Editing 40d Talk:Dwarven economy

1) Wages paid --- dwarves gain credit for tasks completed.  Credit is either maintained or transferred into physical value when the dwarf in question claims coins.

2) Rent --- bedrooms have a rent assigned to them based on their room value.  The rent schedule is unknown.  How the dwarves physically pay the rent is unknown.  If a dwarf cannot pay the rent an eviction notice is placed on the room.  The specifics of eviction are unknown.  Dwarves that cannot afford one of the available bedrooms will sleep in available barracks.

3) Shops --- Once the economy begins, shops may be constructed.  There are several types of shops - clothing, general goods, exotic clothing and possibly others.  A type of shop may not be specified; it seems to be selected randomly.  Shops have an associated cost, which is assumed to be paid by the dwarf that takes control of the shop.  Once a shop is owned, items will be moved to the shop corresponding to which type of shop it is.  Dwarves then may buy items for the shop, presumably using the same credit system that may or may not correspond to actual physical coins.

4) Item cost - all physical items are given a cost, whether for sale or in a shop.  It is unknown if dwarves pay a cost for an item picked up that was not for sale in a shop.

also - kids have combined wealth of their parents, which can lead to paris hilton-syndrome in DF - children with wealth of several thousand buying out the noble/admin rooms and owning shops filled with =giant cave spider silk dress= --[[User:Frostedfire|Frostedfire]] 04:07, 20 November 2007 (EST)


----

It seems that the dwarven economy is now triggered by the coming of a Baron /Baroness. I haven't seen it for myself but it's what I gather from the forums. There also seems to be a bug where all coins minted appear as the same coin type (e.g., copper, silver, and gold coins all appearing as silver) on the economy window. --[[User:Keizo|Keizo]]


Just got the dwarven economy started for the first time. The game is a bit tricky to play in wine. ^^;;. Anyway, since there isn't any page here yet, I'm sort of lost, so I've added what I already know so other folks will be at least a *little* less lost :-P

Typically a page will be expanded a lot more quickly if you actually already have some content on it,.Please expand!  --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 19:48, 1 December 2007 (EST)

None of my legendary dwarves have an account in their status screen.
Does this mean that they are exempt from prices or something?--[[User:Pigbuster|Pigbuster]]
:They always have been.--[[User:Heliopios|Heliopios]] 01:05, 6 December 2007 (EST)

== Wages ==

What is the deal with "- haulage being a major exception - "? Last time I checked there were some wages for item hauling, furniture hauling, food hauling,... on the in-game {{key|j}}{{key|m}}{{key|w}} wages info page. Of course a dwarf can spend a month hauling a rock to a stockpile and get his 1* for it, but a job of taking food from a stockpile and relocating it to an adjacent stockpile can yield a dwarf dozens of * in quite small period of time.   Place 10-20 medium sized stockpiles accepting all furniture in a line and set them to take from each other in chain so that the first small stockpile is the closest to your workshops and your last large main furniture stockpile is the closest to your currently furnishing rooms. Watch your haulers' bank accounts sky-rocket.--[[User:Another|Another]] 05:24, 10 January 2008 (EST)


Who and whern/how can change wages percentage on first "Wages" screen? It's always 100% for me--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 06:53, 14 February 2008 (EST)
:one of the nobles can, but rarely does so (bookkeeper?)

== Soldiers ==
Will the soldiers pay for getting armor or weapons?--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 05:10, 11 January 2008 (EST)
:No, they don't own them.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 18:11, 11 January 2008 (EST)

== No Coin Economy==

How does an economy work without any coins? Do they use pretend money or something?
:Every dfwarf starts an account in DwarfEcoBanc, and is always carrying his/her credit card. But if you will be stupid enough to give them money (like I did last time), they would prefer to use money instead of card. In case you don't get it: you don't want them to use money, really.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:59, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:It works just the same as in the Real Life. As opposed to the economy of the old, when coins were units of precious metals, with real actual value attached to them, currently all money is created as a credit from the central bank (which is paid by taking a new credit). Dwarves get credit from you for work they do, and you can pay it back by providing them with goods other dwarves produced (for another credit). For coins, you must mint actual metal. For going into infinite debt, you don't need anything, and you can never run out of it (gold bars go down to zero, debt goes to minus infinity). But without inflation, it doesn't really hurt in the long run like it does in the Real Life.

:I would personally like to see coins better implemented, i just like the idea of coffers full of gold and actually having a hoard to protect.  Maybe each dwarf can have a 'Moneybag', which is like a quiver or waterskin, but for coins.  They'll carry around in it their 'spending limit' for shops, the rest of their money being locked up in their coffer, if they have one, or maybe at a bank; a bigger personal hoard means more happy thoughts!.  Other than those direct purchases, all earnings/expenditures is totaled up over a month, season, or year and the net result is transferred by the Tax Collector, who meets with each dwarf and gives (or takes) the appropriate amount of gold.  The money owned by the government(controlled by you) is stored in either The Bank or The Hoard.  The Bank is for day-to-day activities and exchanges; The Hoard being a designated area where goods are taken out of the economy.  Weapons are in racks, armor on stands, furniture and crafts displayed; but most important of all are the piles of coins and gems!  Active traps and proximity to magma and water help too.  The size and value of The Hoard has a significant impact on fortress wealth, and increasing it is a common Noble Demand; a big hoard makes ALL of your Dwarves happier and vice versa.

== How is this a feature? ==
I dig the realism and all, but the only effect the economy has had on my fortress is that my hard working dwarves now can't afford the rooms they've been sleeping in for the past ten years, while my nobles and champions (junta?) live in solid gold mansions.  I went straight to the .ini and turned economy off.  [[User:Ripheus|Ripheus]] 18:49, 6 March 2008 (EST)
:Yeah, well, the pricing of those rooms doesn't work by supply and demand for some reason, they have fixed cost. But still I kind of like the idea of an economy, and it seems a bit odd to "strongly recommend" that you shouldn't mint coins etc. I haven't even seen them hauling any of those coins. --[[User:Magirot|Magirot]] 09:18, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

It's ironic that without coins, the economy actives better. Kinda like using credit cards instead of coins (Maybe a hint to the government to stop making coins?!) --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 04:17, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Economy Trigger(s) ==
We know what triggers the economy, but what does having an active economy trigger? The most obvious is nobles, but there are a couple other things I've noticed. First, whether it's related to the economy or not, my only fortress that's ever been under siege has had an active economy, while my others that only get random goblin attacks did not. Likewise that fortress is my only fortress that has gotten megabeast attacks. It may or may not be related, as most of my fortresses before it didn't get as big as it is. (80 or so highest vs 110) --[[User:Eurytus|Eurytus]] 22:09, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
:Both of sieges in my current fortress (40c) were prior to the economy starting, so I don't think the economy is causal. I think it has to do with population and wealth. More dwarves attract more attention and the pickings are better with more wealth. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 12:02, 8 September 2008 (EDT)
I don't believe its a trigger for anything. My current fortress has been besieged five times and attacked by a Dragon. All this happened before I unlocked the economy.--[[User:Max Dougwell|Max Dougwell]] 07:08, 3 December 2008 (EST)

::as soon as i got my economy up and running, i had my first siege, then my first (ever) megabeast attack straight after. similar to Eurytus, it's never happened in any of my other fortresses (only one siege prior to these two attacks, in a different fortress).
::however, i will add that in the year before, i was producing native platinum statues, increasing the fortress wealth considerably (native platinum = 120, native platinum statues = 3k), so what's the formula for it? is it:
Wealth = Attacks?
Economy = Attacks?
Wealth = Economy = Attacks? or maybe
Wealth = Attacks + Economy?

== Starving ==
"Dwarves will not starve because they cannot buy food; they just choose whatever's cheapest." - Is this true? It seems that dwarves whitout money die from either hunger or thirst. --[[User:Mizipzor|Mizipzor]] 14:16, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

:I do believe eg plump helmets are 1* per unit, they only need to move a couple rocks ;) --[[User:Frostedfire|Frostedfire]] 10:30, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

== Setting economy to NO (ini file) stop immigration ? ==

Hello, because I really dont like economy (I want to assign bed manually !), I've desactivated it in the .ini files... but now, I haven't receive any migrants for 2 years, and my population is slowly reducing 'cause of the accidentals death. 
Anyone know if desactiving the economy (just before the arrival of the baron which trigger economy) also desactive immigration ?

Again, sorry for my imperfect english. [[User:Timst|Timst]] 08:59, 26 April 2008 (EDT)
:caravan reports summon migrants, large numbers of deaths or lack of wealth stop it

== Childrens' accounts ==

"Normal" children are really wealthy - they sleep in rooms for nobles, eat roasts and buy golden things. I heard that they have combined wealth of their both parents. It's pretty crazy.
On the other hand noble children... My baroness has a son, who has 3 (yes, 3) monies on his account...
Isn't it really strange? --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 06:52, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
:His parents has no money, really. So, he has only three pennies he got hardworking in the fields, harvesting...--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 05:04, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
It appears Legendary Dwarves still get paid, despite being able to take whatever they please. My child of two Legendary Dwarves has 256 in her account. Either that or she's doing odd jobs when I'm not watching.--[[User:Max Dougwell|Max Dougwell]] 07:13, 3 December 2008 (EST)

::That may be leftover from before the parents were legendary.  I've seen children of two legendary dwarves maintain a constant or decreasing cash supply following the ascension of the second parent to legendary, despite abundant in-profession work for both parents which should rapidly provide a huge influx of cash.  I can only conclude legendary dwarves no longer earn money. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 05:47, 29 December 2008 (EST)

:::They don't need money, they're exempt from the economy.  Also, the children of nobles NOT BEING NOBLES THEMSELVES can create the amusing situation of the baron's son dying of hunger, if you keep churning out *plump helmet roast*s.--[[User:Zipdog|Zipdog]] 06:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

== Necessary for nobles? ==

It's currently not very clear whether or not the economy needs to be enabled in order for nobles to continue arriving. For instance, the hammerer, barons, etc. Is there any confirmed knowledge of which nobles will or won't come depending on whether or not the economy is enabled in the init file? [[User:G-Flex|G-Flex]] 22:09, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

:All right, a friend of mine just confirmed through play that such nobles, even the tax collector, will still come even with the economy disabled. He's got a count (and consort), hammerer, tax collector, dungeon master, and philosopher (at least those are the ones I know of). [[User:G-Flex|G-Flex]] 04:25, 16 June 2008 (EDT)


== Effects of turning it off, once it's on? ==

Changing ECONOMY to NO in the init.txt file after the economy has kicked in doesn't seem to keep dwarves from spending already-earned credit at shops.  (I haven't seen them paying for drink, so it may be that food and drink are now free; I'm not sure, though, because I haven't yet watched them pay for drinks while the economy is turned on, so I don't know when that happens.)   --[[User:Sev|Sev]] 17:00, 28 August 2008 (EDT)

== Effect of turning it on, once it's off? ==

If you turn the economy off and get the tax collector, baron, etc... what happens when you turn it back on?  Does the economy start back up, or do you only get one shot at it?  I don't think I want the economy but if I miss the opportunity to ever turn it on, then it becomes a tough choice. --[[User:Sowelu|Sowelu]] 02:22, 27 November 2008 (EST)
:I tried killing my tax collector, but when his replacement arrived a year later, the economy did '''not''' activate. I haven't tried offing my duke (and duchess consort) yet, but given his obsession with anvils (124 and counting), the temptation is very strong... --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 05:42, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
::I've gone ahead and offed my duke and duchess consort - when their replacements arrive, we'll see if the economy turns on. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 18:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

== Tips for living with economy? ==

I just read a suggestion on the forum, and was going to add it to a list of economy-survival tips, but there doesn't seem to be one. [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=29016.msg373478#msg373478 here's the forum post]. Shouldn't there be such a page? [[User:Solarshado|Solarshado]] 21:57, 25 December 2008 (EST)
:There's a couple tricks for this.  The casino mentioned there, triangle stockpiles (3 stone stockpiles that are all taking from eachother, making constant hauling work), etc.  However, everything like this is classifiable as an exploit since if you put it in the context of an actual economy it would cause gigantic economic inflation and currency devaluation almost overnight.  Really that's all you're doing with techniques like this; you're devaluing what a single ☼ means until it's basically nothing, and taking advantage of the fact that the DF engine doesn't currently have a way to adjust for inflation.

:Really, living with economy in a legit, as-intended manner is just making sure there are enough meaningful jobs to do.  Growing [[dimple cup]]s and starting a dyeing attachment to a fully blown clothing industry can employ dozens of dwarves around the clock using only the caravans as resources (for importing cloth and the appropriate volume).  Skilled work like sewing clothes, dying cloth, sewing leather/cloth images, etc all give 20☼ or more for a single job.  A dwarf can afford a very nice apartment and very nice food, with enough money left over to go shopping, if they have a skilled-labor job to do.

:Alternatively, you can just provide a way to become legendary easily.  Screw pumps connected to nothing will make Pump Operators legendary pretty quickly, especially if other duties are minimized.

:Anyway, it might be worth adding this as a few notes, but I'm not sure there's enough to say to make a full section about it. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 23:03, 25 December 2008 (EST)

::Its hard to talk about exploiting an economy which actually operates under an absolute theory of value rather than supply and demand.  Once you assume an absolute theory of value as your model of economics, inflation simply cannot exist and the concept doesn't even make sense. 

::Ie, meaningless hauling jobs -> inflation is only an exploit if the price of goods fluctuates because of supply and demand.  Or you can just look at it as making dwarves do non-productive wage-paying jobs compensates for the unavoidable 'exploit' that is the stupidity of there being abundantly available rooms of quality X remaining at a stupidly high value instead of having their price become more affordable in the absence of sufficient demand for them at their current price.

::--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 05:44, 29 December 2008 (EST)
:::This is exactly what makes it an exploit.  If the system took into account inflation and supply and demand, then this would not be an exploit.  The fact that it does not count these things means that the infinite hauling jobs pay out pleanty of cash while achieving no net bennefit to the community, but are still not effecting the value of money. :P  It is like turning your dwarven colony into a welfare state without the economic drawbacks! [[User:Burlingk|Burlingk]] 20:39, 11 February 2009 (EST)

::::No.  Ok, lets be perfectly clear here, while there have been many theories about what creates value, the real economic model has always been supply and demand in the real world.  You have just at various times had people pretending that other things were true (and generally not those whose business involved intimate interaction with said economy, who have always understood how supply effects price, if nothing else).  So in the real world when you try to pretend something wrong is true there are horrible consequences.
::::Enter DF, which specifically institutes as a law of nature a theory of value totally at odds with supply and demand.  Given the existence of that Truth of the DF world, nothing involving it can be an exploit because it does not and cannot behave like any real economy.  Fact: DF posits a world with an absolute theory of value.  Fact: given an absolute theory of value, pulling a lever really does have a set value even if pulling it accomplishes nothing - because the act of pulling that lever has been defined by the laws of nature as being worth a particular set amount.  That action has an absolute value, just like every other action.  
::::What it comes down to is the DF theory of value is *stupid*.  However, all these exploits are actually such a thing working exactly as intended, its just the intention is stupid.  But as such its not an exploit -  an exploit requires something working differently than intended.  The moment you assume an absolute theory of value, you necessarily intend for things like this to happen.
::::--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 04:25, 14 February 2009 (EST)
:::::It's an ALPHA.  The entire game engine is just a placeholder.  Nothing can be taken as cannon at this stage. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:48, 25 February 2009 (EST)
::::::....I'm confused.  Are you saying its an exploit because sometime later the design of the economy might change and lever pulling for cash would be an exploit of some presumed future system?  That would make every use of the current economy an exploit.  When the economic engine is fixed, if it is fixed, then doing the listed 'exploits' won't even be possible.  Yes, my position is that an economic engine is impossible to exploit, because its rules are necessarily the rules its implemented to use.
::::::But there's no evidence that any change is coming.  Not that i've read every feature goal and power goal, but i don't recall incorporating a supply-demand system is on Toadyone's list of priorities at all.  And the fact that its an alpha just means he isn't done implementing what he considers basic features, according to his own design plan.
::::::--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 04:15, 26 February 2009 (EST)
:::::::The same "impossible to exploit" thing applies to all other imperfect simulations, though. By the same logic, you could say that a drawbridge deleting things isn't an exploit, because that's how drawbridges work in DF, or using one block of aquifer stone to produce unlimited water isn't an exploit, because that's how aquifers work in DF. Triangle stockpiles to generate unlimited money are just as much an exploit as running a waterfall from one block of aquifer stone through a water wheel to a drawbridge. It's not a matter of "some future version", it's a matter of "the thing the game's trying to simulate".
:::::::Notably, the lore doesn't include the dwarven economy operating on a labor theory of value, and the liaisons and guildmasters even use a demand/supply theory of value. So the absolute system is just an alpha-quality simulation of a demand/supply system, and taking advantage of that is an exploit.
:::::::Of course, this cuts both ways. For example, a proper economy uses mass action, similar to "the wiki magic"; but in DF as it stands, the player has to assign labors and order workshops built - a dwarf who sees a need can't just buy some space, some tools, and some materials, and start fulfilling it. So the economy also exploits you. But that doesn't make exploiting it back into any less of an exploit.
:::::::But hey, I've modded in some supermetals, and just by not taking the midnightsteel battleaxes I embark with loads of points for equipment, and I bring tetrahedrite and smelt it into billion. I just accept that I'm exploiting flaws and bugs in the game. [[User:Darekun|Darekun]] 19:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

== Are there any profits? ==
Is there any reason NOT to turn economy off, other than the extra challenge it creates (plus happy thoughts from shopping for those who can afford that)?
It looks that the original communism the Dwarves start with, serves them much better, especially that there seems to be little special profit from very happy dwarves, while there's a lot of trouble for the unhappy ones, and economy seems to create more of both extremes.
Also, slaughtering of the noble or the tax collector won't reverse to the no-economy, will it?
[[User:Sharp|Sharp]] 11:43, 26 January 2009 (EST)

:How can there be profit in a system of absolute values?  What do you mean by 'profit'?  The only profit in the game is the value added by labor, which isn't really profit but the value of the labor itself.  Basically, the game operates under some rather strange economic assumptions (an unholy marriage of the labor theory of value and mercantilism).  So no, there is absolutely no benefit to the dwarven economy, especially as its hardly worth the name economy.  (Economics is about differential rarity and preferences, neither of which the game's economic engine takes into account). --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 01:17, 27 January 2009 (EST)
::I think you misunderstood me, I didn't mean "Profit" by economic meaning, I meant "changes in the mechanics of the game the player benefits from", "Profit" as opposed to "Trouble".  [[User:Sharp|Sharp]] 13:05, 27 January 2009 (EST)
: You mean benefits? Extra complexity and [[fun|challenge]], of course! You get shops, coins with value, and an answer to the question, "My dwarves are all happy, what do I do now?" I have it disabled in the .ini, like any sane dwarfmaster. Oh wait, that's a contradiction in terms. But I still have my Baron->Count->Duchess and my Incoming King (pop limit 140). --[[User:Jellyfishgreen|Jellyfishgreen]] 06:12, 12 February 2009 (EST)

==Fake Deaths==

Toady should add a mechanic where a brewer pretends to kill himself in a pub fire to claim the insurance cos he can't afford a room.--[[User:Warlordzephyr|Warlordzephyr]] 16:29, 24 February 2009 (EST)

:Affordable life insurance couldn't possibly exist in a Dwarf Fortress.  They die too easily. --[[User:FJH|FJH]] 17:11, 24 February 2009 (EST)
::Affordable life insurance.  Classic. oh, this place cracks me up...--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:51, 25 February 2009 (EST)
:::In Dwarf Fortress, affordable life insurance is an [[artifact]] [[adamantine]] [[flail]]. --[[User:Jurph|Jurph]] 01:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
::::One word:  Magma--[[User:Zipdog|Zipdog]] 06:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

== Economy stoppers? ==

Is it possible to stop the Dwarven Economy once it starts by killing the Tax Collector/Baron?
::I've never seen it stop, even after a tax collector was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps with the init file, though?  Anybody?[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 01:56, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Nope - once activated, it's locked.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 18:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

== Accurate as of...? ==

:"According to the game designer* [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=6882.msg81183#msg81183], the '''dwarven economy''' is unlocked when ...

:* 25 [[crafts|crafting]] jobs
:* 25 [[metal]]-related jobs
:* 25 [[wood]]-related jobs
:* 10 [[gem]] jobs
:* 25 [[stone]] jobs
::or
:* 25 [[food]] jobs..."

The problem is that post was made by Toady One in Jan of '08, well ''before'' ver 39a was released (July '08).  The numbers ''look'' right for the current version, they ''feel'' right - can anyone verify them?--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 66: / Line 66: @@
 :I do believe eg plump helmets are 1* per unit, they only need to move a couple rocks ;) --[[User:Frostedfire|Frostedfire]] 10:30, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
-:My Duke starved/thirsted himself to death... he had no money.  Is this why?  and yes there was plenty of food, none of the 152 other dwarves did starve.  --[[User:L337chica|L337chica]]
-:: A dwarf will not starve due to not having enough money, the children of my legendaries have put the family in debt (legendaries don't earn wages, children don't earn enough and once they grow up they get their own account) yet still new kids pop out with nobody in my fortress (who doesn't wall himself in/get walled in by me) starving to death. --[[User:Overspeculated|Overspeculated]] 11:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
-:::Your Duke didn't starve from being unable to purchase food - he probably went [[insane]] from your failure to meet his demands. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 16:48, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 == Setting economy to NO (ini file) stop immigration ? ==
@@ Line 178: / Line 173: @@
 The problem is that post was made by Toady One in Jan of '08, well ''before'' ver 39a was released (July '08).  The numbers ''look'' right for the current version, they ''feel'' right - can anyone verify them?--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
-== Suggestions for the future ==
-I've had a few ideas for the future economy, so I'll post them up here:
-* Thieves. Dwarves who are too poor to afford something essential (or not for greedy dwarves) should be allowed to turn to thievery to allow them to live - however, this should make them criminals. The chance of stealing without being seen should be relevant to their Ambusher skill (as that influences how easy it is to see them)
-* I like the idea of dwarves having their own 'moneybags' or purses, but again that allows for another kind of criminal - the legendary cutpurse. Again, the chance to pinch the other dwarf's purse undetected should be relevant to their ambusher skill.
-* Children shouldn't inherit their parent's wealth until their parents die, and should be allowed the 200 monies that everyone else is entitled to when the economy begins, to stop legendary/noble kids being the poor ones, and the commoner's kids being complete spoilt brats.
---[[User:Libelnon|Libelnon]] 00:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
-== Economy - Good or bad? ==
-So, is it "better" to leave the dwarven economy on or turn it off in the init file? --[[Special:Contributions/198.54.202.130|198.54.202.130]] 10:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
-== Less than 80 dwarves ==
-I got a baron with only 72 dwarves. The highest I've ever had was 79 (then I decreased the limit due to FPS issues) while a dwarven caravan was at my fort. Maybe it uses the highest ever population, and counts all dwarves on the map? [[User:Immibis|Immibis]] 03:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)