Talk:Person

Hi!

Is 'Person' a mechanic in DF? To my knowledge, its not. So if I understand correctly, this is merely a way of describing game mechancis in another way, right?

Does 'person' somehow play any role in any game mechanic? Of not, this article is purely arbitrary.

Also: In my opinion, the properties CanLearn and CanSpeak are the most importand ones determing if someone is a person. I think you have added to much dwarven properties to the comparison. For example: CanOpenDoors. This is surely not a property of a person. Because also angels, demons, bogeyman have this token, are they a person? in real live, monkeys and dogs can open doors, parrots can 'speak', and you've added 'Magma Crab' to the list? Where is this going to? Is having a body a property of a person, so every creature can be added to this list! It is an interesting way to discuss about, but I think it has no value to this wiki. Sorry

What do we learn about Dwarf Fortress from this page? What does it add? Joostheger (talk) 14:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

You can learn a lot about Dwarf Fortress from this page because this seems to be the only page that lists every non-procedurally-generated creature that can open doors, can speak, can spit, and is a playable character. I wrote this article because I wanted to know what a person is and there was no article to explain it to me. Aside from the magma crab, the ability to spit does a pretty good job of capturing a set of persons.

Personhood is not a game mechanic, but the concept effects how people play the game. This game has a lot of unfamiliar creatures. A player might see a mud man and think, "is that a person?" They can check the person article and make a determination for themselves. Jecowa (talk) 13:25, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Listing any arbitrary filtering of creaturetypes in itself doesn't add to much in terms of usability. Why does anyone want to know what a person is? Why did you want to know?

If you say: because I, as an adventurer, want to know if I can talk to it, or: I want to know which characters I can play as, as an adventurer, then your goal is much clearer. Maybe it is to know if a visiter can become a member of your fortress, then also its clearer. And then when your goal is clearer, you can use that to determine which creatures to list.

Unfamiliair creatures can already be found in Creature

Oh and by the way, if you continue on this path ;-) you might consider the existence of personality to determine personhood

I appreciate you take the time to counter my questioning Joostheger (talk) 14:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Knowing who a person is could be helpful for a player wanting to play with some ethics or morality in-mind, and it could be helpful for a modder wanting to add new creatures or modify existing ones. A modder might want to add a new species of person or modify an existing one and want to check features of similar person-type creatures for comparison. It's not intended to be specific to fortress or adventure mode, but it includes information specific to both.

My goal was to find out who is a person. Figuring out who can join a fortress was just part of trying to figure out who is a person, but knowing who can join a fortress is also interesting and this seems to be the most-complete list of creatures capable of joining a fortress. It's a bunch of info on a several things not mentioned elsewhere all conveniently together for comparing against each other for different creatures to help players in making a decision on who they think is a person.

The creatures article tells you if a creature is tamable, friendly, and edible, but that's not enough information to determine if it's a person.

The values and dreams part of personality look really good. I'll add those next, but only for creatures already on the list for now since I'm not sure how to search for dreams and values in the raws and am instead checking them one-by-one in the object testing arena. Jecowa (talk) 16:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

From empirical testing so far, it would seem that whether or not a creature has values is determined by its ability to learn. Having dreams seems to be rare for creatures in the object testing arena. Jecowa (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you're getting more and more to the point. CanLearn seems to me also the most important part of being a person, being the basis for having a personality. I think you first should define what a person is, because now it is a bit undirected. And then you can say, that a Bronze Colossus is a construct, not a person, a Yeti and Sasquatch are more animal than person, and a Grimeling is a plant, not a person. And so on Joostheger (talk) 19:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The revision at the bottom of the page is absolutely much better, in my (not so) humble opinion. The creatures on that list either match their real live counterparts of myhtical humanoids, or are manlike-animals. The most determining factor should be self-concienceness, and that matches most closely to the characteristics of CanLearn. Also for your information: the non-slowlearners of this list are able to gain a nobles-position, which you can add to the definition of a person, if you'd like. Nice work Joostheger (talk) 07:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe nice to know: persona is a greek word, refering to the masks that theater players used. In other words, a personality is the mask an individual uses to present himself to the world. Or: a person is the outside of an individual. And by really knowing someone, you not only know the person, but also the individual. A thing you can accomplish by very deep and candid mutual love, not only by a married couple, but also between very close friends. Anyway, cheers. Joostheger (talk) 07:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, every creature in the game has personality. Mudman, giant grasshopper, elf– they're all the same. But I guess it's also an acceptable answer to consider every creature to be a person. Jecowa (talk) 09:43, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Looking at a disassembly, all creatures select random values for the 50 personality traits, but only creatures with CAN_LEARN will pick values, needs, and goals. --Quietust (talk) 12:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)