />
<br />
For instance...<br />
*... the item is [[forbidden]].<br />
*... the item is marked for [[dump]]ing.<br />
*... the item is tasked to be used in a different building.<br />
*... the item is tasked to be hauled to a [[stockpile]].<br />
*... the item is tasked to be hauled to the [[trade depot]].<br />
*... the item is tasked to be used in a [[workshop]].<br />
<br />
One of the more common situations is when you have a field of mined stones, and you have designated several workshops and/or walls to be built there using some of those same stones. "Workshop A" gets canceled because "Wall B's" stone is in the way, and vice versa - neither can be built since the other's stone can't be moved.<br />
<br />
Or, same situation, but several masons are actively using up those stones, or there's a stone stockpile the stones are going to, or you've marked them for dumping - if one mason or hauler is walking toward a stone when it needs to be cleared from the workshop area, it's "tasked" for something else - and can't be moved.<br />
<br />
If the item is tasked for something, it will probably ''(read "hopefully")'' be taken away very quickly as that job is handled; you can often just un-suspend the construction and it will complete with no further error. Forbidden items, however, will have to be manually unforbidden in order to make construction possible.<br />
<br />
In extreme cases, try the following steps:<br />
:# pause the game, via {{k|spacebar}}. <br />
:# [[forbid]] any and all items that might possibly be blocking the building. (This can be done via {{k|k}}, then {{k|f}}, ''or'', for larger areas, via {{k|d}}, {{k|b}}, {{k|f}} and then either using {{k|Enter}} to designate a large area or left-clicking with the mouse.) This will cancel any tasks associated with all items.<br />
:# unforbid them again.<br />
:# remove the workshop/building job, via {{k|q}}, {{k|x}}.<br />
:# re-designate the same workshop/building job - or a few less than you had before, if several might be overlapping. This is to prioritize that building for your (now idle?) construction dwarves.<br />
:# and, if it's not obvious, then unpause the game, via {{k|spacebar}}. <br />
<br />
In very rare cases, the worst culprit is a piece of [[clothing]] that a dwarf has discarded while changing into [[armour]]. That personal item may be permanently tasked for retrieval, yet due to a known game glitch the dwarf will never retrieve it. In such cases, alternating the dwarf in question between [[armour level]]s, from "clothing" to "leather" to "plate" and back, ''repeatedly'', may (eventually) shake them out of it and they'll grab their sock, or whatever has brought construction to a magma-gargling halt. For particularly stubborn cases, [[Utility:DFHack|DFHack]] provides several commands that can clear things up: "cleanowned scattered" will confiscate owned items that were abandoned by your dwarves (allowing them to be stockpiled or dumped), and "autodump destroy-here" simply eliminates items under the cursor.<br />
<br />
{{Category|Errors}}</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_cancels_Construct_Building:_cannot_reach_site&diff=250941Dwarf cancels Construct Building: cannot reach site2020-02-28T09:46:39Z<p>GarrieIrons: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Quality|Fine|09:46, 28 February 2020 (UTC)}}<br />
{{av}}<br />
This error message will show if a [[dwarf]] is unable to find a valid path to the [[construction]] site. You may want to check if the site is blocked in some way such as on an unreachable z-level, across a body of [[water]], or blocked in by [[wall]]s or structures. Raising or retracting a [[bridge]] may lead to many of these messages.<br />
<br />
Alternatively, the dwarf that generated the message may be stuck themselves. Make sure they have not walled themselves in or have gotten stuck in some other way.<br />
<br />
This error may also occur if a dwarf refuses to move an obstructing object in a diagonal corridor. You can manually order the object moved, then finish the construction. This behavior is presumably a bug.{{bug|8879}}<br />
<br />
{{Category|Errors}}<br />
[[ru:Dwarf cancels Construct Building: cannot reach site]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:GarrieIrons&diff=250940User talk:GarrieIrons2020-02-28T09:46:20Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* editing */</p>
<hr />
<div>This is my talk page. You might like to email me instead, I will probably check that more often. --[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 03:04, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Welcome to this wiki! Dwarf Fortress rapidly becomes more complicated, and we're always glad to have new writers.<br><br />
Since we request that you try to follow DFwiki standards, we've made a list of basic guidelines to follow. Also, this is a template, some may not apply to you.<br><br />
* To let us know who you are, please sign your posts on discussion pages by typing "<nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>" after your posts. This can also be inserted with the [[Image:Button sig756222.png]] button if Javascript is enabled.<br />
* Avoid making a dozen small edits to a page, instead making one large edit. This makes the history of the page a lot easier to read and avoids cluttering the Recent changes page.<br />
* When making comments on a talk page, use one more colon before each line in your comment than was used in the comment you reply to. Put exactly one empty line between comments by different users but do not use blank lines inside of a comment. If your comment has no indents, use <code><nowiki><br></nowiki></code> after each line.<br />
* Most importantly, [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Community Portal#We_are_doing_this.21_Let_us_do_it_right.|read and follow the rules.]]<br />
--[[User:Savok|Savok]] 12:59, 5 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Stone ==<br />
<br />
Could you explain why you a removing [[:category:stone]] from things which are clearly stones? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 10:51, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
:Ah, I see how you want to set it up. However, I think we should consider alternative ways to set up the subcategories. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 10:54, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
::Hi Vengeful (thought better not use the initials ?). As you seem to have worked out - [[:Category:Ore]] etc are subcats of [[:Category:Stone]], so articles don't need to be members of both - especially when there are great [[stone|list articles]] about the place, which I am more than happy to contribute to.<br />
::I'd rather be bold than wait for others to agree, but I won't object if someone reverts it because it's too logical but not common sense.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:36, 12 February 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Here's the problem as I see it with stones in general. Each of them falls under several types of subcats (with different kinds of relationships). All ores are economic stones. Some, but not all, economic stones are in sedimentary layers. Maybe there should even be a category for layer-type stones, which would also intersect (but not contain nor be contained by) economic stones. While I like the idea of partitioning the stone category, I would only want to do it if an elegant way is found. These are the possible categories a stone can fall under and their relationships:<br />
<br />
:::{| border=1<br />
!- x!!Economic!!Non-Economic!!Ore!!Layer-type!!Sed!!Ig.Extr.!!Ig.Intr.!!Metamorphic!!Generic<br />
|-<br />
!Economic||x||Mut.Exclusive||Contains||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Mut.Exclusive<br />
|-<br />
!Non-Economic||Mut.Exclusive||x||Mut.Exclusive||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Contains<br />
|-<br />
!Ore||Subset||Mut.Exclusive||x||Mut.Exclusive||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Mut.Exclusive<br />
|-<br />
!Layer-type||Intersects||Intersects||Mut.Exclusive||x||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Mut.Exclusive<br />
|-<br />
!Sed||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects<br />
|-<br />
!Ig.Extr.||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects<br />
|-<br />
!Ig.Intr.||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x||Intersects||Intersects<br />
|-<br />
!Metamorphic||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x||Intersects<br />
|-<br />
!Generic||Mut.Exclusive||Subset||Mut.Exclusive||Mut.Exclusive||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x<br />
|}<br />
<br />
::The fact that economic and non-economic stones are mutually exclusive makes it tempting to partition them that way, but there are other possible arrangements with the same qualifications &mdash; I don't think any of them are very appealing. The reason I made the big lump in the first place was because of this very problem. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:27, 12 February 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Although the ores do have an economic purpose - in-game they are seperate classes at least per the stockpile menu. I think as much as possible, the groupings in-game are the best ones to use because after all this is a wiki about a single game universe. The layers etc are observed characteristics of that universe but they are not immediately noticable and less likely search criterion for gamers seeking info (once you know the other mechanics chances are you know which ones are stones vs gems).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 04:03, 12 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::What do you propose to do with the ores? The in-game grouping isn't consistent for them. In the stockpile settings they are seperate from economic, while in the stone selection screen they are included. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 01:38, 13 February 2008 (EST)<br />
:::OK I see what you're saying. The game itself uses inconsistant language: on the {{key|z}} stone menu, economic stone = stockpile economic stone + stockpile ore. My preferred grouping is the stockpile one as it is the one that seems most visible to players - although I do agree there are times when I am constantly going back in to turn the dominant limestone/dolomite/chalk on and off in the {{key|z}} stone menu.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 02:19, 13 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Rule N ==<br />
<br />
As I read it, Rule N applies specifically and only to Page titles themselves, not section headings or other headlines.<br />
Your edit to Crafting is of the latter, rather than former.<br />
I couldn't see a particular reason for having the older version over the one you did, so I didn't revert. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 21:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Posted reply on my talk RE: Bins in stockpiles -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 00:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:more reply -[[User:N9103|Edward]]<br />
<br />
<br />
[[User_talk:Albedo#links_vs_links]] - Heya! See response, my page.<br />
<br />
== new sig: testing ==<br />
<br />
[[User:GarrieIrons|&lt;font face=&quot;FixedSys&quot; color=&quot;#00FFFF&quot;&gt;&#91;&#91;User:GarrieIrons&#124;Gar&#93;&#93;&lt;/font&gt;&#91;&#91;User Talk:GarrieIrons&#124;rie&#93;&#93;]] 14:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
:crap. [[User:GarrieIrons|&#91;&#91;User:GarrieIrons&#124;Gar&#93;&#93;&#91;&#91;User Talk:GarrieIrons&#124;rie&#93;&#93;]] 14:38, 13 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
::raw sigs.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 14:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Food guide ==<br />
So what was your idea when resorting [[Food guide]]? Before it was sorted for usefulness/return and easiness, as it is for new players. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 12:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
:It's now sorted - for new players - in order of easiest to get going to hardest:<br />
1 Gathering <br />
2 Fishing <br />
3 Hunting <br />
4 Farming <br />
5 Livestock <br />
6 Trapping <br />
7 Trading <br />
8 Related: Cooking<br />
<br />
:I suggest that is the order that you will at least achieve subsistance when you first start playing DF. Once you know what you are doing you start trading for everything and work your community as a high tech tertiary industry enterprise, making everything out of glass, buying raw food and turning it into high quality cooked meals / booze at kitchens & stills located right next to the trade depot. But to start playing it's easiest to have say 1 farmer/herbalist/cook/brewer, 1 hunter, 1 butcher/tanner/bone-worker/leather-worker.<br />
<br />
:Having said all of the above, to date I pretty much don't raise livestock I hunt &/or trade for meat/leather. Animals wandering around is too haphazard. I farm for plants --> booze. I don't think I '''ever''' got fishing to be a real enterprise, but that might be to do with my maps (never tried seaside / rivers).<br />
<br />
:If you are going to do so many edits - could you please use meaningful edit summaries more often? 22 edits to 1 article with edits such as this one http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php?title=Food_guide&diff=41280585&oldid=41280577 which show you don't get that there is an upper cap to the number of seeds you can have, 1 seed can produce a stack of up to 10 or so plants... at some point it is good to tell new players "when you have more plump helmet spawn than you have space on your farm to plant them, start cooking it". A high quality meal cooked with plump helmet spawn is usually worth more than the bag of plump helmet spawn (plus you don't give away any bags).<br />
:<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 13:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Au contraire - seeds max out at 200 and from then on all seed related jobs work like a charm, cos no more seeds are produced when processing. The clutter and baghogging seeds used to make is gone anyway in 40d. my 2000+ seeds of 11 types use up 4 barrels and 33 bags and this could even be optimized, since some of them are bought seed bags with only 20 seeds in them (plus seed meals are crap, bad for eating, they use up barrels (max size 4), and trading them is a pain). I prefer to trade seeds away if I ever get some i don't want (who would mill hide root anyway??).<br />
<br />
::Now for the sorting logic: fishing and hunting are always dangerous (animals, carp, goblins), especially at start, so is gathering. Farming, no soil aside, is actually easy to get going, more importantly its safe and guaranteed, as is trading. Of course all of this is opinion and as long as the single sources are described properly I don't mind really.--[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 15:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::Hunting is dangerous, but relatively speaking it pays off. After all, dwarves are nothing if not renewable resources!<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 08:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions]] ==<br />
Based on your comments and input on the administration requests pages I thought you might be interested in this kind of discussion. Please bring in your comments on this page and on it's talk page and let everyone know what you think. Thanks! [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] 20:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:Could you drop by and comment on "consensus" again? [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions#Consensus.3F] [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== editing ==<br />
<br />
Thing is I don't know enough to make such a section. I've never found any let alone done it <br />
enough times to know the difference between the few times I'd achieved such a thing and what <br />
has to happen all the time.<br />
Really? You seem to have a good eye - Meh, only one way to figure it out - open a page and have a look! Copy/paste some code of an article that has an interesting (or basic) format style, a "look" you want to master, and play with it on your User page, just using "preview". The main tricks are how many "equals signs" ( <nowiki>= =</nowiki> ) surround the subsection name ''(1-4, with 1 being the largest, 4 being the smallest, and 2 the default for a subsection)'', the use of " <nowiki>__TOC__</nowiki> " to force a Table Of Contents where you want it ''(note there are TWO _'s on each side of that!)'', and an advanced trick, the use of templates, anything in double brackets, " <nowiki>{{ blah blah }}</nowiki> ". Templates call up a pre-determined "style" from another page, and often let you fill in the blank. The "spoiler warning", "mod warning", "D for Dwarf" and "{{k|k}}eyboard key" are all templates. Other than that, just hit the editing buttons at the top of the screen, and you've got 90% of everything you could want!--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 11:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::Sorry, I meant my DF-fu not my wiki-fu... it's the "subject" I lack knowledge in not the "how to wikify the subject". Clear as mud? <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::"Ahhh, I see", said the blind dwarf, as he picked up his hammer and saw. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 11:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:46, 28 February 2020 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:GarrieIrons&diff=250887User:GarrieIrons2020-02-27T09:47:28Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Updates */ return after... well not a decade.</p>
<hr />
<div>Hey ho, it's me, the same guy as at Wikipedia with the self same imaginative name which is my real one...<br />
<br />
it's also my mailbox name at hotmail.com.<br />
Or [http://twitter.com/garrieirons I'm on twitter].<br />
<br />
I have come here via Vanilla Angband, a real roguelike game.<br />
<br />
I ran a [[/log|log]] of my early gaming experience and thoughts. I did manage to update it each session or so but have stopped now. Once I can get a settlement over 100 dwarves, producing metal items, and running screw pumps from water or wind power sources I will have another go. <br />
<br />
<br />
==Updates==<br />
* 27 Feb 2020 Hey, if I say I'm coming back, you don't have to remind me every decade. I'm back.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
*2 April 2010: After not being able to connect to the forum yesterday, I worked out it was because there was an April Fool release. OMFG How could I miss it?<br />
*31 August 2008: I made my first set of [[plate mail]]. It was [[bronze]] of course but hey metal armor is metal armor!<br />
*3 September 2008: Started a new fortress, "Teskomolin", which has the following features:<br />
**Volcano (picked location for this feature)<br />
**Cave system<br />
**Kobold village with widespread loot<br />
**Cavern<br />
**Brook<br />
**[[Iron man|Iron men]] - yes, several<br />
::Actually beginning play revealed that there are extensive seams of gold, silver, aluminium, and a wide variety of gems. The kobolds are safely on the other side of a chasm (cliffs on both sides with the brook through the middle). This looks like a keeper!<br />
*19 September: Teskomolin is still active. Made my first warhammer, spear, battleaxe, mace due to an abundance of [[silver]]. Hopefully my next wave of immigrants may have some professional soldiers!<br />
* Playing onulbudam, have become a barony with 10 artifacts including usable furniture and a weapon. Legendary craftsmen include masons, weaponsmith, metalsmith, and stone carvers. Created wealth on becoming a barony is 1168404.<br />
* 2012: I'm back but will be editing here with my usual online handle. I have upgraded, there are some interesting changes, and I have forgotten some things such as how to build a perpetual pump stack. But with the ease with which you can find a cavern now... does it matter?<br />
===Unusual artifacts===<br />
# [[:Image:Bebmal kirar.png|Bebmal Kirar]] is a door made of [[gazelle]] [[bone]] made by my [[trapper]] in a [[Craftsdwarf's workshop|craftsdwarf's]] [[workshop]].<br />
# [[:Image:Avedbungek Lushutecem.PNG|Avedbungek Lushutecem]] is a [[millstone]] made of [[granite]] by my [[mason]]. It features an image showing my [[dwarf|dwarves]] striking down an [[iron man]]. History of the fortress "Teskomolin" recorded for all time! or until abandonment at any rate...<br />
# iltangbukith Zilirdumatnomal Lek, "Forkedturmoils the Eternal Rough Staff" is a [[bracelet]] made of [[Felsite]] by my [[soap|soapmaker]] in a [[kitchen]]. It features an image showing [[dwarf|dwarves]] speaking and another image of [[dwarf|dwarves]] [[labor|labouring]]. Creating this artifact changed my journeyman soapmaker into a legendary [[stonecrafter]].<br />
<br><br />
<div style="background: black; width: 50em;"><font face="FixedSys" color="#C0C0C0">Garrie is quite pleased about being part of a great project. He has [[on break|played]] little Dwarf Fortress recently. He is exstatic that his brother has had a [[child]] recently. He [[sleep|slept]] in a [[quality|fine]] [[bedroom]] recently. He [[food|ate]] in a nice dining room recently. He has recovered from feeling [[vomit|ill]] and being unable to [[Personality traits#ACHIEVEMENT_STRIVING|work]]. He admired his own [[farm plot|garden]] recently. He has been satisfied at work recently. <br><br>Garrie spends time at other websites related to [http://facebook.com friends] and [http://angband.oook.cz/ angband].<br />
<br />
Garrie likes computer games, working outdoors, and [[dog]]s for their playfulness. When possible, he prefers to consume [[cow|beef]] and [[alcohol|bourbon]]. He absolutely dispises bogans. [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Community Portal|He dislikes disorder]].<br><br>Garrie prefers working outdoor and rarely complains about [[rain|inclement weather]]. He often does the first activity that comes to hand but continues with it for waaaay tooo long. He enjoys alcohol but does not rely on it to get through the working day. He is not the [[guard|hardened individual]] that he used to be.</font></div></div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014_Talk:Apple&diff=219727DF2014 Talk:Apple2015-07-08T11:16:14Z<p>GarrieIrons: Created page with " == Seeds == So I've ended up with a bunch of Apple Seeds. Anything I can do with them? So far it's "Dump them" ~~~~"</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
== Seeds ==<br />
So I've ended up with a bunch of Apple Seeds.<br />
Anything I can do with them? So far it's "Dump them"<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:16, 8 July 2015 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:GarrieIrons&diff=178773User:GarrieIrons2012-11-18T03:20:56Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Updates */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hey ho, it's me, the same guy as at Wikipedia with the self same imaginative name which is my real one...<br />
<br />
it's also my mailbox name at hotmail.com.<br />
Or [http://twitter.com/garrieirons I'm on twitter].<br />
<br />
I have come here via Vanilla Angband, a real roguelike game.<br />
<br />
I ran a [[/log|log]] of my early gaming experience and thoughts. I did manage to update it each session or so but have stopped now. Once I can get a settlement over 100 dwarves, producing metal items, and running screw pumps from water or wind power sources I will have another go. <br />
<br />
<br />
==Updates==<br />
*2 April 2010: After not being able to connect to the forum yesterday, I worked out it was because there was an April Fool release. OMFG How could I miss it?<br />
*31 August 2008: I made my first set of [[plate mail]]. It was [[bronze]] of course but hey metal armor is metal armor!<br />
*3 September 2008: Started a new fortress, "Teskomolin", which has the following features:<br />
**Volcano (picked location for this feature)<br />
**Cave system<br />
**Kobold village with widespread loot<br />
**Cavern<br />
**Brook<br />
**[[Iron man|Iron men]] - yes, several<br />
::Actually beginning play revealed that there are extensive seams of gold, silver, aluminium, and a wide variety of gems. The kobolds are safely on the other side of a chasm (cliffs on both sides with the brook through the middle). This looks like a keeper!<br />
*19 September: Teskomolin is still active. Made my first warhammer, spear, battleaxe, mace due to an abundance of [[silver]]. Hopefully my next wave of immigrants may have some professional soldiers!<br />
* Playing onulbudam, have become a barony with 10 artifacts including usable furniture and a weapon. Legendary craftsmen include masons, weaponsmith, metalsmith, and stone carvers. Created wealth on becoming a barony is 1168404.<br />
* 2012: I'm back but will be editing here with my usual online handle. I have upgraded, there are some interesting changes, and I have forgotten some things such as how to build a perpetual pump stack. But with the ease with which you can find a cavern now... does it matter?<br />
===Unusual artifacts===<br />
# [[:Image:Bebmal kirar.png|Bebmal Kirar]] is a door made of [[gazelle]] [[bone]] made by my [[trapper]] in a [[Craftsdwarf's workshop|craftsdwarf's]] [[workshop]].<br />
# [[:Image:Avedbungek Lushutecem.PNG|Avedbungek Lushutecem]] is a [[millstone]] made of [[granite]] by my [[mason]]. It features an image showing my [[dwarf|dwarves]] striking down an [[iron man]]. History of the fortress "Teskomolin" recorded for all time! or until abandonment at any rate...<br />
# iltangbukith Zilirdumatnomal Lek, "Forkedturmoils the Eternal Rough Staff" is a [[bracelet]] made of [[Felsite]] by my [[soap|soapmaker]] in a [[kitchen]]. It features an image showing [[dwarf|dwarves]] speaking and another image of [[dwarf|dwarves]] [[labor|labouring]]. Creating this artifact changed my journeyman soapmaker into a legendary [[stonecrafter]].<br />
<br><br />
<div style="background: black; width: 50em;"><font face="FixedSys" color="#C0C0C0">Garrie is quite pleased about being part of a great project. He has [[on break|played]] little Dwarf Fortress recently. He is exstatic that his brother has had a [[child]] recently. He [[sleep|slept]] in a [[quality|fine]] [[bedroom]] recently. He [[food|ate]] in a nice dining room recently. He has recovered from feeling [[vomit|ill]] and being unable to [[Personality traits#ACHIEVEMENT_STRIVING|work]]. He admired his own [[farm plot|garden]] recently. He has been satisfied at work recently. <br><br>Garrie spends time at other websites related to [http://facebook.com friends] and [http://angband.oook.cz/ angband].<br />
<br />
Garrie likes computer games, working outdoors, and [[dog]]s for their playfulness. When possible, he prefers to consume [[cow|beef]] and [[alcohol|bourbon]]. He absolutely dispises bogans. [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Community Portal|He dislikes disorder]].<br><br>Garrie prefers working outdoor and rarely complains about [[rain|inclement weather]]. He often does the first activity that comes to hand but continues with it for waaaay tooo long. He enjoys alcohol but does not rely on it to get through the working day. He is not the [[guard|hardened individual]] that he used to be.</font></div></div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:ImaWestie&diff=178772User talk:ImaWestie2012-11-18T03:18:34Z<p>GarrieIrons: Created page with "{{welcome}}"</p>
<hr />
<div>{{welcome}}</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:ImaWestie&diff=178771User:ImaWestie2012-11-18T03:18:07Z<p>GarrieIrons: Created page with "This is a placeholder for Westie to create his page when he logs back in. ~~~~"</p>
<hr />
<div>This is a placeholder for Westie to create his page when he logs back in.<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 03:18, 18 November 2012 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Trap&diff=8415140d:Trap2010-04-05T15:52:27Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Cage Trap */ Bronze Colossus ->Bronze Colossus (best 40d link)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{red link}}<br />
{{av}}<br />
:''For traps used to catch [[40d:vermin|vermin]], see [[40d:animal trap|animal trap]].''<br />
<br />
'''Traps''' are a reliable and cost-effective method for defending any fortress. Unlike [[40d:soldier|soldier]]s, they're always on duty, and don't need to be carefully managed. On the other hand, they are immobile and can only lie in wait for foes to walk over them. To build a trap, go to the {{k|b}}uild->{{k|T}}raps/Levers menu. You'll generally need one [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]], a dwarf with the [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]] labor designated (ranks in this [[40d:skill|skill]] reduce the time to place a trap), and at least one other component depending on the type of trap - a stone, a cage, or one or more weapons. They can be built indoors or outdoors, and require a level ground square with no other constructions in them.<br />
<br />
Stone-fall, weapon and cage traps will be triggered by (most) any hostile entity entering their tile, with the exception of [[40d:kobold|kobold]] [[40d:thief|thieves]]. Additionally, '''any''' [[40d:unconscious|unconscious]] creature, including your own [[40d:dwarves|dwarves]], [[40d:pet|pet]]s and [[40d:war dog|war dog]]s, will also set off such a trap. (Kobold [[40d:thief|thieves]] have the ability to avoid traps, though it seems to have a small amount of randomness built in.)<br />
<br />
Note that, in combat situations, [[40d:Mechanic|Mechanic]]s (and others) have a nasty habit of wanting to reload (or clean) traps when they are triggered, regardless of who or what might be out there as well. [[40d:Forbid|Forbid]]ding traps after they are built will keep [[40d:Urist|Urist McSuicide]] from deciding to reload a stone trap in the middle of a [[40d:siege|siege]]. Just remember to unforbid them when things calm down, so the traps are all ready for next time.<br />
<br />
==Stone-fall Trap==<br />
The simplest trap to construct, a stone-fall trap is essentially a [[40d:stone|stone]] suspended up in the air which is dropped on intruders when the trap is triggered. These are a popular defensive measure early on, as the components needed are readily available as soon as you start mining. A single stone trap will kill or severely maim most [[40d:humanoid|humanoid]] enemies although [[40d:troll|troll]]s, [[40d:magma_man|magmamen]] and hardier creatures may take two or three to drop. Mythical creatures such as [[40d:dragon|dragon]]s, [[40d:hydra|hydra]]s and [[40d:titan|titan]]s will take upwards of five or six. After being used they need to be reloaded with another stone by any [[40d:dwarf|dwarf]] with [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]] [[40d:skill|skill]] enabled, a task which your dwarves will see to automatically. Being that stonefall traps do <em>not</em> alert you of ambushes when triggered by hidden invaders, this can frequently lead your mechanics into peril. <br />
:Shortcut {{k|s}}<br />
:Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and an ordinary [[40d:stone|stone]]<br />
<br />
==Weapon Trap==<br />
Weapon traps consist of any number of deadly instruments rigged to a mechanism. When an intruder sets off the trap, the [[40d:weapons|weapons]] spring out and strike the poor sap. You can add up to 10 weapons to a weapon trap, and they will all attack together when set off. This gives the potential for dealing significant amounts of damage at once. There are also special giant weapons such as the [[40d:large, serrated disc|large, serrated disc]] that are specially designed for use in weapon traps. Unlike stone-fall traps, weapon traps automatically reset after being triggered, ready to splatter the intruder's friends. But there is a (20%?)chance that the trap will become jammed with a corpse each time it kills a creature. A nearby dwarf will automatically clean a jammed trap; this does not require the [[40d:cleaning|cleaning]] labor or the [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]]s labor. <br />
<br />
If there are weapons that require ammunition ([[40d:crossbow|crossbow]]s, [[40d:bow|bow]]s, etc) in the trap, each such weapon requires appropriate ammo ([[40d:arrow|arrow]]s for bows, [[40d:Other weapon#dart|dart]]s for [[40d:blowgun|blowgun]]s, etc), and will have to be reloaded occasionally. Weapon traps using ''only'' ranged weapons will not require cleaning, but once all the ammo runs out, that weapon is done until reloaded. If a ranged weapon runs out of ammo, other trap weapons will still trigger. If non-ranged weapons are included in the same trap and jam, the entire trap jams until cleared. Ranged weapons in traps only target the creature triggering the trap, just as any other weapon - if the creature steps onto that trap, the trap targets that creature, once per triggering, until all ammo is gone. ''(This means "Range = 0".)'' <br />
<br />
Unlike other traps, weapon traps benefit from being constructed with high quality mechanisms. Weapon traps are more accurate the better their mechanism. Since weapon traps can be constructed with multiple weapons, and each weapon's attack is calculated separately, traps with multiple weapons benefit more from high-quality mechanisms than do traps with only one weapon. If you manage to get an artifact [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]], stuff it with as many weapons as possible!<br />
<br />
Weapon traps are a nice way of getting rid of any cheap, mediocre captured weapons, [[40d:wood|wood]]en weapons you don't need for sparring and weapons your dwarves can't use. Due to the bundling of weapons you don't have to worry much about the minor damage they would cause separately. There is no difference between low quality crossbows (wood, bone, copper) and high quality steel and adamantine crossbows—the metal only changes their effectiveness in melee. Thus wooden crossbows at the bowyer make for easy-to-produce trap weapons.<br />
<br />
:Shortcut {{k|w}}<br />
:Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and whatever [[40d:weapon|weapon]]s you want, up to ten.<br />
<br />
==Cage Trap==<br />
Cage traps capture creatures that set them off in [[40d:cage|cage]]s. After a creature is captured, it's stored, cage and all, in an animal [[40d:stockpile|stockpile]]. Then the trap is reloaded with another cage. You can do all sorts of fun things with [[40d:captured creatures|captured creatures]]. Creatures in cages will not be fed, they will survive indefinitely without nourishment. Cage traps will alert you to ambushes when triggered by hidden invaders, making a useful forward defense mechanism.<br />
<br />
It is possible that dwarves bring [[40d:water|water]] to cages, but that means that you have someone friendly also locked in the cage - like a dwarf [[40d:child|kid]] snatched by a [[40d:goblin|goblin]] babysnatcher. In this case remove the poor fellow using the goblin's inventory screen.<br />
A cage trap is one of the most effective ways to defeat powerful beasts, as even a [[40d:glass|glass]] cage (aquarium/terrarium) can imprison a [[40d:Creature#Bronze Colossus|Bronze Colossus]]. This was expected to change. Also, the creature captured in the cage will have no effect on the cage itself (a caged [[40d:fire imp|fire imp]] will not burn down a wooden cage, for example).<br />
<br />
Cage traps are also useful for catching animals for use in the [[40d:meat industry|meat industry]].<br />
<br />
:*Shortcut {{k|b}} {{k|T}} {{k|c}}<br />
:*Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and a [[40d:cage|cage]].<br />
:*If the trap is a Dark Green, then it does not have a cage in it.<br />
:*If the trap is a Light Green, Then it does have a cage in it.<br />
<br />
:'''NOTE:''' This trap will not catch [[40d:vermin|vermin]]. For that, you need an [[40d:animal trap|animal trap]].<br />
<br />
===Berserk dwarves===<br />
Cage traps will capture berserk dwarves, so it might be wise to keep them stored instead of killing them (for happiness purposes), since relationships they have with other dwarves are maintained. However, unlike other caged creatures, dwarves will starve to death over time inside a cage.<br />
<br />
==Upright Spear/Spike==<br />
<br />
These traps can only be utilized by attaching them to [[40d:lever|lever]]s or [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]]s, which when triggered will cause the [[40d:spike|spike]]s to extend from the ground and, when triggered again, to retract back into the ground. They don't slow or hurt any creature walking through them if they are not currently triggered by a lever/plate, neither when up nor when retracted.<br />
<br />
The lever task can be set to repeat which makes the spikes go up and down, but there is a high chance a creature will pass the spike trap before or after they shoot up, so you may want to build a row of at least 5 traps.<br />
<br />
The damage done depends, like with weapon traps, on the number and quality of the [[40d:spear|spear]]s and spikes used. One trap can be loaded with up to 10 spikes or spears. The fact that they do piercing damage makes them useful against more powerful foes which are most easily killed by damaging their organs. Using a single, no-[[40d:quality|quality]] spike made from [[40d:Damage#Material_damage_modifiers|low-damage material]] can be useful in attempting to cripple [[40d:noble|noble]]s when killing them outright is not desired, but much luck is in involved in the outcome.<br />
<br />
Spikes will, when triggered, damage creatures unaffected by other traps (kobold thieves and demons, but also dwarves, [[40d:pet|pet]]s and allied creatures). The traps' friendly fire means they make effective anti-[[40d:immigrant|immigrant]] traps. There are also reports that the spikes are effective against [[40d:demons|demons]], although spikes which are not made of [[40d:steel|steel]] may melt.<br />
<br />
Contrary to what one might think, the spikes appear to do no (additional) damage if a creature falls on them. There is therefore no advantage to putting the spikes at the bottom of a pit trap and you still have to connect them to a lever or pressure plate to cause injury -- not that you shouldn't do that anyway. <br />
<br />
Stuff does get stuck in spikes when they are triggered. Any [[40d:corpse|corpse]]s will appear as an item inside a spike's 'building' when they are out (the same way [[40d:mug|mug]]s and whatnot appear inside [[40d:workshop|workshop]]s when you first make them). Retracting the spikes lets the corpse out. If a corpse is in a square when the trap is triggered, it will be skewered again on the spike.<br />
<br />
Testing has shown that there is no limit to the number of creatures a single spike can strike and impale-testing with recruits ordered to stand on a retracted spike resulted in all six recruits getting killed instantaneously and stuck on the spike. Use with extreme caution.<br />
<br />
:Shortcut {{k|S}} (capitalized)<br />
:Components used: A [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] for the [[40d:lever|lever]] or [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]] and [[40d:spear|spear]]s or [[40d:spike|spike]]s.<br />
<br />
==Other Traps==<br />
You can create even more elaborate traps with imaginative use of pits, [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]]s, [[40d:lever|lever]]s, [[40d:repeater|repeater]]s, [[40d:grate|grate]]s, [[40d:support|support]]s, [[40d:water|water]], and/or [[40d:magma|magma]], creating sacrificial altars (blood for the Blood God!) and whatever else you can think of. Watching those goblins try to find a way out of your drowning chamber as it begins to fill is really quite satisfying. These are best made in a large, repeatable mass killing, way. If you make a trap that kills 10 or so goblins, that only works once and you have to rebuild it, wasting time you don't have during a [[40d:siege|siege]], you're not trying hard enough.<br />
<br />
See [[40d:Trap design|Trap design]]<br />
<br />
{{Buildings}}<br />
[[Category:Traps| ]]<br />
[[Category:Fortress defense]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Trap&diff=8414640d:Trap2010-04-05T15:48:26Z<p>GarrieIrons: darts -> darts</p>
<hr />
<div>{{red link}}<br />
{{av}}<br />
:''For traps used to catch [[40d:vermin|vermin]], see [[40d:animal trap|animal trap]].''<br />
<br />
'''Traps''' are a reliable and cost-effective method for defending any fortress. Unlike [[40d:soldier|soldier]]s, they're always on duty, and don't need to be carefully managed. On the other hand, they are immobile and can only lie in wait for foes to walk over them. To build a trap, go to the {{k|b}}uild->{{k|T}}raps/Levers menu. You'll generally need one [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]], a dwarf with the [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]] labor designated (ranks in this [[40d:skill|skill]] reduce the time to place a trap), and at least one other component depending on the type of trap - a stone, a cage, or one or more weapons. They can be built indoors or outdoors, and require a level ground square with no other constructions in them.<br />
<br />
Stone-fall, weapon and cage traps will be triggered by (most) any hostile entity entering their tile, with the exception of [[40d:kobold|kobold]] [[40d:thief|thieves]]. Additionally, '''any''' [[40d:unconscious|unconscious]] creature, including your own [[40d:dwarves|dwarves]], [[40d:pet|pet]]s and [[40d:war dog|war dog]]s, will also set off such a trap. (Kobold [[40d:thief|thieves]] have the ability to avoid traps, though it seems to have a small amount of randomness built in.)<br />
<br />
Note that, in combat situations, [[40d:Mechanic|Mechanic]]s (and others) have a nasty habit of wanting to reload (or clean) traps when they are triggered, regardless of who or what might be out there as well. [[40d:Forbid|Forbid]]ding traps after they are built will keep [[40d:Urist|Urist McSuicide]] from deciding to reload a stone trap in the middle of a [[40d:siege|siege]]. Just remember to unforbid them when things calm down, so the traps are all ready for next time.<br />
<br />
==Stone-fall Trap==<br />
The simplest trap to construct, a stone-fall trap is essentially a [[40d:stone|stone]] suspended up in the air which is dropped on intruders when the trap is triggered. These are a popular defensive measure early on, as the components needed are readily available as soon as you start mining. A single stone trap will kill or severely maim most [[40d:humanoid|humanoid]] enemies although [[40d:troll|troll]]s, [[40d:magma_man|magmamen]] and hardier creatures may take two or three to drop. Mythical creatures such as [[40d:dragon|dragon]]s, [[40d:hydra|hydra]]s and [[40d:titan|titan]]s will take upwards of five or six. After being used they need to be reloaded with another stone by any [[40d:dwarf|dwarf]] with [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]] [[40d:skill|skill]] enabled, a task which your dwarves will see to automatically. Being that stonefall traps do <em>not</em> alert you of ambushes when triggered by hidden invaders, this can frequently lead your mechanics into peril. <br />
:Shortcut {{k|s}}<br />
:Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and an ordinary [[40d:stone|stone]]<br />
<br />
==Weapon Trap==<br />
Weapon traps consist of any number of deadly instruments rigged to a mechanism. When an intruder sets off the trap, the [[40d:weapons|weapons]] spring out and strike the poor sap. You can add up to 10 weapons to a weapon trap, and they will all attack together when set off. This gives the potential for dealing significant amounts of damage at once. There are also special giant weapons such as the [[40d:large, serrated disc|large, serrated disc]] that are specially designed for use in weapon traps. Unlike stone-fall traps, weapon traps automatically reset after being triggered, ready to splatter the intruder's friends. But there is a (20%?)chance that the trap will become jammed with a corpse each time it kills a creature. A nearby dwarf will automatically clean a jammed trap; this does not require the [[40d:cleaning|cleaning]] labor or the [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]]s labor. <br />
<br />
If there are weapons that require ammunition ([[40d:crossbow|crossbow]]s, [[40d:bow|bow]]s, etc) in the trap, each such weapon requires appropriate ammo ([[40d:arrow|arrow]]s for bows, [[40d:Other weapon#dart|dart]]s for [[40d:blowgun|blowgun]]s, etc), and will have to be reloaded occasionally. Weapon traps using ''only'' ranged weapons will not require cleaning, but once all the ammo runs out, that weapon is done until reloaded. If a ranged weapon runs out of ammo, other trap weapons will still trigger. If non-ranged weapons are included in the same trap and jam, the entire trap jams until cleared. Ranged weapons in traps only target the creature triggering the trap, just as any other weapon - if the creature steps onto that trap, the trap targets that creature, once per triggering, until all ammo is gone. ''(This means "Range = 0".)'' <br />
<br />
Unlike other traps, weapon traps benefit from being constructed with high quality mechanisms. Weapon traps are more accurate the better their mechanism. Since weapon traps can be constructed with multiple weapons, and each weapon's attack is calculated separately, traps with multiple weapons benefit more from high-quality mechanisms than do traps with only one weapon. If you manage to get an artifact [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]], stuff it with as many weapons as possible!<br />
<br />
Weapon traps are a nice way of getting rid of any cheap, mediocre captured weapons, [[40d:wood|wood]]en weapons you don't need for sparring and weapons your dwarves can't use. Due to the bundling of weapons you don't have to worry much about the minor damage they would cause separately. There is no difference between low quality crossbows (wood, bone, copper) and high quality steel and adamantine crossbows—the metal only changes their effectiveness in melee. Thus wooden crossbows at the bowyer make for easy-to-produce trap weapons.<br />
<br />
:Shortcut {{k|w}}<br />
:Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and whatever [[40d:weapon|weapon]]s you want, up to ten.<br />
<br />
==Cage Trap==<br />
Cage traps capture creatures that set them off in [[40d:cage|cage]]s. After a creature is captured, it's stored, cage and all, in an animal [[40d:stockpile|stockpile]]. Then the trap is reloaded with another cage. You can do all sorts of fun things with [[40d:captured creatures|captured creatures]]. Creatures in cages will not be fed, they will survive indefinitely without nourishment. Cage traps will alert you to ambushes when triggered by hidden invaders, making a useful forward defense mechanism.<br />
<br />
It is possible that dwarves bring [[40d:water|water]] to cages, but that means that you have someone friendly also locked in the cage - like a dwarf [[40d:child|kid]] snatched by a [[40d:goblin|goblin]] babysnatcher. In this case remove the poor fellow using the goblin's inventory screen.<br />
A cage trap is one of the most effective ways to defeat powerful beasts, as even a [[40d:glass|glass]] cage (aquarium/terrarium) can imprison a [[40d:Bronze Colossus|Bronze Colossus]]. This is expected to be changed. Also, the creature captured in the cage will have no effect on the cage itself (a caged [[40d:fire imp|fire imp]] will not burn down a wooden cage, for example).<br />
<br />
Cage traps are also useful for catching animals for use in the [[40d:meat industry|meat industry]].<br />
<br />
:*Shortcut {{k|b}} {{k|T}} {{k|c}}<br />
:*Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and a [[40d:cage|cage]].<br />
:*If the trap is a Dark Green, then it does not have a cage in it.<br />
:*If the trap is a Light Green, Then it does have a cage in it.<br />
<br />
:'''NOTE:''' This trap will not catch [[40d:vermin|vermin]]. For that, you need an [[40d:animal trap|animal trap]].<br />
<br />
===Berserk dwarves===<br />
Cage traps will capture berserk dwarves, so it might be wise to keep them stored instead of killing them (for happiness purposes), since relationships they have with other dwarves are maintained. However, unlike other caged creatures, dwarves will starve to death over time inside a cage.<br />
<br />
==Upright Spear/Spike==<br />
<br />
These traps can only be utilized by attaching them to [[40d:lever|lever]]s or [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]]s, which when triggered will cause the [[40d:spike|spike]]s to extend from the ground and, when triggered again, to retract back into the ground. They don't slow or hurt any creature walking through them if they are not currently triggered by a lever/plate, neither when up nor when retracted.<br />
<br />
The lever task can be set to repeat which makes the spikes go up and down, but there is a high chance a creature will pass the spike trap before or after they shoot up, so you may want to build a row of at least 5 traps.<br />
<br />
The damage done depends, like with weapon traps, on the number and quality of the [[40d:spear|spear]]s and spikes used. One trap can be loaded with up to 10 spikes or spears. The fact that they do piercing damage makes them useful against more powerful foes which are most easily killed by damaging their organs. Using a single, no-[[40d:quality|quality]] spike made from [[40d:Damage#Material_damage_modifiers|low-damage material]] can be useful in attempting to cripple [[40d:noble|noble]]s when killing them outright is not desired, but much luck is in involved in the outcome.<br />
<br />
Spikes will, when triggered, damage creatures unaffected by other traps (kobold thieves and demons, but also dwarves, [[40d:pet|pet]]s and allied creatures). The traps' friendly fire means they make effective anti-[[40d:immigrant|immigrant]] traps. There are also reports that the spikes are effective against [[40d:demons|demons]], although spikes which are not made of [[40d:steel|steel]] may melt.<br />
<br />
Contrary to what one might think, the spikes appear to do no (additional) damage if a creature falls on them. There is therefore no advantage to putting the spikes at the bottom of a pit trap and you still have to connect them to a lever or pressure plate to cause injury -- not that you shouldn't do that anyway. <br />
<br />
Stuff does get stuck in spikes when they are triggered. Any [[40d:corpse|corpse]]s will appear as an item inside a spike's 'building' when they are out (the same way [[40d:mug|mug]]s and whatnot appear inside [[40d:workshop|workshop]]s when you first make them). Retracting the spikes lets the corpse out. If a corpse is in a square when the trap is triggered, it will be skewered again on the spike.<br />
<br />
Testing has shown that there is no limit to the number of creatures a single spike can strike and impale-testing with recruits ordered to stand on a retracted spike resulted in all six recruits getting killed instantaneously and stuck on the spike. Use with extreme caution.<br />
<br />
:Shortcut {{k|S}} (capitalized)<br />
:Components used: A [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] for the [[40d:lever|lever]] or [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]] and [[40d:spear|spear]]s or [[40d:spike|spike]]s.<br />
<br />
==Other Traps==<br />
You can create even more elaborate traps with imaginative use of pits, [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]]s, [[40d:lever|lever]]s, [[40d:repeater|repeater]]s, [[40d:grate|grate]]s, [[40d:support|support]]s, [[40d:water|water]], and/or [[40d:magma|magma]], creating sacrificial altars (blood for the Blood God!) and whatever else you can think of. Watching those goblins try to find a way out of your drowning chamber as it begins to fill is really quite satisfying. These are best made in a large, repeatable mass killing, way. If you make a trap that kills 10 or so goblins, that only works once and you have to rebuild it, wasting time you don't have during a [[40d:siege|siege]], you're not trying hard enough.<br />
<br />
See [[40d:Trap design|Trap design]]<br />
<br />
{{Buildings}}<br />
[[Category:Traps| ]]<br />
[[Category:Fortress defense]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d:Trap&diff=8414040d:Trap2010-04-05T15:45:25Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Weapon Trap */ mechanics -> mechanics</p>
<hr />
<div>{{red link}}<br />
{{av}}<br />
:''For traps used to catch [[40d:vermin|vermin]], see [[40d:animal trap|animal trap]].''<br />
<br />
'''Traps''' are a reliable and cost-effective method for defending any fortress. Unlike [[40d:soldier|soldier]]s, they're always on duty, and don't need to be carefully managed. On the other hand, they are immobile and can only lie in wait for foes to walk over them. To build a trap, go to the {{k|b}}uild->{{k|T}}raps/Levers menu. You'll generally need one [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]], a dwarf with the [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]] labor designated (ranks in this [[40d:skill|skill]] reduce the time to place a trap), and at least one other component depending on the type of trap - a stone, a cage, or one or more weapons. They can be built indoors or outdoors, and require a level ground square with no other constructions in them.<br />
<br />
Stone-fall, weapon and cage traps will be triggered by (most) any hostile entity entering their tile, with the exception of [[40d:kobold|kobold]] [[40d:thief|thieves]]. Additionally, '''any''' [[40d:unconscious|unconscious]] creature, including your own [[40d:dwarves|dwarves]], [[40d:pet|pet]]s and [[40d:war dog|war dog]]s, will also set off such a trap. (Kobold [[40d:thief|thieves]] have the ability to avoid traps, though it seems to have a small amount of randomness built in.)<br />
<br />
Note that, in combat situations, [[40d:Mechanic|Mechanic]]s (and others) have a nasty habit of wanting to reload (or clean) traps when they are triggered, regardless of who or what might be out there as well. [[40d:Forbid|Forbid]]ding traps after they are built will keep [[40d:Urist|Urist McSuicide]] from deciding to reload a stone trap in the middle of a [[40d:siege|siege]]. Just remember to unforbid them when things calm down, so the traps are all ready for next time.<br />
<br />
==Stone-fall Trap==<br />
The simplest trap to construct, a stone-fall trap is essentially a [[40d:stone|stone]] suspended up in the air which is dropped on intruders when the trap is triggered. These are a popular defensive measure early on, as the components needed are readily available as soon as you start mining. A single stone trap will kill or severely maim most [[40d:humanoid|humanoid]] enemies although [[40d:troll|troll]]s, [[40d:magma_man|magmamen]] and hardier creatures may take two or three to drop. Mythical creatures such as [[40d:dragon|dragon]]s, [[40d:hydra|hydra]]s and [[40d:titan|titan]]s will take upwards of five or six. After being used they need to be reloaded with another stone by any [[40d:dwarf|dwarf]] with [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]] [[40d:skill|skill]] enabled, a task which your dwarves will see to automatically. Being that stonefall traps do <em>not</em> alert you of ambushes when triggered by hidden invaders, this can frequently lead your mechanics into peril. <br />
:Shortcut {{k|s}}<br />
:Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and an ordinary [[40d:stone|stone]]<br />
<br />
==Weapon Trap==<br />
Weapon traps consist of any number of deadly instruments rigged to a mechanism. When an intruder sets off the trap, the [[40d:weapons|weapons]] spring out and strike the poor sap. You can add up to 10 weapons to a weapon trap, and they will all attack together when set off. This gives the potential for dealing significant amounts of damage at once. There are also special giant weapons such as the [[40d:large, serrated disc|large, serrated disc]] that are specially designed for use in weapon traps. Unlike stone-fall traps, weapon traps automatically reset after being triggered, ready to splatter the intruder's friends. But there is a (20%?)chance that the trap will become jammed with a corpse each time it kills a creature. A nearby dwarf will automatically clean a jammed trap; this does not require the [[40d:cleaning|cleaning]] labor or the [[40d:mechanic|mechanic]]s labor. <br />
<br />
If there are weapons that require ammunition ([[40d:crossbow|crossbow]]s, [[40d:bow|bow]]s, etc) in the trap, each such weapon requires appropriate ammo ([[40d:arrow|arrow]]s for bows, [[40d:dart|dart]]s for [[40d:blowgun|blowgun]]s, etc), and will have to be reloaded occasionally. Weapon traps using ''only'' ranged weapons will not require cleaning, but once all the ammo runs out, that weapon is done until reloaded. If a ranged weapon runs out of ammo, other trap weapons will still trigger. If non-ranged weapons are included in the same trap and jam, the entire trap jams until cleared. Ranged weapons in traps only target the creature triggering the trap, just as any other weapon - if the creature steps onto that trap, the trap targets that creature, once per triggering, until all ammo is gone. ''(This means "Range = 0".)'' <br />
<br />
Unlike other traps, weapon traps benefit from being constructed with high quality mechanisms. Weapon traps are more accurate the better their mechanism. Since weapon traps can be constructed with multiple weapons, and each weapon's attack is calculated separately, traps with multiple weapons benefit more from high-quality mechanisms than do traps with only one weapon. If you manage to get an artifact [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]], stuff it with as many weapons as possible!<br />
<br />
Weapon traps are a nice way of getting rid of any cheap, mediocre captured weapons, [[40d:wood|wood]]en weapons you don't need for sparring and weapons your dwarves can't use. Due to the bundling of weapons you don't have to worry much about the minor damage they would cause separately. There is no difference between low quality crossbows (wood, bone, copper) and high quality steel and adamantine crossbows—the metal only changes their effectiveness in melee. Thus wooden crossbows at the bowyer make for easy-to-produce trap weapons.<br />
<br />
:Shortcut {{k|w}}<br />
:Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and whatever [[40d:weapon|weapon]]s you want, up to ten.<br />
<br />
==Cage Trap==<br />
Cage traps capture creatures that set them off in [[40d:cage|cage]]s. After a creature is captured, it's stored, cage and all, in an animal [[40d:stockpile|stockpile]]. Then the trap is reloaded with another cage. You can do all sorts of fun things with [[40d:captured creatures|captured creatures]]. Creatures in cages will not be fed, they will survive indefinitely without nourishment. Cage traps will alert you to ambushes when triggered by hidden invaders, making a useful forward defense mechanism.<br />
<br />
It is possible that dwarves bring [[40d:water|water]] to cages, but that means that you have someone friendly also locked in the cage - like a dwarf [[40d:child|kid]] snatched by a [[40d:goblin|goblin]] babysnatcher. In this case remove the poor fellow using the goblin's inventory screen.<br />
A cage trap is one of the most effective ways to defeat powerful beasts, as even a [[40d:glass|glass]] cage (aquarium/terrarium) can imprison a [[40d:Bronze Colossus|Bronze Colossus]]. This is expected to be changed. Also, the creature captured in the cage will have no effect on the cage itself (a caged [[40d:fire imp|fire imp]] will not burn down a wooden cage, for example).<br />
<br />
Cage traps are also useful for catching animals for use in the [[40d:meat industry|meat industry]].<br />
<br />
:*Shortcut {{k|b}} {{k|T}} {{k|c}}<br />
:*Components used: [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] and a [[40d:cage|cage]].<br />
:*If the trap is a Dark Green, then it does not have a cage in it.<br />
:*If the trap is a Light Green, Then it does have a cage in it.<br />
<br />
:'''NOTE:''' This trap will not catch [[40d:vermin|vermin]]. For that, you need an [[40d:animal trap|animal trap]].<br />
<br />
===Berserk dwarves===<br />
Cage traps will capture berserk dwarves, so it might be wise to keep them stored instead of killing them (for happiness purposes), since relationships they have with other dwarves are maintained. However, unlike other caged creatures, dwarves will starve to death over time inside a cage.<br />
<br />
==Upright Spear/Spike==<br />
<br />
These traps can only be utilized by attaching them to [[40d:lever|lever]]s or [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]]s, which when triggered will cause the [[40d:spike|spike]]s to extend from the ground and, when triggered again, to retract back into the ground. They don't slow or hurt any creature walking through them if they are not currently triggered by a lever/plate, neither when up nor when retracted.<br />
<br />
The lever task can be set to repeat which makes the spikes go up and down, but there is a high chance a creature will pass the spike trap before or after they shoot up, so you may want to build a row of at least 5 traps.<br />
<br />
The damage done depends, like with weapon traps, on the number and quality of the [[40d:spear|spear]]s and spikes used. One trap can be loaded with up to 10 spikes or spears. The fact that they do piercing damage makes them useful against more powerful foes which are most easily killed by damaging their organs. Using a single, no-[[40d:quality|quality]] spike made from [[40d:Damage#Material_damage_modifiers|low-damage material]] can be useful in attempting to cripple [[40d:noble|noble]]s when killing them outright is not desired, but much luck is in involved in the outcome.<br />
<br />
Spikes will, when triggered, damage creatures unaffected by other traps (kobold thieves and demons, but also dwarves, [[40d:pet|pet]]s and allied creatures). The traps' friendly fire means they make effective anti-[[40d:immigrant|immigrant]] traps. There are also reports that the spikes are effective against [[40d:demons|demons]], although spikes which are not made of [[40d:steel|steel]] may melt.<br />
<br />
Contrary to what one might think, the spikes appear to do no (additional) damage if a creature falls on them. There is therefore no advantage to putting the spikes at the bottom of a pit trap and you still have to connect them to a lever or pressure plate to cause injury -- not that you shouldn't do that anyway. <br />
<br />
Stuff does get stuck in spikes when they are triggered. Any [[40d:corpse|corpse]]s will appear as an item inside a spike's 'building' when they are out (the same way [[40d:mug|mug]]s and whatnot appear inside [[40d:workshop|workshop]]s when you first make them). Retracting the spikes lets the corpse out. If a corpse is in a square when the trap is triggered, it will be skewered again on the spike.<br />
<br />
Testing has shown that there is no limit to the number of creatures a single spike can strike and impale-testing with recruits ordered to stand on a retracted spike resulted in all six recruits getting killed instantaneously and stuck on the spike. Use with extreme caution.<br />
<br />
:Shortcut {{k|S}} (capitalized)<br />
:Components used: A [[40d:mechanism|mechanism]] for the [[40d:lever|lever]] or [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]] and [[40d:spear|spear]]s or [[40d:spike|spike]]s.<br />
<br />
==Other Traps==<br />
You can create even more elaborate traps with imaginative use of pits, [[40d:pressure plate|pressure plate]]s, [[40d:lever|lever]]s, [[40d:repeater|repeater]]s, [[40d:grate|grate]]s, [[40d:support|support]]s, [[40d:water|water]], and/or [[40d:magma|magma]], creating sacrificial altars (blood for the Blood God!) and whatever else you can think of. Watching those goblins try to find a way out of your drowning chamber as it begins to fill is really quite satisfying. These are best made in a large, repeatable mass killing, way. If you make a trap that kills 10 or so goblins, that only works once and you have to rebuild it, wasting time you don't have during a [[40d:siege|siege]], you're not trying hard enough.<br />
<br />
See [[40d:Trap design|Trap design]]<br />
<br />
{{Buildings}}<br />
[[Category:Traps| ]]<br />
[[Category:Fortress defense]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:GarrieIrons/monobook.js&diff=83519User:GarrieIrons/monobook.js2010-04-05T07:54:33Z<p>GarrieIrons: Created page with 'importScript('User:Briess/hideAnnouncements.js');'</p>
<hr />
<div>importScript('User:Briess/hideAnnouncements.js');</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=v0.31_Talk:Tileset&diff=78030v0.31 Talk:Tileset2010-04-02T10:13:34Z<p>GarrieIrons: </p>
<hr />
<div>Alright! I was the one that did the Mayday port and I can safely say that the maydaymix fix does not really work (in my testing anyway). The simplest way to fix it is to generate a world, it'll drop the tiles, exit and re-enter. You'll never have problems again. I should note that means my original version worked when I said it was glitched, but I was half-right: the binary probably does have errors. --[[User:Cr9|Cr9]] 01:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I followed exactly the steps listed on this page, then I genned a new world, and it worked fine. Also, Thanks! :) [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 01:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)<br />
::Someone please confirm my suspicion - unlike previous "all in one" distros, this requires you do d/l "vanilla DF2010" then d/l Mayday tileset?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)<br />
::nevermind, it seems 7-zip is just better compression than what Toady used. for the non-enlightened, just d/l the Mayday file.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:GarrieIrons&diff=78027User:GarrieIrons2010-04-02T09:56:49Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Updates */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hey ho, it's me, the same guy as at Wikipedia with the self same imaginative name which is my real one...<br />
<br />
it's also my mailbox name at hotmail.com.<br />
Or [http://twitter.com/garrieirons I'm on twitter].<br />
<br />
I have come here via Vanilla [[Angband]], a real [[roguelike]] [[game]].<br />
<br />
I ran a [[/log|log]] of my early gaming experience and thoughts. I did manage to update it each session or so but have stopped now. Once I can get a settlement over 100 dwarves, producing metal items, and running screw pumps from water or wind power sources I will have another go. <br />
<br />
<br />
==Updates==<br />
*2 April 2010: After not being able to connect to the forum yesterday, I worked out it was because there was an April Fool release. OMFG How could I miss it?<br />
*31 August 2008: I made my first set of [[plate mail]]. It was [[bronze]] of course but hey metal armor is metal armor!<br />
*3 September 2008: Started a new fortress, "Teskomolin", which has the following features:<br />
**Volcano (picked location for this feature)<br />
**Cave system<br />
**Kobold village with widespread loot<br />
**Cavern<br />
**Brook<br />
**[[Iron man|Iron men]] - yes, several<br />
::Actually beginning play revealed that there are extensive seams of gold, silver, aluminium, and a wide variety of gems. The kobolds are safely on the other side of a chasm (cliffs on both sides with the brook through the middle). This looks like a keeper!<br />
*19 September: Teskomolin is still active. Made my first warhammer, spear, battleaxe, mace due to an abundance of [[silver]]. Hopefully my next wave of immigrants may have some professional soldiers!<br />
* Playing onulbudam, have become a barony with 10 artifacts including usable furniture and a weapon. Legendary craftsmen include masons, weaponsmith, metalsmith, and stone carvers. Created wealth on becoming a barony is 1168404.<br />
===Unusual artifacts===<br />
# [[:Image:Bebmal kirar.png|Bebmal Kirar]] is a door made of [[gazelle]] [[bone]] made by my [[trapper]] in a [[Craftsdwarf's workshop|craftsdwarf's]] [[workshop]].<br />
# [[:Image:Avedbungek Lushutecem.PNG|Avedbungek Lushutecem]] is a [[millstone]] made of [[granite]] by my [[mason]]. It features an image showing my [[dwarf|dwarves]] striking down an [[iron man]]. History of the fortress "Teskomolin" recorded for all time! or until abandonment at any rate...<br />
# iltangbukith Zilirdumatnomal Lek, "Forkedturmoils the Eternal Rough Staff" is a [[bracelet]] made of [[Felsite]] by my [[soap|soapmaker]] in a [[kitchen]]. It features an image showing [[dwarf|dwarves]] speaking and another image of [[dwarf|dwarves]] [[labor|labouring]]. Creating this artifact changed my journeyman soapmaker into a legendary [[stonecrafter]].<br />
<br><br />
<div style="background: black; width: 50em;"><font face="FixedSys" color="#C0C0C0">Garrie is quite pleased about being part of a great project. He has [[on break|played]] little Dwarf Fortress recently. He is exstatic that his brother has had a [[child]] recently. He [[sleep|slept]] in a [[quality|fine]] [[bedroom]] recently. He [[food|ate]] in a nice dining room recently. He has recovered from feeling [[vomit|ill]] and being unable to [[Personality traits#ACHIEVEMENT_STRIVING|work]]. He admired his own [[farm plot|garden]] recently. He has been satisfied at work recently. <br><br>Garrie spends time at other websites related to [http://facebook.com friends] and [http://angband.oook.cz/ angband].<br />
<br />
Garrie likes computer games, working outdoors, and [[dog]]s for their playfulness. When possible, he prefers to consume [[cow|beef]] and [[alcohol|bourbon]]. He absolutely dispises bogans. [[DwarfFortressWiki:Community Portal|He dislikes disorder]].<br><br>Garrie prefers working outdoor and rarely complains about [[rain|inclement weather]]. He often does the first activity that comes to hand but continues with it for waaaay tooo long. He enjoys alcohol but does not rely on it to get through the working day. He is not the [[guard|hardened individual]] that he used to be.</font></div></div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=v0.31_Talk:Tileset&diff=78026v0.31 Talk:Tileset2010-04-02T09:55:13Z<p>GarrieIrons: </p>
<hr />
<div>Alright! I was the one that did the Mayday port and I can safely say that the maydaymix fix does not really work (in my testing anyway). The simplest way to fix it is to generate a world, it'll drop the tiles, exit and re-enter. You'll never have problems again. I should note that means my original version worked when I said it was glitched, but I was half-right: the binary probably does have errors. --[[User:Cr9|Cr9]] 01:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I followed exactly the steps listed on this page, then I genned a new world, and it worked fine. Also, Thanks! :) [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 01:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)<br />
::Someone please confirm my suspicion - unlike previous "all in one" distros, this requires you do d/l "vanilla DF2010" then d/l Mayday tileset?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page/archive2&diff=68611Talk:Main Page/archive22010-03-08T10:32:53Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Namespaces */ new section</p>
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<div>{{Archive|<br />
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive1|Archive 1]]<br />
}}<br />
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<br />
== World Painter Page ==<br />
The wiki has needed a page on the [[World Painter]] for a while, so I've started one. The information in there is decent, but I'm relatively new to wiki editing, so the formatting probably isn't. If someone wouldn't mind cleaning it up a bit for me I'd really appreciate it. --[[User:Timmeh|Timmeh]] 01:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well I don't know if someone helped you already, but it looks fine to me. --[[User:frandude|frandude]]<br />
:I changed the name into World Painter so it looked better (no more petty redirects!) [[User:Inawarminister|Inawarminister]] 12:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== French language wiki ==<br />
<br />
Can we have interlanguage links with the [http://www.dwarffortress.fr/wiki/ French wiki]? -[[User:Alan Trick|Alan Trick]] 17:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Add a CptnDuck page? ==<br />
<br />
Captain Duck is a DF video tutorial maker, which an impressive collection of 40 videos on youtube (and a few extra videos of sieges and arenas and whatnot), and explains how to do most everything, from magma forges to Dwarven justice. He adds humor to it and he's the reason a lot of people understand the game...I think we should give him a page. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Blackdoggie998|Blackdoggie998]]</small><br />
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:As it is insanely easy for anyone to sign up for editing priviledges on this site (I managed to, after all), I see no need to make one for him when he could make one for himself. However, if you wish to add user:CptnDuck, or invite him to make one himself, feel free. He can link to all of his tutorials from his user page. They even be searchable through that lovely little box to the(my) left. (Who knows where it is on your skin.) -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.<br />
<br />
:P.S. Does it seem odd to you to have it say "unsigned comment by [username]"? Or is that just me? -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, just a little after the previous one.<br />
:: Clicking 'unsigned' gave me all the explanation I need, might want to do the same [[User:Kinzarr|Kinzarr]] 23:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:We don't need a userpage for him, but a page with the assembled listing of all his (and others of equal quality) video tutorials wouldn't be a bad idea at all. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 16:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Articles on Olivine and other generic stones ==<br />
<br />
There is a current discussion as to whether or not [[Olivine]] (and perhaps some few other stones) are duly covered on the current [[stone]] page, or are truly worth having their own article/page. This relates to a larger question of how this wiki is organized, and "What deserves a page" in a general sense. Any interested are encouraged to chime in, if only with a "me too" post pro or con. See [[Talk:Olivine]] for an idea of the issue. I'd like to have the debate move from the specific Olivine page to here since this is a more general issue that affects many potential pages. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 21:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I'm not really sure which way to go on this one. A lot of otherwise useless stones would need their own articles if the guidelines were expanded... and yet, there's a good amount of useful information that's not on the main pages, that would further clutter them if it were added; And permitting more individual pages would solve both those problems. I guess this ends up being a vote both ways, with provisions on each. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 23:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
:My vote is, if someone can make it amusing, then sure. If someone is of the bent to enjoy making such a page, then again, sure... otherwise, leave it at the bottom of the pile of "things that someday we might get around to if we feel like it" and don't stress. The relevant data is covered (or will be when someone notices it's not), and everything else is gravy. Beside, what would you rather do, play the game, or figure out how to make a whole page of jokes about how gneiss nice is.... (or did I get that backwards?)... ? --[[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.<br />
<br />
<br />
::All relevant information is covered, yes. But not necessarily on a relevant page. Before the Olivine page was made you couldn't learn that olivine may contain native platinum from any page related to olivine or stone in general. <br />
::Another example is kaolinite. You can look it up in the table of Other Stone to see it can be found in sedimentary rock. But in order to see that it may itself contain alunite and marcasite you have to go through the entire table (or use the browser search function). Now, in order to see if it may contain anything else, you have to notice the note at the top of the page (just above the table of contents) that points to Metal Ore and Gem, whith another two tables you have to search through. (Kaolinite may contain turquoise). --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 21:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:It's not just about "which stones" - it's a larger question of how the wiki is organized and presented. Should each separate and distinct item get its own page, like the current one- or two-line articles on [[vial]]s, [[instrument]]s or [[Restraint|chain]]s, (just as random parallel examples of some [[finished goods]] that have their very own, very short, very dull, and predictably repetitive articles.) Surely the [[Masons guild]] and [[miners guild]] don't deserve or need separate articles. Do we need a separate and largely redundant article for every trap weapon? What about the cookie-cutter articles on ''every'' individual animal? The GCS deserves its own, and many others, but one on each separate type of shark and hunting cat? There is no actual article there, only a template.<br />
<br />
:Quivers and bolts are sub-sections of the [[crossbow]] article, and I think that's a ''great'' call. Olivine, talc and kaolinite are merely similar examples, distinct enough to warrant special treatment, but on the borderline of being so small to each only represent a stub. Ultimately, I don't think a functional formal definition would be easily achieved - rather guidelines and a fuzzy target, combining related info into groups with optimal size limitations (both lower end and upper end). Perhaps a template should not be forced on every lesser example, but they could be grouped into a table on their own article, "other stones of note" or "sharks" or "finished goods" or whatever.<br />
<br />
:In many ways, our only current guidelines are "what has been done so far" - and that varies widely and wildly. Too often, pages are cobbled onto related ones, or split off just because its a new topic, if a brutally short one. Myself, I'd like to see most related articles of less than 4 lines or so get grouped into larger, more universally informative articles, and anything larger than maybe 5 full sub-sections be considered for splitting up. If an item stands out from the rest, it should stand out somewhere, in an article - but that doesn't mean it has to have its very own, or invite every similar item to do so as well.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 03:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Please check out the (no longer) current [[Chalk]] page and tell me what you think. ... which is to say, it doesn't /have/ to be a stub, does it? It can be rich and detailed and sadly unamusing. It would please me to continue to do all stones in this manner, or another manner of your choosing.... Thus negating fussing over "this one was done this way, that one was done that way" arguments. I'll get to them all, in the order they appear on the [[Stones]] page. ... assuming you guys are ok with that. --[[User:Teres Draconis]] 08:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: P.S. Who's the outpost manager of this place, anyways? I'd like to know to whom I should be pandering. --jaz<br />
<br />
::: I think 1) you should take time to read, if not learn the wiki format guidelines, 2) you should sign with your REAL user name, and stop using a pseudonym, and 3) you should not break someone else's post with yours in between their paragraphs. As to the chalk page, I think it's over-enthusiastic and pays no attention to previous article style or formatting precedent - which may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 09:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: 1) You're right, I'm sorry. <br />
::::2) We've discussed user names on [[User_Talk:Teres_Draconis#Naming Conventions|my talks page]]. (Also, <nowiki>~~~</nowiki> still puts "jaz"... why bother with the link when it's just a P.S.?) <br />
::::3) I'm sorry. I was (apparently) trained wrong, and that was a /long/ time ago. I was taught (20 years ago) that when responding, to do so in-line, so that people can tell what the response is actually relating to. (Like an actual conversation, except with a time warp. You say something, I respond, someone else adds, we all move on to the next topic.) It supposedly adds clarity. The style and curtesy rules of such things has changed. I can see I'll need to update myself. Thank you for pointing that out. =)<br />
::::4) I was hasty. I had to have meatspace people explain to me why, as wiki-''writers'', you would not want so much detail on a page. Especially when, with every new game release, any given page on the wiki might need an over haul. I was only looking at it from the end-user perspective of "If I'm looking for information, I don't want a page that just tells me to go look at the three pages I've already looked at. I want a page that reduces the noise of the irrelevant, and distills to just that specific (sub-)topic." I /don't/ see the point of six pages that are identacle except for title, and all only three lines long. If it's got it's own page, it should have it's own page. If it just links back to the three pages that linked to it, and they all link to each other already, what's the point? If the only thing Chalk has going for it is that it's flux, why not just make a note on the [[Stone]] page reading, "These three rocks can be used as flux" and link to the flux page from there? Why should chalk have it's own page, if it's not going to be richly detailed and, you know, informative? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::::The templates are there because they are pretty, detailed, and condensed ways to display some key information. Rather than expanding existing information so that it takes up more space, it's more productive to add things that you think are lacking. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::: I changed the other [[Stones]] table to allow for interesting minerals that are in other[[Stones]] to be posted.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:What would actually be helpful is a [[Geology]] primer, indicating how layers and inclusions are placed, where, and what the implications of "You have struck XXX" are. I know, now, that if it's olivine, I have a chance of finding veins of native platinum. One good page explaining what all of the geological processes mean would be a lot more useful then all of the various descriptions of exploratory mining. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 22:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
::That sounds like a great idea.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::I agree! But I have no idea how to write it. Most of what I know about geology I learned from looking at the raws. Everything else is "OMG, is that a ''rock''?! I've heard of those!" - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::"More useful" to some, but I agree it would be a great addition. Also, the more I think about it, the more I like what MrDG did with the table in Other Stone - tables could condense any and all small, individual articles into single pages w/ (sortable?) tables where all these various similar objects could be compared/contrasted at a glance. Templates are perfect when there is a lot of various info, but if the different topics (semi-generic stones, animals, finished goods) all differ only in one or two details, and there is just not that many variables to begin with, a Table would be (imo) preferable. ''(And imo that table now covers such stones as Olivine well, to get back to the original example that sparked this discussion.)''<br />
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::As an additional example of how current stub-articles could be combined into a simple table, I've made this page - [[Example - some fish]] - which could be a model for such. (A page/table with all the "Sea-creatures" would be more likely approp, but this was faster for now.) It would replace every stub-article on related "generic" items, but any truly noteworthy items would still have their own full articles for expanded information and commentary (here, "carp"). It still has 100% of the prev information, but also allows immediate comparison and contrast, and, if sortable, allows a User to more easily compare relations between similar aspects (like "biome", in this example.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::: Is it possible to put the expandable version of the raw ("game object data (show)" seen at the bottom of the [[carp]] page) inside the table, instead of the whole thing? Or does the one preclude the other? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, if someone finds it easy to extract that information from the .RAWs, I would find that an improvement on what [[Creatures]] currently has. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 17:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::::If someone here knows PHP they may be able to write a new wiki hook that pulls information from raw entries. That would make many things much easier. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::Which information do you want extracted? I can probably do it for you, but you may have heard, I'm in the doghouse for not paying attention to style and formating rules. =/ Show me what there is, and one example of what you want, and I can probably do it for you with a minimum of stupid questions. ... ''Probably.'' - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::::@ jaz, Dec - Did either of you look at this sample table? [[Example - some fish]] Does that cover what you were envisioning? It's just a rough idea - but it could work the same way that the table on the [[stone]] page currently does, to cover all the generic, almost-identical objects. Same w/ finished goods, weapon traps, probably many other sim categories of like items.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
I've read this sort of. My view is, wikis add value to the game far more for noobs than they do to legends who have been around since when the z-axis was just an idea. With this in mind, I reckon if everything with a name in the game had an article that would be *A Good Thing* (tm). Just my own opinion, feel free to disagree. Ideally, articles for things like stones should contain a template constructed from the raws, with prose/dialogue manually added.<br />
Even things like [[screw pump]] could have a template driven section, advising what the components are / who makes it etc. Maybe <nowiki>{{building|Building Name|Component 1:Component 1 name|Component X| component X name|Constructed by|trade}}</nowiki> or similar.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 08:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree, probably, although that sounds like a lot of work. I think the stone templates and articles could do with a bit of a cleanup and more in-game information. I mostly use the articles to see if there's anything notable about a particular stone and then check out the wikipedia page. Some of the wikipedia links are broken or indirect now because disambiguity pages have been added since. Also, the wikipedia links are right at the bottom of very long boxes listing ores and gems and the like - I suggest adding drop down boxes to the templates that contain all that information but which are minimized by default. Or changing the template so that the wikipedia link wraps around the stone name at the top. --[[User:Harmonica|Harmonica]] 01:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Way late to this party, apologies. Tables are no good (to me) if they aren't sortable. The World Ends With You (a Nintendo DS game) Wikia portal/wiki thing has an ''awesome'' method for adding sortable tables. Some gadget called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki Semantic MediaWiki] that hooks into the Wiki to automatically pull data out as you request it, then display it in easy-to-read and use sortable tables. The TWEWY Wikia has [http://twewy.wikia.com/wiki/The_World_Ends_With_You:Semantic_MediaWiki a page on it] for their editors, giving a few examples of how powerful it is. Their use of the tool is to easily pull information from a table of 304 items, each containing 30 attributes, to generate lists comparing and compiling various items. Hugely powerful, extremely flexible.<br />
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This type of tool would work wonderfully with a PHP RAW parser, or even simple dumps of the RAWs to the Wiki. Think of how easy it would be to update the entire Wiki across the board when new versions come out. New critters? Changes to existing critters? Update the information in one spot and it trickles down through the entire Wiki! That's in addition, of course, to being able to, say, generate tables listing how many bones each creature drops when killed, then sort to see which one drops the most. Pretty sweet stuff.<br />
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With some sort of system in place for wading through all the data on the wiki, one wouldn't have to worry about having too much information, right? -- [[User:Blank|Blank]] 04:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Particularly for stone, I think that it would be a good idea to describe each individual stone relative to other, similar stones. Let's use [[sandstone]] as an example. Suppose that I read (either in its own article, or in a table) something along the lines of "Sandstone is a [[sedimentary]] layer. Unlike most sedimentary layers, it may contain [[aquifers]] or veins of [[native copper]]." If I already know what a sedimentary layer is (and how it differs from other types of layers), this information will be much easier to process and much more useful than a full list of everything that appears in sandstone. If I have no idea what a sedimentary layer is, this will tell me that there are several sedimentary layers and that they all have many things in common, which is again more useful than a list of everything that appears in sandstone. --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 08:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:That's not the way this (any?) wiki is set up. The idea is that a lesser concept (here, "sandstone") need not include redundant info from a larger, parent concept (here, "sedimentary layer"). If you don't know what a sed'y layer is (or an aquifer or a vein or whatever) you click that link. If, then, you don't know what a "layer" is, you click that link. Sounds good at first, but if every lesser article included an explanation, even a quick synopsis, of the info for all relevant articles on broader, umbrella concepts, the articles, and this wiki as a whole, would explode beyond usefulness. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks for making my point for me. If you look at the current sandstone article, it lists everything contained in sandstone. Looking at just the ores and non-generic stones, we have: Native copper, Hematite, Limonite, Magnetite, Native platinum, Tetrahedrite, Bituminous coal, Lignite, Bauxite. All of these except for native copper appear in every sedimentary layer. That's not even counting all of the generic stone (especially gypsum with its five other types of generic stone contained in it) and (mostly low-value) gems. 95% of the text in this article is redundant, and could easily be summarized by "This layer is exactly like every other sedimentary layer except for these two differences". --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 09:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::Ah - ''that's'' your point. (When you said "describe", I thought you were advocating a narrative commentary on and verbal expansion of the info included in the sidebar.) When I was talking about not having redundant info, I was talking text - which is quite terse in this case, exactly because of the point you make. Those sidebars were designed to encapsulate the key info, an "at a glance" sort of thing, to avoid exactly what you're talking about in narrative form. Are the sidebars redundant? Often, yes. But they are the style this wiki has adopted for ''all'' stone. So you're talking not just about changing sed'y layers, but the style approach to all stone, since they would not then be consistent across the board. (Not how I would have personally designed the layout, but it's there and it works, and well. Any stone, same layout, same info in the same place, bam got it.) And when discussing presentation and usability issues, any article has to be taken both individually and in the context of others "like" it - here, any "stone" article is the same layout, the same info at a glance, which (for now) trumps whatever redundancies exist. Perhaps a quick line such as you're stating would go well, since there is, indeed, very little unique to say about any one sub-type of sedimentary layer, and that is info in and of itself. (Take a look at any [[igneous extrusive]] except obsidian for something similar.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 16:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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A lot of people have been talking a lot of things about reorganizing the information on the stones pages. After browsing around on them for a while, I've found the information to be mostly scattered and difficult to draw conclusions from. For example, I wasn't aware that each geographic stone type had a base list of stones that can appear, while only some of them have a couple of unique stones that may appear along with that list. It wasn't until I began gathering all of that data together for myself, that I found the patterns. I had to work to tie it all together. So, I have a partially completed table of pulldown menus on my user page right now. If anyone's interested they could take a look and tell me what they think? (Yes, I know a lot of it is redundant. I have an idea on how to fix this, but I haven't completely decided yet) --Kydo 13:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Not a Roguelike ==<br />
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Dwarf Fortress only resembles a Roguelike in the sense that everything kills you. ASCII graphics haven't connoted Rogue-resemblance since Diablo came out with modern 3D graphics and was still considered a Roguelike.<br />
[[User:LogicalDash|LogicalDash]] 22:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
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I agree with you for Fortress mode, but adventurer mode is rogue like.--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 22:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:DF is rogue-like like.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 08:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
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LogicalDash, Diablo is in 2D, not 3D. --[[User:612DwarfAvenue|612DwarfAvenue]] 05:10, 27 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Link to Add Quotes ==<br />
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To get help on how to add quotes to the main page, consult [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|this]] link.<br />
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== Incoming New Version ==<br />
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Guys. We might as well prepare for the new version that will be coming by the end of the year (maybe). What will need to change? Weapons and armor, the underground stuff... I don't know all of it. But it's extensive. Get ready.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Well, we don't know all the details, and names of jobs/items can change before actual release. [[User:Kurokikaze|Kurokikaze]] 16:14, 8 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:I don't see what this has to do with anything, i guess it's nice of you to tell us. But what do you mean "get ready?"<br />
: Gird your loins, gentlemen. Or something.<br />
::It'll be hard to cover every page - if you edit, try to follow up on links, etc. Might also have to check the "oldest pages" listing to see that they've all been updated (except it's broken atm). The worst currently is that we ''still'' have legacy crap from earlier versions in obscure corners and comments that's not relevant to current version. Bonus.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:This might be useful: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AT8EQVUjrv96ZGc5cnBwOHZfMjgyY3FzZHFtanA&hl=en<br />
:Are we just changing this wiki? (as opposed to forking with the new version, in case some people keep playing 40d?) [[Special:Contributions/206.45.111.58|206.45.111.58]] 22:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Forking sounds good to me. But I have no idea how well wikis handle forking. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 14:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::In any case I think it would be a good idea to updated articles as is, and not wipe them out like in the wiki's switch to 3d which simply wiped out a lot of good information along with outdated text. Forking is a good route to take if people don't want to lose 40d inforamtion. [[User:Richards|Richards]] 19:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Interwiki ==<br />
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Correct link to Russian DF wiki, please.<br />
Right link = www.dfwk.ru instead current www.dfwiki.ru --[[Special:Contributions/91.192.82.106|91.192.82.106]] 11:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
:It's done, so should we delete this conservation? (not that great at wiki myself) [[User:Inawarminister|Inawarminister]] 09:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Random page ==<br />
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Why is "Random page" only bringing me to "Count Consort"? :\ --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 22:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
:It seems "Random page" is only random daily... Is this intentional? --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 20:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
::There's probably something wrong with your browser cache settings - it works fine for me. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Random images ==<br />
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Where are the images on the main page coming from? It's easy to find the quotes, but where are the images? [[User:MC Dirty|MC Dirty]] 15:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:I have an image I'd like added... I'll put it on my userpage if anyone wants to take a look at it and see if it's acceptable for uploading. --[[User:Waladil|Waladil]] 06:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== New Category Idea - Well Known Dwarves ==<br />
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After reading some stories on many of the most awesome dwarfs to show up in this game. (Namely Captain Ironblood, Morul, Tholtig) That a category, perhaps a sub one to Humor and Stories just for Dwarves that are very very clearly above the normal for the already outrageous(ly awesome) game of Dwarf Fortress. However do to the fact this is less on the game mechanics and such, the idea is first here so other's can figure if it's worth having a category. One thing that comes to mind is there really should be some sort of limit to what makes a Dwarf and Epic/Well Known Dwarf so as to prevent people from putting everyone they liked up there rather then the few '''everyone''' likes. Mostly asking as there is a handful of such dwarfs and that number is only going to (slowly) grow. Each said Dwarf I think deserves some sort of noting on a page for my two cents on the topic.<br />
:I definitely thing that this is a great idea in the true spirit of DF.<br />
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== Images ==<br />
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So, what does everyone think? Would it be a good idea to have real-world images (or possibly sketches for fantasy, if applicable) of the following:<br />
* Trees<br />
* Fish<br />
* Land animals<br />
* Weapons and armor<br />
* Stones<br />
* Ores<br />
* Land features (desert, savannah, etc.)<br />
* Gems<br />
* Metals<br />
* Plants<br />
We already have two pages with example images for a [[Pike_(weapon)#Pike|weapon]] and a [[Sandstone|stone]] for example. I find this very nice for visualizing my fortress and what's going on, since I'm not very familiar with many of the distinctions DF makes. I mean, I know what a fish looks like but I haven't got a clue what the difference between a pike and a char is, or a birch and alder, or even bronze and pewter to be honest.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 22:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:The normal issues with this kind of thing is REAL-WORLD publishers being annoying with copyright. I guess if we can find it from the real-world wiki then there is a good chance it is a public domain image.<br />
:There is no way in the world it would hurt an article to have one of these. Although, for fantasy objects, materials, and creatures, there may well be some discussion about if the "Dragon" should be a European, Oriental, or some other dragon (and so on for the rest).<br />
:<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
::Well, I've added pictures to some of the layer stones and vermin, as well as all the ores. If anyone is interested, you can link to files on wikimedia commons as if they were internal files now.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 04:52, 8 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::What if those of us with artistic skills were to produce original content for such pages? For example, I could easily do a few drawings depicting certain fantasy creatures as well as actual creatures. --Kydo 22:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
::Who says that the 'Dragon' as a creature isn't a generalization of any species? To be honest, with the graphics as they are, I think that most of Dwarf Fortress comes down to the way the user imagines it, rather than how it appears on screen. Rather like the old text based adventure games of old.--[[Special:Contributions/85.12.64.150|85.12.64.150]] 10:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Whoever you are, that is why i don't use a tileset.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:As a rule of thumb, "graphics" are good things - eye candy, if nothing else. Purty. Use common sense and discretion when choosing (or creating) the image - avoid genre-specific images or anything that is copyrighted (like from an identifiable RPG, for instance), and perhaps add "artist's interpretation" under it, or a selection of (smaller) different images for something like a dragon (tho' I, personally, don't see dwarves with oriental dragons - ymmv.) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:(Also, if you're interested enough to post in the Main Page Discussion, you might want to get an account. Meh.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== No link to World Generation? ==<br />
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Home page needs a link to World Generation. I thought of adding it, but didn't want to upset the delicate symmetry happing in the menus. Thoughts as to where it could go? [[Special:Contributions/118.208.7.232|118.208.7.232]] 04:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Namespaces ==<br />
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As the subject has been mentioned on the forum:<br />
some articles have been moved to a new 40d namespace. This is intended to make way for the "main" namespace to be reserved for the "current version", which ''real soon now'' will be DF2010.<br />
For the full discussion see [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions]] and the talk page.<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions&diff=68609Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions2010-03-08T09:22:07Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Consensus? */</p>
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<div>== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==<br />
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Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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: I did see that before and I think that's awesome as notes about particular items in an article, but it doesn't quite bring us to the two goals I hoped for [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions|here]]. It informs users about a statement but because of the difficulty (and undesirability) of labeling every statement in an article I think a single template per article can bring something different to the table. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::[[Template:old]] is the same functionality but with a box. Is this what you need, or did you have something else in mind? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::Much closer, I think a box for an article (maybe shifted to the top-right) is necessary for this, in order to provide the benefit of information for the user. A difference is I'd like this box to be on every article so that not only are articles labeled as out of date, but also as up to date. Most importantly I'm more about discussing the conceptual idea of this kind of organization, then we can devise an appropriate implementation. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::From what I've seen so far, it looks like what you want is a trivial step away from the things already in place. Is putting the box in the top right corner and putting one on every article the only difference? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh I'm not saying it's a fundemental change, but it's implementation will allow for the large project of updating after this big update of DF. There are some details I think should be part of this change:<br />
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:::*A box on every article stating if the article is up to date or not. If it's not, also stating up to what version it is up to date.<br />
:::*A categorization scheme that follows like so:<br />
:::**If it's up to date, put in two categories: something like "up to date", and something like "version ______"<br />
:::**If it's not up to date, put it in two categories: something like "obsolete", and something like "version _____"<br />
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:::Each page should be able to just list the version it's updated as of, the template should determine whether "<nowiki>{{Version|40d}}</nowiki>" should end up in category "up to date" or category "obsolete". This should be done in such a way that when a new version comes out we can make a small change to the template and EVERY article will become "obsolete" and users can over time go through them and confirm that they are still up-to-date by changing the template to refer to the new version. ''I think this is the major aspect I'm proposing that isn't a trivial difference from the current method of organization and upkeep here''. Do you get what I'm suggesting? If I thought it was a trival difference I would have just implemented it and asked what people thought, but this could be a very big deal if we go through with it. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::Take a look at [[template:vcat]]. This is the template currently placed on all of the version category pages. It compares the version the category corresponds to with [[template:current/version]] and displays a message based on whether or not it matches. Is this the type of thing you want? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::This is certainly a useful feature already in place that would likely go on the categories that will be created, or it might just stay as is but the version template will change slightly. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:Perhaps use "New", "Old", and "Obsolete" markers? DF2010 is "New", 40d is "Old", and pre-40d is "Obsolete"? I like the idea of a small box up in the corner, and a category to group them. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 23:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::I would want to make sure we don't get out of hand; new uses will be likely to ignore anything marked "Old" even if it continues to be accurate (nobody had verified it). Perhaps something like "This page is X releases old; some information may be changed" or something. Most releases don't change more than a few major areas (DF2010 is an exception because of the length of release, but even it won't be changing everything). I do think that something like this is VERY important for "tutorial" sections; a single key change could stymie a new user; and we'd lose them forever. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 00:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Well of course and that's a detail on the text in the template. There are multiple goals to accomplish and realistically I don't think it would take long on a minor to average version to go through and just check each article to make sure it's up to date. There are a lot but it's not too much, and there a lot of active editors on here who if given a straightforward task of article version checking would be able to accomplish it in the early days of a new version release I'm sure. I also think the New/Old(Current)/Obsolete(Old) is a great addition. That way we can do the transition of New to Current for DF2010 after we've done a lot of the work. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:The problem with "updating" all the old version's pages is that is based on the premise that a page, as a whole, can both be "updated" and then accurately labeled as such. It can't, not either. Pieces will be updated, subsections, or single elements of subsections, but even then only as accurate as that last editor understood the changes. Think about the changes that the Wound/Healing system will undergo, or Materials/Values, or Weapons/Armor, and all the directly associated pages and concepts, and references and paraphrasing in other articles - could be massive and subtle at the same time. When does a label get changed? If each User only edits a bit at a time (and few of us rewrite entire pages!), how do we know we've filtered out'' all'' the legacy information? I ''do'' like the idea of beginning new version labels for each version's article on the same subject - altho' that would almost ''require'' different sites to allow for identical article names. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::I don't disagree with your opinion on bit-by-bit changes, it makes sense. I think your below idea might be the way to go, with articles of the new version labeled with a suffix (DF2010) linking back to the "old" version, which links forward to the 2010 version. A new site is definitely not needed and would cause a huge amount of problems imo. I think a simple template on every article (like I described) pointing to a 2010 version can be done by a handful of people with a little time. Then the 2010 version can start with just that template (which will automatically point backwards). This will include the separate page like you suggested, but would still accomplish the goals I had hoped to accomplish. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::<nods> Those "goals" being:<br />
:::* Allow users to know an article is up to date<br />
:::* If an article isn't up to date, allow a user to know exactly how out of date it currently is.<br />
:::* Allow editors to easily find articles which are out of date and improve them. <br />
:::It seems no article can ever be confirmed as 100% up to date - new observations and insights make this a very dynamic and wiki-appropriate process. But if we can ''start'' every 2010 article (and every version in the future!) with currently accurate info, even if that's only a fraction of what we "knew" for d40, that's as big a step as we can take in the right direction.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My vision ==<br />
<br />
(For what it's worth). I mentioned a desire to look into the possibility of doing this on my Admin application, in the Q&A process. When I first joined the DF community, we had just(?) undergone a version shift, and the pages here and users on the [[Forums]] here were rife with misinformation and contradictory understandings of the game. Newbies would look in the wiki and find ancient history mixed side-by-side with recent edits, some stuff that went back to the 2-D version, and that would be presented as gospel and no one knew any different. The ''very'' recent revelation that workshops do NOT make [[noise]] in d40 is a perfect example. I'd ''love'' to see this version change-over done differently.<br />
<br />
What I had envisioned was a category template, something bold and unmistakable like [[mod]] or [[delete]], that marked a page (or every major subsection?) as "OLD VERSION : d40" (or whatever). (This would also create a category page where all those could be scanned at a glance.) Those pages would '''not''' be edited for DF2010 - to do that would invite a piecemeal disaster that would spiral into the same jumbled quagmire ''(or probably worse!)'' that I first stepped into. As a User wants to address a topic, a new page is started - if that is ''identical'' to the prev info ([[dwarf]], perhaps, etc), then it's mostly just copy/paste - but if not, then it gets edited and updated on the new page. If only part of it can be verified, then only part of that older page makes the transition at that time. Thus (in theory*) only material that has been confirmed as "DF2010 accurate" will make it to the "current" wiki, and the rest is clearly marked as legacy but stays intact as that.<br />
<br />
''(* I have no illusions that users will not find a way to screw this up at times. But it has to be better than opening a long legacy article that has already had a dozen editors shake it up - but it's unclear what has and what has not been addressed. [[Armor]], or [[skill]], for instance.)''<br />
<br />
The new pages would have a link to the old one(s), so users could see what if any old info is still applicable or unconfirmed, and/or what needs to be translated/updated and added, but the new page will grow the new article from the ground up, rather than pretend a dozen users could patch an accurate final product together from an inaccurate but similar one, one edit at a time.<br />
<br />
It's the difference between repairing a totaled car, and using only the good pieces to rebuild a new one.<br />
<br />
I'm not experienced enough in the wiki-code to know if or how the two "versions" would be kept distinct if we stayed on this site - many articles will certainly want the same Name, so... yeah. That's what I thought the new site/engine would be used for, not simply copy/pasting current articles and being right where we are now, right where we were with the last significant change, right where we don't want to be.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:IMO. Personally you would do this by copying every <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki> (say, [[Miner]]) to a new namespace. With redirects from main namespace to the version namespace.<br />
:So <nowiki>[[Miner]]</nowiki> would redirect to <nowiki>[[VerABC:Miner]]</nowiki>. With a simple Page Copy, editors could copy the whole page, and easily update it to DF2010.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]]<br />
::Um, what's the right word?... NO!!! That is ''exactly'' what I would NOT want to see happen! And sorry to shout, but that is so far off the mark it frightens me. That achieves nothing but two legacy sites. What I would prefer is that the new page is blank, and ''only'' information that has gone thru a user's confirmation process is added to that new article. Blind, bulk "copy/pasting" is not that. It's ''much'' easier to read over one section at a time and update that, than to try to weed out legacy information buried in an entire article that has been "mostly edited". For one, how does anyone know what has and has not been checked at least once? Yes, there will be constant updates - but the core information is then at least (in theory) info on 2010, not d40, and any clear d40 legacy material has already been filtered out. ("Healing and wounds" jumps immediately to mind as a collection of articles that would lead to a disastrous "rewrite" - but snipping bits and pieces, and adding that to the updated system - that gives us better accuracy for the end product.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
Something like this, [[Template:D40x]]:<br />
{{D40x}}<br />
<br />
:I like where you're going and I think this could fit nicely with the goals I had in mind when I wrote this. For each article we could have a box in it. Saying that this article was updated as of version 40d, for the new version click "here". Here will link to "''article name'' (DF2010)" or something similar. That article will have a box saying it was updated as of DF2010, and for the old version click "here", where here will link to "''article name''". This can easily be done via templates.<br />
:I understand your concern about updating articles bit-by-bit, and I see a lot of value in your suggestion. I think at SOME point though after the release of DF2010 we'll need to mass move articles so that the 2010 versions become the ''article name'' verions, and the ''article name'' versions become ''article name'' (40d), and the template placed can have a minor modification to continue functioning after a mass move.<br />
:Ultimately I think this will require more administrative work (move-over-redirect for example), and perhaps a larger set of work for editors, but it will more likely have a better end-product then a bit-by-bit change, which is really most important. Organization on something like this is key though, but I like your approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 11:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::And I value your experience with what's possible - that could totally work, linking each article to a main (or "best") article in the other version ("best" being relative, depending). And, yes, the "migration" between naming conventions could be a pain and will have to happen as we phase out d40 (another reason I was thinking 2 sites, but if we don't have to go there then that's better still). I completely re-edited some of the larger clusters left by the previous version changes - the whole Armor/Weapon series, and the various Defense Design/Fortress Design/Fortress Defense/Design a Fortress/Defend your Fortress/Siege Engine/Siege/Design a Defense/Design Theory/Design Theory pages - you get the idea. That was ugly and took weeks of planning and then editing, and the info was already mostly there and it was largely "one vision", so I could keep track of my own progress - we can't expect that with this shift. Many of ''groups'' of d40 article will need to be re-conceived 100% ''as well as'' have all new info, rearranged to better fit the 2010 game system and paradigm. "Squads" and "Burrows" will wreck havoc with the current Military and Design concepts, and Wounds/Doctors will most likely call for a new series of articles. It's not going to be a 1:1 translation, and we shouldn't plan on it being so.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::I get what you're saying about the changes being big enough that "blind copying" d40 info won't work to make accurate DF2010 articles. But I honestly think the use of a seperate name-space for (legacy) version specific information is a tidier way of "quarantining" it than '''Article (Version)'''. The "quarantining" process was more what I was getting at, than the process of getting "accurate DF2010" articles into main-space. <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 12:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::::I kind of like the namespaced articles idea. However, don't let what I think will / wont work override every other opinion. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 12:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: I think the namespace is a good option. My only worry is problems it could cause to things such as search, which the parenthetical notation wouldn't have those problems. On the other hand it isn't as easy to separate a page name and the version it applies to if the version is in parentheses, those I suspect the difference may be minimal especially with parser functions. One thing we don't want is to make navigation more difficult to users. If they type "weapons" they should arrive at the appropriate article automatically. Which either means that information has to be on the article [[Weapons]] (without namespace or parentheses) or the article [[Weapons]] has to redirect to the correct version. I think having [[DF2010:Weapons]] and [[40d:Weapons]] could certainly work, but then when there is a version change all of the articles like [[Weapons]] have to point to the new version. This isn't a big deal to me though, and is a necessary problem to overcome if we're going to have an article for each topic for each version. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::: I'll update the article page with what I think is the current consensus approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::A new namespace would be really good. If we have some large article X that effectively needs to be scrapped, we could move it to Legacy:X and put an appropriate label on it. Then lock it and put a link to it on the new X article. This has the added benefit of disabling all of the [[template:version]] (and maybe [[template:verify]]) tags, which only include pages in a category if they are in the main namespace. So they don't need to be found and removed manually. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Updated proposal ==<br />
<br />
I made some changes, hopefully they are clear. Thoughts? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I wonder if what we're doing here would be more suited for a release like DF2010 - a jump from 39d to 40d, say, wouldn't be that much and shouldn't make the whole wiki covered with orange boxes. Perhaps a smaller unverified note unless a manual "this change was major" button is hit somewhere. I like what is there currently, as articles would "rust" just like dwarven skills if not updated. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 04:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This was inspired by the DF2010 jump but the goal is to make sure the wiki stays up to date through all future releases. Though I agree that larger changes require a different approach then small changes. I'd suggest we worry about small changes when they come afterwords. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:My suggestion would be to use the "main" namespace (ie: no special prefix) for whatever version is current.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Well that seems obvious, and way simpler lol. The template could still work just as well that way, since the template will know what version is up to date, if it finds an article that is using it, it will know it's up to date if it's the main namespace article. This will mean that at some point in the near future we'll have to move all of the articles that are relevant to "40d:Article" then edit the redirect to begin the new page which will be about the article for DF2010. Thoughts on this? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::It ''seems'' simpler, but is it really, in the long run? (I'm not sure, but I'm just not convinced either way.) The difference is whether we have to update ''every'' "current" page every significant version upgrade. Won't be "every" time, but any time like this one. That, plus however much hassle and confusion having two (and more later!) parallel sets of articles creates. While that won't be often, it will be a LOT of pages to reconcile, recreating (and compounding?) the current situation with every major upgrade. I wish we could somehow create two independent "sites" (with or without a different domain name/etc), but linkable to each other, so that the new one is separate yet still easily self-referential within itself. A new page or internal-link either series is just a new page, [[metal]] or [[stone]], no need for a new template or qualifier to the obvious and appropriate article name. And any older series of articles don't muddy the water for navigation or a Search, they just become "the old site", similarly separate but nearby. If there was a way to mass-mark every page on a site, adding a template that refers users to the new "current version", so much the better. I don't know if anything like this is possible, or practical if it is, but it would be a good thing if it were, and solve both problems.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::: I really really don't think that scrapping the wiki and calling it old is useful. We destroy any and all redirecting capability, which is critical for new users. Our goal is to retain information about the old versions while creating information on the new versions as accurately and quickly as possible, and with as little trouble for readers as possible. Creating another wiki is not helpful for this for many reasons (watchlists/usernames not copying over as a couple examples). I don't think old articles in other namespaces will mess up search, as you can explicitly exclude different name spaces in your search. I think this is a fantastic feature, instead of a problem. Imagine being able to search for some topic only in 40d articles? Or only in "up to date" articles? Or both? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== DF2010 ==<br />
<br />
I just wanted to make sure nobody plans to keep calling the new version DF2010 after it gets released. It will have a real version number at that point. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:Lotsa luck on that one. My guess is it'll be a redirect, as so many "fan contributions" to this culture. Meanwhile, since we have no hard count on the version changes (which equate to the ver number), this will continue to ingrain itself in our consciousness.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 03:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:<small> *using small text to fake hide my pride* - I coined the name "DF 2010" when I made the wiki article :D [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup></small> <br />
:The 2D version is very commonly referred to as such, so I wouldn't be surprised if it continues to be well known as DF2010. That being said I agree that if we go with the namespaces, we aren't going to use DF2010 unless that phrasing actually existing IN the game. Regardless though our job is to help people find what they're looking for and that should be the #1 concern. If people will search for something using DF2010 or similar we should make that easy as possible. But the name of articles is unimportant as long as the possible names redirect to the actual article, that's my only concern. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Consensus? ==<br />
<br />
I went through and read everyone's comments on this talk, and tried to summarize everyone's viewpoints. It looks like we have a general consensus for this idea:<br />
<br />
*Move version-dependent (almost all) articles to "40d:X"<br />
*Page "X" [this means the "main" namespace] contain DF2010 information only (no Copy/Paste), links to "40d:X"<br />
*'''Current Version''' namespace is intended to be a staging namespace for us editors. <br />
*Make references to "DF2010" able to be changed easily.<br />
<br />
I figure we can just do a straw poll to decide if this is a good idea (as a whole). In your comment if you could specify when you think this kind of thing should be done (after we set up templates/categories), that'd be useful [either "ASAP", "some date", or "after DF2010" release].<br />
<br />
*'''Support''' - ASAP [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 23:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - ASAP, and I've set up the required namespaces for this project. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 00:33, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''', except the for the name of the namespace. I think "legacy" has a much better ring to it than "40d". Also, this won't be the last time we want to move outdated info somewhere. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 01:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
*:I think it would be great to keep all our outdated information for those who want to play legacy versions of the game. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 01:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Strongly support that last sentiment, at least for the now...<br />
:...Also, I'll suggest that less than 36 hrs over a weekend (if at any time) is perhaps NOT adequate time to poll for a "consensus", at least not for something of this magnitude. I had something to say about this, something that might have made a diff, but... it's completely moot now, ''i'n'it?'' Next time, maybe either wait just ''a bit'' longer before taking executive action, or simply don't pretend input matters, pls - it's disheartening, among other things.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:Seconded what Albedo said.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' altho' it's a bit late. Vengeful, while I agree about '''legacy:''' vs '''40d:''' - what do we use next version? Mass move all '''legacy:''' to '''40d:''' so we can move '''main:''' to '''legacy:'''?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:GarrieIrons&diff=68608User talk:GarrieIrons2010-03-08T09:18:25Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* editing */</p>
<hr />
<div>This is my talk page. You might like to email me instead, I will probably check that more often. --[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 03:04, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
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--[[User:Savok|Savok]] 12:59, 5 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Stone ==<br />
<br />
Could you explain why you a removing [[:category:stone]] from things which are clearly stones? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 10:51, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
:Ah, I see how you want to set it up. However, I think we should consider alternative ways to set up the subcategories. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 10:54, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
::Hi Vengeful (thought better not use the initials ?). As you seem to have worked out - [[:Category:Ore]] etc are subcats of [[:Category:Stone]], so articles don't need to be members of both - especially when there are great [[stone|list articles]] about the place, which I am more than happy to contribute to.<br />
::I'd rather be bold than wait for others to agree, but I won't object if someone reverts it because it's too logical but not common sense.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:36, 12 February 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Here's the problem as I see it with stones in general. Each of them falls under several types of subcats (with different kinds of relationships). All ores are economic stones. Some, but not all, economic stones are in sedimentary layers. Maybe there should even be a category for layer-type stones, which would also intersect (but not contain nor be contained by) economic stones. While I like the idea of partitioning the stone category, I would only want to do it if an elegant way is found. These are the possible categories a stone can fall under and their relationships:<br />
<br />
:::{| border=1<br />
!- x!!Economic!!Non-Economic!!Ore!!Layer-type!!Sed!!Ig.Extr.!!Ig.Intr.!!Metamorphic!!Generic<br />
|-<br />
!Economic||x||Mut.Exclusive||Contains||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Mut.Exclusive<br />
|-<br />
!Non-Economic||Mut.Exclusive||x||Mut.Exclusive||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Contains<br />
|-<br />
!Ore||Subset||Mut.Exclusive||x||Mut.Exclusive||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Mut.Exclusive<br />
|-<br />
!Layer-type||Intersects||Intersects||Mut.Exclusive||x||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Mut.Exclusive<br />
|-<br />
!Sed||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects<br />
|-<br />
!Ig.Extr.||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects<br />
|-<br />
!Ig.Intr.||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x||Intersects||Intersects<br />
|-<br />
!Metamorphic||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x||Intersects<br />
|-<br />
!Generic||Mut.Exclusive||Subset||Mut.Exclusive||Mut.Exclusive||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||Intersects||x<br />
|}<br />
<br />
::The fact that economic and non-economic stones are mutually exclusive makes it tempting to partition them that way, but there are other possible arrangements with the same qualifications &mdash; I don't think any of them are very appealing. The reason I made the big lump in the first place was because of this very problem. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:27, 12 February 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Although the ores do have an economic purpose - in-game they are seperate classes at least per the stockpile menu. I think as much as possible, the groupings in-game are the best ones to use because after all this is a wiki about a single game universe. The layers etc are observed characteristics of that universe but they are not immediately noticable and less likely search criterion for gamers seeking info (once you know the other mechanics chances are you know which ones are stones vs gems).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 04:03, 12 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::What do you propose to do with the ores? The in-game grouping isn't consistent for them. In the stockpile settings they are seperate from economic, while in the stone selection screen they are included. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 01:38, 13 February 2008 (EST)<br />
:::OK I see what you're saying. The game itself uses inconsistant language: on the {{key|z}} stone menu, economic stone = stockpile economic stone + stockpile ore. My preferred grouping is the stockpile one as it is the one that seems most visible to players - although I do agree there are times when I am constantly going back in to turn the dominant limestone/dolomite/chalk on and off in the {{key|z}} stone menu.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 02:19, 13 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Rule N ==<br />
<br />
As I read it, Rule N applies specifically and only to Page titles themselves, not section headings or other headlines.<br />
Your edit to Crafting is of the latter, rather than former.<br />
I couldn't see a particular reason for having the older version over the one you did, so I didn't revert. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 21:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Posted reply on my talk RE: Bins in stockpiles -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 00:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:more reply -[[User:N9103|Edward]]<br />
<br />
<br />
[[User_talk:Albedo#links_vs_links]] - Heya! See response, my page.<br />
<br />
== new sig: testing ==<br />
<br />
[[User:GarrieIrons|&lt;font face=&quot;FixedSys&quot; color=&quot;#00FFFF&quot;&gt;&#91;&#91;User:GarrieIrons&#124;Gar&#93;&#93;&lt;/font&gt;&#91;&#91;User Talk:GarrieIrons&#124;rie&#93;&#93;]] 14:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
:crap. [[User:GarrieIrons|&#91;&#91;User:GarrieIrons&#124;Gar&#93;&#93;&#91;&#91;User Talk:GarrieIrons&#124;rie&#93;&#93;]] 14:38, 13 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
::raw sigs.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 14:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Food guide ==<br />
So what was your idea when resorting [[Food guide]]? Before it was sorted for usefulness/return and easiness, as it is for new players. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 12:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
:It's now sorted - for new players - in order of easiest to get going to hardest:<br />
1 Gathering <br />
2 Fishing <br />
3 Hunting <br />
4 Farming <br />
5 Livestock <br />
6 Trapping <br />
7 Trading <br />
8 Related: Cooking<br />
<br />
:I suggest that is the order that you will at least achieve subsistance when you first start playing DF. Once you know what you are doing you start trading for everything and work your community as a high tech tertiary industry enterprise, making everything out of glass, buying raw food and turning it into high quality cooked meals / booze at kitchens & stills located right next to the trade depot. But to start playing it's easiest to have say 1 farmer/herbalist/cook/brewer, 1 hunter, 1 butcher/tanner/bone-worker/leather-worker.<br />
<br />
:Having said all of the above, to date I pretty much don't raise livestock I hunt &/or trade for meat/leather. Animals wandering around is too haphazard. I farm for plants --> booze. I don't think I '''ever''' got fishing to be a real enterprise, but that might be to do with my maps (never tried seaside / rivers).<br />
<br />
:If you are going to do so many edits - could you please use meaningful edit summaries more often? 22 edits to 1 article with edits such as this one http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php?title=Food_guide&diff=41280585&oldid=41280577 which show you don't get that there is an upper cap to the number of seeds you can have, 1 seed can produce a stack of up to 10 or so plants... at some point it is good to tell new players "when you have more plump helmet spawn than you have space on your farm to plant them, start cooking it". A high quality meal cooked with plump helmet spawn is usually worth more than the bag of plump helmet spawn (plus you don't give away any bags).<br />
:<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 13:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Au contraire - seeds max out at 200 and from then on all seed related jobs work like a charm, cos no more seeds are produced when processing. The clutter and baghogging seeds used to make is gone anyway in 40d. my 2000+ seeds of 11 types use up 4 barrels and 33 bags and this could even be optimized, since some of them are bought seed bags with only 20 seeds in them (plus seed meals are crap, bad for eating, they use up barrels (max size 4), and trading them is a pain). I prefer to trade seeds away if I ever get some i don't want (who would mill hide root anyway??).<br />
<br />
::Now for the sorting logic: fishing and hunting are always dangerous (animals, carp, goblins), especially at start, so is gathering. Farming, no soil aside, is actually easy to get going, more importantly its safe and guaranteed, as is trading. Of course all of this is opinion and as long as the single sources are described properly I don't mind really.--[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 15:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::Hunting is dangerous, but relatively speaking it pays off. After all, dwarves are nothing if not renewable resources!<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 08:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions]] ==<br />
Based on your comments and input on the administration requests pages I thought you might be interested in this kind of discussion. Please bring in your comments on this page and on it's talk page and let everyone know what you think. Thanks! [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] 20:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:Could you drop by and comment on "consensus" again? [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions#Consensus.3F] [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== editing ==<br />
<br />
Thing is I don't know enough to make such a section. I've never found any let alone done it <br />
enough times to know the difference between the few times I'd achieved such a thing and what <br />
has to happen all the time.<br />
Really? You seem to have a good eye - Meh, only one way to figure it out - open a page and have a look! Copy/paste some code of an article that has an interesting (or basic) format style, a "look" you want to master, and play with it on your User page, just using "preview". The main tricks are how many "equals signs" ( <nowiki>= =</nowiki> ) surround the subsection name ''(1-4, with 1 being the largest, 4 being the smallest, and 2 the default for a subsection)'', the use of " <nowiki>__TOC__</nowiki> " to force a Table Of Contents where you want it ''(note there are TWO _'s on each side of that!)'', and an advanced trick, the use of templates, anything in double brackets, " <nowiki>{{ blah blah }}</nowiki> ". Templates call up a pre-determined "style" from another page, and often let you fill in the blank. The "spoiler warning", "mod warning", "D for Dwarf" and "{{k|k}}eyboard key" are all templates. Other than that, just hit the editing buttons at the top of the screen, and you've got 90% of everything you could want!--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 11:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::Sorry, I meant my DF-fu not my wiki-fu... it's the "subject" I lack knowledge in not the "how to wikify the subject". Clear as mud? <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d_Talk:Activity_zone&diff=6475540d Talk:Activity zone2010-03-07T10:14:30Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Effect of temperature */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>==Undumpable: belongings of dead dwarves==<br />
Has anyone else noticed that when a dwarf dies and leaves behind all his items on the floor of your fortress, you can designate them for dumping but the dwarves never come and dump them? Is there any way to get rid of these? I also noticed dwarves never seem to dump damaged items (items that have an x in their name). ----[[User:Hyperbox|Hyperbox]] 04:29, 21 August 2008 (EST)<br />
:I don't think dwarves will dump items with ownership flags, so that's why your dwarves never seem to dump damaged items. I think they need to replace them first. In the case of death, though, my experience has been that the items get de-owned on death and the other dwarves come strip the body. If you do {{k|o}}rders & choose {{k|F}}orbid, there are some settings about whether items are forbidden upon death, but I think they default to mostly-permissive, so unless your settings got changed that shouldn't be affecting you, either. --[[User:Sev|Sev]] 03:41, 27 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
::I'm thinking that the [[dwarven economy]] might throw another yet wrench into this system. Since my economy started, my dwarves have refused to dump ''any'' clothing items, including narrow clothing. I'm wondering whether it's because dwarves won't dump anything they might be able to sell. Bless their capitalist little hearts, but it's extremely frustrating. --[[User:Ookpik|Ookpik]] 21:42, 13 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::I have had no trouble dumping narrow clothing after the economy kicks in -- as long as the clothing isn't already in a shop. Once they've hauled it to the shop, it behaves as if it were "owned". --[[User:Sev|Sev]] 19:55, 12 December 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
I just want to confirm that items, particularly worn out socks and shoes, can't be dumped. So if your dwarf decides he wants a new pair and leaves his old shoes or socks lying on the ground, you are screwed.--[[User:Jpwrunyan|Jpwrunyan]] 10:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
:You can, however, hide them via {{k|k}}-{{k|h}} or {{k|d}}-{{k|b}}-{{k|h}}. They still exist, but at least you won't have to look at them.<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 04:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Proposed move==<br />
should this page be moved to the singluar title "Activity zone" ?<br />
(unsigned/unknown [[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 07:59, 4 July 2008 (EDT))<br />
<br />
==Force drinking location==<br />
Any advice how to get dwarves really drink where I want them?<br />
I have one space water supply zone at the end of channel so the zone is above the floodgate) and then I have another 12 space zone around a little pond.. still all the dwarves run all the way to the brook for drink. (..yea yea, I know, I need booze. sorry for beeing slow)<br />
--Shiona<br />
:under the orders menu, along with the only farmers harvest and refuse type orders, there is an option for zones, under that submenu you can say 'prefer to drink/fish at zone' 'only drink/fish at zone' which might be what you need. Also make sure you are setting the zones to a type and not just designating them. --[[User:Shades|Shades]] 05:27, 6 November 2007 (EST)<br />
::I've got the same problem. I've zoned a large water source over my brook and I've set zone only drinking under my options, yet my dwarves still go up or down river, sometimes great distances, to drink. It's a really big problem since I'm in a really savage biome. I've tried de- and rezoning the water source and switching on and off the zone permissions. Bug? Or are my dwarves just stupider than most? --RampagingFrodo 01:49 EDT, 23 Jan 2009<br />
<br />
==Vertigo when filling ponds?==<br />
This is not really related to zones, but I have a pond my dwarves are filling, which is three levels deep. They seem to be suffering from extreme vertigo; they keep filling a bucket, dumping it in, and then staggering away stunned and nauseous. There's vomit ''all over'' my pond now.<br />
- [[User:Clockwork|Clockwork]] 19:20, 18 November 2007 (EST)<br />
:That sounds like cave adjustment to me. When's the last time they've been outside before that problem arose? If dwarves spend too long underground, they'll get accustomed to it, to the point that being hit by sunlight again will give them the exact symptoms you just described. The pond has nothing to do with it, aside from the fact that they're outside while filling it. --[[User:Hesitris|Hesitris]] 22:42, 18 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Inappropriate building?==<br />
I have designated a pond inside my fort in an attempt to get some floors muddy for farming. However, I keep getting the message: so and so cancels Fill Pond: Inappropriate building. Any hints as to what I am doing wrong?<br />
- [[User:Ehertlein|Ehertlein]] 07:03, 18 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: IIRC Dwarves will only pour water into a pit; ie. an empty space. If you want to make a floor muddy, you need to mark a pond on the z-level above it. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 14:41, 18 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Garbage dump ==<br />
The following sentence is self contradicting. "Each ground tile within that zone is considered a garbage dump tile; thus, if you want to place a single-tile zone, place the zone onto a ground tile (optionally adjacent to a cliff or pit), not onto an open space." It needs correcting, one way or the other. --[[User:Aykavil|Aykavil]] 04:49, 17 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Wiki style question==<br />
while reading articles in this wiki, i sometimes see keyboard keys described as being "pushed" (for example, under Construction in [[Well]]), sometimes as being "used" (link) and sometimes just Shortcut {{k|w}} (for example, [[Dump]]). can i use any of these in articles that i wish to add to the wiki? -[[User:Anachron|Anachron]]<br />
:There is a lack of consistency. Fix it all! or adopt the (non)standard that already exists... the real answer is see the [[rule]]s. If it's not covered and you think it should be.... work out where it should go![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 07:59, 4 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Animal pits==<br />
Is this how I am meant to keep all my herd animals in the same place (I'd prefer not to cage them, I don't know why...)? Are they gonna get hurt when I drop them down a z-level?[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 07:59, 4 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Now I think I have an issue that...<br />
::I have a passage leading to a channel. The channel and one floor tile before it are my pit zones.<br />
::Below that is a room with a s-bend corridor with several doors marked "Passable" (ie not passable to pets).<br />
:It seems that my dwarves want to drop an animal into the pit. Then go downstairs, pick it up, and do it again.<br />
:I am confused![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 09:04, 4 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
===After a night of sleep===<br />
Alright. I now have an animal pit activity zone. Below it is a room with an S-bend corridor with three doors marked '''Passable''' (for dwarves only).<br />
There are "several" animals in the pit.<br />
My question: When I {{k|i}} on the zone, then {{k|P}}, does it show me the animals who have already been put in the pit or not? I would have thought it would be like a cage, showing all animals but putting a special character next to the ones already in the pit.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 21:01, 4 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Unfortunately there is no way to tell if an animal has been placed in a pit. So when you assign animals to a pit, it is a one-shot thing only - a dwarf will pit the animal, then there will be no indication that the animal is there the next time you look at the list. It would be nice if we could designate areas as pits, where the areas would act as 'stockpiles' or 'cages' that track which animals are in them.[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 04:46, 30 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Deadly Animal Pits==<br />
I'm surprised I'm not seeing anyone talking about this, but when I saw that you could put animals in pits the first thing I thought about was filling it with snakes, lions, maybe a dragon or two, and having that be what the unlucky goblins who fall into when the get dropped down from your drawbridge trap. --[[User:DimensionWarped|DimensionWarped]] 20:31, 22 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
*Adding onto that... how about making ponds and filling them with your own fish to start some kind of fish pond or something? --[[User:DimensionWarped|DimensionWarped]] 20:32, 22 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Yeah, that makes sense! I always thought that was what ponds were for, before I figured out you could do other things with them, too. I'd be careful with the dragon pits, though. Even tame ones are very indiscriminate when breathing fire on their foes. (Currently I'm using a race that I gave dragonfirebreath. First thing that happened when zombies attacked was they lit up the zombies, the wagon and all the supplies, and the clothes their friends were wearing. I changed the race's ignite point after that.) --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 20:38, 22 November 2008 (EST)<br />
==Nobles filling ponds==<br />
<br />
Anybody else notice that nobles fill ponds? They ''are'' useful for something after all! --[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 02:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Odd pond filling techniques==<br />
Why is it when my little dudes try filling my pond, they leave the bucket at edge of my pond? Am I seeing this incorrectly, or when they fill a pond, they get water, bring it over to the pond, pour the water in, and leave the bucket. I don't understand how this fills the pond, or if you need multiple buckets, or if I'm doing something wrong. --[[User:ZombieRoboNinja|ZombieRoboNinja]] 16:09, 2 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:They dumped the water out of the bucket into the pond (assuming there was a channel to dump into) and then left the bucket for the next filler to use. It can be very difficult to fill any sizable space (>2x2) with buckets alone, due to evaporation. Your best bet is to have multiple pond zones (each one will generate a separate filling job,) 2 buckets per zone, and turning off any bucket accepting stockpiles, in addition to making sure the nearest water source isn't a long trip. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 22:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Oh, I see. I figured if the dwarves didn't have anything better to do, they'd just keep the buckets with them and do the job over and over again. They drop the bucket when they're done? That's kinda ridiculous. Anyway, that's for the info. --[[User:ZombieRoboNinja|ZombieRoboNinja]] 16:10, 2 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Undumpable: Fallen dump-marked stone==<br />
I had a bunch of stone I marked for dumping via {{k|d}}-{{k|b}}-{{k|d}}. Then, before dwarfs could take it away, my miners channeled the ground out from under the stone, causing it all to fall to the level below. Now, no matter how I unmark/remark the stone, they refuse to dump any of the stone that fell while marked for dumping. I can mark off other areas of stone; a dozen dwarfs happily swarm the area and take it away. But any of the stone that fell a level while marked for dumping are completely ignored. Bug? --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 23:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Note that the dwarfs have physical access to the stone. I didn't just dig a pit without stairs/ramps; there are no stairs/ramps, but I was digging out the stone and floor above my trade depot and main hall, so the dwarfs do have access to the area where the "untouchable" stone is. I tested to see if adding stairs suddenly made the stone accessible; it did not. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 03:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Figured it out; not a bug. Stupidly, I forgot my purpose in digging and channeling out the area was to make the room below OUTDOORS. And the default option is for dwarfs to not collect refuse from outdoors. As soon as I enabled that option, the dwarfs started dumping the stone. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 20:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Interrupted while adding to (goblin) pit ==<br />
<br />
I want to dump all my gobbos into the same 2x2 pit. but my dwarves lead a gobbo over to it, see the gobbos already in there, and cancel the job... I'm suprised they don't let go of the gobbo they are leading in fright.<br />
<br />
The down-side is, I now have dwarves wandering around holding onto goblins... which can't be a good thing can it?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 04:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Proper area ==<br />
For some odd reason, all of my pets run back and forth from their masters/parents to the meeting area (Any type) and then back. Repeat. Its very annoying because my Military dwarves that have war dogs assigned to them have the dogs running back and forth which cuts down on power, and eats up my CPU. I know that I can just not have a meeting area, but I want them to get happy thoughts from talking near my Adamantine statue! Does anybody know a way around this?--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 00:08, 1 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
*Is your adamantine statue not declared as a statue garden? That counts as a meeting area and your dwarfs will congregate there. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 00:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: I disabled it because of all the traffic the pets made, but any area where the dwarfs gather (Except their bedrooms) the pets will also gather.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 01:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Effect of temperature ==<br />
<br />
While embarking in a tundra, I set my meeting zone inside my first storage area and it is noted as being "cold".<br />
Does this have any effect?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d_Talk:Adamantine&diff=6475340d Talk:Adamantine2010-03-07T09:01:15Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Spoiler warning */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>Has anyone found any yet?<br />
<br />
:I've heard so, yes. I forget which talk page it was on.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 22:52, 1 November 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::It isn't anywhere on the wiki, if a search for "adamantine" would show it. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 22:54, 1 November 2007 (EDT)<br />
::Cancel that. You can't find it by searching for "adamantine" but "addy" gave me [http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=000793&p=3 this forum thread]. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 22:56, 1 November 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Where to find it ==<br />
<br />
http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001176<br />
<br />
In the above thread, Toady mentions the pits (and therefore adamantium) are located on every map tile which is displayed as a mountain. He then notes that it might only place them on mountain squares in the local map as well, but that he wasn't sure. So, that detail needs verification. Also, from testing out about a dozen volcano tiles (using reveal.exe) I found adamantine and the pits on every one. So, I've assumed that volcano tiles count as mountains for pit placement. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 22:58, 5 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
This seems to be generally true, but not absolutely true. I found a volcano in a desert on a completely flat map, and there was no adamant. Perhaps there is a depth requirement. --[[User:Qalnor|Qalnor]]<br />
<br />
:Was this on an actual volcano tile, or just an adjacent tile with a magma vent? --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 02:11, 19 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::It was on an actual volcano tile. I probably can find it this evening if you'd like me to snag the seed so you can see for yourself. --[[User:Qalnor|Qalnor]] 15:36, 19 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
IS there any information on depth in relation to finding deposits, or is it random? --[[User:Loganis|Loganis]] 13:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
:There is ''always'' a number of randomizing factors involved in almost any DF function, and often many are inter-related. With this, it has a tag that is supposed to put it "deep" - however, with erosion, some players have found it easily visible in a chasm, or claimed to (rarely) find it exposed on the surface - put what weight you want in that. But, yes, it's usually(?) only found "deep"... ish... --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 17:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Would an advisable search pattern for Adamantine be from the bottom up then? --[[User:Loganis|Loganis]] 04:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::I, personally, would say "no", for because of two quirks re adamantine: 1, it has veins that flow in 3 dimensions, so it's quite possible to find traces of it in mid-levels. But more important... um... (how best to phrase this?...)... there are ancient warnings about delving too deep for adamantine. The shallower, the safer - we'll just leave it at that. From the bottom up might be too much [[fun]] all at once. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Old info ==<br />
<br />
I also ported over parts of the old adamantine info which seemed to still be correct for this version, and trimmed out the bits which no longer seemed to be true. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 22:58, 5 November 2007 (EST)<br />
:There now only seems to be one labor directly related to adamantine, and that is Strand Extraction. Presumably weaving, smelting to wafers, and forging with the wafers now use the relevant "normal" skills but perhaps with a penalty to speed. I have not yet found adamantine, so if anybody has succeeded in analyzing its use, please correct the information in the wiki! --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 00:56, 6 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Okay, since I've been playing around with adamatine in 33a and 33b for a little while now, I've edited the page a fair bit. In particular, I've eliminated the Old Info section, wrapping that into the main body where it's correct, and eliminating it where it's not. I further added notes about treating the ore as a stone, since the value is a little different (I've got an Adamantine Ashery due to the ore not being an economic stone in 33a). I mentioned the apparent relationship between discovering adamantine and the King arriving. I removed the "ver" tag and replaced it with normal text, since it was forcing the page into the "outdated info" category, and I think we're now accurate to 33b. The only thing we still need to check is whether magma version of shops are still needed to handle the processing. (A magma clothier's shop... hmmm). [[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 04:02, 19 November 2007 (EST)<br />
::Since apparently someone has verified that magma smelters are not needed to make wafers, can we take this to be a concession from Toady due to magma not being available in all mountain tiles that adamantine is? --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 11:38, 19 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Demon pit image ==<br />
<br />
I believe that's just a magma vent, which may or may not contain adamantine, though there's bound to be some somewhere in a mountain range. --[[User:Maximus|Maximus]], 20 November 2007<br />
<br />
:I moved the above comment from the edit summary[http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php?title=Adamantine&diff=10287&oldid=10117]. It is an example of where adamantine can be found, and where one person found it. I think it's useful on this article, so I'll put it back with a caption explaining it's an example. --[[User:Turgid Bolk|Turgid Bolk]] 13:23, 21 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Well, I'm not going to nix your edit, I'll leave that decision up to you or others. But I have to say I don't really see that image as being remotely useful without a lot more context than 'this is an example'. What exactly is it an example of? What information is actually being provided? I can't really see how the image generates anything except confusion because it happens to be a magma square. --[[User:Qalnor|Qalnor]] 17:09, 21 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::The image doesnt seem helpful as is. Perhaps with a world seed and a little more explanation [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 18:34, 21 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Unless a demon pit can always be found to the east of a magma tile, the image is misleading. The text in the Location section is more accurate, though it needs some more verifying and fleshing out.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 18:46, 21 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::All good points. I removed the image again. Maybe we can get a more helpful image at some point. --[[User:Turgid Bolk|Turgid Bolk]] 13:30, 23 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Standardized spelling ==<br />
<br />
I just want to point out, despite it being definitively spelled [[Adamantine]] consistently in Dwarf Fortress, people still will spell it "adamantium" or "adamantite," presumably due to previous experience with Marvel Comics or World of Warcraft, respectively. (At least those are the places where ''I've'' seen those alternative spellings.) --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 14:15, 23 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Strands and loom ==<br />
Are adamantine strands automatically processed at loom, if 'auto weave thread into cloth' option is on? I think, it's important to know. --[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:29, 16 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:They are not. There is anew Loom job, "a: Weave Metal Cloth" --[[User:Mitchy|Mitchy]] 00:11, 17 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Verification==<br />
Verify tag was questioning whether Adamantine appears more often on mountain tilesets than on others. Definately, in a ratio of 100:1 or more. Confirmed using the regional prospector.--[[User:Richards|Richards]] 01:23, 21 April 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Adamantine bolts ==<br />
<br />
In the article, it says that everything made out of adamantine uses 3 wafers in the place of one bar. This is usually correct, but in the case of making bolts, I'm pretty sure you just need one wafer to make a stack of 25 bolts. It might work for coins and other stacked things as well, I'm not sure. Can someone confirm this? --[[User:Obsidian|Obsidian]] 15:37, 4 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
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I'm doing alot of experiments with Adamantine, and yes, 1 wafer = a stack of 25 Bolts.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 02:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== merge? ==<br />
I was wondering, should this be merged with raw adamantine? they both have extremely similar facts, and there are little differences. I don't know how to do this, and I think that some people might object, so any thoughts on this, go here. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 21:29, 3 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Vote: '''No merge.''' The pages are seperate because [[Adamantine]] refers to the processed metal and [[Raw adamantine]] refers to the ore. It's basically the standard. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 22:09, 3 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== The ominous timer ==<br />
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...'''Too Deep'''. What, exactly, does it mean? I've heard it in some places, but this quote from Boatmurdered got me wondering for a while:<br />
In my knowledge the Too Deep timer starts if you mine somewhere between 10-99 adamantium /.../<br />
(Quote source: Guerilla Medic)<br />
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So, this ominous sounding thing, along with the mention (above) of mining adamantine resulting in an 'invariable game over' has gotten me quite curious.<br />
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Just what happens? What are the mechanics, how is it triggered, and most importantly--<br />
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''How does the game end?'' ~ [[User:Midna|Midna]] 22:14, 27 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:This is from the 2D version. (and it's incorrect, the timer is started based on a random roll that gets a higher chance the more Ad you've mined) Maybe we should have a page about the 2D version and all the major ways it's different from the current version. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 22:43, 27 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::I am aware of that; so is the magma river which I so dearly wish I was there to see. But I don't really want to use the 2D version because of all the bugs and everything.<br />
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::A few searches (using Google) said that the timer's purpose was to eventually lead to that final game over. So why's it gone and all? Shouldn't it be an option?<br />
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::And if Toady ever reads this, I think a whole lot of features from the 2D version should be brought back, hopefully in a toggleable manner (e.g. magma river--I want to pull a Boatmurdered, and a '''river of magma''' sounds pretty awesome in itself); I feel this would be great for the oldbies as well as midbies, and the newbies would eventually tromp on over and discover a few options that made the game more fun for them.<br />
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::Oh, and one last thing: Random, that's a great idea. I'd help, but I've never so much as downloaded the 2D version. ~ [[User:Midna|Midna]] 18:37, 28 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::Well, I'll help get it started, by describing the differences I remember. Some important changes came post-3D, too, but I stopped playing DF for most of 2008, so I didn't notice what changed when.<br />
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:::*Z-levels (the biggie). Among other things, channels were no impediment unless they were filled with fluid. There was no fluid "pressure"; fluids were infinite, and if a floodgate was destroyed or otherwise unclosable, the resulting flood could easily destroy your entire fort. Being infinite, it also had no "depth" (x/7).<br />
:::*The chasm would contain primarily antmen, ratmen, or batmen, and 5-15 of them would spontaneously crawl out of it on a fairly regular basis until you poured enough magma in there to "kill" the chasm. Frogmen, snakemen, or lizardmen would also show up spontaneously along the banks of the river (and also crawl out of wells), though much less often. The underground river would flood once each spring, summer, and fall (in the form of waves sweeping out up to 20 tiles from its banks), and the floods would tend to sweep dwarves into the river, who would almost always drown. Items swept into the river would permanently disappear.<br />
:::*Terrain layout -- previously there was just an "outside", with a river zig-zagging north to south (except in scorching/freezing climates), a nearly flat cliff face, and cave river, chasm, magma river and demon pits at fairly regular distances eastward from the cliff face, that were present in every fortress. Behind the pits, forming the eastern edge of the map, was an adamantine-lined impassable chasm (containing no creatures -- at least, none you ever saw). Oh, and the cave river was always lined with limestone and the magma river was always lined with obsidian. Gold, platinum, hematite, and coal could be found in any mountain, though always to the east of the chasm. Gem types were also tied to depth. There were no geographic-style stone layers, and there were only a handful of different types of stone, which were either "light" (limestone, moonstone, or marble), "dark" (obsidian, jet, or onyx), or just "stone". Limestone was the only usable flux, and coal was coal (no lignite or bituminous, and it always produced 2 bars from smelting).<br />
:::*Mining even a little bit of adamantine set into motion an eventual and unavoidable end-of-game ("Too deep"). Mining a lot of adamantine would cause it to happen at the start of the next season.<br />
:::*Starting location choices -- Previously there were only a few dozen fixed locations on each map you could choose, all with the same layout and size; the only thing that varied was biome (climate, creatures, trees, and shrubs), and each location had only one biome. (Accessibility by different civilizations also varied depending on starting location -- this is perhaps little changed in the current version.) Now you can start just about anywhere on the world map, with a variable-size fortress map, which can span several different adjacent biomes and terrains.<br />
:::*Cave-ins would happen pretty much automatically if you mined out a 7x7 area or larger without leaving an unmined natural column in place (or built a pillar).<br />
:::*Choice of starting goods was very limited. You couldn't bring an anvil (one would automatically be brought in the first summer by a metalsmith). Starting points were very tight... something like a quarter of what they are now.<br />
:::*Trader wagon access required an actual 3-wide road (not just a clear path) stretching from the western edge of the map to the depot (which had to be near the cliff face or inside the fort).<br />
:::*You couldn't build traps or farms outdoors. You could build bridges outdoors but not make them raisable/retractable.<br />
:::*You couldn't build/rebuild walls or any of the other [[constructions]].<br />
:::*Activity zones, including dumps, were introduced with the 3D version.<br />
:::*Sand was always available, from the banks of the indoor or outdoor river.<br />
:::*Machines (gears, pumps, windmills, etc.) did not exist. There was a "mill" workshop that had to be built on one of the rivers.<br />
:::*Nobles changed a lot. There used to be "guildmasters" corresponding to different professions (farming, mining, masonry, etc.). The manager was your first noble, who arrived after hitting 20 dwarves. There was no "trader" noble or trade skills; you could trade at any point after the caravan fully unloaded. You couldn't do workshop profiles until the manager arrived and couldn't use the stocks screen until the bookkeeper arrived, which would start the [[dwarven economy]]. The mayor, manager, trade minister, and treasurer were all different, full-time nobles, and the baron/count/duke (and their consorts) were all separate as well. Add to this the guildmasters and "Order of the <weapon>" nobles and you could easily have 30 nobles in your fort.<br />
:::*Dwarves who created artifacts would carry those artifacts non-stop for the next several years.<br />
:::*Mining would leave behind stones or gems 50% of the time, regardless of miner skill. Ore would be left behind 100% of the time by legendary miners, less often for lower skill. All mining byproducts now follow the "ore" formula; up to 100% of the time, dependent on skill.<br />
:::*Encumbrance changed at some point (post-3D?). The Γ unit was made 1/10th its former weight, and much greater variation in material weights was introduced.<br />
:::*Custom stockpiles were introduced before the 3D version -- this was probably the most revolutionary change introduced during the 2D era. Well, no, fire was probably bigger... and so buggy when it was first introduced you were best off turning it off. I believe temperature was introduced at the same time, which was also pretty buggy.<br />
:::That's all I can remember for now.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 00:07, 29 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Based on the boatmurdered screenshots, it appears that discovery of the chasm/cave river depended on line-of-sight (i.e. the whole thing wouldn't appear all at once the moment you breached it) [[User:Random832|Random832]] 01:51, 29 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::That's correct.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 02:57, 29 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:I think artifacts no longer being held on to by dwarves who made them was post-3D, I remember reading an old post in a penny arcade forum on their 3D succession game. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 01:54, 29 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:It's very sad that I've learned most of what I know about this from Boatmurdered.<br />
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:So, wouldn't it be good, then, if things like the magma river (with the obsidian lining working as it does now) were brought back? Also, the floods would be great as a toggleable option (only) in my opinion; heck, have it depend upon where you've settled, too. Like a possible Nile setup, if the conditions are similar. So you'd have a '''predictable''' flood which'd make muddy soil and all, maybe fertilize it (if there's a difference, and if it does any good as of yet). A modified, toggleable cave-in system would be nice, too; I don't like how the tiles just support themselves. (You can build a huge pier leading straight into the ocean, then drop a building into it, or make an aquaduct in the same manner to make lava and water create obsidian to build into or whatever...underwater base, done.) Maybe as a 'new player' option.<br />
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:Also, could you explain ''exactly'' what the "'''Too Deep'''" timer did when it finished counting down? Was some kind of animation displayed, and if so, what did it show? Or what did it do to end the game? Etcetera... If it's just one screen, screenshots would be good too. ~ [[User:Midna|Midna]] 03:25, 29 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::This reminds me; daemons need a ''serious'' difficulty boost. Sure, they'll simply ''destroy'' the random new player who stumbles across them, but then again, so will [[carp]]. So I propose that somebody make the daemons absolute rape machines; the first (all-'round) daemon to spawn should be essentially ten times as strong as the daemons that spawn right afterwards or something to that effect. Spirits of fire could be given dragon-level breath, and all daemons would get super fire resistance.<br />
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::Among other things, such as [DAMBLOCK] boosts, more demons, etcetera. ~ [[User:Midna|Midna]] 18:02, 29 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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http://archive.dwarffortresswiki.net/images/3/3c/Adamantite_game_over.PNG<br />
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I remember Toady saying somewhere that he wanted to make cave-ins as much of a challenge as in the 2D versions, but there may be game-slowdown issues. In a recent dev_now he talked about making the chasm civilization more dynamic again (not just a bunch of monsters that are gone once killed).<br />
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Balancing the difficulty of the demons is hard, since you either know how to fight them and have a long time to prepare, or you don't, and you'll get massacred. But if you want Toady to hear any of these things, say them on the forums -- he doesn't hang around the wiki.<br />
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(Some) players did indeed use the river flooding for Nile-style farming in the 2D version.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:53, 29 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Interesting. Basically, though, what I'm trying to aim for is to make daemons like they were when one went Too Deep; but without a game-over screen. So you're probably going to be absolutely ''destroyed'', but you just ''might'' have a chance if you're extremely lucky.<br />
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:It'd make things easier if we had more elemental attacks; but that makes it start sounding like Pokemon after a while. But if we had, say, 'holy' weapons, then they could be made to be the only things that would do squat against daemons. Maybe the only holy weapons would be artifacts; in fact, that sounds like a great idea to me, because that means it's a lot harder to 'cheat' the system to get the weapons you'd need early.<br />
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:Also, wow, this talk section has gotten simply massive. Never thought such a large discussion would be sparked.... ~ [[User:Midna|Midna]] 21:59, 29 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::Those are some interesting ideas, though, again, Toady's the one that needs to hear them.<br>I've copied my 2D vs. 3D list into an actual article, and expanded its purpose: [[History of Dwarf Fortress]].--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 02:22, 30 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::: And what happened if, after the "Too deep" game over, you tried to explore the fortress in Adventurer mode ? [[User:Timst|Timst]] 04:38, 30 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::::You would find a single adjectiveless "Demon" in it, of slightly larger size than the pit demons. All raw adamantine left in the fort would supposedly turn into silver. I never tried it myself.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 13:35, 30 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::::: Oh wow. That sure was a nice, intriguing game over. [[User:Timst|Timst]] 18:29, 30 October 2008 (EDT)<br />
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==Adamantine Strand Stockpiling==<br />
So, Adamantine strands are apparently placed in cloth stockpiles, as claimed, but there doesn't seem to be any way to turn adamantine *off* for cloth stockpiles, as adamatine strands do not appear in the cloth stockpile item types options (your options under cloth are: thread(silk), thread(plant), cloth(silk), and cloth(plant)). Furthermore, all cloth apparently counts as non-plant/animal, because deselecting allow plant/animal in additional options doesn't prevent non-adamantine cloth/thread from being placed in the stockpile (and regular cloth is removed from stockpiles for which you deselect 'allow non-plant/animal'). Basically, there is no way to tell your cloth stockpiles to only accept adamantine strands, which contradicts elements of this and related pages. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 10:38, 25 November 2008 (EST)<br />
:As in the article, having a Stockpile set to take from all other cloth stockpiles, but set to accept no "known" types of cloth, works. Incidentally a dyer has just dyed some Adamantine strands blue with Dimple dye. --[[User:Jellyfishgreen|Jellyfishgreen]] 13:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
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==A Little Unclear==<br />
How many adamantium strands are produced from one raw adamantium? [[User:Bouchart|Bouchart]] 12:20, 17 January 2009 (EST)<br />
:One. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 15:04, 18 January 2009 (EST)<br />
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==Adamantine==<br />
Adamantine is used in several mythologies to bind some sort of great evil. This is relevant to our interests.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 01:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Adamantine at gobbo fortresses? ==<br />
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Wondering if it's possible or not. Any help on this would be great! [[User:Pariah|Pariah]] 03:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Adamantine to Goblets to Adamantine again? ==<br />
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Does this work in a way so as to yield 1 wafer from each goblet melted down? (For those not noticing the problem. That would mean 3 wafers for the cost of 1 wafer. Behold Dwarven magic!) [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 04:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Okay, actually, this shouldn't work, just took a quick read through of how melting works and figured out why not. I didn't think melting down items returned such a small amount for everything. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 04:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== adamantine wafers ==<br />
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i have found a huge outcropping of adamant. how do i make it into wafers? there is no option at the magma smelter. do i need a normal smelter? --<small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Sirmoocowthethird|Sirmoocowthethird]]</small><br />
:1. Please '''sign your comments''' (by adding <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki> afterwards). 2. You need to have a [[strand extractor]] convert the raw adamantine into adamantine strands, then you can smelt those strands into wafers. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 13:45, 15 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
1 sorry, im new at this. ill try 2 thank you.--[[User:Sirmoocowthethird|Sirmoocowthethird]] 00:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Spoiler warning ==<br />
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There is only one spoiler in this whole article and it is in the lead section. If you can see the spoiler warning you can see what it is warning you about.<br />
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Sureley this needs to be changed? Maybe put in a section for where it is found?<br />
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Thing is I don't know enough to make such a section. I've never found any let alone done it enough times to know the difference between the few times I'd achieved such a thing and what has to happen all the time.<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page/archive2&diff=64697Talk:Main Page/archive22010-03-06T06:15:08Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Images */</p>
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<div>{{Archive|<br />
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive1|Archive 1]]<br />
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== World Painter Page ==<br />
The wiki has needed a page on the [[World Painter]] for a while, so I've started one. The information in there is decent, but I'm relatively new to wiki editing, so the formatting probably isn't. If someone wouldn't mind cleaning it up a bit for me I'd really appreciate it. --[[User:Timmeh|Timmeh]] 01:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:Well I don't know if someone helped you already, but it looks fine to me. --[[User:frandude|frandude]]<br />
:I changed the name into World Painter so it looked better (no more petty redirects!) [[User:Inawarminister|Inawarminister]] 12:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== French language wiki ==<br />
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Can we have interlanguage links with the [http://www.dwarffortress.fr/wiki/ French wiki]? -[[User:Alan Trick|Alan Trick]] 17:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Add a CptnDuck page? ==<br />
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Captain Duck is a DF video tutorial maker, which an impressive collection of 40 videos on youtube (and a few extra videos of sieges and arenas and whatnot), and explains how to do most everything, from magma forges to Dwarven justice. He adds humor to it and he's the reason a lot of people understand the game...I think we should give him a page. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Blackdoggie998|Blackdoggie998]]</small><br />
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:As it is insanely easy for anyone to sign up for editing priviledges on this site (I managed to, after all), I see no need to make one for him when he could make one for himself. However, if you wish to add user:CptnDuck, or invite him to make one himself, feel free. He can link to all of his tutorials from his user page. They even be searchable through that lovely little box to the(my) left. (Who knows where it is on your skin.) -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.<br />
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:P.S. Does it seem odd to you to have it say "unsigned comment by [username]"? Or is that just me? -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, just a little after the previous one.<br />
:: Clicking 'unsigned' gave me all the explanation I need, might want to do the same [[User:Kinzarr|Kinzarr]] 23:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:We don't need a userpage for him, but a page with the assembled listing of all his (and others of equal quality) video tutorials wouldn't be a bad idea at all. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 16:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Articles on Olivine and other generic stones ==<br />
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There is a current discussion as to whether or not [[Olivine]] (and perhaps some few other stones) are duly covered on the current [[stone]] page, or are truly worth having their own article/page. This relates to a larger question of how this wiki is organized, and "What deserves a page" in a general sense. Any interested are encouraged to chime in, if only with a "me too" post pro or con. See [[Talk:Olivine]] for an idea of the issue. I'd like to have the debate move from the specific Olivine page to here since this is a more general issue that affects many potential pages. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 21:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:I'm not really sure which way to go on this one. A lot of otherwise useless stones would need their own articles if the guidelines were expanded... and yet, there's a good amount of useful information that's not on the main pages, that would further clutter them if it were added; And permitting more individual pages would solve both those problems. I guess this ends up being a vote both ways, with provisions on each. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 23:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:My vote is, if someone can make it amusing, then sure. If someone is of the bent to enjoy making such a page, then again, sure... otherwise, leave it at the bottom of the pile of "things that someday we might get around to if we feel like it" and don't stress. The relevant data is covered (or will be when someone notices it's not), and everything else is gravy. Beside, what would you rather do, play the game, or figure out how to make a whole page of jokes about how gneiss nice is.... (or did I get that backwards?)... ? --[[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.<br />
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::All relevant information is covered, yes. But not necessarily on a relevant page. Before the Olivine page was made you couldn't learn that olivine may contain native platinum from any page related to olivine or stone in general. <br />
::Another example is kaolinite. You can look it up in the table of Other Stone to see it can be found in sedimentary rock. But in order to see that it may itself contain alunite and marcasite you have to go through the entire table (or use the browser search function). Now, in order to see if it may contain anything else, you have to notice the note at the top of the page (just above the table of contents) that points to Metal Ore and Gem, whith another two tables you have to search through. (Kaolinite may contain turquoise). --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 21:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:It's not just about "which stones" - it's a larger question of how the wiki is organized and presented. Should each separate and distinct item get its own page, like the current one- or two-line articles on [[vial]]s, [[instrument]]s or [[Restraint|chain]]s, (just as random parallel examples of some [[finished goods]] that have their very own, very short, very dull, and predictably repetitive articles.) Surely the [[Masons guild]] and [[miners guild]] don't deserve or need separate articles. Do we need a separate and largely redundant article for every trap weapon? What about the cookie-cutter articles on ''every'' individual animal? The GCS deserves its own, and many others, but one on each separate type of shark and hunting cat? There is no actual article there, only a template.<br />
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:Quivers and bolts are sub-sections of the [[crossbow]] article, and I think that's a ''great'' call. Olivine, talc and kaolinite are merely similar examples, distinct enough to warrant special treatment, but on the borderline of being so small to each only represent a stub. Ultimately, I don't think a functional formal definition would be easily achieved - rather guidelines and a fuzzy target, combining related info into groups with optimal size limitations (both lower end and upper end). Perhaps a template should not be forced on every lesser example, but they could be grouped into a table on their own article, "other stones of note" or "sharks" or "finished goods" or whatever.<br />
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:In many ways, our only current guidelines are "what has been done so far" - and that varies widely and wildly. Too often, pages are cobbled onto related ones, or split off just because its a new topic, if a brutally short one. Myself, I'd like to see most related articles of less than 4 lines or so get grouped into larger, more universally informative articles, and anything larger than maybe 5 full sub-sections be considered for splitting up. If an item stands out from the rest, it should stand out somewhere, in an article - but that doesn't mean it has to have its very own, or invite every similar item to do so as well.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 03:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:: Please check out the (no longer) current [[Chalk]] page and tell me what you think. ... which is to say, it doesn't /have/ to be a stub, does it? It can be rich and detailed and sadly unamusing. It would please me to continue to do all stones in this manner, or another manner of your choosing.... Thus negating fussing over "this one was done this way, that one was done that way" arguments. I'll get to them all, in the order they appear on the [[Stones]] page. ... assuming you guys are ok with that. --[[User:Teres Draconis]] 08:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: P.S. Who's the outpost manager of this place, anyways? I'd like to know to whom I should be pandering. --jaz<br />
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::: I think 1) you should take time to read, if not learn the wiki format guidelines, 2) you should sign with your REAL user name, and stop using a pseudonym, and 3) you should not break someone else's post with yours in between their paragraphs. As to the chalk page, I think it's over-enthusiastic and pays no attention to previous article style or formatting precedent - which may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 09:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::: 1) You're right, I'm sorry. <br />
::::2) We've discussed user names on [[User_Talk:Teres_Draconis#Naming Conventions|my talks page]]. (Also, <nowiki>~~~</nowiki> still puts "jaz"... why bother with the link when it's just a P.S.?) <br />
::::3) I'm sorry. I was (apparently) trained wrong, and that was a /long/ time ago. I was taught (20 years ago) that when responding, to do so in-line, so that people can tell what the response is actually relating to. (Like an actual conversation, except with a time warp. You say something, I respond, someone else adds, we all move on to the next topic.) It supposedly adds clarity. The style and curtesy rules of such things has changed. I can see I'll need to update myself. Thank you for pointing that out. =)<br />
::::4) I was hasty. I had to have meatspace people explain to me why, as wiki-''writers'', you would not want so much detail on a page. Especially when, with every new game release, any given page on the wiki might need an over haul. I was only looking at it from the end-user perspective of "If I'm looking for information, I don't want a page that just tells me to go look at the three pages I've already looked at. I want a page that reduces the noise of the irrelevant, and distills to just that specific (sub-)topic." I /don't/ see the point of six pages that are identacle except for title, and all only three lines long. If it's got it's own page, it should have it's own page. If it just links back to the three pages that linked to it, and they all link to each other already, what's the point? If the only thing Chalk has going for it is that it's flux, why not just make a note on the [[Stone]] page reading, "These three rocks can be used as flux" and link to the flux page from there? Why should chalk have it's own page, if it's not going to be richly detailed and, you know, informative? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::::The templates are there because they are pretty, detailed, and condensed ways to display some key information. Rather than expanding existing information so that it takes up more space, it's more productive to add things that you think are lacking. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::: I changed the other [[Stones]] table to allow for interesting minerals that are in other[[Stones]] to be posted.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:What would actually be helpful is a [[Geology]] primer, indicating how layers and inclusions are placed, where, and what the implications of "You have struck XXX" are. I know, now, that if it's olivine, I have a chance of finding veins of native platinum. One good page explaining what all of the geological processes mean would be a lot more useful then all of the various descriptions of exploratory mining. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 22:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
::That sounds like a great idea.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::I agree! But I have no idea how to write it. Most of what I know about geology I learned from looking at the raws. Everything else is "OMG, is that a ''rock''?! I've heard of those!" - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::"More useful" to some, but I agree it would be a great addition. Also, the more I think about it, the more I like what MrDG did with the table in Other Stone - tables could condense any and all small, individual articles into single pages w/ (sortable?) tables where all these various similar objects could be compared/contrasted at a glance. Templates are perfect when there is a lot of various info, but if the different topics (semi-generic stones, animals, finished goods) all differ only in one or two details, and there is just not that many variables to begin with, a Table would be (imo) preferable. ''(And imo that table now covers such stones as Olivine well, to get back to the original example that sparked this discussion.)''<br />
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::As an additional example of how current stub-articles could be combined into a simple table, I've made this page - [[Example - some fish]] - which could be a model for such. (A page/table with all the "Sea-creatures" would be more likely approp, but this was faster for now.) It would replace every stub-article on related "generic" items, but any truly noteworthy items would still have their own full articles for expanded information and commentary (here, "carp"). It still has 100% of the prev information, but also allows immediate comparison and contrast, and, if sortable, allows a User to more easily compare relations between similar aspects (like "biome", in this example.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::: Is it possible to put the expandable version of the raw ("game object data (show)" seen at the bottom of the [[carp]] page) inside the table, instead of the whole thing? Or does the one preclude the other? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, if someone finds it easy to extract that information from the .RAWs, I would find that an improvement on what [[Creatures]] currently has. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 17:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::::If someone here knows PHP they may be able to write a new wiki hook that pulls information from raw entries. That would make many things much easier. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::Which information do you want extracted? I can probably do it for you, but you may have heard, I'm in the doghouse for not paying attention to style and formating rules. =/ Show me what there is, and one example of what you want, and I can probably do it for you with a minimum of stupid questions. ... ''Probably.'' - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::::@ jaz, Dec - Did either of you look at this sample table? [[Example - some fish]] Does that cover what you were envisioning? It's just a rough idea - but it could work the same way that the table on the [[stone]] page currently does, to cover all the generic, almost-identical objects. Same w/ finished goods, weapon traps, probably many other sim categories of like items.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
I've read this sort of. My view is, wikis add value to the game far more for noobs than they do to legends who have been around since when the z-axis was just an idea. With this in mind, I reckon if everything with a name in the game had an article that would be *A Good Thing* (tm). Just my own opinion, feel free to disagree. Ideally, articles for things like stones should contain a template constructed from the raws, with prose/dialogue manually added.<br />
Even things like [[screw pump]] could have a template driven section, advising what the components are / who makes it etc. Maybe <nowiki>{{building|Building Name|Component 1:Component 1 name|Component X| component X name|Constructed by|trade}}</nowiki> or similar.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 08:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree, probably, although that sounds like a lot of work. I think the stone templates and articles could do with a bit of a cleanup and more in-game information. I mostly use the articles to see if there's anything notable about a particular stone and then check out the wikipedia page. Some of the wikipedia links are broken or indirect now because disambiguity pages have been added since. Also, the wikipedia links are right at the bottom of very long boxes listing ores and gems and the like - I suggest adding drop down boxes to the templates that contain all that information but which are minimized by default. Or changing the template so that the wikipedia link wraps around the stone name at the top. --[[User:Harmonica|Harmonica]] 01:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Way late to this party, apologies. Tables are no good (to me) if they aren't sortable. The World Ends With You (a Nintendo DS game) Wikia portal/wiki thing has an ''awesome'' method for adding sortable tables. Some gadget called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki Semantic MediaWiki] that hooks into the Wiki to automatically pull data out as you request it, then display it in easy-to-read and use sortable tables. The TWEWY Wikia has [http://twewy.wikia.com/wiki/The_World_Ends_With_You:Semantic_MediaWiki a page on it] for their editors, giving a few examples of how powerful it is. Their use of the tool is to easily pull information from a table of 304 items, each containing 30 attributes, to generate lists comparing and compiling various items. Hugely powerful, extremely flexible.<br />
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This type of tool would work wonderfully with a PHP RAW parser, or even simple dumps of the RAWs to the Wiki. Think of how easy it would be to update the entire Wiki across the board when new versions come out. New critters? Changes to existing critters? Update the information in one spot and it trickles down through the entire Wiki! That's in addition, of course, to being able to, say, generate tables listing how many bones each creature drops when killed, then sort to see which one drops the most. Pretty sweet stuff.<br />
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With some sort of system in place for wading through all the data on the wiki, one wouldn't have to worry about having too much information, right? -- [[User:Blank|Blank]] 04:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Particularly for stone, I think that it would be a good idea to describe each individual stone relative to other, similar stones. Let's use [[sandstone]] as an example. Suppose that I read (either in its own article, or in a table) something along the lines of "Sandstone is a [[sedimentary]] layer. Unlike most sedimentary layers, it may contain [[aquifers]] or veins of [[native copper]]." If I already know what a sedimentary layer is (and how it differs from other types of layers), this information will be much easier to process and much more useful than a full list of everything that appears in sandstone. If I have no idea what a sedimentary layer is, this will tell me that there are several sedimentary layers and that they all have many things in common, which is again more useful than a list of everything that appears in sandstone. --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 08:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:That's not the way this (any?) wiki is set up. The idea is that a lesser concept (here, "sandstone") need not include redundant info from a larger, parent concept (here, "sedimentary layer"). If you don't know what a sed'y layer is (or an aquifer or a vein or whatever) you click that link. If, then, you don't know what a "layer" is, you click that link. Sounds good at first, but if every lesser article included an explanation, even a quick synopsis, of the info for all relevant articles on broader, umbrella concepts, the articles, and this wiki as a whole, would explode beyond usefulness. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks for making my point for me. If you look at the current sandstone article, it lists everything contained in sandstone. Looking at just the ores and non-generic stones, we have: Native copper, Hematite, Limonite, Magnetite, Native platinum, Tetrahedrite, Bituminous coal, Lignite, Bauxite. All of these except for native copper appear in every sedimentary layer. That's not even counting all of the generic stone (especially gypsum with its five other types of generic stone contained in it) and (mostly low-value) gems. 95% of the text in this article is redundant, and could easily be summarized by "This layer is exactly like every other sedimentary layer except for these two differences". --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 09:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::Ah - ''that's'' your point. (When you said "describe", I thought you were advocating a narrative commentary on and verbal expansion of the info included in the sidebar.) When I was talking about not having redundant info, I was talking text - which is quite terse in this case, exactly because of the point you make. Those sidebars were designed to encapsulate the key info, an "at a glance" sort of thing, to avoid exactly what you're talking about in narrative form. Are the sidebars redundant? Often, yes. But they are the style this wiki has adopted for ''all'' stone. So you're talking not just about changing sed'y layers, but the style approach to all stone, since they would not then be consistent across the board. (Not how I would have personally designed the layout, but it's there and it works, and well. Any stone, same layout, same info in the same place, bam got it.) And when discussing presentation and usability issues, any article has to be taken both individually and in the context of others "like" it - here, any "stone" article is the same layout, the same info at a glance, which (for now) trumps whatever redundancies exist. Perhaps a quick line such as you're stating would go well, since there is, indeed, very little unique to say about any one sub-type of sedimentary layer, and that is info in and of itself. (Take a look at any [[igneous extrusive]] except obsidian for something similar.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 16:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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A lot of people have been talking a lot of things about reorganizing the information on the stones pages. After browsing around on them for a while, I've found the information to be mostly scattered and difficult to draw conclusions from. For example, I wasn't aware that each geographic stone type had a base list of stones that can appear, while only some of them have a couple of unique stones that may appear along with that list. It wasn't until I began gathering all of that data together for myself, that I found the patterns. I had to work to tie it all together. So, I have a partially completed table of pulldown menus on my user page right now. If anyone's interested they could take a look and tell me what they think? (Yes, I know a lot of it is redundant. I have an idea on how to fix this, but I haven't completely decided yet) --Kydo 13:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Not a Roguelike ==<br />
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Dwarf Fortress only resembles a Roguelike in the sense that everything kills you. ASCII graphics haven't connoted Rogue-resemblance since Diablo came out with modern 3D graphics and was still considered a Roguelike.<br />
[[User:LogicalDash|LogicalDash]] 22:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
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I agree with you for Fortress mode, but adventurer mode is rogue like.--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 22:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:DF is rogue-like like.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 08:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
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LogicalDash, Diablo is in 2D, not 3D. --[[User:612DwarfAvenue|612DwarfAvenue]] 05:10, 27 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Link to Add Quotes ==<br />
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To get help on how to add quotes to the main page, consult [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|this]] link.<br />
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== Incoming New Version ==<br />
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Guys. We might as well prepare for the new version that will be coming by the end of the year (maybe). What will need to change? Weapons and armor, the underground stuff... I don't know all of it. But it's extensive. Get ready.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Well, we don't know all the details, and names of jobs/items can change before actual release. [[User:Kurokikaze|Kurokikaze]] 16:14, 8 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:I don't see what this has to do with anything, i guess it's nice of you to tell us. But what do you mean "get ready?"<br />
: Gird your loins, gentlemen. Or something.<br />
::It'll be hard to cover every page - if you edit, try to follow up on links, etc. Might also have to check the "oldest pages" listing to see that they've all been updated (except it's broken atm). The worst currently is that we ''still'' have legacy crap from earlier versions in obscure corners and comments that's not relevant to current version. Bonus.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:This might be useful: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AT8EQVUjrv96ZGc5cnBwOHZfMjgyY3FzZHFtanA&hl=en<br />
:Are we just changing this wiki? (as opposed to forking with the new version, in case some people keep playing 40d?) [[Special:Contributions/206.45.111.58|206.45.111.58]] 22:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Forking sounds good to me. But I have no idea how well wikis handle forking. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 14:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::In any case I think it would be a good idea to updated articles as is, and not wipe them out like in the wiki's switch to 3d which simply wiped out a lot of good information along with outdated text. Forking is a good route to take if people don't want to lose 40d inforamtion. [[User:Richards|Richards]] 19:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Interwiki ==<br />
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Correct link to Russian DF wiki, please.<br />
Right link = www.dfwk.ru instead current www.dfwiki.ru --[[Special:Contributions/91.192.82.106|91.192.82.106]] 11:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
:It's done, so should we delete this conservation? (not that great at wiki myself) [[User:Inawarminister|Inawarminister]] 09:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Random page ==<br />
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Why is "Random page" only bringing me to "Count Consort"? :\ --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 22:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
:It seems "Random page" is only random daily... Is this intentional? --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 20:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
::There's probably something wrong with your browser cache settings - it works fine for me. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Random images ==<br />
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Where are the images on the main page coming from? It's easy to find the quotes, but where are the images? [[User:MC Dirty|MC Dirty]] 15:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:I have an image I'd like added... I'll put it on my userpage if anyone wants to take a look at it and see if it's acceptable for uploading. --[[User:Waladil|Waladil]] 06:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== New Category Idea - Well Known Dwarves ==<br />
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After reading some stories on many of the most awesome dwarfs to show up in this game. (Namely Captain Ironblood, Morul, Tholtig) That a category, perhaps a sub one to Humor and Stories just for Dwarves that are very very clearly above the normal for the already outrageous(ly awesome) game of Dwarf Fortress. However do to the fact this is less on the game mechanics and such, the idea is first here so other's can figure if it's worth having a category. One thing that comes to mind is there really should be some sort of limit to what makes a Dwarf and Epic/Well Known Dwarf so as to prevent people from putting everyone they liked up there rather then the few '''everyone''' likes. Mostly asking as there is a handful of such dwarfs and that number is only going to (slowly) grow. Each said Dwarf I think deserves some sort of noting on a page for my two cents on the topic.<br />
:I definitely thing that this is a great idea in the true spirit of DF.<br />
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== Images ==<br />
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So, what does everyone think? Would it be a good idea to have real-world images (or possibly sketches for fantasy, if applicable) of the following:<br />
* Trees<br />
* Fish<br />
* Land animals<br />
* Weapons and armor<br />
* Stones<br />
* Ores<br />
* Land features (desert, savannah, etc.)<br />
* Gems<br />
* Metals<br />
* Plants<br />
We already have two pages with example images for a [[Pike_(weapon)#Pike|weapon]] and a [[Sandstone|stone]] for example. I find this very nice for visualizing my fortress and what's going on, since I'm not very familiar with many of the distinctions DF makes. I mean, I know what a fish looks like but I haven't got a clue what the difference between a pike and a char is, or a birch and alder, or even bronze and pewter to be honest.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 22:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:The normal issues with this kind of thing is REAL-WORLD publishers being annoying with copyright. I guess if we can find it from the real-world wiki then there is a good chance it is a public domain image.<br />
:There is no way in the world it would hurt an article to have one of these. Although, for fantasy objects, materials, and creatures, there may well be some discussion about if the "Dragon" should be a European, Oriental, or some other dragon (and so on for the rest).<br />
:<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
::Well, I've added pictures to some of the layer stones and vermin, as well as all the ores. If anyone is interested, you can link to files on wikimedia commons as if they were internal files now.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 04:52, 8 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::What if those of us with artistic skills were to produce original content for such pages? For example, I could easily do a few drawings depicting certain fantasy creatures as well as actual creatures. --Kydo 22:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
::Who says that the 'Dragon' as a creature isn't a generalization of any species? To be honest, with the graphics as they are, I think that most of Dwarf Fortress comes down to the way the user imagines it, rather than how it appears on screen. Rather like the old text based adventure games of old.--[[Special:Contributions/85.12.64.150|85.12.64.150]] 10:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Whoever you are, that is why i don't use a tileset.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== No link to World Generation? ==<br />
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Home page needs a link to World Generation. I thought of adding it, but didn't want to upset the delicate symmetry happing in the menus. Thoughts as to where it could go? [[Special:Contributions/118.208.7.232|118.208.7.232]] 04:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions&diff=64292Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions2010-03-02T06:43:54Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* My vision */</p>
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<div>== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==<br />
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Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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: I did see that before and I think that's awesome as notes about particular items in an article, but it doesn't quite bring us to the two goals I hoped for [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions|here]]. It informs users about a statement but because of the difficulty (and undesirability) of labeling every statement in an article I think a single template per article can bring something different to the table. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::[[Template:old]] is the same functionality but with a box. Is this what you need, or did you have something else in mind? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::Much closer, I think a box for an article (maybe shifted to the top-right) is necessary for this, in order to provide the benefit of information for the user. A difference is I'd like this box to be on every article so that not only are articles labeled as out of date, but also as up to date. Most importantly I'm more about discussing the conceptual idea of this kind of organization, then we can devise an appropriate implementation. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::From what I've seen so far, it looks like what you want is a trivial step away from the things already in place. Is putting the box in the top right corner and putting one on every article the only difference? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh I'm not saying it's a fundemental change, but it's implementation will allow for the large project of updating after this big update of DF. There are some details I think should be part of this change:<br />
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:::*A box on every article stating if the article is up to date or not. If it's not, also stating up to what version it is up to date.<br />
:::*A categorization scheme that follows like so:<br />
:::**If it's up to date, put in two categories: something like "up to date", and something like "version ______"<br />
:::**If it's not up to date, put it in two categories: something like "obsolete", and something like "version _____"<br />
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:::Each page should be able to just list the version it's updated as of, the template should determine whether "<nowiki>{{Version|40d}}</nowiki>" should end up in category "up to date" or category "obsolete". This should be done in such a way that when a new version comes out we can make a small change to the template and EVERY article will become "obsolete" and users can over time go through them and confirm that they are still up-to-date by changing the template to refer to the new version. ''I think this is the major aspect I'm proposing that isn't a trivial difference from the current method of organization and upkeep here''. Do you get what I'm suggesting? If I thought it was a trival difference I would have just implemented it and asked what people thought, but this could be a very big deal if we go through with it. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::Take a look at [[template:vcat]]. This is the template currently placed on all of the version category pages. It compares the version the category corresponds to with [[template:current/version]] and displays a message based on whether or not it matches. Is this the type of thing you want? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::This is certainly a useful feature already in place that would likely go on the categories that will be created, or it might just stay as is but the version template will change slightly. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:Perhaps use "New", "Old", and "Obsolete" markers? DF2010 is "New", 40d is "Old", and pre-40d is "Obsolete"? I like the idea of a small box up in the corner, and a category to group them. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 23:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::I would want to make sure we don't get out of hand; new uses will be likely to ignore anything marked "Old" even if it continues to be accurate (nobody had verified it). Perhaps something like "This page is X releases old; some information may be changed" or something. Most releases don't change more than a few major areas (DF2010 is an exception because of the length of release, but even it won't be changing everything). I do think that something like this is VERY important for "tutorial" sections; a single key change could stymie a new user; and we'd lose them forever. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 00:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Well of course and that's a detail on the text in the template. There are multiple goals to accomplish and realistically I don't think it would take long on a minor to average version to go through and just check each article to make sure it's up to date. There are a lot but it's not too much, and there a lot of active editors on here who if given a straightforward task of article version checking would be able to accomplish it in the early days of a new version release I'm sure. I also think the New/Old(Current)/Obsolete(Old) is a great addition. That way we can do the transition of New to Current for DF2010 after we've done a lot of the work. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:The problem with "updating" all the old version's pages is that is based on the premise that a page, as a whole, can both be "updated" and then accurately labeled as such. It can't, not either. Pieces will be updated, subsections, or single elements of subsections, but even then only as accurate as that last editor understood the changes. Think about the changes that the Wound/Healing system will undergo, or Materials/Values, or Weapons/Armor, and all the directly associated pages and concepts, and references and paraphrasing in other articles - could be massive and subtle at the same time. When does a label get changed? If each User only edits a bit at a time (and few of us rewrite entire pages!), how do we know we've filtered out'' all'' the legacy information? I ''do'' like the idea of beginning new version labels for each version's article on the same subject - altho' that would almost ''require'' different sites to allow for identical article names. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::I don't disagree with your opinion on bit-by-bit changes, it makes sense. I think your below idea might be the way to go, with articles of the new version labeled with a suffix (DF2010) linking back to the "old" version, which links forward to the 2010 version. A new site is definitely not needed and would cause a huge amount of problems imo. I think a simple template on every article (like I described) pointing to a 2010 version can be done by a handful of people with a little time. Then the 2010 version can start with just that template (which will automatically point backwards). This will include the separate page like you suggested, but would still accomplish the goals I had hoped to accomplish. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::<nods> Those "goals" being:<br />
:::* Allow users to know an article is up to date<br />
:::* If an article isn't up to date, allow a user to know exactly how out of date it currently is.<br />
:::* Allow editors to easily find articles which are out of date and improve them. <br />
:::It seems no article can ever be confirmed as 100% up to date - new observations and insights make this a very dynamic and wiki-appropriate process. But if we can ''start'' every 2010 article (and every version in the future!) with currently accurate info, even if that's only a fraction of what we "knew" for d40, that's as big a step as we can take in the right direction.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== My vision ==<br />
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(For what it's worth). I mentioned a desire to look into the possibility of doing this on my Admin application, in the Q&A process. When I first joined the DF community, we had just(?) undergone a version shift, and the pages here and users on the [[Forums]] here were rife with misinformation and contradictory understandings of the game. Newbies would look in the wiki and find ancient history mixed side-by-side with recent edits, some stuff that went back to the 2-D version, and that would be presented as gospel and no one knew any different. The ''very'' recent revelation that workshops do NOT make [[noise]] in d40 is a perfect example. I'd ''love'' to see this version change-over done differently.<br />
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What I had envisioned was a category template, something bold and unmistakable like [[mod]] or [[delete]], that marked a page (or every major subsection?) as "OLD VERSION : d40" (or whatever). (This would also create a category page where all those could be scanned at a glance.) Those pages would '''not''' be edited for DF2010 - to do that would invite a piecemeal disaster that would spiral into the same jumbled quagmire ''(or probably worse!)'' that I first stepped into. As a User wants to address a topic, a new page is started - if that is ''identical'' to the prev info ([[dwarf]], perhaps, etc), then it's mostly just copy/paste - but if not, then it gets edited and updated on the new page. If only part of it can be verified, then only part of that older page makes the transition at that time. Thus (in theory*) only material that has been confirmed as "DF2010 accurate" will make it to the "current" wiki, and the rest is clearly marked as legacy but stays intact as that.<br />
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''(* I have no illusions that users will not find a way to screw this up at times. But it has to be better than opening a long legacy article that has already had a dozen editors shake it up - but it's unclear what has and what has not been addressed. [[Armor]], or [[skill]], for instance.)''<br />
<br />
The new pages would have a link to the old one(s), so users could see what if any old info is still applicable or unconfirmed, and/or what needs to be translated/updated and added, but the new page will grow the new article from the ground up, rather than pretend a dozen users could patch an accurate final product together from an inaccurate but similar one, one edit at a time.<br />
<br />
It's the difference between repairing a totaled car, and using only the good pieces to rebuild a new one.<br />
<br />
I'm not experienced enough in the wiki-code to know if or how the two "versions" would be kept distinct if we stayed on this site - many articles will certainly want the same Name, so... yeah. That's what I thought the new site/engine would be used for, not simply copy/pasting current articles and being right where we are now, right where we were with the last significant change, right where we don't want to be.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:IMO. Personally you would do this by copying every <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki> (say, [[Miner]]) to a new namespace. With redirects from main namespace to the version namespace.<br />
:So <nowiki>[[Miner]]</nowiki> would redirect to <nowiki>[[VerABC:Miner]]</nowiki>. With a simple Page Copy, editors could copy the whole page, and easily update it to DF2010.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]]<br />
::Um, what's the right word?... NO!!! That is ''exactly'' what I would NOT want to see happen! And sorry to shout, but that is so far off the mark it frightens me. That achieves nothing but two legacy sites. What I would prefer is that the new page is blank, and ''only'' information that has gone thru a user's confirmation process is added to that new article. Blind, bulk "copy/pasting" is not that. It's ''much'' easier to read over one section at a time and update that, than to try to weed out legacy information buried in an entire article that has been "mostly edited". For one, how does anyone know what has and has not been checked at least once? Yes, there will be constant updates - but the core information is then at least (in theory) info on 2010, not d40, and any clear d40 legacy material has already been filtered out. ("Healing and wounds" jumps immediately to mind as a collection of articles that would lead to a disastrous "rewrite" - but snipping bits and pieces, and adding that to the updated system - that gives us better accuracy for the end product.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
Something like this, [[Template:D40x]]:<br />
{{D40x}}<br />
<br />
:I like where you're going and I think this could fit nicely with the goals I had in mind when I wrote this. For each article we could have a box in it. Saying that this article was updated as of version 40d, for the new version click "here". Here will link to "''article name'' (DF2010)" or something similar. That article will have a box saying it was updated as of DF2010, and for the old version click "here", where here will link to "''article name''". This can easily be done via templates.<br />
:I understand your concern about updating articles bit-by-bit, and I see a lot of value in your suggestion. I think at SOME point though after the release of DF2010 we'll need to mass move articles so that the 2010 versions become the ''article name'' verions, and the ''article name'' versions become ''article name'' (40d), and the template placed can have a minor modification to continue functioning after a mass move.<br />
:Ultimately I think this will require more administrative work (move-over-redirect for example), and perhaps a larger set of work for editors, but it will more likely have a better end-product then a bit-by-bit change, which is really most important. Organization on something like this is key though, but I like your approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 11:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::And I value your experience with what's possible - that could totally work, linking each article to a main (or "best") article in the other version ("best" being relative, depending). And, yes, the "migration" between naming conventions could be a pain and will have to happen as we phase out d40 (another reason I was thinking 2 sites, but if we don't have to go there then that's better still). I completely re-edited some of the larger clusters left by the previous version changes - the whole Armor/Weapon series, and the various Defense Design/Fortress Design/Fortress Defense/Design a Fortress/Defend your Fortress/Siege Engine/Siege/Design a Defense/Design Theory/Design Theory pages - you get the idea. That was ugly and took weeks of planning and then editing, and the info was already mostly there and it was largely "one vision", so I could keep track of my own progress - we can't expect that with this shift. Many of ''groups'' of d40 article will need to be re-conceived 100% ''as well as'' have all new info, rearranged to better fit the 2010 game system and paradigm. "Squads" and "Burrows" will wreck havoc with the current Military and Design concepts, and Wounds/Doctors will most likely call for a new series of articles. It's not going to be a 1:1 translation, and we shouldn't plan on it being so.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::I get what you're saying about the changes being big enough that "blind copying" d40 info won't work to make accurate DF2010 articles. But I honestly think the use of a seperate name-space for (legacy) version specific information is a tidier way of "quarantining" it than '''Article (Version)'''. The "quarantining" process was more what I was getting at, than the process of getting "accurate DF2010" articles into main-space. <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 12:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::::I kind of like the namespaced articles idea. However, don't let what I think will / wont work override every other opinion. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 12:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: I think the namespace is a good option. My only worry is problems it could cause to things such as search, which the parenthetical notation wouldn't have those problems. On the other hand it isn't as easy to separate a page name and the version it applies to if the version is in parentheses, those I suspect the difference may be minimal especially with parser functions. One thing we don't want is to make navigation more difficult to users. If they type "weapons" they should arrive at the appropriate article automatically. Which either means that information has to be on the article [[Weapons]] (without namespace or parentheses) or the article [[Weapons]] has to redirect to the correct version. I think having [[DF2010:Weapons]] and [[40d:Weapons]] could certainly work, but then when there is a version change all of the articles like [[Weapons]] have to point to the new version. This isn't a big deal to me though, and is a necessary problem to overcome if we're going to have an article for each topic for each version. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::: I'll update the article page with what I think is the current consensus approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::My suggestion would be to use the "main" namespace (ie: no special prefix) for whatever version is current.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Updated proposal ==<br />
<br />
I made some changes, hopefully they are clear. Thoughts? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* I wonder if what we're doing here would be more suited for a release like DF2010 - a jump from 39d to 40d, say, wouldn't be that much and shouldn't make the whole wiki covered with orange boxes. Perhaps a smaller unverified note unless a manual "this change was major" button is hit somewhere. I like what is there currently, as articles would "rust" just like dwarven skills if not updated. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 04:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions&diff=64241Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions2010-03-01T12:27:20Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* My vision */</p>
<hr />
<div>== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==<br />
<br />
Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I did see that before and I think that's awesome as notes about particular items in an article, but it doesn't quite bring us to the two goals I hoped for [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions|here]]. It informs users about a statement but because of the difficulty (and undesirability) of labeling every statement in an article I think a single template per article can bring something different to the table. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::[[Template:old]] is the same functionality but with a box. Is this what you need, or did you have something else in mind? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Much closer, I think a box for an article (maybe shifted to the top-right) is necessary for this, in order to provide the benefit of information for the user. A difference is I'd like this box to be on every article so that not only are articles labeled as out of date, but also as up to date. Most importantly I'm more about discussing the conceptual idea of this kind of organization, then we can devise an appropriate implementation. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::From what I've seen so far, it looks like what you want is a trivial step away from the things already in place. Is putting the box in the top right corner and putting one on every article the only difference? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh I'm not saying it's a fundemental change, but it's implementation will allow for the large project of updating after this big update of DF. There are some details I think should be part of this change:<br />
<br />
:::*A box on every article stating if the article is up to date or not. If it's not, also stating up to what version it is up to date.<br />
:::*A categorization scheme that follows like so:<br />
:::**If it's up to date, put in two categories: something like "up to date", and something like "version ______"<br />
:::**If it's not up to date, put it in two categories: something like "obsolete", and something like "version _____"<br />
<br />
:::Each page should be able to just list the version it's updated as of, the template should determine whether "<nowiki>{{Version|40d}}</nowiki>" should end up in category "up to date" or category "obsolete". This should be done in such a way that when a new version comes out we can make a small change to the template and EVERY article will become "obsolete" and users can over time go through them and confirm that they are still up-to-date by changing the template to refer to the new version. ''I think this is the major aspect I'm proposing that isn't a trivial difference from the current method of organization and upkeep here''. Do you get what I'm suggesting? If I thought it was a trival difference I would have just implemented it and asked what people thought, but this could be a very big deal if we go through with it. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Take a look at [[template:vcat]]. This is the template currently placed on all of the version category pages. It compares the version the category corresponds to with [[template:current/version]] and displays a message based on whether or not it matches. Is this the type of thing you want? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::This is certainly a useful feature already in place that would likely go on the categories that will be created, or it might just stay as is but the version template will change slightly. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps use "New", "Old", and "Obsolete" markers? DF2010 is "New", 40d is "Old", and pre-40d is "Obsolete"? I like the idea of a small box up in the corner, and a category to group them. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 23:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I would want to make sure we don't get out of hand; new uses will be likely to ignore anything marked "Old" even if it continues to be accurate (nobody had verified it). Perhaps something like "This page is X releases old; some information may be changed" or something. Most releases don't change more than a few major areas (DF2010 is an exception because of the length of release, but even it won't be changing everything). I do think that something like this is VERY important for "tutorial" sections; a single key change could stymie a new user; and we'd lose them forever. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 00:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Well of course and that's a detail on the text in the template. There are multiple goals to accomplish and realistically I don't think it would take long on a minor to average version to go through and just check each article to make sure it's up to date. There are a lot but it's not too much, and there a lot of active editors on here who if given a straightforward task of article version checking would be able to accomplish it in the early days of a new version release I'm sure. I also think the New/Old(Current)/Obsolete(Old) is a great addition. That way we can do the transition of New to Current for DF2010 after we've done a lot of the work. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:The problem with "updating" all the old version's pages is that is based on the premise that a page, as a whole, can both be "updated" and then accurately labeled as such. It can't, not either. Pieces will be updated, subsections, or single elements of subsections, but even then only as accurate as that last editor understood the changes. Think about the changes that the Wound/Healing system will undergo, or Materials/Values, or Weapons/Armor, and all the directly associated pages and concepts, and references and paraphrasing in other articles - could be massive and subtle at the same time. When does a label get changed? If each User only edits a bit at a time (and few of us rewrite entire pages!), how do we know we've filtered out'' all'' the legacy information? I ''do'' like the idea of beginning new version labels for each version's article on the same subject - altho' that would almost ''require'' different sites to allow for identical article names. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::I don't disagree with your opinion on bit-by-bit changes, it makes sense. I think your below idea might be the way to go, with articles of the new version labeled with a suffix (DF2010) linking back to the "old" version, which links forward to the 2010 version. A new site is definitely not needed and would cause a huge amount of problems imo. I think a simple template on every article (like I described) pointing to a 2010 version can be done by a handful of people with a little time. Then the 2010 version can start with just that template (which will automatically point backwards). This will include the separate page like you suggested, but would still accomplish the goals I had hoped to accomplish. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::<nods> Those "goals" being:<br />
:::* Allow users to know an article is up to date<br />
:::* If an article isn't up to date, allow a user to know exactly how out of date it currently is.<br />
:::* Allow editors to easily find articles which are out of date and improve them. <br />
:::It seems no article can ever be confirmed as 100% up to date - new observations and insights make this a very dynamic and wiki-appropriate process. But if we can ''start'' every 2010 article (and every version in the future!) with currently accurate info, even if that's only a fraction of what we "knew" for d40, that's as big a step as we can take in the right direction.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My vision ==<br />
<br />
(For what it's worth). I mentioned a desire to look into the possibility of doing this on my Admin application, in the Q&A process. When I first joined the DF community, we had just(?) undergone a version shift, and the pages here and users on the [[Forums]] here were rife with misinformation and contradictory understandings of the game. Newbies would look in the wiki and find ancient history mixed side-by-side with recent edits, some stuff that went back to the 2-D version, and that would be presented as gospel and no one knew any different. The ''very'' recent revelation that workshops do NOT make [[noise]] in d40 is a perfect example. I'd ''love'' to see this version change-over done differently.<br />
<br />
What I had envisioned was a category template, something bold and unmistakable like [[mod]] or [[delete]], that marked a page (or every major subsection?) as "OLD VERSION : d40" (or whatever). (This would also create a category page where all those could be scanned at a glance.) Those pages would '''not''' be edited for DF2010 - to do that would invite a piecemeal disaster that would spiral into the same jumbled quagmire ''(or probably worse!)'' that I first stepped into. As a User wants to address a topic, a new page is started - if that is ''identical'' to the prev info ([[dwarf]], perhaps, etc), then it's mostly just copy/paste - but if not, then it gets edited and updated on the new page. If only part of it can be verified, then only part of that older page makes the transition at that time. Thus (in theory*) only material that has been confirmed as "DF2010 accurate" will make it to the "current" wiki, and the rest is clearly marked as legacy but stays intact as that.<br />
<br />
''(* I have no illusions that users will not find a way to screw this up at times. But it has to be better than opening a long legacy article that has already had a dozen editors shake it up - but it's unclear what has and what has not been addressed. [[Armor]], or [[skill]], for instance.)''<br />
<br />
The new pages would have a link to the old one(s), so users could see what if any old info is still applicable or unconfirmed, and/or what needs to be translated/updated and added, but the new page will grow the new article from the ground up, rather than pretend a dozen users could patch an accurate final product together from an inaccurate but similar one, one edit at a time.<br />
<br />
It's the difference between repairing a totaled car, and using only the good pieces to rebuild a new one.<br />
<br />
I'm not experienced enough in the wiki-code to know if or how the two "versions" would be kept distinct if we stayed on this site - many articles will certainly want the same Name, so... yeah. That's what I thought the new site/engine would be used for, not simply copy/pasting current articles and being right where we are now, right where we were with the last significant change, right where we don't want to be.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:IMO. Personally you would do this by copying every <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki> (say, [[Miner]]) to a new namespace. With redirects from main namespace to the version namespace.<br />
:So <nowiki>[[Miner]]</nowiki> would redirect to <nowiki>[[VerABC:Miner]]</nowiki>. With a simple Page Copy, editors could copy the whole page, and easily update it to DF2010.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]]<br />
::Um, what's the right word?... NO!!! That is ''exactly'' what I would NOT want to see happen! And sorry to shout, but that is so far off the mark it frightens me. That achieves nothing but two legacy sites. What I would prefer is that the new page is blank, and ''only'' information that has gone thru a user's confirmation process is added to that new article. Blind, bulk "copy/pasting" is not that. It's ''much'' easier to read over one section at a time and update that, than to try to weed out legacy information buried in an entire article that has been "mostly edited". For one, how does anyone know what has and has not been checked at least once? Yes, there will be constant updates - but the core information is then at least (in theory) info on 2010, not d40, and any clear d40 legacy material has already been filtered out. ("Healing and wounds" jumps immediately to mind as a collection of articles that would lead to a disastrous "rewrite" - but snipping bits and pieces, and adding that to the updated system - that gives us better accuracy for the end product.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
Something like this, [[Template:D40x]]:<br />
{{D40x}}<br />
<br />
:I like where you're going and I think this could fit nicely with the goals I had in mind when I wrote this. For each article we could have a box in it. Saying that this article was updated as of version 40d, for the new version click "here". Here will link to "''article name'' (DF2010)" or something similar. That article will have a box saying it was updated as of DF2010, and for the old version click "here", where here will link to "''article name''". This can easily be done via templates.<br />
:I understand your concern about updating articles bit-by-bit, and I see a lot of value in your suggestion. I think at SOME point though after the release of DF2010 we'll need to mass move articles so that the 2010 versions become the ''article name'' verions, and the ''article name'' versions become ''article name'' (40d), and the template placed can have a minor modification to continue functioning after a mass move.<br />
:Ultimately I think this will require more administrative work (move-over-redirect for example), and perhaps a larger set of work for editors, but it will more likely have a better end-product then a bit-by-bit change, which is really most important. Organization on something like this is key though, but I like your approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 11:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::And I value your experience with what's possible - that could totally work, linking each article to a main (or "best") article in the other version ("best" being relative, depending). And, yes, the "migration" between naming conventions could be a pain and will have to happen as we phase out d40 (another reason I was thinking 2 sites, but if we don't have to go there then that's better still). I completely re-edited some of the larger clusters left by the previous version changes - the whole Armor/Weapon series, and the various Defense Design/Fortress Design/Fortress Defense/Design a Fortress/Defend your Fortress/Siege Engine/Siege/Design a Defense/Design Theory/Design Theory pages - you get the idea. That was ugly and took weeks of planning and then editing, and the info was already mostly there and it was largely "one vision", so I could keep track of my own progress - we can't expect that with this shift. Many of ''groups'' of d40 article will need to be re-conceived 100% ''as well as'' have all new info, rearranged to better fit the 2010 game system and paradigm. "Squads" and "Burrows" will wreck havoc with the current Military and Design concepts, and Wounds/Doctors will most likely call for a new series of articles. It's not going to be a 1:1 translation, and we shouldn't plan on it being so.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::I get what you're saying about the changes being big enough that "blind copying" d40 info won't work to make accurate DF2010 articles. But I honestly think the use of a seperate name-space for (legacy) version specific information is a tidier way of "quarantining" it than '''Article (Version)'''. The "quarantining" process was more what I was getting at, than the process of getting "accurate DF2010" articles into main-space. <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 12:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions&diff=64209Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions2010-03-01T10:18:22Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* My vision */</p>
<hr />
<div>== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==<br />
<br />
Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I did see that before and I think that's awesome as notes about particular items in an article, but it doesn't quite bring us to the two goals I hoped for [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions|here]]. It informs users about a statement but because of the difficulty (and undesirability) of labeling every statement in an article I think a single template per article can bring something different to the table. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::[[Template:old]] is the same functionality but with a box. Is this what you need, or did you have something else in mind? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Much closer, I think a box for an article (maybe shifted to the top-right) is necessary for this, in order to provide the benefit of information for the user. A difference is I'd like this box to be on every article so that not only are articles labeled as out of date, but also as up to date. Most importantly I'm more about discussing the conceptual idea of this kind of organization, then we can devise an appropriate implementation. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::From what I've seen so far, it looks like what you want is a trivial step away from the things already in place. Is putting the box in the top right corner and putting one on every article the only difference? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh I'm not saying it's a fundemental change, but it's implementation will allow for the large project of updating after this big update of DF. There are some details I think should be part of this change:<br />
<br />
:::*A box on every article stating if the article is up to date or not. If it's not, also stating up to what version it is up to date.<br />
:::*A categorization scheme that follows like so:<br />
:::**If it's up to date, put in two categories: something like "up to date", and something like "version ______"<br />
:::**If it's not up to date, put it in two categories: something like "obsolete", and something like "version _____"<br />
<br />
:::Each page should be able to just list the version it's updated as of, the template should determine whether "<nowiki>{{Version|40d}}</nowiki>" should end up in category "up to date" or category "obsolete". This should be done in such a way that when a new version comes out we can make a small change to the template and EVERY article will become "obsolete" and users can over time go through them and confirm that they are still up-to-date by changing the template to refer to the new version. ''I think this is the major aspect I'm proposing that isn't a trivial difference from the current method of organization and upkeep here''. Do you get what I'm suggesting? If I thought it was a trival difference I would have just implemented it and asked what people thought, but this could be a very big deal if we go through with it. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Take a look at [[template:vcat]]. This is the template currently placed on all of the version category pages. It compares the version the category corresponds to with [[template:current/version]] and displays a message based on whether or not it matches. Is this the type of thing you want? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::This is certainly a useful feature already in place that would likely go on the categories that will be created, or it might just stay as is but the version template will change slightly. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps use "New", "Old", and "Obsolete" markers? DF2010 is "New", 40d is "Old", and pre-40d is "Obsolete"? I like the idea of a small box up in the corner, and a category to group them. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 23:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I would want to make sure we don't get out of hand; new uses will be likely to ignore anything marked "Old" even if it continues to be accurate (nobody had verified it). Perhaps something like "This page is X releases old; some information may be changed" or something. Most releases don't change more than a few major areas (DF2010 is an exception because of the length of release, but even it won't be changing everything). I do think that something like this is VERY important for "tutorial" sections; a single key change could stymie a new user; and we'd lose them forever. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 00:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Well of course and that's a detail on the text in the template. There are multiple goals to accomplish and realistically I don't think it would take long on a minor to average version to go through and just check each article to make sure it's up to date. There are a lot but it's not too much, and there a lot of active editors on here who if given a straightforward task of article version checking would be able to accomplish it in the early days of a new version release I'm sure. I also think the New/Old(Current)/Obsolete(Old) is a great addition. That way we can do the transition of New to Current for DF2010 after we've done a lot of the work. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My vision ==<br />
<br />
(For what it's worth). I mentioned a desire to look into the possibility of doing this on my Admin application, in the Q&A process. When I first joined the DF community, we had just(?) undergone a version shift, and the pages here and users on the [[Forums]] here were rife with misinformation and contradictory understandings of the game. Newbies would look in the wiki and find ancient history mixed side-by-side with recent edits, some stuff that went back to the 2-D version, and that would be presented as gospel and no one knew any different. The ''very'' recent revelation that workshops do NOT make [[noise]] in d40 is a perfect example. I'd ''love'' to see this version change-over done differently.<br />
<br />
What I had envisioned was a category template, something bold and unmistakable like [[mod]] or [[delete]], that marked a page (or every major subsection?) as "OLD VERSION : d40" (or whatever). (This would also create a category page where all those could be scanned at a glance.) Those pages would '''not''' be edited for DF2010 - to do that would invite a piecemeal disaster that would spiral into the same jumbled quagmire ''(or probably worse!)'' that I first stepped into. As a User wants to address a topic, a new page is started - if that is ''identical'' to the prev info ([[dwarf]], perhaps, etc), then it's mostly just copy/paste - but if not, then it gets edited and updated on the new page. If only part of it can be verified, then only part of that older page makes the transition at that time. Thus (in theory*) only material that has been confirmed as "DF2010 accurate" will make it to the "current" wiki, and the rest is clearly marked as legacy but stays intact as that.<br />
<br />
''(* I have no illusions that users will not find a way to screw this up at times. But it has to be better than opening a long legacy article that has already had a dozen editors shake it up - but it's unclear what has and what has not been addressed. [[Armor]], or [[skill]], for instance.)''<br />
<br />
The new pages would have a link to the old one(s), so users could see what if any old info is still applicable or unconfirmed, and/or what needs to be translated/updated and added, but the new page will grow the new article from the ground up, rather than pretend a dozen users could patch an accurate final product together from an inaccurate but similar one, one edit at a time.<br />
<br />
It's the difference between repairing a totaled car, and using only the good pieces to rebuild a new one.<br />
<br />
I'm not experienced enough in the wiki-code to know if or how the two "versions" would be kept distinct if we stayed on this site - many articles will certainly want the same Name, so... yeah. That's what I thought the new site/engine would be used for, not simply copy/pasting current articles and being right where we are now, right where we were with the last significant change, right where we don't want to be.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:IMO. Personally you would do this by copying every <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki> (say, [[Miner]]) to a new namespace. With redirects from main namespace to the version namespace.<br />
:So <nowiki>[[Miner]]</nowiki> would redirect to <nowiki>[[VerABC:Miner]]</nowiki>. With a simple Page Copy, editors could copy the whole page, and easily update it to DF2010.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions&diff=64208Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions2010-03-01T10:16:37Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* My vision */</p>
<hr />
<div>== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==<br />
<br />
Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I did see that before and I think that's awesome as notes about particular items in an article, but it doesn't quite bring us to the two goals I hoped for [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions|here]]. It informs users about a statement but because of the difficulty (and undesirability) of labeling every statement in an article I think a single template per article can bring something different to the table. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::[[Template:old]] is the same functionality but with a box. Is this what you need, or did you have something else in mind? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Much closer, I think a box for an article (maybe shifted to the top-right) is necessary for this, in order to provide the benefit of information for the user. A difference is I'd like this box to be on every article so that not only are articles labeled as out of date, but also as up to date. Most importantly I'm more about discussing the conceptual idea of this kind of organization, then we can devise an appropriate implementation. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::From what I've seen so far, it looks like what you want is a trivial step away from the things already in place. Is putting the box in the top right corner and putting one on every article the only difference? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh I'm not saying it's a fundemental change, but it's implementation will allow for the large project of updating after this big update of DF. There are some details I think should be part of this change:<br />
<br />
:::*A box on every article stating if the article is up to date or not. If it's not, also stating up to what version it is up to date.<br />
:::*A categorization scheme that follows like so:<br />
:::**If it's up to date, put in two categories: something like "up to date", and something like "version ______"<br />
:::**If it's not up to date, put it in two categories: something like "obsolete", and something like "version _____"<br />
<br />
:::Each page should be able to just list the version it's updated as of, the template should determine whether "<nowiki>{{Version|40d}}</nowiki>" should end up in category "up to date" or category "obsolete". This should be done in such a way that when a new version comes out we can make a small change to the template and EVERY article will become "obsolete" and users can over time go through them and confirm that they are still up-to-date by changing the template to refer to the new version. ''I think this is the major aspect I'm proposing that isn't a trivial difference from the current method of organization and upkeep here''. Do you get what I'm suggesting? If I thought it was a trival difference I would have just implemented it and asked what people thought, but this could be a very big deal if we go through with it. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Take a look at [[template:vcat]]. This is the template currently placed on all of the version category pages. It compares the version the category corresponds to with [[template:current/version]] and displays a message based on whether or not it matches. Is this the type of thing you want? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::This is certainly a useful feature already in place that would likely go on the categories that will be created, or it might just stay as is but the version template will change slightly. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps use "New", "Old", and "Obsolete" markers? DF2010 is "New", 40d is "Old", and pre-40d is "Obsolete"? I like the idea of a small box up in the corner, and a category to group them. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 23:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I would want to make sure we don't get out of hand; new uses will be likely to ignore anything marked "Old" even if it continues to be accurate (nobody had verified it). Perhaps something like "This page is X releases old; some information may be changed" or something. Most releases don't change more than a few major areas (DF2010 is an exception because of the length of release, but even it won't be changing everything). I do think that something like this is VERY important for "tutorial" sections; a single key change could stymie a new user; and we'd lose them forever. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 00:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Well of course and that's a detail on the text in the template. There are multiple goals to accomplish and realistically I don't think it would take long on a minor to average version to go through and just check each article to make sure it's up to date. There are a lot but it's not too much, and there a lot of active editors on here who if given a straightforward task of article version checking would be able to accomplish it in the early days of a new version release I'm sure. I also think the New/Old(Current)/Obsolete(Old) is a great addition. That way we can do the transition of New to Current for DF2010 after we've done a lot of the work. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My vision ==<br />
<br />
(For what it's worth). I mentioned a desire to look into the possibility of doing this on my Admin application, in the Q&A process. When I first joined the DF community, we had just(?) undergone a version shift, and the pages here and users on the [[Forums]] here were rife with misinformation and contradictory understandings of the game. Newbies would look in the wiki and find ancient history mixed side-by-side with recent edits, some stuff that went back to the 2-D version, and that would be presented as gospel and no one knew any different. The ''very'' recent revelation that workshops do NOT make [[noise]] in d40 is a perfect example. I'd ''love'' to see this version change-over done differently.<br />
<br />
What I had envisioned was a category template, something bold and unmistakable like [[mod]] or [[delete]], that marked a page (or every major subsection?) as "OLD VERSION : d40" (or whatever). (This would also create a category page where all those could be scanned at a glance.) Those pages would '''not''' be edited for DF2010 - to do that would invite a piecemeal disaster that would spiral into the same jumbled quagmire ''(or probably worse!)'' that I first stepped into. As a User wants to address a topic, a new page is started - if that is ''identical'' to the prev info ([[dwarf]], perhaps, etc), then it's mostly just copy/paste - but if not, then it gets edited and updated on the new page. If only part of it can be verified, then only part of that older page makes the transition at that time. Thus (in theory*) only material that has been confirmed as "DF2010 accurate" will make it to the "current" wiki, and the rest is clearly marked as legacy but stays intact as that.<br />
<br />
''(* I have no illusions that users will not find a way to screw this up at times. But it has to be better than opening a long legacy article that has already had a dozen editors shake it up - but it's unclear what has and what has not been addressed. [[Armor]], or [[skill]], for instance.)''<br />
<br />
The new pages would have a link to the old one(s), so users could see what if any old info is still applicable or unconfirmed, and/or what needs to be translated/updated and added, but the new page will grow the new article from the ground up, rather than pretend a dozen users could patch an accurate final product together from an inaccurate but similar one, one edit at a time.<br />
<br />
It's the difference between repairing a totaled car, and using only the good pieces to rebuild a new one.<br />
<br />
I'm not experienced enough in the wiki-code to know if or how the two "versions" would be kept distinct if we stayed on this site - many articles will certainly want the same Name, so... yeah. That's what I thought the new site/engine would be used for, not simply copy/pasting current articles and being right where we are now, right where we were with the last significant change, right where we don't want to be.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:IMO. Personally you would do this by copying every <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki> (say, [[Miner]]) to a new namespace. With redirects from main namespace to the version namespace.<br />
:So [[Miner]] would redirect to [[VerABC:Miner]]. With a simple Page Copy, editors could copy the whole page, and easily update it to DF2010.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Mason11987&diff=64205User talk:Mason119872010-03-01T10:07:21Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Your message to me */</p>
<hr />
<div><center><div style="align:center;width:50%;border: 1px solid;margin: 10px 0px;padding:15px 10px 15px 50px;background-repeat: no-repeat;background-position: 10px center;background-color: #BDE5F8;">'''Hi, if you'd like to leave me a message click [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mason11987&action=edit&section=new here]. I'll respond on your talk page.'''</div></center><br />
<br />
== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==<br />
<br />
Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions]] [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Your message to me ==<br />
<br />
ie, [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/User_talk:GarrieIrons#Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions here]<br />
<br />
Thanks for [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/User_talk:GarrieIrons#Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions the link].<br />
<br />
Is the intent to mark every article with a version number?<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Mason11987&diff=64202User talk:Mason119872010-03-01T10:00:26Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Your message to me */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div><center><div style="align:center;width:50%;border: 1px solid;margin: 10px 0px;padding:15px 10px 15px 50px;background-repeat: no-repeat;background-position: 10px center;background-color: #BDE5F8;">'''Hi, if you'd like to leave me a message click [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mason11987&action=edit&section=new here]. I'll respond on your talk page.'''</div></center><br />
<br />
== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==<br />
<br />
Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions]] [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Your message to me ==<br />
<br />
ie, [http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions here]<br />
Thanks for the link.<br />
<br />
As a lapsed wikipedian, personally, I have a strong attachment to mediawiki.<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=File:Gallery.png&diff=64052File:Gallery.png2010-02-28T09:51:09Z<p>GarrieIrons: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Current_events&diff=64039Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Current events2010-02-28T06:06:16Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* New engine */</p>
<hr />
<div>==New engine==<br />
Possibly might have been nice to put some comments here about the new engine. I hope I'm not just talking to ghosts.<br />
<br />
For all it's technical issues - it is very easy to find out how to do things using mediawiki, because, there's that great big mediawiki people can go look at when they need to work something out.<br />
<br />
Secondly, I am finding the look of the "new" wiki... hard do read. Possibly the default "skin" is a crock of shit? (Are you doing your work using the default skin? If not - isn't that a hint?)<br />
Thirdly, I tried to sign up. Still no response?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Request for Adminship==<br />
[[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Request for Adminship]]<br />
* I want to find additional admin(s) for this wiki. If you think you'd be a good admin, post here and get community consensus behind your adminship electionism stuff and whatnot. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 09:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
** What does it take to be a good Dwarf Fortress Wiki admin? What does an admin do? And which skills are required to do it? --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 17:39, 13 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
***This. What is an admin's job here? --[[User:SenorPwnage|Señor Pwnage]] 03:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
****Basically, a wiki admin will help me track down and block spammers, clean up articles, and otherwise helps shape policy and encourage activity. An admin doesn't have the right to go out and be a douche, nor do they have the right to say "I'm an admin, thus my article edits are better" nor "I'm an admin, do as I say". Hopefully that makes some sense. --[[User:Briess|Briess]]<br />
** As conceited as it sounds, I'd like to put myself in the running for this position. I've administrated a wiki before, and tend to check back in here a lot anyway, and can catch a lot of what goes on. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 20:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
** I'll toss my hat in the ring. Haven't officially logged on in a while - been posting as [[User:75.62.155.145]]. I've got a mess of articles and rewrites to my name, and have been unofficially steering folk along DF Wiki philosophical lines, but I'll have to learn some of the "behind the scenes" wiki code.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 09:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
** Let's make an official way to do this, create a subpage of this requests for adminship page (IE, [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Request for Adminship/Albedo]] and fill out a template that I'm about to make --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 09:59, 18 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
** 'All users are encouraged to vote on adminship requests'. How exactly does one vote for a particular user? <br />
<br />
<br />
*The wiki has a new owner. <s>His first act was to add advertisements to profit off of our volunteer labor</s>. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 20:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
** THE ADVERTISEMENTS MUST FLOW! actually, I just moved them from the bottom to the side because the bottom stuff was breaking some of the layout code. [[User:Briess|Briess]] 20:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*Another discussion regarding general style and philosophy of the wiki, at [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Community Portal#We_spoil._Do_we_spoil_too_much.3F_Do_we_detail_pointlessly.3F|Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Community Portal]], asking whether or not much of our detail is pointless. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 02:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*Screenshots! Take interesting screenshots of parts of your fortress. Upload them to the wiki. Put them [[template talk:sg|here]] and see them on the main page. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*A call for opinion on 6 recently deleted quotes has been posted on the [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|Quote discussion page]]--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*A new standard for avoiding overly-long quotes on the main page has been suggested and posted - [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|Quote discussion page]].--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 04:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*[[Armor]] should be getting a rewrite soon, see [[Armor set]].--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 04:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:There had been about 5-6 pages on "defense", and suggestions and advice on various topics were scattered and repeated across all of them. The first stage of the effort to re-organize them into 4 tightly defined and user-friendly topics using current DF wiki naming conventions has resulted in 4 pages: a General guide and overview (rewrite of [[Defense guide]] article), and 3 new articles on specific design - layout and architecture ([[Defense design]]), traps ([[Trap design]]), and specific advice on organizing your military ([[Military design]]). <br />
:Discussion from any pages removed or renamed will be placed (or linked) under one of those four. Discussion re this re-organization is on the [[Talk:Fortress defense]] page.<br />
::--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*There is a more specific discussion of the several various (and often redundant) "defense" pages, and possibly combining, rewriting and/or reformatting them, on the [[Talk:Fortress defense]] page. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 05:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:*"Defense" rewrite" rough re-organization completed<br />
<br />
<br />
*There is currently a discussion regarding the general style and philosophy of this wiki, of "what deserves its own page" on the [[Talk:Main Page]]. Any and all are welcome to chime in.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 05:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Current_events&diff=64038Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Current events2010-02-28T06:05:53Z<p>GarrieIrons: </p>
<hr />
<div>==New engine==<br />
Possibly might have been nice to put some comments here about the new engine. I hope I'm not just talking to ghosts.<br />
<br />
For all it's technical issues - it is very easy to find out how to do things using mediawiki, because, there's that great big mediawiki people can go look at when they need to work something out.<br />
<br />
Secondly, I am finding the look of the "new" wiki... hard do read. Possibly the default "skin" is a crock of shit? (Are you doing your work using the default skin? If not - isn't that a hint?)<br />
Thirdly, I tried to sign up. Still no response?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Request for Adminship]]<br />
* I want to find additional admin(s) for this wiki. If you think you'd be a good admin, post here and get community consensus behind your adminship electionism stuff and whatnot. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 09:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
** What does it take to be a good Dwarf Fortress Wiki admin? What does an admin do? And which skills are required to do it? --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 17:39, 13 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
***This. What is an admin's job here? --[[User:SenorPwnage|Señor Pwnage]] 03:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
****Basically, a wiki admin will help me track down and block spammers, clean up articles, and otherwise helps shape policy and encourage activity. An admin doesn't have the right to go out and be a douche, nor do they have the right to say "I'm an admin, thus my article edits are better" nor "I'm an admin, do as I say". Hopefully that makes some sense. --[[User:Briess|Briess]]<br />
** As conceited as it sounds, I'd like to put myself in the running for this position. I've administrated a wiki before, and tend to check back in here a lot anyway, and can catch a lot of what goes on. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 20:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
** I'll toss my hat in the ring. Haven't officially logged on in a while - been posting as [[User:75.62.155.145]]. I've got a mess of articles and rewrites to my name, and have been unofficially steering folk along DF Wiki philosophical lines, but I'll have to learn some of the "behind the scenes" wiki code.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 09:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
** Let's make an official way to do this, create a subpage of this requests for adminship page (IE, [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Request for Adminship/Albedo]] and fill out a template that I'm about to make --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 09:59, 18 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
** 'All users are encouraged to vote on adminship requests'. How exactly does one vote for a particular user? <br />
<br />
<br />
*The wiki has a new owner. <s>His first act was to add advertisements to profit off of our volunteer labor</s>. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 20:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
** THE ADVERTISEMENTS MUST FLOW! actually, I just moved them from the bottom to the side because the bottom stuff was breaking some of the layout code. [[User:Briess|Briess]] 20:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*Another discussion regarding general style and philosophy of the wiki, at [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Community Portal#We_spoil._Do_we_spoil_too_much.3F_Do_we_detail_pointlessly.3F|Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Community Portal]], asking whether or not much of our detail is pointless. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 02:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*Screenshots! Take interesting screenshots of parts of your fortress. Upload them to the wiki. Put them [[template talk:sg|here]] and see them on the main page. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*A call for opinion on 6 recently deleted quotes has been posted on the [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|Quote discussion page]]--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*A new standard for avoiding overly-long quotes on the main page has been suggested and posted - [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|Quote discussion page]].--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 04:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*[[Armor]] should be getting a rewrite soon, see [[Armor set]].--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 04:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:There had been about 5-6 pages on "defense", and suggestions and advice on various topics were scattered and repeated across all of them. The first stage of the effort to re-organize them into 4 tightly defined and user-friendly topics using current DF wiki naming conventions has resulted in 4 pages: a General guide and overview (rewrite of [[Defense guide]] article), and 3 new articles on specific design - layout and architecture ([[Defense design]]), traps ([[Trap design]]), and specific advice on organizing your military ([[Military design]]). <br />
:Discussion from any pages removed or renamed will be placed (or linked) under one of those four. Discussion re this re-organization is on the [[Talk:Fortress defense]] page.<br />
::--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
*There is a more specific discussion of the several various (and often redundant) "defense" pages, and possibly combining, rewriting and/or reformatting them, on the [[Talk:Fortress defense]] page. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 05:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:*"Defense" rewrite" rough re-organization completed<br />
<br />
<br />
*There is currently a discussion regarding the general style and philosophy of this wiki, of "what deserves its own page" on the [[Talk:Main Page]]. Any and all are welcome to chime in.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 05:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Request_for_Adminship/Aescula&diff=63821Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Request for Adminship/Aescula2010-02-25T11:03:24Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Oppose */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Administrator Candidacy Questionnaire==<br />
===Why would I be a good Administrator?===<br />
I know I'm not too well known, but I am an avid Wiki-er, wholly believe in the system, and have even created and administrated a small Wiki of my own. Unfortunately, I was not able to keep up hosting payments, and thus cannot show it, as it's been deleted, probably purged from their systems.<br />
<br />
Either way, I know the system, I know the process, I even know a little about the software, both DF's and MediaWiki.<br />
<br />
====Supporting Evidence====<br />
*[[Special:Contributions/Aescula]].<br />
*(As for knowledge of the DF system) [[User:Aescula]]<br />
<br />
==Public Q&A==<br />
*'''Q''': What was your wiki about, and what kinds of things did you do with it (besides contributing content and watching RC) that would make you good as an admin? [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] 11:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
*'''A''': It was an idea that I called "Wikiverse". It thought of it because I have a friend who delights in building worlds, designing races, and so forth, it was designed to allow people to write about and show any other world they would have liked, without having to also think of storylines and dialogue. In that one, I was a primary template-maker, and honestly had enough on my paws with all of the financial issues and technical issues I was having. However, I did learn a good amount about the MediaWiki software, and know how to do things such as identifying and banning spammers, and so forth, and even successfully fended off a troll attack before it could do lasting damage to the target's reputation.--[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 04:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:'''Q''': Great, thanks. Sounds similar to my experience, follup up: Did you have any work on using the wikipedia "qif" template or a similar type of template, or using parser functions? I think there is some opportunity here for organization in this wiki with infoboxes for items and world builder gens, or a lot of other things, and those are often really useful for that kind of work. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] 21:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:'''A''': I remember building text boxes, similar to the ones that we have here for metals, stone, and workshops. Also, I'm one who, while not the most innovative, am very adaptive, and can usually come to understanding a language, like MediaWiki's, over a very small span, and then can work it as needed. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 23:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Public Discussion==<br />
:Discuss things here, yay<br />
==Votes==<br />
===Support===<br />
# '''SUPPORT''': I stand in support of Aesc. I've known her for years, and I can vouch for her determination and, above all else, how much time she has on her hands. She'll make a good admin, because, if nothing else, she can always keep an eye on things. --[[User:Waladil|Waladil]] 13:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
# '''SUPPORT''': Aescula has my support for admin. She's been all sorts of help whenever I hit a snag with DF. I introduced her to the game long ago, and she's taken to it like a fish to water. Already doing things I didn't know possible. Her eagerness to learn, and determination to master would make her as fine an admin as any. She already has much more technical know how with computers that I couldn't even give a proper name to. A vote for Aescula is a vote for (Insert home country here). --[[User:Iaru|Iaru]] 19:21, 23 February 2010 (EST)<br />
# '''SUPPORT''': Would support anyways (as it sounds like she would make a good admin), but mainly im voting to counteract huge sheild calling her a furry with no evidence and voting against her for that. --[[User:Greenmeanie|Greenmeanie]] 08:15, 25 February 2010<br />
:: '''SUPPORT''': Not for Aesc, I already voted in support of her, but for Greenmeanie for helping fight the stupid rumors about furries! <!-- By the way, a "shield" is not the only that he's got that's huge... ego too. Definitely not any of his reproductive organs, though. -->--[[User:Waladil|Waladil]] 10:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Oppose===<br />
# '''OPPOSE''': Candidate said, "had enough on my paws," as we all know, furries ruin everything. --[[User:HugeShield|HugeShield]] 10:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
::If "don't be a dick" isn't a rule here, it should be!<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Neutral===<br />
# '''NEUTRAL'''| blah blah blah here's why signature</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Request_for_Adminship/Bombcar&diff=63649Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Request for Adminship/Bombcar2010-02-23T09:38:54Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Public Discussion */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Administrator Candidacy Questionnaire==<br />
===Why would I be a good Administrator?===<br />
I have time, and am very good at minor edits and finding spam. I also have a thorough knowledge of MediaWiki, MySQL, and Linux (though those may not be as useful), and have Mac OS X experience. I spend almost every waking hour near a computer.<br />
====Supporting Evidence====<br />
*[[Special:Contributions/Bombcar]].<br />
*I added "The shoe is making a plaintive gesture." to [[Scamps]].<br />
*I point the following redirect domains:<br />
**[http://www.dfwiki.net dfwiki.net]<br />
**[http://www.dfwiki.org dfwiki.org]<br />
**[http://www.dfwiki.info dfwiki.info]<br />
<br />
==Public Q&A==<br />
*'''Q''': Example question from a user goes here. Make sure to sign it with --<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>!<br />
*'''A''': Administrator candidate's answer goes here.<br />
<br />
==Public Discussion==<br />
:Discuss things here, yay<br />
Bombcar, sorry but I'm not going to troll through your contribs to see the good outshining the bad.<br />
<br />
Lots of contribs makes you a good editor - not an automatically good admin. where in all that, did you discuss, negotiate, reach agreement with other contributors? Where did you argue points of how a wiki is meant to work to get your change made... or even better, come around and see that the other change made more sense then change the flow of your work to support the newly adopted way that the article/series was headed?<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Votes==<br />
===Support===<br />
# '''SUPPORT''': Blah blah blah, signature<br />
# '''STRONG SUPPORT''': blah blah blah<br />
===Oppose===<br />
# '''OPPOSE''': Blah blah blah, here's why, signature<br />
===Neutral===<br />
# '''NEUTRAL'''| blah blah blah here's why signature</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Request_for_Adminship/Albedo&diff=63457Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Request for Adminship/Albedo2010-02-22T09:58:41Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Support */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Administrator Candidacy Questionnaire==<br />
===Why would I be a good Administrator?===<br />
I just added my name to the list for '''Asst. Admin''' for this site. As a site User, I've tried to support the Admin as best I can, editing with comments, posting links to the Guidelines on over-enthusiastic newbie's pages, stuff like that. I'm active on site most days/week. And if you could see the look on my face, you'd know I'm not over-eager for this, which is a good thing. It's always dangerous to hire people who volunteer, but I have the time and energy, so... why not?<br />
<br />
If you care about "What has Albedo done?", here are some things I'd not blush about if someone were to mention them:<br />
<br />
* Instituted a use for [[current events]] page, where you just read about my application.<br />
<br />
* Complete edit of more articles than I can remember - not "rewrite" (altho' that too), but just re-organizing and formatting what was there and tying it together.<br />
<br />
* Re-organized all the randomly titled design pages into formal "X design" article format.<br />
<br />
* Added the [[Welcome]] template to more newcomers than I can remember.<br />
<br />
* Added more redirects and disambigs than I care to remember (including [[welcome]], among others).<br />
<br />
* Just added all this info to my User page moments before Briess instituted this form. :P<br />
<br />
Meh - In short, I'm active enough and have a decent sense of writing and organization, both for a single article and for a collection of them.<br />
<br />
Vote me. Yay. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
====Supporting Evidence====<br />
[[Special:Contributions/Albedo]]<br />
& more recently: [[Special:Contributions/75.62.155.145]]<br />
<br />
:Link to any articles you are particularly proud of.<br />
<br />
* Conceived of [[vein|veins and clusters]] page, combining many random pages into that one article. My first solo article.<br />
* Re-organized and partially re-wrote the various and scattered "defense" pages ([[Defense guide]], [[Defense design]], [[Military design]], [[Trap design]], and related others) into their current format. See [[Talk:Fortress_defense#Merging_in_other_articles_and_defining_what_this_page_should_be|Talk: Fortress Defense]]for an idea of what it was before. This was a [[demon|bitch]], as it was a complete [[Losing|cluster]] before. Established editing policies in an attempt to never go there again. (Open any of those pages to edit and read <-Notes to editors->), and/or see relevant [[Talk:Defense design|discussion pages]]).<br />
<br />
* Consulting on the Talk pages, conceived and/or wrote or re-wrote the current [[armor]], [[armor piece]], [[weapon]], [[dwarven weapon]] and [[other weapon]] page collection, thus ''removing every single redundant article on every individual weapon and piece of armor in existence.'' Sheesh, as if.<br />
<br />
* Edited, formatted and organized the [[Color schemes]] page so the colors and differences could actually be seen at a glance, and the process understood (even by a newb!).<br />
<br />
* Saw the need, created this tag and implemented its use:<br />
{{Mod}}<br />
<br />
==Public Q&A==<br />
*'''Q''': Example question from a user goes here. Make sure to sign it with --<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>!<br />
*'''A''': Administrator candidate's answer goes here.<br />
<br />
==Public Discussion==<br />
:Discuss things here, yay<br />
<br />
Shaun White kicked. Seriously. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Votes==<br />
===Support===<br />
# '''Strong Support''' --[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 18:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC), great df player, lots of experience, good editing skills, practices the '''be bold''' meme.<br />
# '''Support''' positive contributions to the Wiki --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 16:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
# '''Strong Support''' - Easily one of the best users we have on this wiki. He's dedicated, smart, has a clear direction for the site and has been helping since before I was around. Great choice. [[User:SirPenguin|SirPenguin]] 19:51, 21 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
# '''Strong Support''' As soon as I joined up and started talking around on the wiki, this guy appeared repeatedly. He is intelligent, knows the game, knows the wiki, and seems to know people well too. --Kydo 05:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
# '''Support''' What, you mean.... he wasn't already?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Oppose===<br />
# '''OPPOSE''': Blah blah blah, here's why, signature<br />
<br />
===Neutral===<br />
# '''NEUTRAL'''| blah blah blah here's why signature</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:BaronW&diff=63188User talk:BaronW2010-02-17T11:51:41Z<p>GarrieIrons: </p>
<hr />
<div>This is without doubt the most mind-blowing DF construction I have ever witnessed, good sir. Bravao! [[User:Kelu|Kelu]] 08:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I completely agree, amazing. --[[User:Khelek|Khelek]] 20:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I would love to see a video of it in process. Very nice construction :) ~~<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
How are you planning to input decimal? [[User:Immibis|Immibis]] 02:58, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
Dude, this needs an upload to the map repository and videos of it working. Awesome. Beats megaprojects hands down. I'm bowing right now!<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=File:Nightmare_6x6_v2.jpg&diff=63153File:Nightmare 6x6 v2.jpg2010-02-16T11:28:58Z<p>GarrieIrons: rm {{Image Rules Notice}}. Note that it is ONLY used on the tileset repository page.... ie it is entirely appropriate to NOT use the default tileset.</p>
<hr />
<div>Lord Nightmare's tiny 6x6 character tileset v2</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Category_talk:Utilities&diff=62785Category talk:Utilities2010-02-08T09:22:09Z<p>GarrieIrons: Created page with '==Pending deletion== Is there an easy way to see all the pages in the Utility namespace without going to a special page? ie, something easily navigaged to from the page itself. …'</p>
<hr />
<div>==Pending deletion==<br />
Is there an easy way to see all the pages in the Utility namespace without going to a special page? ie, something easily navigaged to from the page itself.<br />
<br />
If there is not, then maybe the category should stay, '''just''' for ease of navigation (which is the main point of categories anyway).<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:22, 8 February 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page/archive2&diff=62641Talk:Main Page/archive22010-02-07T11:52:48Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Images */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Archive|<br />
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive1|Archive 1]]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
<br />
== World Painter Page ==<br />
The wiki has needed a page on the [[World Painter]] for a while, so I've started one. The information in there is decent, but I'm relatively new to wiki editing, so the formatting probably isn't. If someone wouldn't mind cleaning it up a bit for me I'd really appreciate it. --[[User:Timmeh|Timmeh]] 01:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well I don't know if someone helped you already, but it looks fine to me. --[[User:frandude|frandude]]<br />
:I changed the name into World Painter so it looked better (no more petty redirects!) [[User:Inawarminister|Inawarminister]] 12:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== French language wiki ==<br />
<br />
Can we have interlanguage links with the [http://www.dwarffortress.fr/wiki/ French wiki]? -[[User:Alan Trick|Alan Trick]] 17:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Add a CptnDuck page? ==<br />
<br />
Captain Duck is a DF video tutorial maker, which an impressive collection of 40 videos on youtube (and a few extra videos of sieges and arenas and whatnot), and explains how to do most everything, from magma forges to Dwarven justice. He adds humor to it and he's the reason a lot of people understand the game...I think we should give him a page. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Blackdoggie998|Blackdoggie998]]</small><br />
<br />
:As it is insanely easy for anyone to sign up for editing priviledges on this site (I managed to, after all), I see no need to make one for him when he could make one for himself. However, if you wish to add user:CptnDuck, or invite him to make one himself, feel free. He can link to all of his tutorials from his user page. They even be searchable through that lovely little box to the(my) left. (Who knows where it is on your skin.) -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.<br />
<br />
:P.S. Does it seem odd to you to have it say "unsigned comment by [username]"? Or is that just me? -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, just a little after the previous one.<br />
:: Clicking 'unsigned' gave me all the explanation I need, might want to do the same [[User:Kinzarr|Kinzarr]] 23:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:We don't need a userpage for him, but a page with the assembled listing of all his (and others of equal quality) video tutorials wouldn't be a bad idea at all. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 16:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Articles on Olivine and other generic stones ==<br />
<br />
There is a current discussion as to whether or not [[Olivine]] (and perhaps some few other stones) are duly covered on the current [[stone]] page, or are truly worth having their own article/page. This relates to a larger question of how this wiki is organized, and "What deserves a page" in a general sense. Any interested are encouraged to chime in, if only with a "me too" post pro or con. See [[Talk:Olivine]] for an idea of the issue. I'd like to have the debate move from the specific Olivine page to here since this is a more general issue that affects many potential pages. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 21:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I'm not really sure which way to go on this one. A lot of otherwise useless stones would need their own articles if the guidelines were expanded... and yet, there's a good amount of useful information that's not on the main pages, that would further clutter them if it were added; And permitting more individual pages would solve both those problems. I guess this ends up being a vote both ways, with provisions on each. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 23:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:My vote is, if someone can make it amusing, then sure. If someone is of the bent to enjoy making such a page, then again, sure... otherwise, leave it at the bottom of the pile of "things that someday we might get around to if we feel like it" and don't stress. The relevant data is covered (or will be when someone notices it's not), and everything else is gravy. Beside, what would you rather do, play the game, or figure out how to make a whole page of jokes about how gneiss nice is.... (or did I get that backwards?)... ? --[[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.<br />
<br />
<br />
::All relevant information is covered, yes. But not necessarily on a relevant page. Before the Olivine page was made you couldn't learn that olivine may contain native platinum from any page related to olivine or stone in general. <br />
::Another example is kaolinite. You can look it up in the table of Other Stone to see it can be found in sedimentary rock. But in order to see that it may itself contain alunite and marcasite you have to go through the entire table (or use the browser search function). Now, in order to see if it may contain anything else, you have to notice the note at the top of the page (just above the table of contents) that points to Metal Ore and Gem, whith another two tables you have to search through. (Kaolinite may contain turquoise). --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 21:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:It's not just about "which stones" - it's a larger question of how the wiki is organized and presented. Should each separate and distinct item get its own page, like the current one- or two-line articles on [[vial]]s, [[instrument]]s or [[Restraint|chain]]s, (just as random parallel examples of some [[finished goods]] that have their very own, very short, very dull, and predictably repetitive articles.) Surely the [[Masons guild]] and [[miners guild]] don't deserve or need separate articles. Do we need a separate and largely redundant article for every trap weapon? What about the cookie-cutter articles on ''every'' individual animal? The GCS deserves its own, and many others, but one on each separate type of shark and hunting cat? There is no actual article there, only a template.<br />
<br />
:Quivers and bolts are sub-sections of the [[crossbow]] article, and I think that's a ''great'' call. Olivine, talc and kaolinite are merely similar examples, distinct enough to warrant special treatment, but on the borderline of being so small to each only represent a stub. Ultimately, I don't think a functional formal definition would be easily achieved - rather guidelines and a fuzzy target, combining related info into groups with optimal size limitations (both lower end and upper end). Perhaps a template should not be forced on every lesser example, but they could be grouped into a table on their own article, "other stones of note" or "sharks" or "finished goods" or whatever.<br />
<br />
:In many ways, our only current guidelines are "what has been done so far" - and that varies widely and wildly. Too often, pages are cobbled onto related ones, or split off just because its a new topic, if a brutally short one. Myself, I'd like to see most related articles of less than 4 lines or so get grouped into larger, more universally informative articles, and anything larger than maybe 5 full sub-sections be considered for splitting up. If an item stands out from the rest, it should stand out somewhere, in an article - but that doesn't mean it has to have its very own, or invite every similar item to do so as well.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 03:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Please check out the (no longer) current [[Chalk]] page and tell me what you think. ... which is to say, it doesn't /have/ to be a stub, does it? It can be rich and detailed and sadly unamusing. It would please me to continue to do all stones in this manner, or another manner of your choosing.... Thus negating fussing over "this one was done this way, that one was done that way" arguments. I'll get to them all, in the order they appear on the [[Stones]] page. ... assuming you guys are ok with that. --[[User:Teres Draconis]] 08:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: P.S. Who's the outpost manager of this place, anyways? I'd like to know to whom I should be pandering. --jaz<br />
<br />
::: I think 1) you should take time to read, if not learn the wiki format guidelines, 2) you should sign with your REAL user name, and stop using a pseudonym, and 3) you should not break someone else's post with yours in between their paragraphs. As to the chalk page, I think it's over-enthusiastic and pays no attention to previous article style or formatting precedent - which may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 09:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: 1) You're right, I'm sorry. <br />
::::2) We've discussed user names on [[User_Talk:Teres_Draconis#Naming Conventions|my talks page]]. (Also, <nowiki>~~~</nowiki> still puts "jaz"... why bother with the link when it's just a P.S.?) <br />
::::3) I'm sorry. I was (apparently) trained wrong, and that was a /long/ time ago. I was taught (20 years ago) that when responding, to do so in-line, so that people can tell what the response is actually relating to. (Like an actual conversation, except with a time warp. You say something, I respond, someone else adds, we all move on to the next topic.) It supposedly adds clarity. The style and curtesy rules of such things has changed. I can see I'll need to update myself. Thank you for pointing that out. =)<br />
::::4) I was hasty. I had to have meatspace people explain to me why, as wiki-''writers'', you would not want so much detail on a page. Especially when, with every new game release, any given page on the wiki might need an over haul. I was only looking at it from the end-user perspective of "If I'm looking for information, I don't want a page that just tells me to go look at the three pages I've already looked at. I want a page that reduces the noise of the irrelevant, and distills to just that specific (sub-)topic." I /don't/ see the point of six pages that are identacle except for title, and all only three lines long. If it's got it's own page, it should have it's own page. If it just links back to the three pages that linked to it, and they all link to each other already, what's the point? If the only thing Chalk has going for it is that it's flux, why not just make a note on the [[Stone]] page reading, "These three rocks can be used as flux" and link to the flux page from there? Why should chalk have it's own page, if it's not going to be richly detailed and, you know, informative? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::The templates are there because they are pretty, detailed, and condensed ways to display some key information. Rather than expanding existing information so that it takes up more space, it's more productive to add things that you think are lacking. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: I changed the other [[Stones]] table to allow for interesting minerals that are in other[[Stones]] to be posted.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:What would actually be helpful is a [[Geology]] primer, indicating how layers and inclusions are placed, where, and what the implications of "You have struck XXX" are. I know, now, that if it's olivine, I have a chance of finding veins of native platinum. One good page explaining what all of the geological processes mean would be a lot more useful then all of the various descriptions of exploratory mining. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 22:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
::That sounds like a great idea.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::I agree! But I have no idea how to write it. Most of what I know about geology I learned from looking at the raws. Everything else is "OMG, is that a ''rock''?! I've heard of those!" - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"More useful" to some, but I agree it would be a great addition. Also, the more I think about it, the more I like what MrDG did with the table in Other Stone - tables could condense any and all small, individual articles into single pages w/ (sortable?) tables where all these various similar objects could be compared/contrasted at a glance. Templates are perfect when there is a lot of various info, but if the different topics (semi-generic stones, animals, finished goods) all differ only in one or two details, and there is just not that many variables to begin with, a Table would be (imo) preferable. ''(And imo that table now covers such stones as Olivine well, to get back to the original example that sparked this discussion.)''<br />
<br />
::As an additional example of how current stub-articles could be combined into a simple table, I've made this page - [[Example - some fish]] - which could be a model for such. (A page/table with all the "Sea-creatures" would be more likely approp, but this was faster for now.) It would replace every stub-article on related "generic" items, but any truly noteworthy items would still have their own full articles for expanded information and commentary (here, "carp"). It still has 100% of the prev information, but also allows immediate comparison and contrast, and, if sortable, allows a User to more easily compare relations between similar aspects (like "biome", in this example.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::: Is it possible to put the expandable version of the raw ("game object data (show)" seen at the bottom of the [[carp]] page) inside the table, instead of the whole thing? Or does the one preclude the other? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, if someone finds it easy to extract that information from the .RAWs, I would find that an improvement on what [[Creatures]] currently has. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 17:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::::If someone here knows PHP they may be able to write a new wiki hook that pulls information from raw entries. That would make many things much easier. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:::Which information do you want extracted? I can probably do it for you, but you may have heard, I'm in the doghouse for not paying attention to style and formating rules. =/ Show me what there is, and one example of what you want, and I can probably do it for you with a minimum of stupid questions. ... ''Probably.'' - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::::@ jaz, Dec - Did either of you look at this sample table? [[Example - some fish]] Does that cover what you were envisioning? It's just a rough idea - but it could work the same way that the table on the [[stone]] page currently does, to cover all the generic, almost-identical objects. Same w/ finished goods, weapon traps, probably many other sim categories of like items.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
I've read this sort of. My view is, wikis add value to the game far more for noobs than they do to legends who have been around since when the z-axis was just an idea. With this in mind, I reckon if everything with a name in the game had an article that would be *A Good Thing* (tm). Just my own opinion, feel free to disagree. Ideally, articles for things like stones should contain a template constructed from the raws, with prose/dialogue manually added.<br />
Even things like [[screw pump]] could have a template driven section, advising what the components are / who makes it etc. Maybe <nowiki>{{building|Building Name|Component 1:Component 1 name|Component X| component X name|Constructed by|trade}}</nowiki> or similar.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 08:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree, probably, although that sounds like a lot of work. I think the stone templates and articles could do with a bit of a cleanup and more in-game information. I mostly use the articles to see if there's anything notable about a particular stone and then check out the wikipedia page. Some of the wikipedia links are broken or indirect now because disambiguity pages have been added since. Also, the wikipedia links are right at the bottom of very long boxes listing ores and gems and the like - I suggest adding drop down boxes to the templates that contain all that information but which are minimized by default. Or changing the template so that the wikipedia link wraps around the stone name at the top. --[[User:Harmonica|Harmonica]] 01:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Way late to this party, apologies. Tables are no good (to me) if they aren't sortable. The World Ends With You (a Nintendo DS game) Wikia portal/wiki thing has an ''awesome'' method for adding sortable tables. Some gadget called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki Semantic MediaWiki] that hooks into the Wiki to automatically pull data out as you request it, then display it in easy-to-read and use sortable tables. The TWEWY Wikia has [http://twewy.wikia.com/wiki/The_World_Ends_With_You:Semantic_MediaWiki a page on it] for their editors, giving a few examples of how powerful it is. Their use of the tool is to easily pull information from a table of 304 items, each containing 30 attributes, to generate lists comparing and compiling various items. Hugely powerful, extremely flexible.<br />
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This type of tool would work wonderfully with a PHP RAW parser, or even simple dumps of the RAWs to the Wiki. Think of how easy it would be to update the entire Wiki across the board when new versions come out. New critters? Changes to existing critters? Update the information in one spot and it trickles down through the entire Wiki! That's in addition, of course, to being able to, say, generate tables listing how many bones each creature drops when killed, then sort to see which one drops the most. Pretty sweet stuff.<br />
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With some sort of system in place for wading through all the data on the wiki, one wouldn't have to worry about having too much information, right? -- [[User:Blank|Blank]] 04:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Particularly for stone, I think that it would be a good idea to describe each individual stone relative to other, similar stones. Let's use [[sandstone]] as an example. Suppose that I read (either in its own article, or in a table) something along the lines of "Sandstone is a [[sedimentary]] layer. Unlike most sedimentary layers, it may contain [[aquifers]] or veins of [[native copper]]." If I already know what a sedimentary layer is (and how it differs from other types of layers), this information will be much easier to process and much more useful than a full list of everything that appears in sandstone. If I have no idea what a sedimentary layer is, this will tell me that there are several sedimentary layers and that they all have many things in common, which is again more useful than a list of everything that appears in sandstone. --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 08:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:That's not the way this (any?) wiki is set up. The idea is that a lesser concept (here, "sandstone") need not include redundant info from a larger, parent concept (here, "sedimentary layer"). If you don't know what a sed'y layer is (or an aquifer or a vein or whatever) you click that link. If, then, you don't know what a "layer" is, you click that link. Sounds good at first, but if every lesser article included an explanation, even a quick synopsis, of the info for all relevant articles on broader, umbrella concepts, the articles, and this wiki as a whole, would explode beyond usefulness. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks for making my point for me. If you look at the current sandstone article, it lists everything contained in sandstone. Looking at just the ores and non-generic stones, we have: Native copper, Hematite, Limonite, Magnetite, Native platinum, Tetrahedrite, Bituminous coal, Lignite, Bauxite. All of these except for native copper appear in every sedimentary layer. That's not even counting all of the generic stone (especially gypsum with its five other types of generic stone contained in it) and (mostly low-value) gems. 95% of the text in this article is redundant, and could easily be summarized by "This layer is exactly like every other sedimentary layer except for these two differences". --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 09:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::Ah - ''that's'' your point. (When you said "describe", I thought you were advocating a narrative commentary on and verbal expansion of the info included in the sidebar.) When I was talking about not having redundant info, I was talking text - which is quite terse in this case, exactly because of the point you make. Those sidebars were designed to encapsulate the key info, an "at a glance" sort of thing, to avoid exactly what you're talking about in narrative form. Are the sidebars redundant? Often, yes. But they are the style this wiki has adopted for ''all'' stone. So you're talking not just about changing sed'y layers, but the style approach to all stone, since they would not then be consistent across the board. (Not how I would have personally designed the layout, but it's there and it works, and well. Any stone, same layout, same info in the same place, bam got it.) And when discussing presentation and usability issues, any article has to be taken both individually and in the context of others "like" it - here, any "stone" article is the same layout, the same info at a glance, which (for now) trumps whatever redundancies exist. Perhaps a quick line such as you're stating would go well, since there is, indeed, very little unique to say about any one sub-type of sedimentary layer, and that is info in and of itself. (Take a look at any [[igneous extrusive]] except obsidian for something similar.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 16:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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A lot of people have been talking a lot of things about reorganizing the information on the stones pages. After browsing around on them for a while, I've found the information to be mostly scattered and difficult to draw conclusions from. For example, I wasn't aware that each geographic stone type had a base list of stones that can appear, while only some of them have a couple of unique stones that may appear along with that list. It wasn't until I began gathering all of that data together for myself, that I found the patterns. I had to work to tie it all together. So, I have a partially completed table of pulldown menus on my user page right now. If anyone's interested they could take a look and tell me what they think? (Yes, I know a lot of it is redundant. I have an idea on how to fix this, but I haven't completely decided yet) --Kydo 13:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Not a Roguelike ==<br />
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Dwarf Fortress only resembles a Roguelike in the sense that everything kills you. ASCII graphics haven't connoted Rogue-resemblance since Diablo came out with modern 3D graphics and was still considered a Roguelike.<br />
[[User:LogicalDash|LogicalDash]] 22:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
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I agree with you for Fortress mode, but adventurer mode is rogue like.--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 22:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:DF is rogue-like like.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 08:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
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LogicalDash, Diablo is in 2D, not 3D. --[[User:612DwarfAvenue|612DwarfAvenue]] 05:10, 27 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Link to Add Quotes ==<br />
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To get help on how to add quotes to the main page, consult [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|this]] link.<br />
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== Incoming New Version ==<br />
<br />
Guys. We might as well prepare for the new version that will be coming by the end of the year (maybe). What will need to change? Weapons and armor, the underground stuff... I don't know all of it. But it's extensive. Get ready.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Well, we don't know all the details, and names of jobs/items can change before actual release. [[User:Kurokikaze|Kurokikaze]] 16:14, 8 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:I don't see what this has to do with anything, i guess it's nice of you to tell us. But what do you mean "get ready?"<br />
: Gird your loins, gentlemen. Or something.<br />
::It'll be hard to cover every page - if you edit, try to follow up on links, etc. Might also have to check the "oldest pages" listing to see that they've all been updated (except it's broken atm). The worst currently is that we ''still'' have legacy crap from earlier versions in obscure corners and comments that's not relevant to current version. Bonus.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
:This might be useful: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AT8EQVUjrv96ZGc5cnBwOHZfMjgyY3FzZHFtanA&hl=en<br />
:Are we just changing this wiki? (as opposed to forking with the new version, in case some people keep playing 40d?) [[Special:Contributions/206.45.111.58|206.45.111.58]] 22:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Forking sounds good to me. But I have no idea how well wikis handle forking. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 14:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::In any case I think it would be a good idea to updated articles as is, and not wipe them out like in the wiki's switch to 3d which simply wiped out a lot of good information along with outdated text. Forking is a good route to take if people don't want to lose 40d inforamtion. [[User:Richards|Richards]] 19:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Interwiki ==<br />
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Correct link to Russian DF wiki, please.<br />
Right link = www.dfwk.ru instead current www.dfwiki.ru --[[Special:Contributions/91.192.82.106|91.192.82.106]] 11:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
:It's done, so should we delete this conservation? (not that great at wiki myself) [[User:Inawarminister|Inawarminister]] 09:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Random page ==<br />
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Why is "Random page" only bringing me to "Count Consort"? :\ --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 22:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
:It seems "Random page" is only random daily... Is this intentional? --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 20:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
::There's probably something wrong with your browser cache settings - it works fine for me. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Random images ==<br />
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Where are the images on the main page coming from? It's easy to find the quotes, but where are the images? [[User:MC Dirty|MC Dirty]] 15:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== New Category Idea - Well Known Dwarves ==<br />
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After reading some stories on many of the most awesome dwarfs to show up in this game. (Namely Captain Ironblood, Morul, Tholtig) That a category, perhaps a sub one to Humor and Stories just for Dwarves that are very very clearly above the normal for the already outrageous(ly awesome) game of Dwarf Fortress. However do to the fact this is less on the game mechanics and such, the idea is first here so other's can figure if it's worth having a category. One thing that comes to mind is there really should be some sort of limit to what makes a Dwarf and Epic/Well Known Dwarf so as to prevent people from putting everyone they liked up there rather then the few '''everyone''' likes. Mostly asking as there is a handful of such dwarfs and that number is only going to (slowly) grow. Each said Dwarf I think deserves some sort of noting on a page for my two cents on the topic.<br />
:I definitely thing that this is a great idea in the true spirit of DF.<br />
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== Images ==<br />
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So, what does everyone think? Would it be a good idea to have real-world images (or possibly sketches for fantasy, if applicable) of the following:<br />
* Trees<br />
* Fish<br />
* Land animals<br />
* Weapons and armor<br />
* Stones<br />
* Ores<br />
* Land features (desert, savannah, etc.)<br />
* Gems<br />
* Metals<br />
* Plants<br />
We already have two pages with example images for a [[Pike_(weapon)#Pike|weapon]] and a [[Sandstone|stone]] for example. I find this very nice for visualizing my fortress and what's going on, since I'm not very familiar with many of the distinctions DF makes. I mean, I know what a fish looks like but I haven't got a clue what the difference between a pike and a char is, or a birch and alder, or even bronze and pewter to be honest.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 22:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
:The normal issues with this kind of thing is REAL-WORLD publishers being annoying with copyright. I guess if we can find it from the real-world wiki then there is a good chance it is a public domain image.<br />
:There is no way in the world it would hurt an article to have one of these. Although, for fantasy objects, materials, and creatures, there may well be some discussion about if the "Dragon" should be a European, Oriental, or some other dragon (and so on for the rest).<br />
:<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=How-to&diff=62633How-to2010-02-07T04:43:39Z<p>GarrieIrons: How-to:#REDIRECT Category:Guides</p>
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<div>#REDIRECT [[Category:Guides]]</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:GarrieIrons&diff=56039User:GarrieIrons2009-10-25T07:16:03Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Updates */</p>
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<div>Hey ho, it's me, the same guy as at Wikipedia with the self same imaginative name which is my real one...<br />
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it's also my mailbox name at hotmail.com.<br />
Or [http://twitter.com/garrieirons I'm on twitter].<br />
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I have come here via Vanilla [[Angband]], a real [[roguelike]] [[game]].<br />
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I ran a [[/log|log]] of my early gaming experience and thoughts. I did manage to update it each session or so but have stopped now. Once I can get a settlement over 100 dwarves, producing metal items, and running screw pumps from water or wind power sources I will have another go. <br />
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==Updates==<br />
*31 August 2008: I made my first set of [[plate mail]]. It was [[bronze]] of course but hey metal armour is metal armour!<br />
*3 September 2008: Started a new fortress, "Teskomolin", which has the following features:<br />
**Volcano (picked location for this feature)<br />
**Cave system<br />
**Kobold village with widespread loot<br />
**Cavern<br />
**Brook<br />
**[[Iron man|Iron men]] - yes, several<br />
::Actually beginning play revealed that there are extensive seams of gold, silver, aluminium, and a wide variety of gems. The kobolds are safely on the other side of a chasm (cliffs on both sides with the brook through the middle). This looks like a keeper!<br />
*19 September: Teskomolin is still active. Made my first warhammer, spear, battleaxe, mace due to an abundance of [[silver]]. Hopefully my next wave of immigrants may have some professional soldiers!<br />
* Playing onulbudam, have become a barony with 10 artifacts including usable furniture and a weapon. Legendary craftsmen include masons, weaponsmith, metalsmith, and stone carvers. Created wealth on becoming a barony is 1168404.<br />
===Unusual artifacts===<br />
# [[:Image:Bebmal kirar.png|Bebmal Kirar]] is a door made of [[gazelle]] [[bone]] made by my [[trapper]] in a [[Craftsdwarf's workshop|craftsdwarf's]] [[workshop]].<br />
# [[:Image:Avedbungek Lushutecem.PNG|Avedbungek Lushutecem]] is a [[millstone]] made of [[granite]] by my [[mason]]. It features an image showing my [[dwarf|dwarves]] striking down an [[iron man]]. History of the fortress "Teskomolin" recorded for all time! or until abandonment at any rate...<br />
# iltangbukith Zilirdumatnomal Lek, "Forkedturmoils the Eternal Rough Staff" is a [[bracelet]] made of [[Felsite]] by my [[soap|soapmaker]] in a [[kitchen]]. It features an image showing [[dwarf|dwarves]] speaking and another image of [[dwarf|dwarves]] [[labor|labouring]]. Creating this artifact changed my journeyman soapmaker into a legendary [[stonecrafter]].<br />
<br><br />
<div style="background: black; width: 50em;"><font face="FixedSys" color="#C0C0C0">Garrie is quite pleased about being part of a great project. He has [[on break|played]] little Dwarf Fortress recently. He is exstatic that his brother has had a [[child]] recently. He [[sleep|slept]] in a [[quality|fine]] [[bedroom]] recently. He [[food|ate]] in a nice dining room recently. He has recovered from feeling [[vomit|ill]] and being unable to [[Personality traits#ACHIEVEMENT_STRIVING|work]]. He admired his own [[farm plot|garden]] recently. He has been satisfied at work recently. <br><br>Garrie spends time at other websites related to [http://facebook.com friends] and [http://angband.oook.cz/ angband].<br />
<br />
Garrie likes computer games, working outdoors, and [[dog]]s for their playfulness. When possible, he prefers to consume [[cow|beef]] and [[alcohol|bourbon]]. He absolutely dispises bogans. [[DwarfFortressWiki:Community Portal|He dislikes disorder]].<br><br>Garrie prefers working outdoor and rarely complains about [[rain|inclement weather]]. He often does the first activity that comes to hand but continues with it for waaaay tooo long. He enjoys alcohol but does not rely on it to get through the working day. He is not the [[guard|hardened individual]] that he used to be.</font></div></div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d_Talk:Trap&diff=5585840d Talk:Trap2009-10-23T13:08:41Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* {forbidden} animal corpses */</p>
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<div>== Cage traps clarification ==<br />
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I think I know the answer, but are ANY sort of cages suitable for trapping any kind of invading monster (except those that evade traps altogether, such as kobalds). The page mentions a glass trap catching a colossus, but will that also apply to a rickety wooden trap? I haven't produced any glass. --[[User:RustyMcloon|Rusty Mcloon]] 06:18, 29 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Yes. I've had a bronze colossus trapped in an Ashen Cage before. I don't think creatures care what you trap them in.--[[User:Dadamh|Dadamh]] 14:59, 29 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== cage traps for food ==<br />
Couldn't one generate a mild supplementary food source by putting cage traps out on the map at random? Or create rows of them to catch aggressive creatures that are chasing down a fleeing dwarf. The ability to place them on the surface has some interesting possibilities. [[User:Kefkakrazy|Kefkakrazy]] 04:45, 4 November 2007 (EST)<br />
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: You can really do this with any kind of trap now - I built a 1 tile wide stair/corridor up an exposed cliff face, and as I was concerned about goblins and the like I stonefall-trapped it. Ever since then some of the local wildlife has used it to get up and down the 5 z-level cliff, with predictable and hilarious results. The goats just die, but the marmots are hurled off the cliff face to splatter on the ground below. It's a nice easy meat/leather/fat source, as well as being entertaining "Dwarfy McDwarf cancels reload stone trap - interrupted by (flying) hoary marmot" [[User:Acama|Acama]] 19:48, 20 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==berserk dwarves==<br />
Will berserk dwarves set off pressure plates? Toady mentioned he was going to stop that from happening [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 19:39, 4 November 2007 (EST)<br />
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On a possibly related note, pets CAN set off traps. Although in my experience the pet has to be falling unconscious to do so. [[User:Anonymousphrase|Anonymousphrase]] 22:43, 27 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
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[[image:Pet_setting_off_trap.png]]<br />
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It may also be the case that you can also get pets killed by a trap if they're in the square when a hostile sets off the trap. &mdash;[[User:Chaos|Chaos]] 12:42, 28 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
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==flooding a spiked pit==<br />
Will flooding a spiked pit break or cancel the spike trap? I'd test this, but I don't have the channel dug in yet. --[[User:Xazak|Xazak]] 18:30, 5 November 2007 (EST)<br />
:confirmed that flooding doesn't affect spear/spike traps. [[User:YayTheDwarves|YayTheDwarves]] 17:52, 6 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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I'm pretty sure the "corpse stuck in trap" chance is 50%, according to Toady either on IRC or some forgotten forum post a few months back. I really can't remember for sure. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:31, 10 November 2007 (EST)<br />
:Do spike traps stop functioning if a corpse gets stuck in them, or can you just retract and continue using as usual? [[User:Gairabad|Gairabad]] 13:11, 9 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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==cage traps/ fire imps==<br />
I've secured the entries oy my magma furnaces with cage traps, but it seems that the fire imps just walk through.<br />
Just as the Giant moles did. How so? --[[User:Doub|Doub]]<br />
:supposedly there is a bug that causes any creatures on the map when it is generated to count as residents, and thus know where your traps are and not trigger them. I've never run into the problem myself, but I've never specifically tested for it so I can't really say for sure if it still exists (or ever did). --[[User:BurnedToast|BurnedToast]] 07:41, 6 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:I had read about this and tried it out with a trapped coridoor next to my magma vent - an imp I tempted out walked right through 4 cage traps and 4 stonefall traps without triggering them. Seems like indigenous life is currently trap-immune. Most magma creatures can be dealt with by a few marksdwarves though, so you're only in serious trouble if you have a herd of skeletal hippos on your map on embark.--[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 15:42, 19 January 2008 (EST)<br />
::There's always the menacing spike + lever combo. And pits. [[User:Benitosimies|Benitosimies]] 16:08, 10 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
::I've killed fire imps and magmamen with stone fall traps --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 01:20, 19 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I've caught native fire imps in cage traps loaded with green glass terrariums. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 21:42, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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==Trolls and Cages==<br />
I'm planning on making the only passage to my fortress filled with cage traps, but I'm not sure if dwarves going out and migrants and traders coming in will be affected by them. Does anyone know? Also, do trolls smash goblin cages? [[User:Patarak|Patarak]] 21:41, 23 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:Only hostile units will trigger traps. Trolls only smash buildings and after a goblin is captured the cage is not built. So the answer to your second question is no. --[[User:Karlito|Karlito]] 21:45, 23 January 2008 (EST)<br />
::Make sure to forbid the traps when the siege starts. Otherwise your dwarves will rush out to reload them and store all the cages. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 22:53, 23 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Thieves and trap avoidance==<br />
Is it possible that Kobold thieves/Goblin master thieves can also trigger traps? I think I killed one and caged another master thief in the past. Maybe the quality of the mechanism is important here? --[[User:Qwertyu|Qwertyu]] 13:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC+1)<br />
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:goblin thieves, both regular and master, have always triggered traps -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 14:18, 17 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::So why does the article then say "Sneaking enemies do not trigger traps"? Goblin master thieves seem very sneaky to me. --[[User:Qwertyu|Qwertyu]] 20:33 17 March 2008 (UTC+1)<br />
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:::once goblin thieves are revealed they are captured fine. even revealed kobolds dont trigger. -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 15:45, 17 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::: At least "normal" goblin thieves are scewered fine without being detected, says my weapon trap --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 16:58, 17 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::: I have to agree with Koltom, I got an "Ambush" event when a goblin (master) thief went into a cage trap, and had another one cut to pieces by a serrated disc, which I only noticed when suddenly all my dwarves rushed off to remove his clothes. --[[User Quertyu|Qwertyu]] 13:31 (UTC+1)<br />
:::: Weapon traps apparently have a chance of friendly fire. At least, that's what the ghost of my Kitten(tame) told me... [[User:QMarx|QMarx]] 18:48, 13 April 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::: I think traps have a chance to trigger against theives, not an absolute yes or no. Also, remember that a citizen going unconscious on a trap will trigger it. The reason animals do so is because they ignore traffic designations, of which I presume traps create an invisible 'no sleep' tile. I've tested locking a dwarf in a room where the entire floor space was covered with traps, they starved to death before sleeping on the traps. However, if a dwarf is knocked unconscious by fighting or a bridge, then they will still trigger traps. [[User:Sensei|Sensei: Last seen somewhere in the Basic Jungle of Terror]] 23:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crossbow Trap? ==<br />
<br />
How does a crossbow trap work? Does it have line of sight, like a Dwarf? <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Lordmick134|Lordmick134]]</small><br />
<br />
Ranged weapons in weapon traps work much the same as melee weapons do, attacking the creature which triggered the trap. The only real difference in functionality seems to be that they require and use up appropriate ammunition, and (according to the article) do not get occasionally stuck and need cleaning like melee weapons in a weapon trap do. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 21:31, 28 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
How much ammo gets loaded into a crossbow trap? I have 10 individual bolts in one and a stack of 39 in another. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 09:48, 24 November 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I assume they load it with whatever stack is close at hand. They'd probably load it with a 1-er if you don't forbid used ammo.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 12:07, 24 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Trapping cave dwellers ==<br />
<br />
Has anyone sucessfully caged a cave dwelling megabeast? I have tried on two seperate maps to capture a minotaur and an ettin, both times the monster just run right through the cage traps. Perhaps creatures that are spawned on embark are bugged immune to traps?<br />
<br />
as said above, some creatures that spawn on the map dont seem to be caught in traps. however, i successfully caught and with the dugeon master, tamed, a giant cave spider that was living in my chasm. I designated it as available for a pet. a legendary engraver adopted it, so i drafted him and am training him up now. hopefully the giant cave spider that now follows him everywhere will be happy to defend its owner against goblins. megabeasts that spawn and attack you can be caged, in fact, its the easiest way by far to deal with them. some, like dragons can then be tamed. im assuming your etin and minotaur fall under the aforementioned bug... try a later game version. --[[User:FruityBix|FruityBix]] 13:04, 20 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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==Weapon Trap Jamming==<br />
The page says crossbow weapon traps don't jam, but what about a trap with a crossbow and a melee weapon? Does the crossbow still fire if the trap jams? Or does a trap have to be pure crossbows to avoid jamming? --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 01:21, 19 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Well, it jams in my experience as of 40d, I tried mixed trap, when something jams, the whole trap stops [[User:TettyNullus|TettyNullus]] 18:26, 30 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Trap betrayals? ==<br />
<br />
Has anyone else been betrayed by their own traps? I had a dog and a crossbowman killed by weapons traps. Serrated iron disks ripped through their bodies like the bloody tusks of enraged elephants.<br />
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Correction. A dog, a crossbowman, and a miner. Will the slaughter never end?--[[User:Amenos42|Amenos42]] 12:08, 30 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
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I've noticed that traps tend to fire on people/animals with injuries. They've killed lots of 3 legged dogs for me, and a soldier that was dragging himself off the field.<br />
<br />
: Traps will (also) trip for any and all unconscious individuals. That may be or be one of the reasons. [[User:Drawf irons|Drawf irons]] 20:53, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Does that include dead individuals? And is it possible to get my dead dog out of his cage? --[[User:Groveller|Groveller]] 01:32, 14 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::Mark it for dumping? That's usually the solution as to how to get anything out of anywhere! --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 09:34, 16 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Cage Trap Question ==<br />
<br />
I recently received the message that there was a goblin snatcher in my fortress. It zoomed the page to one of the 3 cage traps. I took the game off pause and it gave me the same message again. Now I have two cave traps sprung, and when I press "k" and go over them, one says : "goblin cage (Larch)" and the other says "Goblin cage(nickel)". Does this mean I have successfully caught the scoundrels? Or are they still at large?<br />
<br />
:If there is a flashing 'g' then yes, if no than It could be possibly a bug.[[User:Hoborobo|Hoborobo]] 08:25, 10 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Goblin Cage(Material) is usually a good indication that you've caught them. In fact, the "____" cage (Material) is a name that's given when something occupies the cage, I believe, so it definitely means the Goblin is trapped inside, as otherwise it would simply be a "Larch Cage". [[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 06:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Stone Fall Update: Watch Out!! ==<br />
<br />
This is as of release '''0.28.181.39f''': in the past hour I saw two of my own dwarves - both normal healthy members of society - get killed in two different stone fall traps I'd had set up. Clearly, the old rule that dwarves are immune to their own traps is no longer entirely accurate...unless there's a bug going on here? Has anyone else fallen prey to this occurrence? [[User:Grand marquis|Grand marquis]] 06:31, 16 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:See two sections up. :P Anything unconscious will trigger traps currently - did those dwarves fall asleep on the trap square maybe? I've changed the section on triggering traps, so it gives at least a little hint that backfiring is now possible! --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 09:33, 16 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Room of Spiky Death ==<br />
Alright, after a long, long time, I finally got myself a gross(144) of menacing green glass spikes. I'm planning to put them in airlock area of my castle, so that I can trap the goblins who have been annoying me and spike them to death. Each trap will use ten spikes, and there are 14 of them. There's an animal planted as bait, and once I raise both draw bridges, there's no way out. Can anyone tell me if there is something I should know before embarking on this death spree? -[[User:Cypress|Cypress]] 14:47, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Yes. Be prepared for blood. lots and lots of blood. also, it will be awesome.--[[User:Jackrabbit|Jackrabbit]] 00:56, 15 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Stop dwarves from automaticaly cleaning traps and getting killed. ==<br />
<br />
its in the title. first big siege comes in, hits the first line of traps in my entry hall of death, and then half the fortress runs out en mass to clean them, getting killed by the goblins in front and the ballista bolts from behind. they also block my military from getting past. this is agonizing! children, peasants, legendary craftsdwarves and nobles all are susceptible. aaaaarrrrrrggh! --[[User:FruityBix|FruityBix]] 17:35 30 September 2008 UTC<br />
:Lock the doors. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 22:49, 20 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Forbid the traps, at least until the siege is over. --[[User:Smartmo|Smartmo]] 17:20, 6 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Build the traps well outside (removing the roof and rebuilding with blocks still counts as "outside"), and forbid your dwarves to go out. [[User:Qwertyu|Qwertyu]] 12:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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I'm having a similar problem with this, they dont want to clean the traps anymore, oh no, they want to clean the damned splatters of blood off the walls after! luckily my fortress entrance is so convoluted that it takes a full day to traverse it, but It could become a problem in the future. [[User:Heliman|Heliman]] 11:16, 16 May 2009 (EST)<br />
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== Caged Creatures and Loot ==<br />
<br />
''In this case remove the poor fellow using the goblin's inventory screen.''<br />
<br />
I just caught my first goblin in my outer line of defenses! It wasn't even complete yet. *dances* Only, I can't seem to access the bugger's inventory screen. How get his goods off him without killing him? --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 04:12, 7 November 2008 (EST)<br />
:Mark the bag (or whatever) he's holding for dumping via the stocks screen. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 09:29, 7 November 2008 (EST)<br />
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<br />
== weapon trap ==<br />
<br />
anyone got a good combo for a weapon trap setup? I have magma so my last line of defense is a 3x3 grid of serrated green glass disk weapon traps- with ten each. It is generally a one-hit-kill, if they make it past my cage trap field. Anyway, share some good weapon combos here. Good meaning easily producible yet deadly, or really effective.--[[User:Destor|Destor]] 00:47, 5 December 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
: Bone crossbows trap, nuff said, all you need are some stones, and breeding pairs, and off ya go. Might be a bit high-maintance, but it never jams, and as long as you still have animals and stone around, you can make more of 'em, and fill 'em with just animals. -- [[User:TettyNullus|TettyNullus]] 01:46, 8 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I tend to do 2-3 of whatever weapon I've got on hand per trap. This is usually either glass weapons that I've been making to train a glassmaker or silver or copper weapons that I've been training a weaponsmith on. Weapon traps reset quickly between attacks, so a line of 2- or 3-weapon traps 3-4 deep is usually plenty. And why go through the trouble of reloading traps just to avoid an occasional jam? Save your bone bolts for training marksdwarves. IMO.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 23:07, 8 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Metal tend to be in short supply in early fortresses, and those with lack of wood to burn through. Beside the jamlessness is just a bonus, nicely balanced by the difficulity of keeping it supplied. Breeding pairs of animals are cheap and counts as renewable resource, they provides food, leather and bone, as long as there're enough breeding pairs to keep going. Animal husbandery can be slightly complicated with a -lot- of animals but the benefit is you have armour, weapon and food resource no matter where you go ( And as long as there're enough of 'em to breed ). It's really more player preference and avaliable resources so YMMV! (Plus last I recall, the only weapons that can be made with bones are crossbows, at least in vanilla DF using dwarves, correct me if I'm wrong, since some maps don't have woods. And some don't have stones but at least you can arm your guys with bone and leather equipments) -- [[User:TettyNullus|TettyNullus]] 01:30, 10 December 2008 (EST) ed: forget to say that I've had sieges big enough to run through 5 deep of fully loaded glass disc traps, that'd be stopped almost completelly by fully loaded crossbow traps with even bone bolts, but maybe I've just been lucky.<br />
<br />
== Dwarven Flame Belcher ==<br />
<br />
I'm modding DF to support a flamethrower trap component, and I was wondering whether 'charcoal' is an acceptable ammunition. More specifically, I'm curious what the proper name for refined coal is.<br />
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[ITEM_TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_FLAMEBELCHER]<br />
[NAME:flame belcher:flame belchers]<br />
[ADJECTIVE:dwarven]<br />
[DAMAGE:100:HEAT]<br />
[WEIGHT:200]<br />
[HITS:1]<br />
[CRITBOOST:1]<br />
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]<br />
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:CHARCOAL]<br />
[METAL]<br />
<br />
It's designated as a crossbow because I don' know if RANGED will work without a skill. And so crossbow users in adventure mode can have fun. --[[User:RaguCat|RaguCat]] 14:13, 11 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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:If you wanted to be really awesome, you'd have Naptha produceable at an alchemists, and use Naptha as fuel. I suppose you could have Naptha be made from coke and soap, although really you'd need some oil too... but adding oil to the game sounds complicated. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 15:06, 11 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Do you mean napalm?--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 20:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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: Refined coal is [[coke]] in the game. Whiskey is a nice burny liquid your dwarves know how to make, but it's wasted on goblins. --[[User:Jellyfishgreen|Jellyfishgreen]] 19:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Spike Trap hit falling goblin ==<br />
<br />
I had a spike trap surrounded by walls that I would drop gobbos on from 6 z-levels above; the idea was to stun them and then have a dwarf grind them to death. However, the first goblin I dropped died on impact (previous goblins did not) and got stuck in the spike trap. The trap wasn't being operated at the time. Has spike impact been added? --[[User:LucienSadi|LucienSadi]] 18:22, 22 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Friendlies ''completely'' immune to traps? ==<br />
<br />
Unless I'm mistaken, except in a few cases, friendlies are immune to traps; if a friendly unit is on the same tile as a trap and an enemy triggers the trap only the enemy will get hurt. Right? --[[User:Xonara|Xonara]] 01:24, 4 January 2009 (EST)<br />
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Well it depends, if the trap in question is a spike trap, it will not discriminate between friend or foe, otherwise a trap shouldn't harm any conscious ally--[[User:Heliman|Heliman]] 2:12, May 17 2009 (EST)<br />
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== Traps + Caravans = very bad ==<br />
<br />
Today, I had an elven caravan run into my weapon traps... they all died... this may be because they were wounded from goblin ambush but it is still kind of weird, is this a bug? or is it supposed to happen?<br />
<br />
Correction: happened twice, first the elven, then a human caravan was ambushed and the same thing happened when they tried to flee to my fortress<br />
<br />
:Friendly units can be caught in traps if they lose consciousness, which would usually be due to wounds. Although it could also happen if a dwarf with no bed happened to go to sleep on a trapped tile. --[[User:FunkyWaltDogg|FunkyWaltDogg]] 05:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: Um, isn't there a "panic" mode that will let any creatures trigger traps? Like kobold thieves can be caught by a trap after they ve been detected and run off? Maybe the same goes for chased traders. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 23:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Caged Dwarfs not immortal ==<br />
<br />
So the bit about trapping berserk ones instead of killing them needs to be updated out of existence. I fiddeled with a rewrite where in I tried to say it myself, but I'm not very good, so I didn't post it.<br />
<br />
== Stonefall traps not being reloaded?==<br />
I don't know what is going on, but in my game, some of the stonefall traps don't seem to get reloaded since they show a whole bunch of stone on top of it which blinks as it should when icons are on top of each other, however, I'm not sure if this is normal or not.--[[User:Smjjames|Smjjames]] 21:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Sure they reload them, just not with the same stone. Because dwarves are stupid like that. I just dump the excess stones once they get annoying enough. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 23:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: Apparently so. Anyways, it was looking like the stones were actually blocking the traps from working right, so I cleared them anyway. Those goblin seiges are pretty skittish, once they take a few casualties from my traps, they run like chickens.--[[User:Smjjames|Smjjames]] 01:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: It seems that when dwarves are assigned a job to load a trap, they will pick up stone closest to their current location, not closest to trap. --[[User:Denspb|Denspb]] 18:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Cage trap bug ==<br />
<br />
recently I caught about 15 goblins in a siege so I decided to drop them in my volcano to prove a point to the rest. Well I dropped them in and then I noticed that one of my cage traps was smoking and that there was everything that a goblin bowmen would where in it. So after a couple of minutes I had gotten a screw pump ready to try and get rid of the smoke when my game crashed then I tried it again and the exact same thing happened. Im pretty sure that this is a bug but I cant be sure.--[[User:Cerol The Elf Hunter|Cerol The Elf Hunter]] 00:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== disposing of trapped hostiles ==<br />
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What is the safest/easiest way to empty cages? TIA <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Build a drowning room that you can fill with a screw pump / floodgate connected to river, build the cages in there, link a lever to the cages, close and forbid the door of the drowning room, pull the lever.<br />
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Other ways are more risky, but can also be more fun ;)<br />
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--[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 13:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Human ambushers trap-immune? ==<br />
<br />
In 28.181.40d it seems that the humans that come with the goblin ambushes walk past my traps without setting them off, luckily they usually flee when their goblin friends follow them and are killed by the traps. Do humans have some sort of trap-evasion now too or (more likely) do human ambushers also benefit from that "not affected by traps their diplomats have seen" thing that human sieges get?<br />
--[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 07:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Update: seems like it really is caused by the human diplomats seeing the traps... another ambush, the human walked past all the traps just fine until he hit a weapon trap that I constructed after the last caravan already left. I'm now building special trap-filled, pet-baited corridors with doors in front so the filthy spies can't see them.--[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 12:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hmm, now an elf leading a goblin ambush walked past traps too... not sure what to make of this --[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 14:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== {forbidden} animal corpses ==<br />
<br />
when elephants are getting killed by my weapon traps (which IMO are being a great way to train my forest gulag woodcutter/carpenter/mechanic Corps of Engineers) the corpse is {forbidden}. Which means perfectly good meat/skin going to waste.<br />
<br />
Is there a way to make dead meat not be auto-forbidden?? Might be worth putting in there somewhere??<br />
I've already got one friendly herd of elephants so don't need to cage-trap any more thanks!<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:Try (O)rders (F)orbid to find the right menu. Most of us consider auto-forbidding corpses a feature - it stops foolhardy peasants from running into goblin attackers to loot the corpse of a recently slain one. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 14:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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::Thanks, now I know how the feature works I will be able to toggle it on/off as needed.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 13:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d_Talk:Trap&diff=5578740d Talk:Trap2009-10-22T10:50:07Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* {forbidden} animal corpses */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>== Cage traps clarification ==<br />
<br />
I think I know the answer, but are ANY sort of cages suitable for trapping any kind of invading monster (except those that evade traps altogether, such as kobalds). The page mentions a glass trap catching a colossus, but will that also apply to a rickety wooden trap? I haven't produced any glass. --[[User:RustyMcloon|Rusty Mcloon]] 06:18, 29 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Yes. I've had a bronze colossus trapped in an Ashen Cage before. I don't think creatures care what you trap them in.--[[User:Dadamh|Dadamh]] 14:59, 29 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== cage traps for food ==<br />
Couldn't one generate a mild supplementary food source by putting cage traps out on the map at random? Or create rows of them to catch aggressive creatures that are chasing down a fleeing dwarf. The ability to place them on the surface has some interesting possibilities. [[User:Kefkakrazy|Kefkakrazy]] 04:45, 4 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
: You can really do this with any kind of trap now - I built a 1 tile wide stair/corridor up an exposed cliff face, and as I was concerned about goblins and the like I stonefall-trapped it. Ever since then some of the local wildlife has used it to get up and down the 5 z-level cliff, with predictable and hilarious results. The goats just die, but the marmots are hurled off the cliff face to splatter on the ground below. It's a nice easy meat/leather/fat source, as well as being entertaining "Dwarfy McDwarf cancels reload stone trap - interrupted by (flying) hoary marmot" [[User:Acama|Acama]] 19:48, 20 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==berserk dwarves==<br />
Will berserk dwarves set off pressure plates? Toady mentioned he was going to stop that from happening [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 19:39, 4 November 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
On a possibly related note, pets CAN set off traps. Although in my experience the pet has to be falling unconscious to do so. [[User:Anonymousphrase|Anonymousphrase]] 22:43, 27 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
[[image:Pet_setting_off_trap.png]]<br />
<br />
It may also be the case that you can also get pets killed by a trap if they're in the square when a hostile sets off the trap. &mdash;[[User:Chaos|Chaos]] 12:42, 28 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==flooding a spiked pit==<br />
Will flooding a spiked pit break or cancel the spike trap? I'd test this, but I don't have the channel dug in yet. --[[User:Xazak|Xazak]] 18:30, 5 November 2007 (EST)<br />
:confirmed that flooding doesn't affect spear/spike traps. [[User:YayTheDwarves|YayTheDwarves]] 17:52, 6 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
I'm pretty sure the "corpse stuck in trap" chance is 50%, according to Toady either on IRC or some forgotten forum post a few months back. I really can't remember for sure. -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:31, 10 November 2007 (EST)<br />
:Do spike traps stop functioning if a corpse gets stuck in them, or can you just retract and continue using as usual? [[User:Gairabad|Gairabad]] 13:11, 9 December 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
==cage traps/ fire imps==<br />
I've secured the entries oy my magma furnaces with cage traps, but it seems that the fire imps just walk through.<br />
Just as the Giant moles did. How so? --[[User:Doub|Doub]]<br />
:supposedly there is a bug that causes any creatures on the map when it is generated to count as residents, and thus know where your traps are and not trigger them. I've never run into the problem myself, but I've never specifically tested for it so I can't really say for sure if it still exists (or ever did). --[[User:BurnedToast|BurnedToast]] 07:41, 6 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:I had read about this and tried it out with a trapped coridoor next to my magma vent - an imp I tempted out walked right through 4 cage traps and 4 stonefall traps without triggering them. Seems like indigenous life is currently trap-immune. Most magma creatures can be dealt with by a few marksdwarves though, so you're only in serious trouble if you have a herd of skeletal hippos on your map on embark.--[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 15:42, 19 January 2008 (EST)<br />
::There's always the menacing spike + lever combo. And pits. [[User:Benitosimies|Benitosimies]] 16:08, 10 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
::I've killed fire imps and magmamen with stone fall traps --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 01:20, 19 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I've caught native fire imps in cage traps loaded with green glass terrariums. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 21:42, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Trolls and Cages==<br />
I'm planning on making the only passage to my fortress filled with cage traps, but I'm not sure if dwarves going out and migrants and traders coming in will be affected by them. Does anyone know? Also, do trolls smash goblin cages? [[User:Patarak|Patarak]] 21:41, 23 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:Only hostile units will trigger traps. Trolls only smash buildings and after a goblin is captured the cage is not built. So the answer to your second question is no. --[[User:Karlito|Karlito]] 21:45, 23 January 2008 (EST)<br />
::Make sure to forbid the traps when the siege starts. Otherwise your dwarves will rush out to reload them and store all the cages. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 22:53, 23 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Thieves and trap avoidance==<br />
Is it possible that Kobold thieves/Goblin master thieves can also trigger traps? I think I killed one and caged another master thief in the past. Maybe the quality of the mechanism is important here? --[[User:Qwertyu|Qwertyu]] 13:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC+1)<br />
<br />
:goblin thieves, both regular and master, have always triggered traps -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 14:18, 17 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::So why does the article then say "Sneaking enemies do not trigger traps"? Goblin master thieves seem very sneaky to me. --[[User:Qwertyu|Qwertyu]] 20:33 17 March 2008 (UTC+1)<br />
<br />
:::once goblin thieves are revealed they are captured fine. even revealed kobolds dont trigger. -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 15:45, 17 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::: At least "normal" goblin thieves are scewered fine without being detected, says my weapon trap --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 16:58, 17 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::: I have to agree with Koltom, I got an "Ambush" event when a goblin (master) thief went into a cage trap, and had another one cut to pieces by a serrated disc, which I only noticed when suddenly all my dwarves rushed off to remove his clothes. --[[User Quertyu|Qwertyu]] 13:31 (UTC+1)<br />
:::: Weapon traps apparently have a chance of friendly fire. At least, that's what the ghost of my Kitten(tame) told me... [[User:QMarx|QMarx]] 18:48, 13 April 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::: I think traps have a chance to trigger against theives, not an absolute yes or no. Also, remember that a citizen going unconscious on a trap will trigger it. The reason animals do so is because they ignore traffic designations, of which I presume traps create an invisible 'no sleep' tile. I've tested locking a dwarf in a room where the entire floor space was covered with traps, they starved to death before sleeping on the traps. However, if a dwarf is knocked unconscious by fighting or a bridge, then they will still trigger traps. [[User:Sensei|Sensei: Last seen somewhere in the Basic Jungle of Terror]] 23:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crossbow Trap? ==<br />
<br />
How does a crossbow trap work? Does it have line of sight, like a Dwarf? <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Lordmick134|Lordmick134]]</small><br />
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Ranged weapons in weapon traps work much the same as melee weapons do, attacking the creature which triggered the trap. The only real difference in functionality seems to be that they require and use up appropriate ammunition, and (according to the article) do not get occasionally stuck and need cleaning like melee weapons in a weapon trap do. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 21:31, 28 March 2008 (EDT)<br />
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How much ammo gets loaded into a crossbow trap? I have 10 individual bolts in one and a stack of 39 in another. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 09:48, 24 November 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I assume they load it with whatever stack is close at hand. They'd probably load it with a 1-er if you don't forbid used ammo.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 12:07, 24 November 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Trapping cave dwellers ==<br />
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Has anyone sucessfully caged a cave dwelling megabeast? I have tried on two seperate maps to capture a minotaur and an ettin, both times the monster just run right through the cage traps. Perhaps creatures that are spawned on embark are bugged immune to traps?<br />
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as said above, some creatures that spawn on the map dont seem to be caught in traps. however, i successfully caught and with the dugeon master, tamed, a giant cave spider that was living in my chasm. I designated it as available for a pet. a legendary engraver adopted it, so i drafted him and am training him up now. hopefully the giant cave spider that now follows him everywhere will be happy to defend its owner against goblins. megabeasts that spawn and attack you can be caged, in fact, its the easiest way by far to deal with them. some, like dragons can then be tamed. im assuming your etin and minotaur fall under the aforementioned bug... try a later game version. --[[User:FruityBix|FruityBix]] 13:04, 20 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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==Weapon Trap Jamming==<br />
The page says crossbow weapon traps don't jam, but what about a trap with a crossbow and a melee weapon? Does the crossbow still fire if the trap jams? Or does a trap have to be pure crossbows to avoid jamming? --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 01:21, 19 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Well, it jams in my experience as of 40d, I tried mixed trap, when something jams, the whole trap stops [[User:TettyNullus|TettyNullus]] 18:26, 30 November 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Trap betrayals? ==<br />
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Has anyone else been betrayed by their own traps? I had a dog and a crossbowman killed by weapons traps. Serrated iron disks ripped through their bodies like the bloody tusks of enraged elephants.<br />
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Correction. A dog, a crossbowman, and a miner. Will the slaughter never end?--[[User:Amenos42|Amenos42]] 12:08, 30 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
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I've noticed that traps tend to fire on people/animals with injuries. They've killed lots of 3 legged dogs for me, and a soldier that was dragging himself off the field.<br />
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: Traps will (also) trip for any and all unconscious individuals. That may be or be one of the reasons. [[User:Drawf irons|Drawf irons]] 20:53, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::Does that include dead individuals? And is it possible to get my dead dog out of his cage? --[[User:Groveller|Groveller]] 01:32, 14 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::Mark it for dumping? That's usually the solution as to how to get anything out of anywhere! --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 09:34, 16 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Cage Trap Question ==<br />
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I recently received the message that there was a goblin snatcher in my fortress. It zoomed the page to one of the 3 cage traps. I took the game off pause and it gave me the same message again. Now I have two cave traps sprung, and when I press "k" and go over them, one says : "goblin cage (Larch)" and the other says "Goblin cage(nickel)". Does this mean I have successfully caught the scoundrels? Or are they still at large?<br />
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:If there is a flashing 'g' then yes, if no than It could be possibly a bug.[[User:Hoborobo|Hoborobo]] 08:25, 10 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Goblin Cage(Material) is usually a good indication that you've caught them. In fact, the "____" cage (Material) is a name that's given when something occupies the cage, I believe, so it definitely means the Goblin is trapped inside, as otherwise it would simply be a "Larch Cage". [[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 06:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Stone Fall Update: Watch Out!! ==<br />
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This is as of release '''0.28.181.39f''': in the past hour I saw two of my own dwarves - both normal healthy members of society - get killed in two different stone fall traps I'd had set up. Clearly, the old rule that dwarves are immune to their own traps is no longer entirely accurate...unless there's a bug going on here? Has anyone else fallen prey to this occurrence? [[User:Grand marquis|Grand marquis]] 06:31, 16 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:See two sections up. :P Anything unconscious will trigger traps currently - did those dwarves fall asleep on the trap square maybe? I've changed the section on triggering traps, so it gives at least a little hint that backfiring is now possible! --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 09:33, 16 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Room of Spiky Death ==<br />
Alright, after a long, long time, I finally got myself a gross(144) of menacing green glass spikes. I'm planning to put them in airlock area of my castle, so that I can trap the goblins who have been annoying me and spike them to death. Each trap will use ten spikes, and there are 14 of them. There's an animal planted as bait, and once I raise both draw bridges, there's no way out. Can anyone tell me if there is something I should know before embarking on this death spree? -[[User:Cypress|Cypress]] 14:47, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Yes. Be prepared for blood. lots and lots of blood. also, it will be awesome.--[[User:Jackrabbit|Jackrabbit]] 00:56, 15 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Stop dwarves from automaticaly cleaning traps and getting killed. ==<br />
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its in the title. first big siege comes in, hits the first line of traps in my entry hall of death, and then half the fortress runs out en mass to clean them, getting killed by the goblins in front and the ballista bolts from behind. they also block my military from getting past. this is agonizing! children, peasants, legendary craftsdwarves and nobles all are susceptible. aaaaarrrrrrggh! --[[User:FruityBix|FruityBix]] 17:35 30 September 2008 UTC<br />
:Lock the doors. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 22:49, 20 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Forbid the traps, at least until the siege is over. --[[User:Smartmo|Smartmo]] 17:20, 6 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Build the traps well outside (removing the roof and rebuilding with blocks still counts as "outside"), and forbid your dwarves to go out. [[User:Qwertyu|Qwertyu]] 12:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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I'm having a similar problem with this, they dont want to clean the traps anymore, oh no, they want to clean the damned splatters of blood off the walls after! luckily my fortress entrance is so convoluted that it takes a full day to traverse it, but It could become a problem in the future. [[User:Heliman|Heliman]] 11:16, 16 May 2009 (EST)<br />
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== Caged Creatures and Loot ==<br />
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''In this case remove the poor fellow using the goblin's inventory screen.''<br />
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I just caught my first goblin in my outer line of defenses! It wasn't even complete yet. *dances* Only, I can't seem to access the bugger's inventory screen. How get his goods off him without killing him? --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 04:12, 7 November 2008 (EST)<br />
:Mark the bag (or whatever) he's holding for dumping via the stocks screen. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 09:29, 7 November 2008 (EST)<br />
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== weapon trap ==<br />
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anyone got a good combo for a weapon trap setup? I have magma so my last line of defense is a 3x3 grid of serrated green glass disk weapon traps- with ten each. It is generally a one-hit-kill, if they make it past my cage trap field. Anyway, share some good weapon combos here. Good meaning easily producible yet deadly, or really effective.--[[User:Destor|Destor]] 00:47, 5 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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: Bone crossbows trap, nuff said, all you need are some stones, and breeding pairs, and off ya go. Might be a bit high-maintance, but it never jams, and as long as you still have animals and stone around, you can make more of 'em, and fill 'em with just animals. -- [[User:TettyNullus|TettyNullus]] 01:46, 8 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I tend to do 2-3 of whatever weapon I've got on hand per trap. This is usually either glass weapons that I've been making to train a glassmaker or silver or copper weapons that I've been training a weaponsmith on. Weapon traps reset quickly between attacks, so a line of 2- or 3-weapon traps 3-4 deep is usually plenty. And why go through the trouble of reloading traps just to avoid an occasional jam? Save your bone bolts for training marksdwarves. IMO.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 23:07, 8 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Metal tend to be in short supply in early fortresses, and those with lack of wood to burn through. Beside the jamlessness is just a bonus, nicely balanced by the difficulity of keeping it supplied. Breeding pairs of animals are cheap and counts as renewable resource, they provides food, leather and bone, as long as there're enough breeding pairs to keep going. Animal husbandery can be slightly complicated with a -lot- of animals but the benefit is you have armour, weapon and food resource no matter where you go ( And as long as there're enough of 'em to breed ). It's really more player preference and avaliable resources so YMMV! (Plus last I recall, the only weapons that can be made with bones are crossbows, at least in vanilla DF using dwarves, correct me if I'm wrong, since some maps don't have woods. And some don't have stones but at least you can arm your guys with bone and leather equipments) -- [[User:TettyNullus|TettyNullus]] 01:30, 10 December 2008 (EST) ed: forget to say that I've had sieges big enough to run through 5 deep of fully loaded glass disc traps, that'd be stopped almost completelly by fully loaded crossbow traps with even bone bolts, but maybe I've just been lucky.<br />
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== Dwarven Flame Belcher ==<br />
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I'm modding DF to support a flamethrower trap component, and I was wondering whether 'charcoal' is an acceptable ammunition. More specifically, I'm curious what the proper name for refined coal is.<br />
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[ITEM_TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_FLAMEBELCHER]<br />
[NAME:flame belcher:flame belchers]<br />
[ADJECTIVE:dwarven]<br />
[DAMAGE:100:HEAT]<br />
[WEIGHT:200]<br />
[HITS:1]<br />
[CRITBOOST:1]<br />
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]<br />
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:CHARCOAL]<br />
[METAL]<br />
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It's designated as a crossbow because I don' know if RANGED will work without a skill. And so crossbow users in adventure mode can have fun. --[[User:RaguCat|RaguCat]] 14:13, 11 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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:If you wanted to be really awesome, you'd have Naptha produceable at an alchemists, and use Naptha as fuel. I suppose you could have Naptha be made from coke and soap, although really you'd need some oil too... but adding oil to the game sounds complicated. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 15:06, 11 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Do you mean napalm?--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 20:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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: Refined coal is [[coke]] in the game. Whiskey is a nice burny liquid your dwarves know how to make, but it's wasted on goblins. --[[User:Jellyfishgreen|Jellyfishgreen]] 19:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Spike Trap hit falling goblin ==<br />
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I had a spike trap surrounded by walls that I would drop gobbos on from 6 z-levels above; the idea was to stun them and then have a dwarf grind them to death. However, the first goblin I dropped died on impact (previous goblins did not) and got stuck in the spike trap. The trap wasn't being operated at the time. Has spike impact been added? --[[User:LucienSadi|LucienSadi]] 18:22, 22 December 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Friendlies ''completely'' immune to traps? ==<br />
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Unless I'm mistaken, except in a few cases, friendlies are immune to traps; if a friendly unit is on the same tile as a trap and an enemy triggers the trap only the enemy will get hurt. Right? --[[User:Xonara|Xonara]] 01:24, 4 January 2009 (EST)<br />
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Well it depends, if the trap in question is a spike trap, it will not discriminate between friend or foe, otherwise a trap shouldn't harm any conscious ally--[[User:Heliman|Heliman]] 2:12, May 17 2009 (EST)<br />
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== Traps + Caravans = very bad ==<br />
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Today, I had an elven caravan run into my weapon traps... they all died... this may be because they were wounded from goblin ambush but it is still kind of weird, is this a bug? or is it supposed to happen?<br />
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Correction: happened twice, first the elven, then a human caravan was ambushed and the same thing happened when they tried to flee to my fortress<br />
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:Friendly units can be caught in traps if they lose consciousness, which would usually be due to wounds. Although it could also happen if a dwarf with no bed happened to go to sleep on a trapped tile. --[[User:FunkyWaltDogg|FunkyWaltDogg]] 05:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: Um, isn't there a "panic" mode that will let any creatures trigger traps? Like kobold thieves can be caught by a trap after they ve been detected and run off? Maybe the same goes for chased traders. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 23:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Caged Dwarfs not immortal ==<br />
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So the bit about trapping berserk ones instead of killing them needs to be updated out of existence. I fiddeled with a rewrite where in I tried to say it myself, but I'm not very good, so I didn't post it.<br />
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== Stonefall traps not being reloaded?==<br />
I don't know what is going on, but in my game, some of the stonefall traps don't seem to get reloaded since they show a whole bunch of stone on top of it which blinks as it should when icons are on top of each other, however, I'm not sure if this is normal or not.--[[User:Smjjames|Smjjames]] 21:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Sure they reload them, just not with the same stone. Because dwarves are stupid like that. I just dump the excess stones once they get annoying enough. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 23:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: Apparently so. Anyways, it was looking like the stones were actually blocking the traps from working right, so I cleared them anyway. Those goblin seiges are pretty skittish, once they take a few casualties from my traps, they run like chickens.--[[User:Smjjames|Smjjames]] 01:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
:: It seems that when dwarves are assigned a job to load a trap, they will pick up stone closest to their current location, not closest to trap. --[[User:Denspb|Denspb]] 18:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Cage trap bug ==<br />
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recently I caught about 15 goblins in a siege so I decided to drop them in my volcano to prove a point to the rest. Well I dropped them in and then I noticed that one of my cage traps was smoking and that there was everything that a goblin bowmen would where in it. So after a couple of minutes I had gotten a screw pump ready to try and get rid of the smoke when my game crashed then I tried it again and the exact same thing happened. Im pretty sure that this is a bug but I cant be sure.--[[User:Cerol The Elf Hunter|Cerol The Elf Hunter]] 00:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== disposing of trapped hostiles ==<br />
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What is the safest/easiest way to empty cages? TIA <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Build a drowning room that you can fill with a screw pump / floodgate connected to river, build the cages in there, link a lever to the cages, close and forbid the door of the drowning room, pull the lever.<br />
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Other ways are more risky, but can also be more fun ;)<br />
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--[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 13:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Human ambushers trap-immune? ==<br />
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In 28.181.40d it seems that the humans that come with the goblin ambushes walk past my traps without setting them off, luckily they usually flee when their goblin friends follow them and are killed by the traps. Do humans have some sort of trap-evasion now too or (more likely) do human ambushers also benefit from that "not affected by traps their diplomats have seen" thing that human sieges get?<br />
--[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 07:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Update: seems like it really is caused by the human diplomats seeing the traps... another ambush, the human walked past all the traps just fine until he hit a weapon trap that I constructed after the last caravan already left. I'm now building special trap-filled, pet-baited corridors with doors in front so the filthy spies can't see them.--[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 12:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm, now an elf leading a goblin ambush walked past traps too... not sure what to make of this --[[User:Syndic|Syndic]] 14:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== {forbidden} animal corpses ==<br />
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when elephants are getting killed by my weapon traps (which IMO are being a great way to train my forest gulag woodcutter/carpenter/mechanic Corps of Engineers) the corpse is {forbidden}. Which means perfectly good meat/skin going to waste.<br />
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Is there a way to make dead meat not be auto-forbidden?? Might be worth putting in there somewhere??<br />
I've already got one friendly herd of elephants so don't need to cage-trap any more thanks!<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page/Quote&diff=55292Main Page/Quote2009-10-17T13:19:37Z<p>GarrieIrons: |<!--81-->Urist McRandy has been ecstatic lately. He brought somebody to bed lately. - from a recent dwarves thoughts page. Honestly! except the name.</p>
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PLEASE LIMIT QUOTES TO ~135 CHARACTERS OR LESS. (longest below are longer than that, but remain as "legacy" from Toady etc.)<br />
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|<!--1-->I can't put my finger on it. Something about this [[Fire|‼]]Cat tallow roast[[Fire|‼]] tastes funny.<br />
|<!--2-->Toady withdraws from society. Toady has begun a [[Strange_mood|mysterious]] construction!<br />
|<!--3-->Let us never forget the last words of Inod the Stoker, [http://archive.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Fortress_Paintrag#1056 "Aaah! Gorillas!"]<br />
|<!--4-->[[Children|Newborn]] Zuglar Baldnessgranite prefers to consume Gorilla. A sure sign of his unparalleled strength!<br />
|<!--5-->[http://www.somethingawful.com/d/video-game-article/duke-nukem-image.php In an unrelated article] - I had no idea elephants could bounce that high!<br />
|<!--6-->[[Toady]] looses a roaring laughter, [[Fey|fell]] and terrible! Toady has butchered a spammer!<br />
|<!--7-->The critical question is this''':''' do elf bones yield more crossbow bolts than the average number of bolts necessary to kill an elf?<br />
|<!--8-->"Dwarf Fortress" ... "Like chess, only with short people that can catch on [[fire]] like [[clothing|rags]] soaked in tar, and lots of [[booze]]." ... "Like chess."<br />
|<!--9-->Dwarf Fortress has taught me that all the world's problems would be substantially reduced had our parent civilizations never minted more than four stacks of [[coins]].<br />
|<!--10-->[[Booze]] does all the work in forts. Dwarves are just booze exoskeletons.<br />
|<!--11-->My unconscious and bleeding [[mayor]] just mandated the construction of some goods.<br />
|<!--12-->I can just imagine a wagon throwing a tantrum and tossing all its contents at people.<br />
|<!--13-->Döbesh Udosdeb has been ecstatic lately. He was forced to eat a friend to survive. He enjoyed a truly decadent meal.<br />
|<!--14-->Iron [[screw pump]] exercise equipment. Pump iron and get superdwarvenly strong!<br />
|<!--15-->The violence, aggression, pain, madness, sadness of the ASCII characters never ceases to amaze me...<br />
|<!--16-->Wait, you're MAKING animals?<br>&mdash;''Torak''<br>At this moment, yes, I am smelting cows.<br>&mdash;''Spiders Everywhere''<br />
|<!--17-->"Didn't you read the manual? He he he he... the manual... ..."<br>--[[Toady One]]<br />
|<!--18-->(Compared to real-world years) Dwarven years are shorter.<br>--Sowelu<br><br>Very fitting to dwarves, I must add.<br>--Sean Mirrsen<br />
|<!--19-->[[Magma]] is not a [[water]] source. Dwarves can't drink it or supply it to their wounded.<br>--[[User:AlienChickenPie|AlienChickenPie]]<br />
|<!--20-->"<nowiki>[B]</nowiki>oats are the enemy of tiles. And tiles are the enemy of boats."<br>--[[Toady One]]<br />
|<!--21-->"I went through and fixed a few places where forbidden/on fire weren't being respected for next time. Burning milkable creatures were still a problem for example."<br>--[[Toady One]]<br />
|<!--22-->"You have been processed! Go forth, now, and edit!"<br>--[[User:Savok|Savok]]<br />
|<!--23-->"What happened in 1048?" "Jreengus occurred."<br />
|<!--24-->Making rock instruments isn't nearly as awesome as it sounds --Shandrunn<br />
|<!--25-->The cyclops I was quested to kill had a thousand year history of badassery, and all of that without the leg it lost in the Year 3 (a dwarf bit it off... I should probably deal with that). --[[Toady One]]<br />
|<!--26-->[FIREIMMUNE] makes them think that [[magma]] is safe but doesn't actually make them fireproof. This can lead to some rather interesting results.<br />
|<!--27-->Endok Cerolneth has begun a mysterious construction!<br />
Endok Cerolneth, Planter has given birth to a girl.<br />
|<!--28-->"Incendia sunt socia vestra, armaque vestra, fortesque Montis Domi." "Magma is your ally, your weapon, the strength of the Mountain-Home." --Eita<br />
|<!--29-->"Stopped people from giving quests to kill themselves." --[[Toady One]]<br />
|<!--30-->"...And I simply doubt we have a need for 7 fishery workers. On top of that, a second soap maker. The hell IS soap?!" --Zero<br />
|<!--31-->"This is a terrible pun. All craftsdwarfship is of the poorest quality." - [http://tinyurl.com/6yruly Soup_alex]<br />
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|<!--33-->"Why get normal cats? I buy lolcats in the embark screen. Much more fun to engrave about them." --Yanlin<br />
|<!--34-->"Dwarf Fortress taught me it was okay to make a suit out of my neighbour's skin, as long as I gave it a name." <br />
|<!--35-->"Got rid of world gen crash during succession after death of prolific long-standing position holders with inbred descendants" --[[Toady One]]<br />
|<!--36-->"There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game." --[[Toady One]]<br />
|<!--37-->"Hey, what does that flashing red and orange text mean? What? Why is there smoke everywhere? Oh god, are those BABIES on fire?" --[[User:StrawberryBunny|StrawberryBunny]]<br />
|<!--38-->"It's never 'just a game' when you're losing."<br>--George Carlin (if he played Dwarf Fortress)<br />
|<!--39-->Not that building a bridge out of soap makes much sense to begin with anyway.<br />
|<!--40-->Note that while you cannot milk larger animals yourself, civilizations can still milk animals "off screen" for your benefit.<br />
|<!--41-->Tosid Idenarzes likes tentacle demons for their corrupt intentions. "There! Now we've covered all of the seven deadly sins."<br />
|<!--42-->"Litast Idenudesh, baby, is throwing a tantrum! Inod Litastrilem, Mayor, has lost consciousness. Inod Litastrilem, Mayor, has bled to death."<br />
|<!--43-->"Known bug #780: Town guard becomes a criminal after getting an adventurer's stolen weapon stuck in his body."<br />
|<!--44-->"Udib Toblumaid, Axedwarf, cancels sparring in Barracks: too insane." [[User:Ben jamm1n|Ben jamm1n]]<br />
|<!--45-->Kosoth Cilobonol, Bone Carver cancels Drink: Unconscious.<br />
|<!--46-->Sizir the Snail of Bait is a deity of The Fresh Towers. Sizir most often takes the form of a female dwarf and is associated with jealousy.<br />
|<!--47-->Sibrek Tanbim likes Limestone, Tin, Smoky Quartz, the color crimson, bolts, scepters, anvils, and rock blocks for their lack of quality levels.<br />
|<!--48-->Most vermin teleport, so nothing actually contains them. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]]<br />
|<!--49-->There are 5 articles in category Lore: Armok, Cave Adaptation, Elephant, Philosopher, and Vomit.<br />
|<!--50-->There is nothing to catch in the magma pipe.<br />
|<!--51-->Bug #563: mayor ordered himself beaten for failing to make crystal glass objects<br />
|<!--52-->If cow cheese is made from cow's milk, what is dwarven cheese made of?<br />
|<!--53-->Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn<br />
|<!--54-->"You know, Urist, you've got a mind like an +Ash Trap+."--[[User:Destor|Destor]]<br />
|<!--55-->'''Zander J:''' "Is there a way to stop immigration without setting the population cap?"<br>'''Yanlin:''' "Magma."<br />
|<!--56-->An animal trainer just suddenly stopped working and hid himself in a workshop. He's probably going to make a wardog out of rock and goblin skulls.<br />
|<!--57-->flying creatures give birth in midair, leading to tragedy<br />
|<!--58-->'''Urdim Kutamèrith, Pump Operator, has created Rakusttenshed, a Glumprong blowgun!''' <br> Urdim, you are a freaking idiot.<br />
|<!--59--><Forkez> I don't get the game, but I do get that tunnels flooded with water is a bad thing.<br />
|<!--60-->"If you give a dwarf a fire, he will be warm for a night. If you set a dwarf on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."<br />
|<!--61-->"Since the Elves said they won't let me cut down any trees, I bought 50 of their logs instead."<br />
|<!--62-->Do not make a trading race that breathes fire.<br/><br/>I REPEAT, DON'T!! EVER!! <br />
|<!--63-->Dwarf Fortress: Because burning elves are funny.<br />
|<!--64-->I had somebody shoot my toe off with a crossbow, which was cool... It just happened that the toe was narrow enough to be removed. -- Dev Log, 08/18/09<br />
|<!--65-->There's one thing a dwarf needs, and that's stones. And alcohol... and magma... but mainly stones.<br />
|<!--66-->"I swear to god once I saw a dwarf who was labeled as being Strong, Very Agile, Very Tough... and ''Clean''. But it was probably just a bad dream."<br />
|<!--67-->"So let me get this straight. We managed to destroy dwarven civilization while only managing a single town??" --alway<br />
|<!--68-->"Dwarven children kidnapped and incorporated into goblin society might sh... shave."<br> --Toady One<br />
|<!--69-->Bug #871: babies fall to death when born on stairs<br />
|<!--70-->Bug #1031: a merchant pack animal caught at an old dwarf site during adv mode was wearing a full set of clothes<br />
|<!--71-->"[[Magma]] solves everything. [[Fire]] just ruins the [[booze]]." -sonerohi<br />
|<!--72-->You can't yet strangle people with the exposed guts, though I suppose that's now within reach. --[[Toady One]]<br />
|<!--73-->Look, there are roving clumps of sentient lava outside, ... This isn't going to get better. --PTTG??<br />
|<!--74-->...and the only surviving dwarf is a noble who has mandated the construction of crowns and clear glass items to the empty halls. --PTTG??<br />
|<!--75-->Adil Idenlocun is conflicted: "When possible he prefers to consume purring maggot, Dwarven ale and Dwarven syrup. He absolutely detests purring maggots."<br />
|<!--76-->"I had to leave just before I tested the dwarf with the boiling gold blood." -- Toady the Great One<br />
|<!--77-->Urdim Zatinod has been quite content lately. She has lost an annoying friend to tragedy lately.<br />
|<!--78-->Sarvesh Ralrubal likes olivine, olivine and olivine.<br />
|<!--79-->The carp has drowned.<br />
|<!--80-->Only in Dwarf Fortress would you try to catch a mermaid to butcher her and make trophies out of her bones.<br />
|<!--81-->Urist McRandy has been ecstatic lately. He brought somebody to bed lately.<br />
<br />
}}<!--WARNING:EQUALS SIGNS BREAK THINGS<br />
NOTICE: If you are editing this and you have not read the instructions on the talk page, your quote will probably not appear.--><noinclude>[[Category:Humor and stories]]</noinclude></div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d_Talk:Init.txt&diff=5527440d Talk:Init.txt2009-10-17T04:56:45Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Add items to a bin */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>== Suggestions ==<br />
<br />
Use <nowiki><br></nowiki> on the lines with multiple fields, such as the color settings, if you want it to look like the actual text file does.<br />
<br />
A good practice is simply to put that break tag on the end of every line of the formatted text. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 20:01, 27 December 2007 (EST)<br />
Ok did that. Thanks. [[User:Jikor|Jikor]]<br />
<br />
== Mouse Setting ==<br />
<br />
I'm one who prefers not to have the mouse involved in gameplay, yet I find that using NO or FALSE for the mouse setting still allows mouse use for designating tiles.<br><br />
While this is useful for allowing mouse-based macros for room designs (as opposed to keyboard-based of course) it is still a thorn in my side.<br><br />
I'm looking for confirmation/refutation of this, and any discovered fix to make it truly [MOUSE:NO].<br><br />
--[[User:N9103|Edward]] 08:40, 17 May 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I've experienced this as well in v0.27.176.38c. I did not notice any change after using YES, NO, and FALSE. [[User:Elvang|Elvang]] 23:21, 3 June 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Article for Deletion? ==<br />
<br />
Do we need this page? What is the purpose of it? --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 00:11, 4 June 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I suppose its more of a reference for those who screw up or need to revert their init.txt file without redownloading the game. [[User:Elvang|Elvang]] 01:32, 4 June 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Re-organize? ==<br />
<br />
This may just be me, but I find that having the preference before the text explaining it helps to make this page more understandable. For instance, <br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
[SOUND:ON]<br />
<br>Change this to turn sound off.<br />
</blockquote><br />
is much more readable than<br />
<blockquote><br />
Change this to turn sound off.<br />
<br>[SOUND:ON]<br />
</blockquote><br />
--[[User:Lucien|Lucien]] 05:03, 11 July 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Pop cap minimum? ==<br />
<br />
Is it just me, or is the minimum population count ten? I set it for seven (wanting an isolationist settlement), and I wound up with ten dwarves, but no more come despite me now having plenty of cash to attract them, and only one death (three years ago). --[[User:Erathoniel|Erathoniel]] 22:00, 10 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Quite possibly. It is known that popcap settings go wonky if you set them too low. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 10:23, 27 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Show magma on embark screen? ==<br />
<br />
I've seen several mentions of, but no description of how to, use the init file to show where magma is on the embark screen. Anyone? --[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 02:02, 28 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I've updated the page. It now reflects the exact contents of the default init.txt for 40d. I'm also going to add a couple of anchors throughout the text so that we can jump directly to certain key things within the transcript.<br>For your question, try searching your init.txt for "FINDER". You'll get there. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 02:29, 28 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Anchors ==<br />
<br />
So was it a good idea to do this? Any other things to link to? :V --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 21:54, 28 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== TEXTURE_PARAM ==<br />
<br />
So what does it do? Will making this NEAREST help FPS?--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 09:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Population cap in 40d ==<br />
<br />
My current fortress has its population cap set to 200, and its final wave of migrants brought the population to exactly 200. Years later, when one of my fortress guards died in a sparring accident, a '''single''' migrant showed up to replace him. A few seasons later, another guard died to a sparring accident (his rookie replacement, appropriately enough) and just now, another lone migrant arrived. It's known that the population cap doesn't care about childbirth (which is how my last fort got up to population 275), but at least in 40d it appears to be working exactly as it should for the purposes of migrants. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 02:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
*Of course, now that I've said that, I just got an additional single migrant, bumping my population to 201. At least he's a metalsmith, so I don't have to bother retraining him in a moodable profession. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 04:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Add items to a bin ==<br />
<br />
Do any of these entries actually encourage dwarves to say, move relevant items to a bin which is in a stockpile, rather than simply dump items onto the stockpile?<br />
<br />
I read this as saying that one setting discourages mixing different items in the same bin. What I want to do is increase the priority for hauling items and dropping them into a bin. I have empty bins all over the place and empty stockpiles too.<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 04:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d_Talk:Cross-training&diff=5520840d Talk:Cross-training2009-10-16T11:11:23Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Forest Gulag */</p>
<hr />
<div>=Pump operator notes=<br />
Not sure the toughness note is really that important. The gym is just used for dwarven stat gains, so dwarves are beefy enough to excell at whatever you throw at them. It scarcely matters how well they pump, just so long as they get to Legendary to be reassigned to the military or something else. I've noticed gym graduates make fantastic hunters for example. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:47, 3 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Well, it makes pump-training far more effective for dwarves that are already tough: they can hit legendary in a season or two, where other dwarves take about a year. So if you have a finite number of dwarves you can spare for training, choose tough ones. Strong ones can be put in plate and made to spar, or turned into siege operators.<br />
<br />
:Currently I'm training all my haulers, in shifts. Ones that gain toughness get to keep pumping until they're ready for the military. Strong ones get stone hauling duty. Everyone else gets food, item, or refuse duty.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:06, 3 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:: I now give all my haulers the custom profession ''ROTC.'' --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 07:50, 8 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::: I've been trying cross-training, and I'm not really seeing much point at the moment. The thing is, sparring practices three skills ''at the same time'': Armor user, the weapon you're using, and shield user. The gym's rate of stat gain is almost the same as regularly sparring dwarves. And military dwarves are useful for something. [[User:Greep|Greep]] 09:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::The "point" is several - 1) that some players don't want to put non-Attribute (or at least, non-Tough) dwarves directly into sparring; 2) that some players want military with more than "one-skill-worth" of training attributes under their belts; 3) that some players want to see what the attribute mix is on a dwarf ''before'' allocating to training (vs hauling/etc); and, 4) it's ''cross''-training. Military dwarves aren't useful for anything ''but'' military - that's the "cross" part. There are several suggestions other than pump operator - use them or not - your call. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 18:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Alright, I guess gym training just isn't for me. But as for the one skill worth of attribute training, I thought attributes continued to rise even after legendary + 5. Like an uber miner would eventually gain 16 attributes? That's what the stat page seems to indicate [[User:Greep|Greep]] 06:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
If you make two pumps, one above the other (Y axis, not Z), facing apposing directions, dig 2 channels at each end, making a 2X8 space, you can not only increase toughness and pump operator skill, but get happy [[waterfall]] [[thoughts]]. --[[User:Drunken dwarf|Drunken dwarf]]<br />
<br />
=Dwarf Powered Mill notes=<br />
Actually, it is better not to cook seeds. As seeds have quantity cap at 200 seeds for each plant, milling will not produce seeds after you hit the cap. It saves a visible amount of food hauler's work. [[User:Denspb|Denspb]] 02:58, 25 February 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Managing ==<br />
<br />
Assigning a dwarf to manager may be even better than clerking. I had two useless dwarves. Assigned one to clerk, another to manager+broker. Disabled hauling jobs for the manager. I then went to the manager screen and queued up a full screen of "Make Soap x30." I chose soap because I don't even have an alchemist's workshop and I didn't want any jobs assigned to existing workshops and disrupting work flow. I lost track of how many times I had to go back in and cancel/re-issue the soap orders. The manager reached legendary while the clerk was still a pathetic high master. I didn't measure steps, but their offices and bedrooms were all very close together, should be around 5-10 steps difference for each dwarf to go get food/drink.<br />
<br />
Other factors:<br />
<br>-Clerk has a husband (no kids), manager is single<br />
<br>-Clerk went on break at least once<br />
<br>-Hauling was still enabled for the clerk, not sure if she did any jobs though<br />
<br>-At the beginning, Clerk had no skills, Manager had Normal Skill Wood Carving (not much good on my treeless map)<br />
<br>-Manager met with human diplomat and traded at depot during training<br />
<br />
--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 17:18, 2 March 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Chit-chatting ==<br />
<br />
Having no meeting halls (well rooms, statue gardens etc) at all, and just having a single 1x1 meeting area REALLY boosted my haulers stats. I might not be the most efficient assigner of work orders, but some of the time most of my haulers were out of work and just spent their time at the meeting area chatting. I had a lot of proficient-or-higher in EVERY social skill within a couple of years. This might be an exploit. Thoughts? [[User:Tardface|Tardface]] 22:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Yes and no. Chatting dwarfs make friends... and if some dies... Well, you'll have a nice domino effect. Dwarf don't like to lose friends. --[[User:Karl|Karl]] 23:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: So, dwarves will actually be happier overall if you don't let them have any friends? :) [[User:Tardface|Tardface]] 23:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::In the long-run (which inevitably includes many random deaths) yes.. very much so. Rather few, are the fortresses that can survive a death among legendary haulers, and fewer still are those than can survive several. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 21:06, 4 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Not really. Random deaths are not exactly inevitable unless you want them to be, and party forts are pretty resilient when it comes to a couple odd deaths: everyone is racking up "talked to a friend lately" thoughts like crazy, so even if a few deaths push them down to miserable they will bounce back up to ecstatic in about a minute. The danger is that if you have more than a couple of deaths at once, the immediate surge in unhappiness may cause spontaneous insanity, which will lead to more deaths... [[User:Rpb|Rpb]] 11:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::::Thoughts don't stack on themselves, so you can only get one "talked to a friend recently" thought at one time. The wisdom of having dwarves too busy to make friends is still the best, hands down. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 16:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Swimming ==<br />
<br />
Has anybody considered stationing dwarves in an area with 4/7 water, thus giving them skill in swimming? Beds could be constructed in this area prior, turned into a barracks and if a food/booze stockpile is placed there aswell, the dwaves could be locked in there and would then perform all the normal sparring activities while at the same time constantly gaining swimming skill. --[[User:Overspeculated|Overspeculated]] 00:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
:I successfully trained dwarfs in 7/7 water before. I filled a 5x5 space one z level down from a 15x15 statue garden with water and surrounded with ramps. Although the dwarfs frequently fell in, they were never far away from the sides and thus never drowned. (Although a cow managed to drown there and create quite a funk with the miasma since no one would wade in to dump the corpse--I'm still not sure how that happened since the dwarfs had no problem with it.) [[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 01:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
Yes, but would military dwarves still perform sparring activities if their barracks was 4/7 under water? (where they can wade or swim) eventually raising that level once they are good enough at swimming. I'm testing it out as soon as I get my flooding mechanism done (I'm still new to this game so that takes quite a while for me) --[[User:Overspeculated|Overspeculated]] 12:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Forest Gulag ==<br />
<br />
I have set my fortress in an area with:<br />
# volcano<br />
# steep "low mountain" (entrance is on top of course)<br />
# sand<br />
# canyon (like "Grand Canyon")<br />
# chasm (on the "wrong side" of the Grand Canyon thankfully)<br />
# A forest covers my side of the "Grand Canyon"<br />
# Elephants wander through periodically, and I have some tame ones now too.<br />
<br />
What I want to know is, what is the best way to use the forest to build experience. I'm happy to clear-fell the forest then start again from the beginning, but the fact is I am having a hard time so far keeping the wagon pathway clear as it is. I NEED MORE AXES! (getting there.)<br />
<br />
For my non-woodcutter dwarves: what should they do with the lumber to get the most experience without making junk all over the place?<br />
<br />
Do I make a stack of asherys, to make potash, to make clear glass "later"?<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Given the lack of answers to date my best bet seems to be:<br />
:#clear-fell forest<br />
:#Construct carpenter workshop from wood. Assign workshop to not lower skilled carpenters.<br />
:#Build wooden weapons usable for weapon traps<br />
:#have other dwarves constructing mechanisms<br />
:#construct weapon traps using wooden weapons<br />
:<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Alternatively, if you're planning on making lots of clear glass, you can make all of the ashes into lye - you can fit 100 units of lye in a single barrel, which saves lots of storage space. Plus, you can also use the lye for making soap, if you are inclined. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 12:54, 7 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
::You can't build wooden weapon. Only the elves have the secret to build them without hurting trees... Damn hippies. Yet you could build menacing wooden spikes or stuff like that... but... Wood only do half damage, so it's a waste of wood and your trap are not going to be really effective. You could instead do it with glass, a lot more step needed to have the same result, but it's way more fun, and you can build a lot of stuff from clear glass. <br />
:: Since there's a limit to the number of tree you can fell, and since they don't grow fast enough (if you have 5-10 good woodcutters) you should had more step in the process to use a lot of dwarf, hence the clear glass production.<br />
:: By the way, obsidian and wood make good rock sword, and it's as good as steel, if you have access to water, you could build an obsidian farm. --[[User:Karl|Karl]] 15:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::This is ideas for a forest gulag as such they don't have to be practical!<br />
:::While wooden weapons are not very efficient, if you can make a stack of them out in the boonies then all you have to cart in from underground is 1 mechanism per trap. So your (gulag) treecutter cuts down 10 trees per trap, your (gulag) carpenter makes 10 wooden spikes per trap, and your mechanic (knowing my fortresses, my ONLY mechanic) makes traps once some other poor sot drages the mechnisms out there. With a nice little wooden fence to restrict pathing a few weapon traps even with wooden spikes should do SOMETHING shouldn't they?<br />
:::My three treecutters aren't keeping the boundary of 1/2 of my map clear of trees, let alone clear felling the entire map. These guys are full-time treecutters! '''Waste of wood''' is relative to the map, it is better (safer, less hauling) to ask for wood and sell traders the clothes from the invaders to actually get wood into the fortress (1 silk shirt buys 200 or so logs!).<br />
:::<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)</div>GarrieIronshttps://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=40d_Talk:Cross-training&diff=5406140d Talk:Cross-training2009-10-07T10:35:55Z<p>GarrieIrons: /* Forest Gulag */</p>
<hr />
<div>=Pump operator notes=<br />
Not sure the toughness note is really that important. The gym is just used for dwarven stat gains, so dwarves are beefy enough to excell at whatever you throw at them. It scarcely matters how well they pump, just so long as they get to Legendary to be reassigned to the military or something else. I've noticed gym graduates make fantastic hunters for example. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:47, 3 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Well, it makes pump-training far more effective for dwarves that are already tough: they can hit legendary in a season or two, where other dwarves take about a year. So if you have a finite number of dwarves you can spare for training, choose tough ones. Strong ones can be put in plate and made to spar, or turned into siege operators.<br />
<br />
:Currently I'm training all my haulers, in shifts. Ones that gain toughness get to keep pumping until they're ready for the military. Strong ones get stone hauling duty. Everyone else gets food, item, or refuse duty.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:06, 3 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:: I now give all my haulers the custom profession ''ROTC.'' --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 07:50, 8 November 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::: I've been trying cross-training, and I'm not really seeing much point at the moment. The thing is, sparring practices three skills ''at the same time'': Armor user, the weapon you're using, and shield user. The gym's rate of stat gain is almost the same as regularly sparring dwarves. And military dwarves are useful for something. [[User:Greep|Greep]] 09:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::The "point" is several - 1) that some players don't want to put non-Attribute (or at least, non-Tough) dwarves directly into sparring; 2) that some players want military with more than "one-skill-worth" of training attributes under their belts; 3) that some players want to see what the attribute mix is on a dwarf ''before'' allocating to training (vs hauling/etc); and, 4) it's ''cross''-training. Military dwarves aren't useful for anything ''but'' military - that's the "cross" part. There are several suggestions other than pump operator - use them or not - your call. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 18:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Alright, I guess gym training just isn't for me. But as for the one skill worth of attribute training, I thought attributes continued to rise even after legendary + 5. Like an uber miner would eventually gain 16 attributes? That's what the stat page seems to indicate [[User:Greep|Greep]] 06:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
If you make two pumps, one above the other (Y axis, not Z), facing apposing directions, dig 2 channels at each end, making a 2X8 space, you can not only increase toughness and pump operator skill, but get happy [[waterfall]] [[thoughts]]. --[[User:Drunken dwarf|Drunken dwarf]]<br />
<br />
=Dwarf Powered Mill notes=<br />
Actually, it is better not to cook seeds. As seeds have quantity cap at 200 seeds for each plant, milling will not produce seeds after you hit the cap. It saves a visible amount of food hauler's work. [[User:Denspb|Denspb]] 02:58, 25 February 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Managing ==<br />
<br />
Assigning a dwarf to manager may be even better than clerking. I had two useless dwarves. Assigned one to clerk, another to manager+broker. Disabled hauling jobs for the manager. I then went to the manager screen and queued up a full screen of "Make Soap x30." I chose soap because I don't even have an alchemist's workshop and I didn't want any jobs assigned to existing workshops and disrupting work flow. I lost track of how many times I had to go back in and cancel/re-issue the soap orders. The manager reached legendary while the clerk was still a pathetic high master. I didn't measure steps, but their offices and bedrooms were all very close together, should be around 5-10 steps difference for each dwarf to go get food/drink.<br />
<br />
Other factors:<br />
<br>-Clerk has a husband (no kids), manager is single<br />
<br>-Clerk went on break at least once<br />
<br>-Hauling was still enabled for the clerk, not sure if she did any jobs though<br />
<br>-At the beginning, Clerk had no skills, Manager had Normal Skill Wood Carving (not much good on my treeless map)<br />
<br>-Manager met with human diplomat and traded at depot during training<br />
<br />
--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 17:18, 2 March 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Chit-chatting ==<br />
<br />
Having no meeting halls (well rooms, statue gardens etc) at all, and just having a single 1x1 meeting area REALLY boosted my haulers stats. I might not be the most efficient assigner of work orders, but some of the time most of my haulers were out of work and just spent their time at the meeting area chatting. I had a lot of proficient-or-higher in EVERY social skill within a couple of years. This might be an exploit. Thoughts? [[User:Tardface|Tardface]] 22:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Yes and no. Chatting dwarfs make friends... and if some dies... Well, you'll have a nice domino effect. Dwarf don't like to lose friends. --[[User:Karl|Karl]] 23:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: So, dwarves will actually be happier overall if you don't let them have any friends? :) [[User:Tardface|Tardface]] 23:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::In the long-run (which inevitably includes many random deaths) yes.. very much so. Rather few, are the fortresses that can survive a death among legendary haulers, and fewer still are those than can survive several. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 21:06, 4 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Not really. Random deaths are not exactly inevitable unless you want them to be, and party forts are pretty resilient when it comes to a couple odd deaths: everyone is racking up "talked to a friend lately" thoughts like crazy, so even if a few deaths push them down to miserable they will bounce back up to ecstatic in about a minute. The danger is that if you have more than a couple of deaths at once, the immediate surge in unhappiness may cause spontaneous insanity, which will lead to more deaths... [[User:Rpb|Rpb]] 11:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::::Thoughts don't stack on themselves, so you can only get one "talked to a friend recently" thought at one time. The wisdom of having dwarves too busy to make friends is still the best, hands down. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 16:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Swimming ==<br />
<br />
Has anybody considered stationing dwarves in an area with 4/7 water, thus giving them skill in swimming? Beds could be constructed in this area prior, turned into a barracks and if a food/booze stockpile is placed there aswell, the dwaves could be locked in there and would then perform all the normal sparring activities while at the same time constantly gaining swimming skill. --[[User:Overspeculated|Overspeculated]] 00:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
:I successfully trained dwarfs in 7/7 water before. I filled a 5x5 space one z level down from a 15x15 statue garden with water and surrounded with ramps. Although the dwarfs frequently fell in, they were never far away from the sides and thus never drowned. (Although a cow managed to drown there and create quite a funk with the miasma since no one would wade in to dump the corpse--I'm still not sure how that happened since the dwarfs had no problem with it.) [[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 01:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
Yes, but would military dwarves still perform sparring activities if their barracks was 4/7 under water? (where they can wade or swim) eventually raising that level once they are good enough at swimming. I'm testing it out as soon as I get my flooding mechanism done (I'm still new to this game so that takes quite a while for me) --[[User:Overspeculated|Overspeculated]] 12:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Forest Gulag ==<br />
<br />
I have set my fortress in an area with:<br />
# volcano<br />
# steep "low mountain" (entrance is on top of course)<br />
# sand<br />
# canyon (like "Grand Canyon")<br />
# chasm (on the "wrong side" of the Grand Canyon thankfully)<br />
# A forest covers my side of the "Grand Canyon"<br />
# Elephants wander through periodically, and I have some tame ones now too.<br />
<br />
What I want to know is, what is the best way to use the forest to build experience. I'm happy to clear-fell the forest then start again from the beginning, but the fact is I am having a hard time so far keeping the wagon pathway clear as it is. I NEED MORE AXES! (getting there.)<br />
<br />
For my non-woodcutter dwarves: what should they do with the lumber to get the most experience without making junk all over the place?<br />
<br />
Do I make a stack of asherys, to make potash, to make clear glass "later"?<br />
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Given the lack of answers to date my best bet seems to be:<br />
:#clear-fell forest<br />
:#Construct carpenter workshop from wood. Assign workshop to not lower skilled carpenters.<br />
:#Build wooden weapons usable for weapon traps<br />
:#have other dwarves constructing mechanisms<br />
:#construct weapon traps using wooden weapons<br />
:<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)</div>GarrieIrons