Editing Talk:Main Page/archive2

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# [[Talk:Main Page/archive1|Archive 1]]
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== Two DF2010 main pages ==
Why are there two DF2010 main pages? When I check the wiki, I see the one with the missing hydra heads image, and the http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Main_Page address, but when I check the 40d version and go back to DF2010 main page, I get Belal's tileset image and the http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Main_Page address. Then, when I check the discussion page and return to the main page, it's http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Main_Page again. Is redirecting messed up or what? --[[Special:Contributions/109.93.118.60|109.93.118.60]] 09:37, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
:There is only one main page for DF2010 - the image shown on it is '''randomly selected'''. The page [[DF2010:Main Page]] is just a redirect to [[Main Page]]. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 12:36, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Except that one shows "'''28.3 out of 100 quality rating for DF2010 namespace (approximate)'''" and the other shows: "'''29.8 out of 100 quality rating for DF2010 namespace (approximate)'''". Not to mention that the page that contains "''(Redirected from DF2010:Main Page)''" in the top left corner is ''http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Main_Page'' It redirects to itself. Also, I get one image on the DF2010:Main_Page, and a different one one at Main_Page. When I check DF2010:Main_Page, it's the first picture again. I made sure that it isn't the same page already. Repeat the steps I mentioned in my first comment and see for yourself. It's not a redirect, those are two different pages. --[[Special:Contributions/109.93.118.60|109.93.118.60]] 17:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
::[http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Main_Page&redirect=no DF2010:Main Page - Redirect page - Main Page]. It is a redirect. When you load a redirect page, it does not actually forward you to the destination page but simply displays it immediately, so the redirect's URL is still in the address bar. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

== HFS creatures ==
We don't seem to have any pages for them, shouldn't they have pages like normal creatures? --[[Special:Contributions/78.151.176.4|78.151.176.4]] 13:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
:Aren't they randomly generated during worldgen?--[[User:SanDiego|SanDiego]] 13:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Oh right, didn't realise that. Thought that they were just lacking raws. --[[Special:Contributions/92.29.248.178|92.29.248.178]] 14:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, you're both right :P. They're randomly generated, and they lack raws! --[[User:612DwarfAvenue|612DwarfAvenue]] 06:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

== Random page function ==

I'm not familiar with how the Special:Random function works, but would it be possible to restrict it to random pages from particular namespaces? Getting 23a, 40d and DF2010 pages returned isn't very helpful. [[User:Oddtwang of Dork|Oddtwang of Dork]] 16:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
:That would require (iirc) some fairly heavy editing to the mediawiki code. We're trying to avoid modding the code because that creates problems with updating the mediawiki software to new versions. [[user:Emi|<span style="color:#8a4e4e">Emi</span>]] [[user_talk:Emi|<span style="color:#6a3e4e">[T]</span>]] 18:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
::Just a little correction, you an get to just DF2010 pages by appending "/DF2010" to the end of special random.
:: For example. [[Special:Random/DF2010]], [[Special:Random/Utility]], ect.
:: Perhaps this link might be useful as a more available link? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

== DF2010 Title needs changing ==

The new version is now df_31_01 and each article beginning with "DF2010" seems tacky. Any others agree it should be changed to df31 or something around like that? [[User:Richards|Richards]] 19:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:The problem is that we version the wiki for each game-save compatibility change.  Simply changing it to 31.01 would fix it now, but when 31.02 - 39.07 come out, and then finally 40.01 comes out that breaks save compatibility, we have much more work to do. Until we know the final version number in the series, it's not easy for us to just say "oh, this is it." --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 20:02, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::And wtf is the precedent? In all the versions of the wiki I've seen, versions are always specified as the actual number. How is it more clear to use DF2010 instead of v0.31.01? --Peewee 09:57, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

:If you aren't planning to make more special version namespaces for a while, let's use the main namespace. Also, you guys really need to talk things out more before implementing giant sweeping changes. The more I see you describe your respective visions for the wiki, the more different they seem from each other. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 11:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

::Well. A solution would be to make every article title for the current version just say the article name, ex/ instead of "DF2010:Armor", make it "Armor", like last time. If a new version is released that is different, then archive it as whatever version it last applied to, like "40d:Armor, or 31.01:Armor". Is there any problem with this idea? [[User:Richards|Richards]] 14:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)




Yes, there is.  (Namely, the amount of labor you're talking about if pages are not set-up for that.)

Here's "The Plan", which was set up a couple months ago (and which has been discussed elsewhere, but we'll do it one more time)...
:* Old versions are clearly labeled and consistently linked internally. All 40d links bounce around only to 40d articles, so if a player is researching that version, it's all one package.  ''(Same w/ 23a, the "2-D" version previous to that, but an ongoing and lower-priority project.)''
:* "New" versions are, likewise, consistent within themselves.  Versionless search terms (like "[[stone]]" automatically default to "current version".
:* Future versions get their own version names, "current" becomes one-older, and the pattern continues.
The current PROBLEM is three-fold - the first is the changeover itself, when first time Editors start firing away at articles without the correct names or understanding The Plan.  That is understandable, but compounded by the fact that we don't currently ''know'' the "proper" version number to use - is it 0.31.01, or 0.31, or 31.01 - when the first bugfix comes out, what will be changed and what kept? What part of that number constitutes/defines this as a "version"?  There is no equiv of 23.a or 40.d - it's a new code, and we weren't given the codebook. (We're waiting on Three-toe/Toady for a response on that.) The 3rd problem is "DF2010" - which is wrong, but while popular and everyone is using it, it won't be very friendly later down the road.

So... we've got something that works now but won't in the future, and needs to be changed to be consistent so we don't bequeath future Admin and users the big bone. A diff between more work now and the sort of complete cluster that has gone on behind the scenes for the last 2 months preparing for this change - which is going SO MUCH SMOOTHER NOW (believe it or not!) because of that (thankless, ahem) preparation.

Once we know the correct version, all current articles will appear as that.  Search terms will default to current version. Older articles will be consistent within their own namespace. AND we'll be setup for future version changes without quite so much trauma (which is ''why'' some of the more obscure of these changes are being implemented). Clear as mud?--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

:Are you basically trying to say that DF2010 is a convenient placeholder string that can be used to identify and move articles by bot when we get a stable version number from Toady? --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 19:20, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

::Dammit, if I could express myself in anything less than 500 words at a time, I would have! (Yes, that's basically what I'm saying.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:31, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure who wins the eloquence award here.  Anyways, we're still waiting on information from ToadyOne before we rename DF2010 to something else more appropriate. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 19:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

:::: Toady has already said that he plans to aim for possibly as often as a weekly bugfix release while the early issues of this release get ironed out. Trying to keep up with release number changes weekly would be an absolute nightmare. Until things calm down a bit I don't blame anyone here in the least for using DF2010 as a more general version name. [[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 15:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::It ''is'' understood that Toady intends (ideally) for this to be both the last save-compat breaking version and the last major long-delay version...  correct?  Putting the entire Wiki in a namespace forever seems to me like a fairly terrible idea in any case, but it is intended for future versions to change much less of existing stuff as things go on (that is why this version took so long, in part, to get all the sweeping structural changes out of the way.)  It is unlikely that there will ever be another version that would require reversioning the entire wiki, if, indeed, you think that even this one reached that level. While I'm not sure I'd agree that it was necessary to reversion the wiki for this version, the DF development plan is certainly intended to be such that revisioning the Wiki like this will never be necessary again.  --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 03:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::: All I'm saying is that for the immediate near future a large number of incremental bug fix releases are to be expected. To avoid driving people completely nuts trying to keep up with frequent version changes it makes sense to use the DF2010 title in the short term. After we see things settle down a bit I agree we should probably go ahead and return to an actual version number. [[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 17:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::With the new version numbering system being so much simpler, could we simply refer to the version as 31a? Then changing letters to account for bugfixes. I'm using 0.31 enough myself but the decimal point is awful. --[[User:Retro|Retro]] 17:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Not really. We're mainly talking about the namespace's name. Changing a namespaces's name is a BIG headache (though it is the reason we're using the <nowiki>{{l|link}}</nowiki> stuff) because we did know that we'd be doing at least one change, and that gets rid of a decent portion of the headache. [[user:Emi|<span style="color:#8a4e4e">Emi</span>]] [[user_talk:Emi|<span style="color:#6a3e4e">[T]</span>]] 18:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::I'm still waiting on ToadyOne to provide an official tagname for this series of releases.  If we receive one, we will use it in the wiki. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 19:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

== World Painter Page ==
The wiki has needed a page on the [[World Painter]] for a while, so I've started one.  The information in there is decent, but I'm relatively new to wiki editing, so the formatting probably isn't.  If someone wouldn't mind cleaning it up a bit for me I'd really appreciate it. --[[User:Timmeh|Timmeh]] 01:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

:Well I don't know if someone helped you already, but it looks fine to me. --[[User:frandude|frandude]]
:I changed the name into World Painter so it looked better (no more petty redirects!) [[User:Inawarminister|Inawarminister]] 12:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

== French language wiki ==

Can we have interlanguage links with the [http://www.dwarffortress.fr/wiki/ French wiki]? -[[User:Alan Trick|Alan Trick]] 17:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

== Add a CptnDuck page? ==

Captain Duck is a DF video tutorial maker, which an impressive collection of 40 videos on youtube (and a few extra videos of sieges and arenas and whatnot), and explains how to do most everything, from magma forges to Dwarven justice. He adds humor to it and he's the reason a lot of people understand the game...I think we should give him a page. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Blackdoggie998|Blackdoggie998]]</small>

:As it is insanely easy for anyone to sign up for editing priviledges on this site (I managed to, after all), I see no need to make one for him when he could make one for himself. However, if you wish to add user:CptnDuck, or invite him to make one himself, feel free. He can link to all of his tutorials from his user page. They even be searchable through that lovely little box to the(my) left. (Who knows where it is on your skin.)   -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.

:P.S. Does it seem odd to you to have it say "unsigned comment by [username]"? Or is that just me?   -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, just a little after the previous one.
:: Clicking 'unsigned' gave me all the explanation I need, might want to do the same [[User:Kinzarr|Kinzarr]] 23:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

:We don't need a userpage for him, but a page with the assembled listing of all his (and others of equal quality) video tutorials wouldn't be a bad idea at all. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 16:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== Articles on Olivine and other generic stones ==

There is a current discussion as to whether or not [[Olivine]] (and perhaps some few other stones) are duly covered on the current [[stone]] page, or are truly worth having their own article/page.  This relates to a larger question of how this wiki is organized, and "What deserves a page" in a general sense.  Any interested are encouraged to chime in, if only with a "me too" post pro or con.  See [[Talk:Olivine]] for an idea of the issue. I'd like to have the debate move from the specific Olivine page to here since this is a more general issue that affects many potential pages. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 21:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

:I'm not really sure which way to go on this one. A lot of otherwise useless stones would need their own articles if the guidelines were expanded... and yet, there's a good amount of useful information that's not on the main pages, that would further clutter them if it were added; And permitting more individual pages would solve both those problems. I guess this ends up being a vote both ways, with provisions on each. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 23:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


:My vote is, if someone can make it amusing, then sure. If someone is of the bent to enjoy making such a page, then again, sure... otherwise, leave it at the bottom of the pile of "things that someday we might get around to if we feel like it" and don't stress. The relevant data is covered (or will be when someone notices it's not), and everything else is gravy. Beside, what would you rather do, play the game, or figure out how to make a whole page of jokes about how gneiss nice is.... (or did I get that backwards?)... ?  --[[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.


::All relevant information is covered, yes. But not necessarily on a relevant page. Before the Olivine page was made you couldn't learn that olivine may contain native platinum from any page related to olivine or stone in general. 
::Another example is kaolinite. You can look it up in the table of Other Stone to see it can be found in sedimentary rock.  But in order to see that it may itself contain alunite and marcasite you have to go through the entire table (or use the browser search function). Now, in order to see if it may contain anything else, you have to notice the note at the top of the page (just above the table of contents) that points to Metal Ore and Gem, whith another two tables you have to search through. (Kaolinite may contain turquoise). --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 21:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

:It's not just about "which stones" - it's a larger question of how the wiki is organized and presented.  Should each separate and distinct item get its own page, like the current one- or two-line articles on [[vial]]s, [[instrument]]s or [[Restraint|chain]]s, (just as random parallel examples of some [[finished goods]] that have their very own, very short, very dull, and predictably repetitive articles.)  Surely the [[Masons guild]] and [[miners guild]] don't deserve or need separate articles.  Do we need a separate and largely redundant article for every trap weapon?  What about the cookie-cutter articles on ''every'' individual animal?  The GCS deserves its own, and many others, but one on each separate type of shark and hunting cat?  There is no actual article there, only a template.

:Quivers and bolts are sub-sections of the [[crossbow]] article, and I think that's a ''great'' call.  Olivine, talc and kaolinite are merely similar examples, distinct enough to warrant special treatment, but on the borderline of being so small to each only represent a stub. Ultimately, I don't think a functional formal definition would be easily achieved - rather guidelines and a fuzzy target, combining related info into groups with optimal size limitations (both lower end and upper end).  Perhaps a template should not be forced on every lesser example, but they could be grouped into a table on their own article, "other stones of note" or "sharks" or "finished goods" or whatever.

:In many ways, our only current guidelines are "what has been done so far" - and that varies widely and wildly.  Too often, pages are cobbled onto related ones, or split off just because its a new topic, if a brutally short one.  Myself, I'd like to see most related articles of less than 4 lines or so get grouped into larger, more universally informative articles, and anything larger than maybe 5 full sub-sections be considered for splitting up.  If an item stands out from the rest, it should stand out somewhere, in an article - but that doesn't mean it has to have its very own, or invite every similar item to do so as well.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 03:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Please check out the (no longer) current [[Chalk]] page and tell me what you think. ... which is to say, it doesn't /have/ to be a stub, does it? It can be rich and detailed and sadly unamusing. It would please me to continue to do all stones in this manner, or another manner of your choosing.... Thus negating fussing over "this one was done this way, that one was done that way" arguments. I'll get to them all, in the order they appear on the [[Stones]] page. ... assuming you guys are ok with that. --[[User:Teres Draconis]] 08:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:: P.S. Who's the outpost manager of this place, anyways? I'd like to know to whom I should be pandering. --jaz

::: I think 1) you should take time to read, if not learn the wiki format guidelines, 2) you should sign with your REAL user name, and stop using a pseudonym, and 3) you should not break someone else's post with yours in between their paragraphs. As to the chalk page, I think it's over-enthusiastic and pays no attention to previous article style or formatting precedent - which may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 09:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:::: 1) You're right, I'm sorry. 
::::2) We've discussed user names on [[User_Talk:Teres_Draconis#Naming Conventions|my talks page]]. (Also, <nowiki>~~~</nowiki> still puts "jaz"... why bother with the link when it's just a P.S.?) 
::::3) I'm sorry. I was (apparently) trained wrong, and that was a /long/ time ago. I was taught (20 years ago) that when responding, to do so in-line, so that people can tell what the response is actually relating to. (Like an actual conversation, except with a time warp. You say something, I respond, someone else adds, we all move on to the next topic.) It supposedly adds clarity. The style and curtesy rules of such things has changed. I can see I'll need to update myself. Thank you for pointing that out. =)
::::4) I was hasty. I had to have meatspace people explain to me why, as wiki-''writers'', you would not want so much detail on a page. Especially when, with every new game release, any given page on the wiki might need an over haul. I was only looking at it from the end-user perspective of "If I'm looking for information, I don't want a page that just tells me to go look at the three pages I've already looked at. I want a page that reduces the noise of the irrelevant, and distills to just that specific (sub-)topic." I /don't/ see the point of six pages that are identacle except for title, and all only three lines long. If it's got it's own page, it should have it's own page. If it just links back to the three pages that linked to it, and they all link to each other already, what's the point? If the only thing Chalk has going for it is that it's flux, why not just make a note on the [[Stone]] page reading, "These three rocks can be used as flux" and link to the flux page from there? Why should chalk have it's own page, if it's not going to be richly detailed and, you know, informative?  - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::::The templates are there because they are pretty, detailed, and condensed ways to display some key information. Rather than expanding existing information so that it takes up more space, it's more productive to add things that you think are lacking. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

::: I changed the other [[Stones]] table to allow for interesting minerals that are in other[[Stones]] to be posted.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:What would actually be helpful is a [[Geology]] primer, indicating how layers and inclusions are placed, where, and what the implications of "You have struck XXX" are. I know, now, that if it's olivine, I have a chance of finding veins of native platinum. One good page explaining what all of the geological processes mean would be a lot more useful then all of the various descriptions of exploratory mining. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 22:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
::That sounds like a great idea.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:::I agree! But I have no idea how to write it. Most of what I know about geology I learned from looking at the raws. Everything else is "OMG, is that a ''rock''?! I've heard of those!" - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::"More useful" to some, but I agree it would be a great addition. Also, the more I think about it, the more I like what MrDG did with the table in Other Stone - tables could condense any and all small, individual articles into single pages w/ (sortable?) tables where all these various similar objects could be compared/contrasted at a glance.  Templates are perfect when there is a lot of various info, but if the different topics (semi-generic stones, animals, finished goods) all differ only in one or two details, and there is just not that many variables to begin with, a Table would be (imo) preferable. ''(And imo that table now covers such stones as Olivine well, to get back to the original example that sparked this discussion.)''

::As an additional example of how current stub-articles could be combined into a simple table, I've made this page - [[Example - some fish]] - which could be a model for such.  (A page/table with all the "Sea-creatures" would be more likely approp, but this was faster for now.)  It would replace every stub-article on related "generic" items, but any truly noteworthy items would still have their own full articles for expanded information and commentary (here, "carp").  It still has 100% of the prev information, but also allows immediate comparison and contrast, and, if sortable, allows a User to more easily compare relations between similar aspects (like "biome", in this example.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::: Is it possible to put the expandable version of the raw ("game object data (show)" seen at the bottom of the [[carp]] page) inside the table, instead of the whole thing? Or does the one preclude the other?  - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

:::Actually, if someone finds it easy to extract that information from the .RAWs, I would find that an improvement on what [[Creatures]] currently has. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 17:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::::If someone here knows PHP they may be able to write a new wiki hook that pulls information from raw entries. That would make many things much easier. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

:::Which information do you want extracted? I can probably do it for you, but you may have heard, I'm in the doghouse for not paying attention to style and formating rules. =/  Show me what there is, and one example of what you want, and I can probably do it for you with a minimum of stupid questions. ... ''Probably.''   - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::::@ jaz, Dec - Did either of you look at this sample table? [[Example - some fish]]  Does that cover what you were envisioning?  It's just a rough idea - but it could work the same way that the table on the [[stone]] page currently does, to cover all the generic, almost-identical objects. Same w/ finished goods, weapon traps, probably many other sim categories of like items.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I've read this sort of. My view is, wikis add value to the game far more for noobs than they do to legends who have been around since when the z-axis was just an idea. With this in mind, I reckon if everything with a name in the game had an article that would be *A Good Thing* (tm). Just my own opinion, feel free to disagree. Ideally, articles for things like stones should contain a template constructed from the raws, with prose/dialogue manually added.
Even things like [[screw pump]] could have a template driven section, advising what the components are / who makes it etc. Maybe <nowiki>{{building|Building Name|Component 1:Component 1 name|Component X| component X name|Constructed by|trade}}</nowiki> or similar.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 08:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

:I agree, probably, although that sounds like a lot of work. I think the stone templates and articles could do with a bit of a cleanup and more in-game information. I mostly use the articles to see if there's anything notable about a particular stone and then check out the wikipedia page. Some of the wikipedia links are broken or indirect now because disambiguity pages have been added since. Also, the wikipedia links are right at the bottom of very long boxes listing ores and gems and the like - I suggest adding drop down boxes to the templates that contain all that information but which are minimized by default. Or changing the template so that the wikipedia link wraps around the stone name at the top. --[[User:Harmonica|Harmonica]] 01:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Way late to this party, apologies. Tables are no good (to me) if they aren't sortable. The World Ends With You (a Nintendo DS game) Wikia portal/wiki thing has an ''awesome'' method for adding sortable tables. Some gadget called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki Semantic MediaWiki] that hooks into the Wiki to automatically pull data out as you request it, then display it in easy-to-read and use sortable tables. The TWEWY Wikia has [http://twewy.wikia.com/wiki/The_World_Ends_With_You:Semantic_MediaWiki a page on it] for their editors, giving a few examples of how powerful it is. Their use of the tool is to easily pull information from a table of 304 items, each containing 30 attributes, to generate lists comparing and compiling various items. Hugely powerful, extremely flexible.

This type of tool would work wonderfully with a PHP RAW parser, or even simple dumps of the RAWs to the Wiki. Think of how easy it would be to update the entire Wiki across the board when new versions come out. New critters? Changes to existing critters? Update the information in one spot and it trickles down through the entire Wiki! That's in addition, of course, to being able to, say, generate tables listing how many bones each creature drops when killed, then sort to see which one drops the most. Pretty sweet stuff.

With some sort of system in place for wading through all the data on the wiki, one wouldn't have to worry about having too much information, right? -- [[User:Blank|Blank]] 04:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


Particularly for stone, I think that it would be a good idea to describe each individual stone relative to other, similar stones.  Let's use [[sandstone]] as an example.  Suppose that I read (either in its own article, or in a table) something along the lines of "Sandstone is a [[sedimentary]] layer.  Unlike most sedimentary layers, it may contain [[aquifers]] or veins of [[native copper]]."  If I already know what a sedimentary layer is (and how it differs from other types of layers), this information will be much easier to process and much more useful than a full list of everything that appears in sandstone.  If I have no idea what a sedimentary layer is, this will tell me that there are several sedimentary layers and that they all have many things in common, which is again more useful than a list of everything that appears in sandstone. --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 08:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
:That's not the way this (any?) wiki is set up.  The idea is that a lesser concept (here, "sandstone") need not include redundant info from a larger, parent concept (here, "sedimentary layer").  If you don't know what a sed'y layer is (or an aquifer or a vein or whatever) you click that link.  If, then, you don't know what a "layer" is, you click that link.  Sounds good at first, but if every lesser article included an explanation, even a quick synopsis, of the info for all relevant articles on broader, umbrella concepts, the articles, and this wiki as a whole, would explode beyond usefulness. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for making my point for me.  If you look at the current sandstone article, it lists everything contained in sandstone.  Looking at just the ores and non-generic stones, we have:  Native copper, Hematite, Limonite, Magnetite, Native platinum, Tetrahedrite, Bituminous coal, Lignite, Bauxite.  All of these except for native copper appear in every sedimentary layer.  That's not even counting all of the generic stone (especially gypsum with its five other types of generic stone contained in it) and (mostly low-value) gems.  95% of the text in this article is redundant, and could easily be summarized by "This layer is exactly like every other sedimentary layer except for these two differences". --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 09:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
:::Ah - ''that's'' your point. (When you said "describe", I thought you were advocating a narrative commentary on and verbal expansion of the info included in the sidebar.) When I was talking about not having redundant info, I was talking text - which is quite terse in this case, exactly because of the point you make.  Those sidebars were designed to encapsulate the key info, an "at a glance" sort of thing, to avoid exactly what you're talking about in narrative form. Are the sidebars redundant? Often, yes.  But they are the style this wiki has adopted for ''all'' stone.  So you're talking not just about changing sed'y layers, but the style approach to all stone, since they would not then be consistent across the board. (Not how I would have personally designed the layout, but it's there and it works, and well. Any stone, same layout, same info in the same place, bam got it.)  And when discussing presentation and usability issues, any article has to be taken both individually and in the context of others "like" it - here, any "stone" article is the same layout, the same info at a glance, which (for now) trumps whatever redundancies exist.  Perhaps a quick line such as you're stating would go well, since there is, indeed, very little unique to say about any one sub-type of sedimentary layer, and that is info in and of itself. (Take a look at any [[igneous extrusive]] except obsidian for something similar.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 16:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

A lot of people have been talking a lot of things about reorganizing the information on the stones pages. After browsing around on them for a while, I've found the information to be mostly scattered and difficult to draw conclusions from. For example, I wasn't aware that each geographic stone type had a base list of stones that can appear, while only some of them have a couple of unique stones that may appear along with that list. It wasn't until I began gathering all of that data together for myself, that I found the patterns. I had to work to tie it all together. So, I have a partially completed table of pulldown menus on my user page right now. If anyone's interested they could take a look and tell me what they think? (Yes, I know a lot of it is redundant. I have an idea on how to fix this, but I haven't completely decided yet) --Kydo 13:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Lumping all the generic stones into one page is pretty much a labor saving device. There are a lot of different stones in DF most of which have no real differences other than color. So in one respect, I do see reasoning for saving some effort and dumping them in one place. On the other hand, it would be useful to me to see slightly more detailed information about each of the colored stones, for example, I know alunite looks a certain way before it is mined out, it's general color is bright white, when used to build trap components it is bright white in both the on and off position (many stones go to dark in the off position). In the same vein, when used to build tables and chairs, both will be bright white (many stones go to dark for chairs). If you're looking for a "certain look" and want to know a tiny bit more about the stone colors at present, that information simply isn't here as things are now. [[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 16:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== Not a Roguelike ==

Dwarf Fortress only resembles a Roguelike in the sense that everything kills you. ASCII graphics haven't connoted Rogue-resemblance since Diablo came out with modern 3D graphics and was still considered a Roguelike.
[[User:LogicalDash|LogicalDash]] 22:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you for Fortress mode, but adventurer mode is rogue like.--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 22:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

:DF is rogue-like like.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 08:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

LogicalDash, Diablo is in 2D, not 3D. --[[User:612DwarfAvenue|612DwarfAvenue]] 05:10, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

What makes a rogue-like? too classic a question to pass up . ahem IMHO there three major elements, A dungeon crawl/ fantasy setting, ASCII and random as hell. That makes dwarf fortress three outta three hits for me. Close enough, i'd say, if it's not a rogue-like what other category could it go in? sure its not a great fit but a unique game has to go somewhere. Diablo is a dungeon crawl like rogue sure, but it lacks the depth and randomness of any of the other recognised roguelikes, ADOM, moria etc.  So one outta three? The depth, randomness and spontaneity really make it, ever had a character eaten by a bear on the way to the village in ADOM? classic. --[[User:Pedantictype|Pedantictype]] 05:46, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
:I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Pedantictype. A Rogue-like is defined by the original: Rogue. Rogue was, first and foremost, a dungeon-crawl with control of a single character, yes? I would postulate that that is one of the elements that is required to be defined as a rogue-like, which qualifies Adventure mode but not Fortress mode. --[[User:Eagle0600|Eagle0600]] 05:04, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
::Eagle's right. A roguelike game plays somewhat like Rogue and has ascii graphics. Fortress mode DF is a tactical/strategic/sandbox ascii game, not a roguelike. And isn't there general intent for it to have graphics one day, once it's out of the design stages? --Kydo 01:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

== Link to Add Quotes ==

To get help on how to add quotes to the main page, consult [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|this]] link.

== Incoming New Version ==

Guys. We might as well prepare for the new version that will be coming by the end of the year (maybe).  What will need to change?  Weapons and armor, the underground stuff... I don't know all of it. But it's extensive.  Get ready.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
:Well, we don't know all the details, and names of jobs/items can change before actual release. [[User:Kurokikaze|Kurokikaze]] 16:14, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
:I don't see what this has to do with anything, i guess it's nice of you to tell us. But what do you mean "get ready?"
: Gird your loins, gentlemen. Or something.
::It'll be hard to cover every page - if you edit, try to follow up on links, etc.  Might also have to check the "oldest pages" listing to see that they've all been updated (except it's broken atm). The worst currently is that we ''still'' have legacy crap from earlier versions in obscure corners and comments that's not relevant to current version. Bonus.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
:This might be useful: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AT8EQVUjrv96ZGc5cnBwOHZfMjgyY3FzZHFtanA&hl=en
:Are we just changing this wiki? (as opposed to forking with the new version, in case some people keep playing 40d?) [[Special:Contributions/206.45.111.58|206.45.111.58]] 22:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
::Forking sounds good to me. But I have no idea how well wikis handle forking. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 14:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
:::In any case I think it would be a good idea to updated articles as is, and not wipe them out like in the wiki's switch to 3d which simply wiped out a lot of good information along with outdated text. Forking is a good route to take if people don't want to lose 40d inforamtion. [[User:Richards|Richards]] 19:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

== Interwiki ==

Correct link to Russian DF wiki, please.
Right link = www.dfwk.ru instead current www.dfwiki.ru --[[Special:Contributions/91.192.82.106|91.192.82.106]] 11:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
:It's done, so should we delete this conservation? (not that great at wiki myself) [[User:Inawarminister|Inawarminister]] 09:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
::They get archived at some point, so no need. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

== Random page ==

Why is "Random page" only bringing me to "Count Consort"? :\ --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 22:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
:It seems "Random page" is only random daily... Is this intentional? --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 20:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
::There's probably something wrong with your browser cache settings - it works fine for me. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

== Random images ==

Where are the images on the main page coming from? It's easy to find the quotes, but where are the images? [[User:MC Dirty|MC Dirty]] 15:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

:I have an image I'd like added... I'll put it on my userpage if anyone wants to take a look at it and see if it's acceptable for uploading. --[[User:Waladil|Waladil]] 06:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

== New Category Idea - Well Known Dwarves ==

After reading some stories on many of the most awesome dwarfs to show up in this game. (Namely Captain Ironblood, Morul, Tholtig) That a category, perhaps a sub one to Humor and Stories just for Dwarves that are very very clearly above the normal for the already outrageous(ly awesome) game of Dwarf Fortress. However do to the fact this is less on the game mechanics and such, the idea is first here so other's can figure if it's worth having a category. One thing that comes to mind is there really should be some sort of limit to what makes a Dwarf and Epic/Well Known Dwarf so as to prevent people from putting everyone they liked up there rather then the few '''everyone''' likes. Mostly asking as there is a handful of such dwarfs and that number is only going to (slowly) grow. Each said Dwarf I think deserves some sort of noting on a page for my two cents on the topic.
:I definitely thing that this is a great idea in the true spirit of DF.
::These should of course go under D for Dwarf.

== Images ==

So, what does everyone think? Would it be a good idea to have real-world images (or possibly sketches for fantasy, if applicable) of the following:
* Trees
* Fish
* Land animals
* Weapons and armor
* Stones
* Ores
* Land features (desert, savannah, etc.)
* Gems
* Metals
* Plants
We already have two pages with example images for a [[Pike_(weapon)#Pike|weapon]] and a [[Sandstone|stone]] for example. I find this very nice for visualizing my fortress and what's going on, since I'm not very familiar with many of the distinctions DF makes. I mean, I know what a fish looks like but I haven't got a clue what the difference between a pike and a char is, or a birch and alder, or even bronze and pewter to be honest.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 22:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
:The normal issues with this kind of thing is REAL-WORLD publishers being annoying with copyright. I guess if we can find it from the real-world wiki then there is a good chance it is a public domain image.
:There is no way in the world it would hurt an article to have one of these. Although, for fantasy objects, materials, and creatures, there may well be some discussion about if the "Dragon" should be a European, Oriental, or some other dragon (and so on for the rest).
:<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 11:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
::Well, I've added pictures to some of the layer stones and vermin, as well as all the ores. If anyone is interested, you can link to files on wikimedia commons as if they were internal files now.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 04:52, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
:::What if those of us with artistic skills were to produce original content for such pages? For example, I could easily do a few drawings depicting certain fantasy creatures as well as actual creatures. --Kydo 22:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
::::I don't see how that could even remotely hurt at all.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 15:21, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
::Who says that the 'Dragon' as a creature isn't a generalization of any species? To be honest, with the graphics as they are, I think that most of Dwarf Fortress comes down to the way the user imagines it, rather than how it appears on screen. Rather like the old text based adventure games of old.--[[Special:Contributions/85.12.64.150|85.12.64.150]] 10:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Whoever you are, that is why i don't use a tileset.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
:As a rule of thumb, "graphics" are good things - eye candy, if nothing else. Purty.  Use common sense and discretion when choosing (or creating) the image - avoid genre-specific images or anything that is copyrighted (like from an identifiable RPG, for instance), and perhaps add "artist's interpretation" under it, or a selection of (smaller) different images for something like a dragon (tho' I, personally, don't see dwarves with oriental dragons - ymmv.) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
::Seeing as how this is a wiki and what not, why not simple add a western dragon, and if anyone objects to the bias they can add an oriental dragon, so we have two pictures and not only both sides are happy but everyone gets more pictures to look at?--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 15:21, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
:(Also, if you're interested enough to post in the Main Page Discussion, you might want to get an account. Meh.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

== No link to World Generation? ==

Home page needs a link to World Generation. I thought of adding it, but didn't want to upset the delicate symmetry happing in the menus. Thoughts as to where it could go? [[Special:Contributions/118.208.7.232|118.208.7.232]] 04:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

== Namespaces ==

As the subject has been mentioned on the forum:
some articles have been moved to a new 40d namespace. This is intended to make way for the "main" namespace to be reserved for the "current version", which ''real soon now'' will be DF2010.
For the full discussion see [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions]] and the talk page.
<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 10:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


Then bloody well move them.  These blank 40d pages are making finding information that is supposed to be there very hard to find.

:Agreed..Plus I dont understand the site announcements so i pretty much can't contribute to the wiki right now. Hope you got a stable team to help and are done with it soon. Oh, and a better explanation would be great of course. --[[Special:Contributions/92.202.120.234|92.202.120.234]] 00:10, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
::When is the moving of things to the main namespace going to be complete?  Having everything in DF2010 namespace is horribly annoying, and the 40d namespace screws up searches and makes it harder to find stuff via google searches and such.  How long is it going to take to get the wiki fixed to the current version, delete all the old d40 stuff, and get rid of the namespaces? --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 03:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

== Tutorials clutter ==

Currently we have in the first box:
*About Dwarf Fortress
*'''Tutorials and guides'''
*'''Quickstart guide (recent)'''
*'''Frequently Asked Questions'''
*'''Your first fortress'''
*'''Video tutorials'''
*'''Important advice''' 
*'''Indecisive's Illustrated Tutorial''' 
*'''Get help from online chat'''
*Game development	 
*'''Non-Dwarf's Guide to Rock'''
*'''Starting builds'''

Bolded are the ones I think are redundant. Basically, we have the following categories of stuff:
*Tutorials for newbies: Step by step instructions where you follow what the guide says, without necessarily understanding why right away.
*Guides for newbies: General explanations of game concepts, such as z-level, how to set labors, how to farm, how to work the interface and install a graphical tileset, what the aim of the game is, etc.
*Guides for advanced players: These assume you know how to play the game, and are concerned with optimizing/pushing strategy. Embark build discussions which go beyond explaining the bare minimums you should take (such as "don't embark without a pick!", intended for newbies who may not know what they are doing), megaprojects, combat mechanics, computing, farming strategies, defense strategies, design strategies, macros, world generation parameter discussion and the like.
*FAQ, bugs and troubleshooting: The index of known problems and what to do about them, for when you have a clear question you want to figure out. This includes the FAQ, IRC channels and bugs to watch out for.
That makes 4 categories. Currently, we have 10 categories dealing with the same things. Moreover, the current break down makes no sense, and is obviously not maintained (I think that quickstart guide has been "recent" since early last summer). It's becoming confusing for the clueless first time player who was just linked to Bay12 and the wiki on a forum, and left to fend for itself. In fact, ideally, the tutorials and newbie guides should also be sorted from short to long, with datestamps.

I would rearrange the box myself, but I thought I'd ask what everyone else is thinking first. By the way, are there any tutorials for DF2010, or plans to write any? --[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 02:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
::By the way, my proposal is to have the box look like this:
::'''Help with Dwarf Fortress'''
::*About Dwarf Fortress
::*How to set up and play Dwarf Fortress (Tutorials)
::*General game information (explanation of basics)
::*Advanced strategies (for experienced players)
::*Troubleshooting: FAQ, where to ask for help, known bugs and issues
::*Game development
::--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 02:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

::If [[40d:Quickstart guide]] is obsolete, you should definitely remove the links to it from the front page (both "Your first fortress" and "Quickstart guide" end up there). As a new player pointed at this wiki by the game, I wasted twenty minutes trying to load in the save game (was I being unlucky, or does it simply not work with the new version?) and gave up on trying to play Dwarf Fortress, as a result. --[[User:Gritspeck|Gritspeck]] 16:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

:I'm all for this, this is a terrible organization.  I like your plan.  Given further agreement (or at least no opposition) I say go for it.  [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, I went ahead and did my best.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 22:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

== New modding guide ==
I'm not really sure what the process is for new guides and tutorials. I figured it would be of general community interest, so I'm posting this here; [[User:Tfaal/The Complete Dorf's Guide to Bodies]] --[[User:Tfaal|Tfaal]] 16:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

==Bug listings on the Wiki==
Given that the version number is expected to be changing quite rapidly in the near future as bugs are caught and killed, I think it's a good idea to always keep a version number associated with any bug reports we migrate into the wiki pages. This will hopefully minimize confusion as updates gradually remove these. If we could get one of those mini-version tags to use for this purpose or if someone can explain to me how to use that half-sized font for this purpose that would be helpful. Thanks. [[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 16:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
:There is already a template for this: [[Template:Version]]. You use it as follows. 
:<nowiki>Example.{{version|0.23.130.23a}}</nowiki>
:results in:
:Example.{{version|0.23.130.23a}} --[[User:Soy|Soy]] 16:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
:: Thank you, that is all I needed. [[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 17:54, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

== What happened to the link to the dev changelog? ==

There used to be a link to the changelog and a link to the 31_01 release information, but now there's just a link to the release information labeled "changelog." Also the main page appears to use a funny template or something so the link's messed up throughout all of the mainpage history.
:-That's a link I used almost daily. While I realize I'm an idiot for not just bookmarking it, it is a little disconcerting for it to :be gone. Either way, I've always thought it was one of the most relevant links on the main page—it let's you know where the game :project is at ''right now''.
:Wow, forgot sig and indent. I'm amazing. :P ----[[User:Njero|Njero]] 01:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Found the template in question, figured there was no reason for the changelog link not to be there so I put it back; it seemed like it was removed by mistake anyway. Also renamed the link to the release information so there wouldn't be two links entitled "changelog." --[[User:Untelligent|Untelligent]] 02:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

==Announcements Hider==
The announcement-hiding script on Briess's page no longer works--it's checking the contents of an id that no longer exists. Replacing the conditional with collapseTable(0) works, but sidesteps the original intent of the conditional, which I presume is to display the options if they've changed since last visit. Does that functionality still apply? While we're at it, is it possible to assign a named value to the collapsible table, so that it can be collapsed without referring to its position relative to other collapsible tables (which breaks the hider script on certain skins)? -[[User:Slitherrr|Slitherrr]]

==How will merging/splitting topics work for backward compatibility linking==
I got thinking about this when helping work on the military pages, we're branching this out into squads/military/schedule/etc. because of how much more complex things have suddenly got with the military system. It was a natural direction to take things. What's the correct way to handle backward compatibility links in this situation? And now that I'm thinking about it, how about page merging? If we decide to merge anything how will that be handled? [[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 03:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

== Game object date boxes ==

These boxes on  the creature pages need some kind of text formatting to stop them expanding to far. Just an example try the [[dog|dog]] page. --[[User:AKAfreaky|AKAfreaky]] 12:54, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

== Carrying over saved games? ==

Hi, is it possible to carry over savegames from one version to the next, and if so, how do I do this? Thanks [[User:EddyP|EddyP]] 10:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
:It is possible - go to the /data folder and just copy the file called "save" to the /data folder in the new DF. You'll then have to edit the raws in each region folder (inside the save folder) to match the new raws in the main /raw folder (or just copy them over). --[[User:AKAfreaky|AKAfreaky]] 20:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
::As long as the "different versions" are within the same "generation" of Dwarf Fortress (i.e. 0.21 thru 0.23, 0.27 thru 0.28, or 0.31), this'll work. If you actually try to copy a saved game from 0.28.101.40d to 0.31.xx, expect it to fail in a very spectacular way. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

==Quote wrong on main page==
The quote on the main page comes up with something to the effect that you cannot milk creatures.  This was true for 40d, but not for the most recent edition.--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 12:23, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
: ''"The alert statuses (i.e., "Stay Indoors") have been entirely redone. You may set several custom alerts with user defined scheduling."'' 
: Is this really intended to be a main page quote? I thought the main pages quotes were usually . . . funny. [[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 02:38, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

== "Your ad here, free!" ==

What's up with another ad space on the bottom of every page? We're getting to a point where more ads just cause more annoyance, not more profit. {{unsigned|213.157.252.41}}
:There are ads? Where? *turns off adblock* OH HOLY CRAP *quickly turns adblock back on* Yeah, if there are more ads than page it kinda defeats the point doesn't it? [[User:Volatar|Volatar]] 14:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
::The ad stuff is trying to get a baseline for different types of ads. We're hoping the button ads perform well enough that we can get rid of the larger banner ads. In 5 or so days the number of ads will decrease depending on what we find. [[user:Emi|<span style="color:#8a4e4e">Emi</span>]] [[user_talk:Emi|<span style="color:#6a3e4e">[T]</span>]] 20:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
::Also, the "free" part is that ads with no bids can be obtained freely, but that'll disappear in the next few days as the ads establish a page view trend. (Which is why in 5 or so days we'll be getting rid of some ads.) [[user:Emi|<span style="color:#8a4e4e">Emi</span>]] [[user_talk:Emi|<span style="color:#6a3e4e">[T]</span>]] 20:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Good enough. Thanks for the explanation! {{unsigned|213.157.252.41}}

== "The wiki currently has 3 articles. " ==

I'm assuming this has something to do with the recent namespace thing? --[[Special:Contributions/217.132.92.69|217.132.92.69]] 10:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
:Haha, yes, I'll get right on that. [[user:Emi|<span style="color:#8a4e4e">Emi</span>]] [[user_talk:Emi|<span style="color:#6a3e4e">[T]</span>]] 18:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
::Looks like someone beat me too it. :( [[user:Emi|<span style="color:#8a4e4e">Emi</span>]] [[user_talk:Emi|<span style="color:#6a3e4e">[T]</span>]] 18:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

== Quality ==
I really like how the bar is counting down to zero. Keep templating, rawing and tableing all you want, eventually you will have to face the truth: to make a helpful wiki you need to ''play'' the game and add ''content''. --[[Special:Contributions/68.161.167.37|68.161.167.37]] 02:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
:What are you objecting to?  Someone said it would be a good idea to know "how close to 'complete' the wiki is", we did that.  If you don't like it then you don't have to look at it.  I'd also like to ask why you think you have such a right to critisize others work after your... 3 edits?  [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 17:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{is Archive|Talk:Main Page}}
+{{Archive|
+# [[Talk:Main Page/archive1|Archive 1]]
-== embiggen release notices? ==
+}}
-I for one am hugely excited about the size of this release.  Can we promote it a bit more?
-== Page visit counter ==
-Before the wiki move, (I think), every game article had a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_counter web counter] at the bottom of the page. It used to be pretty neat. You could create an article and then see how many hits it was getting down at the bottom. It was one incentive to expand on the article, knowing that thousands were reading it.
-I think and vote that this should be brought back. --[[User:Richards|Richards]] 21:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
-: The amount of load this causes on the servers is cost prohibitive.  --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 01:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
 == Two DF2010 main pages ==
@@ Line 16: / Line 7: @@
 :There is only one main page for DF2010 - the image shown on it is '''randomly selected'''. The page [[DF2010:Main Page]] is just a redirect to [[Main Page]]. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 12:36, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 Except that one shows "'''28.3 out of 100 quality rating for DF2010 namespace (approximate)'''" and the other shows: "'''29.8 out of 100 quality rating for DF2010 namespace (approximate)'''". Not to mention that the page that contains "''(Redirected from DF2010:Main Page)''" in the top left corner is ''http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Main_Page'' It redirects to itself. Also, I get one image on the DF2010:Main_Page, and a different one one at Main_Page. When I check DF2010:Main_Page, it's the first picture again. I made sure that it isn't the same page already. Repeat the steps I mentioned in my first comment and see for yourself. It's not a redirect, those are two different pages. --[[Special:Contributions/109.93.118.60|109.93.118.60]] 17:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
-::[http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Main_Page&redirect=no DF2010:Main Page - Redirect page - Main Page]. It is a redirect. When you load a redirect page, it does not actually forward you to the destination page but simply displays it immediately, so the redirect's URL is still in the address bar. Either your web browser or the server itself is caching different versions of the page depending on whether or not you viewed it through the redirect.  --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
+::[http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=DF2010:Main_Page&redirect=no DF2010:Main Page - Redirect page - Main Page]. It is a redirect. When you load a redirect page, it does not actually forward you to the destination page but simply displays it immediately, so the redirect's URL is still in the address bar. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
-Well, it stopped happening after the new-version change of the main page, whatever the cause was. Thanks anyway. --[[Special:Contributions/79.101.254.106|79.101.254.106]] 19:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 == HFS creatures ==
@@ Line 72: / Line 62: @@
 ::::::::Not really. We're mainly talking about the namespace's name. Changing a namespaces's name is a BIG headache (though it is the reason we're using the <nowiki>{{l|link}}</nowiki> stuff) because we did know that we'd be doing at least one change, and that gets rid of a decent portion of the headache. [[user:Emi|<span style="color:#8a4e4e">Emi</span>]] [[user_talk:Emi|<span style="color:#6a3e4e">[T]</span>]] 18:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 :::::::::I'm still waiting on ToadyOne to provide an official tagname for this series of releases.  If we receive one, we will use it in the wiki. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 19:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
-::::::::::Toady's response to what to call this version. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1636714#msg1636714 (7th reply) probably not as satisfactory/definitive as hoped :) --[[User:Quatch|Quatch]] 16:26, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 == World Painter Page ==
@@ Line 180: / Line 169: @@
 :I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Pedantictype. A Rogue-like is defined by the original: Rogue. Rogue was, first and foremost, a dungeon-crawl with control of a single character, yes? I would postulate that that is one of the elements that is required to be defined as a rogue-like, which qualifies Adventure mode but not Fortress mode. --[[User:Eagle0600|Eagle0600]] 05:04, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 ::Eagle's right. A roguelike game plays somewhat like Rogue and has ascii graphics. Fortress mode DF is a tactical/strategic/sandbox ascii game, not a roguelike. And isn't there general intent for it to have graphics one day, once it's out of the design stages? --Kydo 01:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
-DF is closer to Civilisation than ADOM, at least in the Fortress regard. --KingAuggie
 == Link to Add Quotes ==
@@ Line 211: / Line 198: @@
 :It seems "Random page" is only random daily... Is this intentional? --[[Special:Contributions/99.33.67.9|99.33.67.9]] 20:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 ::There's probably something wrong with your browser cache settings - it works fine for me. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
-::: Yes, my Firefox does random each time....must be something with yer Broswer options. :)
 == Random images ==
@@ Line 307: / Line 293: @@
 Well, I went ahead and did my best.--[[User:Ar-Pharazon|Ar-Pharazon]] 22:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
-:I think the frontpage would benefit from highlighting a couple well-written and important pages as well. A "featured article," perhaps. --[[User:Falldog|Falldog]] 01:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
-::I think it does highlight important pages. See the blue boxes. A 'featured article' would (further) clutter the front page while not being of any value to viewers of the front page or users of this wiki in general. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 17:33, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
-::: Let me rephrase. The main page would benefit from the inclusion of links to the most often used reference pages (like the stone summary and the metal summary) than the section on "Playing Dwarf Fortress." It is redundant as there is already a Newbie section and an Advanced tutorials section. I think we agree about that. --[[User:Falldog|Falldog]] 21:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 == New modding guide ==
@@ Line 360: / Line 340: @@
 ::Also, the "free" part is that ads with no bids can be obtained freely, but that'll disappear in the next few days as the ads establish a page view trend. (Which is why in 5 or so days we'll be getting rid of some ads.) [[user:Emi|<span style="color:#8a4e4e">Emi</span>]] [[user_talk:Emi|<span style="color:#6a3e4e">[T]</span>]] 20:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 :::Good enough. Thanks for the explanation! {{unsigned|213.157.252.41}}
-::There are ads?? *switches to IE* oh, yeah, ads.. *switches back to opera* --[[Special:Contributions/92.202.79.42|92.202.79.42]] 11:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 == "The wiki currently has 3 articles. " ==
@@ Line 372: / Line 350: @@
 I really like how the bar is counting down to zero. Keep templating, rawing and tableing all you want, eventually you will have to face the truth: to make a helpful wiki you need to ''play'' the game and add ''content''. --[[Special:Contributions/68.161.167.37|68.161.167.37]] 02:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 :What are you objecting to?  Someone said it would be a good idea to know "how close to 'complete' the wiki is", we did that.  If you don't like it then you don't have to look at it.  I'd also like to ask why you think you have such a right to critisize others work after your... 3 edits?  [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 17:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
-::I think the big problem is that the vast majority of 40d pages are still completely accurate or near-completely accurate to the new version, but little to no effort has been made to port them over.  Now that the latest version has been out for a while, I think it's reasonable to say that it's obvious that 'nuking' the 40d version by forcing it into a separate namespace instead of just trying to update it normally was a terrible mistake -- as was setting up this wretched namespace system, given that this is intended to be the ''last'' such gap between releases.  The change from 40d to 2010 wasn't nearly as sweeping in terms of underlying mechanics as some people on the Wiki thought it would be -- but now, because of the way the changeover was mishandled here, we're left basically rewriting or copy-pasting a bunch of pages for stuff that hasn't changed, and nobody actually wants to waste time doing that when perfectly good and accurate articles exist in 40d namespace.  Look at [[Animal Trap]], say -- the 40d version is detailed and near-perfectly accurate to DF2010, while the DF2010 version is barely more than a stubby paragraph.  This happens all over the place, because people were eager to rewrite (or create) the articles related to stuff that changed, but nobody wanted to waste time rewriting all the relatively accurate articles that were mindlessly pushed into a separate namespace in the botched shift.  --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 16:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
-== Legacy? SDL? ==
-Could someone explain the difference between the legacy and SDL releases? Seems that information ought to be around here somewhere. Can't seem to find it if it is. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 00:12, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
-:From my guess, Legacy is the old version (without SDL), and the SDL... well you get it. --[[User:Hugna|Hugna]] 03:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
-== New website==
-I've got a new website up and running with drupal. It is about dwarf fortress and you can find it [http://darkcloudterrace.dyndns.info/drupal6/ Here darkcloudterrace] it has a forum for dwarf fortress
-== Download Mirrors Working or Broken ==
-I can't seem to download df_31_13 from any of the three mirrors on the front page. Is anyone else having a problem with them?
---[[Special:Contributions/208.81.12.34|208.81.12.34]] 12:55, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
-== Unworthy Self-link ==
-Would it be improper to add a link to [[Bentgirder]] on the home page?
-== Dwarf Forttress Wiki Portable ==
-Hello all.
-I'm building a portable, well somewhat portable, version of the Dwarf Fortress Wiki site. It is being made with Personal Brain (www.thebrain.com) and I will be importing everything I can find.
-Admittedly I will need some help with this project. Any volunteers?--[[User:SpyMaster356|SpyMaster356]] 20:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
-And another note: The finished "Brain" can be used as a navigator for this wiki too.--[[User:SpyMaster356|SpyMaster356]] 21:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
-I'm sorry to say at this rate, that finishing the first wiki is more helpful that creating a new one. -- KingAuggie
-== Front Page Links ==
-I recently added [[Industry]] as a front page link, as well as [[Important Advice]] and others, but I'm afraid that, for a helpful wiki, we need to group things better, into more "portal pages".  This wiki is edited only by seasoned guys like us, but is sposed to be read by noobs.  At the moment, there are far too many choices to make, even in the "New to DF" box. Any thoughts on thinning the herd? Maybe create a new page that can then direct people elsewhere? -- KingAuggie
-* I vote for removing the 'New To Dwarf Fortress?' block, making a page with its contents and more, and linking to that page with a nice big link under the "Playing Dwarf Fortress" section. Something like "Beginners Go Here" centered and at the top of the section. [[User:Calite|Calite]] 17:43, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
-== [[User:Esitowipefy]] ==
-:{{gametext|Esitowipefy, Troll, has gone berserk!|4:1}}
-Personal advice: <del>[[Unfortunate accident]]</del> ban. Please kick this user as far as you can and make a *warning sign* out of his skin. --[[Special:Contributions/212.201.74.67|212.201.74.67]] 23:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
-:: I concur. Avast was warning me that the links were attempting to download a trojan horse, just making him worse. [[User:Neo Kabuto|Neo Kabuto]] 23:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
-::: Done. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 00:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
-Same thing with http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/User:Westhara. For one thing, he just changed the main page to nothing! Someone else fixed it. I would've, but DF wiki was dragging it's feet on sending me my confirmation e-mail. --[[User:Waladil|Waladil]] 15:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
-== Please redirect... ==
-...[[DF2010:Glob]] to [[DF2010:Fat]]. Anonymous page creation is currently prohibited. Thanks :). --[[Special:Contributions/217.225.113.232|217.225.113.232]] 23:41, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
-== Flash Blind! ==
-Gah! Dorf Fort has a black background.  This site has a white background.  Every time I switch from DF to magmawiki I get blinded by the light.  Does anyone else have this problem?  And if so, should we change it? [[Special:Contributions/76.21.249.47|76.21.249.47]] 03:33, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
-:Ha! Sounds to me like you just need to turn down the brightness on your screen.  Then again, the fawn background at the [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Oblivion Oblivion wiki] is very attractive...  Maybe you're onto something... [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 05:15, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
-::On the English Wikipedia, there is an option to make it so the wiki is in black background with green text, it only works on the MonoBook skin, which just so happens to be the default here. If someone could look into making a version compatible with this wiki, then that would solve that problem. (Another solution is to 'snap' the wiki to one half of your screen and DF to the other half in windows 7.) [[User:Akjar13|Akjar13]] 20:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
-== Why is there no pages on Body Detail Plan Tokens or Creatue Variation Tokens? ==
-Can it really be that nobody other than Toady himself knows how these tokens actually work? And if not, why don't these types of tokens have their own wiki pages? I for one would put one in myself but I don't know how to create a new page or have much significant info on how these tokens work. But even a mostly empty page consisting only of a note asking for help from other wiki contributors would be better than the nothing that we have on these topics now.
-== Doc flow for noobs ==
-I've been trying to improve the documentation for for noobs lately. As part of this I'd like to '''propose the following change to the "New to dwarf fortress?" box''' on the main page:
-http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/User:Ral/Testmain
-Essentially the idea is to organize this into:
-# What the heck is this and do I even want to try it? (about dwarf fortress)
-# How do I install the software and what next? (How to Set Up and Play Dwarf Fortress)
-## How do I start learning to play Fortress Mode and what tutorials are there? (Fortress mode quickstart)
-## How do I start learning to play Adventure Mode and what tutorials are there? (Adventurer mode quickstart)
-# So what's up with the latest features? (Game development)
-# I still can't figure something out even with the docs. Where do I go for help? (Questions and Troubleshooting)
-Right now this box is a bit too much of a hodgepodge and I, at least, feel like it needs to provide a more logical flow from "what the heck is this?" to the full documentation all over the wiki.
-== Will change main page tomorrow pending objections ==
-Ok, I reworked the About page and created, an Installation page, and reworked the tutorials page:
-*[[DF2010:About]]
-*[[DF2010:Installation]]
-*[[User:Ral/Tutorials]]
-The main page has not been changed yet and nothing has been linked. I will change the main page tomorrow if there are no concerns or complaints before then. --[[User:Ral|Ral]] 02:20, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
-:Starting build is no longer a 'basics' page, but a theoretical treatment of putting together a starting build.  Embark is now fulfilling the basics function.  --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 02:15, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
-:Ok, I have taken that into account. --[[User:Ral|Ral]] 02:20, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
-:Changes all now in place. Embark placed in "Playing Dwarf Fortress" and starting build is in "gameplay elements". Embark is also linked to from various noob pages. --[[User:Ral|Ral]] 23:58, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
-== Database dump? ==
-Is there a complete db dump for this wiki, for offline use? Where would I find it? [[Special:Contributions/91.7.160.233|91.7.160.233]] 23:54, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
-this was on the DF reddit somewhere, somebody posted a full dump created with some sort of Perl crawler. I can't remember the post but you can start looking there
-== Stupid advertisments! ==
-The advertisments are blocking my view of pages! I can't click links that are on the very left of the page. Please fix that!
---[[User:Jumbods64|Jumbods64]] 22:50, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
-EDIT: oh wait if i make the text small... hehe heh... sorry.
-== Stupid advertisments! (DOUBLE POST!)==
-DOUBLE POST sorry.
-==The Stop Censorship Banner==
-Can we get this off of the wiki?  This place isn't for political advocacy.  --[[User:Bouchart|Bouchart]] 23:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
-: No.  If this bill passes, I will be unable to host the wiki due to the legal issues involved. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 00:44, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
-:: The bills have been essentially struck down. There's a chance they'll return, but I think the banner doesn't need to be up anymore.--[[Special:Contributions/173.167.163.13|173.167.163.13]] 18:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
-== New version ==
-The main page recognises the new version, but not the new release date. [[Special:Contributions/188.95.42.176|188.95.42.176]] 14:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
-:That's because the release date comes from a different template, which nobody updated. Given that this version is '''not''' save-compatible with 0.31.xx, it's very likely that a new namespace will be created to cover it, so it might be good to wait on updating existing pages. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 14:11, 14 February 2012 (UTC)