Editing Talk:Main Page

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# [[Talk:Main Page/archive1|Archive 1]]
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive2|Archive 2]]
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive3|Archive 3]]
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== Needed page; Invader creature roster ==
The page would consist of multiple lists; each of them would have all creatures what certain type of [[Siege]] or [[Ambush]] invaders can field. It would include name, picture, probability of such creature being used on siege, combat role (Soldier/Pet/Mount/exc), size and special qualities (flying, aquatic, immune to whatever, exc). Probably something extra on top of this.

The parts would be:
# Roster of [[goblin]] [[sieges]].
# Roster of [[elf]] [[sieges]].
# Roster of [[human]] [[sieges]].
# Roster of [[dwarf]] [[sieges]].
# Roster of [[necromancer]] [[sieges]].
# Roster of [[bandit]] [[sieges]].
# Roster of [[elf]] [[ambush]].
# Roster of [[kobold]] [[ambush]].
# Roster of [[necromancer]] [[ambush]].
# Roster of [[Subterranean animal peoples|cavemen]] [[ambush]].
# Roster of [[werewolf]] attacks.
# Probably something else what i didn't write yet.

Remember what i can't create pages. So to make it, i would need to write idea there. --[[Special:Contributions/109.62.164.162|109.62.164.162]] 16:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

== How to create a new language page? ==

I've just seen one dwarf requesting a Japanese page.

If possible, I'll gladly translate this wiki into Korean. Korea is relatively a small country so the language is not that widely used, but surely there are some players, I guess.

I don't know where to ask about this :9

== Free SSL Certificate ==

If the operators want to re-enable https, they can get a free (as in beer) certificate from https://letsencrypt.org/ . Instructions are on that site and it's very easy.
:HTTPS is enabled now as of the June 2019 upgrades. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 22:53, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

== Re: Discord ==

I notice there's a Discord on this page.  But shouldn't it be the Kitfox Games Discord, since that's the only official Discord for Dwarf Fortress?

[[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 13:43, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
;I wasn't aware of it. If that is the case, then it should probably be added to the page. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 16:03, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, the only reason there is one at all is because somebody added some random one. I changed it to the only DF discord I knew of at the time. The only way I've now been able to find it is to search for 'Kitfox Games discord'. It's not listed on the bay12 links page, a forum thread, the reddit, or the Steam pages. Anyway, I've DMed Victoria on the KitfoxGames discord to make sure they're OK with adding the invite to this page. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 20:08, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

...Sorry, is it too late for this? I mean, while we're still discussing this, it looks like [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Talk:Main_Page#B12G_Discord someone else got left behind as well]. Add, or not? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 22:21, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you were trying to link to. Do you mean this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163555.0 Note that the thread was locked because of drama. There's a lot of red flags: the drama, despite using the name Bay12Games it never uses the word 'unofficial', the rules channel posts are from a deleted user, the announcements channel hasn't updated in well over a year, many channels haven't been active in months. I'm not so much saying no, but I am asking: should it be linked?

There's also this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157332.0 But that invite is invalid. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 02:35, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah, it's a ''dead'' discord. I see now. There was just no response to the April '17 topic, I stumbled across it all and got curious. No, I don't think it should be linked.  Thanks for the analysis, anyway! [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:44, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

== [[Multithreading]] ==

Would it be OK to create [[Multithreading]] page describing why (preferably with citations)
* even perfectly implemented boost would not be significant
* multithreading is not something that can be bolted on complex program
* DF is complicated case where taking advantage of multithreading is not obvious http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34311.msg7833713#msg7833713
* DF is filled with many gamebreaking bugs unfixed for many years,  multithreading bugs are unusually awful to fix
* author of DF has minimal experiences with multithreading
* writing multithreaded code is hard
* writing correct multithreaded code is awfully hard
* fixing bugs in a multithreaded code is nightmare

and multithreading is not going to happen, ever

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34311.msg7833713#msg7833713
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=107833.0
https://bholley.net/blog/2015/must-be-this-tall-to-write-multi-threaded-code.html + “At Mozilla, there is a sign on the wall behind one of our engineer’s desks. The sign has a dark horizontal line, below which is the text, ‘You must be this tall to write multi-threaded code.’ The line is roughly nine feet off the ground. We created Rust to allow us to lower that sign.” http://www.oreilly.com/programming/free/files/why-rust.pdf

[[User:Mko|Mko]] ([[User talk:Mko|talk]]) 03:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
:I disagree with some of your talking points
:* In DF each AI actor makes its own decisions, the computations can be done in parallel for an ncores speedup
:* This parallelism should be built into the lowest design levels of the program, it can be done in a DF-like program
:* With training and experience a good developer can write and debug multithreaded code.
:I agree that multithreading is unlikely to be done in DF; It can not easily be bolted on and I rather see the developer spend time on game-play.
:Is it worth to create a wiki page for what is essentially a one line explanation?
:--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] ([[User talk:MathFox|talk]]) 18:40, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
::We would essentially be writing a page about a thing that doesn't matter to Dwarf Fortress. I can't agree to the existence of a page that's basically "This subject doesn't exist in the context of the game but here's the reasons why it should or shouldn't". This is better reserved for forum discussion, not a wiki. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 12:54, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

::: Well this aged poorly 
 -- [[User:Antsy555|Antsy555]] ([[User talk:Antsy555|talk]]) 15:38, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

== Re: Discord II ==

Good morning.

I was confiding with some friends, who had alerted me to the "Unofficial Bay 12 Discord" posted on this Wiki.  Simply put, allegations of the use of ableist slurs were thrown, as well as screenshot evidence of using hard racist slurs against people of colour.

I feel that the Unofficial Discord should hereby be removed from the social media part of the website for the following reasons:
* No official connection to Bay 12 or the publishers [and, by extension, every non-Bay12 forum should be removed - especially dead ones]
* This unofficial Discord is actively opposed to the standpoints that Toady One and Threetoe have posted on the bay12games site over the recent days.
* This unofficial Discord uses slurs and other problematic language that actively harms the image of the Dwarf Fortress community
* This unofficial Discord will likely make it so that people steer away from the game.

I do not feel comfortable with the Wiki platforming a known racist Discord server, as that is de facto support of the messages of that server.
[[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 12:02, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Update: Apparently, this same Discord has been banned from the r/dwarffortress subreddit for as long as one of the mods can remember, and the link to it was banned on the official Kitfox Discord as well.  I can post the screenshots I have of actively problematic behaviour on this Discord but I will not do it unless necessary, as the contents are alarming like that which will not be named.  [[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 12:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

:I've removed the link. Safe to say, we don't need the wiki to be associated with this sort of people. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 21:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

::The "Unofficial Bay 12 Discord" was already not linked on the main page - the only place it was mentioned is this talk page. Are you talking about that one or the Unofficial Dwarf Fortress Discord that is linked on the main page? The latter does have it's #elfposting channel, but that channel is initially hidden, opt-in only, and clearly labelled as a lawless zone. For an analogy, there are many very awful subreddits, but we still link to reddit - (yeah that's a little different but not much). Otherwise the unofficial DF discord is well modded and such behavior is not allowed in other channels. So, are you certain which discord/channel the screenshots came from? [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 22:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Since there's some confusion, AlastríonaCatskill, could you confirm and/or provide some evidence that following the link that was on the main page (removed in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=253449&oldid=251109]) takes you to the discord that you were referring to? The only reference I can find to a discord removed from the /r/dwarffortress sidebar is for a different discord, not the one that was linked on the main page (although it's possible that just the invite link was different). I just want to make sure that we're removing the right one here. If you have anything that you don't want to share publicly, you can PM me on the forums (same username) or [[Special:EmailUser/Lethosor|email me]] through the wiki, which I think is working. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

:@Lethosor, I have emailed you the relevant images via the link you had created.  The Discord that was on the main page and removed today is indeed what was being referred to, especially with the confirmation of the #elfposting channel being from said Discord.  In my opinion, @Ziusudra, the inclusion of a problematic part of that community, even as opt-in, is unacceptable in my book for a community to be platformed on this Wiki. [[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 03:26, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I am the owner of the Unofficial Dwarf Fortress discord. I just want to clear a few things up and open a channel of communication.
Several years ago, the original owner of the discord left, in no small part due to all the sexism and racism and such.
After a few days of an having an interim owner, it was given to another user, who onboarded several users as admins, including me.
The new owner tried a lot to curb terrible stuff on the server, however this often lead to drama.

The r/dwarffortress delisting happened after some of that drama spawned a new discord with a more "free speech" orientation,
things spilling over to the forums and other places. Some time after that, she left the server to me, due to the amount of
stress running that place caused her. When I took over I also tried to make it a better place, but with slower and subtler
methods that wouldn't spark drama. Completely disallowing some behaviour outside of #elfposting was part of that,
and later making that channel hidden by default was another. Now, the discord is much much better to be in
than it ever was before, though it still has major flaws. I don't like #elfposting at all myself, but I don't rule with an iron fist nor 
do I know what much I can do without sparking massive drama again. Since April this year I have had some plans to make the discord
quite a bit better, however some of my mods have been against it in part due to feeling it would cause bigger problems
(though, as you probably know, some of them participate in #elfposting).
With recent events, both within and outside the DF community, we have decided to move ahead, every mod on board,
with some plans including phasing out the #elfposting channel in a way which will not create large issues for moderation.
It will be fully gone within one (1) week of now.

Also, I am a tad annoyed that you posted about this here but completely neglected contacting us. In the future, could you
please contact me or one of my mods when you have any concerns about the server? I really do care about these things and we need feedback.
&mdash;[[User:Lonjil|Lonjil]] ([[User talk:Lonjil|talk]]) 10:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

: Thank you for replying here Lonjil.  Unfortunately, I cannot trust your take on this matter for several reasons.
: # One of the moderators has an anti-semitic stereotype profile picture
: # Even if the only place of no censorship is the elfposting channel, and even if it is opt-in, the complete chaos of racist slurs allowed there is completely unacceptable for minority players and an extremely toxic environment.  There have been instances of straight hate speech on the channel / server as well, suggesting to kill people of colour and LGBTQIAA+ people.
: In short, the toxicity of your Discord's community makes it not just uncomfortable, but downright dangerous for minority people playing Dwarf Fortress.  As Tarn and Zach have made liberal-to-leftist political views in the past, the chances of minorities to play the game is higher - and I wouldn't want to be a person of colour signing up for a shitposting channel to only be met with over 10,000 instances of the hard-n word being used. The Discord should remain off of the Wiki until things shape up and all instances of hate speech be purged from server history.  Personally I would rather all non-official channels of communication be removed from the page, period, but that is a less pressing discussion than active hatred of minorities being platformed on the Wiki via your unofficial Discord. [[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 12:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

:: Small edit / follow-up to my previous message.  My friend tells me that elfposting is the most commonly used channel, which goes to show the level of hatred allowed into the community.  It may be best to remove the channel in entirety, and make a new meme channel with no hate speech allowed. [[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 12:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

::: The admin you are referring to is a jew, who lives in Israel. I prefer to not police people of other ethnicities when it comes to negative stereotypes and such of themselves, they know what they are comfortable with far better than I ever could.

::: Elfposting is not, by any reasonable measure, the most used channel. It has fewer users than any other channel. It has a fair number of messages, but only because there is no rule against spamming in there. So, nearly all of it is spam, which was the point of the channel to begin with.

::: "It may be best to remove the channel in entirety" this is exactly what is happening, as I already said. We're giving the channel regulars a few days to hear the news, but then the channel will be gone. We already have a more pleasant meme channel from an experiment we did in April, which we are bringing back. &mdash;[[User:Lonjil|Lonjil]] ([[User talk:Lonjil|talk]]) 13:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi all - thanks for keeping this discussion civil. I've been investigating the policies of other DF communities, and I've come to the conclusion that it would be best for the wiki to only link to the official DF Discord (Kitfox). I'll also make a pass through the other sites linked on the main page. I'm sorry to those of you working hard to maintain Discords and other unofficial communities out there - I know it's difficult, and I don't want to judge your communities without being a part of them. However, there will always be debates like these about whether a community deserves to be linked from a more "official" place, like the wiki, and no matter where we draw the line(s), people will be upset. The policy of only linking to the Kitfox Discord seems to have worked for other communities, which is why I'm applying it here. I would be happy to have a broader discussion at [[DF:Centralized Discussion]] if anyone wants to. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 01:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

== Put Chinese language wiki on other Languages ==
Found it on Internet([http://cdf.wikidot.com/start]) <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:45.58.187.66|45.58.187.66]]</small>

:I added a link to it. I'm not sure what the process is for adding interwiki link support (support for links to pages in the sidebar, like how [[DF2014:Cat]] links to http://dfwk.ru/Cat) but I can look into that too. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 01:40, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
::Hello! I'm the admin of [https://dfzh.huijiwiki.com/ Chinese Dwarf Fortress wiki], and I've previous put its link on the main page. We've now enabled interwiki link from our site to English site, and we wish to get one back from English site to CN site as well. Hope that is possible, and thanks so much! The URL for our site should be: <code>https://dfzh.huijiwiki.com/wiki/$1</code> [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|xjtu-blacksmith 黑山雁]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 11:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

:::Added. Prefix is "zh", for example: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=266849&oldid=266730 &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 19:45, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

== Villains Wiki ==

To started putting some creatures on the Villains Wiki, because I want to spread the word of Dwarf Fortress around, and these creatures fit the theme of the wiki anyway. Here's an example page, and the template of all pages:<br>
[https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Goblins_(Dwarf_Fortress) Villains - Goblins]<br>
[https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Dwarf_Fortress_Villains Villains - Template of DF Villains]

If anyone could add more info to those pages, or think more creatures should be on that wiki, please let me know. Or you could add it yourself. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

== Replace Chinese Wiki with the new one on Fandom ==

The previous Chinese wiki on wikidot seems to be inactive for a long time, with its main page refers to the download link of v0.44.10, and most pages are never updated even earlier than that version. Recently we are working on a new site on Fandom ([https://dwarf-fortress.fandom.com/zh]), trying to keep everything up to date. Wish to replace the links on dwarffortresswiki's main page and the sidebar link (inter-language link) with the one at Fandom, so that more people may get to the right place and join us. [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|xjtu-blacksmith 黑山雁]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 04:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

:I've added the link of Fandom site onto the main page, without removing the previous one. [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|xjtu-blacksmith 黑山雁]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 11:09, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
:We've migrated Chinese Wiki to huijiwiki.com, which is now shown on Main Page. [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|xjtu-blacksmith 黑山雁]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 07:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

::Added. The "zh" prefix should work for links. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 19:43, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

== Kitfox Discord ==

<blockquote>
''2022-04-15 BlueManedHawk . . (8,594 bytes) (-135)‎ . . (The Kitfox Games discord server has an unethical code of law. I don't think the wiki should be supporting it.)''

''2022-04-15 Ziusudra . . (8,729 bytes) (+135)‎ . . (Undo revision 263652 by BlueManedHawk[:] please discuss changes such as this on the talk page first) (Tag: Undo)''
</blockquote>

Alright, I can do that.

The Kitfox Games discord server has a code of law that contains the following immoralities:

- Is very vague and nebulous, allowing the moderators to exploit the vagueness to be able to do very different things in similar circumstances in alignment with their biases.  (Not that they do that, but the fact that it's possible is concerning.)

- Contains a "These rules are subject to common sense." clause, essentially meaning that the moderators are able to do whatever they want and hide it behind the barrier of "common sense".  This goes completely against the point of the concept of rules in the first place as a promise from those in power in regards to what they will and will not do.

- Allows for infinite punishment.

That last one could do with a bit of explaining.  Let us begin with the premise that the punishment for a crime should be proportional to the severity of the crime.  I think we can all agree on this.  Therefore, an infinite punishment should only ever be given for an infinite crime.  However, humans are not infallible.  People make mistakes.  And this means that if a court of law is able to administer an infinite punishment, they run the risk of accidentally giving somebody an infinite punishment that they do not deserve.  This, I think we can all agree, is unnacceptable.  Therefore, infinite punishment cannot every be administered ethically.

I hope that this explains why I want the link to the Kitfox games discord removed.

Regards,

—[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 22:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
:* Their rules are not vague or nebulous, they even give examples of what the rules cover. Of all the discords I am on, their rules are some of the most detailed.
:* The "''depending on the action and our judgement''" is quite similar to the "''depending on how disruptive you were and your prior history''" found in the DF forum rules, and is pretty standard social media boilerplate and is itself common sense.
:* Their rules state "''Breaking these rules will result in a warning or ban''", which is not at all "''infinite punishment''", and is again quite similar to the "''If you violate the guidelines, you will be warned, muted for a period of days, or banned completely''" on the forums. It's not like they can keep anyone from playing the game or interacting with the other communities.
: Your referring to their rules as "code of law" is hyperbolic. Their rules are quite similar to the rules of the forum. So, I disagree and think the link should stay. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 23:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
::* The rules are pretty vague.  Examples aren't enough.  A strict, clear, unambiguous definition is necessary to prevent abuse.
::* While it is true that their clause is ''normal'', that doesn't mean it's ''right''.
::* The explanation of bans doesn't explain how long the bans will last.  Since there's nothing explicitly stating that infinite punishment won't be given, and since "ban" by itself generally refers to a permanent ban, I think that it's allowing infinite punishment.
::* I'm not sure how the term "code of law" is hyperbolic.  I use the term synonymously with "set of rules".
::* I can't seem to find a code of law for the forums.  However, if what you said is true, then clearly we should also remove the link to the forums.
::
:: Regards,
::
:: —[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 02:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
::: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27009 It's linked in the header at the top of every forum page, though if the header is collapsed you won't see it.
::: Unambiguous rules are technically impossible since human behavior is limitless. That's why we hav judges for actual laws - even society's strictest laws need a human adjudicator. Then, even with "permanent bans", both Kitfox and Bay12 hav public email addresses and twitter accounts which can be used to petition to hav a ban removed.
::: Finally, suggesting the removal of the links to the official forums for the game this wiki is dedicated to is unreasonable, to the point of making me wonder if you're trolling. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 04:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

::::I agree with Ziusudra. More broadly, I think we should keep links to "official" DF channels, and Kitfox is a DF publisher. If a potential for "infinite punishment" warrants removing links to the offending site, then by your logic, we should remove all links to the wiki from the wiki because users here have been banned permanently. That has been done based on the best judgement of the people who volunteer their time to run the wiki and has been open to appeals, and I expect other channels are similar. I'm not interested in entertaining this argument here. If you have specific issues with a specific external site, I suggest that you get in touch with the moderators there instead. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 05:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

:::::Hello.

:::::As I mentioned below, the DFWiki is in a position of power, and by removing the link to them, we can potentially force their hand into making their code of law more moral.  On the other hand, keeping the link there could potentially be seen as supporting their immoral behavior, tarnishing the reputation of the site.  This is why I brought up my issues with an external site onto this one:  because these issues also affect it.

:::::It is true that by my logic, the DFwiki is operating immorally.  However, I would like to mention that ''you are in a position of power on the wiki'', Lethosor.  I would think that you have the ability to change the Wiki's code of law to be more moral.  You have the choice to make the wiki a better place, and I advise that you take it.

:::::Regards,

:::::—[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 06:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

::::Hello.

::::* I don't know which header you're referring to—wherever it is, it seems to not be there for me.  Regardless, I thank you for clarifying which guidelines you were referring to.
::::* Unambiguous rules are largely impossible because nobody has yet created an unambiguous language.  However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still seek to get as close to unambiguous as possible when constructing a code of law.
::::* Claiming that the bans are transient because it's possible to appeal them is optimistic, and while there is a place for optimism, this is not it.  Any potential that a legal system has for corruption is one that we cannot assume will not be used, and often, corruption begets corruption, continuing the cycle until a revolution happens.
::::* Being a central repository of knowledge on DF, the DFwiki is in a position of power.  If we do remove the link to the Kitfox discord under the condition that they make their code of law more moral, then we can theoretically force their hand, maybe.  There is, of course, a risk to this, and this should be deliberated before a decision is made.
::::* I am not a troll.  Why does everybody keep thinking that?

::::Regards,

::::—[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 06:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

== Advertisements problem ==

One of the full-page advertisements(a pop-up that obscures the whole page) had what looked like a "close" button, but it just tried to redirect me to another page.
Full page advertisments aren't untoward but like, web elements that say 'close' are expected to do what they say, otherwise it's intercepting clicks. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Eerr|Eerr]]</small>

:Do you have a screenshot of the offending ad, or can you take one if it happens again? My understanding is that that is something we (admins) don't have control over, but we can report misleading ads to Google. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 03:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

== Kitfox Discord (again) ==

Hi.  I'm again requesting the removal of the link to the Kitfox discord server for only two reasons this time:  the code of law gives infinite power to the moderators, and the criminal justice system uses punishment to deal with criminals.  These are obviously both immoral, and until the server fixes these issues, the DF wiki ought to remove the link so as not to seem to be promoting them.  [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 21:45, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
:And again, I don't support removing the official publisher's discord just because you think that there is some thing wrong with their completely normal and reasonable moderation practices, none of which involves "infinite power", "punishment", "criminals", or other such hyperbole. Banning is not "punishment", it is protection of the community from those that act to harm it, nor is it "infinite power" since all it does is keep those rule breakers off one discord server and nothing else. All of which also happens on both the Bay12 Forums and this very wiki, both of which, by your logic, you should immediately stop using lest you appear to be promoting them. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 03:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
::Normalizing of horribly unethical practices is not okay.  I do not think it is hyperbole to use the terms "infinite power, "punishment", and "criminals".  The server is a jurisdiction like any other, and it should be held to the same standards of morality as any other—this includes not using punishment as a means to deal with those who break the law.  It is completely possible to protect the community without using bans—bans simply get rid of problems instead of fixing them, and are ineffective against the diligent.  Infinite power is not an okay thing to give to those who govern a jurisdiction—dictatorial power structures have been shown to fail many times over throughout history.
::
::If we simply must keep any official venues for DF on the main page, regardless of morality (this includes the forums, which i agree should also be removed), then the Wiki ought to put a disclaimer of some sort clarifying that they are being listed not in support of the governance policies of the communities, but simply because they are official.
::
::[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 17:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
:::Good god, how many of these discussions are you gonna keep making? Is there anything that ''doesn't'' offend you? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:14, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
::::There's no need to be rude.  But to answer your question, i'm going to have as many discussions as are necessary until a concensus is reached.  [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 21:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::You can't keep just keep making constant requests of "guys can we please remove that and that and that and this and this because of like business and anti-competitive stuff and yeah and like" but then turn around and go "why does everyone think I'm a troll?" Can you seriously not connect those two things together? I've been part of this community for a long time, and you are the one and only person who gets all offended by things that no one else would even care to think about. This wiki is not the place for that. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 10:48, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
::::::I really don't understand why people think that i'm a troll.  If you or someone else were to explain it to me in a manner that's more polite than your previous messages have been, i'd be happy to listen. [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 20:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Hmmmmmmm, no. I'm gonna skip the "polite" thing and just speak the truth. No regrets. The fact that you can't see why people think you're a troll makes the situation even worse. You're someone who got all bent out of shape over a Minecraft diamond reference, something that no one else would ever care about. You keep saying you don't see how people think you're a troll when it was explained to you many times. All this goofy legal stuff you keep bringing up is best left elsewhere. Not here. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:59, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

== Wiki logo ==

The new wiki logo requires getting used to. Personally, I wouldn't mind something simpler like [[:File:Dfhack-logo.png|DFhacks]] with a more fancy version going to the mainpage. Maybe someone from the community can come up with something, here is what [https://ibb.co/26J569S my meager skill] able to come up with --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 13:20, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
:I just noticed it and I have to agree. It's like being hit in the face with a brick. It references DF relatively deep lore ([[obsidian]] and [[semi-molten rock]]) and it feels way too harsh compared to the relatively relatable and much more early-game relevant icon of a dwarf mining. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 13:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
:: For reference here is the [[:File:DFDefault.png|digger]] from the classic intro and bellow rendering of what steam version uses in its loading phase, as well as [https://ibb.co/mtzdLm3 this simple variant]
<diagram>
 ¦¦¦¦¦¦ 
¦      ¦
¦      ¦
¦ ¦  ¦ ¦
▒      ▒
▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
▒▒ ¦¦ ▒▒
 ▒▒▒▒▒▒
   ▒▒▒
    ▒▒
</diagram> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 15:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

== steam release ==

: "''We are working on a migration that will be complete in the next few days''"
Any estimate on how long that is going to take? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
: Additionally, who is working on this wiki migration, and why is it a closed process? I feel like the migration could have been largely completed by now if everyone was able to help, but that sentiment may just be coming from my ignorance. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 00:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
::See thread at [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions#v50_organization]]. Emi and I are planning to use a MediaWiki bot for this. My current ETA is 2 days from now. I've asked for help in a few places to write such a bot and have had no responses. My concern with a manual migration (e.g. if we have people copy over just some pages manually) is that it would likely result in a state that is much more complicated to finish. I'm sorry it hasn't gotten done yet. Open to help with automating this. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 04:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Ah, that page completely eluded me! Thanks for pointing in that direction. I would be totally willing to help write a bot, just let me know what I can do. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 14:37, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Thanks for offering. I actually ended up with some time today to work on the migration script. It's almost done, just need to run some final checks before setting it loose. Hopefully tomorrow. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 07:15, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

== wiki tasks ==

Dwarf old head but new account. I'm trying to do a little grunt work for migrating raws and stuff every time I browse the wiki but adding raws is gated behind the adding a page permission. Is there a honey-do list for stuff that needs editing in order to get some contributions under my belt? ☺ --[[User:Hotty gremlin|Hotty gremlin]] ([[User talk:Hotty gremlin|talk]]) 01:47, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:This lists every page that still has the migration template on it: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Migrated_article  [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 02:26, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

== New main page gallery images ==

Should we start some sort of initiative, maybe over discord as well, for people to provide a few new images from the premium version to use on the main page? --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 15:47, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:What's stopping us from just extracting the sprites?  [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 23:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::Nothing, but I'm talking about screenshots from in-game similar to the ones in [[Main_Page/gallery]]. :) --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Ahhh.  Yeah, i suppose that half of the screenshots should be from Premium.  [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 20:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC) 
::Same as one can do from any official screenshots or youtube videos. And lets just say that anyone who want to get their hands on the sprites will not waste time here, there are far easier/quicker alternatives so much so that I can probably make you lmgtfy link for it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, I think there has historically been some level of notability in the screenshots provided, and I'd like for that to continue. E.g. a screenshot of an interesting event would be a good fit, but a screenshot of two cats for the sake of showing something with the premium tileset might not be such a good fit. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 03:13, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

== Migration Progress ==

{{User:OddballJoe/Sandbox/MigrationProgress}}
Made a migration progress bar we could use for the main page. I think it might be a bit too depressing, haha. I'd add a separate category for [[Template:migrated section]] to populate it. Might need to double-check [[User:OddballJoe/Sandbox#stats|my math]] before adding it. [[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 02:23, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

:Fixed the math, looks good to me. Will add if nobody objects. [[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 19:28, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

== Proposal for holistic crafting/construction format changes across the wiki ==

I propose that any item, workshop, or building that can be constructed or crafted have a unified formatting applied to its entry page pertaining to its constituent components ("Rock boulder x1"), product output ("Rock block x4), and workshop of construction ("Stoneworker's Workshop").

Problem being solved: User visiting pages on the wiki is met with inconsistent or absent information regarding the production and workshop location of many if not most items.  When this information does exist, it is typically located inconsistently within the page in-line with narrative text.

"Steel" on the wiki is the best example of this being done but with this proposal I feel that a unified tabled format would help improve readability across the board and build user expectation.

I'm new to wikis but I am starting my workday now and will revisit this topic throughout the day to propose a format to seek feedback and gauge temperature on the subject.

Individual item names within a recipe should be hyperlinked to the wiki entry for that item for good UX, contributing to a user's ability to flow through their problem and quickly find the information they're seeking.

To get the ball rolling, parameters for some examples would be:

"Rock Block"

Recipe

Skill used: Stonecrafter

Workshop: Stoneworker's Shop

Required Components: Economic or Non-economic Stone Boulder x1

Resulting Product: Stone Block x4

"Metworker's Shop"

Recipe

Required Components: Stone Boulders, Blocks, Bars x1

"Bridge"

Recipe

Required Components: Stone Boulders, Blocks, Bars x(Variable)

Note: Please mind the formatting on this proposal, though the idea is sound I've yet to interface with this markup, my field is UI/UX and I will revisit this post once I've brushed up on wiki formatting to make this proposal shine. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Venality|Venality]]</small>

: I'm in favor of something like this. We already do it for workshops with {{tl|V50_workshop}} and could do something similar for items. Couple of thoughts:
* Some of the recipes (aka reactions) are defined in the raws, not sure what proportion. It might be worth considering automating the inclusion of some of this data from raws, with parser functions or Scribunto or an external script.
* A lot of this data would be helpful to cross-reference. E.g. an item page lists the workshop needed to make it, the workshop page lists the items it can make, and a material page lists the items that can be made from it. This could be set up to stay up-to-date with an extension like [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cargo Cargo]; I've never used it but it looks reasonably straightforward. That could help organize a lot of other data too, like creatures. [[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 19:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

== Bad caching of main page ==

Viewing the main page right now, logged out in an incognito window, displays the latest version as v50.05 and the "up-to-date" article count as 266, instead of v50.07 and 310. The html shows "Cached 20230205190127", so it's a 3-day old cached page. It also says "Cache expiry: 3600", which seems to imply hourly expiry. Maybe adding <nowiki>{{CURRENTHOUR}}</nowiki> to the page will force a cache expiry via the magic word cache logic? In any case, caching needs to be fixed so we're not serving outdated pages. —[[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 17:43, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

== Outdated Knockout Link ==

Please update the link to the Knockout forum thread to [https://knockout.chat/thread/46824 this one], as the current link on the page links to a closed thread. I'd do it myself but the Main Page appears to be locked to admin-only edits now. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 13:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

== Duplicate version links ==

At the top of the page, under the number of articles, are links to the previous versions. At the bottom of the page, more version links are listed after "Archives", which appear to be redundant and can be removed. --[[User:Cali|Cali]] ([[User talk:Cali|talk]]) 01:28, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

== Remove the link to Masterwork ==

Hello. Currently the Other/Mods section has a link to [[Masterwork:Main_Page|the Masterwork namespace]]. I vouch for that link to be removed for three reasons:
# 
# It no longer works with the current version of DF, due to the mod changes in v50.01. A mod(pack) which is not playable on the version of the namespace, should not be advertised before all others, if at all. The [[list of mods]] does not include mods which are outdated for the namespace.
# I believe that its popularity has heavily waned, and though it once was a contender for the most popular raw setup (including vanilla!), this is far from the case now. It not being updated for a long time likely contributes. So the break-out popularity of its past which warranted a link does no longer exist.
# The downloads are broken/removed due to the whole Meph debacle. This is an issue with the Masterwork namespace as a whole, which needs separate discussion over there. But essentially it breaks the purpose of the Masterwork namespace, since they document an unavailable mod, and fail in providing (links to) downloads for the mod. The Main Page should not link to pages that serve no purpose.

--[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 11:26, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

:That sounds fine to me. The only edit in the past [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:RecentChanges?hidebots=1&namespace=1000%3B1001&limit=500&days=90&enhanced=1&urlversion=2 90 days] was a spam edit to [[Masterwork:Salamander]]. What link should we put in its place? It would be nice to keep an even number of links if we can. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 03:43, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

::Category:Game_development maybe? Fits the category of "other", isn't already on the main page, and is of general interest. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 22:04, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

:::What about [[DFHack]]? It is an utility like others in the linked [[utilities]] article, but it is greater in scope and likely popularity, to the point of being on Steam separately from ''Dwarf Fortress'' itself. The Other/Mods section seems to be about a combination of ways players can interact with the game and add to it, beyond its usual scope, and technical details. DFHack fits right into this by not only being a player-made utility, but by providing an environment for players to binary hack the game, and of course being highly technical.  &mdash;[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 09:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

== Broken Bug Tracker Link ==

The "Mantis Bug Tracker" link on the main page (at the bottom in the "Useful Links" section) is broken, pointing at the old bug reporting page.
As per the [https://kitfoxgames.notion.site/How-to-Report-Bugs-in-Dwarf-Fortress-Updated-Nov-2023-b5e2ca19dabe408897d1c2669599b7a2 Kitfox Announcement (from Nov 2023)], it should now be pointing to the page https://dwarffortressbugtracker.com.
I'd also recommend updating the text of the link from "Mantis Bug Tracker" to just "Bug Tracker" or "Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker".

Note that I already made this update on the [[Known bugs and issues]] page, it just needs to be propagated to the main page (which I can't do because the main page is locked).