Editing Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions/Archive 1

{{Is Archive|DF Talk:Versions}}
== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==

Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

: I did see that before and I think that's awesome as notes about particular items in an article, but it doesn't quite bring us to the two goals I hoped for [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions|here]].  It informs users about a statement but because of the difficulty (and undesirability) of labeling every statement in an article I think a single template per article can bring something different to the table.  [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

::[[Template:old]] is the same functionality but with a box. Is this what you need, or did you have something else in mind? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

:::Much closer, I think a box for an article (maybe shifted to the top-right) is necessary for this, in order to provide the benefit of information for the user.  A difference is I'd like this box to be on every article so that not only are articles labeled as out of date, but also as up to date.  Most importantly I'm more about discussing the conceptual idea of this kind of organization, then we can devise an appropriate implementation. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

::From what I've seen so far, it looks like what you want is a trivial step away from the things already in place. Is putting the box in the top right corner and putting one on every article the only difference? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Oh I'm not saying it's a fundemental change, but it's implementation will allow for the large project of updating after this big update of DF.  There are some details I think should be part of this change:

:::*A box on every article stating if the article is up to date or not.  If it's not, also stating up to what version it is up to date.
:::*A categorization scheme that follows like so:
:::**If it's up to date, put in two categories: something like "up to date", and something like "version ______"
:::**If it's not up to date, put it in two categories: something like "obsolete", and something like "version _____"

:::Each page should be able to just list the version it's updated as of, the template should determine whether "<nowiki>{{Version|40d}}</nowiki>" should end up in category "up to date" or category "obsolete".  This should be done in such a way that when a new version comes out we can make a small change to the template and EVERY article will become "obsolete" and users can over time go through them and confirm that they are still up-to-date by changing the template to refer to the new version.  ''I think this is the major aspect I'm proposing that isn't a trivial difference from the current method of organization and upkeep here''.  Do you get what I'm suggesting?  If I thought it was a trival difference I would have just implemented it and asked what people thought, but this could be a very big deal if we go through with it.  [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

::Take a look at [[template:vcat]]. This is the template currently placed on all of the version category pages. It compares the version the category corresponds to with [[template:current/version]] and displays a message based on whether or not it matches. Is this the type of thing you want? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
:::This is certainly a useful feature already in place that would likely go on the categories that will be created, or it might just stay as is but the version template will change slightly.  [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

:Perhaps use "New", "Old", and "Obsolete" markers?  DF2010 is "New", 40d is "Old", and pre-40d is "Obsolete"?  I like the idea of a small box up in the corner, and a category to group them. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 23:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

::I would want to make sure we don't get out of hand; new uses will be likely to ignore anything marked "Old" even if it continues to be accurate (nobody had verified it). Perhaps something like "This page is X releases old; some information may be changed" or something. Most releases don't change more than a few major areas (DF2010 is an exception because of the length of release, but even it won't be changing everything). I do think that something like this is VERY important for "tutorial" sections; a single key change could stymie a new user; and we'd lose them forever. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 00:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Well of course and that's a detail on the text in the template.  There are multiple goals to accomplish and realistically I don't think it would take long on a minor to average version to go through and just check each article to make sure it's up to date.  There are a lot but it's not too much, and there a lot of active editors on here who if given a straightforward task of article version checking would be able to accomplish it in the early days of a new version release I'm sure.  I also think the New/Old(Current)/Obsolete(Old) is a great addition.  That way we can do the transition of New to Current for DF2010 after we've done a lot of the work. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:The problem with "updating" all the old version's pages is that is based on the premise that a page, as a whole, can both be "updated" and then accurately labeled as such. It can't, not either. Pieces will be updated, subsections, or single elements of subsections, but even then only as accurate as that last editor understood the changes. Think about the changes that the Wound/Healing system will undergo, or Materials/Values, or Weapons/Armor, and all the directly associated pages and concepts, and references and paraphrasing in other articles - could be massive and subtle at the same time. When does a label get changed? If each User only edits a bit at a time (and few of us rewrite entire pages!), how do we know we've filtered out'' all'' the legacy information?  I ''do'' like the idea of beginning new version labels for each version's article on the same subject - altho' that would almost ''require'' different sites to allow for identical article names.  --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::I don't disagree with your opinion on bit-by-bit changes, it makes sense.  I think your below idea might be the way to go, with articles of the new version labeled with a suffix (DF2010) linking back to the "old" version, which links forward to the 2010 version.  A new site is definitely not needed and would cause a huge amount of problems imo.  I think a simple template on every article (like I described) pointing to a 2010 version can be done by a handful of people with a little time.  Then the 2010 version can start with just that template (which will automatically point backwards).  This will include the separate page like you suggested, but would still accomplish the goals I had hoped to accomplish.  [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:::<nods> Those "goals" being:
:::* Allow users to know an article is up to date
:::* If an article isn't up to date, allow a user to know exactly how out of date it currently is.
:::* Allow editors to easily find articles which are out of date and improve them. 
:::It seems no article can ever be confirmed as 100% up to date - new observations and insights make this a very dynamic and wiki-appropriate process. But if we can ''start'' every 2010 article (and every version in the future!) with currently accurate info, even if that's only a fraction of what we "knew" for d40, that's as big a step as we can take in the right direction.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

== My vision  ==

(For what it's worth).  I mentioned a desire to look into the possibility of doing this on my Admin application, in the Q&A process. When I first joined the DF community, we had just(?) undergone a version shift, and the pages here and users on the [[Forums]] here were rife with misinformation and contradictory understandings of the game.  Newbies would look in the wiki and find ancient history mixed side-by-side with recent edits, some stuff that went back to the 2-D version, and that would be presented as gospel and no one knew any different.  The ''very'' recent revelation that workshops do NOT make [[noise]] in d40 is a perfect example.  I'd ''love'' to see this version change-over done differently.

What I had envisioned was a category template, something bold and unmistakable like [[mod]] or [[delete]], that marked a page (or every major subsection?) as "OLD VERSION : d40" (or whatever).  (This would also create a category page where all those could be scanned at a glance.)  Those pages would '''not''' be edited for DF2010 - to do that would invite a piecemeal disaster that would spiral into the same jumbled quagmire ''(or probably worse!)'' that I first stepped into.  As a User wants to address a topic, a new page is started - if that is ''identical'' to the prev info ([[dwarf]], perhaps, etc), then it's mostly just copy/paste - but if not, then it gets edited and updated on the new page.  If only part of it can be verified, then only part of that older page makes the transition at that time.  Thus (in theory*) only material that has been confirmed as "DF2010 accurate" will make it to the "current" wiki, and the rest is clearly marked as legacy but stays intact as that.

''(* I have no illusions that users will not find a way to screw this up at times. But it has to be better than opening a long legacy article that has already had a dozen editors shake it up - but it's unclear what has and what has not been addressed. [[Armor]], or [[skill]], for instance.)''

The new pages would have a link to the old one(s), so users could see what if any old info is still applicable or unconfirmed, and/or what needs to be translated/updated and added, but the new page will grow the new article from the ground up, rather than pretend a dozen users could patch an accurate final product together from an inaccurate but similar one, one edit at a time.

It's the difference between repairing a totaled car, and using only the good pieces to rebuild a new one.

I'm not experienced enough in the wiki-code to know if or how the two "versions" would be kept distinct if we stayed on this site - many articles will certainly want the same Name, so... yeah.  That's what I thought the new site/engine would be used for, not simply copy/pasting current articles and being right where we are now, right where we were with the last significant change, right where we don't want to be.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

:IMO. Personally you would do this by copying every <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki> (say, [[Miner]]) to a new namespace. With redirects from main namespace to the version namespace.
:So <nowiki>[[Miner]]</nowiki> would redirect to <nowiki>[[VerABC:Miner]]</nowiki>. With a simple Page Copy, editors could copy the whole page, and easily update it to DF2010.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]]
::Um, what's the right word?...  NO!!! That is ''exactly'' what I would NOT want to see happen!  And sorry to shout, but that is so far off the mark it frightens me.  That achieves nothing but two legacy sites.  What I would prefer is that the new page is blank, and ''only'' information that has gone thru a user's confirmation process is added to that new article.  Blind, bulk "copy/pasting" is not that.  It's ''much'' easier to read over one section at a time and update that, than to try to weed out legacy information buried in an entire article that has been "mostly edited". For one, how does anyone know what has and has not been checked at least once? Yes, there will be constant updates - but the core information is then at least (in theory) info on 2010, not d40, and any clear d40 legacy material has already been filtered out.  ("Healing and wounds" jumps immediately to mind as a collection of articles that would lead to a disastrous "rewrite" - but snipping bits and pieces, and adding that to the updated system - that gives us better accuracy for the end product.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Something like this, {{L|Template:D40x}}

:I like where you're going and I think this could fit nicely with the goals I had in mind when I wrote this.  For each article we could have a box in it.  Saying that this article was updated as of version 40d, for the new version click "here".  Here will link to "''article name'' (DF2010)" or something similar.  That article will have a box saying it was updated as of DF2010, and for the old version click "here", where here will link to "''article name''".  This can easily be done via templates.
:I understand your concern about updating articles bit-by-bit, and I see a lot of value in your suggestion.  I think at SOME point though after the release of DF2010 we'll need to mass move articles so that the 2010 versions become the ''article name'' verions, and the ''article name'' versions become ''article name'' (40d), and the template placed can have a minor modification to continue functioning after a mass move.
:Ultimately I think this will require more administrative work (move-over-redirect for example), and perhaps a larger set of work for editors, but it will more likely have a better end-product then a bit-by-bit change, which is really most important.  Organization on something like this is key though, but I like your approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 11:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::And I value your experience with what's possible - that could totally work, linking each article to a main (or "best") article in the other version ("best" being relative, depending).  And, yes, the "migration" between naming conventions could be a pain and will have to happen as we phase out d40 (another reason I was thinking 2 sites, but if we don't have to go there then that's better still). I completely re-edited some of the larger clusters left by the previous version changes - the whole Armor/Weapon series, and the various Defense Design/Fortress Design/Fortress Defense/Design a Fortress/Defend your Fortress/Siege Engine/Siege/Design a Defense/Design Theory/Design Theory pages - you get the idea.  That was ugly and took weeks of planning and then editing, and the info was already mostly there and it was largely "one vision", so I could keep track of my own progress - we can't expect that with this shift.  Many of ''groups'' of d40 article will need to be re-conceived 100% ''as well as'' have all new info, rearranged to better fit the 2010 game system and paradigm. "Squads" and "Burrows" will wreck havoc with the current Military and Design concepts, and Wounds/Doctors will most likely call for a new series of articles. It's not going to be a 1:1 translation, and we shouldn't plan on it being so.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:::I get what you're saying about the changes being big enough that "blind copying" d40 info won't work to make accurate DF2010 articles. But I honestly think the use of a seperate name-space for (legacy) version specific information is a tidier way of "quarantining" it than '''Article (Version)'''. The "quarantining" process was more what I was getting at, than the process of getting "accurate DF2010" articles into main-space. <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 12:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::::I kind of like the namespaced articles idea.  However, don't let what I think will / wont work override every other opinion. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 12:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

::: I think the namespace is a good option.  My only worry is problems it could cause to things such as search, which the parenthetical notation wouldn't have those problems.  On the other hand it isn't as easy to separate a page name and the version it applies to if the version is in parentheses, those I suspect the difference may be minimal especially with parser functions.  One thing we don't want is to make navigation more difficult to users.  If they type "weapons" they should arrive at the appropriate article automatically.  Which either means that information has to be on the article [[Weapon]] (without namespace or parentheses) or the article [[Weapon]] has to redirect to the correct version.  I think having [[DF2010:Weapon]] and [[40d:Weapon]] could certainly work, but then when there is a version change all of the articles like [[Weapon]] have to point to the new version.  This isn't a big deal to me though, and is a necessary problem to overcome if we're going to have an article for each topic for each version.  [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::: I'll update the article page with what I think is the current consensus approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::A new namespace would be really good. If we have some large article X that effectively needs to be scrapped, we could move it to Legacy:X and put an appropriate label on it. Then lock it and put a link to it on the new X article. This has the added benefit of disabling all of the [[template:version]] (and maybe [[template:verify]]) tags, which only include pages in a category if they are in the main namespace. So they don't need to be found and removed manually.  [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

== Updated proposal ==

I made some changes, hopefully they are clear.  Thoughts? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

: I wonder if what we're doing here would be more suited for a release like DF2010 - a jump from 39d to 40d, say, wouldn't be that much and shouldn't make the whole wiki covered with orange boxes. Perhaps a smaller unverified note unless a manual "this change was major" button is hit somewhere. I like what is there currently, as articles would "rust" just like dwarven skills if not updated. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 04:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

:: This was inspired by the DF2010 jump but the goal is to make sure the wiki stays up to date through all future releases.  Though I agree that larger changes require a different approach then small changes.  I'd suggest we worry about small changes when they come afterwords. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

:My suggestion would be to use the "main" namespace (ie: no special prefix) for whatever version is current.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

:: Well that seems obvious, and way simpler lol.  The template could still work just as well that way, since the template will know what version is up to date, if it finds an article that is using it, it will know it's up to date if it's the main namespace article.  This will mean that at some point in the near future we'll have to move all of the articles that are relevant to "40d:Article" then edit the redirect to begin the new page which will be about the article for DF2010.  Thoughts on this? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
:::It ''seems'' simpler, but is it really, in the long run? (I'm not sure, but I'm just not convinced either way.) The difference is whether we have to update ''every'' "current" page every significant version upgrade. Won't be "every" time, but any time like this one.  That, plus however much hassle and confusion having two (and more later!) parallel sets of articles creates.  While that won't be often, it will be a LOT of pages to reconcile, recreating (and compounding?) the current situation with every major upgrade.  I wish we could somehow create two independent "sites" (with or without a different domain name/etc), but linkable to each other, so that the new one is separate yet still easily self-referential within itself. A new page or internal-link either series is just a new page, [[metal]] or [[stone]], no need for a new template or qualifier to the obvious and appropriate article name.  And any older series of articles don't muddy the water for navigation or a Search, they just become "the old site", similarly separate but nearby.  If there was a way to mass-mark every page on a site, adding a template that refers users to the new "current version", so much the better. I don't know if anything like this is possible, or practical if it is, but it would be a good thing if it were, and solve both problems.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: I really really don't think that scrapping the wiki and calling it old is useful.  We destroy any and all redirecting capability, which is critical for new users.  Our goal is to retain information about the old versions while creating information on the new versions as accurately and quickly as possible, and with as little trouble for readers as possible.  Creating another wiki is not helpful for this for many reasons (watchlists/usernames not copying over as a couple examples).  I don't think old articles in other namespaces will mess up search, as you can explicitly exclude different name spaces in your search.  I think this is a fantastic feature, instead of a problem.  Imagine being able to search for some topic only in 40d articles?  Or only in "up to date" articles?  Or both? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Apologies. This is my first time using MediaWiki and certainly I could pick a better place to make my first edit. I feel that I should voice support for the notion of a user wishing to filter his search by -any- version easily and quickly. A drop-down added to the search box that filters the search by 40d-compatible articles, older, DF2010, or everything would be super, as would portal pages for each version linking to the sort of info we currently have for Getting Started, Video Tutorials, Nobles, Fun, and so on. It seems that there is a lot of interest in continuing to play the 40d version for various reasons, and so it should definitely be possible now, after DF2010, and after future releases to select your preferred version when searching and to navigate through a portal for that version. As articles are vetted, edited for accuracy, and properly labeled with which versions they are for, I hope it will be possible to not only continue using this one wiki going forward, but to also go backward and play even older versions of the game, or just to click through the versions to compare the evolution of this feature or that, enabling users to better understand and select a version of the game that best suits what they want to get out of it. The availability of many (all?) past versions of DF indicates to me that Toady et.al. consider them important not just as a legacy, but as slightly different game experiences that Dwarf Fortress fans may still wish to us.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 09:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

== DF2010 ==

I just wanted to make sure nobody plans to keep calling the new version DF2010 after it gets released. It will have a real version number at that point. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:Lotsa luck on that one. My guess is it'll be a redirect, as so many "fan contributions" to this culture. Meanwhile, since we have no hard count on the version changes (which equate to the ver number), this will continue to ingrain itself in our consciousness.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 03:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:<small> *using small text to fake hide my pride* - I coined the name "DF 2010" when I made the wiki article :D [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup></small> 
:The 2D version is very commonly referred to as such, so I wouldn't be surprised if it continues to be well known as DF2010.  That being said I agree that if we go with the namespaces, we aren't going to use DF2010 unless that phrasing actually existing IN the game.  Regardless though our job is to help people find what they're looking for and that should be the #1 concern.  If people will search for something using DF2010 or similar we should make that easy as possible.  But the name of articles is unimportant as long as the possible names redirect to the actual article, that's my only concern. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== Consensus? ==

I went through and read everyone's comments on this talk, and tried to summarize everyone's viewpoints.  It looks like we have a general consensus for this idea:

*Move version-dependent (almost all) articles to "40d:X"
*Page "X" [this means the "main" namespace] contain DF2010 information only (no Copy/Paste), links to "40d:X"
*'''Current Version''' namespace is intended to be a staging namespace for us editors. 
*Make references to "DF2010" able to be changed easily.

I figure we can just do a straw poll to decide if this is a good idea (as a whole).  In your comment if you could specify when you think this kind of thing should be done (after we set up templates/categories), that'd be useful [either "ASAP", "some date", or "after DF2010" release].

*'''Support''' - ASAP [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 23:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - ASAP, and I've set up the required namespaces for this project. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 00:33, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''', except the for the name of the namespace. I think "legacy" has a much better ring to it than "40d". Also, this won't be the last time we want to move outdated info somewhere. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 01:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
*:I think it would be great to keep all our outdated information for those who want to play legacy versions of the game. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 01:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Strongly support that last sentiment, at least for the now...
:...Also, I'll suggest that less than 36 hrs over a weekend (if at any time) is perhaps NOT adequate time to poll for a "consensus", at least not for something of this magnitude.  I had something to say about this, something that might have made a diff, but... it's completely moot now, ''i'n'it?'' Next time, maybe either wait just ''a bit'' longer before taking executive action, or simply don't pretend input matters, pls - it's disheartening, among other things.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
::I had your concerns noted, in particular you noted that you wanted to start fresh for each version, which we are going to do.  But I agree that action shouldn't have been taken yet on this.
::This is my fault, I misunderstood what the goal was for this so I hopped into action.  Input is extremely important, and because of that, I'm now working on reverting the article moves. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 15:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:Seconded what Albedo said.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' altho' it's a bit late. Vengeful, while I agree about '''legacy:''' vs '''40d:''' - what do we use next version? Mass move all '''legacy:''' to '''40d:''' so we can move '''main:''' to '''legacy:'''?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

::We don't need a new namespace for every single version. Whenever you have an article that needs to be scrapped, move it to legacy, put the appropriate label on it, and rewrite it. Also, the mass move was a bad idea and not something we should repeat again. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:::But if we have the namespace refer to a particular version then we can easily retain categorization of information based off of version.  In that a template can simply use the namespace to categorize articles.  If we do what you're suggesting then an article will need to be labeled by it's version.  Not a huge problem I suppose, but it is worth noting. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

::::When we move the pages, you're planning to add a template saying the page is an old page pertaining to version blah-blah. This template will include it in category blah-blah. I do not see the problem. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

VD's comments about some pages that are ''not'' version specific should be heeded - take a look at articles like [[defense design]] or [[dwarf]] or some of the [[industry]] presentations - those are not going to change significantly, if at all.  Otoh, if we want to keep a ''complete'' "40d/legacy" data base, then those need to be duplicated, not changed over.  But then, practically speaking, we've doubled our page count.  Once more, I'll suggest two different sites, sub-domains, whatever - the legacy being more or less "fossilized", and the current, default one designed to be dynamic and user friendly.<br /> Currently, to link to a topic is to create (double?)redirect - "[[siege]]" isn't sufficient, and, for an Admin policy that was worried about making things "easier" for Users to do editing, having to know and remember (and bother) to type "[[40d:siege]]" is counter productive in the long run. imnsho.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 11:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:Briess, now that you've fixed things, has it become possible to undo the move? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
::I have to finish fixing the talk pages and then I will be able to undo the move. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 15:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Support''' - this should work. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 02:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
:: I've been noticing that this is breaking double redirects; it makes them less useful. See [[Spiked Ball]] for an example. In a perfect world, it wouldn't stop at the second redirect, but continue on. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 03:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
::: I suspect that it severely harms double redirects that link directly to a subtopic, but I've yet to find one to verify. Something like [[Spiked_Ball#Menacing_spike|Contrived Example]] versus [[Trap_component#Menacing_spike|Single Redirect]]. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 03:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Support''' though it's late.  Although I'm not catching what "legacy" is supposed to mean.  I like the simple, factual idea of calling it 40d, still.--[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 04:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
:Similar to any older (and often non-compatible) version of a product, "legacy" refers to any articles on a ''previous'' version of DF that are not compatible with DF2010. We have none(?) atm, but will soon - what to do with those?  If anyone wants to play d40 in the future, any articles on DF2010 might not be accurate (any more), and there may be some articles and terms found in d40 that simply no longer apply.  Those are (or will be) all "legacy" articles (if or as long as we choose to keep them around).  Also, don't forget that while in the immediate future only d40 articles will be "legacy", eventually DF2010 will follow in the same steps, at the ''next'' version change after this - and we want to try to show some foresight and leave a User- and Admin-friendly policy for then as well.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Neutral''' That is on this exact idea - The fact that double redirects don't work in mediawiki isn't that big of a deal. It's easy enough to use [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] to find them and fix them. As for namespaces, I'd suggest having the version: setup. At some point in the future the DF2010 pages will be out of date, so any method that allows easy archiving is definitely the best. Say for now we decide to go with d40: and the mainspace for df2010. When a new version comes along that substantially changes things from df2010, a massive amount of page moves will have to happen, moving the df2010 pages out of the mainspace and to a df2010: space. My suggestion is that all pages containing information about the game use the format ver:x, so d40:x and df2010:x. Believe it or not, this actually simplifies things a ton. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with mediawiki's crazier things like parser functions and magicwords, but I'm sure we could create a system (it'll just take a little tinkering, which I'm doing right now) where the main page uses a redirect of the format <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[(ver):pagename]]</nowiki> where (ver) is pulled in from one source (I'm still not sure of the best method to do this, thus the tinkering). This creates an easy method for whatever comes after DF2010. I believe under this scenario any searches done would see the current (ver) that was being redirected to, and not the old versions, unless of course an old namespace was explicitly checked on the search page. As for the linking system, we could probably steal the talk page archive template from wikipedia and modify it to automatically link to the other versions of a page. Makes things nice and automatic. Also, this method works well for getting started right away. [[User:Emi|Emi]] 21:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
*:Brilliant, that is an excellent idea for getting everything to work. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 06:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
*::I suppose I should mention that the method I've figured out requires two things. 1. It abuses the interwiki linking and redirect code by creating non-standard internal redirects. (Basically you make an entry for this wiki that looks something like: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/df2010:) The idea is that you can then update the entry in the interwiki table in the database and have the redirects all change. 2. This is more of a prettiness thing, but it's a small change in the Article.php file so that the internal redirects don't create long rdfrom stuff on the URL. Also, is the captcha stuff for non-confirmed users? If so I'd appreciate it if you'd toss me the confirmed userright so I don't have to keep doing them. [[User:Emi|Emi]] 07:03, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

==2010 Articles, present and future==
I'm not sure if this is the place to put this, but I have seen no authoritative statement on this matter, so I'll post this question here; should DF 2010 articles be in present or future tense? I would go with present, because otherwise we'll just be changing it in a month or two. --[[User:Tfaal|Tfaal]] 03:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

:Sounds sensible, as technically it *is* currently as it is, but only on Toady's private version he's working on >_> --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 06:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
::Once the version is released, present tense, altho' people should technically NOT be writing any yet, since it doesn't exist yet, and everything is at best guesswork and extrapolation of Toady's hints and teasers. I don't think the Admin is going to delete any (so far), and groundwork and planning and placeholders are (mostly) fine, but people should avoiding making any assumptions or statements of fact until we have, you know, ''something to actually base those facts on''.  Because I'm guessing all those stubs will simply be blanked and rewritten once we have a working model.  This wiki is about how a version actually works in practice, rather than Toady's design thoughts.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

On a related note, please do try to ''plan'' your 2010 articles - I saw a page on "traction bed" or something, some element in the new medicine system - that has "stub" written all over it.  Think about what "umbrella topics" might embrace minor details, and how we can create central articles for closely related information.  Which, again, we won't ultimately know until the new version is released and field tested.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

== d40? 40d? ==

What are we going to do when it comes around again? The true number of the current version is 0.28.181.40d - the "d40" is the ''least'' significant part of the version number and will almost certainly happen again, perhaps without the ''d'' which was a bugfix release.

Perhaps only doing the Version for major changes would allow us to use ''nicknames'' for them. Currently we'd have ''2d'', ''d40'', and ''DF2010''. The next major change would get a new name at that time. Perhaps ''Scamps''. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 05:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

:I thought that the current (as in just before 2010) was known as 40d, not d40? And yes, it's the least significant, but it's the name it's taken on.  That happens.--[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 06:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 will almost certainly happen again
::I think perhaps you haven't fully considered what these numbers mean. The current version is 0.28.181.40d.  In "40d" (never "d40"), the "40" refers to "40 bloat elements" added so far, and the "d" refers to "(4) bug fixes for the current version" - the ''only'' way that will happen is if no more "bloat elements" get added, ''and'' that then gets to the 4th bug fix.  If or when that ever does happen, we'll worry about it then - but I'll betcha a dwarfbuck that either common usage will be referring to it as something else, since "40d" is already taken in people's minds, OR it's so far in the future that 40d will be a distant memory (almost by definition, since it will ''not'' be in people's minds). So don't sweat it. Read [[version]] for a full explanation.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 09:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Just to provide a few more examples, there are ''two'' "38a" versions (0.27.'''173'''.38a and 0.27.'''176'''.38a), and back during the 2D days there were actually ''four'' "23a" versions (0.22.'''110'''.23a, 0.22.'''120'''.23a, 0.22.'''123'''.23a, and 0.'''23.130'''.23a, complete with 0.22.'''121'''.23'''b''' in the middle), three "21a"s, and '''five''' "19a"s, so it should be clear just how little that last number actually means. Also, those "d40" references were bugging me too. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 13:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

::::Perhaps we could ask Toady to start giving names to releases to major releases (the type that we would create a new namespace for). It would certainly make chosing namespace names much easier. The only issue would be how likely it is that Toady would actually come up with names. Though I think there are multiple non-wiki reasons that non-number names would be useful, such as stating utility and mod version compatibility. [[User:Emi|Emi]] 14:41, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::Since posting the above, I realized it's possible that the "bloat elements" will get reset with a radical new version. Relying on those is not the most foresightful ''(is that a word? Meh...)'' choice. So maybe the ''entire'' version name??--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== End Goal ==
I set up the [[Dwarf fortress mode]] and [[40d:Dwarf fortress mode]] articles as examples of how I interpreted the end-goal of this process.  Thoughts/concerns?  Of course there are modifications we can do with style/phrasing, but conceptually what does everyone think? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 03:31, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
:Above I mentioned what I think is a better system. It's possible to abuse the interwiki table in the database to allow for dynamic redirects - that is to say, a method by which with one query to the database, all the redirects can be changed. I think it would be best to have the main articles (the mainspace ones) just be redirects of the form <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[curver:Dwarf fortress mode]]</nowiki> where curver is an entry in the interwiki table that redirects to http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/. This way when it's time for a new set (version) of articles to be created, it's as easy as making them in a new namespace, and then updating the interwiki entry. This of course mainly helps for the future, by avoiding lots of grunt work with links, redirects and page moves. As for the version template, we should steal the archive template from wikipedia, it could be modified to auto generate a list of all the versions of a page so that all that has to be added to a give page is <nowiki>{{pagever}}</nowiki> or something. It would automatically generate the list of pages in different version namespaces, and check some unified location for what the current version is, so that it can display whether or not the page you're viewing is for the current version. [[User:Emi|Emi]] 04:23, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

::Completely agree with the idea.  This kind of implementation is onto Briess though.  In the meantime we can work with what we have right?  We can modify the template I set up ({{Tl|ArticleVersion}}) to act like the wikipedia template you mentioned (though I'm unfamiliar with it myself).  Feel free to be bold with that and make the change you think should be made. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

:::As long as we aren't archiving things willy nilly (we won't be, right?) editing an archive link into articles one at a time is a very small task. Especially compared to rewriting the article that you just archived! Keep in mind how slow the rewrite rate is going to be over all. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 16:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

::::There isn't any reason not to make the archive template automatic, its not too hard to do and it does make a little less work for whomever is is editing the article. [[User:Emi|Emi]] 14:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

:It looks good, but we don't need it for every (or even close to every) article. We should carefully pick and choose here. After all, it would just look silly on [[limestone]].  [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 16:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::<nods> Or, for instance, on Fortress Mode. Some articles are going to be "constant" despite version changes, because the details in those articles have less to do with game mechanics and more with basic (and constant) concepts. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:14, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::That's fine, I agree not every article needs to go into the version setup.  And I had no particular attachment to the one I used to test.  I think which articles are "universal" and which are not could definitely change and that discussion can probably happen on each articles talk page. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 02:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
::Articles that remain constant shouldn't exist in game-version namespaces. The problem is of course how this gets measured. I can't really look at limestone right now (typing on a g1 after an appendectomy is hard enough) but as I recall the only game info is basically material value. Though that example is unlikely to change, perhaps in general articles that are constant except for a few numbers should exist in the mainspace and we should just work out some hide/show template that brings up a table with versions and past values. [[User:Emi|Emi]] 14:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Handling even older versions ==

Since we're going through the trouble of keeping around all of the 40d content for the DF 2010 release, it'd make sense to also bring back the 2D version content from the "archive" wiki (or at least what remains of it [http://web.archive.org/web/20080221163738rn_1/archive.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Main_Page here]). Briess has already created a "23a" namespace to hold this content, but the question of how to handle stuff like categories still remains. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:03, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:There's a problem with using "d40" and "23a" - many users will assume they are sequential, which will most likely NOT be true with the next release. Like past years, '99 is early than '01, and '09 is well after '45, etc.  I'm wondering if there's a way to handle that so it's clear, at least with non-current versions. (I'm envisioning several versions down the road, with each "version" being essentially a random number, and no way for a newbie to tell the diff.)  Might not be a big deal, since (usually?) only veterans will be interested in back-versions. Meh, still...--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::When has the final number ever '''decreased''' (and why ''would'' it), aside from the bugfix suffix resetting at "a"? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 23:42, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::I thought it was a function of add-ons to the main version - that is, with radical new versions, the prev "bloat elements" may no longer be relevant and get reset. No?  (If not, nm.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
::::There's a bloat list that Toady theoretically wants to incorporate.  There are 40 items from that list currently incorporated.  Items do not get moved off the list, although its theoretically possible the list may expand in the future.  As such, the bloat counter can only increase (or stay the same). --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 15:01, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::As the 0.28 part of 0.28.181.40d increased (though the .181. part increasing would have the same hypothetical result) with the latest release, we have seen that the final number can certainly decrease with the new 0.31.01. The confusion based around referring to anything but the first 0.## is just going to continue with every new version if we keep referring to solely the end number. It's kind of the same logic as assuming 26 is lower than 19 because 9>6. --[[User:Retro|Retro]] 19:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

==v0.31.01 abbreviation?==
Starting the discussion back up - As we now have v0.31.01, are there any thoughts on what the final version nickname will be (not like the 2010 nickname, but like how 0.28.181.40d## is known as 40d)? I presume with Toady's eventual bugfixes there'll be minor changes still, but it's likely they'll be '.01a/b/c' and similar, and I feel like referring to it as 01c (eg.) would get confusing since without knowing the full version name it gives a sense of being an older version. So I'd like to suggest focusing on the 0.31, which is unlikely to change. When we start getting additional letters for bugfixes and the like, would it be acceptable to appropriate said letter and affix it to the '31' for easy reference? 40d ''was'' 40d, I know, but I'd much prefer a hypothetical 31c to 01c. '0.31' would be the most effective, really, but incorporating the decimal would just get kind of annoying IMO. Other thoughts? --[[User:Retro|Retro]] 18:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
:It looks like this is already being discussed (again) [[Talk:Main_Page#DF2010_Title_needs_changing|here]], take a look at that, and then comment on what you think. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 19:20, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
::Ah bugger. Well, since it looks like everyone's waiting on word back from Toady or ThreeToe, I'll wait too. Should the need arise I can just copy/paste this. --[[User:Retro|Retro]] 19:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)