Editing 40d Talk:Refuse stockpile

==Refuse Stockpile vs. Dumping Zone==
What are the advantages of using a refuse stockpile over a [[Zone#Garbage_Dump|dump zone]]? That might not be very clear to new players.--[[User:Xazak|Xazak]] 19:55, 3 November 2007 (EDT)
:Considering myself a new player, the usefulness/function of a dump zone is not clear to me, yes. For now, after some experimentation, i go with not having a dump zone. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 23:17, 15 February 2008 (EST)
::dump zone lets you drop a lot of whatever on 1 square, such as an entire floors worth of stone. you do, however, have to designate each individual thing to be dumped. refuse stockpile only takes trash, but does so automaticaly -[[User:Chariot|Chariot]] 03:44, 16 February 2008 (EST)

:::I've finally realized that the refuse stockpile is strictly for keeping items that your dwarfs might like to use for their crafts: corpses for the butcher, skins for leatherworking, bones and shells for crafting.  So lately I've separated out the crappy items from the stockpile by designating them for dumping into a {{DFtext|Light |#ff0}}{{DFtext|Above Ground|#0f0}} dump zone.  Now, the only items I keep in my refuse stockpiles are turtle shells (though they aren't worth much, keeping a few are useful for fey moods) and anything with a mod value of more than 1.  The Fish bones, goblin/kobold bones -- which used to take up so much space and eventually make it impossible for my dwarfs to keep the fortress clean -- all get designated for dumping to a dump zone now.
:::The only downside to this is that I've been forced to find all the worthless items (such as harpy, goblin, human, or elf bones) in a refuse stockpile by using 'k' and designating them to a dump zone one by one.  I've tried to change the settings of the refuse stockpiles to only accept items of [[value]], but the settings are a pain to go through since it lists '''every''' [[creature]] that could possibly be hauled there.[[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 14:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

:No.  Not "strictly".  (And refuse ''stockpiles'' don't need items to be marked to be "dumped" - your post is confusing.)  A refuse stockpile has 3 subsections, 2 of which are almost identical - there are Item Types, and Corpses and Body Parts. Here's how I use them...

:One or more stockpiles for "remains" allow dwarfs w/ Refuse Hauling to automatically "take out the trash" - grab up all those rat and large cockroach remains, anything the cat kills, and any wilted plants - those go into the rubbish heap, either in a miasma-lock or outside.  You can have more than one of these.

:A refuse stockpile set to only accept certain corpses and parts are perfect for near butcher shops - at least for those creatures that are butcherable.  For non-butcherable creature corpses & parts (not a big list - harpies, goblins, humans, elves), a miasma-proof rotting room near your bone-carver is a great use.  Only worry about what's showing up on your map - if you don't have gremlins or ratmen, don't worry about them.  (Delete non-bone creatures like slugmen/snailmen/grimelings in both - waste of time collecting them at all.)  Add in "bones and skulls" so stuff doesn't get moved - unless your rotting room is distant from your bone carver, or if you have more bones than room in that stockpile - then split them up into a rotting room, and a bone/skull storage area (above ground they'll disappear - your call).  Another for raw skins near your tanner is a good plan, but sharing the butcherable corpse locker works well too - they're often worked before they can get hauled. 

:A garbage ''zone'' is for specific dumping projects - you have a bunch of economic rock you want moved to near your mason's shop, or it's time to move just your stacks of 5 plump helmets to near your still, items you manually, specifically and selectively mark for "dumping".  Typically, ''only one'' garbage zone is {{k|a}}ctive at a time, and then a new one when a different target item needs to be shuffled to that new spot (or the dumped items might end up across the fortress in a different active garbage zone!)  If you only have 1 "active" zone at a time, it's not hard to keep track of.  And meanwhile the refuse ''stockpiles'' are on auto 24/7.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

::Ok, I tried to clarify my earlier post to make it clearer.  I still think ''strictly'' was the right word though.  Many newbs will read the starting guides and get the mistaken impression that refuse stockpiles are for unwanted items; while in fact, they are where you want your [[value|valuable]] items nearby to your craft shops.  Everything else which has no MODVALUE in the raws should just be designated for dumping so that way it will eventually disappear from the stocks and not overwhelm the refuse stockpiles.   

::Fish bones are a great example of this.  Usually as my fortress matures, I'll eventually end up with five or six fisherdwarfs hauling in tons of fish which eventually are eaten and result in my refuse stockpiles getting flooded with worthless fish bones (since fish are considered "vermin" their bones have no [[value]].)  Since I'd rather my bone carvers use the giant or large creature bones that I found in the nearby chasm, I designate the fish bones for dumping so that way my bonecarvers will only use the valuable bones.[[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 02:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Look - first, don't edit a discussion - it throws everything that comes after off. If you didn't say what you mean, then just post and correct, not edit. <br />Anyway, "strictly" means "exclusively", as in "no exceptions" - what about "remains"? That is the first use of a refuse stockpile, a place for dwarves to dump rats and roaches.  Last I checked, those are not "valuable", and so there goes your "strictly". More examples do not refute this exception. To not use one requires a visual scan for dead vermin, and then they get dumped in whatever current dump zone you have active. Other than that, you're preaching to the choir.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 04:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: Well, normally I would agree with you that discussions should be edited, but since you've invited the world at large to see our discussion by saying "(For a longer discussion on this, see Talk page: Refuse Stockpile vs. Dumping Zone)" on the main page, I thought that clarification was necessary to avoid confusing the masses that will come here.  Anyway, you're right, I concede your point since I forgot that the cats are always moving remains of vermin to stockpiles and not to dumping zones.  This does raise a separate question perhaps you can answer that I posted below.[[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 13:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::Discussions are not to be back-edited, confusing readers or even misrepresenting answers. Adding is of course always fine. My always too few, quite useful practice bone bolts are offended you call them worthless, btw. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 19:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Zactly. I understand 31B's intentions, but this is not an "article", even if it expands on a point touched on therein.  This doesn't get updated when a version changes, nor edited for sprelling, nor "corrected" - mistaken points are discussed, or compromises agreed upon, that's the process.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::ok ok fine! Next time I want to clarify a post in a discussion page I use strikethroughs instead.  Anyway, what I was trying to say from the very beginning: For a long time I mistakenly thought that the refuse stockpiles were for keeping your fortress clean.  So it was only recently I realized a variety of different ways of keeping them from overflowing and thus helping to keep miasma from overwhelming my fortress.  I just thought it would be handy to mention that since I'm sure other noobs had the same misconception.   I'll leave it up to you guys to fix the main page on this issue if you so please.[[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 01:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

==Other Stockpile comments/questions==
So uh, how do you make a refuse stockpile?  What keys in what order?  I can't get it to work and I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong or if the Dwarfs are being naughty.  (Wow!  Thanks...I'm not sure how I missed that.  :) 

press p then r , then enter to start marking the area, move cursor, press enter again, refuse stockpile appears. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 18:45, 2 March 2008 (EST)

Do Shells and bones create miasma? If I create a custom indoor stockpile for them,do I need the airlock system?  Currently I only keep fresh hides in a custom stock pile inside a room that holds the butcher and tanner --[[User:Mey|Mey]] 17:03, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

:Shells and bones do not generate miasma when indoors.  Decaying matter that generates shells and bones will, of course. --[[User:Marble Dice|Marble Dice]] 18:07, 29 April 2008 (EDT)


 ''following is the discussion from [[refuse]], article has been merged with this one''


==chasm==
Is it possible to use a bottomless chasme as a refuse pit?[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 08:22, 8 January 2008 (EST)
:Quite possible, and is the intended use for garbage dump zones, as evidenced by the {{k|o}}->{{k|r}} menu that has "Chasm xxx" as opposed to "Dump xxx" or somesuch.  Just don't forget that you can't recover anything that gets tossed in there, (i.e. excess stone that you're simply moving out of the way, as opposed to say rotten food or other 'never useful' items.) --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 20:26, 8 January 2008 (EST)

==Refuse Hauling==

Does anyone have any tips on refuse hauling? I have a refuse pit, quite close to my food stockpile but separated by doors. However, the dwarves will often leave the corpses of vermin lying around my food stockpile, generating [[miasma]] in the food stockpile, when I'd far rather they just cleaned up more quickly. Sometimes it helps to mark the vermin corpses for [[dump]]ing, but I'm not patrolling the food stockpile six times a season to look for corpses! Is there any way to make the dwarves prioritise [[cleaning]] higher? --[[User:AlexChurchill|AlexChurchill]] 05:55, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

:You could always give the cleaning labor to some peasants. You could have the entire floor as a retractable bridge, so you could dump all the rubbish below. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 07:25, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

::AFAIK, the cleaning labor causes dwarves to clean up mud, blood, and broken bolts. Refuse hauling makes them haul vermin corpses. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 08:55, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

:Make a dwarf focus on refuse hauling, if nothing else works. [[User:Tardface|Tardface]] 22:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

==Miasma and Location==
I've been working on a glass fortress and my refuse stockpile is {{DFtext|Inside |#808000}}{{DFtext|Light |#ff0}}{{DFtext|Above Ground|#0f0}}; I have yet to see it emit miasma once even with a booming meat industry. Perhaps it isn't the Inside/Outside flag but the Light/Dark flag that determines if miasma is emitted? Could also be the Above Ground/Subterranean flag, doesn't matter which as you'll never get {{DFtext|Inside |#808000}}{{DFtext|Light |#ff0}}{{DFtext|Subterranean|#808080}}. --[[User:Elvang|Elvang]] 12:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

:Perhaps, but if that's the case, you might also be losing bones and any other refuse in there to the Seasonal Cleanup process. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 20:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

::I was going to mention disappearing bones (butchered 23 camels but only a single stack of [10] Camel Bones in stockpile, no bonecarving done yet) but the roof over the stockpile that accepts shells/bones/skulls wasn't exactly finished at the time, so I'm waiting a few years of game time and keeping track of my stocks. <br /><br /> EDIT: Over the course of 3 months my skull stockpile dwindled down from 16 to 6 and bones from 87 to 55. And unless a stack of turtle will only produced a single shell when eaten, I'm either losing a lot of shells or my food is affected too or both. Had 276 turtles in Spring 207, now down to 184 and only 16 shells in stockpile, Winter 208. I double checked and cooking is disabled for turtles. --[[User:Elvang|Elvang]] 23:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

==Refuse vs Refuse Stockpile==
I just noticed that we have a Refuse article and a [[Refuse stockpile]] article both about refuse stockpiles. They were pretty much the same before I edited this one (didn't realize there was a Refuse Stockpile article). Should the refuse stockpile article be removed? None of the other [[Stockpile|stockpiles]] listed have their own article (currently links to Refuse stockpile), rather linking to information about the items instead. --[[User:Elvang|Elvang]] 00:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
:I'd ''combine'' them into this one (ensuring that no detail/insight is lost), and make that one a simple redirect.  Also copy/paste that "discussion" page here onto this one, into its own section ("Copied from [[refuse stockpile]]") w/ subsections.  That's also a good place to make a simple comment that you combined the two, under that main heading, w/ your reasons why ("redundancy" jumps to mind.)''Italic text''

== Exploit ==

Re:[[User talk:Birthright]]
::::Your argument is based on the premise that the predictions of future changes are generally accurate. I'm not willing to accept that assumption. I think the guesses are wrong at least as often as they are right.
::::Also, I don't see how assorted change guesses scattered throughout the wiki will do anything to prepare a newbie when a new version comes around. If you think this is a serious problem, we would be better off consolidating known changes into some sort of release notes page when a new version rolls out.
::::Ad hoc mixing of fact and opinion in the same article is poor style, so I think you are correct (even if you didn't intend it that way) that other exploit comments in articles should be removed. They could be replaced with a "see also: [[exploits]]" link at the bottom of the relevant section. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

== Seasonal Cleanup ==
In response to the [http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php?title=Refuse_stockpile&oldid=41281267 last revision], in my experience items disappear after an amount of time and do not wait for season changes. Don't have any proof that the time needed for each item is the same, randomized, or dependent on the creature it came from and if its a skull/bone/shell. Perhaps someone wants to setup a bone, skull, and shell stockpile outside and watch it, counting the days? If I get some time today I'll go ahead and test it. --[[User:Elvang|Elvang]] 21:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:I'll try to do this test this afternoon since it seems like [[User:Elvang|Elvang]] hasn't followed up on this recently.[[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 15:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:I haven't forgotten this, it's just a tad bit tedious to do, so I haven't gotten around to it yet... (Maybe that's why Elvang never came back...) [[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 14:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the term "cleanup" is misleading because it implies that a dwarf with the [[Cleaning]] labor is going to do something.  Would "disappear" or "disapperate" or even "delete" work instead?  The items basically are rotting away into dust, and completely disappear from the stocks&mdash;which is certainly useful to know when you've got a gazillion hoary marmot bones lying about in your refuse stocks and need to make room for those really [[Creature|valuable]] dragon bones. [[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 15:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

== Cats and Vermin Storage ==

What happens to vermin remains?  Once a cat stores the remains in the stockpile, I can't even find it anymore.  Does it disappear immediately or am I missing something?  Can anything be crafted with vermin remains?[[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 13:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
:On a refuse stockpile or off, it rots.  If that's outside, no miasma signals this, so it just "disappears" at some point, same as bones and skulls would (only faster). If your refuse stockpile is inside (or if you dumped" it to a garbage zone), miasma city, same as if it had never been moved.  Remains have no use but to stink up the place (tho' that would be an interesting challenge for a mod').--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 83: / Line 83: @@
 What happens to vermin remains?  Once a cat stores the remains in the stockpile, I can't even find it anymore.  Does it disappear immediately or am I missing something?  Can anything be crafted with vermin remains?[[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 13:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 :On a refuse stockpile or off, it rots.  If that's outside, no miasma signals this, so it just "disappears" at some point, same as bones and skulls would (only faster). If your refuse stockpile is inside (or if you dumped" it to a garbage zone), miasma city, same as if it had never been moved.  Remains have no use but to stink up the place (tho' that would be an interesting challenge for a mod').--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
-== expanded discussion ==
- :''(For a longer discussion on this, see [[Talk:Refuse stockpile#Refuse Stockpile <br />vs. Dump|Talk page: Refuse Stockpile vs. Dumping Zone]])''
- honestly, more headache than insight gain there - add content to the article instead
-The "headache" part is why it should not be on the main page - it's a (muddled) discussion point, not something central to the article (which is a bit long already).  The material is covered there - the conclusions drawn are largely player preference. So, the above discussion is only for those who'' want'' a "longer" discussion, a point by point "how to" (which many won't, but some will) - but since it's there, might as well point to it, neh?--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:42, 29 September 2009 (UTC)