User:Albedo

Back after a 5+ year hiatus - last edit late May of '10. Just catching up to new version atm - we'll see. Albedo (talk) 16:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

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I just added my name to the list for Asst. Admin for this site - see here.

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Beast Whips

BeastWhips game diary moved to here.

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Plant Article

There was a recent thread titled "seeds" that was hoping to get "world gen seeds" - but [s]it's now[/s] it was slipping toward page 3, before I accidentally bumped it. ::)

Anyway, these were the 2 responses...

I thought you meant strawberry seeds or something. Now I have nothing to contribute :(

Yeah, I was hoping to learn something new about seeds, but alas...

mmmm... "seeds"... indeed... well, deep on page 2 doesn't look like "world seeds" is taking off... ok, by request of 2 posters, some thoughts on plant seeds and related topics, targeted at a variety of game experience levels. Don't know how much "new" this will be, but I was struck by a strange mood...

First, let's talk about the planter, your Grower. Plant stack size is based on the Grower doing the planting, not the harvester. A better Grower means fewer seeds are needed to produce the same number of plants, and your farm plots can be smaller, saving irrigated space and keeping farmplots closer to your kitchens/stills/etc (which should all be in the same area, and near the Dining Hall - but we digress.)

With the exception of Quarry Bushes (which pad out prepared meals nicely, but usually a food industry is not up to that level in the first couple seasons), plants are mostly for booze, at least to start. [i](Later, flours and such - but not at first.)[/i] You can trade, hunt or breed for all the food you need, but the 1st caravan won't bring enough booze, and you shouldn't rely on them later. Booze is the lubricant of a Fortress, and without it will, quite literally, come to a grinding halt. Plants give you your booze, and Growers give you your plants.

If you count all the tasks, from planting to drinking, Grower is THE single most important skill in DF for multiplying its effect on the labour force. A Legendary grower saves something like 30 tasks for each stack of plants that are brewed. Yes, thirty per stack - it's just absurd. (See the wiki on grower for a detailed breakdown.)

By embarking with a proficient Grower and with only 3 of each UG* seed type, you will have more seeds than you need for planting later seasons - the multiplier is huge and the demand low. (If you collect them all and destroy none, 3 seeds -> ~8+ next season -> 20+ and you're set unless your plots are larger than that, which is a bit over-enthusiastic unless you only have 1 or 2 crops.)

(* UnderGround, vs. AG, above ground. You can only buy UG plants and seeds at embark. There are 4 UG booze plants (all are also edible, some can be processed into other food-stuffs), plus Quarry Bushes, plus the non-edible Dimple Cups.)

While I cannot emphasize how strongly I, personally, recommend starting with a Proficient Grower, it is also true that an unskilled Grower, if set to "Only Farmers Harvest" and with only 25 tiles or so of crops, will train to Proficient easily within a year. But a Proficient will be Legendary in just over a year, and then you're unstoppable. (They'll be Professional or so by the time your first migrants are expected to show, and a single unskilled apprentice back-up Grower (to help w/ harvests) won't crush the production during planting.)

On the flip side, if using unskilled growers, a 1:1 production of seed:plant seem to be the standard, and so replanting at the same scale requires that 100% of the plants are either eaten or brewed with no seeds eaten - no cooking, no eating seeds, no bad luck (harvests of "stack = 0"), or it's a losing proposition. (Smaller plots mean "bad luck" is easier to come across!)

Splitting the diff and putting only ~2-4 ranks into Grower at embark wouldn't be a dealbreaker by any means - ample to avoid "bad luck", and you'll get a few larger stacks for brewing/cooking. (Some micromanagement is necessary to save the larger stacks for processing and only let the smaller ones be eaten raw.)

For newer players, be aware - eating plants leaves seeds, brewing plants leaves seeds, but [u]cooking plants destroys seeds[/u]. This can be controlled in the z-kitchen menu. ((I'll also presume to draw your attention to the fact that cooking seeds also destroys seeds - as does eating seeds. This is usually only a dealbreaker for early fortresses, but it does happen. Forbid some if you want to be paranoid.)

(And while my rambling refers mainly to food-plants, dye-plants work similarly. They are separate from plot-size discussions, as they feed your cloth industry ([u]if[/u] you have one), not your dwarves.)

So, making seeds into more seeds is the job of a Grower, and now we all understand the trade-offs there.

One seed can produce a single stack size of anywhere from 0-5, with larger stacks being reliably produced only by higher skilled Growers. (Also larger if fertilized.)

So, you don't need to start w/ a lot of seeds if you have a Proficient grower. 1 seed will produce a stack of maybe 2-4, on average, so let's call it 2.5 to be on the safe side. At x5 for booze production, that stack will on average become 12.5 booze. That means that 3 seeds should become [i]at least[/i] 7 plants or 35+ booze, which is more than enough to for 8 thirsty dwarfs for a season. That times your 4 different UG plants [i](Pig Tail = ale, D'n Wheat = beer, Sweet Pods = rum, Plump Helmets = wine)[/i] is... well, more than enough. (4x35 = 140 booze/season, which would keep 35 dwarves/season lubricated, plus more from trading.) And that's only 3 seeds for each of 4 crops, with extremely conservative estimates for stack production.

So, starting with 3 seeds each for your 7 dwarfs is ample, even if you're going to let that grow as the fortress does. (If you can get your crops in before the end of the 1st Spring, you're in good shape; before end of 1st Summer can be a bit tight if you have a large migrant wave early.)

Some players do fine with a single 5x5 plot of Plump Helmets* [i](at least for up to 60-100 dwarves, depending on Grower, fertilization, other food sources and Trade)[/i], but dwarves like a variety of booze. Some combination of UG & AG plots that equal around 25-30 tiles (don't count non-food plants) is adequate unless they're going to be trade exports (or you lose your Proficient Grower). That means 2x2 of each is too big if you have a lot of AG crops; 1x3 seems about right w/ your favorites at 2x2, and [i]possibly[/i] some few larger (sun berries, PH's, quarry bushes?). A strip of adjacent plots, w/ some 1x3 sticking out and seed stockpiles placed in the indents for the 2x2 plots works well for me.

(* If you're going with only 1 or 2 crops, spend the 1 dwarfbuck at the start for 1 seed and a free bag for the other crops. But you still really don't need much more than 3 seeds each, as they'll multiply quickly enough, depending on your use of raw plants, and you should be bringing about 60 total booze to last until the 1st caravan, unless you have a personal plan that calls for another approach.)

So, 1x3 or 2x2 each seems a good size for most crops to start, unless you're going to use plant products as trade exports. (Same w/ UG size plots.) 25 tiles total of [u]food[/u]-plant production is "common wisdom". (Don't count plants that produce only dye/etc.)

Sample layout for 5 edible crops w/ 4 seed stockpiles (1 doubled up):

1 1 2 3 4 5 5

1 1 2 3 4 5 5

s s 2 3 4 s s

(At a total footprint of 3x7, this is only 17 tiles of food production, and so while adequate for your 1st 7 this needs either some expanding or some AG food crops to back it up before your fortress grows too big.)

Note that walking on seeds/farm plots/crops doesn't seem to hurt them, which is not true of wild plants or saplings. Food does not take "wear".

Alternately, a larger number of 1x2 plots lets you easily tweak the total output if one plant type is needed more or less, and easily add just a little more here or there if something is weak. While this may seem like a hassle at first, the flexibility is huge later in the game, rather than have to tear down a farmplot and/or build a new one, which may require new irrigation.

Seeds are stored in bags - 100/bag max (so getting 6 free bags at embark is a good move, but you won't get any more than that). And then the bags will be set into barrels. If your settings are on "mix food" (<o, m>), then 1 barrel can hold all you need - but you can easily customize your food stockpiles to have no barrels at all. I like to set 1-tile large stockpiles customized to accept only that one seed adjacent to the plots they will serve - makes planting (and visually checking your seed supply) too easy. (While the bags might get wear from being walked on, the seeds won't suffer - put them in hallways if you have to, and/or use <d, o> to set Restricted traffic on them.)

I like to send a quick, large wave of unskilled Plant Gathering out early in the game, 1st Spring or Summer (once everything is nearly underground but before real trouble shows up), to get a nice selection of AG plants, and then brew those up (or forbid all other foods and let them get eaten first) to get the seeds asap for a Summer planting.

Cooking with seeds is a great way to get rid of them in later game as they start to reach triple digits each, but turn off all "cook" orders early on (again, in the z-kitchen menu). This is critical with newly acquired plants/seeds (from Plant Gathering or Trade), as otherwise your Cook might decide a SunBerry Seed Roast is just the ticket. Oh noes.

There. I've probably mispoken somewhere, so I trust the veterans will come along and rub my nose in it and correct me. And/or suggest valid alternatives, and invited to do so - a complete discussion was my goal.

I also have made some strong personal recommendations that are just that - my personal opinion, no apologies. There are many ways to approach DF, and to have fun (in all its forms) - this is just one solid way to get there from here.