- v50 information can now be added to pages in the main namespace. v0.47 information can still be found in the DF2014 namespace. See here for more details on the new versioning policy.
- Use this page to report any issues related to the migration.
Difference between revisions of "User talk:Lethosor"
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I've also noticed that the rating script tab appears at the top of pages that it shouldn't, such as [[Special:RecentChanges]]. That's a pretty minor bug, but if you're changing it anyway and it's easy to fix... --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 18:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC) | I've also noticed that the rating script tab appears at the top of pages that it shouldn't, such as [[Special:RecentChanges]]. That's a pretty minor bug, but if you're changing it anyway and it's easy to fix... --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 18:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
+ | |||
+ | :I can definitely get that done. The only reason I hadn't was because I didn't want to create future issues with new namespaces, but that's no longer an issue since I made the script into an extension. I'm probably going to implement this as a system message of some kind (and maybe a preferences option as well). Hopefully I can get to these things today or tomorrow. --[[User:Lethosor|<span style="color:#074">Lethosor</span>]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|<span style="color:#092">talk</span>]]) 18:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 18:39, 16 November 2013
Bot requests
Templates
Nice work on the rounded box templates! --Briess 08:07, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, I guess I had a little too much time on my hands. Does the formatting look ok? I think I screwed it up once or twice, but the main page looks all right now. --Lethosor (talk) 13:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Variations
I like your solution to the creature variation problem. It's much simpler than what I had in mind, and, at least for the current batch of creatures, works quite well. Great job! --Loci 20:41, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Duplicated History
Yeah, I noted that as well and decided it wasn't actually a major enough issue worth redoing everything I was doing to the database (since it already took almost 7 hours of lock time :(. If there are other issues, I can revert back, but I'll want to do it before tonightish, so we don't loose a lot of data. --Briess (talk) 01:34, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- And then I changed my mind and reverted. Thanks for letting me know. --Briess (talk) 01:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I rolled back the database maintenance / upgrade because of the issue you pointed out. Thanks for alerting me :) -- Briess (talk) 01:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
As to what just happened: cache collision >.> - Should be fixed now, sorry . --Briess (talk) 01:49, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I thought I was commenting on the wrong page for a second there. Looks good now :) --Lethosor (talk) 01:53, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Rater
Left a note at User_talk:Lethosor/rater.js for you :) --Briess (talk) 07:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Skill tree for DF masterwork
What do you think about adding a new skill tree for the new skills? Could be usefull... TheKevroar (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- You mean like
ru:Lethosor? --Lethosor (talk) 20:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC)Miner Woodworker Stoneworker Ranger Doctor Farmer Fishery worker Metalsmith Jeweler Craftsdwarf Bone carver · Clothier · Glassmaker · Glazer · Leatherworker · Potter · Stone crafter · Strand extractor · Wax worker · Weaver · Wood crafterEngineer Administrator Military General Weapon Axeman · Blowgunner · Bowman · Crossbowman · Hammerman · Knife user · Lasher · Maceman · Misc. object user · Pikeman · Spearman · Swordsman · ThrowerOther Social Broker Comedian · Conversationalist · Flatterer · Intimidator · Judge of intent · Liar · Negotiator · PersuaderOther Other/Peasant Unused Balance · Coordination · Discipline · Druid · Military tactics · Poet · Reader · Speaker · Tracker · Wordsmith · Writer- Yes, I think it could be usefull. TheKevroar (talk) 11:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Flying Spawn Mechanics (RedReign)
Hi, Lethosor,
It appears you made a small modification to what I recently wrote on the DF2012:Flying page. You wrote that it only affects underground creatures, not surface fliers.
However, after doing some !science!, I have discovered that above-ground flying creatures DO, in fact, stop spawning if I wall off every edge tile at every possible z-level above ground.
Obviously there is a conflict with the information we have. I'd like to resolve this, since I spent a lot of time and effort recently working on a project similar to those at Oceanshoots on the forums. I mean this with utmost sincerity - if you are certain that you have only seen the walling-off method to affect underground fliers, perhaps we can find what was different between our experiences, and why we were getting different results. :)
Cheers! RedReign --RedReign (talk) (Signed; use
~~~~
to sign posts)- Ah, I didn't realize you meant using bridges instead of walls (walls can't be built within 5 tiles of the map edge above ground, but will work underground). You're correct, drawbridges will keep creatures from spawning above ground. Sorry about the confusion there. --Lethosor (talk) 13:47, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for help!
Cool, Thanks for the tip on deleting pages! Smakemupagus (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Template use in german translated Wiki
Nice Template the {{av}} I would like to adope it for the german wiki but I am not sure if I have something to change, I hate to change existing Templates on my own. and a complete list of widly used templates that need copy for similar look of translated articles would be nice to. Thanks in advance.
- Most templates on this wiki should work on other wikis. For {{av}} to work, you (or an admin) need to add namespaces to your wiki (
DF2012
,v0.31
,40d
, and23a
are the names we use, but you can change those on your wiki). I can help out with some extra templates if you want, but I'd need an account. --Lethosor (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2013 (UTC)- I will redict your request (may be we sould make it more accessible for poeple will to help), a reqest for for adding the missing namespaces in youre wiki is done, but pending. i have manage to get some templates to work (I realy hate complex wiki templates, so much space for mistakes) but a whole bunch is missing atm. also I not sure If I could replace all masterwork - tattered wich their Meisterwerk - abgenutzt counterparts without breaking some/all template that rely on that. 79.206.195.135 08:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- You have an account now, nick is same, but i haven't to tell your temp passphrase yet. 79.206.195.135 08:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- I havn't find a way to give you your temp passphrase for german wiki, are you avaible via eMail or Teamspeak (can't use skype not safe any longer). 79.242.128.219 12:18, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- I guess you could send me a message on the forums, if you have an account there.
By the way, I'm not very good at German, but I can try helping out with the templates anyway :) --Lethosor (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- I guess you could send me a message on the forums, if you have an account there.
- I havn't find a way to give you your temp passphrase for german wiki, are you avaible via eMail or Teamspeak (can't use skype not safe any longer). 79.242.128.219 12:18, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- You have an account now, nick is same, but i haven't to tell your temp passphrase yet. 79.206.195.135 08:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- I will redict your request (may be we sould make it more accessible for poeple will to help), a reqest for for adding the missing namespaces in youre wiki is done, but pending. i have manage to get some templates to work (I realy hate complex wiki templates, so much space for mistakes) but a whole bunch is missing atm. also I not sure If I could replace all masterwork - tattered wich their Meisterwerk - abgenutzt counterparts without breaking some/all template that rely on that. 79.206.195.135 08:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
AV / Masterwork color scheme
Would you consider adding a unique color scheme to the ArticleVersion template for articles in the Masterwork namespace? Currently they share the same light green color scheme as articles the DF2012 namespace, but I think it would be beneficial to distinguish them visually with their own color scheme. --Loci (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- What color were you thinking of? I was thinking of purple (it's the only scheme I haven't used yet from Template:Quality), but I'm open to suggestions. --Lethosor (talk) 23:39, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I was originally thinking light yellow, but a light purple should work fine. It probably shouldn't be quite as dark as the "Superior" background (the AV box is rather larger, and a dark color could prove overbearing), but bump it towards white a bit and it'd fit with the other colors. --Loci (talk) 18:26, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
This article is about a mod.
color: e4ccff
This article is about a mod.
color: f5e5ff
This article is about an older version of DF.
color: fff5ee
This article is about the current version of DF.
color: f5ffee
I have no idea what I'm doing.
Thanks for the feedback! I have no idea what I'm doing. I've never gotten into editing wikis before and I don't even know if this will reach you correctly. --J. d'Orc (talk) 19:04, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- Masterwork mod: minimize number of leather types. Maximize number of parrot types. XP --J. d'Orc (talk) 02:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- I saw your recent edits to the Masterwork creature pages to move {{av}} after the sidebar. I've incorporated the change into the chunk of text that I blindly copy and paste to make new creature pages. --J. d'Orc (talk) 19:28, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
New template for the Creature page tables
I've made a new template that pulls all the creature information from the raws for inclusion into those creature tables. Let me know what you think: Template:Creature_row --Cdombroski (talk) 18:42, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, because of the number of creatures in the game, dynamically compiling the creature tables will hammer the server with hundreds of requests to generate the page. I suspect this is something that is better precompiled by editors, even though it means slightly more maintenance. --Loci (talk) 19:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Substituting the templates might be a workable alternative, although generating the wiki markup to do so would still take some work:
{{CreatureCurrent table head}} {{subst:creature row|name=Dwarf|namespace=DF2012}}
Tile Name Playable Hostile Food Source Adult Body Size Pet Value (×) Biome Features ☺ Dwarf No No 60000 Not tameable - None
- (This would also require regenerating the creatures page manually whenever the template is updated.) --Lethosor (talk) 01:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I hadn't thought to substitute it. I actually have the wikimarkup necessary ready on my hard drive - yes, I was crazy enough to try it, and it only too about twenty minutes too. Would have been ten if I had written a program to scrub the number values out, but I was lazy...gimmie a sec to upload it on my drive. Resident Mario (talk) 04:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- (This would also require regenerating the creatures page manually whenever the template is updated.) --Lethosor (talk) 01:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Here you go. I might do this myself tomorrow, actually. When I tried to serve it directly onto the wiki the page was understandably non-responsive past about fifteen of these entries (I didn't except the server to break that easily...). Resident Mario (talk) 04:46, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- If we get the rest of this working it looks like HFS creatures should probably still be done by hand as they're not specific creatures but rather categories. --Cdombroski (talk) 12:59, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
With a few modifications...
...I'm so using this :) Resident Mario (talk) 04:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- Wow, I completely forgot about that. :) I think I fixed the problem with the misaligned "D", so go ahead and use it if you want. --Lethosor (talk) 12:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
Bot test
Hello! --LethosorBot (talk | Lethosor | talk) 19:32, 28 July 2013 (UTC) (minor edit) (bot edit)
Hi there! I'm quite new to the wiki editing scene and I don't know how to modify the dropdown menu which is at the ending of every article in the buildings section for MDF.... I'd like to ad the category "Vanilla" to the dropdown menu... Maybe you can help me, Thanks in advance!!
--TheKevroar (talk) 23:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
- That's a template — it's included in the article in the place of {{buildings}}, which makes it easier to add the box to an article without copying and pasting the entire thing. Normally the template you'd edit would be located at Template:Buildings, but this is a weird template that redirects to a different template based on the article's namespace. The actual template you'd need to edit is Template:Masterwork buildings — feel free to try adding links, and I'll help you fix them if it doesn't work. (Also, don't worry about creating a lot of new pages — I can get a bot to do that.) --Lethosor (talk) 00:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for your quick answer. I will try to complete the buildings section for MDf in the next few weeks... This will help me a lot. TheKevroar (talk) 21:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Page requests
Regarding this edit comment, perhaps some clarification or an example request is in order.--Loci (talk) 19:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Darn. I know why that happened - I'd re-organized the pages to be displayed above the editing area (on a separate wiki), but only the templates imported correctly, and I forgot to re-import the other pages. -_- --Lethosor (talk) 19:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
version switch
Your bot seems to have wiped out a number of page differences in applying this update. Examples include:
- Buildings, where {{interwiki|{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}{{Category|Buildings}} was removed
- Creatures, which had been updated to avoid template loops and pass in a categorization parameter
- Vermin, which had been similarly updated
I suspect a number of the others also had "peculiarities" which were similarly discarded.--Loci (talk) 19:36, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for re-adding the category parameters — I only checked a couple of the templates, to make sure they were working, and I must have overlooked those. (I'll try to be more careful with my bot edits in the future.) I re-added {{Interwiki}} to {{Buildings}}, but I think {{Category|Buildings}} should ideally go on the version-specific building templates (which is what {{Masterwork buildings}} does), or possibly somewhere in {{version switch}} (e.g.
{{Category|{{ucfirst:{{{1}}}}}}}
, which would eliminate the need to insert {{Category}} into all of the navboxes).
By the way, what "template loops" are you referring to? I don't remember seeing any issues with vermin/creature pages (although they could have been cached when I checked). --Lethosor (talk) 21:36, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Raw ripping
Several questions about things I'd like to implement (check my userpage for current progress):
- Don't those fancy scripts increase traffic cost and such?
- Bulk upload images for workshops, doable?
- I'm currently working on images-from-raws script. Is it possible to use actual graphic tiles?
- In perspective, script should take every possible information from raws. For workshops it would be: keybind, components, profession, size, reactions, maybe even input and output. Which as well opens the way for such a glorious implementations as: workshop of profession list, output/input to workshop list, workhop|keybind|components table etc. With less possible tedious editing required. Any thoughts on the matter? --Asva (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
- > Don't those fancy scripts increase traffic cost and such?
- They do increase the time it takes to generate pages, especially if they pull a lot of raws from the server. Fortunately, they're usually cached once they're generated, so it doesn't have too much of an impact on the server. However, you should avoid including extremely large raws - Masterwork:Golem is an example of this.
- > Bulk upload images for workshops, doable?
- It would be hard. There are some file upload extensions on MediaWiki, but nearly all of them are unstable. There's a PHP script that can accomplish this, if you have access to the server (which I don't). Also, there's the possibility that images might change, which would require re-uploading some of them.
- > I'm currently working on images-from-raws script. Is it possible to use actual graphic tiles?
- Tilesets are much easier than graphics sets, since graphics sets require looking up information about each image. I've managed to make an extension that can display images with tilesets in-browser (with JavaScript), so that's definitely possible. Using the MDF tilesets would take more effort, since they use transparency, but it shouldn't be too hard (assuming I can figure out the composition algorithms).
- > In perspective, script should take every possible information from raws. For workshops it would be: keybind, components, profession, size, reactions, maybe even input and output. Which as well opens the way for such a glorious implementations as: workshop of profession list, output/input to workshop list, workhop|keybind|components table etc. With less possible tedious editing required. Any thoughts on the matter?
- This sounds like it would be really useful, but I haven't figured out a way to do it yet (wiki syntax is challenging, especially once you start nesting 20+ templates). It should be possible, though, as long as all of the information is in the raws somewhere (it's easiest if it's all in the same file, since DFRawFunctions only works with one file at a time).
- Actually, maybe something like this could be used to generate images for workshops, instead of uploading pictures of every one. It would be really nice to reduce the amount of template editing needed to supply basic information about workshops (and other types of pages, like iron.)
- So, in summary, extracting more information from the raws is possible. It would be hard, especially once you try formatting it, but it's definitely possible.
- --Lethosor (talk) 14:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
> you should avoid including extremely large raws
Hm, that may be troublematic. In worst case it's possible to make shorter versions of raws.
> used to generate images for workshops
Currently working on that :P. Included Template:Tile and such in script to avoid long long nesty template chains. Function takes workshop TILE values, transforms them into UTF-8 code, and presents neatly. Shall add coloring in nearest future.--Asva (talk) 14:48, 7 September 2013 (UTC)- BTW, how do you make mediawiki show ☺ -like unicode symbols?
Padding issue. With no way to insert line breaks from template, I get either this or that. Any way around you possibly know?
- Nevermind, did it by xHTML. Script is fully operational and ready for testing.
- Here is another problem. Table works fine in most cases. But when borders are missing (check incomplete building), the alignment messes up true location of tiles. Any helpful ideas, by chance? Here is the table config I use: <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="font-size:150%; font-family: 'Courier New', 'Quicktype Mono', 'Bitstream Vera Sans Mono', 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans Typewriter', monospace; font-weight:bold">
ò ╖ ▌ ▌ ╒ ╖ ▌ ò ╚ ▌ - The source code is nothing but html... But oh, well.
- I managed to fix those empty spaces. What I did is just exchanged tile "32" from conversion table with no-break space ( ).
- Though, I still can't fiqure the way to get rid of borders at top and bottom of tiles.
- On a different matter. Played a bit with tilesets. Seems, no javascript is required:
Arrow:
Bush:
Something:
2,3,1:
Though the padding is a bit weird. Somewhy for "arrow" and "2" it is not dividable by 16. --Asva (talk) 11:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm almost done. Here's the result. And that's how it looks after I save the page =.=. Same syntax as before. --Asva (talk) 14:28, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Wow, nice work. A few things I've noticed about the tiles, though - they don't seem to support non-square tilesets or different foreground colors. :( Personally, I'd prefer to use JavaScript for this (assuming I can get transparency to work) but the CSS works a lot better than I expected.
(And by the way, the "Close" button at the bottom of the pull request is probably what you're looking for.) --Lethosor (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- > support non-square tilesets
- Probably fixaeble. Non square big tiles can be squarified. That will make messy code even messier...
- Foreground colors? You mean, for monochrome tilesets? I don't think supporting these would be of any merit. For workshop articles, ascii and graphic tiles are plenty. Only implementation - would be tricky option, allowing any user to chose his favorite tileset from list.
- Surely, clean javascript would suit much better.
- PS Thanks for github editing and supportive information. --Asva (talk) 18:41, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- I was referring to the text color - for example, the background color of the numbers above (2,3,1) can easily be changed to red, green, and blue, but the colors of the numbers themselves are still white (I'm not even sure if it's possible to do this in CSS, although it could be). You're probably right about workshops not needing them, though.
- > allowing any user to chose his favorite tileset from list
- Definitely possible with an extension (could be added in Special:Preferences somewhere, for example), although it would require at least some JS to modify the CSS appropriately. --Lethosor (talk) 19:05, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm talking about graphics sets. You can't possibly change color without turning them into monochrome+alpha. Which is weird and probably bothersome.
- While for tilesets the idea is valid.
- While working on items I encountered tags like FIRE_BUILD_SAFE, NEEDS_MAGMA, WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY. Don't you have an idea, how those can be put in workshop or item template without taking too much space?
- About huge tables (f.e. workshop | buildmat | tiled image | build profession). Is it possible to make them editable only by your bot? Like, simply update once new version arrives? Otherwise large tables may hurt server costs.
Hi. I remade the previous script a bit. Now it uses global array of objects. Which means, to get any output you'll have to (pseudocode warning):- {{load files}}
- {{process files}}
- {{output files}}
Beforehead, I passed all data for every function just to avoid excessive file loading. Was hectic, hard to debug, hard to process. As for now, stuff seems much brighter. For instance, I can make {{show me errors}} wiki template without much ado.
So, back to globals, is it a good idea (safety-wise)? Won't it break something?
BTW, I decided on quietust's functionality. I'll left it intact. Won't touch a thing. I'll use only one parser template, which is {{#df:}}. Approved, sir?--Asva (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
ArticleVersion bug?
The updated ArticleVersion template seems to believe Dwarf Fortress Italia is in the 40d namespace. --Loci (talk) 19:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
- That's because there was a redirect created when I moved 40d:Dwarf Fortress Italia to the main namespace. I don't know of any way to resolve redirects from a template, so I just removed {{av}} from the article altogether. --Lethosor (talk) 20:21, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
New Push Page
Hey man I wanted to create a page about the default "push" attack creatures have, as its not always clear what that attack is. I thought I'd put some concrete into about it and a list of creatures that use it by default. I made the page and added content, but I really have no idea what I'm doing such as how to add that version box for what version of DF its for how to add it to the df2012 namespace...whatever namespace is. And how to see a list of categories. Internal links to creatures also will not work. I thought creating a page would be easy, apparently not.
Also is it ok to link to things like my Amazon Writing profile on my talk page? I just wanted to put something about me there and what I do.
Thanks. Hope you're liking my edits.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Push
- I took care of the namespace and link problems - you just add "DF2012:" to the beginning of the title to create a page in the DF2012 namespace. The link issue was a result of capitalization - MediaWiki treats the entire article title as case-sensitive except for the first letter.
- Anyway, putting up links to your other profiles on your user page is fine with me (as long as they're not super-promotional or inappropriate), and some other users have done things like that too. --Lethosor (talk) 20:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Great, thanks for fixing it. I didn't realize it was that easy. and i didn't know about the case sensitive thing either I'll keep that in mind.
And thank you I will then. I've done plenty of writing :) Proudnerd (talk) 00:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Rating script bug
It appears the new rating script is stripping returns when it rearranges ArticleVersion templates (example). This can lead to page layout problems. Can you revise the rating script to retain the returns?--Loci (talk) 19:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- I did manage to fix the second example you listed in the script with a recent update, which was caused by accidentally retaining spaces (see this edit), but I'll try to make it work with the source code better. Thanks for pointing out the first example, too – I hadn't thought of that as a possibility. --Lethosor (talk) 20:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- Just to point out, your test didn't have any spaces after the {{av}} template. But, beyond spaces, a number of special characters (such as ":") could probably still cause problems if they end up attached to the beginning of a paragraph. You could probably just add an extra return after the av template line to prevent most problems.--Loci (talk) 20:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- The rating script is apparently still stripping newlines: Native aluminum Bismuthinite. --Loci (talk) 15:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- This should be fixed now. (I actually fixed this about an hour ago, but I didn't save the fix to the branch used on this wiki -_-) This wiki automatically fetches updates for the rating script, so it should probably be updated in an hour or less (the new version that should appear on Special:Version is 1.0.2). --Lethosor (talk) 18:13, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks! ...But now the script is inserting an extra newline each time the page is rated [1]. This may lead to content creeping down the page until the newlines are manually removed. Is it possible to only add newlines when rearranging the page templates? --Loci (talk) 20:53, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Wow, thanks for noticing that! Right now the {{quality}} replacement is using a single regex, and I fixed the last problem by changing \s to a space. Apparently I forgot that this was the reason it included newlines in the first place. I'll fix this when I can (hopefully in the next couple of days). --Lethosor (talk) 21:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I've also noticed that the rating script tab appears at the top of pages that it shouldn't, such as Special:RecentChanges. That's a pretty minor bug, but if you're changing it anyway and it's easy to fix... --Loci (talk) 18:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- I can definitely get that done. The only reason I hadn't was because I didn't want to create future issues with new namespaces, but that's no longer an issue since I made the script into an extension. I'm probably going to implement this as a system message of some kind (and maybe a preferences option as well). Hopefully I can get to these things today or tomorrow. --Lethosor (talk) 18:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)