Editing v0.31 Talk:Magma-safe

This article's contents are working under the assumption that the temperature of magma is still 12000 as it was in 40d - given that the [[magma man]]'s FIXED_TEMP is still 12000, this should be a reasonable assumption for now. Once Dtil is updated (or a similar utility is made available), this should be reasonably simple to verify. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 14:56, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I calculated Celsius temperatures from Urist based on two of the known points, and floored the result.  (Rounding to the nearest might be more accurate, but it should be close enough for all practical purposes, and this required less examining of the decimals).  Note that the Magnetite melting temperature is approximately the real magnetite melting temperature - so i imagine most of these are based on real melting temperatures, although i also checked some others (eg, Hematite) whose actual melt temperature is a range (which was consistent, but not useful for real independent verification). 

Question: Why does the layout give preference to Farenheit anyway?  If anything, Celsius should be preferred.  (Actually, Kelvin should be preferred since its the metric unit).

--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 15:20, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:Fahrenheit is the main unit because in-game temperatures (degrees Urist) are equal to degrees Fahrenheit + 9968. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 15:51, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:: I'm assuming these numbers were pulled out of the raws somewhere? You need to verify your assumption about the actual temperature of magma. Someone is apparently reading this page and having problems. The highlights are that he's melting bauxite, obsidian, mica, and nickel doors and screaming at the bugtracker in anger. [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1579#bugnotes] Check the link for more details. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 17:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Given that things made of the same material sometimes melted and sometimes didn't (after being submerged for a season), it seems like something even stranger is going on.  [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 17:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::: Yea, well hard to say right now, his report is rather angry and ranty. I just figured I'd bring it to your attention and we'll figure out what's actually going on here. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 17:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
::::: I've just managed to hack dtil's memory.ini sufficiently to connect it to 0.31.03 and activate the Tile Viewer. Some things are a bit off (e.g. the cursor position is wrong), but it's reporting underground temperatures (open space or solid rock) as 10015, warm stone as 10100, and magma as 12000, ''all'' of which are 100% consistent with 0.28.181.40d. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 18:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Just had a thought - while magma is most definitely temperature 12000, fire snakes look to have a FIXED_TEMP of 14000, which is hot enough to melt just about anything (namely, everything but periclase, dolomite, raw adamantine, and fire imp/dragon materials). Perhaps fire snakes just became a whole lot more dangerous? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::I just want to point out that if the fire snakes are the cause of this, then that is really awesome. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::::The original reporter just pointed out that the raws for OBSIDIAN contain '''two melting points''' - the first one is 13600, which is magma-safe, and the second one is 11818, which is '''not magma-safe''', and that removing the second one causes his obsidian mechanisms to stop melting. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 13:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

==Errors / Unknowns==
Celsius and Fahrenheit are reversed in the table header, and I don't see how to change that. --[[User:The Architect|The Architect]] 04:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
* Fixed it by editting the template, hopefully its only used in this article (I assume it is as its called MS template) --[[User:AKAfreaky|AKAfreaky]] 12:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Does the table reflect a research into all stone RAWs, verifying that these are the only magma-safe ones?
:It does. Unfortunately, it managed to originally miss obsidian having ''two'' melting points (one of which is not magma-safe and happens to be the one used in-game) and nickel silver's melting point having been reduced significantly. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 19:17, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

==Glass==
I've had magma pumps (stacked) with glass components break down every time. Seems to take slightly longer than wood but still rather fast.

--After reading this comment I went and performed extensive testing of glass and my results have shown that green glass is most definitely magma safe.  I submerged a room full of various green glass objects in magma and had a set of green glass pumps circulating the magma via a 3 tall pump stack and even after a few years of continuous running nothing melted or de-constructed. --[[User:Gtmattz|Gtmattz]] 19:50, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

:I am experiencing magma pump deconstruction, but the culprit seems to be that ''the block in a magma pump now <u>must</u> be magma-safe''.  {{Version|0.31.04}}&nbsp;  The corkscrew and pipe can still be glass.  I am attempting to Verify but others should as well.<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 00:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
::In an experiment, I was able to pump magma for a while using pumps made of both green glass and copper, the latter of which is most definitely '''not''' magma-safe. Exactly how long did the pump last before it broke down? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 01:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Between 15 and 30 seconds realtime.  Pump was cobaltite block + green glass screw & pipe.  The pump deconstructed, collapsing all pumps above it in the stack, so I do not know if other pumps were/would have been directly affected.  My further experiments have NOT replicated the deconstruction (except for wooden blocks, as expected).  I am wondering if that's because my tests were made with single pumps.  I intend to build a bunch of pump stacks with magma-unsafe blocks tomorrow.<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 08:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:::I am seeing repeatable deconstruction of pumps built with green glass screws and pipes, and non-magma-safe stone blocks, if they're in the middle of a pump stack.  I have not yet experimented with putting the unsafe-material pumps at the top or bottom of the stack.  I am not seeing problems with glass or metal blocks, even if the metal is not magma-safe.  Savegames on request.<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 21:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

==Emphasis==
I'd like to make a suggestion to have the part with "wooden components will give you hell" in the pump section emphasized. I missed the fine print (to my own error, I'm not telling you this is your fault) and built a wooden pump stack of 120 pumps to bring magma from the sea to my z-6 work area. To my dismay, 18 months of carpentry, architecture and masonry blew a fuse in under 10 seconds. Fortunately I saved beforehand and forcequit afterwards, but perhaps a little more emphasis to that part of the page would be in order to prevent any other idiots from trying the same thing -[[User:Yeti Yeti|Yeti Yeti]] 06:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 30: / Line 30: @@
 :::Between 15 and 30 seconds realtime.  Pump was cobaltite block + green glass screw & pipe.  The pump deconstructed, collapsing all pumps above it in the stack, so I do not know if other pumps were/would have been directly affected.  My further experiments have NOT replicated the deconstruction (except for wooden blocks, as expected).  I am wondering if that's because my tests were made with single pumps.  I intend to build a bunch of pump stacks with magma-unsafe blocks tomorrow.<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 08:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 :::I am seeing repeatable deconstruction of pumps built with green glass screws and pipes, and non-magma-safe stone blocks, if they're in the middle of a pump stack.  I have not yet experimented with putting the unsafe-material pumps at the top or bottom of the stack.  I am not seeing problems with glass or metal blocks, even if the metal is not magma-safe.  Savegames on request.<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 21:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
-:::: I haven't had the patience to play long enough to fool with pumping magma in 0.31 much yet. With how much the magma-safe materials list has changed I sort of assume other things may have changed as well. I'm curious to see what magma will do to a constructed wooden wall for example. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 23:41, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 ==Emphasis==
 I'd like to make a suggestion to have the part with "wooden components will give you hell" in the pump section emphasized. I missed the fine print (to my own error, I'm not telling you this is your fault) and built a wooden pump stack of 120 pumps to bring magma from the sea to my z-6 work area. To my dismay, 18 months of carpentry, architecture and masonry blew a fuse in under 10 seconds. Fortunately I saved beforehand and forcequit afterwards, but perhaps a little more emphasis to that part of the page would be in order to prevent any other idiots from trying the same thing -[[User:Yeti Yeti|Yeti Yeti]] 06:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
-==Not-Magma-Safe Rock Blocks Overheating==
-I built a pump stack with iron corkscrews, glass tubes and a variety of not-magma-safe rock blocks. The pump stack worked for a while, but then the bottommost pump exploded. The rock block disappeared so I assume it's the part that got melted. Once I replaced it with an orthoclase block the pump worked fine... until the 8 above it exploded. So I think it takes a little while but the pumps do overheat.
-:Your experience agrees with my own, mentioned above in the Glass section.  I was waiting for confirmation, and will now update the article.<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 01:03, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
-:Actually I need to do more experimenting.  Q: Can screws and pipes made of non-magma-safe metals be used?  (Non-magma-safe metal blocks are OK, as are glass blocks.)  Q: What, if anything, changes if magma gets on the passable tile of the pump?<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 01:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
-==Obsidian Is Not Magma-Safe==
-I just had an obsidian floor grate melt when magma was passing through it. <sup>16:26, 29 July 2010 86.151.22.110</sup>
-:What version of DF?  One of the bugfixes for DF 0.31.06 was removal of a spurious 2nd melting point for obsidian.  In unmodded DF 0.31.06 and up, obsidian should be magma-safe.<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 00:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
-:Also, what version of DF did you create the fort with?<br/>&mdash;[[User:0x517A5D|0x517A5D]] 00:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
-:: I believe this has been patched out by now, but at one point obsidian had two different values listed as it's melting point. I think this was corrected in a patch, but if not you can find this in your raw files and make the fix yourself in the meantime. --[[User:Doctorzuber|Doctorzuber]] 23:35, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
-== Ice Constructions ==
-Contrary to what it says under "constructions that resist magma", constructed ice floors actually ''do'' melt. However, constructed ice walls hold out just fine; I haven't tested the other constructions yet. [[User:Icelizarrd|Icelizarrd]] 19:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC)