Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

What about {{version}}?

Did you have something like this in mind? category:version template:version (: VengefulDonut 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I did see that before and I think that's awesome as notes about particular items in an article, but it doesn't quite bring us to the two goals I hoped for here. It informs users about a statement but because of the difficulty (and undesirability) of labeling every statement in an article I think a single template per article can bring something different to the table. Mason11987 ^(T-C) 21:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Template:old is the same functionality but with a box. Is this what you need, or did you have something else in mind? VengefulDonut 21:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Much closer, I think a box for an article (maybe shifted to the top-right) is necessary for this, in order to provide the benefit of information for the user. A difference is I'd like this box to be on every article so that not only are articles labeled as out of date, but also as up to date. Most importantly I'm more about discussing the conceptual idea of this kind of organization, then we can devise an appropriate implementation. Mason11987 ^(T-C) 21:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

From what I've seen so far, it looks like what you want is a trivial step away from the things already in place. Is putting the box in the top right corner and putting one on every article the only difference? VengefulDonut 21:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh I'm not saying it's a fundemental change, but it's implementation will allow for the large project of updating after this big update of DF. There are some details I think should be part of this change:

• A box on every article stating if the article is up to date or not. If it's not, also stating up to what version it is up to date.
• A categorization scheme that follows like so:
  • If it's up to date, put in two categories: something like "up to date", and something like "version ______"
  • If it's not up to date, put it in two categories: something like "obsolete", and something like "version _____"

Each page should be able to just list the version it's updated as of, the template should determine whether "{{Version|40d}}" should end up in category "up to date" or category "obsolete". This should be done in such a way that when a new version comes out we can make a small change to the template and EVERY article will become "obsolete" and users can over time go through them and confirm that they are still up-to-date by changing the template to refer to the new version. I think this is the major aspect I'm proposing that isn't a trivial difference from the current method of organization and upkeep here. Do you get what I'm suggesting? If I thought it was a trival difference I would have just implemented it and asked what people thought, but this could be a very big deal if we go through with it. Mason11987 ^(T-C) 22:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Take a look at template:vcat. This is the template currently placed on all of the version category pages. It compares the version the category corresponds to with template:current/version and displays a message based on whether or not it matches. Is this the type of thing you want? VengefulDonut 22:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

This is certainly a useful feature already in place that would likely go on the categories that will be created, or it might just stay as is but the version template will change slightly. Mason11987 ^(T-C) 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps use "New", "Old", and "Obsolete" markers? DF2010 is "New", 40d is "Old", and pre-40d is "Obsolete"? I like the idea of a small box up in the corner, and a category to group them. --Aescula 23:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I would want to make sure we don't get out of hand; new uses will be likely to ignore anything marked "Old" even if it continues to be accurate (nobody had verified it). Perhaps something like "This page is X releases old; some information may be changed" or something. Most releases don't change more than a few major areas (DF2010 is an exception because of the length of release, but even it won't be changing everything). I do think that something like this is VERY important for "tutorial" sections; a single key change could stymie a new user; and we'd lose them forever. --Bombcar 00:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Well of course and that's a detail on the text in the template. There are multiple goals to accomplish and realistically I don't think it would take long on a minor to average version to go through and just check each article to make sure it's up to date. There are a lot but it's not too much, and there a lot of active editors on here who if given a straightforward task of article version checking would be able to accomplish it in the early days of a new version release I'm sure. I also think the New/Old(Current)/Obsolete(Old) is a great addition. That way we can do the transition of New to Current for DF2010 after we've done a lot of the work. Mason11987 ^(T-C) 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem with "updating" all the old version's pages is that is based on the premise that a page, as a whole, can both be "updated" and then accurately labeled as such. It can't, not either. Pieces will be updated, subsections, or single elements of subsections, but even then only as accurate as that last editor understood the changes. Think about the changes that the Wound/Healing system will undergo, or Materials/Values, or Weapons/Armor, and all the directly associated pages and concepts, and references and paraphrasing in other articles - could be massive and subtle at the same time. When does a label get changed? If each User only edits a bit at a time (and few of us rewrite entire pages!), how do we know we've filtered out all the legacy information? I do like the idea of beginning new version labels for each version's article on the same subject - altho' that would almost require different sites to allow for identical article names. --Albedo 12:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your opinion on bit-by-bit changes, it makes sense. I think your below idea might be the way to go, with articles of the new version labeled with a suffix (DF2010) linking back to the "old" version, which links forward to the 2010 version. A new site is definitely not needed and would cause a huge amount of problems imo. I think a simple template on every article (like I described) pointing to a 2010 version can be done by a handful of people with a little time. Then the 2010 version can start with just that template (which will automatically point backwards). This will include the separate page like you suggested, but would still accomplish the goals I had hoped to accomplish. Mason ^(T-C) 12:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

My vision

(For what it's worth). I mentioned a desire to look into the possibility of doing this on my Admin application, in the Q&A process. When I first joined the DF community, we had just(?) undergone a version shift, and the pages here and users on the Forums here were rife with misinformation and contradictory understandings of the game. Newbies would look in the wiki and find ancient history mixed side-by-side with recent edits, some stuff that went back to the 2-D version, and that would be presented as gospel and no one knew any different. The very recent revelation that workshops do NOT make noise in d40 is a perfect example. I'd love to see this version change-over done differently.

What I had envisioned was a category template, something bold and unmistakable like mod or delete, that marked a page (or every major subsection?) as "OLD VERSION : d40" (or whatever). (This would also create a category page where all those could be scanned at a glance.) Those pages would not be edited for DF2010 - to do that would invite a piecemeal disaster that would spiral into the same jumbled quagmire (or probably worse!) that I first stepped into. As a User wants to address a topic, a new page is started - if that is identical to the prev info (dwarf, perhaps, etc), then it's mostly just copy/paste - but if not, then it gets edited and updated on the new page. If only part of it can be verified, then only part of that older page makes the transition at that time. Thus (in theory*) only material that has been confirmed as "DF2010 accurate" will make it to the "current" wiki, and the rest is clearly marked as legacy but stays intact as that.

(* I have no illusions that users will not find a way to screw this up at times. But it has to be better than opening a long legacy article that has already had a dozen editors shake it up - but it's unclear what has and what has not been addressed. Armor, or skill, for instance.)

The new pages would have a link to the old one(s), so users could see what if any old info is still applicable or unconfirmed, and/or what needs to be translated/updated and added, but the new page will grow the new article from the ground up, rather than pretend a dozen users could patch an accurate final product together from an inaccurate but similar one, one edit at a time.

It's the difference between repairing a totaled car, and using only the good pieces to rebuild a new one.

I'm not experienced enough in the wiki-code to know if or how the two "versions" would be kept distinct if we stayed on this site - many articles will certainly want the same Name, so... yeah. That's what I thought the new site/engine would be used for, not simply copy/pasting current articles and being right where we are now, right where we were with the last significant change, right where we don't want to be.--Albedo 10:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

IMO. Personally you would do this by copying every [[article]] (say, Miner) to a new namespace. With redirects from main namespace to the version namespace.

So [[Miner]] would redirect to [[VerABC:Miner]]. With a simple Page Copy, editors could copy the whole page, and easily update it to DF2010.Garrie

Um, what's the right word?... NO!!! That is exactly what I would NOT want to see happen! And sorry to shout, but that is so far off the mark it frightens me. That achieves nothing but two legacy sites. What I would prefer is that the new page is blank, and only information that has gone thru a user's confirmation process is added to that new article. Blind, bulk "copy/pasting" is not that. It's much easier to read over one section at a time and update that, than to try to weed out legacy information buried in an entire article that has been "mostly edited". For one, how does anyone know what has and has not been checked at least once? Yes, there will be constant updates - but the core information is then at least (in theory) info on 2010, not d40, and any clear d40 legacy material has already been filtered out. ("Healing and wounds" jumps immediately to mind as a collection of articles that would lead to a disastrous "rewrite" - but snipping bits and pieces, and adding that to the updated system - that gives us better accuracy for the end product.)--Albedo 10:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Something like this, Template:D40x: Template:D40x

I like where you're going and I think this could fit nicely with the goals I had in mind when I wrote this. For each article we could have a box in it. Saying that this article was updated as of version 40d, for the new version click "here". Here will link to "article name (DF2010)" or something similar. That article will have a box saying it was updated as of DF2010, and for the old version click "here", where here will link to "article name". This can easily be done via templates.

I understand your concern about updating articles bit-by-bit, and I see a lot of value in your suggestion. I think at SOME point though after the release of DF2010 we'll need to mass move articles so that the 2010 versions become the article name verions, and the article name versions become article name (40d), and the template placed can have a minor modification to continue functioning after a mass move.

Ultimately I think this will require more administrative work (move-over-redirect for example), and perhaps a larger set of work for editors, but it will more likely have a better end-product then a bit-by-bit change, which is really most important. Organization on something like this is key though, but I like your approach. Mason ^(T-C) 11:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)