Editing v0.31 Talk:Bentgirder

The forum thread is here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58513.0

== Channel for a farm ==
I'm newb and following this tutorial and I seem to have misunderstood the section on setting up a channel for a farm.  I set up a room underground attached to my main chamber then did a channel to it.  Needless to say the entire thing flooded.

:That is exactly what you need.  Once the water dries, then you can build a farm plot on the muddy ground.  Also, I noticed your other question, so here is the answer to that one, too.
:Jobs are done when the dwarf wants to do them.  If the carpenter also has other labors enabled (say, food hauling), then it may take them a while before they make the bed.  Some jobs have really high priority, others less so.  (Which makes sense, right? If you don't haul the food, it will rot, but if you don't make a bed, then it doesn't really matter).  If you really want a job done quickly, disable all the other labors for the dwarf.--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 21:03, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 21:03, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

== To Do ==

Sazir's section is the only one still empty. Morul needs a little more work. I might move the section on assigning nobles into Morul or Meng's section. 

The page is getting overly large. It is belarded with hanging rolls of text. I'd like to split each lesson into a separate page. Before I do that, I'll talk to the admins about getting a namespace. 
--[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 02:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

:I think the key is to provide the start which you've done, trying to keep it simple.  The 40d tutorial had named the dwarfs, as an option. To me, the rest of the wiki serves the roll of "now I've got the basics, how does milking/various industries/war/etc go."  I think pictures here and there are a great idea. Do you need to worry about init settings?  (varied ground, hidden engravings, etc) That was tough for me in the beginning.--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 04:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Sazir is done. The only blank part is the bit on constructing walls, which I might delete. Trading is referred to three times, and I'd like to edit out any redundancy. I'd like to make the "Keys used" block standard in each section. (Who did that, BTW? Stand up and take the credit.)  --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 06:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Constructions - Done! --[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 19:54, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Would it be worth it to mention a few of the oddities of construction in the appropriate section?

While it would diminish the Fun and be a bit redundant of other articles, the intention of a tutorial is to introduce players to the basic mechanics and oddities of a system, and I could see how someone following this guide would get frustrated over stuck dwarves or accidentally removing a supporting wall (if they assume there are failsafes in the AI). I'd be happy to flesh this section out, provided others thought it a good idea (perhaps give an example mini-project akin to the earlier sections of the walkthrough). --[[User:Barrow|Barrow]] 17:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
:Go for it.  It is a wiki after all. A section right after the construction section, maybe one that mentions "suspended" things.  Other things, if they are short, could go in the FAQ.--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 11:53, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

== The Big Split ==

I'm going to split the tutorial into ten chunks. One for each lesson, plus one for the FAQ. I'm working on a template that will unify the articles. --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 04:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Like so: [[Template:BentgirderTOC]]

== Pictures ==

I think it is looking very promising so far. Please keep it up. Maybe a few pictures would be great. --[[User:Used|Used]] 18:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

:I'm working on adding more pictures! I never take enough screen shots while I'm playing. I need to re-start my game so the screen shots match what the player will see. Anything in particular that needs to be illustrated? --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 22:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

:: Yeah, I know what you mean. I always plan to take screenshots to make some before-after kinda stuff of my fortress, but I always forget it in the process. I'm going to write my comments on the Bentgirder page itself, so I don't have to describe where to place the stuff. Greeting --[[User:Used|Used]] 08:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


== Problems and Nitpicks ==

There are a few things that I would have done differently, if I was going to do it over again. If you're aware of any flaws in the site or the expedition, please add to the list. 

* There may be no human civs in range, meaning no human merchants. (I haven't gotten any.)
* The site has no flux. Steel-making is a more important part of the game in 2010. 
* The site freezes in winter. 
* Kubuk should have had [[Leader]] skill as well as [[Teacher]]
:I can understand the first three.  What do the leader and teacher skills really do, anyway?  Why would you pick them?--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 19:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

== From "Meet Morul" ==

Also, I was going to work on this but I've already put quite a bit of input and I don't know if it's acceptable.  If you want me to continue, let me know if what I've put so far is usable and what you want me to change! ~Ryun 

:Please, keep writing, as long as you don't mind being edited! --17:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC) Strangething

==Mugs are not the most efficient==

I disagree strongly that mugs are the most efficient stone craft. Even though they make three, the sum of the three mugs is equal to a produced craft, toy, or instrument. Please check this, I am relying on 40d experience here.  (They might be slightly different due to three quality modifiers vs a single one, but that doesn't matter once everything is masterful) So, on the value created front they are equal. However, now you have ''three'' tasks of things to haul to the stockpile, making them considerably worse/more of a pain then the others.

In armor, a single bar of metal can produce many types of armor.  There is substantial difference between the selling price of a pair of leggings (or greaves) which are the most valuable to those of a cap (lower on the scale).  This is for 31.10, so I haven't checked for the most recent update.  Basic take home message is if you want to set up an industry, you need to look at all the factors.
:In 40d, a mug had the same base value as a craft/instrument/toy, though they were significantly heavier and thus you couldn't fit nearly as many into a single bin. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 18:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
::I just checked this.  Mugs are the most cost efficient. mugs>crafts>musical instruments & toys simply because of the number created.--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 11:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Not exactly. Mugs are also the heaviest, and crafts are created three-at-a-time too. Since the value is the same, crafts are more efficient due to lower weight and identical quantity. --[[Special:Contributions/174.113.156.80|174.113.156.80]] 01:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

== Population Growth ==

I've never had a fortress triple in population from one wave of migrants. Much less quadruple. Perhaps I just expand slower than most, but I usually count on about 7 in the first wave, and around 14 in the second one. From what I've seen of 2010, population seems to grow more slowly than in previous versions. Has anyone else seen these huge migrant waves? --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 18:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
:My experience is similar to your experience - 7 the first wave, ~14 or so the second.  I have my pop-cap set at 10, so I don't usually get anymore after that.  I don't think wealth plays a role, as I had enough to buy out the entire first caravan (roasts!).
:I don't know about population growth in general, though.  I would have said the opposite.  I played a fortress (in 2010) where every winter (as long as I had food) I'd let the dwarfs do nothing.  Man they got busy. Kids. Lots of kids.  I quit when the FPS got to be terrible.  
:I still see pathing issues.  Like when a dwarf comes into the area, they'll take 7-8 steps in one direction and then change to another.  Maybe my fortress design is tricky to path through?  The entrance to my fortress isn't complex, though, so who knows!--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 19:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

== Section Headings That Contain Commands (i.e.: "Fortress Status: Z") ==

I'd like to see the commands in the headings use the case of the actual command: "Fortress Status: z".<br />I'm new to DF, and tried several times to check fortress status with "Z" before reading further that the command is "z" instead. I would've edited it myself but I'm new here and didn't want to go busting things up without knowing if there was a good reason to use capital letters in the headings.
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-==Bentgirder 3.0==
+The forum thread is here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58513.0
-While the old save file can be loaded in the most resent Dwarf Fortress, I have my doubts about using such an old save. There may be unforeseen glitches, and I don't want to inflict that on a new player. We need a whole new world for Bentgirder. In fact, I think we need a lot of new worlds. For that, I need help. Here's what to do:
-* Generate a new world in DF 31.25. A small world is fine. Note what parameters you use, if it's not the default.
-* Find a reasonable embark location. It doesn't have to be perfect. The important things are lots of trees and no aquifer.
-* Prepare an expedition more or less like the one in the tutorial. That means a miner, a carpenter, a planter, a mechanic, and a mason. The other two are flexible. Starting with a surgeon may have been a waste of points. Take plenty of food and booze. Don't forget the cat, and a mating pair of dogs. Chickens might be a good addition.
-* Name your fortress '''Bentgirder'''.
-* As soon as the game starts, save and quit. Make a zip of the region directory.
-* Restart DF and load the save. Take some screen shots of the unit list, the status screen, and profiles of all seven dwarfs.
-* Now play the heck out of the game, and see what's there.
-Some of these worlds are going to have unpredictable quirks that new players will have a hard time with. The idea is to make several worlds, and pick the best of them to be the official Bentgirder. Then we tweak the tutorial to match the new world. --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 04:26, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
-:I'm in.  I'm not sure what the screen shots are for.  You can generate those after the fact if it works out, since you have the original saves.[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 17:58, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
-==New Forum Thread==
-The old thread was mostly about the creation of Bentgirder. So I made a new one for the finished product.  [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74208.0 Official Bentgirder thread].
 == Channel for a farm ==
@@ Line 22: / Line 6: @@
 :That is exactly what you need.  Once the water dries, then you can build a farm plot on the muddy ground.  Also, I noticed your other question, so here is the answer to that one, too.
 :Jobs are done when the dwarf wants to do them.  If the carpenter also has other labors enabled (say, food hauling), then it may take them a while before they make the bed.  Some jobs have really high priority, others less so.  (Which makes sense, right? If you don't haul the food, it will rot, but if you don't make a bed, then it doesn't really matter).  If you really want a job done quickly, disable all the other labors for the dwarf.--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 21:03, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
+--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 21:03, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 == To Do ==
@@ Line 85: / Line 70: @@
 I've never had a fortress triple in population from one wave of migrants. Much less quadruple. Perhaps I just expand slower than most, but I usually count on about 7 in the first wave, and around 14 in the second one. From what I've seen of 2010, population seems to grow more slowly than in previous versions. Has anyone else seen these huge migrant waves? --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 18:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 :My experience is similar to your experience - 7 the first wave, ~14 or so the second.  I have my pop-cap set at 10, so I don't usually get anymore after that.  I don't think wealth plays a role, as I had enough to buy out the entire first caravan (roasts!).
-:: Also similar - Starting 7, then 2, then 7, then 20. The next two migrant waves brought nobody, despite doubling my fortress size, smoothing the entire thing, and buying out entire caravans, with gifts to spare. --[[User:Romeofalling|Romeofalling]] 07:06, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 :I don't know about population growth in general, though.  I would have said the opposite.  I played a fortress (in 2010) where every winter (as long as I had food) I'd let the dwarfs do nothing.  Man they got busy. Kids. Lots of kids.  I quit when the FPS got to be terrible.
 :I still see pathing issues.  Like when a dwarf comes into the area, they'll take 7-8 steps in one direction and then change to another.  Maybe my fortress design is tricky to path through?  The entrance to my fortress isn't complex, though, so who knows!--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 19:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 92: / Line 76: @@
 I'd like to see the commands in the headings use the case of the actual command: "Fortress Status: z".<br />I'm new to DF, and tried several times to check fortress status with "Z" before reading further that the command is "z" instead. I would've edited it myself but I'm new here and didn't want to go busting things up without knowing if there was a good reason to use capital letters in the headings.
-==Updated for most recent version==
-Does this need to be updated for the patches?  Specifically aren't the raws with the save game files?[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 00:44, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
-:The save has been updated to 31.18, as it says on the DFFD download page. If you use a graphics pack, that might require a raw file update. --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 01:03, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
-::Could I request an update to 31:19 please?
-:::Really, Bendgirder needs to be re-done with a whole new world and save file. I have a plan for that, but I don't have much time. After 31.20 is out, I'll make the big upgrade. In the meantime, we can fix the parts of the tutorial are totally obsolete, like the part on irrigation. --[[User:Strangething|Strangething]] 19:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)