v0.34 Talk:Minecart logic

Double-carted power-to-signal converter

"The light green gear is still engaged but no power is being sent to it because the dark green is off." - Why is this the case? Is the pressure plate linked to the dark green gear assembly in addition to the intended output machines? If so, why is this not stated in the article? --Quietust 10:52, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• • Power is coming in on the bottom gear, so when it is disengaged by the pressure plate it doesn't matter that the top gear is engaged, or not, no power can be transmitted up the axel to activate the roller. It made sense to me... but that whole area needs re-writing to remove the personal voice anyway, I guess. --TinyPirate 10:57, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this more of a latch? If i understand it correctly, it must be switched off with a signal and won't turn off when power to the gear is cut. --Larix (talk) 17:57, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

PS: if i haven't got it completely wrong, it's simply a NOT gate, but this fact is obscured by the complicated operation. The proof of a Power-to-Signal generator is deconstructing an axle or other powered component so power connection is lost without signals: this should turn the device off. --Larix (talk) 01:55, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

MPL

I added a mention of the stuff i've worked on and added a link to my user page. Edits and suggestions for improvement are welcome.--Larix (talk) 17:59, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

ASCII diagrams

Planning a bit of a redesign, including implementing ASCII diagrams (which I believe are preferred? but correct me if mistaken). Problem: anybody know where I can find that minecart character? better yet, anybody willing to just paste it into a response for me? Vasiln (talk) 04:50, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

It's at character table somewhere (the variable-width font makes it hard to tell, especially on mobile, so I'm not sure exactly what it is).

Also, I've been working on a diagram replacement, which will hopefully be up soon once Briess gets a chance to deploy it. It has more syntax features and actually displays things in the DF font. :) (feel free go ahead and set up diagrams, though - I feel like diagrams are more efficient than a series of small pictures). —Lethosor (talk) 12:50, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay, according to the raws it's 254, which looks like a square to me on the table (and here): ■

■

also looks like a square, so I'm not really sure if that's right or not. —Lethosor (talk) 13:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Never mind, it has [INVERTED_TILE]. Just change the colors and it should work. —Lethosor (talk) 13:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much!

I should have mentioned how to do background colors - currently they work like this: [fg][bg]x

So a minecart would be [#000][#ccc]■, which produces:

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(Minecarts don't display very well with the diagram font, unfortunately.)

I also made a new parser function: {{#char}}. It converts a number into the corresponding character, so {{#char:254}} produces ■. Hopefully it's easier than copying things from the character table individually. —Lethosor (talk) 19:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Will get it nicer over next few days. Iterative process :)Vasiln (talk) 01:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Examples

I agree that the examples were a bit lengthy, but maybe we could move them to a subpage (e.g. DF2012:Minecart logic/Examples) instead of removing them entirely. I think some people would still prefer to have examples available somewhere, even if they're not on this page. —Lethosor (talk) 00:47, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

The examples I got rid of were all on bloodbeard's thread, which is still linked at the bottom of the page. Other logic pages handle the potential for variation similarly: linking to threads and user pages. Of course, that doesn't mean it's ideal. I believe that when this page is fleshed out a bit more (which I will do over the next week) it won't seem as severe. Summary: that might be a good idea, but I think we should wait a bit before deciding?Vasiln (talk) 01:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

That's fine with me (I must have missed the links at the bottom). I did think this page needed reworking, so go right ahead. :) —Lethosor (talk) 02:56, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Coming along nicely. I think the examples give a good impression of the basic doctrines of minecart logic. I'd suggest a better design for the powered Path-Switch example:

===Roller-switched NOR===

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Using your basic design, but without causing derailing/rerailing (diagonal movement forced by perpendicular rollers) and thus cutting out the need for restricting walls to the east. Rollers working against the cart's movement direction instantly revert it, and corners, even on the same tile as the roller, redirect the cart without issue.

When the rollers are off, the cart will still pass in a straight line without any complications. This switch design is somewhat unintuitive, since it uses a roller direction apparently opposed to any desired output directions, but it's the most compact and well-behaved switch design.--Larix (talk) 05:16, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I've put it in. It looks like an AND to me, although it is a bit of a puzzle, thanks to easily conflated power/signal and the weird behavior of rollers (deactivate-on-open). I'm not perfectly confident, so if I'm mistaken, feel free to correct the page. And as a further comment, there are still a few principles that may need demonstration. I am unsure if any more belong. Increasingly, I say to myself, "You could do that, but why?" about further techniques. Vasiln (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I tend to prefer articles that stay reasonably compact. Very long articles can become difficult to navigate (cf. the Minecart article, which has grown so large it could really use splitting up). This article is probably nowhere near this point yet, but i'd be careful about further expansion. As it stands, the article shows the main realistically applicable doctrines of minecart usage in logic and gives good explanations of how they work. There are other techniques, but those that i know of are for now solidly in the realm of stupid dwarf tricks.

And you're absolutely right: by default, when using un-toggled gears to run the rollers, this works as an AND gate. Terminology in DF logic is always difficult to keep transparent, particularly mechanical logic is prone to confusion with its toggle rules, and powered minecarts inherit some of that.--Larix (talk) 16:28, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

General Comments

Hi all. Wow, this page has come along brilliantly! I'm wondering why the ramp-based PSC got canned from the page? here's the link - it's simpler and cheaper to build than the ones on the page and just as effective. Maybe I'm missing something? :D TinyPirate (talk) 08:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello. I can't speak for VasilN, but the purpose of the re-work was to show the variety of minecart logic, through exemplary, not necessarily the best circuits. So i guess while your PSC is small, cheap and easy to build, he didn't find it particularly "typical" of its discipline. The first shown design is probably the most "typical" example of a cart-and-roller PSC and also demonstrates the versatility of combining mechanical logic with minecarts, since it can be reconfigured not only into a repeater (can be done with all PSCs) but also into an edge detector.

Bloodbeard's Minecart Logic thread is linked from the bottom of the page, as first "further reading" suggestion. --Larix (talk) 11:21, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

No worries, makes sense! TinyPirate (talk) 07:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)