Editing v0.31 Talk:Starting build

==Axe only for weapon==
An axe is really ONLY useful for a weapon, as a log can be used to quickly make one. Even if axes are cheaper now, there is no point in bringing one to chop wood.
:Only if training axes work to chop wood, otherwise it is far easier to take an axe than to make one. --[[User:Eagle0600|Eagle0600]] 09:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
::They do, just tested it
::Wagon = 3 logs = 1 carpenters workshop + 2 logs. Just add a carpenter, and you have two axes already. --[[User:Dree12|Dree12]] 00:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 Only if training axes work to chop wood
:::This is the sort of trivial test editors really should do themselves before posting. And confirmed, they do cut wood. At 17P, its a toss up whether having a weapon in hand (even a wood one) is worth the delay of making a Carpenter's shop and creating one (if probably a higher quality one - which then partially negates its use as a training weapon.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

==Which skills do i need, really==
This section, as the title implies, is not 'which skills would it be nice to have'.  Its 'which skills can i not reasonably avoid using'.  Having avoided any military engagements with numerous fortresses in .40d, no, not even the military qualifies as an essential skill set, no matter how desirable it may be.  Its simply too easy to work around.  Only skills which cannot be avoided or which avoiding leads to incredible contortions to make the fortress run should be listed here, and afaict, that list is complete as of my edit (and was complete the first time I wrote that section).  The only argument that could be made is Mechanic should be *removed*. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 08:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
:Why should Mechanic be removed? They're still used for everything from traps to power! While not many people use weapon traps, if elephants wander into the fort, the only 'safe' way is to use weapon traps. Besides, higher skill means more traps quicker. There are no skills that cause increadible contortions if not brought, really. You start fine with no skills, they train up. Appraiser is the only skill that is hard to train up and causes "incredible contortions" if not brought. So with that suggestion, the section should state that you need Proficient Appraiser on all your dwarves. --[[User:Dree12|Dree12]] 23:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
::First, the suggestion is not what skills you should take, but what skills you will just about always use, barring extreme contortion.
::Second, I think mechanic belongs in the list, because I think using no mechanisms ever is crazy.  But that's a place where there probably are alternative ways of ("successfully") playing that don't involve building a single mechanism ever.  That's why I say an argument could be made to remove the mechanic; not that I am personally making one.
::Third, appraiser is really easy to train actually - whenever a dwarf goes to trade they make appraise checks as soon as you hit the 't' button (or at least they did in .40d - needs confirmation).  They make one appraise check for each item the merchants brought to trade.  So someone with no appraise skill will suddenly be skilled or better just by looking at the goods of a large trade caravan.  (I believe you only get one attempt per caravan, so no xp scumming by rotating all your dwarves through broker for one caravan!)  Of course, until you get enough xp to hit novice at least, you'll have to guess how much to trade for what you want, which is painful.  You will, however, always use it (barring the extreme contortion of never trading).
::Fourth, I _think_ appraiser is already implicity included, since I think its a leader skill.  If not, that entry should be amended to the original text 'broker skills' because appraise is the most relevant of those.
::--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 08:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Think about who will read this article, and why, and what they want to get out of it.  (Or, more accurately, what you , the knowledgeable editors, want to give them, since many won't know what they do want/need out of this article.)
:::"'''Need'''" is almost purely subjective, unfortunately.  Do you "need" a miner? No, they'll train fast enough, esp in soil.  You will always* '''use''' one, but you don't "need" to take one.  Bottom line, you can start with 7 unskilled dwarves - so you don't "need" any skills, right?  Any dwarf can make mechanisms, so you never "need" a mechanic, right? Wrong. 
:::<nowiki>*</nowiki>Challenges and advanced play are not what this article is about. 
:::To me, that subsection is about what the ''starting player'' (1st fortress, 3rd fortress, that ballpark) wants to bring so their fortress will flourish despite the typical newbie flailing - and why.   But what you use and what you "need" are not the same thing.  So, we don't say "You need/don't need Appraiser" (or Mechanic, or etc) - we list the usual, predictable recommendations - Miner, Mason, Appraiser, Brewer, Cook, Grower, Military, etc etc - and say WHY it's suggested you "need" them.  ''"Mechanic - more quickly produces (and places) high quality mechanisms, for weapon traps and created wealth"''.   A quick one-line explanation, and let the player decide based on that.  ''"Fisherdwarf/Ambusher -if you can't get UG crops going, you need creatures to supplement your food"'' - Meh, not for me, but okay. ''(Likewise, some can be listed as why you do NOT need them - "Glassmaker - too easy to train up on "free" sand.")''  This allows diff editor's opinions without a black/white "include/exclude" debate.  More to the point, in the end, only ''experience'' will answer that question for each reader's playstyle, so this is only to give the newbie the confidence and information to make a choice that's better than "Play Now!".
:::Rewrite the intro to that subsection to reflect this reality, put objective pro's/con's for each listing, and undelete anything that has been scratched off the list.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

==Organization==
First, there were too many starting guides in the 40d namespace, so we probably want to spend some time dividing the necessary material among articles in a *rational* manner early rather than having multiple superfluous pages again.  I started a discussion on that [[DF2010 Talk:How to correctly start fortress mode|here]].

Second, this article is trying to fulfill too many functions.  As per the above linked discussion, I think this should be separated into (1) a general starting a fortress page that covers the mechanics of doing so, and indexes the necessary guides, (2) a Quickstart guide for new users with a link to a save from DFFD, (3) a theoretical treatment of starting builds for advanced users, and possibly (4) an Embark Now guide (could possibly just be embedded in the parent page).

As it is, this page covers not only starting builds, but also how to navigate the embark menu (which is really a separate topic entirely, and I would never have thought to look here for it).  It also covers Embark Now, which isn't really a 'build' at all from the user's perspective.

So, we should discuss this before I unilaterally implement such a far-reaching modification.  But this page is a mess because its trying to do too much.

--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 10:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

:For what it's worth, I completely agree. Having a bunch of redundant guides that have too much on them is going to confuse people, much like the 40d ones did, and that is the opposite of what having guides for beginners is intended to do. The first three guides you suggested should have pages, and that should be everything. Even an Embark Now guide could be included as part of something else where it would make more sense, not as its own page. --[[User:AzureShadow|AzureShadow]] 12:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

::We have long needed an article dedicated to the Embark menu (and some of its sub-menus as well.) Breaking this beast up would not be a bad idea, but "Play Now" I think contrasts/fits well with the custom option, and is fairly brief (and would almost be a stub by itself? Meh, maybe not.) Putting "Play Now" on a separate article would isolate it from players who would never choose it and are only interested in customizing their own build.

 (1) a general starting a fortress page
 (2) a Quickstart guide for new users with a link to a save from DFFD
::Problem is we already have so many "how to start the game" guides. This/those would have to be rationalize with each other, losing the redundant parts. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:09, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

:::When i gave that list, I had intended it as a full list of necessary pages, not just breaking this one up, but merging the valid parts from the other existing articles (or, since this is a new version, the appropriate themes from those articles and redirect their DF2010 namespace page names to the relevant articles).  I did just read your points over at [[DF2010:How to correctly start fortress mode]], and I'm not sure I think we need quite as many different pages as you do, but I'll think about it and post something before I do anything too crazy.  --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 21:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-__TOC__
-==Starting Region: Flatlands==
-"Fewer elevations means fewer exploitable z-levels" - true, but with at least 30 z-levels to play around with before you're likely to hit something dangerous this seems a slightly irrelevant point.--[[User:Nimblewright|Nimblewright]] 17:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 ==Axe only for weapon==
 An axe is really ONLY useful for a weapon, as a log can be used to quickly make one. Even if axes are cheaper now, there is no point in bringing one to chop wood.
@@ Line 27: / Line 22: @@
 ==Organization==
-First, there were too many starting guides in the 40d namespace, so we probably want to spend some time dividing the necessary material among articles in a *rational* manner early rather than having multiple superfluous pages again.  I started a discussion on that [[v0.31 Talk:How to correctly start fortress mode|here]].
+First, there were too many starting guides in the 40d namespace, so we probably want to spend some time dividing the necessary material among articles in a *rational* manner early rather than having multiple superfluous pages again.  I started a discussion on that [[DF2010 Talk:How to correctly start fortress mode|here]].
 Second, this article is trying to fulfill too many functions.  As per the above linked discussion, I think this should be separated into (1) a general starting a fortress page that covers the mechanics of doing so, and indexes the necessary guides, (2) a Quickstart guide for new users with a link to a save from DFFD, (3) a theoretical treatment of starting builds for advanced users, and possibly (4) an Embark Now guide (could possibly just be embedded in the parent page).
@@ Line 45: / Line 40: @@
 ::Problem is we already have so many "how to start the game" guides. This/those would have to be rationalize with each other, losing the redundant parts. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:09, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
-:::When i gave that list, I had intended it as a full list of necessary pages, not just breaking this one up, but merging the valid parts from the other existing articles (or, since this is a new version, the appropriate themes from those articles and redirect their v0.31 namespace page names to the relevant articles).  I did just read your points over at [[v0.31:How to correctly start fortress mode]], and I'm not sure I think we need quite as many different pages as you do, but I'll think about it and post something before I do anything too crazy.  --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 21:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
+:::When i gave that list, I had intended it as a full list of necessary pages, not just breaking this one up, but merging the valid parts from the other existing articles (or, since this is a new version, the appropriate themes from those articles and redirect their DF2010 namespace page names to the relevant articles).  I did just read your points over at [[DF2010:How to correctly start fortress mode]], and I'm not sure I think we need quite as many different pages as you do, but I'll think about it and post something before I do anything too crazy.  --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 21:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
-==Seasonal Food/Booze Consumption==
-Just ran a side-test to see if the old numbers held true. Took starting 7 and 100 booze and 100 alcohol, walled them up and let them cook. At the Summer pause they had consumed 14 food and 28 booze - 2 food/4 booze each. At Autumn pause they had consumed a total of 28 food/60 booze (2/ and 4.3/). (caravan bypassed). At Winter they had consumed another 17 food (55 remaining) and 30 booze (10 remaining) - which puts them at about 2 1/7 and 4 2/7 - but there were 2 over-indulgers in the group, so that might be the 1/7 and 2/7 right there. Bottom line, it's still very close to 2 food and 4 booze/.)
-(The really interesting thing is how many migrants showed up while they were holed up, in the next section...)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 20:06, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
-==Supplies and Early Migrant Expectation==
-While running the above experiment, I had less than 3000 created wealth and had a combined 13 (yes, thirteen) migrants show up over  Summer and Autumn. Only 3-4 showed up immediately upon any announcement, so they must have snuck in in two waves each season, ~3 and then ~3 more later each time. This influx would have seriously messed with any expectations/projections for embark supplies before the first caravan - which, btw, didn't show up until about a week before Winter.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 20:06, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
-There is something odd about the way migrants are calculated now, I've had seasons where I produce little to nothing and get many more migrants than seasons where I have my stonecrafter working 24/7.[[User:Hexrei|Hexrei]]
-==Magma vent, chasm, etc==
-There are multiple references left to these features in this article, are they even in 2010 in the same way they were in 40d?[[User:Hexrei|Hexrei]] 18:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
-== Elfhater's Strategy ==
-It seems to me that Elfhater's Strategy is better suited to the [[Make your own weapons]] page.  Similarly, that page ought to be linked in its place.  Any objections?  --[[User:Jwest23|Jwest23]] 14:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
-== Student / Teacher ==
-Hello, this my first post so I hope I'm typing this alright. :D
-I suggest adding a mention of having one dwarf start with Teacher 5 and Student 5, to prepare him to be military trainer.
-You could even go as far as to have a Miner/Armour user, and a Mason/Dodger and so forth, so he can quickly absorb those skills and train them to everyone in his squad, though the Teacher/Student dwarf also works without this.
-"Dangerrooms" work, but feel too much like cheating, so this setup would offer a legitimate alternative.
-[[User:Naros|Naros]] 17:29, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
-== Page Overhaul ==
-I've started reorganizing this page to remove a bunch of cruft that didn't belong here, and to focus it more towards being a discussion about what the decisions are you make and what you make those decisions on rather than covering everything from mechanics to specific choices.  The [[Embark]] page is going to cover mechanics and I am similarly reworking it to remove the guide material at the same time.
-This is not intended to be a new player guide because it will lack specificity and be about general themes in putting together a starting party.  However, it would be worthwhile to link new player guides at the top so a player who finds their way here and wants that can be redirected there.  Similarly, if other pages exist besides this and Embark that cover similar material, let me know so i can rework those pages as well (or not as appropriate) and potentially crosslink everything so people can find the page whose purpose matches what they're looking for.
-This is a work in progress, there's a lot of text that needs to be removed or cleaned up yet, but i think i got the most egregious nonsense off this page.  The organization is still atrocious, I'm working on it.  The [[Sample Starting Builds]] page is an abomination, and should possibly just be deleted, but I didn't want to do anything so drastic without consensus.  At least by making it and putting a link at the bottom of the page, maybe people will be inclined to stop vandalizing this page with it.
---[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 10:18, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
-:Ok, the skills section is in pretty good shape.  The Items section needs work.  A lot of work.  (The original page basically had the same section repeated twice in two different places).  Fortunately, its a much shorter section.  I'll get back to it later today. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 12:31, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
-:Its in an acceptable state now.  I can't believe anyone rated this article as Exceptional before, it was poorly organized, repetitive, and had a lot of cruft.  Probably needs to be re-evaluated now. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 02:36, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
-::Free Equipment for Ambusher
-::I've ran the following tests for DF 0.31.25:
-:::Mason 5, Ambusher 5 = no freebies.
-:::Mason 4, Ambusher 5 = freebies.
-:::Appraiser 5, Ambusher 5 = freebies.
-:::Axedwarf 5, Ambusher 5 = freebies.
-:::Record Keeper 5, Ambusher 5 = freebies.
-:::Organizer 5, Ambusher 5 = freebies.
-::It was always 4 items of clothing/armour that were added in addition to 30-40 bolts, a quiver and a crossbow.
-::So I removed the verify tag and changed the text.
-::Though I did find out something new; if there's snow where you embark, you also get those same four items of clothing for every one of your dwarves. Not sure if they're always made of cloth, or sometimes made of leather. Ran out of time for testing. :)
-::--[[User:Naros|Naros]] 09:30, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
-:I rated this with the script. I think the only thing keeping it from being masterwork is the presence of the {{verify}} tags. --[[User:Ral|Ral]] 19:16, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
-==Plus key doesn't change anything==
-::I try to press + to add points to a skill, and nothing happens! +/- works in other menus, but not the skill/items to take page. WHAT?
-Email me at ''(redacted)'' if you have any help. Thx! [[Special:Contributions/24.217.37.117|24.217.37.117]] 00:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
-:::[[40d:Laptop_keyboard]] might help.  I've removed your email address to save you from spambots. [[User:Bognor|Bognor]] 02:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)