Editing DF2014 Talk:Tree

So, before anyone works on the tree page here, what should we do? Do we need gifs of new trees since I could make some but I dont feel like writing an article. -- I suggest setting up the tree part as a cross section, showing what the roots are and such. Also, we could change the current tree icon(spades or clubs) to the 1/4 signs since its the leaf colours that matter <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:209.197.142.167|209.197.142.167]]</small> 02:56, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
:I suggest making a new version of the table template that shows all tiles for each species, though I'm not sure what would be the best way to organize it.--[[User:Amena Ralikema|Amena Ralikema]] ([[User talk:Amena Ralikema|talk]]) 13:12, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

What the current way of organising it, with the root trunk, leavs is fairly good. I approve of it. also praise Amena Ralikema! The tree page is looking quite better- oddstranger

== Burning trees ==
Burning trees collapse, and forest fires cause immense pause+recenter spam of trees collapsing.
Perhaps something to mention(and warn for forest fires, aside from the obvious dangers). [[Special:Contributions/83.83.21.167|83.83.21.167]] 15:18, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

== Fruit ==
How do you get the fruits the new trees drop? <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:66.177.96.41|66.177.96.41]]</small> 14:52, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

In adventurer mode i believe you can eat directly from the tree with e or use g to pick up the fruit form the tree. I dont think it's in fortress mode since he mentioned hes still working on harvesting.-stranger <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:72.38.18.124|72.38.18.124]]</small> 13:09, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

== Cutting Trees in Fortress Mode  ==

I'd like to put this bit of page for discussing and confirming... well, what's in the title.

Some things I've noticed so far:

* when cutting a tree at a trunk tile '''above''' the ground level ( = the lowest z-level the tree occupies), it's possible to produce some sort of a cave-in; presumably, the woodcutter chops the trunk that s/he's standing on.
** Can anyone replicate this behavior?
** Has anyone received any quasi-cave-ins by cutting trees at ground level? --[[User:StrikaAmaru|StrikaAmaru]] 15:25, 12 July 2014‎ (UTC)
:What do you mean by "cave in"? A message about something collapsing? I remember seeing something like that on the bug tracker. --[[User:Amena Ralikema|Amena Ralikema]] ([[User talk:Amena Ralikema|talk]]) 15:31, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
:: Yes, exactly like a cave-in; my woodcutter was happily chopping a branch, then I get the message, the game re-centers, and the dorf is on the ground, stunned but uninjured. Actually, when considering that cutting a branch cuts down the whole tree, a cave-in is exactly what happened: she was sitting on the tree, then the tree stopped existing. Cue one dropping dwarf. I'm inclined to think this is normal behavior, but still something that we need to take into account. BTW: the bug about cave-ins is probably about the completely unrelated, and definitely buggy, random "Something has collapsed on the surface!" messages that keep popping up with no rhyme or reason. --[[User:StrikaAmaru|StrikaAmaru]] 17:15, 13 July 2014‎ (UTC)
::* Yes, I've experienced something like that in the current version. Maybe not the exact same thing, but I think it's worth mentioning. Repro steps, 1. dig out the root under a tree. 2. chop down the tree. 3. watch one of the logs fall in a hole where the stump once was. It's already recorded on the bug tracker with a few related tree shenanigans, I took a look. It's id is {{bugl|8469}}:  if you want to look it up [[User:ReturningUser|ReturningUser]] ([[User talk:ReturningUser|talk]]) 18:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
* Trees grow every year; a freshly-matured tree only extends 2 z-levels, and produces comparatively little wood (7 in my case). Still has fruit, even though it was a sapling when flowering season passed.--[[User:StrikaAmaru|StrikaAmaru]] 15:25, 12 July 2014‎ (UTC)
:As for the fruiting, I don't think pollination is implemented yet. :) Fruit just grows at a set time.--[[User:Amena Ralikema|Amena Ralikema]] ([[User talk:Amena Ralikema|talk]]) 15:31, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
::More interested in verifying tree growth across multiple years; the fruit thing was a minor quirk, seeing how fruits are useless now :( --[[User:StrikaAmaru|StrikaAmaru]] 17:20, 13 July 2014‎ (UTC)

== I need help reading the raws ==

I have a problem reading the raws: the new table format requires tiles for the different growths, but the characters I've extracted from the raws don't match what's displayed in the game, especially for flowers/growths. I think there may be different tiles for growths if they are on or off the tree. Any idea how to interpret the tags?--[[User:Amena Ralikema|Amena Ralikema]] ([[User talk:Amena Ralikema|talk]]) 08:21, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

== Explosive leaves and fruit ==

I've lost several dwarves in a freak Oak leaf shedding accident; some sort of bug makes tree-leaves and fruit about the same weight as a constructed wall-- with the same amount of impact force that it could cause from falling such a height.

An oak dispersed its leaves normally after autumn rolled around, but little did my passing stone hauler know what he was about to become.

The force of the falling oak-leaves shattered the dwarf's skull and sent his fingers, arms, a leg, and teeth flying in several directions. Each possessed the force of some carnal meteor that burrowed through the mess of wood and bone of the surrounding environment-- a tooth had even gone so far as to destroy a hovering, unwary Kea many z-levels above the intial impact. The dwarf's left arm struck and killed my only carpenter, going so far as to pulp both his head and upper-body-- his already dead corpse being sent off my drawbridge's unsealed walls and into the abyss. The other arm flew several feet away and into the canopy of another Oak tree as though an omen of things to come. The poor stone-pusher's fingers, somehow detached from the arms they once occupied by the velocity of the impact, simply fell to the ground beneath the squashed dwarf. None could find his missing left-leg; some believed it ended up somewhere inside the unfortunate dwarf's remaining body, others believe it transcended space and time with the sheer amount of speed it acquired from the initial earth-shattering oak leaf-fall.

It's not limited to fruit-baring trees you see. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:184.166.69.80|184.166.69.80]]</small>

== Forrests on world map ==
The old tree tiles are still used for world map forests containing that particular tree, so that information needs to be displayed somewhere. I don't know how to modify the table to do that. [[User:King Mir|King Mir]] ([[User talk:King Mir|talk]]) 20:01, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
:Already listed on [[map legend]]. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 20:13, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
::It's not really correct, or complete. Map forrests use the tile of the tree they contain, plus 3 special tiles. See here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137096.msg5481446#msg5481446. Ergo you need to list each tree's tile somewhere. I suppose that information could be put on that page instead of here. [[User:King Mir|King Mir]] ([[User talk:King Mir|talk]]) 20:32, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

== Destructive tree growth ==

Tree growth can deconstruct buildings. I had a small "indoor/light" area that I had bridged over for indoorish farming of above-ground crops, and refuse. A few tiles weren't buildings/stockpiles, and one ended up growing a sapling. Subsequently, I witnessed a spectacular explosion when the tree burst through the ceiling, deconstructing it and sending blocks and logs flying. I didn't get any alert or auto-pause of the sort you get when trees spontaneously collapse on the surface. Probably a fact worth noting in the page. This might also be related to why there are spontaneous collapses of trees&mdash;trees growing across portions of each other, and causing tree deconstruction?  --[[User:Jaygengelbach|Jaygengelbach]] ([[User talk:Jaygengelbach|talk]]) 05:10, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

:Trees bursting through ceilings are a bug that was supposedly fixed. If it's still happening, it's not intended. Trees deconstructing things might not be. [[User:King Mir|King Mir]] ([[User talk:King Mir|talk]]) 05:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

== Time needed to harvest trees ==

Hi guys,
how long does it take for a sapling to grow into a full-grown tree that can be chopped down? I cannot find this information in the thread and think it would be interesting to add it!--[[User:Afghani84|Afghani84]] ([[User talk:Afghani84|talk]]) 15:01, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

== Trees supporting land ==

I'm not 100% certain how or if this is working, but I appear to have a section of surface being supported by trees.  I have embarked on a heavily forested map and dug out a section of the map 1 z level down, then channeled out the surface area around it cleanly separating it from the supporting surface tiles.  When I pulled the lever to yank out the support, it continued to dangle, apparently suspended by nothing.  There are some trees still on the surface area, and I think their branches may be what is supporting my floating land.  Is this a known issue or expected behavior? [[Special:Contributions/50.202.1.113|50.202.1.113]] 17:38, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Update: I went ahead and cleared the trees still on the "floating" surface and when I yanked out the support this time everything collapsed as expected.  Seems the branches were what was supporting the tiles. [[Special:Contributions/50.202.1.113|50.202.1.113]] 14:28, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

== Stuck Dwarfs ==
In the current release, I had a dwarf stuck in a tree (I think he chased a pet into it). It paused and re-centered on him, and he was over a vary small murky pool. Not knowing what else to do, I sent a woodcutter to cut it down. he fell in the pool, but was still conscious and unharmed from the fall, so he was able to pull himself out. It might be useful to note this possibility --[[Special:Contributions/50.103.112.214|50.103.112.214]] 08:28, 24 July 2017 (UTC).
:Added as a bug.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 18:10, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

== Cut Trees Removing Ground Tiles ==
This bug seems pretty major to me, it seems like not much is made of it on the main page. A FB that has fire could potentially burn down a tree over a tunnel or room in your fort, thus opening it to fun. I noticed a FB had pathed into a closed-off portion of my fort(luckily it was a part made specifically for trapping cavern stuff). It also managed to path diagonally down a level through a natural floor and a smoothed wall(the tree that was cut was directly over a smoothed wall, with an open space next to it, and surrounded by natural floors. Definitely has the potential to be a fortress-ender.--[[User:Struck Down|Struck Down]] ([[User talk:Struck Down|talk]]) 07:34, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

:I included this info in the [[Tree#Chopping down trees|Chopping down trees]] section. You can edit/add more to it if you'd like. I can't visualize your second part very well, but if you're referring to creatures doing an impossible diagonal pathing between z-levels, I think that is related to {{bug|8383}}. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 08:31, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

::The bug is related to the problem, but it doesn't go far enough. It seems that they can path through any floorless tile diagonally down to an open space. It makes sense that the reporter mentioned down stairs as they puncture the "floor" part of a tile. Constructed walls automatically put this floor layer in the level above them but for a smoothed wall, the floor is absent, leaving an empty space. I suspect that constructing a wall under a tree and doing this would leave a floor of the material the wall was made of instead of open space(will test when I can). For an illustration of the pathing:
:::X - Open space<br>
:::O - Wall<br>
:::F - Floor<br>

:::Z TOP:<br>
:::FFFF<br>
:::FXFF<br>
:::FFFF<br>

:::Z BOTTOM:<br>
:::OOFF<br>
:::OOFF<br>
:::OOFF<br>

::FB is able to path to the 3rd column from the left on Z bottom from the X on Z top. Under normal circumstances, the walls would form a floor, preventing passage. It seems once the floor is removed, the game treats it as any other diagonal movement(however impossible it would be to visualize a FB squeezing through a crack the size of a cat).--[[User:Struck Down|Struck Down]] ([[User talk:Struck Down|talk]]) 09:13, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

:::I see now. Constructing a wall under a tree and cutting it down will indeed leave a '+' floor tile above. So basically:

<diagram fg="0:1" bg="7:1">
                   Disallows Diagonal Movement
                  ┌─                        ─┐
                  │                          │
    Open space <──┤                          ├──> Open Space
(where trunk was) │                          │
                  │                          │
                  └─                        ─┘
         Floor <──── ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓[#4:1][@0:1]↓[#@]▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓ ────> Floor
                  ┌─ ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒[#4:1]↓[#]           ─┐
                  │  ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒             │
  Natural Wall <──┤  ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒             ├──> Open Space
(or Constructed)  │  ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒             │
                  │  ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒             │
                  └─ ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒            ─┘
         Floor <──── ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓ ────> Floor
 
 
                    Allows Diagonal Movement
                  ┌─                        ─┐
                  │                          │
    Open space <──┤                          ├──> Open Space
(where trunk was) │                          │
                  │                          │
                  └─                        ─┘
    Open space <────           [#2:1]↓[#]▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓ ────> Floor
                  ┌─ ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒[#2:1]↓[#]           ─┐
                  │  ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒             │
 Smoothed Wall <──┤  ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒             ├──> Open Space
                  │  ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒             │
                  │  ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒             │
                  └─ ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒            ─┘
         Floor <──── ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓ ────> Floor
</diagram>

:::And any locomotion that allows omnidirectional movement, e.g. swimming, flying, and climbing, will allow creatures to move diagonally between the open space (floor) and open space (wall). I will add this to the page as well, but won't go too far in depth about it. This info is more associated with articles such as [[Smoothing]], [[Path]], [[Tile]], etc., and the in-depth explanations should go to there instead. Thanks for bringing this up. I am also going to post some of my additional findings in the bug report page, so check that out. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 14:07, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

::::Excellent work! Your diagram is much nicer, and illustrates it exactly. I figured out this quirk many years ago after having a FB path through my main stairway which seemed sealed to me at the time. I suspect something like this is happening in many of the alleged "teleporting FB" bugs. The difference between smooth walls, and constructed walls was new for me though. At least, I assume this is an issue with smooth walls, because this issue doesn't show up on the surface level, even on revealed tiles. Soil and presumably rough rock would not produce empty space in the above situation. --[[User:Struck Down|Struck Down]] ([[User talk:Struck Down|talk]]) 21:31, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

:::::I never got around to post the findings to the bug report, but {{bug|8383}} has been fixed, so the impossible Z-axis movement part may be fixed. I'm not positive that the floorless smoothed wall was fixed too though, that's most likely a bug on its own. I have yet to confirm the results though, which I will be doing. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 01:25, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

:::::Actually the floorless wall bug may have been fixed too; see {{bug|7127}}. Still need to verify – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 02:17, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

== Elven tree quota & subterranean mushroom trees ==

Subterranean mushroom trees still count towards Elven tree quotas, don't they? I'm confused because current wiki pages do not mention this, despite how some older wiki pages suggest as much. For that matter, why doesn't the [[Tree]] page at least mention elven tree quotas in passing?

For example, on [[23a:Elf]] it says, "Although [[Tower-cap|tower-caps]] are giant mushrooms, they are considered trees by the elves and thus are not acceptable." And the [[23a:Tree]] page has a whole section for [[23a:Tree#Elven%5FDiplomats|Elven Diplomats]] which at least mentions elven tree quotas.

Currently, the only mentions of elves on the Tree page is the [[DF2014:Tree#Fruit|Fruit]] sub-section, which says that elves bring fruit to trade, and the [[DF2014:Tree#Growing%5Ftrees|Growing trees]] sub-section, which bemoans that elves fail to understand how new saplings randomly regrow. The latter is a '''loosely implied reference''' to elven tree quotas without explaining it or even using the word "quota". Indeed, it '''seems out of place''' as an in-joke that belongs in a "D for Dwarf" humor sub-section.

Because tree harvesting and the attempted trade of wood products is so important to elf diplomacy, I find the lack of even a mention on this page to be a rather significant oversight. And I '''strongly''' recommend how subterranean mushrooms are counted as "trees" as far as elves are concerned should also be mentioned on the tree page. After all, the wiki is relied upon by new players as a source of information and the lack of this mention would likely lead some to assume otherwise. One might argue that such info only belongs on the [[Elf]] page. '''At the least''', this should be mentioned on the [[Elf]] page, if not both.

If nobody replies to this talk in 2 weeks time, I'll take that as nobody having an objection and as permission to add this info. [[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]] ([[User talk:Thundercraft|talk]]) 03:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
@@ Line 147: / Line 147: @@
 If nobody replies to this talk in 2 weeks time, I'll take that as nobody having an objection and as permission to add this info. [[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]] ([[User talk:Thundercraft|talk]]) 03:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
-:You're correct in saying this is an oversight with the current pages, yes. Feel free to add this info to whatever pages you think are necessary, you don't need permission to complete pages with factual content. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 12:33, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
-== Merging old and "new" trees ==
-So, DF2014 was five years ago, and new trees aren't really new anymore.
-Therefore, the lists should be merged like they are on creatures page; one list of aboveground trees and one of underground trees.
-The note which file they're in is not entirely useless for modding, but would be far more time-saving on creatures, and should be on individual pages in any case if it is kept at all.
-Yay or nay?
-[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 20:13, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
-Yes, do it. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 10:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
-Done, and sorted by biome/name [[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 10:38, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
-== Tree template "align" value ==
-I propose any alignment restrictions to be listed under biome column instead, and that the "align" table column removed, like how it isn't present with creatures - currently it only matters for 3 aboveground and zero underground trees.
-[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 10:37, 16 November 2019 (UTC)