40d Talk:Appraiser

Trading & Gaining Experience

So is experience gained quicker through single large transactions, that is trading loads of goods and clearing out the caravan in one transaction, or is offering more smaller transactions a better way? I've not been able to tell any difference so far but it seems reasonable that one way would be better. Extar 19:47, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

I've noticed that actual trades do not affect the Apprasial Skill. Instead, When the Broker actually goes to the depot when the Merchants are there, the skill increases. It seems like when I start a new fortress, if I use a dwarf without appraisal skill, he'll already have Dabbling Appraiser before I actually trade goods. Anyone else notice this? --Wahnsinniger 12:58, 19 November 2007 (EST)

I thought the appraiser skill was only really used to be able to see the price of the goods when you trade? Thus, it doesn't have much use in itself, it's simply pretty neat to actualy know accuratly what you're trading for and against in term of price. --Eagle of Fire 13:50, 19 November 2007 (EST)

I have noticed this as well. Further, it appears that only the first dwarf to examine a given set of trade goods will gain skill. --

I think the statement that "Selecting items to trade doesn't give skill" is incorrect, and actually is giving skill. I recently selected a whole slew of items with my non-legendary mayor/trader, but noticed I didn't have enough to afford all the caravan's goods so backed out of the trade window... then I noticed he just hit legendary. I could be mistaken and he had already been legendary before he got to the depot, but I'm fairly sure he wasn't.[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 19:35, 1 December 2007 (EST)

Rule 1 - never apply "reason" or "logic" or "common sense" to DF. It's a trap! Appraise is gained solely when the first designated Broker opens the trading screen, and those goods are seen for the first time. Doesn't have to actually "examine" them one by one - it all immediately comes crashing down for that one dwarf, and only them. Multiple transactions are the way to improve other broker skills, and if trading away items is no obstacle, you can keep pyramiding your trades, trading for your own goods back and again and again, until you make one final 5- or 6-figure trade and call it good. But Appraise is one-shot, done when that screen is opened the first time.--Albedo 19:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Appraiser & Bookeeping

Are we sure that bookkeeping gives appraiser experience? Because I have a new bookkeeper in training, and she hasn't gained any appraiser skill. --User:Strangething, unsigned

You are correct; it does not give that experience. --Savok 17:48, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

I just got into dwarven economy mode on a fortress of mine, and it seems that my shops are owned by appraisers. Is this a coincidence? --Kim Bruning 19:56, 1 December 2007 (EST)

Do you mean that the shopkeepers happen to be dwarves that already has appraisal, or that the shopkeepers gained the appraisal skill?--Karlito 20:43, 1 December 2007 (EST)

Shopkeepers gain appraisal skill, apparently.--Albedo 19:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

need goods?

My broker wouldn't go to the elves to trade until all the goods were there, but I had already traded by enabling anyone can trade. do they only go when all the goods are there, and why does anyone can trade make a difference? btw I don't keep all can trade on ever, only when I need it, and my broker had no job at all to do.--Destor 21:12, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

I think you can go to trade at any point after the caravan "starts unloading its goods". If all the traders haven't arrived yet, however, they'll tell you, "we're still unloading". I'm not sure why you experienced that problem... maybe you have the "trader requested" on the wrong setting? The way it says "t: trader requested" makes it seem like you have to hit t to make the request, but whatever is showing at the moment is what you are requesting.--Maximus 21:31, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

It seems that the Bring item to depot job has higher priority than the Trade at depot one. However, once a broker has started the Trade job, (s)he will be unconcerned by any additionnal good hauling request.--Aykavil 10:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Identical goods?

Is it verified that goods with different prices - especially by 20 - are in fact identical? That pig tail rope that goes for 80 instead of 60 (fake numbers, except for the 20) may look to be just another (normal quality) "pig tail rope", but if you actually look at the details, I've often found that the one for 80 was dyed. --Shurhaian

I, too, suspect this is what's really going on, and that Appraisal skill above Novice is entirely meaningless (probably a holdover from the 2D days when the Broker was an immigrant Noble which didn't even have any skill levels to begin with). --Quietust 03:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I have a new appraiser I'm training - when they get to 1, I'll run some tests. Other users are encouraged to as well - more data, more data! SCIENCE!--Albedo 19:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Experience question

The article states "However, the skill is learned very fast from just looking at goods in the trade window, even for a no-skill dwarf." I don't think this is true. I am late in the game (15 game years) and produce a lot of trade items that I prefer to export to keep the game speed up. I had over thirty bins full of master rock goods and probably over fifty roast stacks, some over 20k in value. I had the anyone can trade selected, and the tax collector (no previous skill as an appraiser) came to trade. I traded all the goods away, but at a massive loss, since I wanted to get rid of the items. I checked the skill of the tax collector afterwards and he wasn't even dabbling. Can someone verify that simply looking at the goods increases the skill? I think skill must be in the trading ratio. --Kwieland 23:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I just ran the same test - elf caravan came, and I Activated all my previous Brokers Appraisers into military duty (so they wouldn't respond), and selected "Anyone can trade". My Cook (no Appraise skill) showed up. One click into the trade, he had 333 experience in Appraise (according to dwarf therapist). After trading all the stuff, he still had 333. Not sure what happened with your Tax Collector, unless, somehow, he wasn't the first one to show up? --Albedo 00:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't know why unless the >$550,000 somehow was over a limit or something. Like I said, I had TONS of stuff to trade. What if another dwarf showed up, then was interrupted by going to drink or something. I would think it is the dwarf that is active when the trade window is brought up.
What do you think the 333 was based on? Number of "new" items? I haven't used dwarf therapist before, but I guess you could save scum and see if it depends on the amount of stuff (or actual value) of the items they bring or simply the amount of different things the traders bring. Maybe with the new version I'll play with it some more. --Kwieland 16:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The experience is, I believe, based on the number of separate items brought by a caravan (a bin w/ 10 leather = 11 items), and then that's multiplied by a randomized number. More items = more experience. I don't think the items traded away matter, but the number of trades (and/or trade attempts) do improve some of the other broker skills, so one massive trade is "one trade" - you could, in theory, go from no "other" Broker skills to Legendary in one sitting, if you kept trading back and forth for your own stuff, constantly offering about 140% of the value of each, then buying back all the small stuff and doing it again and again. No limit on that.--Albedo 16:16, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I see. I recently traded 2,500,000☼ and the experience in appraisal for the dwarf trading went from proficient to adept (or something similar). It didn't make them legendary, even though there were over 1000 items traded away. I remember previous games in which I had caravans show up with much fewer items and made a dwarf legendary in appraisal (from no skill) in one go. So I guess the random number was high in that case. Perhaps as you say, it is only based on the number of items the traders bring. I guess my main question is how to maximize the amount of appraisal experience that a dwarf gets from trading? --Kwieland 20:41, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm 99% sure that it's not "perhaps" - it is dependent on the # of items that the Trader brings, which means there is no way to maximize it, it's a flat amount. Think about it - your dwarfs know the value of your stuff - they don't have to appraise that. If a dwarf went from zero to Legendary there must have been a MESS of items that the Traders brought - or a bug.--Albedo 15:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Follow up - Okay, just had an Elven Caravan with 94 items (7 screens of 13 each + 3 more). Saved the game, and ran thru 5 different dwarves assigned as Broker each with ZERO starting Appraiser experience. Timing, random events different (harpy attack between save and trade). Each time, each dwarf, 349 Experience. Now, intuitively, I want to say that it should be 3.725 experience per item (30 exp/8), but 94 x 3.725 = 350.15, or ~1 exp too much for that theory - but it seems very consistent, and very close to that math. Didn't notice any aberrant items that would make sense to be an exception to Appraisal, except perhaps a single wild animal (macaque) cage. But 93 x 3.725 = 36.4+ - so I don't know where that math leaves us. Except "close", which is not completely satisfying.--Albedo 04:45, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

(Edit - later experiments with other trading seems to support that math - experience consistently seems to be just less than 3.725 x # items brought by the caravan.)--Albedo 19:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into that. Have you noticed any broker skills changing with trading? The article suggests that conversational skills can be learned via trading.--Kwieland 16:57, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I think to answer your original question about why didn't your tax collector get exp, I suggest that someone else beat him to it and got the exp, then wandered away to eat/drink/sleep before you noticed him. I'd say coincidence. --Waladil 03:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

There is something else going on here. I've seen two caravans so far, and upon inspection, precisely 0 of my dwarves are even *dabbling*. That is, no dwarf even has record of an appraisal skill. I definitely interacted with both caravans and even made (possibly terrible?) trades to both. 129.2.164.85

Were you using "any dwarf can trade", or did you assign the position of Broker and then let that dwarf do the trading? --Quietust 23:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)