Editing 40d Talk:Design strategies

:'''Editors & Contributors''' - Please include diagrams and/or ''clear'' and well-sized [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images images] if appropriate.  For diagrams, use [[Main:Character table|standard Dwarf Fortress symbols]] for your diagrams - an x is an up/down stairwell, a ╬ is a fortification, a ▲ is an up-ramp/slope, etc. etc.   For screenshots, use the standard tileset, not a custom one that few may recognize.

:Also, please don't personalize a submission by adding a name to it - it discourages the collaborative effort that ''is'' a wiki.  If your suggestion is lengthy and complex, consider placing it on your User: page with simpler explanation and a link here.

:Lastly, if you can keep similar or alternate suggestions grouped within like subsections/topics/categories, that would be a good thing.  Future wiki users and DF players thank you.

==initial concept discussion==
Perhaps these explanations of how the various mining commands work should go under a Mining article. "Design strategies" seems like it would be more about layouts for kitchens and pump systems and whatnot. --[[User:BahamutZERO|BahamutZERO]] 19:43, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
: I have inadvetently written an article on [[Digging]] which complements the work on this page. I suggest they be reviewed and relevant parts merged. This page will have a use in future for players to post their designs. I agree with '''BahamutZERO''' that this isn't the place to talk about Mining. --[[User:Markavian|Markavian]] 22:41, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

Added some various parallel articles on a "lost" page to this one.  The [[Architecture Design]] page was serving the same purpose as this one and had exactly '''zero''' links to it.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

== Flooded Entrance ==

I'd like to see some sample shots of that Flooded Entrance setup. It's my understanding that the screw pump only pulls water up, not pump it down. Maybe he meant a floodgate for dropping the water down a level. --[[User:Vinic|Vinic]] 16:27, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

:I think what he had was two rooms--one is the actual entrance way, sealed by doors--that have pumps on the level above, dumping thier output into a channel that leads into the room they aren't pumping from.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 16:43, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

::Sorry if I was ambiguous in my wording. Hopefully the accompanying screenshot removes any confusion in how it works. --[[User:Lucid|Lucid]] 11:38, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

The idea is good but what I saw on those screenshots had immediately looked flawed to me. Even back when siege AI was broken trolls wandered to my experimental flood-the-sigers device (ironically) and quickly destroyed both the screw pump and the windmill. I am sure that they will also try to break any accessible axles and gears. So you should modify the design to keep all building destroyers (ideally including flying ones but not necessary as dragons are really rare and demons are avoidable) from leaving you with a permanently flooded entrance. The problem can be even worse with lava.--[[User:Another|Another]] 17:59, 16 December 2007 (EST)

== Choice of location ==

I think we should get some information up here on selecting a ''proper'' site to start digging your fortress. Sort of a list of ideal criteria to look for on the actual map after you've arrived, taking into account things like elevation, natural rock formations, water and magma, and accessibility. Sort of a guide to the ultimate defense, I suppose. --[[User:Xazak|Xazak]] 14:47, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

:Seconded. That would be indeed useful. --[[User:UltimaPhantom|UltimaPhantom]] 13:43, 8 November 2007 (EST)

==Defense Designs== 
I think we should have separate page for defense schemes such as the new trap designs using machines and wall patterns and such. [[User:Jikor|Jikor]] 06:29, 9 November 2007 (EST)

== Nifty designs? ==

Not sure if this is right page, but I'd love a step-by-step about building arenas. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:24, 13 November 2007 (EST)


== Workshop layout ==

Why are the inputs placed so far off the hallway in the "Wio" design? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a 'ladder' layout where each rail was a hallway and each rung was "iWo", so that haulers had easy access to both piles?  Or better yet, a hallway with input stockpiles below the workshops, and another with output stockpiles above the workshops?  I think the layout presented is pretty inefficient given the new 3rd axis.

=== Indeed... ===


I strongly agree, workshop layout needs it's own page first of all, and second of all it needs to be expanded more, with the z layout there is a large difference on working out the workshop layout, I'm sure it will eventually get edited in, if you feel like it, you can edit it in yourself as well.
(In the future, please sign your edits, especially on discussion pages, it makes it easier for people to contact you)

[[User:Pyrofyr|Pyrofyr]] 06:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

:I agree.  The current organization of this page is cluttered and inconsistent.  (Why is workshop design on this page but bedroom design on its own page?)  Unless anyone has a strong objection, I'll start working on a separate workshop design page.  --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 00:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

== This page is strange to edit ==
If you edit a section of the page, it totally screws up the formatting of the entire page.  I think it might have to do with the code and pre tags. [[User:Julius|Julius]] 14:21, 13 November 2007 (EST)
:I stripped out the code and pre tags and replaced them with leading spaces to preserve fixed width formatting.[[User:Julius|Julius]] 14:34, 13 November 2007 (EST)

:That wasn't a good idea, and to be honest the problem isn't the pre tags, it's the way people are editing the page, they need to treat it like MediaWiki not like it's some random thing they don't know. [[User:Pyrofyr|Pyrofyr]] 16:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

== Access to Trade Depot ==

I thought it would be a good idea to have a seperate three-tile wide entrance to have the trade depot underground, behind defences, with a single tile wide access from a store-room for finished goods.

HOWEVER: If the drawbridge blocking the three-wide entrance is raised: the human merchant wagons bypass my settlement!

Maybe, closed drawbridges need to be included as accessable in the pathfinding algorithm?

Yes, my "Access to depot" screen is ''totally different'' with the drawbridge up vs down. It should be the same though.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 07:14, 8 February 2008 (EST)

==Radial Design==
I've been using a radial design that works superb.  The entire fortress is designed around a principle somewhat similar to that presented in the 'Moody Dwarves' section on the main page.  With a single staircase running up and down the entire fortress, which everything is connected around.

The floors alternate workshop/storage.  On workshop floors the diagonals immediate to the main stairway are mined out a couple spaces to make room for the first workshops; around those I start mining in straight lines and start a grid pattern.  Storage floors I leave the wall of stone around the staircase with only one or two walls mined out for access and put doors there; everything around this is mined out.  First floor is usually farm workshops, kennel, barracks, and dining.  On the ground level I start by mining into a cave, clear out space for a trade depot, and mine out one spot where I build a single downward staircase; here the entire fortress starts.  It works great and is very efficient, though it takes a while to get setup right.

For defense I prefer to locate the starting digging point up high and build a bridge to an inaccessible area of cliff.  The bridge is retracted as invaders stream across it.  Again, it takes a while to get started because you have to build a huge bridge, but worth it.  The sole entrance to your fortress is also a single down stairway (unless you have backdoors or additional stairways), making it somewhat easy to defend here too.

I'm still a noob, so I'm sure people can add to this, but of my several fortresses the one I went with this design on has been my favorite and I think best operating establishment.

Below you can see a piece from around the central staircase, to see how the design should start.  Notice that it is pretty modular, you can have two workshops pushed together, or you can separate them all, and you have a couple options on how you set up your entrances, connecting two workshops with one door, or leaving them with separate entrances.  Up to you.  Notice the initial diagonal terminates at a workshop, and starts the grid pattern.
W= workshop
D= door
┼= path
`= wall
<pre>
|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|`|`|`|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|`
|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|`|`|`|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|`
|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|`
|`|`|`|`|┼|.|`|W|W|W|`|.|┼|`|`|`|`|`
|.|.|.|.|.|.|`|W|W|W|`|.|.|.|.|.|.|.
|`|`|`|`|`|`|┼|`|`|`|┼|`|`|`|┼|`|`|`
|W|W|W|W|W|W|`|.|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|W|W|W
|W|W|W|W|W|W|`|`|X|`|`|W|W|W|`|W|W|W
|W|W|W|W|W|W|`|.|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|W|W|W
|`|`|`|`|`|`|┼|`|`|`|┼|`|`|`|┼|`|`|`
|.|.|.|.|.|.|`|W|W|W|`|.|.|.|.|.|.|.
|`|`|`|`|┼|.|`|W|W|W|`|.|┼|`|`|`|`|`
|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|`
|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|`|`|`|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|`
|`|W|W|W|`|.|┼|W|W|W|┼|.|`|W|W|W|`|`
|`|`|`|`|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|`|`|`|`|`
|`|`|`|`|`|.|`|W|W|W|`|.|`|`|`|`|`|`
|`|`|`|`|`|.|`|`|`|`|`|.|`|`|`|`|`|`
</pre>

[[User:Omnirizon|Omnirizon]] 23:59, 28 February 2008 (EST)

-----

I started using this design, but ran into a small problem: For some reason, even with all four diagonals leading into the room, they're unable to build a workshop though. I've so far only tried a mason's workshop since I'm interested in getting rid of all my excess stone by turning it into blocks for roads and walls (I want to have smooth roads and walls), and no matter which square I stick it in, they say that they "Cannot reach the work site" once they begin building. [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/urth/workshop.png] There's a link to a picture of the layout thus far. The workshop is in the bottom square, and when completed would only block out access from the top-right corner, still allowing traffic via the top-left corner. It even says they cannot reach the site if I stick it in the far north square, where both current entrances would remain intact. Why is it doing this? --[[User:Urthdigger|Urthdigger]] 04:44, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

:I haven't tried this setup myself and I don't know why it didn't work for you, but solving it ought to be rather easy simply by not extending the diagonals beyond the initial hallways, like so:
<code>
█WWW█.█████.█WWW██<br>
█WWW█.█████.█WWW██<br>
█WWW█.█WWW█.█WWW██<br>
██▓██.█WWW█.██▓███<br>
......█WWW█.......<br>
██████▓███▓█▓███▓█<br>
WWWWWW█.█.█WWW█WWW<br>
WWWWWW██X██WWW█WWW<br>
WWWWWW█.█.█WWW█WWW<br>
████▓█▓███▓███████<br>
......█WWW█.......<br>
██▓██.█WWW█.██▓███<br>
█WWW█.█WWW█.█WWW██<br>
█WWW█.██▓██.█WWW██<br>
█WWW█.█WWW█.█WWW██<br>
█████.█WWW█.██████<br>
█████.█WWW█.██████<br>
█████.█████.██████</code>

You'd get an unsmoothable section of workshop wall, but it's better than nothing. It'd also allow you to incorporate a door if you were adapting the design a bit. [[User:Kirig Stonebeard|Kirig Stonebeard]] 00:46, 24 February 2009 (EST)

:I get the "Cannot reach the work site" cancel message a lot with my current fortress. It seems to happen when there is too much loose stone on the work site; kind of the workshop equivalent of "item blocking site" cancel messages. I wait for haulers to clear it or just designate it all for dumping. Once there's no more stone they'll build workshops just fine even with only diagonal access. [[User:Bitbender|Bitbender]] 16:42, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

::Yes, dwarves will clear the stone out of the area a building is about to take up, but they don't seem to do it diagonally. [[User:Cheepicus|Cheepicus]] 04:05, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

== Beware: Traffic Problems ==

I think that one of the biggest mistakes new fortress designers make is not leaving enough space for traffic.  If you build a fortress that is too compact/tight, you'll begin to see problems when you have 80+ dwarves all running around.  This will be especially problematic in fortresses that use single width hallways.  I'd suggest using 4-wide for main arteries, 3-wide for secondary roads, and 2-wide at minimum for anything other than a work/access tunnel.


== Gairabad's shameless self-promotion ==

I added a bunch of stuff to my [[User:Gairabad|user page]] on workshop layout design.  In my humble opinion, it blows all the existing designs on this page right out of the water.  You're welcome to incorporate it if you like.  [[User:Gairabad|Gairabad]] 21:17, 28 November 2008 (EST)

== Cave Adaptation ==

Not sure why, but when I follow the intructions on this section the stairway ends up listed as 'inside' and 'light'.  As I understand it, unless it says outside it won't work.


I noticed that the instructions as listed say to replace the channeled area with flooring, that may be a missunderstanding there.  This is in response to the person talking about things being inside anyway.  I will try to give it a try soon and see what I get.  Anyway, on to my actual comment.  The posting mentions that telling dwarves to stay inside forbids them from using the stairs, a possible way arround this is to make sure that the exit has a door of some sort (since it is suggested to build a wall at the top level anyway) and then when you tell all dwarves to stay inside, lock the door, then tell them they can go outside again. [[User:Burlingk|Burlingk]] 23:39, 10 February 2009 (EST)

:As far as I can tell, virtually the entire section in question is just plain ''wrong''.  About the only thing it gets right is the part about putting chairs out in the light...which it then ruins with the bridge comment.  I'm going to go ahead and remove it. --[[User:LegacyCWAL|LegacyCWAL]] 01:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== This page is broken ==

This page makes heavy use of the ParserFunctions extension and it's simply not rendering if I activate that extension. I'm not familiar with the syntax used for all that but my guess is that it's way too big. I suggest the people who originally made it try to split in either different blocks of code or on different pages. 
I might be making some tests to see if it can be fixed but I might break stuff. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 15:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 155: / Line 155: @@
 This page makes heavy use of the ParserFunctions extension and it's simply not rendering if I activate that extension. I'm not familiar with the syntax used for all that but my guess is that it's way too big. I suggest the people who originally made it try to split in either different blocks of code or on different pages.
 I might be making some tests to see if it can be fixed but I might break stuff. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 15:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
-== Diagonal design ==
-While it is true that it can save (possibily significant amounts) of tiles to cross for dwarves (depending on fortress design), it is also inherently less room efficient, since a closed wall will require many more tiles of wall, for example, offsetting the advantage and work required for such a design.
-However, the 'wall-inefficience' again has the advantage of opening more wall tiles to be smoothed.
-The article should mention these things. Right now it's very misleading.