Editing Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Centralized Discussion/Changes to terminology

My own notes were basically already this page, so it seemed reasonable to create it as its own discussion page. Especially as I can foresee this being a recurring, relevant topic, as a result of future updates. The current layout and blurb is just what fell into place, from my own notes on the topic. As with any other wiki page, feel free to update and change it if you think it is warranted. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 20:50, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

==Missing or undefined terminology==
I'm just going to go ahead and seed this page with some topics of discussion that are referenced on the main page, so they can be referenced there, and it doesn't feel like some form of disembodied voice talking. Not to mention, it is pretty arrogant to have some officious notes/suggestions without putting my name to them. I'll sign each section paragraph rather than the end of the edit, to avoid future confusion over comments. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 22:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

==To-do list==

This section is for discussion of additions or changes to the (at the moment utterly undemocratic) [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Centralized_Discussion/Changes_to_terminology#To-do_and_Specifics|To-do and specifics]] list. At the time of writing, I can't think of anything on there that doesn't, objectively, ideally need to be addressed at some point; but that is just my subjective opinion. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 21:53, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

==Pages and references==

===Groups===
Currently, there is no group or groups page, which has bothered me for a while. The [[army|armies]] page gives a good summary of the topic, but I feel quite strongly that most players would be far more likely to by searching and thinking or "group" rather than army, if they were looking up, i.e. refugees, migrants and caravans. Not only that, but (outside of dwarf fortress) an army can be defined as a group, but a group can only rarely be described as an army. And just to belabour the point, AFAIK, these terms have never been officially defined in a statement from Toady. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 21:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

===References to Name===
Should [[Fortress name]] and [[Custom names and symbols]] be added as sections on [[name]] and redirect to there, or should these pages remain separate? I am at a when it comes to naming pages based on hypothetical groupings of these terms. See also [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Centralized_Discussion/Changes_to_terminology#Name_and_Names|Name and Names ]](categories and disambiguation). [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 21:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

==Categories and disambiguation==

===Name and Names===
The bulk of the main page concerns this topic, so I'm just really owning up to the first edit and leaving this section for anyone else to comment in. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 21:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

===Group and Groups===
See also: Pages -> [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Centralized_Discussion/Changes_to_terminology#Groups|Groups]] above. Regardless of the linked section, this seems like a sensible candidate for a category and disambiguation page. I feel certain there are quite a few articles that would make sense to include in this. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 21:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

===Object Objects and Item Items===
I started a [[Talk:Objects|talk]] on the currently empty [[Objects]] page. Objects/Items are another word combination that have quite recently taken on specifically different, but not very explicit, meanings.
<br>Don't forget about the modding concept of [[Modding#Modifying_the_vanilla_objects|Objects]] too, which as far as I can tell, is also missing a clearly defined (at least in specific terminology) description on a wiki page. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 21:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

===Symbol and Symbols===
There is already a [[Symbol]] disambiguation page (In this case I used the singular rather than plural, as [[Symbols]] are a menu category). As I understand it, a disambiguation page is generally meant to be quite concise, but "symbol/symbol" can mean so many things that are relevant to different aspects of the game. I think there might be room for some further explanation, either on that page, or elsewhere. For example: there are at least three explicitly defined game features using the word "symbol"/"symbols".

# Symbols of office
# Group symbols
# Squad symbols

The first two can both have custom names and descriptions, and the last two are related very closely by name, but not at all by feature. You can see why I think this is a bit of a minefield, even with a disambiguation page. More importantly, for most people reading this page, it could obviously get quite complicated with wiki discussions and editing style consistency, unless there is some sort of referenced explanation or consensus on the use of this word/term. &mdash;Now I've written this, I realise that, regarding the latter part, this is probably easily addressed via the [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Centralized_Discussion/Changes_to_terminology#Style_and_consistency|Style and consistency]] section here, and/or the [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Manual_of_Style|Manual of Style]]. --[[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 18:30, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

: I made some changes to the disambig page to follow wikipedia's style. That style is good because it gets to the point quickly without forcing the reader to follow links to understand the differences between different meanings. Also, I think we should consolidate stubs where it makes sense. [[Symbols (menu)]] is nothing more than a list of [[symbol of office]], so I think the articles should be merged.—[[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 18:32, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

:: I agree; and with your comment [[Talk:Objects|here]] about adding it to a section on the [[menu]] page. [[Menu]] needs a good rewrite for v50, and new information added, though. I think it would be appropriate to have some form of plain English clarification about the use of the word Object though. - '''e.g.''' in the context of the menu/interface, an object is always a type of item, but not all items are objects - as far as the game's menu classifications go. If you look at the Objects [[Template:V50_menus|menu tabs]], the first three are [[legendary_artifact|artifacts]], [[symbols]] and [[named objects]]. All three of these can be separate things, or combinations of them. Probably needs a lot of verification for specifics. I think written items can be both artifacts and named objects too. As you implied, lexicographical nuances are probably a misuse of a disambiguation page. So: clarification in a relevant section of the menu page seems okay for this? Maybe with a 'see also' to raw file objects, for good measure (which I've had trouble finding). [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 01:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

=== Plurals ===
Regarding plurals, I think:
* When an average wiki user would reasonably think of a different meaning for the plural, having separate articles is fine (e.g. [[bar]] and [[bars]]), with a ''see also'' on both pages
* In other cases, the plural should generally redirect to the singular.

I think things like "symbols", "objects", etc fall under the latter category. I went ahead and redirected [[Symbols]] to [[Symbol]], and moved the article about the menu to [[Symbols (menu)]]. —[[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 18:28, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

: That makes sense. It occurred to me too, but I wasn't sure about using some kind of "(menu)" title suffix, as I've not seen any consistent examples of that. As long as the style is consistent, I think this is a good solution. On that note: Perhaps [[Menu_symbols]], or even [[Menu_objects_symbols]] might be better? "_" delimeters, representing specific structure of phrasing, rather than parentheses, seem to be more in-keeping with page naming style consistency, particularly regarding specific interface/file terminology. Even more so when it is representing some logical structure relating to the interface or files. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 01:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

:: Now I've said that, I'm probably thinking too much about filename structres. I assume you the title is whatever the page is, so "Menu objects symbols". If you can make the page name that, but the title Symbols (menu) this would be the best of both worlds though. I am particularly thinking of page names for categories and templates. It's really just personal preference after linking lots of pages for templates etc. I can't recall if a page name and page title can be separate things, though... [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 01:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

::: There's no distinction between page titles and names. I used [[Symbols (menu)]] because parenthetical disambiguation is the standard on wikipedia (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Naming_the_specific_topic_articles here]). I think [[Symbols menu]] would also be fine. Something like "Menu objects symbols" doesn't make sense to me, page names/titles should be readable and there's no need to reflect an in-game heirarchy. —[[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 04:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

:::: Yeah, sorry if I implied "Menu objects symbols" made sense, it definitely doesn't. It was late, and I was probably overthinking things when I typed the above comment. If that is the standard on wikipedia and presumably also the standard on this wiki, no need to change it. As page name = page title, it only makes sense to do the "_" for specific file name pages, after all. As you pointed out, "()" method also negates worrying about breaking wiki style on plurals for page names. &mdash;[[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 21:26, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

==Style and consistency==

I just noticed I have been subconsciously capitalising terms like "Written content" and "Named objects" because that is how it is presented in the game menus, but in this case, even though technically accurate to what is displayed in-game, I think doing this for names on menu tabs looks weird and inconsistent with most other terms used in the wiki. Just an opinion really, but I thought I'd mention it. I imagine most editors wouldn't take in-game terminology accuracy to this extreme, and besides, they are menu tab titles, not really seen in any other context, so it is probable reasonable to assume they are only capitalised when being used as a title in this way. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 22:46, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

===Loosely defined terms===

Related to the above note on capitalization. There are some terms that are not clearly defined, in the game, or from the '[[Toady|word of god]]'; e.g. "group" (what sort of group?) and "symbol" (of an administrative position (''as well as other contexts'')). It might be good to have some consensus on regular usage of some of these examples, but I thought I'd comment here first. If someone else doesn't before me, I'll update the main page with a section for suggesting consistent terminology for anything that might regularly need to be mentioned. As an example, I propose, and have already been using: "[[symbol of office]]", for a symbol assigned to an admin/noble position. [[User:Alpacalypse|Alpacalypse]] ([[User talk:Alpacalypse|talk]]) 22:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)