Difference between revisions of "User talk:VengefulDonut"

Latest revision as of 21:19, 8 November 2014

Welcome to this wiki! Dwarf Fortress rapidly becomes more complicated, and we're always glad to have new writers.
Since you should try to follow wiki standards, and you probably don't know ours yet, we've made a list of basic guidelines. Note that this is a template, not a customized message for you.

To tell us who you are when you talk, please sign your posts on discussion pages by typing --~~~~ after your posts. This can also be inserted with the button if JavaScript is enabled.
Don't put a question mark in the title of a page. Question marks mess things up, and your page will be moved to a different name.
When making comments on a talk page, use one more colon before each line in your comment than was used in the comment you reply to. In general, put exactly one empty line between comments by different users but do not use blank lines inside of a comment.
Avoid making many small edits to a page. Instead, try to make one large edit. This makes the history of the page a lot easier to read.
Don't edit the user page of another user. If you want to tell them something, add the comment to their talk page.
If you put a comment at the bottom of a talk page with section headers, you've probably put it in a section. Putting things in the wrong sections is confusing. You can create a section!
Generally, read and follow the rules. They're like a little constitution, except not boring! Really, read them.

"You have been processed! Go forth, now, and edit!" --Savok

Templates and RGB values[edit]

Mediawiki hates me - it refuses to let {{fgcolor}} (and {{bgcolor}}) work correctly unless they're inserted in the middle of an HTML tag (and it must be an HTML tag - a style attribute in a wiki-markup table does NOT count). Excuse me while I go sit in a corner and whimper. --Quietust 17:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be working.

VengefulDonut 07:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Of course, now a far more insidious problem has shown up - if the fgcolor and bgcolor templates are used more than 100 times in a particular page (a single {{Raw Tile}} uses each once), all subsequent transclusions turn up empty. I can only assume it's doing too many regular expressions, but it can't be that many, given how simple the templates are... --Quietust 20:07, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

For now, I've switched the templates back to 128-case #switch statements, and the problem seems to have gone away. Still, it seems odd that #rmatch and #rreplace would just stop working after being used 100 times in a single page. --Quietust 21:20, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The regex functions extension has an option that determines what the limit per page is. If you need a larger number, you can ask Breiss to raise the limit. VengefulDonut 01:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Template:Raw[edit]

I've just adapted {{gamedata}} to attempt to fetch creature raws from "raws" pages similar to the stone/gem templates (except using an extra pair of templates to transform the page name into a CREATURE id and the name of the file that contains the raws, though the former could probably be skipped by just matching against "[NAME:foo:bar:baz]") - it works, but {{raw}} strips out all of the linebreaks and spaces between tokens. How hard would it be to make a version of {{raw}} (or add a parameter) that doesn't do that? --Quietust 18:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Never mind, figured it out myself and saved it as {{raw2}}. Of course, now the trick will be to make it so {{gamedata}} supports raw lookups for things other than creatures (possibly by simply giving it a "type" parameter - CREATURE, MATGLOSS, INORGANIC, PLANT, etc.)... --Quietust 18:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

It already has a type parameter Oo VengefulDonut 23:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to {{gamedata}} (which I've currently hardcoded to CREATURE because it doesn't take any parameters), not {{Raw}}. I'll probably just split it into several different templates and have the various infobox templates include the appropriate one. --Quietust 23:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

RAWs[edit]

Is there any way we can categorize the RAW files? Perhaps by having a <noinclude>{{category|Raws}}</noinclude> at the bottom? Or would that break your system? Mason ^(T-C) 14:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I am. Mason ^(T-C) 14:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little OCD about that sort of stuff, and if you looked at the RC you probably saw my ongoing attempt to organize things, I saw those pages and just ignored them because I didn't want to break things :). But if that can happen that'd be great. Thanks! Mason ^(T-C) 14:44, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Stones, gems, and /raw[edit]

In the process of creating all of the templates to handle the various /raw pages, I included the ones necessary for stones, gems, and metals. How much work would it be for you to change your stonelookup/layerlookup/gemlookup templates to read their data directly from the corresponding /raw page instead of fetching it directly from the corresponding inorganic.txt file? I haven't created said /raw pages yet, but it'd be trivial to do so. --Quietust 04:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

It would not be a difficult change. VengefulDonut 05:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Philosophy[edit]

I don't get exactly what this is all about. I guess you disapprove with how I handled the "quality" stuff. But I think I did exactly what you said I should do, which is "disregard the lot and do what you think is correct". It seems in this case that you were "the lot", but I assume even in those cases you'd still offer the same advice. Mason ^(T-C) 17:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

DF2010:Quality[edit]

I don't believe the revert was justified, as I went through all the content I copied, commented out stuff I was very sure was wrong, but had a possibility of being right, put ^[Verify] tags on things that were likely correct, but had a possibility of being wrong (I think I put in four, admittedly one of which was on the value modifier for Masterwork items because it was higher than the known stated value (what little you left behind) for artifacts), and removed things that I was sure were no longer relevant. I turned a blank page into an actual, decent, article.--74.103.148.193 23:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess the ^[Verify] tag is pointless then. Alright then I guess I'll just shut the fuck up and not bother helping out anymore, because clearly, I'm not wanted.--Draco18s 04:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"...a blank page was more beneficial to the end user..." As an "end user" a blank page is never beneficial. As an "end user" I would rather have duplicated, mostly correct, information than have to navigate an additional link. I apologize for being bold and trying to help.--Draco18s 17:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Please may I have...[edit]

A copy or working link to part 5 of your video series on ripping through multi-layer aquifers? I can figure it out, since you did show the upper levels in later parts, but I'd like to see the complete set at least once.

I'm not sure if anyone else agrees, but I'd even be ok with a youtube link. --jaz 18:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Re: Underpopulated categories[edit]

I forgot about your message on my talk page, but the problems with categories should be fixed now (thanks to Emi). —Lethosor (talk) 21:19, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 Welcome to this wiki! Dwarf Fortress rapidly becomes more complicated, and we're always glad to have new writers.<br>
-Since we prefer that you try to follow our wiki's standards, we've made a list of basic guidelines. This is a template.
+Since you should try to follow wiki standards, and you probably don't know ours yet, we've made a list of basic guidelines. Note that this is a template, not a customized message for you.
-* To let us know who you are, please sign your posts on discussion pages by typing <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code> after your posts. This can also be inserted with the [[Image:Button sig756222.png]] button if JavaScript is enabled.
+* To tell us who you are when you talk, please sign your posts on discussion pages by typing <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code> after your posts. This can also be inserted with the [[Image:Button sig756222.png]] button if JavaScript is enabled.
-* Never put a question mark in the title of a page. Question marks mess things up, and your page will be moved to a different name.
+* Don't put a question mark in the title of a page. Question marks mess things up, and your page will be moved to a different name.
-* When making comments on a talk page, use one more colon before each line in your comment than was used in the comment you reply to. Put exactly one empty line between comments by different users but do not use blank lines inside of a comment. If your comment has no indents, use <code><nowiki><br></nowiki></code> after each line.
+* When making comments on a talk page, use one more colon before each line in your comment than was used in the comment you reply to. In general, put exactly one empty line between comments by different users but do not use blank lines inside of a comment.
 * Avoid making many small edits to a page. Instead, try to make one large edit. This makes the history of the page a lot easier to read.
 * Don't edit the user page of another user. If you want to tell them something, add the comment to their talk page.
-* If you put a comment at the bottom of a talk page with section headers, you've probably put it in a section. Don't put things in the wrong sections. If necessary, create a section.
+* If you put a comment at the bottom of a talk page with section headers, you've probably put it in a section. Putting things in the wrong sections is confusing. You can create a section!
-* Most importantly, [[DwarfFortressWiki:Community_Portal#We_are_doing_this.21_Let_us_do_it_right.|read and follow the rules.]] Really. Read them.
+* Generally, [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#We_are_doing_this.21_Let_us_do_it_right.|read and follow the rules.]] They're like a little constitution, except not boring! Really, read them.
 <div align=center><div style="width: 28em; padding: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-top: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #ccc; background: #eee; text-align: center">''"You have been processed! Go forth, now, and edit!" --[[User:Savok|Savok]]''</div></div>
-Well, since linking externally isn't popular, and copying part-content isn't popular, might as well give up --[[User:TinyPirate|TinyPirate]] 05:11, 19 February 2009 (EST)
+== Templates and RGB values ==
+Mediawiki hates me - it refuses to let {{tl|fgcolor}} (and {{tl|bgcolor}}) work correctly unless they're inserted in the middle of an HTML tag (and it '''must''' be an HTML tag - a style attribute in a wiki-markup table does NOT count). Excuse me while I go sit in a corner and whimper. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
-Re Parser Functions:  Hmm... it was working in august, and supposedly in january at some point.
+{| style="color: {{#tag:nowiki|{{fgcolor|4:6:0}}}} "
-I guess i'll have to stop using my templates that relies on it, even though it was working back in august.  :|  thanks for the info -- [[User:Vaevictus|Vaevictus]] 02:41, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
+|-
+||  This seems to be working.
+|} [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 07:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
+:Thanks. Of course, now a far more insidious problem has shown up - if the fgcolor and bgcolor templates are used more than 100 times in a particular page (a single {{tl|Raw Tile}} uses each once), all subsequent transclusions turn up empty. I can only assume it's doing too many regular expressions, but it can't be '''that''' many, given how simple the templates are... --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:07, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
+::For now, I've switched the templates back to 128-case #switch statements, and the problem seems to have gone away. Still, it seems odd that #rmatch and #rreplace would just stop working after being used 100 times in a single page. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 21:20, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
+:::The regex functions extension has an option that determines what the limit per page is. If you need a larger number, you can ask Breiss to raise the limit. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 01:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
-Why did you revert my work on the [[Metal]] page about the different [[Value]] gains for making [[Billon]] with different [[ores]]?--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 05:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
+== Template:Raw ==
-== re stones ==
+I've just adapted {{tl|gamedata}} to attempt to fetch creature raws from "raws" pages similar to the stone/gem templates (except using an extra pair of templates to transform the page name into a CREATURE id and the name of the file that contains the raws, though the former could probably be skipped by just matching against "[NAME:'''foo''':bar:baz]") - it works, but {{tl|raw}} strips out all of the linebreaks and spaces between tokens. How hard would it be to make a version of {{tl|raw}} (or add a parameter) that doesn't do that? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 18:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
+:Never mind, figured it out myself and saved it as {{tl|raw2}}. Of course, now the trick will be to make it so {{tl|gamedata}} supports raw lookups for things other than creatures (possibly by simply giving it a "type" parameter - CREATURE, MATGLOSS, INORGANIC, PLANT, etc.)... --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 18:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
+::It already has a type parameter Oo [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
+:::I was referring to {{tl|gamedata}} (which I've currently hardcoded to CREATURE because it doesn't take any parameters), not {{tl|Raw}}. I'll probably just split it into several different templates and have the various infobox templates include the appropriate one. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 23:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
-Thanks for the input - don't want to overstep trying to be "helpful" if I'm working off of bad info.  But ''is'' a vein of Al an anomaly in the current version? I'm unsure how to read the RAW's at that level.
+== RAWs ==
-(edit) - matgloss_stone_mineral says...
+Is there any way we can categorize the RAW files?  Perhaps by having a <nowiki><noinclude>{{category|Raws}}</noinclude></nowiki> at the bottom?  Or would that break your system? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- "[ENVIRONMENT:IGNEOUS_EXTRUSIVE:CLUSTER_SMALL:100]"
+:I am. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
-- is that supposed to be small clusters ''only''?  --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
+::I'm a little OCD about that sort of stuff, and if you looked at the RC you probably saw my ongoing attempt to organize things, I saw those pages and just ignored them because I didn't want to break things :).  But if that can happen that'd be great. Thanks! [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:44, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
-== "Refined Coal" vs "Fuel" ==
+== Stones, gems, and /raw ==
-Hey - okay, I've learned a lot since the above changes. About the game, about this wiki - thanks again for your comments. On a different subject...
+In the process of creating all of the templates to handle the various /raw pages, I included the ones necessary for stones, gems, and metals. How much work would it be for you to change your stonelookup/layerlookup/gemlookup templates to read their data directly from the corresponding /raw page instead of fetching it directly from the corresponding inorganic.txt file? I haven't created said /raw pages yet, but it'd be trivial to do so. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 04:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
-I find the term "refined coal" unnecessarily confusing.  Refined coal, charcoal, bituminous coal - and coke (which is like coal, right?).  But doesn't only mined coal get refined? Wood is not refined - charcoal is not coal - does charcoal get refined after it's produced?  Bleh.  When I first read that page, a day-one n00b in the game, it was complete gibberish, and even now it takes some wading through.  Maybe I'm over-thinking it, but still...
+:It would not be a difficult change. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 05:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
-I never see the term "refined coal" used anywhere in the game or forums.  However, you are the one who originally changed the designated term from fuel to rc in the first place, over a year ago...
+== Philosophy ==
-:''"6:28, 21 February 2008 VengefulDonut (Talk | contribs) m (Refined Coal moved to Refined coal: in accordance to naming conventions)"''
+I don't get exactly what this is all about.  I guess you disapprove with how I handled the "quality" stuff.  But I think I did exactly what you said I should do, which is "disregard the lot and do what you think is correct".  It seems in this case that you were "the lot", but I assume even in those cases you'd still offer the same advice. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 17:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
-What are the "naming conventions" you are referring to? Was that simply to match the term used in the article to the page title?
+== DF2010:Quality ==
+I don't believe the revert was justified, as I went through all the content I copied, commented out stuff I was very sure was wrong, but had a possibility of being right, put {{verify}} tags on things that were likely correct, but had a possibility of being wrong (I think I put in four, admittedly one of which was on the value modifier for Masterwork items because it was higher than the known stated value (what little you left behind) for artifacts), and removed things that I was sure were no longer relevant.  I turned a blank page into an actual, decent, article.--[[Special:Contributions/74.103.148.193|74.103.148.193]] 23:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
+:I guess the {{verify}} tag is pointless then.  Alright then I guess I'll just shut the fuck up and not bother helping out anymore, because clearly, I'm not wanted.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 04:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
+::"...a blank page was more beneficial to the end user..."  As an "end user" a blank page is ''never'' beneficial.  As an "end user" I would rather have duplicated, mostly correct, information than have to navigate an additional link.  I apologize for '''being bold''' and trying to help.--[[User:Draco18s|Draco18s]] 17:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
-I'd like to put that entire article under "Fuel", and retire the term "refined coal" in favor of that word.  Nothing else need change - with the exception of that one term, the page as is would be copied/pasted and moved whole cloth.  (Currently, "fuel" redirects to the "refined coal" page.)  A short explanation on th RC page, to save the history &  directing people to Fuel.  Redirects from "charcoal" and "coke" would go to "fuel".  Any coal would then be ''either'' Bituminous or Char-, and the world a little brighter.  imo.
+== Please may I have... ==
-But, while "B" is for [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Community Portal#B|Bold]], I thought there was nothing lost in asking your opinion on the move first, since you were the one to see cause to change it in the first place. (respond on my page or in forums if you'd prefer) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
+A copy or working link to part 5 of your video series on ripping through multi-layer aquifers? I can figure it out, since you did show the upper levels in later parts, but I'd like to see the complete set at least once.
- While it is true that I moved the page to "Refined coal", the page I moved it from was
+I'm not sure if anyone else agrees, but I'd even be ok with a youtube link.         --[[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- "Refined Coal"....
- ...However, if it still does then "refined coal" is a more suitable name than "fuel" since only
- "refined coal" appears in-game. VengefulDonut 06:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
-Ah - all I could tell from the history was that you were the first to replace the term "fuel" with refined coal".  Hmmm - when you have none and try to queue a task at a conventional smelter, you get the message '''"Must have coal fuel"''' - yet another vague and inaccurate term with "coal" - bonus. When you have some but run out before your queued tasks are complete, you get the '''"jpb cancels smelt <ore>: needs refined coal"''' message you are remembering.  So much for in-game consistency (much less clarity).
+== Re: Underpopulated categories ==
-The term "fuel" is what's used commonly (if informally) as a clear catch-all for both types - when you read the instructions "you need fuel for a smelter", that's both accurate and not misleading. A wiki needs to be sensitive to both the game and the players' usage, neh?  The problem here is threefold - 1) that there is no single term, 2) that the (now two!) game terms are brutally misleading, and 3) that the chosen page title "refined coal" does necessarily refer to either "refined" nor "coal" - and all that should be made clearer, and avoid trying to use 4 terms with the word "coal" in them, including three that don't actually, technically refer only to coal.  And all the more so since the in-game text doesn't go there.
+I forgot about your [[User_talk:Lethosor#Underpopulated_categories|message]] on my talk page, but the problems with categories should be fixed now (thanks to [[User:Emi|Emi]]). &mdash;[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 21:19, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
-If we direct both "coal fuel" and "refined coal" to a small explanation page, and then added a separate page to fully explain the concept of "fuel" (as the current page attempts, but without being a slave to the term "refined coal"), do you think that would cover it?  Despite the confusion in the code, we can engineer a clear(er) understanding of what's going on for the new reader, which we ''don't'' have now.
-Maybe something like this:
- '''Refined coal''' and '''Coal fuel''' are both in-game terms for [[Fuel]].  At a conventional (non-magma) smelter,
- cancellation the messages using these terms refer to the fact that there is no high-quality fuel available
- to fire the smelter.
- However, due to confusion between the terms "refined coal", "coal fuel", "[[charcoal]]", "[[bituminous coal]]",
- and "[[coke]]", the term "[[fuel]]" is now more commonly seen and used, and you are now referred to [[Fuel|that page]].
-Then, under "fuel" and using that term, each are explained clearly but without unnecessarily confusing terminology. If I were to do something along these lines and it's both clear and complete without being contradictory to the game terms, would you object?  Because as is it's almost useless to newbies - we only understand it after we've played and figured it out ourselves, and that's not the point.  --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:54, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
-:Good advice, all makes sense, thanks.  It's up. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
-== metal table ==
-Inspired by the sortable gem table, I've beaten the  [[metal#List of metals]] into submission - mostly.  How to make colors sortable eludes me.  You did the work to achieve that on the gems - if you care to repeat your magic, or point me where to find out how to. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
-:Completely by chance I stumbled on the solution to sorting the metal table - now fixed - explanation in my talk page.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 01:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
-== Assorted armor articles ==
-If you're not sure about something, please confirm it in talk pages rather than editing it into an article and leaving others to correct it. I suggest you read [[armor]] for a clearer understanding of the rules governing what clothes you can wear over others.  [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-:I can't make head nor tail of that article.  It's a jumbled mess, and needs fixing.  So either help fix it, or stop complaining.  Although, yeah, I should have asked someone. Like you.  What the heck are the rules about wearing items?!?--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 03:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-::"Help fix it or stop complaining" you say. I actually don't have a problem with how the [[armor]] article is right now. The in-game system is wacky and convoluted. My grasp on it is far from complete, and several of the tags completely throw me for a loop. [[Armor]] really is your best bet. If that's too difficult for you, you're better off working on a different topic. I think common sense says that you need to know something yourself in order to teach others about it. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 04:29, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-:::I get how it works. I don't get how that article works.  Although I am a little fuzzy on some of the specifics, such as tunics vs. shirts. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 04:47, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::If you get how it works, why are high boots not better than low boots? :P [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 04:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-:::::you can't wear them with something, due to the way the coverage works.  And they weigh a bunch more.  Something to do with how much of the leg they cover.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 04:51, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-:::::P.S. Maybe. I'm not sure, just something floating in the back of my head.
-::::::It's because they are completely identical except for their weight and material size. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 04:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::::::lies.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 05:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-{| class="wikitable"
-|-
-! [ITEM_SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_BOOTS]
-! [ITEM_SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_BOOTS_LOW]
-|-
-| [NAME:high boot:high boots]]
-| [NAME:low boot:low boots]
-|-
-| [WEIGHT:20]
-| [WEIGHT:15]
-|-
-| [VALUE:15]
-| [VALUE:15]
-|-
-| [ARMORLEVEL:1]
-| [ARMORLEVEL:1]
-|-
-| [BLOCKPOWER:60]
-| [BLOCKPOWER:60]
-|-
-| [UPSTEP:1]
-| '''No corresponding tag'''
-|-
-| [METAL_ARMOR_LEVELS]
-| [METAL_ARMOR_LEVELS]
-|-
-| [LAYER:OVER]
-| [LAYER:OVER]
-|-
-| [COVERAGE:100
-| [COVERAGE:100]
-|-
-| [LAYER_SIZE:25]
-| [LAYER_SIZE:25]
-|-
-| [LAYER_PERMIT:15]
-| [LAYER_PERMIT:15]
-|}
-See that place where there is no tag? That means that low boots do not extend to the lower leg.  High boots do.  That is why they are different.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 05:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-::Oh, good call. Hmm, [[armor]] doesn't even mention that kind of thing. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-: ''"I get how it works..."''
-:While I admit acknowledge your effort and enthusiasm, the content indicates otherwise. Too many factual and practical errours.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 05:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-::Which is why we all need to work on it.  I haven't been here long enough to know the mechanics very well.  I'm still practicing not dying to gobbos in my third seige.(first two are ok, third gets hard.)--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)