Military testing - Revision history

Azathfeld: /* Warhammer Material Testing (Testing by Jonaut) */

2025-03-08T09:12:20Z

Warhammer Material Testing (Testing by Jonaut)

174.0.247.27: /* Warhammer Material Testing by Jonaut */ changed credit to be stylistically consistent with the rest of the article

2025-02-13T05:34:05Z

Warhammer Material Testing by Jonaut: changed credit to be stylistically consistent with the rest of the article

174.0.247.27: Added a segment about blunt weapon material comparison in v50, based on personal arena mode testing.

2025-02-13T05:32:44Z

Added a segment about blunt weapon material comparison in v50, based on personal arena mode testing.

Mimi-limonite: /* Best weapon to fight dragons (tested by: Mimi-limonite) */

2024-05-15T16:20:41Z

Best weapon to fight dragons (tested by: Mimi-limonite)

Mimi-limonite: /* Best weapon to fight dragons (tested by: Mimi-limonite) */

2024-05-15T16:12:36Z

Best weapon to fight dragons (tested by: Mimi-limonite)

Mimi-limonite: /* v50 (v50.11) tests */

2024-05-15T15:48:10Z

v50 (v50.11) tests

Mimi-limonite: starting writing for my experiment

2024-05-15T15:33:24Z

starting writing for my experiment

98.206.141.97: Fix stats misstatement

2023-08-12T19:37:23Z

Fix stats misstatement

67.167.213.103: /* Heavy Armor vs Medium Armor (tested by: someguy) */

2023-02-27T23:48:30Z

Heavy Armor vs Medium Armor (tested by: someguy)

67.167.213.103: /* Heavy Armor vs Medium Armor (tested by: someguy) */

2023-02-25T22:23:33Z

Heavy Armor vs Medium Armor (tested by: someguy)

@@ Line 2,294: / Line 2,294: @@
 == Warhammer Material Testing (Testing by Jonaut) ==
-It has been debated many times as to if a [[blunt]] weapon's material affects its usefulness. This data was only collected using [[warhammers]], though it can be presumed that it also applies to [[maces]].
+It has been debated many times as to if a [[blunt]] weapon's material affects its usefulness. This data was only collected using [[war hammer]]s, though it can be presumed that it also applies to [[mace]]s.
-[[Platinum]] should theoretically do the most damage, it has quite low [[impact elasticity]], and an exceptionally [[high density]]. [[Steel]], on the other hand, should be quite bad for warhammers, it has a very low density comparatively, and a surprisingly high impact elasticity. [[Silver]] is in the middle, still having more density than steel, yet half that of platinum. Its impact elasticity is much lower than steel's, but higher than platinum's. Silver is the densest weapons-grade metal. It is also much more accessible, as platinum is not a weapons-grade metal, meaning it must be made into weapons exclusively through [[strange moods]].
+[[Platinum]] should theoretically do the most damage, it has quite low [[impact elasticity]], and an exceptionally high [[density]]. [[Steel]], on the other hand, should be quite bad for warhammers, it has a very low density comparatively, and a surprisingly high impact elasticity. [[Silver]] is in the middle, still having more density than steel, yet half that of platinum. Its impact elasticity is much lower than steel's, but higher than platinum's. Silver is the densest weapons-grade metal. It is also much more accessible, as platinum is not a weapons-grade metal, meaning it must be made into weapons exclusively through [[strange mood]]s.
 <u>'''Platinum vs Steel:'''</u>
@@ Line 2,349: / Line 2,349: @@
 <u>''Combat Testing''</u>
-After a quick test, [[minotaurs]] can be dispatched by a squad of dwarves, unskilled and skilled with platinum warhammers, with the unskilled dwarves taking one death, and the skilled dwarves taking zero damage. [[Bronze colossuses]] easily dispatch the squads, both skilled and unskilled, as it appears their weaponry is unable to damage it. [[Dragons]] are also too strong for the squads, though the deaths were exclusively from the [[dragonfire]], meaning a squad with better [[shield user]] skill would likely have won. [[Rocs]], being the generally-considered weakest of the [[megabeasts]], was taken out with zero injuries by the skilled squad, and with 5 losses by the unskilled squad. Finally, a [[hydra]] was able to fully dispatch an unskilled squad, but could not inflict even a single injury upon the skilled one.
+After a quick test, [[minotaur]]s can be dispatched by a squad of dwarves, unskilled and skilled with platinum warhammers, with the unskilled dwarves taking one death, and the skilled dwarves taking zero damage. [[Bronze colossus]]es easily dispatch the squads, both skilled and unskilled, as it appears their weaponry is unable to damage it. [[Dragons]] are also too strong for the squads, though the deaths were exclusively from the [[dragonfire]], meaning a squad with better [[shield user]] skill would likely have won. [[Roc]]s, being the generally-considered weakest of the [[megabeasts]], was taken out with zero injuries by the skilled squad, and with 5 losses by the unskilled squad. Finally, a [[hydra]] was able to fully dispatch an unskilled squad, but could not inflict even a single injury upon the skilled one.
 A squad of unskilled dwarves with only [[iron]] [[spears]] was still able to kill the roc with less losses, only 3, but considering blunt damage's main weakness is pure size, the hammerdwarves did surprisingly well. Against armoured enemies, they would likely fare better than any other weapon.

@@ Line 2,293: / Line 2,293: @@
 (*) due to ease of counting, dwarf wins and draws are counted together, as it was much easier to count the number of remaining dragons(equivalent to dragon wins), ie number of surviving team 1 members, than check every room individually.
-== Warhammer Material Testing by Jonaut ==
+== Warhammer Material Testing (Testing by Jonaut) ==
 It has been debated many times as to if a [[blunt]] weapon's material affects its usefulness. This data was only collected using [[warhammers]], though it can be presumed that it also applies to [[maces]].
 [[Platinum]] should theoretically do the most damage, it has quite low [[impact elasticity]], and an exceptionally [[high density]]. [[Steel]], on the other hand, should be quite bad for warhammers, it has a very low density comparatively, and a surprisingly high impact elasticity. [[Silver]] is in the middle, still having more density than steel, yet half that of platinum. Its impact elasticity is much lower than steel's, but higher than platinum's. Silver is the densest weapons-grade metal. It is also much more accessible, as platinum is not a weapons-grade metal, meaning it must be made into weapons exclusively through [[strange moods]].

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:32, 13 February 2025
Line 2,292:		Line 2,292:
	<u>'''Notes:'''</u>		<u>'''Notes:'''</u>
	(*) due to ease of counting, dwarf wins and draws are counted together, as it was much easier to count the number of remaining dragons(equivalent to dragon wins), ie number of surviving team 1 members, than check every room individually.		(*) due to ease of counting, dwarf wins and draws are counted together, as it was much easier to count the number of remaining dragons(equivalent to dragon wins), ie number of surviving team 1 members, than check every room individually.
		+
		+	== Warhammer Material Testing by Jonaut ==
		+	It has been debated many times as to if a [[blunt]] weapon's material affects its usefulness. This data was only collected using [[warhammers]], though it can be presumed that it also applies to [[maces]].
		+	[[Platinum]] should theoretically do the most damage, it has quite low [[impact elasticity]], and an exceptionally [[high density]]. [[Steel]], on the other hand, should be quite bad for warhammers, it has a very low density comparatively, and a surprisingly high impact elasticity. [[Silver]] is in the middle, still having more density than steel, yet half that of platinum. Its impact elasticity is much lower than steel's, but higher than platinum's. Silver is the densest weapons-grade metal. It is also much more accessible, as platinum is not a weapons-grade metal, meaning it must be made into weapons exclusively through [[strange moods]].
		+
		+	<u>'''Platinum vs Steel:'''</u>
		+	Note: The number is the amount of wins it had out of 25, then the percentage of wins.
		+
		+	''Platinum''
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Skill & Armour !! Unarmoured !! Armoured
		+	\|-
		+	\| Unskilled \|\| 9, 36% \|\| 8, 32%
		+	\|-
		+	\| Grand Master \|\| 17, 68% \|\| 16, 64%
		+	\|}
		+
		+	''Steel''
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Skill & Armour !! Unarmoured !! Armoured
		+	\|-
		+	\| Unskilled \|\| 16, 64%% \|\| 17, 68%
		+	\|-
		+	\| Grand Master \|\| 8, 32% \|\| 9, 36%
		+	\|}
		+
		+	<u>'''Silver vs Steel:'''</u>
		+
		+	''Silver''
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Skill & Armour !! Unarmoured !! Armoured
		+	\|-
		+	\| Unskilled \|\| 10, 40% \|\| 10, 40%
		+	\|-
		+	\| Grand Master \|\| 19, 76% \|\| 21, 84%
		+	\|}
		+
		+	''Steel''
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Skill & Armour !! Unarmoured !! Armoured
		+	\|-
		+	\| Unskilled \|\| 15, 60% \|\| 15, 60%
		+	\|-
		+	\| Grand Master \|\| 6, 24% \|\| 4, 16%
		+	\|}
		+
		+	<u>'''Conclusions:'''</u>
		+	From this data we can make a few crucial inferences. First of all, at low skill levels silver and platinum's weight is a net loss, as it wears the dwarf out faster, and the decreased hit-rate of unskilled dwarves means that a lot of the extra damage is wasted. At high skill levels, the weight is a net gain, as the reduced stamina drain of skilled dwarves and their increased hit-rate leads to the weight giving an extreme damage boost compared to the steel.
		+	We can also infer that platinum's increased density is more detrimental than beneficial, even at grand master level, and silver is a better choice.
		+	Finally, we can infer that at higher levels, for example legendary +20, platinum's damage may surpass the stamina loss, leading it to be more effective than silver. There is, unfortunately, no convenient way to test this theory as arena mode only allows up to grand master skill.
		+	It is also worth noting that high density warhammers, whether they are in the hands of skilled or unskilled dwarves, will offer much greater burst damage, meaning that if the dwarf can kill their opponent before getting tired, they will perform much better than lower density metals. This is particularly true for squads of warhammer dwarves, as an entire squad's quick burst of damage before tiring is likely enough to kill many things.
		+
		+	<u>''Combat Testing''</u>
		+	After a quick test, [[minotaurs]] can be dispatched by a squad of dwarves, unskilled and skilled with platinum warhammers, with the unskilled dwarves taking one death, and the skilled dwarves taking zero damage. [[Bronze colossuses]] easily dispatch the squads, both skilled and unskilled, as it appears their weaponry is unable to damage it. [[Dragons]] are also too strong for the squads, though the deaths were exclusively from the [[dragonfire]], meaning a squad with better [[shield user]] skill would likely have won. [[Rocs]], being the generally-considered weakest of the [[megabeasts]], was taken out with zero injuries by the skilled squad, and with 5 losses by the unskilled squad. Finally, a [[hydra]] was able to fully dispatch an unskilled squad, but could not inflict even a single injury upon the skilled one.
		+	A squad of unskilled dwarves with only [[iron]] [[spears]] was still able to kill the roc with less losses, only 3, but considering blunt damage's main weakness is pure size, the hammerdwarves did surprisingly well. Against armoured enemies, they would likely fare better than any other weapon.

@@ Line 2,273: / Line 2,273: @@
 |}
+<u>'''Comparison of differently armed dwarves:'''</u>
 {| class="wikitable sortable"
 |-
@@ Line 2,288: / Line 2,286: @@
 | #4: Warhammer dwarves || 144 || 72% || 310
 |}

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:12, 15 May 2024
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	<u>'''Initial setup:'''</u> 3 dwarves with skill level 9(professional) in fighter, dodger, armor user, shield user, observer and discipline, skill level 6(talented) in biting, kicking, striking and wrestling, and skill level 9 in the skill for their weapon(axedwarf, speardwarf, etc.) are tested. They are given an iron breastplate, iron greaves, high boots, and gauntlets, iron shields and helms, as well as an iron warhammer/battle axe/short sword/spear. The dragon had a level 6 skill in observer, biter, archer, fighter, striker and dodger, which are the default ones for a dragon spawned in the arena.		<u>'''Initial setup:'''</u> 3 dwarves with skill level 9(professional) in fighter, dodger, armor user, shield user, observer and discipline, skill level 6(talented) in biting, kicking, striking and wrestling, and skill level 9 in the skill for their weapon(axedwarf, speardwarf, etc.) are tested. They are given an iron breastplate, iron greaves, high boots, and gauntlets, iron shields and helms, as well as an iron warhammer/battle axe/short sword/spear. The dragon had a level 6 skill in observer, biter, archer, fighter, striker and dodger, which are the default ones for a dragon spawned in the arena.
	They are put in a 4x4 room with the dragon in one corner and the dwarves in the opposite one. This is done in 40 rooms, and repeated 5 times for each weapon.		They are put in a 4x4 room with the dragon in one corner and the dwarves in the opposite one. This is done in 40 rooms, and repeated 5 times for each weapon.
		+
		+	<u>'''Results:'''</u>
		+
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Side & Creature !! Wins(*note) !! Percentage Win !! Survivors total
		+	\|-
		+	\| #1: Dragon \|\| 56 \|\| 28% \|\| 56/200
		+	\|-
		+	\| #2: 3 Warhammer dwarves \|\| 144 \|\| 72% \|\| 310/600
		+	\|}
		+
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Side & Creature !! Wins(*note) !! Percentage Win !! Survivors total
		+	\|-
		+	\| #1: Dragon \|\| 24 \|\| 12% \|\| 24/200
		+	\|-
		+	\| #2: 3 Battle axe dwarves \|\| 176 \|\| 88% \|\| 474/600
		+	\|}
		+
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Side & Creature !! Wins(*note) !! Percentage Win !! Survivors total
		+	\|-
		+	\| #1: Dragon \|\| 18 \|\| 9% \|\| 18/200
		+	\|-
		+	\| #2: 3 Sword dwarves \|\| 182 \|\| 91% \|\| 514/600
		+	\|}
		+
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Side & Creature !! Wins(*note) !! Percentage Win !! Survivors total
		+	\|-
		+	\| #1: Dragon \|\| 7 \|\| 3.5% \|\| 7/200
		+	\|-
		+	\| #2: 3 Spear dwarves \|\| 193 \|\| 96.5% \|\| 511/600
		+	\|}
		+
		+
		+
		+	Comparison of differently armed dwarves:
		+	{\| class="wikitable sortable"
		+	\|-
		+	! Weapon !! Wins + ties !! Percentage win or tie !! Survivors(out of 600)
		+	\|-
		+	\| #1: Spear dwarves \|\| 193 \|\| 96.5% \|\| 511
		+	\|-
		+	\| #2: Sword dwarves \|\| 182 \|\| 91% \|\| 514
		+	\|-
		+	\| #3: Battle axe dwarves \|\| 176 \|\| 88% \|\| 474
		+	\|-
		+	\| #4: Warhammer dwarves \|\| 144 \|\| 72% \|\| 310
		+	\|}

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:48, 15 May 2024
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	== Best weapon to fight dragons (tested by: Mimi-limonite) ==		== Best weapon to fight dragons (tested by: Mimi-limonite) ==
−	3 ~~dwarwes~~ with full iron armor + shields and decent skills are set against 1 default dragon. 4 variations are tested: swords, spears, warhammers and axes.	+	3 dwarves with full iron armor + shields and decent skills are set against 1 default dragon. 4 variations are tested: swords, spears, warhammers and axes.
		+
		+	<u>'''Times run:'''</u> 200, each, 800 total
		+
		+	<u>'''Initial setup:'''</u> 3 dwarves with skill level 9(professional) in fighter, dodger, armor user, shield user, observer and discipline, skill level 6(talented) in biting, kicking, striking and wrestling, and skill level 9 in the skill for their weapon(axedwarf, speardwarf, etc.) are tested. They are given an iron breastplate, iron greaves, high boots, and gauntlets, iron shields and helms, as well as an iron warhammer/battle axe/short sword/spear. The dragon had a level 6 skill in observer, biter, archer, fighter, striker and dodger, which are the default ones for a dragon spawned in the arena.
		+	They are put in a 4x4 room with the dragon in one corner and the dwarves in the opposite one. This is done in 40 rooms, and repeated 5 times for each weapon.

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:33, 15 May 2024
Line 2,224:		Line 2,224:

	In no sample set of 100 combats was a statistically significant difference from equality of the groups observed. Furthermore at low and medium weapon skill levels the medium-armored dwarves performed somewhat better. These results are consistent with the advice that for military dwarves with low armor skill, the encumbrance of wearing multiple pieces of 15+ weight armor makes the extra protection not worth it. However, the difference does not appear to be backbreaking, metaphorically speaking. For comparison, in Neckromancer's win ratio tests above, a naked but shielded axedwarf with 2 ranks in each relevant skill defeated a similar dwarf with 1 rank in each relevant skill 83 out of 100 times.		In no sample set of 100 combats was a statistically significant difference from equality of the groups observed. Furthermore at low and medium weapon skill levels the medium-armored dwarves performed somewhat better. These results are consistent with the advice that for military dwarves with low armor skill, the encumbrance of wearing multiple pieces of 15+ weight armor makes the extra protection not worth it. However, the difference does not appear to be backbreaking, metaphorically speaking. For comparison, in Neckromancer's win ratio tests above, a naked but shielded axedwarf with 2 ranks in each relevant skill defeated a similar dwarf with 1 rank in each relevant skill 83 out of 100 times.
		+
		+	= v50 (v50.11) tests =
		+
		+	== Best weapon to fight dragons (tested by: Mimi-limonite) ==
		+	3 dwarwes with full iron armor + shields and decent skills are set against 1 default dragon. 4 variations are tested: swords, spears, warhammers and axes.

@@ Line 2,219: / Line 2,219: @@
 Weapon skill likely affects parrying chance as well as momentum, so varying skill level ultimately influenced combat length, and therefore the importance of fatigue, in an unknown way. Collapse from over-exertion was common.
-The 95% confidence intervals for these results are about +-10 dwarves.
+The 95% confidence intervals for these results are about +-10 combats.
 <u>'''Tester's conclusions:'''</u>
 In no sample set of 100 combats was a statistically significant difference from equality of the groups observed. Furthermore at low and medium weapon skill levels the medium-armored dwarves performed somewhat better. These results are consistent with the advice that for military dwarves with low armor skill, the encumbrance of wearing multiple pieces of 15+ weight armor makes the extra protection not worth it. However, the difference does not appear to be backbreaking, metaphorically speaking. For comparison, in Neckromancer's win ratio tests above, a naked but shielded axedwarf with 2 ranks in each relevant skill defeated a similar dwarf with 1 rank in each relevant skill 83 out of 100 times.

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:48, 27 February 2023
Line 2,212:		Line 2,212:

	The objective of the test is to study some claims made in [[Armor#Encumbrance]]. Older testing indicated an unskilled peasant wearing heavy armor may fight at two-thirds the speed of a naked dwarf [[http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111414.0\| link]].		The objective of the test is to study some claims made in [[Armor#Encumbrance]]. Older testing indicated an unskilled peasant wearing heavy armor may fight at two-thirds the speed of a naked dwarf [[http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111414.0\| link]].
		+
		+	"Full Steel Armor" is used to mean breastplate, greaves, helm, gauntlets, high boots, and mail shirt.

	Steel short swords wielded by typical dwarves will not pierce steel mail shirts. Instead the benefit of shaped armor in this situation was to decrease blunt damage from torso and leg strikes.		Steel short swords wielded by typical dwarves will not pierce steel mail shirts. Instead the benefit of shaped armor in this situation was to decrease blunt damage from torso and leg strikes.

@@ Line 2,213: / Line 2,213: @@
 The objective of the test is to study some claims made in [[Armor#Encumbrance]]. Older testing indicated an unskilled peasant wearing heavy armor may fight at two-thirds the speed of a naked dwarf [[http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111414.0| link]].
-Steel short swords wielded by typical dwarves will not pierce steel mail shirts. Instead the benefit of shaped armor in this situation was to decrease blunt (and twisting?) damage from torso and leg strikes.
+Steel short swords wielded by typical dwarves will not pierce steel mail shirts. Instead the benefit of shaped armor in this situation was to decrease blunt damage from torso and leg strikes.
 Weapon skill likely affects parrying chance as well as momentum, so varying skill level ultimately influenced combat length, and therefore the importance of fatigue, in an unknown way. Collapse from over-exertion was common.