Editing 40d Talk:Siege

===Trigger?===
Just noticed that I got my first (Goblin) siege at 100000 wealth. Anyone else confirm that this is the trigger? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 00:06, 9 November 2007 (EST)

:I had my first goblin siege at about 600k wealth. They sieged me at 15 levels above ground level, where I had a stairway to my fortress. They loitered around for a season and left. [[User:Kaivosukeltaja|Kaivosukeltaja]] 07:31, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Thanks. I removed my addition from the article. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 09:35, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I think part of the trigger is killing a Goblin. I had captured several Goblin thieves, but it was only after I'd dispatched them that I was besieged. So, (wealth > certain amount) and (has killed Goblins) maybe? [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 23:09, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Actually, according to Toady (http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000033), Goblins will start sieging now roughly around 80 dwarves and/or some odd amount of wealth.

:I had 3 goblin snatchers show up at a population of 40 dwarves and created wealth of 63,793 (v0.27.169.33g). --[[User:Frond|Frond]] 22:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)

I think that the trigger amount is off by a bit- I just received my first siege, by goblins, at 57 population and about 411,000 wealth. --[[User:Linktoreality|Linktoreality]] 04:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)

I'm playing at 50 pop cap (performance reasons) and in 6 game-years of play + 2mil wealth I haven't had any sieges yet. --[[User:Alpha|Alpha]] 17:14, 3 March 2009 (EST)

== Troll squads ==

I had 3 troll squads of exactly 8 trolls in each during a siege. Had a goblin king that time but no beak dogs. Can it be that no beak dogs in goblin civ=better chance for trolls?
:I been sieged at least half a dozen time in my current fortress, and I've never encountered trolls or anything bigger than skilled goblins. In my latest siege, all the goblins are specialized in something but I have no trolls or wolves or whatever to show for. Any idea on this behavior? --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:16, 26 November 2007 (EST)
::Apperently they haven't access to any chasm biome for trolls and to whatever biome for beak dogs.--[[User:Another|Another]] 15:42, 26 November 2007 (EST)

::Does anyone know what the entity_default tag is that allows goblins to bring trolls with them? --[[User:Drunken dwarf|Drunken dwarf]] 06:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

== Mounts ==

Woe betide those who anger humans.  I added a second human race with [BABYSNATCHER] instead of [SIEGER]  for barbarian raiding action.  When they sieged, every last one of them was riding a horse.  When I approached the buggers kept running away and going all Parthian shot on me, too.  It was pretty bad ass.  -[[User:EarthquakeDamage|EarthquakeDamage]] 02:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)
:Oh snap, it's the Mongols. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 14:48, 7 March 2009 (EST)
::More like the Iranians(or Persians if you like)[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot] [[User:Shoez|Shoez]] 02:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

== Still bugged? ==

Are sieges still bugged in 33b? If someone knows for certain, could they add the version number to the statement in the article? Ta. [[User:Runspotrun|Runspotrun]] 19:52, 18 November 2007 (EST)

I just got siege and i think the bug is still there cause just redownloaded it for erroring reasons...the goblins just sit there and wait for something...
I'm wondering if (thanks to the bug) the goblins well just die of thirst or something?? or well just o away?

:Yup, still bugged. Toady needs to rewrite the siege AI, 'tis not a simple bug. Goblins will go away on their own after a while, but that beats all the fun. [[User:Noctis|Noctis]] 15:04, 21 November 2007 (EST)
::Some people suggested on the forum building siege engines near the goblin groups and fire to them to death. I'm trying to do just that in my current game. Alternatively, I think there is a flag in the init file where you can disable sieges. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 16:33, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Has anyone looked into changing the raws for the goblins to have them a similar behavior to werewolves and other predatory creatures? They roam around the map looking for something to kill, and while they might not stay together in a squad, or move toward your base directly, at least they would do *something*... if it works.  Any thoughts? --Gotthard 12:24, 30 November 2007 (EST)

:As of 33g I think they're still somewhat bugged. They will charge but if they find something to attack, it seems like their AI turns off and they stop on the spot. So I guess as long as you don't give them anything to attack on the way to your front gate, they will work fine. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 22:45, 30 December 2007 (EST)

== Siege as a blockade == 

"A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by force or attrition, often accompanied by an assault. The term derives from the Latin word for "seat" or "sitting."[1] A siege occurs when an attacker encounters a city or fortress that refuses to surrender and cannot be easily taken by a frontal assault." --wikipedia 

A siege isn't just a blind charge into your cage traps, either.  
[[User:Moller|Moller]] 14:38, 3 December 2007 (EST)

My last few goblin sieges, have been actual sieges, instead of running around into my traps. The first of 3 squads ran in, about half fell victim to my traps, then ran, then the other 2 squads have been just waiting outside my fort, for 3 months and counting. [[User:OmegaX]] 15-September-2008
:Just to check, you didn't do anything that would break their pathfinding like triggering cave-ins, locking doors, or raising bridges? -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 14:41, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
They left after a season, but there were no pathfinding issues, the fort was open, just waiting for them. --[[User:OmegaX|OmegaX]] 21:10, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

==Best way to counter sieges?==
So far, the best way I've found to counter sieges is to create a line of traps all around the map. You can't build them just next to the border of the map, only 5 or 6 squares away from it... However, goblins still walks around a little and often hit the traps. It's hard to create enough casualties in this way to stop them, but they hardly ever leave without giving me free stuff and free kills. :) 
Alternatively, setting up ballistas or catapults in front of them and firing away is also very rewarding. Too bad it's almost impossible to do without forbidding your dwarves from fetching everything outside, which usually mean that they'll get in the way even if you manage to forbid everything in time. I wish there was a way to allow military dwarves to operate siege engines...--[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 14:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)

: I agree.  Traps are a great thing.  I also save VERY often, and when a siege occurs, I will 'force quit' and revert to a previously saved game.         Then I make all my dwarves soldiers and give them time to pick up their equipment. This has proven very successful.--[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 23:46, 5 September 2008 (EDT) Later...I have found that traps are the best/only defense.  I have set up about 200 cage traps around the map, and also 20 stone fall traps around the entrances. Soldiers are only useful to me now when I release the goblins from their cages- in confined spaces -for a mass slaughter.  Very satisfying.

== Human Leader / Mercenary? ==

I got my third or fourth goblin siege in the current game, and they arrived with a Human Spearmaster in one of their squads. Anyone else got this? Is it worth mentioning in this page?
:Confirmed: third siege. One of invaders is Human Macelord. He is a best attraction at my zoo right now :). Think, i'll add this. Whoops... someone already has :)--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:33, 16 January 2008 (EST)
::My roommate had one in a group of ambushers.  He was wearing a human leather earring, so that's lovely ;) --[[User:FloodSpectre|FloodSpectre]] 20:04, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

== Nifty defense plan ==

On an unrelated note, I figured a pretty nifty way to kill a lot (or all) of a siege by making an outdoors gatehouse with marksdwarves on the battlements... except instead of making it face OUT, I make it face IN, so I let the enemy inside and they get totally annihilated, as they are shot as soon as they appear :)

Something like this:
<pre>
########
=bolts=#
######@#
     +@#   g
     +@# g
   g +@#   <- goblins on ground floor come this way
     +@#  g
     +@#    g
######@# g
=bolts=#
########
</pre>
This work specially well again enemy shooters, they don't even get a chance to shoot back (and it seems it's nearly impossible to hit my dwarves on higher ground AND behind fortifications).

--[[User:Sergius|Sergius]] 23:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)

:Yeah, I recently tried a system like that, where the entrance hall is two floors tall, and I have a marksdwarf barracks on the floor above. They shoot plenty of goblins, and of course I have about 60 stone-fall traps there too. I watched laughing as 66% of the goblins thought "AAAH RUN AWAY" and they retreated like sissies :D --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 11:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

== Stealth Sieges ==

It seems that in the new version that sieges don't give announcements anymore. I was still getting my fortress together when one of my woodcutters was ambushed by 10 or so goblins. They proceeded to charge my fort and get killed by the merchants and dogs. Then like 30 seconds later the second wave appeared unannouced at my door. The merchants were in no shape to stand against them and the dogs were all dead. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 15:31, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:This sounds more like an [[Ambush|ambush]] than a siege. I've had four seemingly separate goblin ambush squads all assault my fortress at the same time (four separate "An ambush! Curse them!"s), each of which was a lot more dangerous than my first siege! -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:00, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

== quote from toady, december 27 ==
(so maybe parts of it changed)

"Humans and elves will come some time after they are angry enough at you.

Kobolds will start sending thieves once your pop hits 20 or you've traded a bit (value 500) or you've produced a bit more (value 5000). If they successfully steal objects, they'll come back with more thieves, and if they continue to be successful, they'll bring (buggy) archers. The power of the next attack is based only on how many objects were stolen during the last raid. They'll start sending archers if three or more objects are stolen.[]..they can send as many as 17 thieves and 36 archers, but this is incredibly unlikely. If the stolen object number is five or more, they'll start sending important historical figures.

Goblins start sending kidnappers when your population has hit 50 or you have traded a bit or produced a bit more (5x the kobold numbers). Once your population hits 80, they'll start to send more serious attacks instead of kidnappers on occasion. The numbers sent during the serious attacks depend only on how many attacks you've been through. If they have mounts or monsters(trolls?), they'll start using them on the second attack, with multiple monster packs on the third. Important historical figures also come with the third attack, but master weapon users can come on the second. Important kidnappers come on the second kidnapping attempt.

All of this will be obsolete once I get the armies working properly on the world map, though there will still have to be some artificial mechanism in place to stop early forts from being wiped out."

:Good, then I shall start war with the elves because there are no goblins.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 18:22, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

== Human Sieges ==

I am, right now in v0.28.181.39b, being besieged by about 14 humans, one of which is on a horse carrying a bow. "An enemy is laying siege" or some such came up instead of the usual "A vile force of darkness has arrived". Even stranger is that they built ''A Campfire'' and are just milling about around it. There is a clear path straight into the heart of my fortress. There is no sign of war on the civ screen. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 09:21, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
<br/>It's even worse than that! They're actually doing siege tactics - they sit in their camp until someone goes outside, at which point they all set off to kill that poor sot. Then they return to camp. If it's not outside, they don't care. They also don't seem to be affected by any of my traps. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 11:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
:just wait until the campfire has burned down and then they will move to the fortress as the goblins do. It might take a while, so no need for hurry. I only had two human sieges in my current fortress until now, but they seem to increase in numbers as the goblins do.
:*first year: ~10 humans, not mounted, campfire
:*second year: ~20 humans, 2 squads, mounted. 1 squad with campfire, the second one just waited and had no campfire. After a while, they moved to the fortress, but not both squads at once.

:In my case (v0.28.181.39c), they were affected by my 2 weapon traps. At least at the second siege when they were mounted, during the first one when they had no horses, I had no traps, so I don't know if this has an effect.

:The text of the human siege is "The enemy have come and are laying siege to the fortress"

: In my fort the human guild representative died and once a caravan was slaughtered by an ambush. 
:[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

::now in the 3rd year, a human diplomat arrived instead of the next siege and he offers the following options:
::''Peace is calling out to us. How do you respond?''
::Enter: ''I hear her voice. Let us stop this war.''
::Space: ''We will drown her out with the screams of your dying. Begone.''

::As I'm a beginner, as far as wikis are concerned, it would be nice if someone could update the article. 
::[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 12:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
:::I've added it in, although I'm also a n00b at this wiki stuff, and kept forgetting important stuff. -[[User:Namako|Namako]] 14:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::::thanks. As there aren't many reports about human sieges right now, it is a good start. -[[User:Imajia|Imajia]] 03:09, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

: I have also received a human siege (v0.28.181.39e). Accidentally had the merchant diplomat locked in my fort - he 'left unhappy' (but he and the caravan were otherwise unscathed.) First summer - 10 unmounted humans; second summer - 50 humans, all mounted. Their campfire died down in Fall - it is now mid-Winter and they still haven't entered my fort. Instead they ride their horses in circles outside my gate. I have tried to bait them with expendable dwarfs but they just take them out with crossbows. Dwarven caravan did not even attempt to come in the Fall; also, no goblins or kobolds have dared to raid during the siege. All in all, a pretty effective siege as I do not have yet a military capable of attacking. (3rd year of fort). By the way, when the first siege force arrived I had fewer than 80 dwarves.
:[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 21:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

My guild rep died somehow, not really sure what caused it, though my relations before that were fairly good with the humans, aside from a caravan seize once, and when they came back I gave them gifts and large profit margins. Anyways, now there's a siege, I don't see a campfire, but they're definitely waiting, eventually they marched into my fort, AVOIDING all the non-cage TRAPS. Cage traps got a few, but they evaded my corridor with 20 weapon traps, and 40+ Stone-fall traps, all loaded and ready. Without a single injury. --[[User:OmegaX|OmegaX]] 02:13, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

:: I remember something about the human merchants and/or guild representatives looking at traps when visiting the fortress, and making them useless against the human siegers. Great ! Now we have Human spies and diplomats, Goblins blitzkrieg, Kobold snipers and Elven commando. Can't wait for Elephant paratroopers and Giant cave spider artillery.

:::Operation Dumbo Drop and Starship Troopers?--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 17:27, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
::::[http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20081211.html Rule 11: Everything is air-droppable at least once] --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 08:21, 13 December 2008 (EST)

== Avoidable? ==

I just had my first siege in my current fortress, and happened to save right before it started, like 1 or 2 steps before. The goblins killed all of the dwarven caravan that they arrived with, so I reloaded and there was no siege. I haven't been very long in this no-siege alternative universe, so I want to know if it will happen slightly later, or if I have avoided it completely. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 21:39, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

I just got ambushed, with an elite bowman along with the group, nut definitely not as many goblins as the siege.this is kinda weird. [[User:Destor|Destor]] 21:48, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

== What about constructed walls? ==

The page says trolls will smash all buildings. But what about constructed walls? The Construction page says constructed walls/floors act as inert terrain objects. --[[User:Xonara|Xonara]] 05:10, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
:[Building Destroyer]s like trolls ignore constructs like walls and floors, they only smash things like doors and bridges. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 09:22, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
::Ok, thanks. That was causing me some confusion. --[[User:Xonara|Xonara]] 17:34, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
:::Just had a troll destroy a wall, although it was under construction at the time.  7:36, 27 June 2011 (EDT)

== Megabeasts ==

Could someone update my add-on about megabeasts? It was lacking info about them but it's pretty general right now. --[[User:Squeegy|Squeegy]] 16:30, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
:Could use an update, indeed!  It's verified in the advanced world gen parameters that world generation stop is based on percentage of surviving megabeasts (default 80%), and that number can be modified when creating a world with advanced parameters (I myself typically lower it to 60%, in hopes of more roving hydras for my fortress to face).  I would also write a few words about cage traps and the dangers they present to a fortress, as I once had a caged titan break out of his cage and lay waste to the inner sanctum of a fortress.  --[[User:Eddie|Eddie]] 17:55, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

===Megabeast Trigger ===

So, I'm in my 9th year with a population of 79 and haven't seen a megabeast yet, despite over 5 million in fortress wealth.  I'd say the trigger has to be population and not wealth.  --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 02:50, 5 December 2008 (EST)

:: I'm on my 16th year, with a population of 201 and a created wealth of 1,330,775 ... no signs of a megabeast. --[[User:Loganis|Loganis]] 16:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

== Mining ==

Is it possible for a human siege to mine into your base? I've played around in adventure mode and seen (and killed) a few human miners, so I was wondering if the humans were ever smart enough to bring one along and tunnel into your base. [[User:Milskidasith|Milskidasith]] 10:42, 9 November 2008 (EST)

Not yet, unfortunately. Rock walls and constructions of any type remain impervious. They can't fill in dry moats yet, either. Fortunately for the humans, a dwarf fortress can't survive indefinitely without imports, migrants, or fresh lumber, and human besiegers tend to be more cautious than goblins, so they can still endanger your survival indirectly. --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 12:36, 9 November 2008 (EST)

:Currently my fortress is pretty well self sustaining, though due to pathfinding errors my dwarves refuse to take the inside stairs to my exploratory mining chamber. I'm at my population cap (130) and my food and drinks are fairly stable at 200 seeds, 500 alcohol, 600~700 prepared meals, and 300 plants. At the very least, I'm (very lucky to be) prepared for the next human siege (the first one was a group of pansies who managed to get killed without me noticing (long story short, I assigned my squads to a mountain near the humans for the high ground, and some crossbowdwarves went around the long way and shot their way through the humans (who didn't have any crossbowmen, at least not after the first volley of dwarven bolts) and left only a few for cleanup.

:Oh, did I mention my ''War [[Giant eagle]]?'' The thing kicks MAJOR ass. [[User:Milskidasith|Milskidasith]] 16:53, 9 November 2008 (EST)
::You can't have a war giant eagle.  Dogs are the only thing that can be trained to war animals.  Brag if you like, we all do it, but don't lie. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 17:16, 9 November 2008 (EST)
::: I edited the raws to make it trainable. And don't say that can't be done, they tell you how to do it (for elephants, but still) on this very Wiki.[[User:Milskidasith|Milskidasith]] 17:19, 9 November 2008 (EST)

::::War eagles do sound pretty cool.  Do their heads always face left, by the way?[http://www.snopes.com/history/american/turnhead.asp]--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 17:42, 9 November 2008 (EST)

:::::Actually, I thought more along the lines of the SCREAMIN EAGLES! reference from Valve (it's what you get if you have feedback rank 10 on Steam, and the soldier shouts it in TF2, but I can't remember where it came from). You want to know the eagle's name, by the way? Tribeflags. Yeah, it's kind of a lame name, bu

''The above poster was found with this edit partially made, brutally mauled by a large bird like creature. If you wish to contact this person, consult the nearest dwarven shaman or bonespeaker. Thank you. '''Dwarven office of half finished notes cut short by death.''    [[User:Milskidasith|Milskidasith]] 21:56, 9 November 2008 (EST)

==Goblin Morale==
Does anyone else find that the goblins have really bad moral? I just had 4 squads run away, because 3 goblins died. That wasn't even half a squad, and I really wanted the iron. Any thoughts on why they are so cowardly? [[User:Dangerous Beans|Dangerous Beans]] 21:02, 4 December 2008 (EST)

:It might be dependent on whether the squad leader gets killed.  Hard to tell, though -- most battles are pretty chaotic.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 22:11, 4 December 2008 (EST)

::That might be it, the squad leader was the first to be cut in half by a trap :D [[User:Dangerous Beans|Dangerous Beans]] 00:42, 5 December 2008 (EST)

:::ah, i was wondering why half of 'em ran off. 3 squads of goblins, two of about 10 and a main one of 15. after the first two had been annihilated (literally. not a scratch on any of my 20-strong crew), the larger squad started running away (or, diverted their path off to one side of the map, away from my fort), and the 'SIEGE' in the corner disappeared. but.. you'd have thought the leader would be in the main squad, right? it was a squad of 4 lashers (whip-users) and 11 wrestlers, with a single 'goblin spearmaster'.<br>how can you tell who's the leader? and is it useful to chase them off? (apart from the obvious iron and such) perhaps stopping them coming back next time as part of a larger squad? --[[User:DJ Devil|DJ Devil]] 11:44, 7 March 2009 (EST)

== Siegers Listen to Orders ==
I can make my human siegers wait or not by changing orders;  if dwarves are allowed to go outside, they will approach any usable entrances, but if I tell them to bunker down, they bugger off back to their campfires.  "Pet Doors"(forbidden, pet-passable) are useful for this, since they allow siegers to approach but don't let dwarves outside to die.

==I Said Stay Inside!==
So I've taken the ramps off of a pair of hills, making them into circular towers of natural stone. Then I connected them with a wall. I put a door with a bridge over it to let me get through, and set it up so I could retract the bridge and isolate the second hill if necessary. I built a food stockpile and a meeting hall under the second hill. Then some goblins laid siege. I told the dwarves to stay inside. A squad of bowgoblins walked over to my wall. I didn't think this was a problem, until i started getting messages about dwarves bleeding to death. They were running across the wall to get to my backup food stockpile and meeting hall. Apparently they thought "I can't go outside, but the meeting hall isn't outside, so I should be ok to walk across this narrow walkway, completely exposing my silhouette to enemy fire. Y'know what, I'll take my baby with me." The only good thing was that the goblins were so busy shooting at my helpless dwarves and their pets that my pair of champion melee fighters were able to tear their flank a new one. Something should probably be updated to reflect that this can happen, but I don't know what and how. For now, I'll be widening the walls and lining them with fortifications. That should make them able to make the trip without dying, at least.--[[User:Pyrite|Pyrite]] 07:49, 13 December 2008 (EST)
:I've also noticed this behavior with my Dwarves. It seems that they will always try and go to the meeting hall areas regardless of what the orders are. I have a meeting hall zone defined on some of my battlements in my current fortress and wondered why they would continue to mill about outside when I told them to go inside. After a while I just defined a new meeting hall underground and they started going inside. --[[User:Kuroneko|Kuroneko]] 16:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
::As has been mentioned somewhere else inside destinations are still valid in pathing. Fast dwarfs may also go a few tiles far before they cancel their task due to being outside. Also, I occasionally use outside meeting zones to lure dogs outside as guards (works fine) but have not yet had dwarfs go there too, or even try, when i had outside forbidden. Maybe it is because i always have inside meeting rooms/halls too. -- [[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 23:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

== Hungry, Hungry <s>Hippos</s> Goblins ==

So I have been collecting goblins from previous sieges and forcing them into an inescapable room with nothing restraining them, does anyone here know if they do eventually die uncaged? I want to set up a mega doomsday lever that lets 100+ goblins into my fortress.--[[User:Heliman|Heliman]] 23:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


== An End to Sieges? ==
Is there a limit to the number of attacks, or do they go on forever increasing.  Personally i'm on my 19th year of a fortress
and haven't been attacked in about 2 years, no ambushes, no sieges. --[[User:Loganis|Loganis]] 22:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

In world gen, the population of everything is tracked. The goblin you killed wasn't just a goblin, but part of a city that is at war with you. I think you effectively killed off most of the population and your just going to have to wait for the babies to mature. About 12 years.
:That's completely false - while '''early''' sieges might be '''led''' by worldgen goblins, all subsequent ones are led by weapon masters created out of thin air the instant they arrive on the map. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 02:57, 12 June 2011 (UTC)