Editing v0.34 Talk:Armor

== Layers ==
In different parts of the article, we have two different orderings of layers:
#Under < Over < Armour < Cover
#Under < Armour < Over < Cover
I'd assume the first is correct, but I've never played adventure mode, and I don't pay that close attention to see what my dwarves are wearing. If someone could confirm which order layers actually occur in, the incorrect line should be changed. --[[User:Timrem|Timrem]] 02:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

:The former is substantiated several times in pages from older-versions. Additionally, mail shirts are Over while breastplates are Armour. These both suggest that the order is indeed Under-Over-Armour-Cover. {{sign|2602:306:BC82:CDF0:49B7:7AEA:3321:6CFB}}

== Bars ==

Since .34 some metal weapons/armour take more than one bar to forge. Would it be suitable for someone to add the costs to the respective tables?

From my own experience (smelting done in game without mods right now);

:Weapons: 1 bar
:Gauntlets: 1 bar (for a matching pair)
:High Boot: 1 bar (for two)
:Shield: 1 bar
:Mail Shirt: 2 bars
:Greaves: 2 bars
:Breastplate: 3 bars
Others (namely low boots, leggings, caps, bucklers) unknown at the moment, but I can't imagine the less-covering counterparts taking more.

These values can probably be determined from the raws by someone more skilled than I, though i'm happy to experiment more to gather data.<br />
::"The number of bars needed to make a piece of metal armor is equal to the material size divided by 3."
:It's covered already in the article. Thanks, though. --[[Special:Contributions/74.102.139.234|74.102.139.234]] 12:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
::: It seems to me that most people who are looking at this wiki for some quick advice won't want to determine material size or divide by three. Might be a useful to write it out explicitly for us dolts. [[Special:Contributions/174.1.230.63|174.1.230.63]] 04:30, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
::::Partly because I agree with you, but mostly because I long for your affection, I've added the cost in bars to appropriate pieces of armor.  I think that it's only fair that you begin returning my letters now.  -- [[User:Vasiln|Vasiln]] 07:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

== Armor comparison ==

The armor page says that copper > iron > bronze > steel, but unless major changes have been made, I'm pretty sure bronze is worse than iron. Anyone confirm that bronze indeed outshines iron?
:A short session of testing in the arena of equally-skilled, equally-armed dwarves, one squad in bronze armor and the other in iron armor, ended with all bronze-wearing dwarves alive, and all iron-wearing dwarves dead. The order indicated on the page seems correct. --[[User:Timrem|Timrem]] 17:22, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

:Group tests with large control groups are not the best way to test materials, due to the outnumber snowball effect. I just did a 20-group test with 4vs4 per group, all competent with iron swords. It seems to be mostly a tie, with a <s>slight leaning</s> more major leaning* toward iron. It seems that both bronze and iron are near equal materials, with iron having a slight advantage due to its lighter weight. * I just tallied a few more tests that were in an unconsious-deflect deadlock and iron took the cake on all of them. 70% iron over bronze wins.--[[User:Acetech09|Acetech09]] 19:45, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
::Alright, thanks. I've not really done any arena testing before, and I wasn't really trying that hard to test this. I threw together a 1v1 and a 5v5 is all, sounds like you know better what you're doing. --[[User:Timrem|Timrem]] 21:45, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

:K. I'm about to rework the armor comparison chart a tiny bit to better reflect defensive properties.

An [[Talk:Bolt|experiment]] shows that candy is the worst metal armor against bolts. --[[User:Lcy03406|Lcy03406]] 05:57, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

== Shaped headgear and armor limits ==

With the changes to caps and masks, some of the examples of calculating armor limits have become invalid. Perhaps some Urist McEditor more prone to adventuring than myself and more enlightened on the subject could provide new examples? [[User:Earthfiredrake|Earthfiredrake]] 10:13, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I was going to make a post similar to yours, but I guess I'll just change the info myself. Caused me enough worry already.--[[Special:Contributions/173.3.16.92|173.3.16.92]] 22:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
*Someone's going to have to check my work though... I might just change the easiest parts.--[[Special:Contributions/173.3.16.92|173.3.16.92]] 22:31, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

== Foreign high boots ==

34.09 - I just discovered that my civ can not make high boots. In the equipment screen, it says (foreign) next to the high boot entry. I double checked by abandoning and choosing another civ to embark with. I found they had high boots on the embark list. I aborted and checked the first civ's embark and they didn't list high boots. --[[User:GoldenShadow|GoldenShadow]] 05:09, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
:I can't make high boots either in 34.11. Have not checked if others civ's can. [[User:Great Cthulhu|Great Cthulhu]] 21:57, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:This was noted in the changelog of 34.09. Lothion--[[Special:Contributions/124.181.89.8|124.181.89.8]] 06:15, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

== Throat Protection ==

v 34.11

I am seeing combat logs showing throat strikes on goblins being deflected by their mail shirts.  Has the coverage of the throat and possibly other facial areas been modified for better armor coverage.  Possibly depending on the layer designation?

I believe mail shirts have always protected areas such as the throat. This is reflected in the UPSTEP value of mail shirts. Lothion--[[Special:Contributions/124.181.89.8|124.181.89.8]] 06:19, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but throughout the article text claimsthat throat protection is magical and unavailable by metal other than adamantium cloth. It also attributes throat protection to capes (rather than cloaks).  I'm strikethru-ing these where I find them. [[Special:Contributions/98.212.197.213|98.212.197.213]] 06:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

== Mail shirts vs Breastplates ==

In recent dwarven !SCIENCE!, mail shirts were shown to be consistently better at defending against bolts than plate armor which did ''nothing'' to stop bolts. Link here: [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=116151.0]. Results were independantly verified with another study that occured at the same time. After reading through the results I think it is definately worth mentioning this on the page as I had been under the impression that breastplates are generally better. 

One of the authors of the study actually states: 
<blockquote>
Given my results to date, I propose that the best equipment for dwarves might be helm, breastplate, mail shirt, mail leggings, gauntlets and low boots. I do not know how mail leggings would compare to greaves for melee combat, but they are clearly better (but still don't really do that much) against arrows, and are also much lighter. Also, presumably high boots are preferable, but not readily available in fortress mode.
</blockquote>

However the breastplate is presumably for use in melee combat.
--[[User:Lothion|Lothion]] 06:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

:I've added a mention of the extent to which bolts (and whips) penetrate armor.  Feel free to revise it as necessary.  One of the !SCIEN!tists also posted some summaries at [[DF2012 Talk:Bolt]]. [[User:Emufarmers|Emufarmers]] 21:17, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

== Shields and Bucklers ==

Are there any advantages to using bucklers, aside from lighter weight and being cheaper to make? In older versions I recall bucklers being better for marksdwarves for reasons I can't fully recall, does that still apply in this version? Maybe I should've thought about which was better <i>before</i> outfitting my current fort's 50 marksdwarves with adamantine bucklers... --[[Special:Contributions/174.33.62.112|174.33.62.112]] 16:49, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

The reasons before were the substantial weight difference (50 vs 15) and the fact that they used to hold a second stack of bolts in their hand, which a buckler left free.
Now, as far as anyone seems to be able to tell, there's no reason not to use a (lightweight, eg leather or wood) shield. 
[[Special:Contributions/98.212.197.213|98.212.197.213]] 07:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 ::: It seems to me that most people who are looking at this wiki for some quick advice won't want to determine material size or divide by three. Might be a useful to write it out explicitly for us dolts. [[Special:Contributions/174.1.230.63|174.1.230.63]] 04:30, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 ::::Partly because I agree with you, but mostly because I long for your affection, I've added the cost in bars to appropriate pieces of armor.  I think that it's only fair that you begin returning my letters now.  -- [[User:Vasiln|Vasiln]] 07:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
-:::::This is extremely useful, as it lets you know at quick glance that you would need (for instance) 10 steel bars per heavily armored dwarf (3 for breastplate, 2 for greaves, 1 for boots, helm, guantlets, shield and weapon.)--[[User:Riverc|Riverc]] ([[User talk:Riverc|talk]]) 19:08, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 == Armor comparison ==
@@ Line 40: / Line 39: @@
 An [[Talk:Bolt|experiment]] shows that candy is the worst metal armor against bolts. --[[User:Lcy03406|Lcy03406]] 05:57, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
-Has anyone done any testing of Leather vs. Bone for armor material purposes? I'd like to be able to provide accurate information if asked while I'm on stream, and while I know that neither is preferable to metal armor, there are some cases where these may be the only materials available, or the only desired materials for use. I can't seem to find any examples of any hard testing of these two materials. --[[Nirruden]] 03:32, 28 April 2014 (EST)
 == Shaped headgear and armor limits ==
@@ Line 87: / Line 84: @@
 Now, as far as anyone seems to be able to tell, there's no reason not to use a (lightweight, eg leather or wood) shield.
 [[Special:Contributions/98.212.197.213|98.212.197.213]] 07:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
-== Coverage ==
-I added an armor coverage chart for all vanilla armor/clothing, because I believe it makes it much easier to determine which areas are covered by which armor than a written description. All pieces of armor/clothing were tested in the arena, so they ''should'' be correct. In case any mistakes crept in, please inform me and I'll make the appropriate changes to the chart. I double checked and shirts indeed seem to protect toes.
-[[User:Zivilin|Zivilin]] ([[User talk:Zivilin|talk]]) 21:12, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
-== Foreign items ==
-Marked with the cross are items that ''no'' dwarven civilisation can craft. Togas are an "uncommon" item for dwarfs, which means that only ''few'' of their civs can make it. It remains possible for dwarfs to make and is thus '''not foreign'''.
-In contrast, no dwarven civilisation can know how to make capes, loincloths or face veils. That's why they are marked as un-craftable.
-Which of the armours can be made by each dwarven civ is random, and it's entirely possible to have a dwarven civilisation that knows how to make togas but cannot make robes. This doesn't make robes ''foreign'' either.
-Which items are potentially available for a civilisation can be found in the raws, entity_default.txt. Look at the "mountain" entity, and you'll find the complete potentially dwarf-viable item list. Once again, some of this is randomised and not all items will be available to every (or even most) forts.
---[[User:Larix|Larix]] ([[User talk:Larix|talk]]) 01:24, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
-P.S. and i'm not talking theoretically. In a vanilla DF fort of mine, togas are a normal clothier's workshop option (but dresses, shirts and vests aren't).--[[User:Larix|Larix]] ([[User talk:Larix|talk]]) 01:45, 11 March 2014 (UTC)