Editing DF2014 Talk:Weapon

Needs updating with the changes to obsidian now having defined sheer/impact values now instead of using stone template defaults.~AJC46



I added some stuff about naming weapons, since from experience, kills are not needed, simply enough time and training with a weapon (perhaps weapons are named after a certain amount of experience is gained while wielding them?)

== Strange mood foreign weapons ==

I removed this text:

:"Dwarves in strange moods are not held to producing native weapons, and in fact often don't, as the number of foreign weapons outnumbers the natives. In the case where they create a valuable and battle-worthy foreign weapon (like a steel two-handed sword), it's worth it to manually go through your dwarves to find someone who can best utilize it, and assign it to him. See the caveats of foreign weapons however, discussed below."

My experience matches the information in [[Strange_mood#Artifacts_created]], namely that weaponsmiths will only create a native weapons. (Bowyers, however, do create foreign weapons.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:49, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

== Combat formulae ==
A detailed exposition on combat formulae was recently added to this article.  I believe its content is largely borrowed from the [[material science]] page.  I've moved this section downward, as it is not need-to-know for most readers, though still interesting and useful for others.  That being said, I would like to consider the idea of separating the content in this article into several pages.  In particular, it might be useful to create pages for:
*New players: "This is a ''weapon''; don't hold it by the pointy end."
*A reference table of useful info: weapon types, what skills they use, etc. (i.e. what currently exists under Native weapons and Foreign weapons)
*A thorough investigation of combat mechanics.
--[[User:Rriegs|Rriegs]] ([[User talk:Rriegs|talk]]) 22:10, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

:Are these formulas even correct? Plugging in the numbers, a Gmaster average sized dwarf with a masterwork steel spear couldn't pierce copper armor. Not even with a heavy stab against a prone opponent.  [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 00:54, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
:For these two to give the same value that exponent would have to be a 5 instead of a 6.

:Melee Weapon Momentum: M = Skill * Size * Str * Vel / (10<sup>6</sup> * (1 + i_Size/(w_density*w_size) )
:Dwarf Melee Momentum: M = 0.6 * Str * Vel / (1 + i_Size/(w_density*w_size) )

:With a 5 instead that gives enough M to pierce copper without either the heavy or prone bonuses.
:But that still gives more than a factor of 10 less than what the chart in  [[Material_science#Attack_Momentum]] says. Did the densities change at some point?
:[[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 02:07, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
:And it also doesn't match what I see in game in arena mode. The numbers from the formulae say candy should not ever pierce divine but even just a quick spear stab will. Same with divine spear on steel AND iron armor. Etc.
:[[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 08:49, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

::Should be fixed now, there was an issue in an intermediate step on the [[material science]] page where the size of a dwarf was substituted as 6*10^5=600000 instead of 6*10^4=60000.
::[[User:Tyzhang|Tyzhang]] ([[User talk:Tyzhang|talk]]) 08:40, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

== Blunt Weapons and Inorganic Enemies ==

The "types of target" section states that blunt weapons work best against inorganic enemies, because they chip away at them bit by bit. I've ran a few arena tests: 10 dwarves in iron armour with steel weapons VS a bronze colossus.

Using Spears, Short Swords or Axes, the dwarves come out on top, usually without casualties, even if they have no combat skills whatsoever. Using Hammers they all die, even if Grandmaster Hammerdwarves. Steel and Silver Hammers did not leave a single dent, Platinum Hammers managed to dent one foot.
If the spears/short swords/axes are iron instead of steel, they don't make a single dent either.

Can anyone verify this? I'll change the section after further testing, as it is highly misleading. [[Special:Contributions/217.6.238.194|217.6.238.194]] 15:14, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

That matches my testing. When testing versus (lightly skilled) Rocs, morningstars behaved as edged (generally well, with spears being best), blunt behaved suicidally badly, with the exception of whips, which laid between the two. As for colossi, steel/adamantine morningstars do boast potential to win, but I saw it as low odds, 3 to 25 with grandmasters (don't recall testing with whip) - and other materials like copper, silver or platinum being utter failures.

That's more about the case of blunt weapons being highly size dependent; as is known from when hammerlords born in fortress didn't manage to get any kills against goblin sieges.

[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 07:07, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

== Melee weapon momentum analysis bug (included from 34.11) ==

The bottom of page in analysis says currently:

"There is a bug with melee weapon momentum that causes certain weapons to swing faster than they should do, giving them greater performance. This bug is based on the weight of the weapon, with weapons weighing just under a whole number getting the greatest benefit. Two major beneficiaries of this weight bug are copper whips and iron or steel picks."

This was written in 34.11: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=v0.34:Weapon&diff=193062&oldid=193061 .

Is the {{Bug|6364}} behind the original edit? And if it is, it probably should get marked as [fixed in 40.05].

[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 06:56, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

:It appears so. I removed the bug text entirely (v0.40.01 - v0.40.04 is a tiny window -- 20 days back in 2014).--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:15, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
@@ Line 63: / Line 63: @@
 :It appears so. I removed the bug text entirely (v0.40.01 - v0.40.04 is a tiny window -- 20 days back in 2014).--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:15, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
-== All metal weapons as outsider ==
-When you start adventure as human outsider, you may add weapons and armor not only made from weapon-grade metals, but all metals, except adamantine and divine. So their properties must be added with note "adventure mode outsider start only".
-:It's very likely that this is a ''bug'' and will be fixed in a future version - I just added a note to [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11239 #11239] about this fact. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 12:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
-== Are there any testing research showing mace more effective than other weapons? ==
-Originally, [[User:Albedo|Albedo]] added in mentions of suggesting mace for every scenario as well as final results.
-However, with the research I'm familiar of, it at most can pulp undead 1 blow faster (due the exponential growth of contact area when the whole part is mangled, if that still applies from .34.11), and I'm not sure it mangles nearly as well as any other weapon.
-(
-[http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162260.msg7322155#msg7322155 From Iron to Steel]
-[http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174389.msg8009603#msg8009603 Some more military xXScienceXx]
-[http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164981.msg7522035#msg7522035 Can Dwarf use dual weapons]
-)
-Based on this, I've replaced most mentions of it as I see appropriate, and I figure more testing is needed on effectiveness of mace vs warhammer versus undead in 44.01+ (due the small undead change). But has there been any research on maces that I missed? It seems odd to see it suggested to be used vs everything.
---[[User:Fleeting Frames|Fleeting Frames]] ([[User talk:Fleeting Frames|talk]]) 00:54, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
-== Maces vs axes vs war hammers vs undead ==
-I did a bit of testing and it appears to me that war hammers are at least as good at killing undead, if not better, as maces, and it's quite clear that they deal more damage against living creatures as well, which can be very important if you want to get mangled corpses instead of mutilated corpses and multiple reanimating body parts like in the case of using axes. War hammers more reliably penetrate the outer layers and crush bones, while maces tend more towards bruising the outer layers and are less likely to crush bones. The difference may be lesser for a stronger dwarf as a war hammer also tends to get stuck in wounds more, which presumably means that the dwarf spends some time trying to pull it out. Overall, maces can kill undead as well, but going by my (limited) testing war hammers are at least as good at killing undead, if not better, and they are significantly better against living enemies, they won't kill as fast as axes but compared to maces they are better at breaking bones, better at stunning, and better at damaging internal organs.
-[[User:Rg|Rg]] ([[User talk:Rg|talk]]) 16:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)