40d Talk:How to safely start fortress mode

Correctness

There is no "correct" way to start fortress mode except from not picking Adventure Mode or Legends or Create New World on the main menu screen. It's entirely proper to embark with no skills and absolutely no supplies and watch your seven dwarves go crazy and die in the terrifying glacier. --Rkyeun 12:03, 18 November 2008 (EST)

If you'd like to change the name, leave a request with the sysop or something. This conversation has been done 10 times over already and it never ends in anything useful. --ThunderClaw 12:07, 18 November 2008 (EST)

I dunno, he might be on to something there. This could be a guide on how to start the game, step by step, without pressing the wrong buttons or accidentally defenestrating either your computer or yourself! --Navian 13:22, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Farm Size

Farm size: 10x10 of plump helmets without fertilizing will feed 500 dwarves. A 5x5 field WITH fertilizing will feed about 500 dwarves. Do the math. (Rough estimates. Untested.) -Yanlin

Is this with or without boozecooking? Random832 23:12, 27 October 2008 (EDT)

Reformatting this page

This page breaks from the style used on the rest of the wiki -- it's a dump of opinions and suggestions instead of a collaborative, well-organized article. The problem with this is evident in how people are just arguing with each other on the page (that's what talk pages are for) instead of putting their heads together to offer readers streamlined, practical advice.

Can we do some discussion here of what its general advice and structure should be, then rewrite it?--Maximus 21:38, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

Having a bunch of different viewpoints in the page is fine to me as long as it doesn't look like a big argument :P --Xonara 01:48, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

I was thinking about this too, but the unfortunate hurdle is that there's no good way to put in a 'generally agreed upon' sort of structure, and there's a lot of strong feelings that run both ways with many things. Perhaps the better way to do this would merely be to take the names out of it. Just put a heading and a couple of equally-bulleted points with the various views, possibly with the dates these views were last updated. A large part of my issue is that most of the advice on the page is clearly from many moons ago (the cats comments being the most noticable). The anvil discussion, for example, could then just be broken down into three bullets, one which suggests crafts, a second which suggests mechanisms, and a third which suggests meals.

A reformat does need to happen, though. This wiki is really shortwinded on useful, coherant gameplay advice (MANY of the Beginners FAQ pages need total rewrites that I'll probably get to sooner rather than later) and I'd really like to see that change. --ThunderClaw 02:09, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

Removing the signatures is definitely the starting point -- it will allow us to treat what's on the page as "our words" instead of "my words".

I don't think "general agreement" is out of reach -- for any subject, there will be obviously bad advice, obviously good advice, and stuff that will largely depend on how you like to play the game. Our current dispute over trade goods is like that: crafts, mechanisms, meals, and clothes can all be effective trade goods; we can list their respective advantages and disadvantages and leave it for the player to decide what approach he or she wants to take. We just need to avoid the "One True Approach" mentality, except where everyone agrees that a given idea is Very Good or Very Bad.

While we're at it, the page title needs to be changed -- though we can do that after it becomes clear what direction the rewrite is taking it in.--Maximus 03:38, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

I'll give the page a once-over tomorrow and give my initial thoughts on what should be changed then.--Maximus 03:42, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

It shouldn't take too long. Click Edit, hit Ctrl-A, and type {{Del}}. Profit. --Juckto 04:40, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

Reformat is done. Someone else can deal with the nomenclature. --ThunderClaw 13:14, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

You did an excellent job with the rewrite. I made various changes and expansions, and there's other stuff I want to add over the next several days.--Maximus 04:04, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

I really think that a better name for this page would be "General Advice," since that's all it really is, and "Correctly" starting a fortress is mostly a matter of opinion and we're trying to make the page look less opinionated. The page could be very helpful and I think that once it's worked on a bit it could go on the main page. --Xonara 21:00, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

Well, "general advice" is a little too general. At this point, I want to see what kind of changes we make to other related pages, such as your first fortress. Once we define the role of each better, it should be clear what this page should be named.--Maximus 04:04, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Lies

Don't bring any beasts of burden. You will start with a breeding pair of them for free

That's a lie. You can have different animals at start

Turning off restrictions on economic stone will allow you to make a metal ANYTHING from that ore stone

Lies again. It's not metal, it's made of ore. Not Iron statue, but Limonite statue, etc. (You still gain in wealth though)

Siege engines the only safe way to deal with the biggest threats you will face, like megabeasts and goblins riding beak dogs as cavalry.

Oh, yeah? ONLY?

Ask for pearlash and rock crystal to make crystal glass.

crystal glass requires RAW rock crystal, that can't be imported

Go ahead and edit the page as you like... There does appear to be a consensus that it needs improvement! --Navian 12:25, 21 November 2008 (EST)

Thoughts on Revising this Page

Currently this and similar pages seem deadset on giving very specific advice, which is problematic when people don't agree on the nature of that advice. Why don't we do a basic analysis of the different considerations involved in putting together a successful fortress and maximizing your dwarves, and leave specific build advice as a postscript and proof of concept/example instead of the mainthrust of the article?

Ie, make the first paragraph something like this:
When establishing a new fortress there are certain difficulties that must be overcome. All fortresses will need to feed their dwarves, handle the influx of migrants, build a secure space to live and work, keep their dwarves happy, and generate trade goods for the merchant caravans. Beyond satisfying these basic needs, dwarves will want to be leveled in experience, both in terms of physical abilities and at particular tasks, and may gain free experience from successfully completing strange mood requests. What follows is a guide to building a fortress that not only survives, but thrives.

Follow this up with paragraphs on options for accomplishing the above basic goals, and a paragraph on the relative value of various skills and how easy it is to level them respectively. Only then should we start busting out examples. Advice should also tend to be less absolute than it currently is (I've started plenty of successful fortresses without dogs, for example).

--Squirrelloid 05:05, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Yeah, I agree with that approach. Your post over at talk:starting builds got me thinking along those lines. Although it's harder than just saying "do this" ;-) .

In truth, as long as you have a means to feed your dwarves and a handful of things to keep them happy, any fortress will work. (Sooner or later you usually need some defensive measures as well.) That's that's one of the first things we should point out.

But for me, and I think a lot of other players, much of the fun is in figuring out how to get your dwarves to do lots of stuff very effectively. We actually give pretty good advice on that -- we just make too many assumptions about what the specific stuff will be. This is not surprising given the page's origin ("How to correctly start fortress mode"? Ugh.), though it was improved dramatically by ThunderClaw and others. But it could be improved further, as could all of our "basic advice" pages.

Right now I'm thinking through a rewrite of starting builds in response to your post there a few days ago. You made some assumptions as well, but also you challenged me to think beyond the assumptions I had been making. Bit by bit I think we can pull everything together better.--Maximus 19:12, 22 November 2008 (EST)