Editing v0.31 Talk:Farming

== Farming on Unmuddy Soil! JOY!!!!! ==

Farming now works on unmuddy soil again!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!
:Yes, it is wonderful. However, you ''forgot'' to specify that this works in 0.31.19 and that this does not work in 0.31.18 (and earlier). Also, ''please'' sign your statements and date them with the "Your signature with timestamp" button at the top of the edit window, like this: --[[User:Thundercraft|Thundercraft]] 08:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

== Farming Commands ==

I'm playing DF for the first time. This page is clear on ''how to make plot'' but is ambiguous on commands use to plant seeds. I made an outdoor plot, used "q" to select it, but the list of growable items is not what I expect. I made sure to bring 20 Plump Helmet Spawn with which to start a farm, as well as two dwarves skilled in growing, but there is no where to select Plump Helemts when I farm. What's going on? More keys could be used in describing how to plant. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:96.35.160.255|96.35.160.255]]</small>
:That would be because [[plump helmet]]s are UNDERGROUND crops, not OUTDOOR (or, rather, surface) crops.  Build a farm plot underground, and you'll be able to plant your plump helmets there.  If you want to use your surface farm plot, you'll need surface crops.  The easiest way to get surface crops is to use [[plant gathering]] on the surface.  Although you are right, the paragraph is a bit unclear.  I'll tidy it up. --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 03:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

== General ==

Placing a farm on rock
     Needs Soil or mud
     No Mud for underground farm
     Mud is left by water

Placing a farm on surface soil
    No Mud for underground farm
    Mud is left by water

Placing a farm on mud found in an underground complex
    <<No Error Message>>

So This is either a major bug, or a mechanics change and a minor text inconsistency.[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 22:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

:This is a bug.  You're supposed to be able to farm on soil.  I'll try to track down the forum thread, one moment --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 22:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

:Aha, so saith the Baughn: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=51951.msg1123336#msg1123336
:--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 22:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::Who is but a lowly dabbling SDL coder and has not insight into the game code or Toady's intentions.--[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 15:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Toady confirmed it too, you realize. Twice.--[[Special:Contributions/174.113.156.80|174.113.156.80]] 01:33, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
::::Quote from: Dr. A - "Farm plots built underground (Inside/Dark/Subterranean) on natural soil will not allow planting"
::::Reply from: Toady One - "I'm not sure yet.  I never get a chance to look at it, despite wanting to look at it.  The original idea was to require a soil wall beneath a mudless square for it to be farmable, and if it isn't that way, it's a bug.  Either way, it is somewhat confusing, because you wouldn't be able to farm in one layer of soil.  I'm not sure you should be able to, morally speaking, especially with the underground trees, but it's probably less confusing that way." from http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62202.msg1424098#msg1424098
::::I shall give this some testing over the next few days to see if a farm on top of a soil wall will allow planting of underground crops without being muddied first.--[[User:Malibu Stacey|Malibu Stacey]] 21:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

== Seeds can not be grown on non-soil, non-subterranean tiles ==

I recently attempted to follow the advice in the article, channeling out several tiles near a river, irrigating them, and building a farm plot on the muddied tiles. However, when I tried to set the field to be planted, all seeds (surface AND subterranean) are disabled, and the message "No seeds available for this location" is displayed. The soil layer, as it turns out, was only one tile thick, and even though the tiles are "above ground" (not even indoors yet, I haven't built a roof over them), they are ineligible for any seeds to be planted on... subterranean crops because the tiles are above ground, and surface crops because the floors are mud-covered diorite instead of one of the clay/sand/soil types.

So, be warned... attempting to create an indoor, irrigated surface crop farm will not work if you accidentally channel down to stone. Surface crops will not grow in mud-covered rock, only in soil (mud-covered or otherwise). --[[User:Tatterdemalian|Tatterdemalian]] 22:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:Have same problem... did you dig out the level below your "aboveground" farm? I did (z1 and z2 dug out) and I remember towercaps and the lot can't grow unless they have a floor tiles and wall below (z1 dug out but not z2), perhaps crops follow the same rules? I'll test this.--[[Special:Contributions/99.67.238.66|99.67.238.66]] 05:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
::I just encountered this issue (version 31.04) but in a slightly different context.  I dug out four rooms underground in sand, did *not* dig out the tiles underneath, built 4 farms on the sand without irigating, and then got the message that that there are "No seeds available for this location", despite having just embarked with many seeds.  Maybe I'll try tearing down the farms and irrigating first. --[[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 17:55, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
:::DF2010 requires farms to have mud whether on rock or soil layers. Cheers--[[Special:Contributions/99.67.238.66|99.67.238.66]] 00:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
::::Technically, it’s the bug that requires it (if I’m reading all the information correctly).  It seems that DF 2010 is supposed to allow farms on soil regardless of mud.  (Am I right, or is this actually intended behaviour?)  I had thought that the bug was that you couldn’t build the farms without the mud, but that doesn’t appear to be the case.  You can build the farms just fine, but the code doesn’t appear to “see” any valid seeds to plant after they are built.
::::I tore down my farms (successfully built on soil without mud), flooded the area, and then built them again and sure enough the farms now “see” the seeds I have. --[[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 19:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::I thought that farms not growing without mud underground was a purposeful change on Toady's part. I suppose I assumed that because of how subterranean trees only grow in muddied soil. Also you don't have to have mud, above ground farms accept all the correct seeds if on soil that issn't irrigated. --[[Special:Contributions/99.67.238.66|99.67.238.66]] 22:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
::::::Hmmm.  I thought that the only reason mud was needed for the underground trees was because they were on rock, not soil.  Regardless, after testing it out, here's what I found:
::::::- You can *build* a farm on any soil (above ground or below)
::::::- Only the farm built above ground will "see" any available seeds (assuming no mud)
::::::- You can build an underground farm on soil and muddy the ground *afterward*
::::::- You can build a farm on part muddied ground and part soil and it will be able to "see" available seeds.  HOWEVER, your dwarves will only plant on the muddied part of the farm.
::::::- Water both provides mud *and* washes it away.  If you build an underground room with a hole in the ceiling and mark that hole with a "pond" zone so your dwarves bring water to it and dump the water in the room, you will see piles of mud appear on some of the tiles and be washed off of others (no idea what determines which of the two happen).
::::::And that was the extent of my testing. --[[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 01:47, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

::::::: Finally got around to trying to build a farm on muddied soil above-ground with a natural wall on the next level down. Testing shows that no seeds can be used on such terrain. So for DF2010 above-ground farms must be built on soil (muddied or unmuddied) and underground farms can grow on any terrain as long as the tiles are muddy. Above-ground farms will not work on muddied rock tiles. I'll go ahead and add this to the actual page.--[[Special:Contributions/99.67.238.66|99.67.238.66]] 21:05, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

:::::::: This is simply not true (in 31.18), you can even create an above ground farm on casted obsidian (and microcline and gabbro; I tested those three) after irrigation. And yes, it produces crops. --[[User:ZetaX|ZetaX]] 14:54, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

::::::: ''You can build a farm on part muddied ground and part soil and it will be able to "see" available seeds.  HOWEVER, your dwarves will only plant on the muddied part of the farm.'' - This isn't exactly true. I just found out that if the top left square of the farm doesn't have mud, then NONE of the farm will activate. I muddied my farm plot, but missed two squares in the top left. rebuilt the farm and it didn't work; rebuilt the farm slightly smaller so that the top left corner was muddied and the farm turned on. [[Special:Contributions/71.202.179.67|71.202.179.67]] 19:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

== Merge ==
I don't see why we need a separate page for [[Farm Plot]] and [[Farming]].  Merger anyone? [[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 12:28, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
:Also, labors are typically described in their respective skill page. In this case, [[DF2010:Farmer|Farmer]] --[[User:Eagle0600|Eagle0600]] 13:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
::Both pages exist as full pages in the 40d namespace, in addition to a farmer page.  This suggests that there is sufficient material for all three pages, although someone would need to spend more time reviewing how the topic space was divided in 40d to figure out why. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 13:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

::Farming describes the concept, plant uses, importance, possibilities and caveats; Overview. Farm plot goes right down to 'key-pressing' and 'cursor-moving', that is, details and step-to-step. Ultimately it is an article on a building. I don't recall ever using the page Farm plot, but I think we should keep the 2. Looking over the old versions, I think the distinction should be made clearer, though. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 14:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

:::I agree, but with all the new info and users this approach seems not viable for now. --[[User:Confused|Confused]] 18:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

== Farming Chart ==

[[Image:Df-crops-diagram.png|thumb|200px|General farming flowchart.]]
I found this chart to the right in the 40d farming page. I was just wondering if it is still current, so we can put it in the current page.
:As far as I can tell, yeah, it's still accurate. I haven't run into any changes in this part of the game, and I've always found this chart to be exceedingly helpful... Though a little messy. Perhaps we could do up a cleaner version of it for the new page? --Kydo 07:43, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:: There, how's this? --Kydo 08:28, 17 October 2010 (UTC) [[Image:FarmG2.png|Thumb|200px|Proposed New Version]]
:::There is a similar table in [[DF2010:Crop]]. A table/chart for farming should preferably illustrate the processes of farming and not (re)iterate the specific crops and products. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 12:52, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

::::I didn't even know that page existed! Considering it has a superior version of a chart that was always far more useful han the page it was on, shouldn't it be more readily available? I mean, there's just one off-handed link in the article, and another in the related articles section. --Kydo 15:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

::I'd say that the only improvement old farming process flowchart could utilize is grouping plants, drinks and products that have all options identical into blocks and not just color-coding by type and an arrow to uses. It may be harder to do with partially-overlapping groups though.--[[User:Another|Another]] 13:29, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

== Harvesting ==
Probably it ought to be noted that if your dwarves aren't quick enough to harvest a ripe bit of crop, it will wither and become refuse (happens to me when I set "Only Farmers harvest").--[[User:FleshForge|FleshForge]] 09:52, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
: I gather that's less of a problem if you have at least one dedicated farmer per x# of tiles, but I would like to read a recommendation for how many 'x' should be.[[User:Uzu Bash|Uzu Bash]] 17:52, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
:: That depends on the distance they have to travel from where they spend their spare time, sleep and so on to the farm. If the farms are adjacent to the dining room and bedrooms then a single farmer can manage a lot of tiles as long as that is all he/she does. If the farm is on the other side of the map, it may take many more farmers for the same amount of squares. You have to use trial and error for each setup. --[[User:Axussriddare|Axussriddare]] 15:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

== Indication of buggy behaviour ==

It's been reverted multiple times whenever someone adds the "due to a bug" statement, so I'll state my reason on why this should be made clear: new players. If someone new plays DF, they may think the irrigation process is too complex if they do it first thing. Like many of our first fortresses, farming is supposed to be a long term goal (fortress 1: farm plot built; fortress 2: plump helmet planted; fortress 3: sustainable farming; fortress 4: irrigation done) and forcing it onto them isn't a good idea, considering that it is a bug, and Toady has stated he'll look at it eventually. If nobody comes up with a good reason '''not''' to add this information, I'll re-add it. --[[User:Dree12|Dree12]] 19:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
:Since nobody commented, I'll re-add the bug notice. --[[User:Dree12|Dree12]] 20:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

== Problem with farm plot sending jobs ==

I made a 22 tile farm plot on muddied sand, a single tile in the corner was not muddied. It still let me build the plot, but until I resized the plot to make it not include that tile, my farm plot would not send jobs out.-[[User:Wafl|Wafl]] 21:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

== maximum stack size ==

What is the max size of a crop stack? Does high enough growing skill make potash irrelevant? [[User:Uzu Bash|Uzu Bash]] 17:45, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
:Not sure about 0.31, but back in 40d the maximum crop stack size was 6 (with a lot of luck and a highly skilled farmer), and according to Toady you could boost that all the way to 11 using potash. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:44, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
:: 11? That's ridiculous. That's not even funny.
:::Have anyone confirmed the 4x bonus mentioned in fertilizer section? I've only gotten 2x at most during my short test with fertilizer, though I didn't had any legendary farmers. [[User:AutomataKittay|AutomataKittay]] 07:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

== Harvest Apathy ==

Has anyone encountered a bug wherein your planters go on seeding farm plots, but no one is willing to harvest anything? No one will touch the withered plants either (unless they're designated for dumping). 

I switched between harvest options during different seasons, left plots fallow, rotated crops and so on to no effect. 

Halp?

: You probably accidentally turned on "Dwarves Ignore Food." o-f to re-enable. [[User:Niveras|Niveras]] 02:48, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


::I've done that before in the past, so that was the first thing I checked. They've still got "Dwarves Gather Food". However, a third save/quit just fixed the problem. The only messages in my errorlog.txt are pathing-related. I don't know what the deal was. I'm going to try to reproduce the problem now.

:: I just saw that happen for three seasons in a row after a big Depot run, and noticed that everyone with Farming enabled would put planting ahead in priority when crops were still in the field. I turned some of them off and confined them all to burrow, and they finally caught during the next caravan. [[User:Uzu Bash|Uzu Bash]] 13:23, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

== Attributes ==

Are there any attributes that affect farming? Where in the raws would you check to find out?--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 00:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

== Not all squares being used ==

<blockquote>
Depending on the number of growers and their experience and the rate at which the plant grows, not all squares of large plots may be used
</blockquote>

There is no explanation of why this happens, or how to avoid it. I still have this problem to this day. Do one of the farming skills affect how many tiles of land a dwarf can maintain? Or is this caused by tiles not being muddied? I have over 200 plump helmet spawn, but only 4-5 tiles of my 6x6 grid of farm is being planted in. I am unsure why, inspecting the tiles describes they are all muddied or have a dusting of mud, and they are all the same material (sandy loam).

One way I avoid this is by farming in caverns. I've actually started to use caverns alone because of this suspected bug. Someone please shed some light on this issue, hopefully it's something simple. I know I am not alone, my friend asked me the same question and I was unable to answer him. <small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:RadGH|RadGH]]</small>

:Sounds like one of the squares are LIGHT, that would stop underground crop planting once other part of field's been planted. [[User:AutomataKittay|AutomataKittay]] 17:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

== Potash-optimal plot size ==

Since the formula for potash usage is (1/4 * plot_size +1) rounding down, we can choose the size of a plot to maximize potash payoff.

The optimal rectangular plot is 7x9, with 3.938 squares per unit potash.
If 7x9 gives too much food, try 5x7, 3x9, 3x5, or 1x7. 

If you don't mind non-rectangular farms, then choose the maximum reasonable size and choose the largest size of the form 4n - 1 that is smaller. The maximal plot is size 10*10, so 99 is the best possible.

--[[User:Droid|Droid]] 21:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

== Above/below ground farms ==

Does anyone know which precise square must be considered "above ground" for a farm to permit above ground seeds, or vice versa? what happens to a farm plot which is divided between the two? what happens when a planted subterranean farm is exposed to sunlight?
 edit: did some experimentation. EVERY SQUARE of a farm plot must be considered
 "above ground" for above ground crops to be permitted on it. how annoyance.
--Shortzo 9:39, 21 March 2011 (GMT)