Editing v0.34 Talk:Trap

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== Some starvation in cages ==

"Most captured creatures do not require any nourishment and will survive being in a cage indefinitely"
This is somewhat untrue in this version. many creatures DO stave while caged now.
(maybe all grazers?)
so far I can confirm that humans, trolls goblins survive fine. -- [[User:Se5a|Se5a]] 06:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

:Probably just creatures that have to feed, most of which would be grazers and dwarves.  A large number of creatures with the grazer tag have starved to death so far, but a large number of underground creatures (no grazing, or eating tags), as well as invaders and caravans (they don't eat, so that you can't starve them out) seem to survive indefinitely. -- [[Special:Contributions/50.122.43.2|50.122.43.2]] 20:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

== Quality what? ==

That source (1) about mechanism quality in weapon traps is from 2007. -- [[Special:Contributions/12.13.14.15|12.13.14.15]] 21:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

== Cage traps not triggering in DF2012? ==

I recently started playing DF2012, coming from DF2010. When the first Goblin ambush came after I had set up my default defense (walling in and adding a corridor of cage traps to the entrance door), they just walked through the traps (yes, they were loaded), as if the didn't exist at all. What is more, I tried to lock the inner door before them, when I noticed, but they just ignored it and walked through, even without stopping.

Is this new inteded behaviour, or is this a bug? Is this maybe the result of creating my world with advanced parameters? -- [[Special:Contributions/93.132.119.44|93.132.119.44]] 08:21, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

:I haven't had this issue, personally.  Probably a bug. -- [[Special:Contributions/50.122.43.2|50.122.43.2]] 20:03, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

== Traps block wagons in 34.09? ==
I have observed that a single line of cage traps can prevent human wagons from reaching the depot, making a "corridor of traps' strategy useless. (Stone fall traps are impassible for wagons too.) Feature or bug? -- [[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 10:30, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

:Seems like a possible bug, but may also be intended.  I've noticed the best way to bypass this is to put your trade depot before your corridor, and use a bridge and channel system to prevent entry/exit during sieges.  Basically, a lock system.  On the outer side, you have a 3-wide channel which you dig, then remove all except for one ramp.  You build a bridge on the side of the depot that will raise towards the depot, and encompasses all of the exposed area (5x5 or larger is required).  You then put a lever next to the depot to raise the bridge after the caravan has entered.  For added security, and the ability to have this open during sieges (in the event of a mid-siege caravan, so that the carts don't bypass your site simply because the bridge isn't down), do the exact opposite on the side leading to your inner fort, and put another lever (or both levers) inside of your fortress.  This effectively allows you to protect merchants, while still preserving your corridor-of-death, and also preserving the ability to receive incoming trade carts. -- [[Special:Contributions/50.122.43.2|50.122.43.2]] 20:11, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

:Alternatively, build your traps such that there is a 3-wide zig-zagging corridor (or alternating Us) so that the caravan can path, but invaders will go straight triggering all the traps


   Like so:
 
       Zig-Zag                               Alternating U
       T+++T+++      T = Trap                +++++++++++++++++++++++
       +T+++T++      + = Ground/floor        ++T+++TTTTTTTTTTT+++T++
       ++T+++T+      E = Ramps going down    ++T+++T+++++++++T+++T++
       +++T+++T        to tunnel to depot    ++T+++T+++++++++T+++T++
       ++++T+++                              ++T+++T+++++++++T+++T++
       ++++T+++                              ++T+++T+++EEE+++T+++T++
       +++T+++T                              ++T+++++++++++++++++T++
       ++T+++T+                              ++T+++++++++++++++++T++
       +T+++T++                              ++T+++++++++++++++++T++
       T+++T+++                              ++TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT++
       +++T++++                              +++++++++++++++++++++++



:: I've found that just a simple 'L' path can work:

        +T+++T++++
        +T+++T++++
        +T+++T++++
        +T+++T+++++W    B = Drawbridge
        +T+++TTTTTTW
        +T++++++++BB
        +T++++++++BB -> Depot
        +T++++++++BB
        +TTTTTTTTTTW
        +++++++++++W


::A single row won't stop a whole squad, of course, so widen the trap field as time & materials allow, esp. around the bridge/entry. [[User:Urist McDorf|Urist McDorf]] ([[User talk:Urist McDorf|talk]]) 15:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

== Dwarves and Traps ==

I believe the following to be true:  Dwarves, no matter how drunk, can <s>safely</s> bypass their own traps when walking over them...

This was not immediately clear to me from the wiki articles. -- [[User:MalikDama|MalikDama]] 19:50, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Drunken dwarves? Nonsense! -- [[Special:Contributions/193.151.42.224|193.151.42.224]] 21:03, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

== Cage Trap Weight and speed of assembling ==

I've experienced that my dwarves take a lot longer to assemble a Gold cage rather than a wooden one. The dwarf can sit at the same spot for days until they get the cage right.

If this is true, then metal cages are, for practical purposes, worthless.--[[User:Doktoro Reichard|Doktoro Reichard]] ([[User talk:Doktoro Reichard|talk]]) 12:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:Not worthless (e.g. if you have no wood...), just slow to haul and (from what you're saying) load. On the other hand, I'm finding that the stockpile "Additional Options" settings can work to separate your wood ("Plant/Animal") and metal ("Non-Plant/Animal") cages, keeping metal ones away from your traps. This is useful if you, like me, have a tendency to buy up empty metal cages specifically for melting. [[User:Urist McDorf|Urist McDorf]] ([[User talk:Urist McDorf|talk]]) 15:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

::Good catch (about the stockpile options), although even without a lot of wood I find it more efficient to build cages out of it (all in all, worth is subjective). One can breach the caverns and seal off the fortress thereof.--[[User:Doktoro Reichard|Doktoro Reichard]] ([[User talk:Doktoro Reichard|talk]]) 01:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Interested by this problem, I decided to do some tests. The setup was the following:

# 30 Dacite mechanisms were supplied, along with 10 Ash, Gold and Slade cages.
# The dwarf's skill was modified to be at 0, 10 and 20, at each step and between different cages.
# The time it took to assemble 10 traps was measured using visual measurement and the in-game calendar. Aside from the '''fastdwarf 0 1''' command and the commands to create the items in the first point, no other hacks were used. The break times were also recorded in the process but they weren't significant.

Here are the results:

                          |Time (days)|
          |Material|Weight|0  |10 |20 | <- Mechanic's skill
 ---------+--------+------+---+---+---+
          |Ash     |36    |9  |9  |9  |
 Cage     |Gold    |579   |35 |17 |12 |
          |Slade   |6000  |51 |22 |9  |
 ---------+--------+------+---+---+---+
 Mechanism|Dacite  |48    |
          |Slade   |4000  |

[[File:Cage Trap assembling analysis .PNG]]

I've graphed the distributions in regards to weight and skill. I've made some conclusions:

# Assembling speed decreases '''logarithmically''' with weight and increases '''exponentially''' with skill.
# The limit for assembling 1 cage seems to be 9/10 of a day.

I also verified whether the assembling of the mechanisms themselves was a factor. I tested a Level 10 Mechanic with Slade mechanisms and Gold cages, in the same setup as above. The result is 18 days, which (accounting for experimental error) means the mechanism's weight has no matter. This matches the fact the assembly of the mechanism in the trap doesn't confer xp.

What remains to be tested is how quality influences the build process.
@@ Line 108: / Line 108: @@
 I also verified whether the assembling of the mechanisms themselves was a factor. I tested a Level 10 Mechanic with Slade mechanisms and Gold cages, in the same setup as above. The result is 18 days, which (accounting for experimental error) means the mechanism's weight has no matter. This matches the fact the assembly of the mechanism in the trap doesn't confer xp.
-What remains to be tested is how quality influences the build process.--[[User:Doktoro Reichard|Doktoro Reichard]] ([[User talk:Doktoro Reichard|talk]]) 15:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
+What remains to be tested is how quality influences the build process.
-== Traps as Main Defense ==
-In the current version, weapon traps give you the most bang for your buck of any traps. I doubt they will work against a bronze colossus, but I have so far successfully removed two goblin sieges (one with a wave of trolls as well) with nothing but weapon traps, a windmill for troll bait, and of course raising drawbridges to change pathing.
-Secondly, a combination of silver and wood weapons seems to work just fine, in my test it was silver spiked balls, silver serrated disks, and wooden spikes. Since silver is rather easy to acquire early on, this requires, other than that, wood and stone.
-Presently I'm also testing to see if nothing but wooden spikes and wooden balls will work on goblins. Since there is a tendency for goblins to not wear leg, hand or foot armor, and to wear caps instead of helms, I have noted quite a few goblins that were brained by a wooden spike, or completely hobbled to the point that they could be struck down in a blink by novice swordsdwarves.
-Lastly, does anyone know whether 10 traps with one spike each (say, in a line) is more effective than 1 trap with ten spikes? Since traps sometimes are not triggered, spreading out the traps seems to guarantee at least a few triggers, though the triggers may not be deadly. There must be a sweet spot; whether it lies at the end or in the middle I don't know, but my experience with single 10 weapon traps is that they let a lot of creatures through; the creature must be forced to go back and forth (by pathing changes) to get a trigger (though in the readouts the creatures were all slaughtered by the silver discs - butchered into pieces by those three-hit attacks.)
-It would be nice to know if a clever player could stop a horde of goblins with naught but wood and stone.
---[[User:Riverc|Riverc]] ([[User talk:Riverc|talk]]) 04:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC)