- v50 information can now be added to pages in the main namespace. v0.47 information can still be found in the DF2014 namespace. See here for more details on the new versioning policy.
- Use this page to report any issues related to the migration.
Difference between revisions of "v0.31 Talk:Workshop"
(→Concepts and Organization: comments on tiering system) |
(→List/ Chart of workshops showing blocking?: new section) |
||
| (One intermediate revision by one other user not shown) | |||
| Line 8: | Line 8: | ||
As for organizing the Tier System better, I have a question: | As for organizing the Tier System better, I have a question: | ||
| − | '''Should | + | '''Should [[container]]s be taken into consideration to determine the Tier?''' |
Currently, a few workshops (Still, Quern, and Millstone) are listed to consider containers as part of the materials used and, as a result, the goods produced are classified much higher in the Tier than they would otherwise. But most workshops do not do this. I feel a rule should be decided upon to make the Tier System more consistent and clear. | Currently, a few workshops (Still, Quern, and Millstone) are listed to consider containers as part of the materials used and, as a result, the goods produced are classified much higher in the Tier than they would otherwise. But most workshops do not do this. I feel a rule should be decided upon to make the Tier System more consistent and clear. | ||
| − | Should containers ever be considered part of the raw materials, such as when a certain container is absolutely necessary? Or should containers always be left out of Tier considerations? IMO, I feel the latter makes much more sense. First, containers usually store stacks of multiple items, so they don't count much toward the labor cost producing 1 unit of a finished good. Secondly, containers are reusable (with the exception of | + | Should containers ever be considered part of the raw materials, such as when a certain container is absolutely necessary? Or should containers always be left out of Tier considerations? IMO, I feel the latter makes much more sense. First, containers usually store stacks of multiple items, so they don't count much toward the labor cost producing 1 unit of a finished good. Secondly, containers are reusable (with the exception of [[trading]] products such as liquids or powders to caravans that ''must'' be sold in a container). Since containers are reusable, the dwarf labor and time to make them is inconsequential compared with the actual goods. As long as the goods are consumed or used in the fort, containers are a one-time investment. |
| − | If containers were always considered, then the Tiers of materials used and goods produced would have to be greatly expanded, making it vastly more complicated. For instance, bags produced from silk cloth should be Tier 2 because they only require a Tier 1 material. (Silk cloth comes from silk thread, which is produced automatically by a dwarf with the gather web labor. The latter does not require a workshop, so it's Tier 0.) But bags produced with Rope reed thread, Pig tail thread, or Yarn (from Wool) require more processing, so such bags are Tier 3. And anything stored in them would be Tier 4. Similarly, Alcohol can be stored in wood barrels (Tier 1), metal barrels (Tier 2), or a metal | + | If containers were always considered, then the Tiers of materials used and goods produced would have to be greatly expanded, making it vastly more complicated. For instance, bags produced from silk cloth should be Tier 2 because they only require a Tier 1 material. (Silk cloth comes from silk thread, which is produced automatically by a dwarf with the gather web labor. The latter does not require a workshop, so it's Tier 0.) But bags produced with Rope reed thread, Pig tail thread, or Yarn (from Wool) require more processing, so such bags are Tier 3. And anything stored in them would be Tier 4. Similarly, Alcohol can be stored in wood barrels (Tier 1), metal barrels (Tier 2), or a metal [[metal#Alloys_2|alloy]] barrel (Tier 3). And it can be stored in [[large pot|glazed large pots]] (Tier 2). This makes alcohol fit either Tier 2, Tier 3, or Tier 4, depending on the type and materials of the container. Then, when you try to determine the Tiers of workshops further down which use liquids or powders as ingredients, the complications get compounded. --[[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]] 09:15, 20 June 2011 (UTC) |
:Containers required by processes should be considered, but not as part of the tiering. Would it be possible to consider just the raw material flow, with notes aside for resources that don't get used up, such as buckets, barrels and bags? Since containers aren't 'consumed', and made from such variety of materials, I don't feel it -should- be used to count tiers, rather, counting by how many steps from raw material the processes the workshop have is. What I'm unsure about is if just the processes itself should be regarded, or the highest-tier process the workshop have as is on the current list? [[User:AutomataKittay|AutomataKittay]] 10:13, 20 June 2011 (UTC) | :Containers required by processes should be considered, but not as part of the tiering. Would it be possible to consider just the raw material flow, with notes aside for resources that don't get used up, such as buckets, barrels and bags? Since containers aren't 'consumed', and made from such variety of materials, I don't feel it -should- be used to count tiers, rather, counting by how many steps from raw material the processes the workshop have is. What I'm unsure about is if just the processes itself should be regarded, or the highest-tier process the workshop have as is on the current list? [[User:AutomataKittay|AutomataKittay]] 10:13, 20 June 2011 (UTC) | ||
:I agree, containers should not count in tiering. But I have another issue regarding the whole tier classification system. The mechanic's shop uses rock (tier 0) for the vast majority of its input, but when making a traction bench, it uses a table (tier 1 or higher, depending on the material) and a rope (tier 3 or higher). So is it tier 1 or tier 4? I'd say tier 1, since traction benches aren't its major output. But you can see the problem. The jeweler's shop uses level 0 rough gems for cutting, but level 1 cut gems and level 1+ items for encrusting, is it tier 1 or 2?. Many shops use inputs from different tiers for different tasks. Do you rate a shop at the tier of the task with the lowest inputs, the task with the highest inputs, or the most common task(s)? BTW, the page currently says the mechanic's shop takes 0-1 items, but rope is tier 3 (or more, depending on dying, decorations, etc.). [[User:Khearn|Khearn]] 23:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC) | :I agree, containers should not count in tiering. But I have another issue regarding the whole tier classification system. The mechanic's shop uses rock (tier 0) for the vast majority of its input, but when making a traction bench, it uses a table (tier 1 or higher, depending on the material) and a rope (tier 3 or higher). So is it tier 1 or tier 4? I'd say tier 1, since traction benches aren't its major output. But you can see the problem. The jeweler's shop uses level 0 rough gems for cutting, but level 1 cut gems and level 1+ items for encrusting, is it tier 1 or 2?. Many shops use inputs from different tiers for different tasks. Do you rate a shop at the tier of the task with the lowest inputs, the task with the highest inputs, or the most common task(s)? BTW, the page currently says the mechanic's shop takes 0-1 items, but rope is tier 3 (or more, depending on dying, decorations, etc.). [[User:Khearn|Khearn]] 23:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC) | ||
| Line 23: | Line 23: | ||
We should confirm that some of that information still is valid and add it to the current page if necessary. [[Special:Contributions/74.98.229.82|74.98.229.82]] 12:51, 17 July 2011 (UTC) | We should confirm that some of that information still is valid and add it to the current page if necessary. [[Special:Contributions/74.98.229.82|74.98.229.82]] 12:51, 17 July 2011 (UTC) | ||
:"You can use workshop profiles to restrict the use of individual workshops to named dwarves, or to dwarves with specified minimum and maximum levels of skill. " I'm quoting from the article here, to answer your question; multiple dwarves can use a workshop at its default setting (although not at the same time!), but if you modify the profile of a workshop, you can make it so that only single dwarves use it. See profile, or manager. In regards to the the missing information that dwarves will haul material to a workshop for their tasks-- well, they'll always do it. I could imagine that that might be useful information for somebody, but I think the right place to put it is in "hauling," and I'm going to go there next :) Post script: Hey, it's already on that page. Cool. [[Special:Contributions/98.203.173.56|98.203.173.56]] 08:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC) | :"You can use workshop profiles to restrict the use of individual workshops to named dwarves, or to dwarves with specified minimum and maximum levels of skill. " I'm quoting from the article here, to answer your question; multiple dwarves can use a workshop at its default setting (although not at the same time!), but if you modify the profile of a workshop, you can make it so that only single dwarves use it. See profile, or manager. In regards to the the missing information that dwarves will haul material to a workshop for their tasks-- well, they'll always do it. I could imagine that that might be useful information for somebody, but I think the right place to put it is in "hauling," and I'm going to go there next :) Post script: Hey, it's already on that page. Cool. [[Special:Contributions/98.203.173.56|98.203.173.56]] 08:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC) | ||
| + | |||
| + | == List/ Chart of workshops showing blocking? == | ||
| + | |||
| + | I don't know if this has been discussed, but it would be handy to have a single page that lists all of the workshops that '''also''' shows the 'blocking' symbols you see on the right margin of individual shop listings, the light green X for passable and the dark green for blocking sections. I was in the middle of working out a workshop wing in my fortress going off of the 'tier' info mentioned on this page. | ||
| + | |||
| + | Would something like that be acceptable? On this page or a new page? It would need to cover furnaces, the trading post, any such structure that is a single unit with open and blocking sections. I can make up the page on my own, and simply not have it on the wiki. But I would think someone else would have use for a handy lookup chart of that nature. :) [[User:Romaq|Romaq]] 13:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | ||
Latest revision as of 13:32, 20 December 2011
Flowchart[edit]
Please list what's missing from the flowchart, rather than simply declaring it incomplete. That way we have a chance of fixing it. I'm leaving this note here because the tag was added on this page. Rep 17:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Concepts and Organization[edit]
There is a lot of information on this page, mostly in list form. I'd like to condense the lists into more generalized concepts, useful forms, or transfer some of the information to the specific workshop pages themselves. Any suggestions are welcome! I'm currently working on updating the individual workshop pages, but I have a feeling there is a better way to list the workshops within each tier (alphabetically, the order listed in-game, perhaps in some sub-category?). Even the products could use similar attention. -- DN 17:49 1 March 2011 (GMT)
Yes, there is a lot of info. And it really needs to be corrected, updated and reformatted. But I'm opposed to condensing it down to generalizations. That would greatly diminish its usefulness. Despite its shortcomings, I find the Tier System handy to see at a glance how far removed end products are from the materials used. Using this to make comparisons allows me to judge the time and labor cost to produce goods and make decisions based on efficiency.
As for organizing the Tier System better, I have a question: Should containers be taken into consideration to determine the Tier? Currently, a few workshops (Still, Quern, and Millstone) are listed to consider containers as part of the materials used and, as a result, the goods produced are classified much higher in the Tier than they would otherwise. But most workshops do not do this. I feel a rule should be decided upon to make the Tier System more consistent and clear.
Should containers ever be considered part of the raw materials, such as when a certain container is absolutely necessary? Or should containers always be left out of Tier considerations? IMO, I feel the latter makes much more sense. First, containers usually store stacks of multiple items, so they don't count much toward the labor cost producing 1 unit of a finished good. Secondly, containers are reusable (with the exception of trading products such as liquids or powders to caravans that must be sold in a container). Since containers are reusable, the dwarf labor and time to make them is inconsequential compared with the actual goods. As long as the goods are consumed or used in the fort, containers are a one-time investment.
If containers were always considered, then the Tiers of materials used and goods produced would have to be greatly expanded, making it vastly more complicated. For instance, bags produced from silk cloth should be Tier 2 because they only require a Tier 1 material. (Silk cloth comes from silk thread, which is produced automatically by a dwarf with the gather web labor. The latter does not require a workshop, so it's Tier 0.) But bags produced with Rope reed thread, Pig tail thread, or Yarn (from Wool) require more processing, so such bags are Tier 3. And anything stored in them would be Tier 4. Similarly, Alcohol can be stored in wood barrels (Tier 1), metal barrels (Tier 2), or a metal alloy barrel (Tier 3). And it can be stored in glazed large pots (Tier 2). This makes alcohol fit either Tier 2, Tier 3, or Tier 4, depending on the type and materials of the container. Then, when you try to determine the Tiers of workshops further down which use liquids or powders as ingredients, the complications get compounded. --Thundercraft 09:15, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Containers required by processes should be considered, but not as part of the tiering. Would it be possible to consider just the raw material flow, with notes aside for resources that don't get used up, such as buckets, barrels and bags? Since containers aren't 'consumed', and made from such variety of materials, I don't feel it -should- be used to count tiers, rather, counting by how many steps from raw material the processes the workshop have is. What I'm unsure about is if just the processes itself should be regarded, or the highest-tier process the workshop have as is on the current list? AutomataKittay 10:13, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, containers should not count in tiering. But I have another issue regarding the whole tier classification system. The mechanic's shop uses rock (tier 0) for the vast majority of its input, but when making a traction bench, it uses a table (tier 1 or higher, depending on the material) and a rope (tier 3 or higher). So is it tier 1 or tier 4? I'd say tier 1, since traction benches aren't its major output. But you can see the problem. The jeweler's shop uses level 0 rough gems for cutting, but level 1 cut gems and level 1+ items for encrusting, is it tier 1 or 2?. Many shops use inputs from different tiers for different tasks. Do you rate a shop at the tier of the task with the lowest inputs, the task with the highest inputs, or the most common task(s)? BTW, the page currently says the mechanic's shop takes 0-1 items, but rope is tier 3 (or more, depending on dying, decorations, etc.). Khearn 23:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Claification needed in some areas[edit]
Specifically, I need to know whether more than one dwarf can use a workshop or not. In addition, previous versions of the page are much more detailed in their uses section, including the information not given here that a dwarf will haul material to a workshop for their task, regardless of haul settings. We should confirm that some of that information still is valid and add it to the current page if necessary. 74.98.229.82 12:51, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- "You can use workshop profiles to restrict the use of individual workshops to named dwarves, or to dwarves with specified minimum and maximum levels of skill. " I'm quoting from the article here, to answer your question; multiple dwarves can use a workshop at its default setting (although not at the same time!), but if you modify the profile of a workshop, you can make it so that only single dwarves use it. See profile, or manager. In regards to the the missing information that dwarves will haul material to a workshop for their tasks-- well, they'll always do it. I could imagine that that might be useful information for somebody, but I think the right place to put it is in "hauling," and I'm going to go there next :) Post script: Hey, it's already on that page. Cool. 98.203.173.56 08:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
List/ Chart of workshops showing blocking?[edit]
I don't know if this has been discussed, but it would be handy to have a single page that lists all of the workshops that also shows the 'blocking' symbols you see on the right margin of individual shop listings, the light green X for passable and the dark green for blocking sections. I was in the middle of working out a workshop wing in my fortress going off of the 'tier' info mentioned on this page.
Would something like that be acceptable? On this page or a new page? It would need to cover furnaces, the trading post, any such structure that is a single unit with open and blocking sections. I can make up the page on my own, and simply not have it on the wiki. But I would think someone else would have use for a handy lookup chart of that nature. :) Romaq 13:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)