Editing v0.34 Talk:Quickstart guide

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== Using defaults versus extra detail ==
I came here after being told a bunch of things that the quickstart says that are just stupid. For cleaning up, we should probably move almost all of this detail to the relevant pages. For a QUICK start, I'd recommend using the defaults for everything possible. This would include the word generation, embark location (which is usually pretty decent), and skill/equipment loadout. The other details should come later, or be linked to for those that are curious about these extra details.
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==Old info==
This is still slightly out of date... For example, kennels appear to only train vermin--[[Special:Contributions/173.3.16.92|173.3.16.92]] 02:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

==Newbie question about trade depot==
I'm a newbie. This guide indicates that I should have my trade depot at the end of a hall that is one space wide. If I do that, the caravan can't reach the depot when it comes. Should I widen the hallway when a caravan arrives, or will it be too late? Also, if I widen the hallway, how can I make it narrow again to tighten my defense?[[Special:Contributions/24.151.147.137|24.151.147.137]] 13:03, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

: That "Level 0" image was probably from one of the 0.31.x versions where wagons were broken.  In the current version, wagons are back, so you should make a 3-wide path to your trade depot.  You'll need to ensure that wagons have an accessible path ''before'' they show up.  If the caravan arrives and there's no path, the wagons will vanish and you'll just get the merchants with single pack animals.  --[[User:Greycat|Greycat]] 14:02, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm out of practice and a few versions behind and I got lost when I was told to put the hall before the depot and then found out I couldn't trap the hall after all. --[[User:Scribbler|Scribbler]] 14:06, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I found that when I went to build the trade depot I couldn't because I needed three types of material. It might be worth mentioning that possibility and the required steps to solve it. --[[Special:Contributions/109.152.24.60|109.152.24.60]] 23:40, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

== Better farm plot explanation ==
Another Newbie here, first off: thanks for the guide! But, expanding the "Sustenance by plow"-paragraph about how to identify soil/how to identify possible places for a farm plots would help very much, especially about how to find good places underground witgout knowing where to search. -- [[Special:Contributions/77.1.211.253|77.1.211.253]] 16:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

== Inaccuracies ==

Reposted from the forum:
The quickstart guide has what appears to be a couple pieces outdated info, at least from my limited/nooby knowledge. I want to check that they are inaccurate before I change them.

1: "Also make some shields out of wood (since the shield's material doesn't matter for defensive purposes), unless you're swimming in metal."
 - Materials do matter now, right? (according to the armor page)

2: "Build a kennel and train some war animals" --[[Special:Contributions/173.3.16.92|173.3.16.92]] 17:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

3: "Create stone fall traps near the start of your entry hall" - [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=109473.0 traps block wagon access], perhaps a section on designing a wagon accessible trapped entry hall should be added? -- [[Special:Contributions/178.73.212.241|178.73.212.241]] 21:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


Hey, I'm a beginner, and this part caused a lot of confusion for me, it wasn't until I read your link that I realised it's a recent change, and that's why traps are blocking my wagons, I guess it means I'm going to have to work out how to fix it myself, but it would be nice if a pro could update it a little, or at least add in this new change so noobs aren't confused at this point and left floundering, like I was... Thanks also to everyone who helped create this guide!!! I definitely wouldn't have bothered learning if it wasn't for this! [[User:Fleecemaster|Fleecemaster]] 12:55, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

== More Extensive Layout Examples == 
For a complete beginner like me, it got kind of confusing when we were told good things to put on floor 0, -1, and then skipped straight to floor -9, and then back up to -2.  Then all that empty space in between, I'm personally a bit lost as to what should be put on which floor. I know it's up to us, but I'm not sure why we had to skip so many floors if there's nothing to even put there.  A section about what should be put near what for efficiency would be nice.  [[User:Hesuchia|Hesuchia]] 18:44, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

== Explanations ==
Hey, I'm also a beginner, but I read in the "bedroom" section that the bedrooms should be built deep to keep away from noise, such as woodcutting on the surface. I think this is why the tutorial suggests building the bedroom so low, and leaving such a large gap! Hope this helps! [[User:Fleecemaster|Fleecemaster]] 12:37, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, if something can be summed up in a sentence or two, then it should be in there.--[[User:Scribbler|Scribbler]] 14:06, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

== Bedrooms == 
Just wanted to point out that trying to build beds, cabinets, and coffers, all at once is a bit labor-intensive and nearly impossible to keep up with once the bigger migrations start popping up. I think that the Cabinets + Coffers part should maybe be added as a suggestion to do eventually, as it is by no means necessary to do in the early stages of the game. -- [[Special:Contributions/219.110.224.136|219.110.224.136]] 14:14, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Amen to this. I personally, once I get stuff mildly settled, build a second Mason's workshop just so I can have him make doors on repeat, because I'm OCD and like having doors everywhere. Plus it makes the dorfs less pissy when they inevitably start starving. I know I have a tough enough time remembering to make enough BEDS, let alone comfort furnishings. -- [[Special:Contributions/174.21.25.90|174.21.25.90]] 5:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

== Maisma ==

Under the section of refuse it has a picture that says to have your refuse pile outside or designate a dump, I'm moderately sure that refuse still creates miasma if dumped but can someone confirm this before I make any changes -- [[User:Timlyo|Timlyo]] 16:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

== Thirst ==

I've got dwarves dying of thirst long before finishing all the steps in this guide. Perhaps a way to address that should be added? [[User:Sparr|Sparr]] 20:07, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

== German wiki ==
The German pages (marked '''de:''') are now avaible under www (dot) gerugon (dot) de (slash) wiki. would be nice if you could link the de-ref there. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:79.206.195.135|79.206.195.135]]</small>
: Cool. That's something an admin would need to do, so I'm [[User talk:Briess#German wiki links|forwarding it]] to [[User:Briess|Briess]]. Thanks for letting us know! --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 18:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
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-'''Please leave any feedback here and sign with <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code>''' <!-- IMPORTANT: Do NOT copy the <nowiki> or <code> tags. ONLY copy this: --~~~~ -->
+Please leave any feedback here and sign with <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>
-== newbie questions ==
-how to save the game?
 == Using defaults versus extra detail ==
 I came here after being told a bunch of things that the quickstart says that are just stupid. For cleaning up, we should probably move almost all of this detail to the relevant pages. For a QUICK start, I'd recommend using the defaults for everything possible. This would include the word generation, embark location (which is usually pretty decent), and skill/equipment loadout. The other details should come later, or be linked to for those that are curious about these extra details.
-<small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Scribbler|Scribbler]]</small>
+<nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>
 ==Old info==
@@ Line 30: / Line 27: @@
 : "Also make some shields out of wood (since the shield's material doesn't matter for defensive purposes), unless you're swimming in metal."
   - Materials do matter now, right? (according to the armor page)
-: [[DF2012:Armor#Encumbrance]] says that weight is more important. Supported by [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Military_testing#Steel_vs._Wooden_Shield_.28tested_by:_apostle602.29 test results]. --[[User:Njals|Njals]] ([[User talk:Njals|talk]]) 08:28, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 : "Build a kennel and train some war animals" --[[Special:Contributions/173.3.16.92|173.3.16.92]] 17:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
@@ Line 50: / Line 47: @@
 Amen to this. I personally, once I get stuff mildly settled, build a second Mason's workshop just so I can have him make doors on repeat, because I'm OCD and like having doors everywhere. Plus it makes the dorfs less pissy when they inevitably start starving. I know I have a tough enough time remembering to make enough BEDS, let alone comfort furnishings. -- [[Special:Contributions/174.21.25.90|174.21.25.90]] 5:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
-Agreed. I'll probably remove this soon, or possibly move it to a separate guide. --[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 02:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 == Maisma ==
@@ Line 64: / Line 59: @@
 The German pages (marked '''de:''') are now avaible under www (dot) gerugon (dot) de (slash) wiki. would be nice if you could link the de-ref there. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:79.206.195.135|79.206.195.135]]</small>
 : Cool. That's something an admin would need to do, so I'm [[User talk:Briess#German wiki links|forwarding it]] to [[User:Briess|Briess]]. Thanks for letting us know! --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 18:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
-== stout labor ==
-During transcript of this passage I occcured that in this paragraph some part is missing, but I duno exatly what the orignal author wanted to write:
-"When dwarves are idle, it could be because you haven't given them anything to do, or it could be because none of the idle dwarves have been told that they're allowed to do the types of tasks you've designated." It's missing what dwarfs do, when they are idle. I have added some suitable thing in my transscription, but don't want to bring it in without discussing. [[Special:Contributions/79.242.128.219|79.242.128.219]] 08:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
-:Well, they don't do ''anything'' when they're idle. The part about not being allowed to do tasks occurs when (for example) you've ordered a workshop to be built, but you have no dwarves with a relevant labor enabled (for example, trying to build a [[mechanic's workshop]] with no mechanics).  --{{User:Lethosor/sig}} 20:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
-== Medium Evil? ==
-The Choosing a Good Site section, says to see a chart for why "Calm" is desirable, but the chart makes no mention of "Medium Evil".  After some reading I suspect that "Low Evil" = "Good" (on that chart page) and "Medium Evil" = "Neutral" (on that chart page), but I'm not sure and it'd be nice if this text was clearer:
-<code>
-Notes about find tool: "Calm" is classified as Medium Evil, Low Savagery. (See the [[Surroundings#Combinations_of_surroundings|the chart here]] for why.)
-</code>
-<small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:75.136.109.74|75.136.109.74]]</small>
-:You're right, it should have been "Neutral" (I think this may have been left over from v0.31). Hopefully this makes it clearer, but let me know if it doesn't. --[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 14:26, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
-== Feedback: Placement ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">Section: Brewing and Cooking</div>
-I think brewing should at least go above furniture, if not above bedrooms. Dwarves can survive without a bedroom with three personal pieces of furniture (they should end up sleeping in the meeting area at this point, which is reasonably safe), and can certainly eat without dozens of tables and chairs. However, a fortress can collapse quickly without alcohol or water (which can freeze without warning), so I think this section should be moved up (possibly merged with the Drinks section under Food). Cooking can stay where it is for now, since setting up a working farm has already been covered, and that should be producing enough food to sustain a fortress. --[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 20:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
-== Feedback: Clarity ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">Section: [[DF2012:Quickstart guide#Traps|Traps]]</div>
-I didn't really understand how this related to the fortress built, perhaps an image would be helpful. Same applies to the entire traps/dogs/drawbridge component of this guide. --[[Special:Contributions/114.76.25.136|114.76.25.136]] 14:13, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
-:Traps are an important step in defending a fortress, usually being more reliable at first than militia. Guard dogs are useful because they spot instantly any [[kobold]] that passes in a 3 tile wide corridor. And a drawbridge is useful because, in case of a [[Siege]] or some guests visiting, you can lock yourself inside your fortress, as bridges, when raised, act as an ''indestructible'' wall. IMHO, they are better explained at their own pages, and it "encourages" those who read the guide to look into the pages. Explaining how everything works is not the point of the quickstart guide.--[[User:Doktoro Reichard|Doktoro Reichard]] ([[User talk:Doktoro Reichard|talk]]) 13:09, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
-== Feedback: Inconsistent reference ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">Section: [[DF2012:Quickstart guide#Offices (Studies)|Offices (Studies)]]</div>
-Section mentions that the "Bedroom" section prepared a room for the Office, but that other section makes no such reference. --[[Special:Contributions/24.18.113.193|24.18.113.193]] 01:47, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
-:Fixed. --[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 02:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
-== Feedback: Just wanted to say thank you ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">No section specified</div>
-The article was very informative, helpful, and well-written. --[[Special:Contributions/137.186.198.242|137.186.198.242]] 19:52, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
-== Feedback: confusion about digging ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">Section: [[DF2012:Quickstart guide#Strike The Earth!|Strike The Earth!]]</div>
-Hey, so this is super helpful, but I've never played before, and I kept getting confused about how to dig, because it doesn't START by saying precisely where I should dig, i.e. that I have to dig into a cliff or something, or channel first, so I just kept trying to dig on flat land. Anyway, maybe this is obvious to everyone else, but it tripped me up for a few minutes. so maybe before describing how precisely TO designate the digging action, you should indicate how to find the correct spot to dig. I dunno. Thanks! --[[Special:Contributions/68.49.92.24|68.49.92.24]] 06:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
-:As with all things in live, there is no right or wrong answer. The most important part in the beginning of a first fortress is to go ''inside the earth'', hence there are two ways to do that: either by digging into a level of soil/rock near your wagon or by channeling downwards, hence traveling to the rock below. Each have non-trivial advantages and disadvantages that on the first fortress (due to the biome selection) shouldn't matter much. I think your problem lies with the fact there isn't made a ''visual'' distinction (in the form of a screenshot) between digging and channeling. I can take one if it helps.--[[User:Doktoro Reichard|Doktoro Reichard]] ([[User talk:Doktoro Reichard|talk]]) 10:23, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
-== Feedback: 80 people ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">Section: [[DF2012:Quickstart guide#Military|Military]]</div>
-I learned the hard way about what happens when you get 80 dwarfs --[[Special:Contributions/166.216.157.51|166.216.157.51]] 07:57, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
-== Feedback: "Number of barrels currently in your stockpile" ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">Section: [[v0.34:Quickstart guide# Brewing | Brewing ]]</div>
-Not sure that the average new user will be able to accurately determine how many barrels are in the stockpile already. --[[Special:Contributions/204.195.88.92|204.195.88.92]] 06:08, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
-== Feedback: Traps, Guard Animals and Bridges ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">Section: [[v0.34:Quickstart guide#Beyond a Minimal Fortress|Beyond a Minimal Fortress]]</div>
-These sections should have more illustrative examples like the "Bedroom", "Dining and Food Prep Area" and "Delving Secure Lodgings". It's important to get a feeling of different layouts to use, where to place traps, bridges and the trade depot areas, as well as showing paths (with arrows) that intruders would normally use. I'd say it would be better to merge these sections into one, something like "Securing your fortress" with the steps to take with a full picture of optimal layouts. --[[Special:Contributions/2601:9:4980:3BF:906E:F00:D08E:8217|2601:9:4980:3BF:906E:F00:D08E:8217]] 16:08, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
-== Feedback: Unquantitative ==
-<div style="color:#888;padding-left:2em;">Section: [[v0.34:Quickstart guide#Brewing and Cooking|Brewing and Cooking]]</div>
-Is 100 food very good or very bad, for example. What level should we be at? --[[Special:Contributions/174.16.237.135|174.16.237.135]] 16:36, 3 December 2014 (UTC)