Editing Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Copyrights

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== Licensing ==

[[image:Fileupload.png|thumb|right]] 

The message at the bottom of the df wiki says that all content is available under GFDL & MIT. I wonder if that is really true.

This copyright page showed up in 2010. I don't know when the warning below the edit box appeared. So what is the status of older contributions?

The status of images uploaded here is also in question, since the file upload screen allows all kinds of licensing options. This particular screenshot is licensed as "Found the image somewhere." Basically everything in the tileset repo lacks detailed licensing information. Despite that, people claim that they are public domain and safe to use in video game development.

What are your thoughts? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 16:49, 9 December 2018 (UTC)


:This current notice dates from 2010, but it is likely that other notices were present prior to that--copyright concerns on wiki content has been a known issue since before Wikipedia launched in 2001. Even without obvious copyright notices, contributions to a wiki can reasonably be expected to be unencumbered. But debating wiki copyrights is a rather pointless academic exercise unless and until somebody actually has a complaint. If somebody were to complain, it would be fairly straight-forward to remedy the situation by removing content as necessary to comply with law.

:The variety of image-licensing options is a rather new addition--and most are quite reasonable for use on the wiki. The "Found somewhere" option is likely intended to catch (and initiate review of) questionable images, instead of forcing users to hide them under other licenses. Images which violate or appear to violate copyright are removed.

:I would suggest that the bottom-of-page copyright notice be amended to state "Content is available under GFDL & MIT unless otherwise stated." to reflect images may have different licensing.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 21:59, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

::The thing that brought this on is that I saw the tileset repo recommended as a resource for people developing roguelikes. Is there an expectation that anything someone finds on the wiki will be legally unencumbered? Should there be?  [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 22:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

:::"The idea that typefaces (rather than fonts, which are computer software) cannot be copyrighted in the United States is black letter law. 37 C.F.R. § 202.1(e). Under U.S. law, typefaces and their letter forms or glyphs are considered utilitarian objects whose public utility outweighs any private interest in protecting their creative elements."[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protection_of_typefaces] So it would appear [[tileset repository|tilesets]] are fair game (under U.S. law) regardless of the wiki's stance on copyright. 

:::Toward your more general questions, I would say there is a definite presumption that all the ''text'' on the wiki is available under the GFDL. Images are another matter (which is why we have a license-selector box on the upload page). If anyone is particularly concerned about their images being used, they would be well-served by ensuring that their files' licensing information is set correctly.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 00:41, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

::::That sounds promising. So apparently a "font" can be copyrighted, but a "typeface" can't. What? Is a tileset a typeface, or is it a font? Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typeface suggests] that "typeface" is a synonym for "font family," which is another term to chase.
::::[https://stason.org/TULARC/business/copyright/3-9-Are-fonts-copyrighted.html This] provides the following definitions for the terms:

:::::First, let's distinguish between a font and a typeface. A typeface is 
:::::the scheme of letterforms (which is really what you're probably talking 
:::::about), and the font is the computer file or program (or for that matter, 
:::::a chunk of metal) which physically embodies the typeface.

::::A tileset is definitely a computer file. Which I guess makes it a copyrightable font? It later goes on to say that bitmapped fonts are not copyrightable, which would make our tilesets probably fine. This is getting kind of subtle. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 04:04, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

::::Your same wikipedia article has a reference to a copyright office [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/The_Copyright_Office%2C_Policy_Decision_on_Copyrightability_of_Digitized_Typefaces.pdf notice] which talks about "digital typefonts" also being immune to copyright, but defines them as "a bitmapped digital representation of an actual analog typeface design." This doesn't seem to be saying all bitmaps are fine.
::::I want to conclude that someone trying to reuse these for their own software should talk to a lawyer about it rather than hoping it works out.[[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 04:30, 10 December 2018 (UTC)


::::::As I understand it, a "typeface" is a collection of letter symbols, while a "font" is *computer code* for generating letter symbols. The *computer code* is copyrighted (like other computer code), not the letter symbols. Tilesets are not distributed as computer code, but as an image of letter symbols, making them a "typeface". But certainly one should not rely on an off-hand comment in a talk-page discussion on DFwiki for legal analysis.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 22:11, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I also saw something like that in the wikipedia article. I'd go down another rabbit hole chasing down whether "is it computer code?" is the real legal standard and whether bitmap images can qualify as "computer code," but I think it has become pretty clear that this area is complicated enough to need an expert opinion, and neither of us is an expert :) [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] ([[User talk:VengefulDonut|talk]]) 01:14, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

::I suggest that the copyright notice at the bottom of the page is changed to "Text is available under GFDL & MIT", to make it more explicit that the text is free to use but images may use different licenses. For reference, English Wikipedia uses similar copyright notice. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 08:24, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

== Images and copyright infringement ==   
There seem to be many images used on this wiki without permission from the author. For example, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:Giant_preview.jpg this image of a giant] is taken from VegasMike on [https://www.deviantart.com/vegasmike/art/Thump-189089464 Deviantart], even though the he hasn't released it under a Creative Commons licence or similar. Another example, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:Ogre_with_goblin.png this image of an ogre with a goblin] is stolen from Wildweasel339 on [https://www.deviantart.com/wildweasel339/art/Goblin-Ogre-179846688 Deviantart].

A lesser problem with some images is missing copyright information. For example, [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:Zombie_dwarf.jpg this zombie dwarf] is made by DioMahesa on [https://www.deviantart.com/diomahesa/art/Commission-Advanced-Races-1-626407562 Deviantart], and he does release it with Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License. However, on this wiki, he is not attributed at all, even though the license demands attribution.

I suggest that blatantly copyright infringing images are deleted. The images with missing copyright information should be fixed. Also, whenever someone wants to upload an image to this wiki, they should make sure that the image in question is released under Creative Commons license or similar and that the relevant attribution is made on this wiki. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 09:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

:I agree, this is not passable. I have a DeviantArt account, so I am thinking of reaching out to these creators. What do you think of the following message: "Hello, I am an editor of the Dwarf Fortress Wiki. It has come to my knowledge that another user uploaded this artwork to the DF Wiki for use in one of its articles, likely with incorrect license information. Is this something you gave permission for? Otherwise it will be removed."? I feel an apology should be fitted in there somehow, but I am not sure how. This message would be either sent as a PM with a link to the relevant artwork included, or written as a comment on that artwork's page. 

:I also noticed during my initial search ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?search=%22Art+by%22&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1 looking for articles containing "Art by"]) that many of these pictures were uploaded by user [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]. It might be a good idea to investigate that lead further, contacting them for explanation, and looking for more pictures by what they have uploaded. If they are indeed a repeat offender, it should also be taken up with forum administration. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 21:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

::I left a message at [[User_talk:Zippy]], hopefully they will read this discussion and tell us what they think.

::Reaching out to the artists is a great idea. However, taking a look at the files [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=&limit=500&contribs=user&target=Zippy&namespace=6&tagfilter=&start=&end= uploaded by Zippy], there are lots of images, which means there are also lots of artists to contact. In some cases, I can't find the original artist, <s>for example [[:File:Dragonprev.png]]</s> (edit: the art is from Olivtree on [https://www.deviantart.com/olivitree/art/Wingless-dragon-489240506 DeviantArt], I didn't notice the attribution on the article). I think those images should also be deleted as a potential copyright violation.

::I noticed that in many cases, the artist is attributed on the article where the image is used, but not on the file page itself. For example [[:File:Giant_walrus.jpg]]. This is a minor concern compared to other issues, but I think that the attribution should be on the file page too. I think it would also be a good idea to link to the origin of the art work at the file page, even if it not required by the license, since it would make it easier for future wiki-editors to figure out where the image is from and if it has been uploaded with a permission from the artist or not.

::If others agree with these proposals, I volunteer to go through images and either fix the attribution and other small mistakes or mark the file for deletion. Only administrators can actually delete files on this wiki, right? [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 08:32, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

:::Correct. Feel free to tag anything necessary with {{tl|delete}} and I can take care of it. &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 15:50, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

:::As far as I know, attributing in the file is what is important, doing it in the article is more of a nicety. Though I am very much a layman when it comes to copyrights, I believe it is a worse error to attribute an incorrect license than none at all, and that is (presumably) done in the file info with e.g. the Creative Commons license mentioned above, but not in the articles.

:::If there are many artists to contact, then I am willing to take that on, though I imagine it will take several days, if not longer. The messages should be mostly identical from artwork to artwork, which should cut down the time. At least that goes for artists that are easily found via attribution in the article, images where they can't should be taken note of somehow, but they will be trickier (if they exist). I will also not be able begin until tomorrow, for personal scheduling reasons, but if this gap allows for Zippy or a third (fourth?) person to speak their mind before that is only a positive. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 19:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

::::I'm not going to start going through images until this weekend. You mentioned earlier that you would contact the artists on DeviantArt either via PM or a comment on the artwork. I think a public comment would be better, since that way the answer would be public as well. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 06:10, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

:::::Here is a first report, covering all images from 2020-2021 shallowly, and a few in depth. I have prioritized the ones that had a credited artist, though it did not turn out as simple as every credited artist being on DeviantArt, or even being the original creator. These were also in minority, out of the ~100 images (counting file edits, but some files had been edited multiple times, meaning somewhat fewer images) there were only 10 that were attributed to a specific artist, discounting those clearly made by Zippy such as [[:File:Creepy_crawler.png]] and [[:File:Feather_tree.png]]. In the cases where I could find the original artist, and the work was published on DeviantArt, I posted a comment saying approximately 
:::::''"Hello, I am an editor of the Dwarf Fortress Wiki. It has come to my knowledge that another user uploaded this artwork to the DF Wiki for use in one of its articles, likely with incorrect license information (flagging it as being under Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike 3.0). Is this something you gave permission for? Otherwise it will be removed. Said user has seemingly done this for many artworks, though we (another user and I, neither being wiki admins) are still investigating to see the full extent."'' (the exact comments vary, as e.g. the claimed license did. they can be seen in the DA links below, being public). In any case, these are the ones with credited artists uploaded during 2020-2021:
* [[:File:Injured_dwarf.jpg]], used in [[injury]]: credits ADHadh, the original artwork is [https://www.deviantart.com/adhadh/art/Injured-Dwarf-808934596 this on DeviantArt].
* [[:File:Infected_ghoul.jpg]], used in [[infected ghoul]]: credits Jeff Butler, who turns out to be a comic artist. The original artwork is [https://jeff-butler.com/portfolio/infected-ghoul-2-creature-design-photoshop-2010/ here on his website]. I have not contacted him.
* [[:File:Nightmare_creature.jpg]], used in [[nightmare]]: credits jlcseiles, who turns out to be John L C Seiles, [https://twitter.com/JLCSeiles/status/820662898196410368/photo/1 this tweet being the art source]. I have not contacted him.
* [[:File:Dwarf_justice.png]], used in [[justice]]: credits gustav_black, but this seemingly is just a redditor who has at some time used/posted the image. I could not find the original source, even using reverse search engines.
* [[:File:Criminal dwarf.jpg]], used in [[criminal]]: credits Terry Colligan, likely because of [https://www.pinterest.com/pin/382876405791706468/ this Pinterest post], but he is not the creator. Using reverse image search it turns out the image is older than that, the original artist being KaRzA-76, [https://www.deviantart.com/karza-76/art/Dwarf-34432414 this being the original source (on DeviantArt)]. 
* [[:File:Dwarf_thinking.jpg]], used in [[critical thinker]]: credits Falisia, the original artwork is [https://www.deviantart.com/falisia/art/Dwarf-Thinking-734399136 this on DeviantArt].
* [[:File:Dwarf_horse.jpg]], used in [[mount]]: credits alarie-tano, the original artwork is [https://www.deviantart.com/alarie-tano/art/The-Riding-Dwarf-117956549 this on DeviantArt].
* [[:File:Dwarf_builder.jpg]], used in [[carpenter]]: credits RDMP, but before I figured out who that was I found the original artist to be Jon Hodgson, the original artwork is [https://www.deviantart.com/jonhodgson/art/Carpenter-Dwarf-162792139 this on DeviantArt].
* [[:File:Dwarf_ranger.jpg]], used in [[ranger]]: credits Felipe Pagliuso, the original artwork is found [https://www.artstation.com/artwork/A9DX6o here on Artstation] (scrolling down a little). I have not contacted him.
* [[:File:Desert_turtle_man.png]], used in [[desert tortoise man]]: credits BryanSyme, the original artwork is [https://www.deviantart.com/bryansyme/art/Kryt-766370965 this on DeviantArt].

:::::The other pictures are photographs (some of Wikipedia-quality, so they may be from there), art with no credited artist, a few that are self-licenced, and a few that claimed a license had been given to use on the DF Wiki only. There are also a fair amount of screenshots, both of DF and utilities. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 20:47, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

::::::Thank you for your work, it seems you're faster than I am. I also noticed that the artworks had been uploaded here with licenses not present on the original DeviantArt page, which makes me suspicious of any license claimed by Zippy. Can we trust them when they say that the art has been uploaded with right to use on DF Wiki alone?

::::::John Seiles' "nightmare" is also available on [https://www.artstation.com/artwork/YxJwb his Artstation page], but there too is no mention of any license. 

::::::In some cases, the uploaded art is used in a commercial game. Carpenter is used in Paizo's Kingmaker, dwarf ranger in Trudvang Legends boardgame, and [[:File:Deity_preview.jpg]] (on this wiki on page [[deity]]), is [https://www.deviantart.com/jasonengle/art/The-Faceless-652570938 JasonEngle's art] made for Monte Cook Games Invisible Sun. I'm pretty certain neither Paizo nor Monte Cook Games have given rights to use art from their games on this wiki.

::::::I'm sure you know this, but photographs are protected by copyright just as traditional art is. I'll go over those as well when I have time.

::::::Given the responses you have already received, I marked [[:File:Injured_dwarf.jpg]] and [[:File:Desert_turtle_man.png]] for deletion. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 07:18, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

WRT Mr. Butler; someone needs to bell the cat anyway, as seems to be apparent - how about I do that? Boilerplate'll need a little modding, though. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 09:41, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

To prevent this talk page from getting too cluttered, I created [[User:Tanamoril/Copyright_violations]] to keep track of the images which potentially violate copyright. I copied the list by [[User:Voliol]] there too, and I encourage others to update the list if needed. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 17:15, 19 November 2021 (UTC)


....and, re [[infected ghoul]], we have a removal order, gentlemen, but also another mark-down for the "game use" section: ''Call of Duty'' character concept art. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:49, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

:Indeed I know photographs are under copyright. It is just that none of them yet have credited the photograph, so they have not been prioritized. 

:I too am suspicious of Zippy's copyright claims, with more oversights being dug up and only one artist yet claiming they maybe allowed the use. Asking those artists who were allegedly asked will also be part of the process. 

:In any case I wrote another batch of artworks where some artist had been credited, covering now the 200 latest uploads of Zippy (some way into Nov 2019, the most productive month of theirs, I believe), on the new list article. Or so I thought. Does the wiki require the user whose name is on the page to approve an edit before it is shown, or did my brain glitch and cause me to close the page before submitting? That would be a shame, though I do still have all links, and half of it written down saved in a .txt file. 

:[https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/744015340/4953524865 One of these artists said they were willing to have the art on the wiki given proper credit], and [https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/651272049/4953524511 another that they were unsure about the licenses they might have given]. I suggest we suggest the "permission to use only on the DF Wiki" license, as I believe it is the least complicated one both for the artist and the wiki editor. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 19:54, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

::You should be able to edit the page, maybe try it again? I'll wait until you have published your list until I go through more art.

::Good to hear that some artists allow their artwork to be used on this wiki. I agree with your license proposal. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 05:50, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion for 'sole use of DF wiki' licence...to whom, exactly? Lethosor? Briess? Also, just checking before I post an art call on the forums, but Meph's recent takedown of their tileset prompted this, at least in part, right? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 19:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

:This issue has been gnawing my mind for at least a year, but I just never dared to do anything about it. Yes, the controversy regarding Meph's tileset was what finally made me start this discussion. If I'd decided to talk sooner, we'd have less work to do, I guess. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 19:33, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

::Last time I must have clicked the "cancel" button instead of publish. Said batch is now on the list page.

::Good point about the 'sole use of DF wiki' licence. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Permission_from_license_selector The Wikipedia editors do not approve of their corresponding license], though part of that has to do with Wikipedia-specific policies, which may not apply to the DF Wiki. I'm also unsure how the MIT and GFDL licenses mesh with this, what is "all your contributions" exactly on the [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Copyrights|project page]]; are files included, or just text? Where is the formal definition for the 'sole use of DF wiki' license? 
::In any case, should I wait with suggesting any license before we have reached a consensus? Of course I can forward this information to the artists as well, so contact is kept during that time. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 23:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
:::Sorry it took me so long to respond here, my internet was not working. A lot of these images did have the licenses on the sites where I found them. And I *did* ask a lot of these people for permission to use a lot of them - sometimes on DA, but usually on Reddit by the original creators. Some of those images were already being used on MANY other wikis before I found them, so I stupidly assumed they were free to use, since these were images that were on those wikis for over 4-5 years. How many people have said anything about using their stuff here? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 00:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
::::Thank you for your response. I believe you have acted in good faith. However, as you can see, there are many issues, all artwork has to be investigated anyway.
::::[https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/808934596/4953331738 Here] are some [https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/766370965/4953339556 responses] by the [https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/744015340/4953524865 artists] who have [https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/733522446/4953521856 been] contacted.
::::If you want to help with this project, could you please try to find the links to where you originally got the art from? It would be especially helpful if you could identify the source of the art [[User:Tanamoril/Copyright_violations|on this page]] under the heading "Unknown original artist".[[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 05:44, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
::::[[User:Zippy]], here is an example of problems with a file you recently uploaded: [[:File:Red-currant.jpg]]:
::::* You say that the image is from Inhabitat website, which is [https://inhabitat.com/for-perennial-fruit-gardens-berries-are-the-way-to-grow/red-currant/ this site], right?
::::* You claim that the license is CCA Share-Alike 3.0, but I cannot find any mention of that on the website. Where did you get this license from? Only copyright information I can find on Inhabitat is "© 2005-2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba", which definitely does not allow usage of that photo on this wiki. If the license is on the website and I missed it, I apologize.
::::* The author of the image is actually [https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/red-currants-garden-115460176 Tatiana Volgutova]. Given that she is selling her photographs through Shutterstock, I doubt she would be happy about this wiki using the photos, especially without prior permission. Furthermore, since [https://www.shutterstock.com/license Shutterstock license] is non-transferable, Inhabitat cannot give permission to use the photograph, if they indeed got the image from Shutterstock.
::::[[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 07:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
:::About the MIT and GFDL licenses: there is some old discussion on that issue on this very talk page. I suggest that the copyright notice at the bottom of the page is changed to "Text is available under GFDL & MIT", to make it more explicit that the text is free to use but images may use different licenses. For reference, English Wikipedia uses similar copyright notice.[[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 05:44, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::I will begin contacting these artists right away. I feel terrible and will do everything I can to make this right. I'll even up my art skills to hopefully replace most of the images with my drawing. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 07:18, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Just [https://www.deviantart.com/olivitree/art/Wingless-dragon-489240506| jumped on Olivitree's back about this, since neither of you did] - let alone Zippy, you're not the only DeviantArt account holder around here, Tanamoril! :D [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:39, 21 November 2021 (UTC)


I'm working on a proposal for an improved set of guidelines on image uploading. The [[DF:Community Portal#I|current policy]] regarding images on the Community Portal page touches very little on what is and isn't appropriate content. The new rules I'll be proposing are not gonna be about copyright (that matter has been settled here), but they could still help prevent similar issues from happening in the future. I'll post a link in the [[DF:Centralized Discussion|Centralized Discussion]] when I'm done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 12:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
:: I apologize to those waiting for the proposal. I am still working it (~halfway-done). – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 13:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
:Sound good. I've thought about writing guidelines for images and copyrights after these present copyright issues have been solved. As far as I can tell, no such guide exists yet on this wiki. Copyright may seem to be quite a complex topic if you haven't read about it already, so I think writing a relatively easy to read guide for if a file can be used here (copyright-wise) would serve well to prevent issues like this in the future. The guide shouldn't be too long, since a guide that is too long or difficult to read is useless. This guide could be either a part of Doorkeeper's proposed guidelines on image uploading or a separate guide. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 12:50, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Checked via Discord with Kruggsmash - turns out the author of Steelclutches and Ustvangdagash (sp?) is apparently fine with the situation as is, having already seen the relevant pieces several times in their own browsing [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 20:09, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

:Thank you, Silverwing235. Is he aware of the fact that his artwork on this wiki has Creative Commons licenses apparently pulled out of thin air? For example, [[:File:Giant cave toad.jpg]] has license Creative Commons Attribution 3.0. Since Creative Commons licenses are transferable, this means that anyone browsing this wiki can use the images in their own project as long as they follow the license: in this example, someone could make a commercial product with Kruggsmash's giant cave toad on it, as long as they credit him.
:What I am trying to point out here is that even if the artists we contact are okay with this wiki using their art, we can't really use their art unless we know under which license they want their artwork to be published here. This is related to the discussion above about "permission to use in Dwarf Fortress wiki only" [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 06:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

::If he wasn't before, he is now. Saying he 'doesn't care at all' about it, though, which reminds me, as something may have been lost in transmission with the Discord convo regardless....what's your Discord handle, if you've got one? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:46, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

:::Sorry, I don't have a Discord account. I trust you, no worries. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 15:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay, moving right along, since its close to end-of-year...shouldn't we just 'burn' most of the Shutterstock-related stuff we've found anyway, since its non-transferable to begin with? If not, why not? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 15:21, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

:Well, I'd happily mark every file listed on [[User:Tanamoril/Copyright violations]] for deletion, since I believe them to be copyright violations. (The images which aren't copyright violations, or were only missing attribution etc., I've fixed and not added to that page). The reason I haven't done that is because I thought others might want to take a look at the files and comment on either individual files or this whole project.
:Even in cases where the artist is found and asked for permission to use their art on this wiki, it shouldn't be a problem if the file is deleted before they answer, because if they are favorable on their art being here, the files can just be reuploaded.
:If others agree, I can just mark for deletion all files as I put them on the list, as well as existing files there. Alternatively I could do as Silverwing235 suggests and do that for stock photos only, but I don't see much point in marking only half of the copyright violations for deletion. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 18:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Noting that [https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/97787309/4956385855 TaesoSpiritDragon] and [https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/795899299/4965836672 MaskedMidnight] have been tapped for comments. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 10:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Oddly enough, one cannot make comments on a Steam mod page, unless one also has the relevant game (dunno what you might've been expecting, Tanamoril), so Psychedelic Coffee's Steam [https://steamcommunity.com/id/Psychedelic_Coffee| profile] has been pinged, instead. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:35, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Comment: btw when adding\updating image info, please add\link artist info there, if you aren't already. I usually put full info on the image page (even if I  don't have to, like with PD), including a link to image source and artist profile if available. IMO its good common courtesy practice, it make easier to find the artist if you like their work for example, which could translate into a little more exposure for them as small token of appreciation for using their work. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

:Thanks, Silverwing245, I didn't know that about Steam. By the way, both you and [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] contacted Jason Engle [https://www.deviantart.com/jasonengle/art/The-Faceless-652570938 here], right? It seems that both comments have been deleted. Did Engle perhaps send you a private message? 
:I agree with Jan. It also helps future wiki editors, if there is any confusion in future about the origins of images or their permissions or licenses. Of course, link rot is an issue here, see for example links in [[:File:Vault2.jpg]], but it's still better than nothing. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 10:22, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
::Nothing we can or should do about such link rot. Overall I am not trying to go way and beyond, but be practical. Copy pasting the source url takes couple of seconds and helps everyone. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:22, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

WRT Engle, no PM ''yet'', but I'll give it the rest of the week, before throwing a quietly annoyed 'recap & breach of social conduct' email in his general direction. I mean, is it not somewhat rude to just delete comments of this sort, with no PM? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:13, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
:Not sure about rude, more like confusing. Engle is either a victim of art theft, or he has given a permission for us to use the image. Whichever is the case, I don't understand what his motive could be in sweeping the comments under the rug. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 13:17, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

To talk about confusing: there's apparently no way of directly contacting any of the relevant artists ''at all'' from their user pages on Dreamtime/Shutterstock/etc! What to do now...?! [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:46, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

So, artists: Alyssa has been recontacted via email, and is fine with being credited, although the Deviantart acc is basically abandoned (http://artstation.com/alymccart) .As for Wildweasel339, [https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/179846688/4969461218 ping ensues]. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:35, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

:Well, if the stock photo websites don't allow any contact with the photographer, I guess I'll just mark the offending files for deletion.
:In my humble opinion, we should prioritise contacting artists who have made actual DF art (instead of generic fantasy art). I've come across at least two of those who we haven't contacted yet: [https://androidarts.com/ProfileFAQ.htm#contact Arne Niklas Jansson], who even has [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=922 an account] on Bay12forums, and [https://twitter.com/hou_jae04 호우자] aka hou_jae04 on Twitter. I have a strong suspicion that both are fine with having their art displayed on this wiki, but it should still be asked. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 06:46, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

::I agree on both accounts (Although I would say that unless we are talking about some specific in jokes, the line between DF art and generic fantasy art is rather blurry because of how much is left to imagination in DF. Especially for the procedurally generated stuff) --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:07, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest adding a simpler version of [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:No_license_since Template:No license], and auto tagging all problematic files and new files that hasn't been uploaded without sufficient license. If the uploader can't resolve the issue in allotted time (month?) use AWB to auto tag for deletion and removing them from articles. Otherwise your going to get swamped. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:54, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

All the images mention on the project page have been uploaded by zippy, his contribution page show that he has uploaded hundreds more, cursory look show all has bogus license with some blunt copyright violations, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are given that the user ostensibly didn't understand copyright. In the 3 month since you embarked on this project and highlighting the issue, instead of addressing those issues zippy has uploaded more copyrighted images with bogus license than the handful of that have been addressed here.

So without measure like what I suggested in the comment above this project is like pissing in the wind. In practice copyright violations are being ignored here so we can keep using the images until a replacement can be found or someone make an explicit claim (ostensibly we already had a DMCA claim, was a comment by IP user, could have been anyone, but I wouldn't take the risk) so maybe its better to leave things as they are and let the host admins worry about excuses if shit hit the fan.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:35, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

:Thank you, Jan, for taking part in this effort and confronting [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]. I don't think this endeavor is as hopeless as you seem to think: I've already gone through over 500 files, while there's about 130 more files uploaded by Zippy to check. However, I do agree with you on that something must be done with Zippy. I believe he acts in good faith, but his continuing uploading of copyright infringing images is unacceptable. He either has to learn how copyright works or stop uploading files, the latter of which could be enforced by admins if necessary.
:I disagree with you on that we should just leave things be. Out of respect for the artists, we shouldn't use their images unrightfully, whether they know we are using them or not. "Let someone else deal with the problem" isn't a good attidute for a wiki: none of us would be editing this wiki if we always thought that someone else should fix all the issues we found. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 08:37, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
:: The wiki has a lot of problems to fix. I tried to lend a hand to your effort here, offering zippy safe venues for finding licensed art and how to use it, and failing that possible solution available to you. Beyond that there are roles on the wiki some entail greater responsibilities and technical abilities that you'd need their support e.g. you can tag copyright violation but you still need admin action to actually delete them. Anyway good luck with the good fight. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:06, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Finishing up ===

[[User:Tanamoril/Copyright violations | I have now gone through]] all the files uploaded between the 1st of January 2016 and 13th of March 2022, including all files Zippy has uploaded. I propose the following to be done:
* All files under "Images where the original artist has not been contacted" and "Unknown original artist" should be marked for deletion
* Files under "Images where the original artist has been contacted" should be deleted too, if there has been no response from the artist. At this point, it has been months since most of them have been contacted, so waiting any longer seems pointless.
* Under the heading "Probably fine" I've listed art that I strongly suspect the original artist doesn't mind having on this wiki, at least under some conditions. It is very well possible some of them have already given permission for their art to be used in this wiki. The artists should still be contacted, but the images probably don't need to be deleted immediately. 
Even if the number of images to be deleted is large, I don't believe that the removal of copyright infringing images will cause too big of an issue to this wiki. For most images, finding an equivalent image with a wiki-compatible license shouldn't be difficult. [[DF2014:Animal person | Animal people]] will suffer the most, but those aren't the most visited pages of this wiki anyway. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 15:59, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
:Sounds good and thanks for taking the time to sift through the mess. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:11, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Just confirming that Psychedelic Coffee, in particular, [https://steamcommunity.com/id/Psychedelic_Coffee had in fact replied fairly promptly, and therefore deserves a last minute category change] (''do please understand that the Steam Web UI appears to be incredibly finicky about external linking in the usual manner, and already broke once, to my knowledge - you may have to do a copypaste.'') [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:09, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

:Good catch, Silverwing235. I had missed Psychedelic Coffee's response, my bad. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 15:22, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

== What's the actual meaning of the dual license here? ==

Hello! I'm a reader of DFWiki, and I'm now trying to translate some of the pages here to Chinese. Now I'm confused about the dual license -- GFDL and MIT -- applied in DF Wiki site. Does that mean I have to follow both (which seems impossible), or I can choose one of them to deliver the translated version? Or if that means all of the contents at DFWiki are issued by one or the other, respectively, then which part is under GFDL and which is under MIT? Hope someone may explain that, I would really appreciate. [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|Xjtu-blacksmith]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 13:09, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, hi. From what I understand, yes, you're right in that you can choose either of the licences to do the translation with. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 10:51, 19 January 2022 (UTC)