40d Talk:Trading/archive1

This is an archive of old discussions. Please do not edit this page – instead, add new comments to the current talk page.

Consolidation of Trading, Trade Depot, Caravans, and Wagon

This needs wikification with some amounts of rewriting. I will give it a go. --Maska 06:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Yea thanks, this is my first try at a wiki-page. sorry if it was crappy... --CombatWombat 06:42, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Nah, there's no such thing as a crappy wiki edit, when its got content in it. Just remember to be bold, otherwise there would be nothing here. --Maska 07:29, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Well this thread's a little old, but I re-wrote and consolidated some more information on this page. There was also some discussion of this on Talk:Caravan#Merge_this_into_Trading. If you don't approve, please don't just revert it, I organized and cleaned up a lot of the scattered info, so at the very least it should be split from where it is now on the Trading page to where it should ultimately go. --Marble Dice 02:48, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

This article needs to be seperated. We dont find crafting and the craftdwarf workshop in the same article and the same goes here too. Trading is how to trade and what it means in this game. Trade depot is a construct. An encyclopedia defines things and as such we should define them seperately. It all needs to be organized as well. The flow chart is undefined and in the wrong section, etc. Ill move some stuff around and work to clean some up now but nothing to radical at the moment... what do you think? Iluziat 07:03, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

Extraction from different articles

All the information on trading seems quite scattered now (Trade depot, Caravan, Dwarf, Elf, Human etc), and as most stuff is well written I think we should merge the trade sections to this one page and leave behind only refecences. --Maska 08:29, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Looking good, is there a 'your first caravan'-type tutorial anywhere we could link to? Something with advice on the sort of goods to prepare and what to buy for the first winter, with new players in mind. I'll try and find one somewhere. --TangoThree 09:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Done, linked to the trade section in the new player guide. --TangoThree 09:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Done++ Someone else finish merging the information from Caravans into the page. Make sure to get that awesome Elf trader image. --Ikkonoishi 12:10, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Haulers?

In my experience the "bring item to depot" tasks were performed by any dwarf, even without any hauling labors enabled. Can also be my imagination. I cannot check it for now, so, anyone, please verify.--Dorten 23:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)

That's correct, as many times my pure crafters will stop crafting to haul goods to the depot, despite having only one or two production labors enabled. --Edward 03:41, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Is this similar to plant gathering where even non-working nobles and children will do it, or is it limted to any regular dwarf regardless of labour? --TangoThree 19:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Yes, nobles and children will haul stuff to the depot. --Janus 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Moving goods on afterwards

To get things out of the depot.... do I have to order them removed while the caravan is still around? I have starving dwarves... and food going rotten in the depot!GarrieIrons 06:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)

AFAIK, no. in my experience, anything bought is treated as like it's just lying there, not being traded.

Well, yes and no. Once trading is finished dwarves will start bringing the bought goods in while the caravan still is there. But you cant 'order' them to per se ;) Your own stuff that wasnt sold however will remain in depot till the caravan leaves. --Koltom 18:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Unless you go back into the goods menu at the Depot and unmark them for trading. --Edward 04:25, 14 February 2008 (EST)

I've a question in the same vein: I just traded for a truckload of goods, but the traders didn't even leave them in the depot! They just carried my goods out with them. Were my dwarves supposed to carry all of the goods back earlier? --Gh3yz0r 14:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Wow, this is super late for a response, but are you sure you traded with them and didn't just offer them your stuff as a gift? --RomeoFalling 09:06, 6 November 2008 (EST)

Duplicate Page?

The page "Caravan" has very similar information, though this "trading" page seems more complete.[Samyotix]

"everything is ruined now"

I just accidentally tried to trade the elves a wooden bin full of stone goods. Now ALL my stone goods, including ones not actually in that bin, are unacceptable. I ended up just seizing the rope I needed, but I'd like to know if this is a glitch, or if I just made them too angry to trade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadow archmagi (talk•contribs)

It's not a glitch. Elves refuse to trade at all after you give them even a single wood or animal product. After you do that the trade option is locked until they come back to trade next year. Hex Decimal 14:52, 27 February 2008 (EST)

The wooden bin told the elves you hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate animals. Don't trade dead trees or dead animal parts to elves. Rkyeun 13:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Depot Access

Not a single square on my map is accessible by the caravan. What should i do? --Noctune9 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

EDIT: My bad. It seems that it shows every square as inaccessible if the depot is not fully constructed--Noctune9 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

Trading Margins

In regards to this submission: "If you have a somewhat experienced broker or you already raised the traiders mood to pleased or above you can usually trade with marginal profit for them and you can also safely ignore their counteroffers, offering the same trade a second time, successfully."

You do realize that when they make a counteroffer they automatically add those counteroffer goods to the pot, right? Just making sure. Are you saying you go back through and remove each item their counteroffer added to your side of the deal? Seems much simpler to just stick to the ~50% rule of thumb, especially at the beginning with low skills and again once you reach the point of having so many trade goods that you can easily buy everything you need from each caravan with plenty of goods left over. --Janus 14:55, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Yes, exactly. Whenever i get a counteroffer I remove all items from the list they added until their profit is back to what i deem fit, sometimes leaving a low value item, say, 50☼, they chose, if I wanted to trade it anyway. Since this is not a beginners guide page, I think it's wrong to advise people to a 50% profit margin that is much higher than necessary. Once the traders are happy, they will even agree to trading an anvil for an anvil. I tested this extensively because usually i want them to leave early and thus try to make them angry. Almost impossible. We could however add smth about the (suspected) advantages of having high export totals like bigger caravans, more immigrants, arrival of king. --Koltom 06:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

The 50% rule of thumb is a good starting point either way. "Advanced" page or not, before I posted that, there was no guidance on what profit margin the visiting traders would generally accept, so that people were left to find out the hard way.

Going back through a long list of your trade goods to hunt down and remove the items which the visiting trader added to the offer seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, unless you just have very few trade goods or a really tight budget at your fortress.

As for being able to get away with lower margins once the trader is happy, that is definitely useful knowledge and could be expanded upon. --Janus 12:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

There is no way to refuse a counter-offer, is there? The only option is to hit Enter, and the "goods are added to the pot" as you say ... correct? --Juckto 09:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

Correct, however, you're free to simply remove the additionally requested items and re-offer. In the case of a new trader in his first few trade sessions, this will likely work, as he gained experience (probably a LOT) just by offering. Even if it doesn't, as long as you don't repeat it many times (4+ I'd say) then there's no real risk of driving them off. --Edward 13:16, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

I find it easiest to commence one dwarf with novice valuer that way you already know prices... within the first trading I can usually get some items at straight trade (0% profit) maybe it depends on civilisation demands.GarrieIrons 01:14, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

If you want a trade to succeed just make sure the trader gets 100-1000* profit. Almost every trade I made with this method was accepted. --AlexFili 06:09, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

Goblins butchering my caravans.

Every time I trade with the caravans, a goblin ambush comes and the merchants are all killed. Ive taken new measures to prevent this, but will merchants come back to trade? and what effect does their death have? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wafl (talk•contribs)

My caravans get shot up by goblins all the time. Then you get to loot their stuff. The caravans always seem to come back next year. Ripheus 22:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Offerings

Can anyone expound on the function of offering goods as gifts to traders? I tried giving the elves about 1000 worth of tchotchkes, and the next year they showed up with more goods than I've ever seen -- lots of caged animals, whereas I usually get very few, and so on. However, other times I gave them more and it seemed nothing changed. Anydwarf 12:01, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Gifts to the traders (and large trading profits) should increase the number of traders / wagons you get the following year, so they'll bring more stuff to trade. AFAIK no-one knows about the numbers for sure though. Samyotix 14:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Add hint: "Buy everything ... in case you get a strange mood"?

Personally I've found it very useful to do this:

When traders arrive, a) optionally check stocks. b) Buy everything you can't make or harvest in your own fort. c) In the diplomat meeting, order everything you can't make or harvest.

To be specific: Thread, Silk, cloth, metal bars (anything else?).

The reason: a) Dwarves sometimes demand items out of some metal or alloy they like. b) Dwarves who are possessed or get a strange mood will sometimes demand silk or cloth.

Players who proactively (harr!) seek to stock materials for possible moods will IMO have much less of a problem with dwarves going insane from moods. However I couldn't figure out where (or if) I should insert that, so I'll just add this idea (adding a hint: buy everything you don't have) to the discussion.

Also, as far as I know, possessed/moody dwarves in the current version (27.176.38c) do not demand specific items. Rather, they want a) any metal bar b) any metal ore c) Silk d) Cloth e) wood f) raw gem g) any stone ... that was it, right?. So probably such a hint could read something like:

"NOTE: If your fortress cannot harvest silk, it would be useful to order some from the caravans. If you do not have a cloth industry yet, maybe order some cloth as well. Having a small stock of materials which you are not actively using in your economy - e.g. GCS silk - will increase the likelihood of your fortress gaining an artifact from any mood or possession." Samyotix 14:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Clear the perimeter?

Is clearing the entire perimeter of the map really necessary? While my depot has been accessible at all, the caravan has always appeared at a point with access to the depot. --Raumkraut 13:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

What the article says is:

1. Caravans enter the map from a random direction which does not coincide with the relative direction of the originating civilization,
2. they may appear from different directions or z-levels each year
3. they cannot use stairs
4. they may leave without trading if it takes too long to reach the trade depot

With the above points in mind:

1. In order to guarantee perfect, permanent wagon accessibility, a three tile path must be cleared around the entire perimeter of the map, with at least one joining path from the border to the trade depot. Any parts of this path system which have grass must be paved with floor tiles, bridges, or roads to prevent trees from growing. Ramps must be used to adjust z-level elevation.

I have certainly had a depot accessible to the southern border, then had the human merchants only turn up with mules because they were approaching from a different direction.

The recommendations are how to ensure the human wagons turn up every summer (it also helps to remember to have your drawbridge down as soon as summer commences!) If you are not so concerned about human merchants then ignore the advice. If you don't have enough dwarf-power then ignore the advice. Some of it only needs to be done once (ie: adjusting slopes), and some of it just gives you more territory to consider for defending from invaders (being open to merchants also opens you to invaders).GarrieIrons 00:33, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

Can anyone give any better figures for point 4? ie: If I embark to a 16x16 area (the biggest available), and build my depot in the middle of the map, does anyone know whether they will often not make it? I think I'm built in a 12x12 or a 10x10 area, and I was planning to build a depot in the upper middle... my area is so big because I wanted magma pipe, river, and sand (and the river was far south, sand far east, magma far west). I'd rather not spend a bunch of time on this new fort only to find that half the time merchants never end up making it out to my depot... Morikal 13:15, 12 November 2008 (Eastern)

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm on a fairly big region (6x9), and I've seen them travel almost the entire diagonal length to get to my depot, with ample time left for trading. But if you make it so that there's only one route to the depot, they'll take that route. I finally put my depot in one corner and used walls and existing obstacles (boulders) to force them into a natural canyon which led into my fort. They now always enter and exit in this area, less than 100 tiles from the depot. I'll add pics of it to the article.--Maximus 17:03, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Seizing goods

"It is worth noting that in the Mac port (untested for other ports), you can simply remove the depot that the merchants are camped out on to recieve all their goods."

I can confirm that this also works in the PC version.Moonman 14:07, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

I believe this has been confirmed to cause the same ill will as seizing the items FWIW. -Fuzzy 18:01, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Empty caravans

human, elf, and dwarf caravans bringing me nothing. is it possible to have a depot too full? --Eerr 07:30, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

In recent versions of the game I've noticed that traders, after their initial visit, will only bring what was mentioned in your previous trade agreement with them. In earlier versions they'd bring all sorts of tat along too. Did you perhaps not request any goods for import? I don't imagine this could affect the Elves as well though. --Raumkraut 08:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

Prior to the latest group of releases, I'd been getting empty caravans for a LONG time, Elves and Humans alike, and occasionally even the Dwarves. Hasn't happened to me in the e release yet though (hadn't spent too much time on the other releases). --Edward 13:13, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

starvation

it must be because they brought food to my starving settlement (dwarves will run out and get food straight from the caravan)

Added a small bit.

I quickly changed the section about the possible exploit of deleting a trade depot from Mac-only-bug to an across the board phenomenon.

Caravan at Inaccessible Depot

I assume it is related to the 3 wide path only showing as 1 green square, but the caravan has stopped at a trade depot that is listed as inaccessible. Does this mean that some trade depots will show bad with SHIFT-D but are actually okay? --Aristoi 21:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

The three-wide path showing only one green square is, to my knowledge, correct. That green is the center of the path, along which the center of the wagon must align with to fit within the three-wide path. --Mattmoss 23:14, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks. It'd be nice then if the Shift-D showed that as a caravan accessible depot then. --Aristoi 01:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Correction: It does, there was a boulder in the way that I did not see. --Aristoi 22:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

50% profit rule

This really, REALLY needs to be made clearer in the game. There's nothing wrong with the trader telling us how much profit he'd expect from our goods! I've got tens of thousands worth of goods that I haven't sold for two years straight because the bloody traders wouldn't tell me how much they want, and I didn't find the 50% rule buried in this article until just now! --Theory 09:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

It's hardly 'buried' in the article, it's certainly not a rule, and it is made pretty clear in the game. I'm not just trying to be contrary; let me explain: A skilled broker can routinely trade with only a thirty or twenty percent profit, even down to ten percent if the merchant is in a good mood. If the merchant wants more profit, he will either put forth a counter-offer or say "With your trade goods such as they are, I can't possibly imagine you getting all of those items." This seems like a pretty clear indication that he wants a bigger margin. As to its place in the article: a full half of the section titled "Trading" details the fifty percent suggestion. If you think it deserves increased prominence, I encourage you to edit it yourself. Them's my six cents. --Zombiejustice 17:16, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

afaik, traders will accept any profit, as long as they're not annoyed and also as long as you're not trying to buy 'high-tech' items like steel anvils or bars, with 'low-tech' items such as poorly crafted pieces of stone, bone etc Twiggie 17:58, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

Elves and dead stuff

it seems elves will make counter-offers for dead stuff, like totems, bone and shell crafts... needs to be fixed imo Twiggie 18:00, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

Adamantium in trade window

I've just noticed that Adamantine strands appear in my trade window in purple text despite them not being present at the depot and marked for trade. I'm fairly sure that this is something to do with mandates from the nobles (my broker has forbade the export of adamantine) but I can't find any mention of this on the Wiki, any thoughts? Extar 21:55, 5 September 2008 (EDT) I did a bit more testing and the purple text is clearly to do with export bans, I'll add it to the mandate page. Extar 22:02, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

They are selling dead animals?!

I don't know if this is because my fortress is in the freezing tundra, but all caravans offer me cages with dead, butcherable corpses inside. I don't complain about this: There's no additional charge for them, and so I get free meat, fat, skins and bones. Does this happen in other biomes, too? --Doub 09:43, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

We're currently chalking this occurrence up to the trade animals being transported across a biome that is dangerous for them by the merchants, though it should be noted that animals in cages die only under certain circumstances while on any given map. More than likely, however, this is related to the persistent creature-gen bug that causes maimed or crippled creatures to spawn on the edge of maps. --FJH 00:15, 26 February 2009 (EST)

Carvan over ?

Can someone please help me, I need to know if caravans can travel over traps in the latest version, and also if the people will get caught in them and die, and could whoever tests this please do it with all types of traps, not just one. Thank you in advance. Destor 15:57, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

They have no problems with stone traps, cage traps, or weapon traps in my experience. :) Until the King started requesting them before he'd show up, I didn't bother with roads. I just paved the way to the edge with traps. One catch is that creatures who fall unconscious (and maybe randomly some dogs) will get caught in the traps. -Fuzzy 19:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Inaccessible Depot

What happens if a caravan arrives and you have no accessible depot at all? Do they pass you by? Do they wait around offscreen to give you a chance to build or expose one? My depot is underground, accessible only by a drawbridged path. I'd prefer to keep the bridge up (which means no access, foot or wagon), until I need it, but I don't want to miss a caravan.
Also, what happens if, after the traders enter the map, the depot they are heading to becomes inaccessible? I could put a sacrificial depot outside to draw them in, then seal it up after opening my secure depot.--Macdjord 15:43, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

I don't have first-hand experience with this, but I would say the second option is your best bet.^[Verify] Plus, you could make the second depot bait for a monster trap somehow. Just be sure that the traders can't get to the bait-depot by the time they get near it, or they'll unload there, and you'll have to haul the additional distance. RomeoFalling 16:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

I've had a few caravans show up before I get a Trade Depot going a few times, because I have a tendency to over-engineer and get sidetracked. The text claims they 'bypass your inaccessable site', but when in all the times I've done this, they hang around a while and if I quickly build a Trade Depot, they'll happily come over and trade with me as though nothing ever happened.

While I can't be certain if a caravan will behave the exact same way if the depot is inaccessible instead of nonexistent, I'd be willing to bet that's the case. --ThunderClaw 16:53, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

I seem to remember that it's only the wagons that bypass you; traders using mules or other animals will stick around for a while, giving you a chance to build a depot.

As for a "sacrificial" depot, I suspect that'll give them pathing freakouts, and they won't switch course to the "real" depot once the fake one is disassembled. I had a depot with a very narrow and twisty path once (there just happened to be one from the edge of the map), but when a large caravan with lots of wagons showed up, two of them got stuck in a dead end or something and never made it to the depot. They only let you trade once everyone's arrived, so the entire caravan left without trading anything.

One thing you could try is keeping locked doors behind your depot to keep dwarves from going through it. When the traders show up, unlock the doors so you can do business; when the siegers show up, raise the bridge.--Maximus 18:32, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

I already plan to keep it locked off from the fortress when not in use. The thing is, if anything goes wrong with my stockpiles, things end up being left in the depot between traders. If it's accessable at all times, I'm liable to see thieves raiding it.

--Macdjord 13:29, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Put a few wardogs on restraints in the access tunnel. Restraints don't block wagon access.--Maximus 18:36, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Locking them In

What happens if you trap traders in the depot area and they want to leave? Does it count as attaching them? If the goblins show up, I have to to seal the bridges, whether the traders are gone or not.
--Macdjord 17:23, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

As long as the traders don't go insane from you delaying them, you're most likely fine. That said, it'd probably behoove you to let them out regardless of the danger. If they have guards, the guards will go to town on the goblins. If they don't, they get slaughtered and you can claim everything they were holding, guilt-free.

--ThunderClaw 17:39, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Emotioal guilt or political guilt? Doesn't a vanished caravan damage political relations even if I didn't kill them?

--Macdjord 17:42, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

I was referring to political guilt. It's possible that it does, but I have never noticed an ill effect, even though I've had about a half-dozen caravans meet their untimely end going to or from my fortresses. So if it does, it's minor, and a lot less inflammatory than doing it yourself.

--ThunderClaw 17:44, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Hmm... If you attack a caravan and slaughter them all, leaving none to report what happened, does that count as 'vanishing mysteriously'? After all, there's no-one to say you did it.

--Macdjord 13:00, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

What if just drowned them all? The fallout should be the same as if they get killed by goblins: you haven't actually "attacked" them, they get killed by the "environment". Mattkorz 16:45, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

But this work in two way : The mountainhomes / human capital will know that your fortress was the last one visited, and won't know that merchants has been killed by "goblins" or "the environnement".

Also, I'm pretty sure that in current version (0.28.181.40d), killed merchants DO damage political relations : My immigration (along with merchants visits) stop for one or two year after a dwarven caravan has been attacked, and human sieged me when their diplomat died in an ambush. Timst 05:50, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Barge

I have a pic of traders floating down a brook. The Z-level below shows the water at a solid 7 deep everywhere.

There are plenty of paths to my depot (including a bridge across the brook). I was wondering if anybody has seen anything like this before. --KValthaliondil 20:16, 5 November 2008 (EST)

That's just a wagon. It's possible they spawned right in the valley the brook goes through, in which case they'd have to travel along it until they reached open land. If it was a river, they couldn't have traveled along it, but brooks are different from rivers in that they are traversible by land-based creatures.--Maximus 01:22, 6 November 2008 (EST)

Brook tiles can be walked on AFAIK, so a trader will treat a Brook as he would a 3-tile wide road. Also cmp. http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Brook Samyotix 09:19, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Thinking about it a bit further, it's probably no accident they came up the brook: brook tiles are always free of boulders, so it may have been the only unobstructed path to your depot.--12:56, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Multiple Depots

Has anyone ever built two Depots and had the caravan split into each one? What happens? --RomeoFalling 09:08, 6 November 2008 (EST)

Never had them split. The traders always pick one or the other, although the hauling of goods does mean that you may wind up with one Deport filled with goods that you're just not going to be able to sell. It might be interesting to try this in situations where one deport is made inacessible after the traders show, or where multiple civilizations are trading with you. -Fuzzy 15:41, 6 November 2008 (EST)

The merchants will generally choose whichever depot is closer. I'm not sure what would happen if one is abruptly made inaccessable after the merchants show, though. That's an interesting idea. Generally, multiple depots are only useful if you want the option of making the caravan wait outside, which can be helpful if you want their guards' assistance during an attack. I've never had a situation where multiple civs are trading with me at the same time. Caravans tend to only hang out for about a month in the season they typically show up. --ThunderClaw 15:49, 6 November 2008 (EST)

I have also never had multiple civs show up. I had the idea when one of the elf merchants decided to go the long way around my fortress, and through my trap labyrinth. I came up with the idea of a "bait depot," which becomes blocked off when I open the drawbridge to my trader's entrance and depot. Only, I worry what would happen if one or more of the traders got in there. --RomeoFalling 19:08, 6 November 2008 (EST)

Elven caravans always arrive in Spring, human caravans always arrive in Summer, and Dwarven caravans always arrive in Autumn. Apparently, though I haven't tested this personally, the only season in which two caravans can arrive is Autumn, and that would require goblin or kobold traders to come at that time along with the dwarves. I'm pretty sure kobolds don't have caravans, so that looks to be something that's not very likely (if at all possible) without modding in additional entities. --Navian 19:46, 6 November 2008 (EST)

Nope, not just Autumn. I had elves and goblins trading with me at the same time. When I went to trade it asked me who I wanted to trade with before going to the trading screen. --Juckto 22:23, 6 November 2008 (EST)

The multiple civilizations trading was because I was playing a modded game, specifically the Civilization Forge one. At one point, I had three different civilizations trading with me. The game pops up a screen with the list of civilizations trading and asks you to choose from them. Surprised me, because I could have sworn there was a situation with a trapped Elven caravan in an unmodded game where the incoming Human caravan refused to leave the edge of the map until the Elves left. -Fuzzy 12:17, 7 November 2008 (EST)